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Heros and villains allowed. No preptime.

um... anti what???

anti monitor bad guy responsible for the Crisis of the Infinite Earths.

oh ya right (no im lost)

you know when DC got Supes too powerful so they decided to erase all of the history? Well Anti-Monitor is the villian responsible for that.

He would lose against the Marvel universe. No doubt

right...sure he would lose. it took a host of most of DC's heroes and villains from all timelines to merely delay him. they even broke them down in categories magic users, energy weilders, EM spectrum manipulators...etc. even after the spectre had stepped in it only inconvenienced him breifly, if it wasnt for lex luthor's uber powerful kid they never would have stood a chance at defeating him. and even though they did defeat him it was only due to the fact that he had no more energy to absorb so im sure he's still out there some where.

unless Marvel is gonna play cheap and bring in someonne who is akin to him like the Beyonder, or LT there is no way they're winning. I mean how do you beat a guy who created his own universe with enrgies he can absorb at his whim? not easily thats how

Indeed when Krona created the monitors by witnessing creation. out The Antimonitor was born he is about 10 billion years old and can absorb power from whole universes. Thats all of Eternity each time he conquers a universe he really is the bomb.

AM has already destroyed countless universes. His own (antimatter) universe was trillions of times bigger than regular positive matter universes in the DC multverse

Yet creating or destroying a universe is nothing to a phoenix avatar. Jean as phoenix of the white crown telekinetically reformed a universe and rewound its timeline to get rid of a possible future. This was done on a whim. This happened in New Xmen at the end of the 'Here Comes Tomorrow ' story arc

The M'kraan crystal when unleashed was momentarily blinking out the multiverse and all its alternate realities. Despite Jean contained this effect and reenergised the energy matrix which held the neutron galaxy in place. She basically held together existence as it was coming apart at the seams. That is one of the highest feats ever achieved by any being in Marvel Comics.

Phoenix was also the being responsible for linking all the alternate realities and universes in the multiverse together. It projected a doorway through each every different reality.

The anti monitor pales in comparison to what jean as the phoenix of the white crown can do. Sorry guys.

to my knowledge phoenix has never created universes, what the hell are you talking about?its easy to destroy a universe when you have all that power but lets see her destroy countless universes with little or no effort. or without having to go to the crux of existence to do it

im probably going out on a limb here but you havent read crisis on infinite earths have you? maybe phoenix with the entire MU at her side could do it, but she'd no match for him all by herself.and only a fool would think other wise......FOOL I SAY!

"to my knowledge"

Exactly to your knowledge. Which is obviously lacking in the necessary areas for you to be debating fairly on this thread. You also cant read Xmen for you to not know that Jean recreated a universe telekinetically, reversed its time to get rid of a future. This was done on a whim. 'Here Comes Tomorrow story arc. New Xmen. Pick up a copy

creating a universe from scratch is totally different from"telekinetically reforming" an already existing universe thats falling apart. a gigantic feat i admit(especially since ive read it) but you said creating a universe is nothing for a phoneix avatar, then i said to my knowledge she hasnt created any universes. so whats the issue here? im not denying that phenix is powerful but not powerful enuff to beat him all by her lonesome

Originally posted by manjaro
creating a universe from scratch is totally different from"telekinetically reforming" an already existing universe thats falling apart. a gigantic feat i admit(especially since ive read it) but you said creating a universe is nothing for a phoneix avatar, then i said to my knowledge she hasnt created any universes. so whats the issue here? im not denying that phenix is powerful but not powerful enuff to beat him all by her lonesome

You've been away Manjaro you've missed all the recent Phoenix threads. Id hav a lil look if i was u. You need to update your knowledge of phoenix. Phoenix is one with all life in the multiverse. Its the primal force of creation. The Phoenix is also the resurrection force. The assurance of life after death in the multiverse. When the Stranger wanted to kill all the other abstract entities in Xmen forever and createa new universe where he was the supreme being he chose the phoenix force to do this. The phoenix is the force that ends all that is and it is the force that creates it again. Read Xmen Forever to find this out. It is for reasons like this that the watcher called the phoenix in power to be second only to the creator. Over the years the phoenixes origins and relationship with jean have been retconned, but never its power.

<<The M'kraan crystal when unleashed was momentarily blinking out the multiverse and all its alternate realities.>>

no offense GS because obviously you didn't write the story arc, but that sounds pretty frickin' lame . . . the whole multiverse AND the alternate realities?? that's essentially infinity and probably IS 0000000000a greater feat than AM's in crisis. no wonder i've never ever liked the xmen . . . or phoenix.

about creating universes though - franklin richards did it quite easily when the need was on him. from what i know of all the characters involved here, AM is still tops though (in a nod to galacticstorm though, my recent knowledge of phoenix IS lacking and perhaps she/it can contend with him) AM was and remains one of the mightiest beings ever created in any comic universe. if you throw all the marvel universe at him though (all the cosmics as well) i don't think AM could win. someone could reform the infinity gauntlet, use the ultimate nullifier and these 2 weapons alone have proven able to destroy universes.

i don't think it's a very fair thread to be honest only because of the explosion of cosmic level beings in the last few years. nowadays characters like AM (capable of destroying/remaking universes) seem to pop up all the time - back in the day though, AM was the man and remains one of my all-time faves.

While others got an upgrade lol, He still is the bomb Originally posted by leonidas
<<The M'kraan crystal when unleashed was momentarily blinking out the multiverse and all its alternate realities.>>

no offense GS because obviously you didn't write the story arc, but that sounds pretty frickin' lame . . . the whole multiverse AND the alternate realities?? that's essentially infinity and probably IS 0000000000a greater feat than AM's in crisis. no wonder i've never ever liked the xmen . . . or phoenix.

about creating universes though - franklin richards did it quite easily when the need was on him. from what i know of all the characters involved here, AM is still tops though (in a nod to galacticstorm though, my recent knowledge of phoenix IS lacking and perhaps she/it can contend with him) AM was and remains one of the mightiest beings ever created in any comic universe. if you throw all the marvel universe at him though (all the cosmics as well) i don't think AM could win. someone could reform the infinity gauntlet, use the ultimate nullifier and these 2 weapons alone have proven able to destroy universes.

i don't think it's a very fair thread to be honest only because of the explosion of cosmic level beings in the last few years. nowadays characters like AM (capable of destroying/remaking universes) seem to pop up all the time - back in the day though, AM was the man and remains one of my all-time faves.

Anti-Monitor would win big time its really stuipd this PF reconn now She is the ultimate force in the mulitiverse second to TOAA yeah right anyway DC is not part of the MU multiverse so yeah and DC is also known to be more powerful then The MU so if Anti-Monitor could destroy the Pre-crisis DCU witch was even more powerful then the current not withstanding some already uber powerful characters like The Spectre, Lucifer Morningstar and the like.

