"Quentin Tarantino Phenomenon" -- The Great White Hope

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Black Ice
One question to all you Tarantino worshipers:

Scenario:
Kill Bill, same movie, frame by frame, but with all Asian cast and produced and directed by a Asian company and director.

Question:
Will you all still so be crazy about this movie? Will you all call the Asian director a genius? Will this movie still be the most fantastic movie you have ever seen. Be honest, guys.

I've finally figured it out. The very sources where QT steals from most have never received remotely the same celebration as QT himself. Recent great Asian flicks such as Hero and Crouching Tiger although well received have never been as celebrated and worshiped as QT's.

Yeah, QT is the Great White Hope. Finally, we have got ourselves somebody who can output action flicks on the Asian level but, behold, he's white.



Scenario #2:
2 great Asian flicks, Internal Affairs, Full Time Killer. all Asian cast, produced and directed by Asian companies and directors. Not good enough.

Solution:
But it's good enough that WE are going to remake them w/ white cast and white directors.


Scenario #3:
Jazz. Black music, no good.

Solution:
White people started playing Jazz and they make the most money and receive the most celebrity.


Need I say more.

Sorry, guys! I know I am gonna stir a nerve or two.

Cinemaddiction
Scenario # 1 I don't care about, and Q.T., in the directoral sense is far from genius. That's factual.

Scenario # 2 has to do with distribution issues, and the fact that Foreign action films won't sell well here, due to the language barrier. Besides, re-casting popular foreign movies and adapting them to US standards is nothing new.

Scenario # 3 Jazz music is FAR from "black music". The roots of African American music is usually traced back to the blues, with which there is a difference. True American Jazz musicians are few and far between, much less white. Kenny G doesn't count, and Elvis being the only one that really capitalized on it.

What's the point of this? I think you should have boned up before presenting scenarios fishing for other people's input.

Black Ice
#1, You say you don't care. I guess that answered my question.

#2, Nothing to do w/ distribution. Have everything to do w/ the myopic and xenophobic culture of this country. See below:

#3, You say, "The roots of African American music is usually traced back to the blues, with which there is a difference." Totally agree. I know the difference between Blues and Jazz, fan of both, thank you. I did NOT say Jazz is THE black music. You are picking bone. When Jazz was first played, sorry to inform you, it was played by blacks only. It was considered lewd and uncivilized. It was "legitimized" by the racial majority, that was whites, when whites started playing Jazz. Now, that's a historic fact.
Back to #2 above using Jazz as example. In Europe, Jazz has long been celebrated ever since they first got a taste of it oh so long ago when it was only played by blacks. Jazz at that time was every bit foreign to them but they did not exhibit the same myopic and xenophobic attitude toward it as American whites did w/ anything foreign. Now, same goes for films. In Europe and most other countries, foreign movies are NOT such a hard sell. A good movie is a good movie. Nobody will be turned off simply b/c it's foreign. See my point?

p.s., You say, "I think you should have boned up before presenting scenarios fishing for other people's input." I guess you were referring to the Jazz bit. Now I've shown you that I indeed have "boned up before presenting scenarios " (to use your words) can you play nice so we can have a meaningful discussion instead of personal attacks?

WindDancer
Originally posted by Black Ice
One question to all you Tarantino worshipers:

Scenario:
Kill Bill, same movie, frame by frame, but with all Asian cast and produced and directed by a Asian company and director.

Question:
Will you all still so be crazy about this movie? Will you all call the Asian director a genius? Will this movie still be the most fantastic movie you have ever seen. Be honest, guys.

What if the cast were all blacks? Would you still be thrill and hype? I sure would! because unlike you I don't care about race or ethnic background. I'm being honest what kind of bs is this?

Originally posted by Black Ice

I've finally figured it out. The very sources where QT steals from most have never received remotely the same celebration as QT himself. Recent great Asian flicks such as Hero and Crouching Tiger although well received have never been as celebrated and worshiped as QT's.

Yeah, QT is the Great White Hope. Finally, we have got ourselves somebody who can output action flicks on the Asian level but, behold, he's white.