Anti-Monitor will get his ass kicked by LT

Wave hand technique: D

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yet creating or destroying a universe is nothing to a phoenix avatar. Jean as phoenix of the white crown telekinetically reformed a universe and rewound its timeline to get rid of a possible future. This was done on a whim. This happened in New Xmen at the end of the 'Here Comes Tomorrow ' story arc

The M'kraan crystal when unleashed was momentarily blinking out the multiverse and all its alternate realities. Despite Jean contained this effect and reenergised the energy matrix which held the neutron galaxy in place. She basically held together existence as it was coming apart at the seams. That is one of the highest feats ever achieved by any being in Marvel Comics.

Phoenix was also the being responsible for linking all the alternate realities and universes in the multiverse together. It projected a doorway through each every different reality.

The anti monitor pales in comparison to what jean as the phoenix of the white crown can do. Sorry guys.


I agree.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<The M'kraan crystal when unleashed was momentarily blinking out the multiverse and all its alternate realities.>>

no offense GS because obviously you didn't write the story arc, but that sounds pretty frickin' lame . . . the whole multiverse AND the alternate realities?? that's essentially infinity and probably IS 0000000000a greater feat than AM's in crisis. no wonder i've never ever liked the xmen . . . or phoenix.



All that talk on bashing supes and how only older comic fans have respect.Now I see your true colors!

DCU does not count when you talk about the mulitiverse there are more then one multiverses even more then 2 read other comic companies they have there own multiverses PF may have great power here but not in DCU, DCU has more power then MU and since we are talking about Pre-crisis DCU then that would mean that we are talking about even more power then the normal DCU.

phoenix alone could win this.

Phoenix would be one of the first to die WITH the LT.

LT wave's his hand and bye bye Anti-Monitor

MU easily. To many powerful beings, and actully in MU there are beings who alone could take Anti-Monitor down.

Originally posted by kgkg
LT wave's his hand and bye bye Anti-Monitor

yeah and that is coming from the dude who happens to be LT's master so don't try and question him. KgKg or TOAA rocks.

Galactus and Reed could nullify him. With the Nullfier. TOAA could possibly put a stop to him as soon as he sets foot in the marvel universe sensing the instability he would cause. He probably won't get past Eternity or Infinity as well. KGKG is right, LT could also probably put an end to the Monitor.

Antimoniter

Originally posted by leonidas
<<The M'kraan crystal when unleashed was momentarily blinking out the multiverse and all its alternate realities.>>

no offense GS because obviously you didn't write the story arc, but that sounds pretty frickin' lame . . . the whole multiverse AND the alternate realities?? that's essentially infinity and probably IS 0000000000a greater feat than AM's in crisis. no wonder i've never ever liked the xmen . . . or phoenix.

about creating universes though - franklin richards did it quite easily when the need was on him. from what i know of all the characters involved here, AM is still tops though (in a nod to galacticstorm though, my recent knowledge of phoenix IS lacking and perhaps she/it can contend with him) AM was and remains one of the mightiest beings ever created in any comic universe. if you throw all the marvel universe at him though (all the cosmics as well) i don't think AM could win. someone could reform the infinity gauntlet, use the ultimate nullifier and these 2 weapons alone have proven able to destroy universes.

i don't think it's a very fair thread to be honest only because of the explosion of cosmic level beings in the last few years. nowadays characters like AM (capable of destroying/remaking universes) seem to pop up all the time - back in the day though, AM was the man and remains one of my all-time faves.

The M'kraan story is from like... 1978

Originally posted by Mider
DCU does not count when you talk about the mulitiverse there are more then one multiverses even more then 2 read other comic companies they have there own multiverses PF may have great power here but not in DCU, DCU has more power then MU and since we are talking about Pre-crisis DCU then that would mean that we are talking about even more power then the normal DCU.

multiple multiverses? whats the point in calling it a multiverse, then?

It's not really a fair fight. DC is more physical power inclined than Marvel, but that's about all. I wouldn't say they are more 'powerful'. It just seems that every other character in DC can attain near light speeds, and speed kills. Marvel is more cerebral/science based. Psionics and energy wielders more than planet tossing speed demons. They'd take the Anti-monitor.

Just give T'Challa coordinates, a couple hours, and his Cosmic Cube and the comic would be over.

Either that or Doom would steal his powers and become the new Anti Monitor.

thats why an omniverse exists genius and Anti-monitor losing to Eternity how many universes did He destory? You guys make no sense in here Anti-Monitor almost destroyed Pre-crisis DCU the MU would be even easier LT waves His hand and Anti-monitor shoves it up LT's ass and says wave that if you can.

Originally posted by Mider
thats why an omniverse exists genius and Anti-monitor losing to Eternity how many universes did He destory? You guys make no sense in here Anti-Monitor almost destroyed Pre-crisis DCU the MU would be even easier LT waves His hand and Anti-monitor shoves it up LT's ass and says wave that if you can.
how many universe had limitless power , and and total control of it self?

DC universe are just that universe , Marvel Universe is a entied with limitless power.

Anti-Monitor shoves it up his ass? lol

LT waved his hand and beated IG

Anti-Monitor will be killed instantly

Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet could stop the Monitor. Lt easily stopped the IG, I don't see why he couldn't do the same with the Monitor. Good point kgkg.

LT asked for the IG to be given up He never did anything He said a battle for it would destroy the universe just like when Galactus threatend Tyrant Galactus was more powerful then Tyrant but only by a little. And there are other mulitiverses but im sure youve never heard of them alot of you guys limit your reading to DC and Marvel or so it seems.

I'm sensing compatability issues . . .

LT didnt do any such thing so dont make things up.

Originally posted by Mider
LT didnt do any such thing so dont make things up.
Read the comics

Anti-Monitor attacks Marvel Earth results in Earth being wiped out from existence.

Anti-Monitor attacks all of the Cosmic Beings in the Multiverse results in AM being wiped out from existence. Although if Anti-Monitor decided to kill them 1 by 1(like what he did to every universe in DC), Im pretty sure there will be a very high amount of cosmic deaths across the mutliverse before being destroyed himself by the highest tier of Cosmic Beings.

Only TOAA has a chance IMO

Originally posted by Mider
Only TOAA has a chance IMO

Mider you do realise TOAA is Marvels representation of God dont you? That sounded so stupid

Im fully aware of what AM did and is capable of. Yeah he could absorb the energy of universes to add to his own power and blah blah blah. But in the end he got taken out by a single universe. The Pre C Dc one. Jean as the Phoenix of the White Crown taps into a force that is suggested in the comics to be an incarnation of TOAA. Whether you wish to believe that or not. However what is actually stated in the comics and is fact about the force is that it is the primal force of creation(Uncanny Xmen 137) responsible for the creation of not only the universe but existence. This is also supported by recent issues of FF which states that the Phoenix Force is responsible for the creation of the abstract entities as it creates each universe. Eternity also calls it the Resurrection force, the assurance of life after death. In the natural scheme of things the force creates everything and then destroys all that is.

Jean as the top phoenix avatar if need be for the sake of existence can draw on however much of that power is necessary to safeguard existence. AM is very powerful and can absorb the power of universes as he defeats them. Jean can draw upon and harness a force that created and is one with all of creation. He would be no match for Jean.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Mider you do realise TOAA is Marvels representation of God dont you? That sounded so stupid

Im fully aware of what AM did and is capable of. Yeah he could absorb the energy of universes to add to his own power and blah blah blah. But in the end he got taken out by a single universe. The Pre C Dc one. Jean as the Phoenix of the White Crown taps into a force that is suggested in the comics to be an incarnation of TOAA. Whether you wish to believe that or not. However what is actually stated in the comics and is fact about the force is that it is the primal force of creation(Uncanny Xmen 137) responsible for the creation of not only the universe but existence. This is also supported by recent issues of FF which states that the Phoenix Force is responsible for the creation of the abstract entities as it creates each universe. Eternity also calls it the Resurrection force, the assurance of life after death. In the natural scheme of things the force creates everything and then destroys all that is.

Jean as the top phoenix avatar if need be for the sake of existence can draw on however much of that power is necessary to safeguard existence. AM is very powerful and can absorb the power of universes as he defeats them. Jean can draw upon and harness a force that created and is one with all of creation. He would be no match for Jean.

Eternity might beat him , Thanos with IG will beat him

LT will wave his hand and bye bye monitor.

it's not really fair comparing the new cosmics with AM. galacticstorm is right when he says it took only one universe to stop him - but that universe was safeguarded by the monitor's power - a power that was nearly equal to AM's own. based on the recent revelations about phoenix, maybe she could stop him because her power appears to be multiversal. but then, if she IS a force of creation (ie the power that created the multiverse) don't forget AM possessed the power to ALTER that initial primal force. in essence, transposing that power into marvel terms, he'd be able to theoretically affect/change the phoenix force itself.

abstracts like eternity, infinity, et al, have zero chance against him. eternity represents the life force of ONE universe. AM absorbed COUNTLESS universes - or, in effect, countless eternities! LT couldn't wave his hand, kg. LT, like spectre did (precrisis spectre basically WAS LT) could make a fight of it because he too is multiversal. that's the thing here - AM came within a whisper of wiping out the MULTIVERSE!!!! essentially he did so, though what was left was not what he was after. no one in marvel (aside from perhaps phoenix's more recent actions) has ever done anything on that scale. NO ONE. and i suspect no one ever will.

ps - as far as TOAA - is he also multiversal? or does each universe have an incarnation, like each has an eternity? if so, TOAA is toast. if, like LT he IS multiversal, then perhaps he COULD defeat AM) i also don't know if thanos w/IG would beat him. i thought the gems were incarnations of power for THIS universe. at least according to their origins.

Originally posted by leonidas
ps - as far as TOAA - is he also multiversal? or does each universe have an incarnation, like each has an eternity? if so, TOAA is toast. if, like LT he IS multiversal, then perhaps he COULD defeat AM) i also don't know if thanos w/IG would beat him. i thought the gems were incarnations of power for THIS universe. at least according to their origins.

TAOO = Kgkg = GOD

Power over everything God is the creator he would loose against Anti-monitor ? lol


LT serves TAOO and he will easily wave his hand and you know

At the end of day. The Phoenix is the force that creates everything in existence. It is a multiversal force and always has been. It is one of the most powerful forces in any comic book. AntiMonitor was born from a universe. The kind phoenix creates an infinite amount of. He seems to me like a rogue eternity that went around plundering other universes and absorbing their powers. That is very powerful i respect that. However that is nothing compared to the Phoenix force and its most powerful avatar Jean. Think how many universes there are in the multiverse. Theres potentially billions. The force creates billions of eternities basically. Jean exists outside of space and time in the white hot room where all existences universes are represented as small spheres of energy which she can hold in her hand and decide its fate like it is nothing. From here the avatars survey the omniverse and can see potential outcomes. That is how it is decided when the avatars should enter our plane of existence and act. The power to create is far beyond the power to destroy. Phoenix creates all that is. Anti Monitor was born of a universe due to Kronas tamperings. The phoenix is sooo beyond the likes of AM its not even funny.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Mider you do realise TOAA is Marvels representation of God dont you? That sounded so stupid

Im fully aware of what AM did and is capable of. Yeah he could absorb the energy of universes to add to his own power and blah blah blah. But in the end he got taken out by a single universe. The Pre C Dc one. Jean as the Phoenix of the White Crown taps into a force that is suggested in the comics to be an incarnation of TOAA. Whether you wish to believe that or not. However what is actually stated in the comics and is fact about the force is that it is the primal force of creation(Uncanny Xmen 137) responsible for the creation of not only the universe but existence. This is also supported by recent issues of FF which states that the Phoenix Force is responsible for the creation of the abstract entities as it creates each universe. Eternity also calls it the Resurrection force, the assurance of life after death. In the natural scheme of things the force creates everything and then destroys all that is.

Jean as the top phoenix avatar if need be for the sake of existence can draw on however much of that power is necessary to safeguard existence. AM is very powerful and can absorb the power of universes as he defeats them. Jean can draw upon and harness a force that created and is one with all of creation. He would be no match for Jean.

Well said.

"no one in marvel (aside from perhaps phoenix's more recent actions) has ever done anything on that scale. NO ONE. and i suspect no one ever will."

As i said before. The power to create is far greater than the power to destroy. AM went around destroying universes and absorbing their power wow.

You wanna hear a true example of power? The Phoenix created all that is. The multiverse. It linked the multiverse together by projecting a gateway through its entirety. Its avatar Jean has held together the multiverse as it was coming apart at the seams and healed it all. Its avatars survey existence and have at their disposal the power to create or destroy universes on a whim and hold them in the palm of their hand as if they were nothing. They exist beyond time and space only choosing to come down into our plane of existence when something needs to be healed or destroyed for the sake of existence. AM is a being of DC's multiverse who went around absorbing the power of all the universes around him. Powerful as that is that pales in comparison to the Phoenix. That is quite obvious. Also Phoenix was created back in 1979 she is far from a new cosmic Leo.

<<Also Phoenix was created back in 1979 she is far from a new cosmic Leo.>.

true, but this ability to hold the multiverse together is sure as hell new.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Also Phoenix was created back in 1979 she is far from a new cosmic Leo.>.

true, but this ability to hold the multiverse together is sure as hell new.

Incorrect that happened back in Uncanny Xmen shortly after she was created

<<Incorrect that happened back in Uncanny Xmen shortly after she was created>>

really? i have thise issues hanging around but don't recall that. my apologies if such is indeed the case. by the way gs, this is a pretty cool debate.

"the force itself may be, but the power AM came to wield puts him in that class. origins don't matter - power matters. and the phoenix force (as ridiculous as the upgrades have been) is, as i said earlier, likely the only force capable of beating him."