That is the most moronic and ill informed comment I've ever seen! FYI QT helped bring Hero to the American audiences in the big screen. Out of his own pocket he help get the film promoted here in the states. And worship? friggin hilarious!

Originally posted by Black Ice
Scenario #2:
2 great Asian flicks, Internal Affairs, Full Time Killer. all Asian cast, produced and directed by Asian companies and directors. Not good enough.

Solution:
But it's good enough that WE are going to remake them w/ white cast and white directors.


Scenario #3:
Jazz. Black music, no good.

Solution:
White people started playing Jazz and they make the most money and receive the most celebrity.

Need I say more.

Sorry, guys! I know I am gonna stir a nerve or two.

I don't know what all this blah, blah, blah is about and frankly I don't give shit. I saw and love Fulltime Killers indeed a typical Hong Kong action flick. And no! you're not stirring anything. Instead you're displaying your brilliant mind to all us.

Storm
no expression

Don' t bite his/her nose off...

Cinemaddiction
Originally posted by Black Ice
#1, You say you don't care. I guess that answered my question.

#2, Nothing to do w/ distribution. Have everything to do w/ the myopic and xenophobic culture of this country. See below:

#3, You say, "The roots of African American music is usually traced back to the blues, with which there is a difference." Totally agree. I know the difference between Blues and Jazz, fan of both, thank you. I did NOT say Jazz is THE black music. You are picking bone. When Jazz was first played, sorry to inform you, it was played by blacks only. It was considered lewd and uncivilized. It was "legitimized" by the racial majority, that was whites, when whites started playing Jazz. Now, that's a historic fact.

Back to #2 above using Jazz as example. In Europe, Jazz has long been celebrated ever since they first got a taste of it oh so long ago when it was only played by blacks. Jazz at that time was every bit foreign to them but they did not exhibit the same myopic and xenophobic attitude toward it as American whites did w/ anything foreign.

p.s., You say, "I think you should have boned up before presenting scenarios fishing for other people's input." I guess you were referring to the Jazz bit. Now I've shown you that I indeed have "boned up before presenting scenarios " (to use your words) can you play nice so we can have a meaningful discussion instead of personal attacks?

As for Tarantino, and his sources never being celebrated, that's because the true genius of his work is that he finds the diamonds in the rough, makes them his own, and throws it in a pot. The absolute worst films ever are the fabric of his films.

People xenophobia!?! You're off your ****ing rocker. You honestly think people have some fear of foreigners or foreign films? How about being creatures of habit, and the lack of exposure, resulting in subsequent overall disinterest? Nobody is "afraid", besides, plenty of Asian films have found mainstream distribution in the U.S. and enjoyed huge success, i.e. Iron Monkey, Hero, Crouching Tiger. U.S. isn't going to pull Asian action films over here, because the U.S. market is already too saturated with them as it is, regardless of how "good" the foreign counterpart is. And yes, distribution is an factor, because of what I had just said.

Inform me all you want, homeslice. You're the one being prissy and oh so "as a matter of fact"-ual with me. Not once did I insinuate that you DIDN'T know the difference, where as you did with me. I'm well aware that jazz is "black music". Regardless of the "legitimization", not one white jazz player has ever been more widely accepted or popular than Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, or John Coltraine. How many times you ever hear Zoot Sims name come up in conversation? Was HE the "great white hope", the one white jazz musician that ushered in the great acceptance. I hardly think so. Times change, historical fact or not, jazz was big before white people took it up, regardless of who was listening to it.



I see your point, but I think you're still failing to consider the levels of exposure to mediums, the incredible difference in culture, and tons of other factors that seperate countries views when it comes to entertainment. You can't speak for anyone other than yourself, either. A good movie ISN'T always a good movie, and people CAN be turned off because it's foreign. It's you not accounting for personal tastes, and presenting opinion as fact. Bad move.

Play nice? Personal attacks? It's your apparent Anti-American stance, and penchant for controversy that have already angered people. I haven't done the first thing. To avoid conflict next time, maybe you should have shown what you knew as supporting facts, instead of leaving them out? You didn't have much to base your opinions/questions on until I called you out.