You really dont know much about the phoenix situation do u? The phoenix as originally intended back in 1979 was the primal force of creation second only to TOAA(God). Chris C suggested throughout Uncanny Xmen and Classic Xmen that the phoenix was an incarnation of TOAA in our plane of existence. Jean became one with this force creating phoenix. Jean was Phoenix back then. It was created when Jean burned up in re-entry and she became one with everything as a being of pure thought. TOAA as suggested joined with her at this point and she reformed creating phoenix. Jean was actually dark phoenix.

The phoenix got retconned in '86'. This is when it became a separate being and phoenix wasnt jean grey anymore but a force all on its own which took people as hosts.

The phoenix/jean situation has now reverted to how it was originally. Grant M saw to that. Now the situation is that certain people are born with phoenix potential as the ultimate expression of their mutant powers and they must transcend our plane of existence(usually by dying) and they are then reborn into it as a phoenix avatar.

The power of phoenix has never been changed, been upgraded or retconned in its existence. Only its origins and its relationship with jean and other avatars. However the mess created by the retcon has now been rectified.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Incorrect that happened back in Uncanny Xmen shortly after she was created>>

really? i have thise issues hanging around but don't recall that. my apologies if such is indeed the case. by the way gs, this is a pretty cool debate.

I agree.

You know Galacticstorm you pick up one one X-men comic and you think you know it all Jean Gray was defeated by the X-men im so sure She would be able to defeat the Anti-Monitor by Herself oh and did you forget Her being eaten by The Goblin Force you always talk down to everyone in here as if you know so much just state your ****ing rebuttle and stfu no one shoudl have to put up with your childish insults PF being reconned is pathetic its a force it needs Avatars to function and if the Anti-Monitor showed up it would be destroyed and NO ETERNITY DOESNT HAVE A CHANCE THE IG DOESNT HAVE A CHANCE LT DOESNT HAVE A CHANCE THE ANTI-MONITOR DESTORYED MORE THEN ONE UNIVERSE HOW THE HELL DOES ETERNITY BEAT HIM THE IG HAS POWER OVER ONE UNIVERSE AT A TIME SO DOES LT LT'S GREATEST FEAT IS BEING ABLE TO DESTROY A WHOLE UNIVERSE THATS IT and the Pre-crisis universe had prep time have you ever heard of that? PF cant beat everyone and i dont care what any new X-men comics say from what ive witnessed time and time again the Pheonix Force is not as powerful that it would rival Eternity oh and Galacticstorm you made up shit about The Beyonder calling the PF its almost equal or rival ive read Secret Wars II more then once The Beyonder ***** slaped The PF with out even breaking a sweak and never stated it being more powerful then He was He was never afraid of it He didnt just attack it He walked up to it and just grabed Her making Her go back to Her normal transformation if you knew anything youd know that the orginal Beyonder has powers SEVERAL times that of the multiverse meaning that even TOAA would not be able to handle the original Beyonder thus He was reconned.

Spectre was or should have logically been at full power and at full power He is as powerful as LT if Spectre couldnt take the Anti-Monitor i dought LT could either.

Originally posted by leonidas
it's not really fair comparing the new cosmics with AM. galacticstorm is right when he says it took only one universe to stop him - but that universe was safeguarded by the monitor's power - a power that was nearly equal to AM's own. based on the recent revelations about phoenix, maybe she could stop him because her power appears to be multiversal. but then, if she IS a force of creation (ie the power that created the multiverse) don't forget AM possessed the power to ALTER that initial primal force. in essence, transposing that power into marvel terms, he'd be able to theoretically affect/change the phoenix force itself.

abstracts like eternity, infinity, et al, have zero chance against him. eternity represents the life force of ONE universe. AM absorbed COUNTLESS universes - or, in effect, countless eternities! LT couldn't wave his hand, kg. LT, like spectre did (precrisis spectre basically WAS LT) could make a fight of it because he too is multiversal. that's the thing here - AM came within a whisper of wiping out the MULTIVERSE!!!! essentially he did so, though what was left was not what he was after. no one in marvel (aside from perhaps phoenix's more recent actions) has ever done anything on that scale. NO ONE. and i suspect no one ever will.

ps - as far as TOAA - is he also multiversal? or does each universe have an incarnation, like each has an eternity? if so, TOAA is toast. if, like LT he IS multiversal, then perhaps he COULD defeat AM) i also don't know if thanos w/IG would beat him. i thought the gems were incarnations of power for THIS universe. at least according to their origins.
"AM absorbed COUNTLESS universes "

Living Universes? Nope

"precrisis spectre basically WAS LT" nope Spectre is and always has been powered by God.

<<Anti-Monitor can't do shit. - He beats dead universes. WOW>> yep. they're dead because he killed them.

<<Were the Universe Anti-monitor living? able to act? NO>>

i honestly don't know what you were TRYING to say here, but if it was something like could the universes he destroyed fight back, then . . . hell yeah! each of the universes had its protectors - the universes did not WANT to die! did each have an 'eternity' or some equivalent? i don't know. dc operates a little differently. i was putting his accomplishments into MARVEL terms. as far as LT - a full power pre-crisis spectre was arguably MORE powerful than LT. he can basically use whatever power he NEEDS. sort of like PF if what gs says is true. and he STILL couldn't beat AM!

<<Anti-monitor didn't beat countless Eternity he defeated Universe (Eternity can act fight back)>>

and here you have me really confused because for the life of me i can't understand why you're not getting the multiverse thing. the title of the series was CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS! do you really think there are infinite earths tucked away inside ONE universe?? how is that possible?? they'd all be superimposed atop each other because they all exist in the same place! so the obvious answer is - THEY CAN'T! each of the INFINITE EARTHS existed in a seperate 'UNIVERSE'. the collection of all these variations of earth (and the universes they reside in) is the MULTIVERSE. each of the earths (and their universes) had its defenders - AM defeated them and destroyed their universe. then he moved to the next and the next. that's how dc eliminated all their problems. i'm not trying to talk down to you, i'm not even debating - it's a simple fact expressed in crisis. AM destroyed billions of UNIVERSES in an effort to destroy the MULTIVERSE. i'll give gs his PF, because clearly he appears to be the expert there, but it doesn't change the fact - AM was one tough sob and i doubt any 'non-force-of-creation-thing-with-avatars' will ever equal the feat.

<<Living Universes? Nope>>

i don't know. do universes in dc have embodying entities, or abstracts? i'm sure they do, but i can't think of them off-hand.

<<precrisis spectre basically WAS LT" nope Spectre is and always has been powered by God>>

well . . . you're right! and spectre STILL couldn't win! but i don't get why you've suddenly HELPED my argument. god permeates the MULTIVERSE. are you saying LT is greater than god???

Originally posted by Mider
You know Galacticstorm you pick up one one X-men comic and you think you know it all Jean Gray was defeated by the X-men im so sure She would be able to defeat the Anti-Monitor by Herself oh and did you forget Her being eaten by The Goblin Force you always talk down to everyone in here as if you know so much just state your ****ing rebuttle and stfu no one shoudl have to put up with your childish insults PF being reconned is pathetic its a force it needs Avatars to function and if the Anti-Monitor showed up it would be destroyed and NO ETERNITY DOESNT HAVE A CHANCE THE IG DOESNT HAVE A CHANCE LT DOESNT HAVE A CHANCE THE ANTI-MONITOR DESTORYED MORE THEN ONE UNIVERSE HOW THE HELL DOES ETERNITY BEAT HIM THE IG HAS POWER OVER ONE UNIVERSE AT A TIME SO DOES LT LT'S GREATEST FEAT IS BEING ABLE TO DESTROY A WHOLE UNIVERSE THATS IT and the Pre-crisis universe had prep time have you ever heard of that? PF cant beat everyone and i dont care what any new X-men comics say from what ive witnessed time and time again the Pheonix Force is not as powerful that it would rival Eternity oh and Galacticstorm you made up shit about The Beyonder calling the PF its almost equal or rival ive read Secret Wars II more then once The Beyonder ***** slaped The PF with out even breaking a sweak and never stated it being more powerful then He was He was never afraid of it He didnt just attack it He walked up to it and just grabed Her making Her go back to Her normal transformation if you knew anything youd know that the orginal Beyonder has powers SEVERAL times that of the multiverse meaning that even TOAA would not be able to handle the original Beyonder thus He was reconned.

Mider Im never unnecessarily insulting but if someone says something stupid yet still try and argue like they know what theyre talking about, then im sure as hell gonna tell them how it is.

Now lets get this straight BOY. You will not win a war of words with me. Understand that. I will own your ass all over these forums so dont even try it.

Boy you cant even spell for sh*t and you wanna make references to my maturity?

Puh-lease


I never claim to know everything about phoenix but it along with the xmen are my strengths and thats common knowledge on these forums. Accept that. You could learn a lot from me son.

"Jean Gray was defeated by the X-men"

No Jean Grey killed herself.


"oh and did you forget Her being eaten by The Goblin Force"

Oh and did you forget that the phoenix force is a multiversal entity. The goblin force consumed merely a shard of the force. If it had consumed the entire phoenix then how do you explain Phoenixes appearances in New Xmen and more recently EndSong? *sigh*


"stfu no one shoudl have to put up with your childish insults"

Nope. Noone but the retarded who deserve my full wrath.


"from what ive witnessed time and time again the Pheonix Force is not as powerful that it would rival Eternity"

Exactly. From what you've witnessed. All your posts make your comic book knowledge quite apparent and it leaves a lot be desired to say the least.

Do you not read posts BOY. The Phoenix force as stated in UncannyXmen 101 and 137 is the primal force of creation and is second only to TOAA.

Recent issues of FF say that the Phoenix is responsible for the creation of all of the abstracts such as eternity as it creates existence. So how is it just on par with Eternity?

In Xmen Forever Eternity calls Phoenix the resurrection force that is responsible for the creation of everything and it is the force that ends everything. He says its the assurance of life after death.

" The Beyonder ***** slaped The PF with out even breaking a sweak and never stated it being more powerful then He was He was never afraid of it He didnt just attack it He walked up to it and just grabed Her making Her go back to Her normal transformation if you knew anything youd know that the orginal Beyonder has powers SEVERAL times that of the multiverse meaning that even TOAA would not be able to handle the original Beyonder thus He was reconned. "

Your knowedge of Phoenix is abysmal. I dont ever want to see you criticise anyone again on these forums or whatever the debate i will take you apart.

The Beyonder handled Rachel. A phoenix avatar and a weak one at that. NOT the Phoenix Force. BIG DIFFERENCE BOY!!

The Beyonder gave Rachel the power he witnessed Jean as the original avatar manifesting. He went to take it back. Expecting just that what he gave her he was shocked to see the power he had gave her was augmented and he got an insight into what the phoenix force itself is about and what Rachel is connected to. The Beyonder who had humbled LT and so on was brought to his knees just from gaining a glimpse of what the Phoenix Force itself is about. Phoenixes power grows along a geometric curve the more they use their power. Rachel never really tapped into hers until her battle with Necrom waaay after the Beyonder was defeated and retconned. Rachel was the weakest of the avatars and far from her potential. If Jean as Phoenix of the White Crown faced him she would handle him.

"Beyonder has powers SEVERAL times that of the multiverse meaning that even TOAA would not be able to handle the original Beyonder thus He was reconned."

Mider that was just idiotic. Really really stupid. Ive lost all respect for your opinion on these forums. You know NOTHING. TOAA is GOD. How the hell r you gonna try and say the beyonder could beat him?

The Spectre my friend at full power is so powerful that when Hal Jordan was seperated from it and back to Parallax He was to scared to even gaze at the Spectre.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Living Universes? Nope>>

i don't know. do universes in dc have embodying entities, or abstracts? i'm sure they do, but i can't think of them off-hand.

<<precrisis spectre basically WAS LT" nope Spectre is and always has been powered by God>>

well . . . you're right! and spectre STILL couldn't win! but i don't get why you've suddenly HELPED my argument. god permeates the MULTIVERSE. are you saying LT is greater than god???
DC doesn't have abstracts that can think/ act like marvel at least for the universe

Eternity is like a living universe, anti-Monitor eat universes (universe can't fight back in DC only people in it)

As for Spectre powered by god doesn't help you? Why because spectre alone didn't beat Anti-monitor, and if God wants to beat Anti-Monitor he can do it with ease.

Spectre is never full powered or giving great power.

Full power how do we know if he is full power

He couldn't handle Parallax, I heard Fate defeated him, He didn't have power over criminals , so using Spectre = LT is BS spectre is not LT or close to it.


LT already has all the power he needs to keep the multiverse in check.

Galactic isn't that my scan

Originally posted by kgkg
Galactic isn't that my scan

It sure is KG

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It sure is KG
And remember all of you making fun of Death and Phoenix is above because she is multiversal and Death is Universe well

And Eternity / death etc are seem as Multiverses mightiest

Check this out

Death is multiversal

Anti-monitor is going down

Galacitstorm save the fancy speeches for others who are actually intimidated by you the PF has been defeated more then one get over it and live with it i really like Thanos but you dont see me saying Thanos could destroy the Mulitiverse by Himself i also like Dr Strange but im not sure if His powers can do that and who you calling boy punk your ramblings are seneless and not once do you ever find anything to back them up the PF is multiversal so what? In every universe there is an Eternity doesnt that make Eternity multiversal in every universe there is death and Order, And Chaos doesnt that make them multiversal it should its only logical your war of words means nothing to me im not here for war of words im here for war of facts my spelling may be bad but thats no excuse for you being a prick witch you are Now Jean gray is a weak avatar? And to think you were saying she was the ultimate just a few posts ago and full wrath of what, a nobody like you? Oh my i tremble in fear a shred of the PF powers BOY The Spectre is also an agent of The Presance and thus at full power should rival even the LT and the PF if what you claim is even true The Spectre at full power is equal to the LT oh and a full powered Spectre scared the shit out of Parallax and when dealing with very powerful villains has shown even greater powers only angels like Archangel Micheal and Lucifer Morningstar can defeat The Spectre at full power. So once again BOY stfu and just stick to the post not your worthless and araggent statments.