WindDancer
Excellent post Cinema thumb up

Bardock42
1# Kill Bill is not that great...Pulp Fiction and Reservoir Dogs were...and the director could have been black, asian, spanish or even.........german......and I wouldn't have minded


2# What are you talking aboot?

3# Depends I either like music or not...I highly doubt that I sudennly like music just cause someone of a different collor creates it.

Sadako of Girth
I have average range in the things I enjoy in Film, Music, Tv...
I love blues from John Lee Hooker through to Stevie Ray Vaughn,
I love Horror movies from Alien through to the Grudge(Jap version)...
I love TV comedy from Blackadder through to Dave Chappell.....
I love....etc You get the point I'm sure...

The only criterea that I ask for is something actually be good....

Im sure that the Asian slant has nothing to do with it really.... Kill Bill was a revenge story pure and simple... Like Death Wish....
It could've been full of whoever directing the parts and it'd still be been
a great friggin movie if the films greatness was emulated to the same prowess as the version we all know and love....

...Which brings my post back home..... Its the works we revere first THEN we respect the director if he deserves it..... Which in my opinion, he does.... His works catalogue commands it...
When he starts bringing out shit movies... I'm sure you'll start to see the buzz going around him slack off...

But right now his fight record is 5-0-0 all by knockout....
THAT is what he is praised for....and rightly so....
If another producer had made Resevior Dogs, Pulp Fiction, Jackie Brown or Kill Bill to the same standard of QT's work or COURSE i'd love it......
'Cause quality work is what it is about....not who made it....
Shit... If Spike Lee had made SW exactly as it was, the boards'd still be as filled with fans, wouldn't it....?!!? As I say. The work, not the Artist.

Fishy
I love this comment

In Europe 99% of the movies are foreign, most of the movies shown here come from the US....

So of course foreign movies sell easier here, its because our movie industry generally sucks smile

Black Ice
Well, I will not reply to this threads anymore b/c I rather not to engage myself in personal attacks. I am being called moronic and such ... I have not call anyone names here no matter what I think about his or her opinion, have I? It's such a common tactic to attack the person when you can't argue on points. I also don't think many of you who has replied read my post clearly to begin with. Think what you might of me.

Sadako of Girth
You didn't read mine then, I take it from your assessment....

Bardock42
Hahah....god this is so pathetic BIce

smoker4
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I have average range in the things I enjoy in Film, Music, Tv...
I love blues from John Lee Hooker through to Stevie Ray Vaughn,
I love Horror movies from Alien through to the Grudge(Jap version)...
I love TV comedy from Blackadder through to Dave Chappell.....
I love....etc You get the point I'm sure...

The only criterea that I ask for is something actually be good....

Im sure that the Asian slant has nothing to do with it really.... Kill Bill was a revenge story pure and simple... Like Death Wish....
It could've been full of whoever directing the parts and it'd still be been
a great friggin movie if the films greatness was emulated to the same prowess as the version we all know and love....

...Which brings my post back home..... Its the works we revere first THEN we respect the director if he deserves it..... Which in my opinion, he does.... His works catalogue commands it...
When he starts bringing out shit movies... I'm sure you'll start to see the buzz going around him slack off...

But right now his fight record is 5-0-0 all by knockout....
THAT is what he is praised for....and rightly so....
If another producer had made Resevior Dogs, Pulp Fiction, Jackie Brown or Kill Bill to the same standard of QT's work or COURSE i'd love it......
'Cause quality work is what it is about....not who made it....
Shit... If Spike Lee had made SW exactly as it was, the boards'd still be as filled with fans, wouldn't it....?!!? As I say. The work, not the Artist.


Most excellent, couldnt have put it better and saves me typing smile

Black Ice
Sorry, Sadako. That's why I edited my post ... I realize that not all of you have called me names ... my statement b4 the edit was too generalize to be fair ... well I was kinda pissed reading some of the replies and posted b4 reading all the replies thoroughly.

Bardock42,

You just did exactly what I am talking about. You have a point, say it. Don't be calling people names! Tell your argument!