The original Beyonder handled Pheonix apperently your fanboyish has made you insane or just plain crazy or stuipd im sure you probably fit into all three of those not listen carefully BOY ive owned Secret Wars II for years and ive seen the battle between The Beyonder and PF He OWNED HER totally and utterly and i guess your PF force doesnt know what avatars to choose since it choose a weak one like the one you said i guess the PF is foolish like you BOY The Original Beyonder was more powerful then hundreds of multiversal PF's

Anti-Monitor would only lose after some well planed scheme by Thanos or the like but against the higher powers of the MU He would decemate both god and cosmic alike dont know about mystics but the cosmics are gonna die and die bad.

Originally posted by Mider
Galacitstorm save the fancy speeches for others who are actually intimidated by you the PF has been defeated more then one get over it and live with it i really like Thanos but you dont see me saying Thanos could destroy the Mulitiverse by Himself i also like Dr Strange but im not sure if His powers can do that and who you calling boy punk your ramblings are seneless and not once do you ever find anything to back them up the PF is multiversal so what? In every universe there is an Eternity doesnt that make Eternity multiversal in every universe there is death and Order, And Chaos doesnt that make them multiversal it should its only logical your war of words means nothing to me im not here for war of words im here for war of facts my spelling may be bad but thats no excuse for you being a prick witch you are Now Jean gray is a weak avatar? And to think you were saying she was the ultimate just a few posts ago and full wrath of what, a nobody like you? Oh my i tremble in fear a shred of the PF powers BOY The Spectre is also an agent of The Presance and thus at full power should rival even the LT and the PF if what you claim is even true The Spectre at full power is equal to the LT oh and a full powered Spectre scared the shit out of Parallax and when dealing with very powerful villains has shown even greater powers only angels like Archangel Micheal and Lucifer Morningstar can defeat The Spectre at full power. So once again BOY stfu and just stick to the post not your worthless and araggent statments.

"i really like Thanos but you dont see me saying Thanos could destroy the Mulitiverse by Himself i also like Dr Strange but im not sure if His powers can do that "

No. Because it would be ridiculously stupid for you to say either of them could take over the multiverse under their own power. The fact that you're not even entirely certain if Strange alone can speaks a lot for your comic book knowledge.


"your ramblings are seneless and not once do you ever find anything to back them up the PF is multiversal so what? In every universe there is an Eternity doesnt that make Eternity multiversal in every universe there is death and Order, And Chaos doesnt that make them multiversal it "

By saying LT and Phoenix are multiversal entities im saying that their power extends over the entire multiverse and unlike beings like eternity and galactus who have alternate reality versions of themselves in each and every universe there is only one phoenix force who has avatars acting on its behalf in every universe. Just like there is only one LT.
I think the concepts in marvel comics are waaay over your head son. Stick to richie rich


"Jean gray is a weak avatar?"

BOY you really dont read posts properly do you? Here i go having to school your illiterate ass once again. I have not stated anywhere on this thread that jean is a weak avatar. I said Rachel was the weak avatar. Jean is the top avatar you fool.


" The Spectre is also an agent of The Presance and thus at full power should rival even the LT and the PF if what you claim is even true The Spectre at full power is equal to the LT oh and a full powered Spectre scared the shit out of Parallax and when dealing with very powerful villains has shown even greater powers only angels like Archangel Micheal and Lucifer Morningstar can defeat The Spectre at full power. So once again BOY stfu and just stick to the post not your worthless and araggent statments."


Boy what the hell are you waffling about? I cant understand a word of this garbage. When did i mention anything about the Spectre? Take your a*se back to elementary.

Originally posted by Mider
The original Beyonder handled Pheonix apperently your fanboyish has made you insane or just plain crazy or stuipd im sure you probably fit into all three of those not listen carefully BOY ive owned Secret Wars II for years and ive seen the battle between The Beyonder and PF He OWNED HER totally and utterly and i guess your PF force doesnt know what avatars to choose since it choose a weak one like the one you said i guess the PF is foolish like you BOY The Original Beyonder was more powerful then hundreds of multiversal PF's

Mider i have read your posts before and ive witnessed your arguments with other posters such as Lord S. At first i felt sorry for you. But now im involved in a debate with your retarded self i understand exactlywhere they were coming from.

GET THIS INTO YOUR SKULL. THE BEYONDER NEVER BATTLED THE PHOENIX FORCE. HE BATTLED PHOENIX 2 WHICH WAS RACHEL.

SHE DOESNT HAVE AS SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PHOENIX AS HER MOTHER THEREFORE SHE CAN NOT DRAW ON AS MUCH POWER.

SHE ALSO FOUND OUT THAT WHEN SHE DREW ON HER PHOENIX POWERS IT AFFECTED HER MEMORIES SO SHE NEVERFULLY TAPPED INTO HER POWERS UNTIL HER BATTLE WITH NECROM WHICH WAS WAAAAY AFTER THE BEYONDER AFFAIR.

THE BEYONDER TOOK OUT RACHEL WHICH IS FAIR ENOUGH. SO WHAT? HE COULDNT TAKE OUT HER MOTHER JEAN AS PHOENIX OF THE WHITE CROWN YOU FOOL. LOOK WHAT HAPPENED WHEN BEYONDER GOT AN INSIGHT INTO THE FORCE BEHIND RACHEL AND JEANS POWERS. HE FELL TO THE GROUND AND WAS HUMBLED. RACHEL WIELDED A MINUTE FRACTION OF THIS FORCE AND WAS STILL AMAZINGLY POWERFUL.

JEAN AS THE TOP OF THE PHOENIX HIERARCHY CAN DRAW ON AS MUCH OF THE POWER AS SHE NEEDS TO SAFEGUARD EXISTENCE. SHE WOULD F**K UP THE BEYONDER YOU SILLY CHILD. THE FORCE ITSELF IS SUGGESTED TO BE AN INCARNATION OF TOAA BUT ITS KNOWN THAT ITS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CREATION OF ALL THAT IS. GET THAT INTO YOUR HEAD. ALLLLL THAT IS. ALL THE ALTERNATE REALITY VERSIONS OF GALACTUS AND ETERNITY ETC. THE FORCE ITSELF IS SECOND ONLY TO TOAA.

SO WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU GOING ON ABOUT. ? THE PHOENIX SHOULDN'T CHOOSE SUCH WEAK AVATARS. PSSSSH

That statement in itself shows your lack of knowledge of the phoenix and all your posts show your lack of knowledge about all things Marvel in general. Your just a pest on these forums. Your posts are dreaded.

hmm, i'm sensing some hostility around here . . . and we were having such a fun debate.

as far the scan kg - to me, that implies that the problem as not yet REACHED the multiverse, hence the scan is showing a meeting of LT and the universal dieties. as far as death being multiversal - never really thought of it, but it makes sense. death sounds more like the opposite of the phoenix force from what gs says, then of eternity, so that may well make it multiversal. other eternities HAVE been shown to exist in 'what if' universes (what if korvac lived, for one and i can't think of the other, but it was more recent) so it is clear that eternity at least is NOT a multiversal entity. i'm sure eternity is not the only cosmic to appear in 'what if' books, i just can't think of any others. i'm sure more than just eternity was in that korvac issue, but i can't seem to find that book.

and gs, phoenix is clearly among your faves. why on earth would you like a character that can't be defeated? personally, i've always had an immense dislike of the phoenix force. it ruins stories BECAUSE it cannot be defeated. if as you say the crown can use whatever power is needed to combat any threat, then theoretically there should never BE a threat! anything that becomes large enough in the PF's eyes, will smply be destroyed by PF. kind of a ridiculous safeguard, isn't it?

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, i'm sensing some hostility around here . . . and we were having such a fun debate.

as far the scan kg - to me, that implies that the problem as not yet REACHED the multiverse, hence the scan is showing a meeting of LT and the universal dieties. as far as death being multiversal - never really thought of it, but it makes sense. death sounds more like the opposite of the phoenix force from what gs says, then of eternity, so that may well make it multiversal. other eternities HAVE been shown to exist in 'what if' universes (what if korvac lived, for one and i can't think of the other, but it was more recent) so it is clear that eternity at least is NOT a multiversal entity. i'm sure eternity is not the only cosmic to appear in 'what if' books, i just can't think of any others. i'm sure more than just eternity was in that korvac issue, but i can't seem to find that book.

and gs, phoenix is clearly among your faves. why on earth would you like a character that can't be defeated? personally, i've always had an immense dislike of the phoenix force. it ruins stories BECAUSE it cannot be defeated. if as you say the crown can use whatever power is needed to combat any threat, then theoretically there should never BE a threat! anything that becomes large enough in the PF's eyes, will smply be destroyed by PF. kind of a ridiculous safeguard, isn't it?

Id consider that a brilliant safeguard lol.

Anyway you're right. Eternity isnt a multiversal entity. However i know for a fact that Phoenix and LT definitely are. As for Death im not so sure because she/it sure as hell got handled by Thanos with Infinity Gauntlet and im sure that gives you ultimate power within a single universe only. As it is the phoenix force embodies both eternity and death. It creates life therefore making deaths existence possible in the first place.

As for the hostility in this thread you can see where and who it all stemmed from

The same source has been responsible for numerous other arguments on other threads. I think its the combination of illiteracy, quite apparent lack of comic book knowledge yet a big insistence that they actually know what the hell theyre talking about. Thats what really bugs people on here

"anything that becomes large enough in the PF's eyes, will smply be destroyed by PF. kind of a ridiculous safeguard, isn't it?"

Yet there are still threats in the multiverse which we can read about because of how the phoenix works. Remember the avatars survey existence from the white hot room and can see possible outcomes. Thats how they know when to enter our plane of existence to carry out their phoenix duties. The force never got involved in the Infinity wars or in The End possibly cause it foresaw how it was going to play out and so its intervention wasnt required. So thats why there still are threats to the universe. Also avatars can be defeated temporarily. Jean has had her physical body destroyed on numerous occassions however she can never die.

Galacticstorm PF would lose to the Anti-Monitor just live with it He has the power to destroy a multiverse that that inculdes the MU get over the sad fact stuipd ass PF fanboy.

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, i'm sensing some hostility around here . . . and we were having such a fun debate.

as far the scan kg - to me, that implies that the problem as not yet REACHED the multiverse, hence the scan is showing a meeting of LT and the universal dieties. as far as death being multiversal - never really thought of it, but it makes sense. death sounds more like the opposite of the phoenix force from what gs says, then of eternity, so that may well make it multiversal. other eternities HAVE been shown to exist in 'what if' universes (what if korvac lived, for one and i can't think of the other, but it was more recent) so it is clear that eternity at least is NOT a multiversal entity. i'm sure eternity is not the only cosmic to appear in 'what if' books, i just can't think of any others. i'm sure more than just eternity was in that korvac issue, but i can't seem to find that book.

and gs, phoenix is clearly among your faves. why on earth would you like a character that can't be defeated? personally, i've always had an immense dislike of the phoenix force. it ruins stories BECAUSE it cannot be defeated. if as you say the crown can use whatever power is needed to combat any threat, then theoretically there should never BE a threat! anything that becomes large enough in the PF's eyes, will smply be destroyed by PF. kind of a ridiculous safeguard, isn't it?

Death is multiversal

IG owned Death so its power is also MultiVersal

HOTU is also multiversal

Marvel has serious issues with its hierarchy.

As for the phoenix force different writer have different ideas about it.

In endsong she is just an entity like death.

Anti-Monitor is a anti-Universe he is no match for LT

Originally posted by Mider
Galacticstorm PF would lose to the Anti-Monitor just live with it He has the power to destroy a multiverse that that inculdes the MU get over the sad fact stuipd ass PF fanboy.

You silly child. Why must you put yourself through this. Arent you tired of getting owned on every thread you enter? oh well.

Let the schooling commence:

Anti-Monitor is basically a rogue eternity in the DC universe who went around eating other universes to add to his power. Very powerful i agree.

The phoenix force created the entire Marvel multiverse. The AM is just a being who went around destroying DC's one. The power to create is a lot greater than the power to destroy. Please let that point penetrate your skull.

The AM is far below the power hierarchy than the force is. It exists outside of the time/space continuum that AM is a part of. While AM is a part of the multiverse doing his plundering from the inside. The phoenix force and its avatars are on the outside surveying all of existence and holding universes in their hands as if they are nothing.

If she wished to all Jean would have to do is telekinetically rewrite time (as in New Xmen) and AM would be rendered non existent. He is a part of the universe. The multiverse courses through her and she is beyond it at the same time.

I know ive hurt your pride by owning you so severely but you know im right Mider so dont worry about it mate. Everyone else can see that as well. That is why you are the only one arguing. There, there. We all have to lose sometimes.

<<Death is multiversal>>

perhaps, but more likely its the 'concept' that is multiversal. i'm almost positive death has appeared in a 'what if book' somewhere - maybe that same korvac issue where the ultimate nullifier is used at the end. i was also speculating on the IG. based on its origins, it seems to me the wielder was given power over everything in just the wielder's universe. guess it's impossible to know for sure. unless a 'what if thanos won the infinity war' comic comes out . . .

<<IG owned Death so its power is also MultiVersal>>

see above.