Fishy
He has a point, your argument makes no sense he thinks its pathetic, you are seeing Racism into things that have nothing to do with it.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Black Ice
Sorry, Sadako. That's why I edited my post ... I realize that not all of you have called me names ... my statement b4 the edit was too generalize to be fair ... well I was kinda pissed reading some of the replies and posted b4 reading all the replies thoroughly.

Bardock42,

You just did exactly what I am talking about. You have a point, say it. Don't be calling people names! Tell your argument!

I did you didn't react you just said: I am going now cause everyone has a different opinion than me

Black Ice
He doesn't have a point b/c he didn't say it. He simply called me pathetic. That's not the topic of this thread. Rather I am pathetic or not has no bearing. If he thinks I am "seeing Racism into things that have nothing to do with it" say it, but he didn't. He just call be a name. That's not a discussion. That's a attack. How can you have a meaningful exchange of opinion w/ anyone if ALL he says is "you're pathetic."

Fishy
It seems to work for you though because you are now refusing to discuss the topic and our reply's and instead you are focusing on a few people that attacked you.

If you want a debate then debate and don't get hung on because of something like that

Sadako of Girth
To BI: I hear you, but to be fair, he said "This is pathetic" not referring to a judgement on you... Prolly more the pattern of argument...

Bardock42
I didn't call you pathetic


I stated my personal behavior to all your szenarios

If you didn't understand what I mean...here it is again...you see racism where there is no racism
.
.
.
SATISFIED?

Black Ice
Bardock42,

I was referring to your one sentence post: "Hahah....god this is so pathetic BIce." Not your earlier reply. Anyway, I apologize for the confusion. The last few replies were posted back to back rather rapidly.


OK, now I have cleared up some confusions and apologized to the deserved person I will exit now ...to avoid a flame war.

BTW, just to clear one thing up, I didn't intend to stir up anything even I said in the 1st post "Sorry, guys! I know I am gonna stir a nerve or two." I said that only b/c I know that my opion is not popular and that I have anticipated some heated discussions (not personal attacks.)

Sadako of Girth
Its all cool Black Ice... wink Take care... smile

WindDancer
It seems to me that you're not to fond of QT fans. Take a look at another thread you posted with your own comments:

Originally posted by Black Ice
But what bother me is the fact that some people worship him like he is the Cinema God; that he is such a Genius; that he is Original. Oh, give me a break.

So what if his fans admire his work? You have heard of Lucas and Spielberg right?

And it seems fitting to move this discussion to the Tarantino forum...so moving.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Black Ice
Bardock42,

I was referring to your one sentence post: "Hahah....god this is so pathetic BIce." Not your earlier reply. Anyway, I apologize for the confusion. The last few replies were posted back to back rather rapidly.


OK, now I have cleared up some confusions and apologized to the deserved person I will exit now ...to avoid a flame war.

BTW, just to clear one thing up, I didn't intend to stir up anything even I said in the 1st post "Sorry, guys! I know I am gonna stir a nerve or two." I said that only b/c I know that my opion is not popular and that I have anticipated some heated discussions (not personal attacks.)

I still didn't call you pathetic but what you posted in your last post

And what "stirred up" people was not your arguement but basically that you called most americans racist.....

Black Ice
OK, I am back. I claimed down now But still I will not respond to anyone who call me name.

Bardock42,

Apologize again. As I said the last sevral replies have been posted rather rapidly and I admitted that I did get confused. My bad. BTW, if I gave the impression that I think ALL american are racists, then I don't think I have made myself clear. So, NO, it's not my opinion that all American are racists. But racism do exist in OUR (yes, I am an American too, all red, white and blue) culture and I see it in this QT phenomenon. Just to be clear I DON"T think every one who love QT and his movies are racists but there are a certain amount of this elemnet in the whole QT phenomenon.

Need to go to work now. Will continue tonight.

Bardock42
Hmm well I think the QT phenomen is that he made 3 good movies and 2 decent ones and he has a large fanbase...I don't think it is because of his whiteness.....I agree that his Kill Bill movies are not the best and that there were similiar Asian Films but I wouldn'T say that Hero or Tiger & Dragon are comparable (they are way better)

Cinemaddiction
As always, my counterstrike goes untested.

My work here is done, that is, unless I need to close thread.. wink

Black Ice
Just testing. Please ignore.

Black Ice
Actually, I have no problem with QT fans. I am just trying to figure out why QT has got this god like status among a lot of his fans. Why some of his fans even defend QT's shameful and blatant rip-offs of other movies. Do race has a part in it. Yes and no. No, on the individual level, I don't think so . I mean I don't think any of his fans like him b/c he is white. But, yes, I do think so on the social and cultural level, the collect subconsciousness, so to speak.

True, Armstrong is one of the Jazz giants but Sinatra achieved way more future and fame. Kenny G (why is he even in a million year be considered as a Jazz musician I don't know) does way better in fame and fortune than Lester Bowie or perhaps even Miles Davis. The list go on and on and it is not just in the fields of music and films. There is gotta be a reason why so many lesser artists, writers, scientist, etc. who are whites some how can achieve more than their more talented non-whites counterpart.

Cinemaddiction
Originally posted by Black Ice


True, Armstrong is one of the Jazz giants but Sinatra achieved way more future and fame. Kenny G (why is he even in a million year be considered as a Jazz musician I don't know) does way better in fame and fortune than Lester Bowie or perhaps even Miles Davis. The list go on and on and it is not just in the fields of music and films. There is gotta be a reason why so many lesser artists, writers, scientist, etc. who are whites some how can achieve more than their more talented non-whites counterpart.

Big difference. Sinatra was big boom entertainer/singer. Armstrong was a pioneer, and he actually played an instrument, not infront of them. To answer your question, I think it comes down to one thing.

Timing.

periera
Scenario #3:
Jazz. Black music, no good.

Solution:
White people started playing Jazz and they make the most money and receive the most celebrity.


Hmm....is it just me or is Louis Armstrong arguably one of the most famed Jazz musicians in that genre of music?

Sorry, that last theory doesn't quite hold up with me.

Seriously, it's 2005...aren't we done pulling the race card yet?

Black Ice
Of course Armstrong is one of the greatest. However, my point was to compare him w/ , in my opinion, lesser talents who manage to almost always achieve more in terms of $$ and celebrity.

Originally posted by periera
Seriously, it's 2005...aren't we done pulling the race card yet?

I wish it's the case. No shit, it's 2005. But sad enough, racism is still alive and well. I don't think raising the awareness of racism (which one may agree or disagree) is playing "the race card" which has such -ve connotation.

periera
Sadly, yes, racism is alive and well, and it thrives much on statements like yours made in your opening post. Am I calling you racist? Hell no, I don't even know you. However, you made a mass generalization that people wouldn't like Kill Bill had it been an all Asian cast with an Asian director. While I do agree that part of it's attractiveness was it uniqueness I couldn't care less what the race of the director was.

Sorry if I offended you with my "pulling the race card" statement, it wasn't my intention. Trust me, there are few things that infuriate me more than intolerance. But come on, "The Great White Hope"? Don't you see how that could be just a tiny bit insulting?

And pardon what may or may not be perceived by you as unintelligence on my part, but if you wouldn't mind explaining what "-ve connotation" is I'd appreciate it.

Black Ice
Not offended at all. I have my opinion and you have yours. I see thing that most of you don't see. May be I am wrong. May be you're wrong. This is certainly not uniquely my opinion. I have seen other people having the same opinion as mine. Is my first post overly generalized? Well, in retrospect, may be it is. But I still maintain that the spirit of it is not as negative as some of you may perceive.

"-ve connotation" = "negative connotation" "-ve" is shorthand for negative. It's used mostly in the science field. My bad. Force of habit.

periera
No prob, I can't believe my dumb ass didn't recognize that because I've used that shorthand as well. Guess I just wasn't thinking about it. smile

Sorry if I was pissy, I'm kind of still reeling from the "Did Steve Nash win MVP just because he's white" thing.

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