<<HOTU is also multiversal>>

from what i've read, it sounds like it is. if that's the case, then again, it (or its wielder) could probably stop AM. i've said all along that only mulitversal beings (hotu, PF, LT) would be able to battle/defeat him in a one on one fight.

<<Marvel has serious issues with its hierarchy.>>

you ain't kiddin'!

<<Yet there are still threats in the multiverse which we can read about because of how the phoenix works. Remember the avatars survey existence from the white hot room and can see possible outcomes. Thats how they know when to enter our plane of existence to carry out their phoenix duties. The force never got involved in the Infinity wars or in The End possibly cause it foresaw how it was going to play out and so its intervention wasnt required.>>

this is a contradiction, gs. first you say there are still threats possible then say the avatars can predict teh outcomes of events. so . . . if it's not a threat, they don't bother to intervene (ie infinity war). following that reasoning then, the infinity war never really WAS a threat! if it had been deemed as such, PF would have intervened and stopped it. you also say the avatars can be beaten, but that doesn't matter either because jean, (she has the crown, right?) could just enter and deal with the problem apparently (and i have trouble believing this) to the point where she could actually RESTRUCTURE the mulitiverse!!??

back to my original point - i can't STAND the PF! how could there EVER be a true cosmic threat if it's just waiting to rear up and destroy the offender? and if it DOES NOT appear, obviously the threat is NOT a true threat and will be dealt with by whomever is dealing with it. the PF is a pointless force if it truly is as powerful as you say. of course, maybe it's NOT as powerful as you think . . .

Originally posted by manjaro
right...sure he would lose. it took a host of most of DC's heroes and villains from all timelines to merely delay him. they even broke them down in categories magic users, energy weilders, EM spectrum manipulators...etc. even after the spectre had stepped in it only inconvenienced him breifly, if it wasnt for lex luthor's uber powerful kid they never would have stood a chance at defeating him. and even though they did defeat him it was only due to the fact that he had no more energy to absorb so im sure he's still out there some where.

unless Marvel is gonna play cheap and bring in someonne who is akin to him like the Beyonder, or LT there is no way they're winning. I mean how do you beat a guy who created his own universe with enrgies he can absorb at his whim? not easily thats how Play cheap? When your universe is @ stake anything goes. Also Phoenix would be there as well as Captain Universe. The Marvel Universe ain't losing to something called the Anti-Monitor.

You know what would most likely happen? Doom would hop the rungs up the ladder again until he stole Anti-Monitor's powers then give them up because he was bored.

Wouldn't be surprised. Doom's the greatest. Period. He's a mortal with such an amazing mind and will that it puts him on equal footing w/gods!

GalacticStorm, just ignore Mider. He's on a misguided Anti-Marvel Cosmics crusade. This is the same cat that tried to get me BANNED (yes, BANNED, he reported me to the moderators) just for saying that Living Tribunal was greater than/equal to Lucifer Morningstar when I first got to this board. I didn't insult him in any way or anything, I just posted a logical point of view he couldn't contest and he spazzed out and called me a LT fanboy then reported me to Tron and Paola. He's pathetic man. Just leave him be, he's not worth the 3 synapses used to outsmart him.

What do you call it when someone thinks that one character can just defeat all the others hmmm thats a fanboy but i guess your to stuipd to know that i mean your someone who thought that Lucifer Morningstar was less powerful then the LT yeah real smart that shows how low your inteligance level is and Galacticstorm anyone can look at you once and know your a PF fanboy i mean its sad it was one comic in witch the PF was reconned and now you think you know everything about it i mean you dont even know how powerful the original Beyonder was if it was Jean Gray fighting The Beyonder you know what would have happend the same damn thing that happend to Racheal She would have been owned.

What comic does it say that PF is multiversal?

Originally posted by Mider
What comic does it say that PF is multiversal?
It universal, multiversal , entity , a force

Different writers have written it differently

It is not above LT that's for sure

Originally posted by Mider
What comic does it say that PF is multiversal?

In it's very first appearance. It was created when the multiverse alligned itself, creating perfect order that manifested as powerful energy matrix.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
In it's very first appearance. It was created when the multiverse alligned itself, creating perfect order that manifested as powerful energy matrix.

That was its retcon origins. Phoenix originally was created when Jean Grey burned up on re-entry and became a being of pure thought. She became one with everything and at this point the primal force of creation which made everything in existence and is one with everything joined with her. She was reborn and called herself phoenix because of the way she burned up and was reformed.

Jean actually was phoenix. The force she was one with back then wasnt a separate entity with its own identity until after the 86 retcon which is when your origin story comes in. That is when the phoenix became a separate entity that chose to impart its power in people who it felt drawn to.

That is what i mean when i say phoenxes origins and connection with people have been changed over time but never its power.

Grant Morrison in New Xmen then went and reverted the phoenix story back to Chris C's original vision with the phoenix being one with Jean.

The Phoenix itself was a higher consciousness and certain beings in each of the multiverses universes were born with phoenix potential and they would grow up to be able to tap into the force which created and was one with all of life.

The writer of Endsong Greg Pak supports G Morrison on his take of the phoenix and the takes in elements of the 86 retcon. The phoenix is both this higher consciousness and its avatars itself. Each avatars portion of the phoenix force seems to take on the form of its avatar and some of their thought processes. This is what we saw in endsong.

That doesnt change GM's reversion to Chris C's original idea it just incorporates both ideas which is fair enough because the retcon phoenix seems to be the one which is most familiar with comic book readers.

Apprently you guys dont know anything about being outside the universe do you? That doesnt mean anything sept that you can servive if the universe is destroyed or that time and space wont hurt you creating the multiverse is a big thing but it also depends on how long it took if Galactus had like 200000 years He could probably make His own universe some of these Skyfathers have there own universes too there not anywere near the reconned PF. Ill just have to read the Mini-series for myself.

Originally posted by Mider
Apprently you guys dont know anything about being outside the universe do you? That doesnt mean anything sept that you can servive if the universe is destroyed or that time and space wont hurt you creating the multiverse is a big thing but it also depends on how long it took if Galactus had like 200000 years He could probably make His own universe some of these Skyfathers have there own universes too there not anywere near the reconned PF. Ill just have to read the Mini-series for myself.

Ummm so what point are you trying to make here? The phoenix never made a universe it made all of existence and all of the abstracts within them. AM is a rogue Eternity who empowered himself by absorbing other universes. Powerful but big deal. SO WHAT.

The Big Deal is that Phoenix hasnt showed any powers that ive seen that should could dominate the whole multiverse. Destroying a whole galaxy Galactus could do that a whole universe Anti-Monitor can do that by snapping His fingers probably creating a whole multiverse the only people that ive seen able to do that are the Angels from DC the top ones Archangel Micheal and Lucifer Morningstar and of coure TOAA and The Presance now your saying that the PF can do this too........im just not so sure thats true.

Originally posted by Mider
What do you call it when someone thinks that one character can just defeat all the others hmmm thats a fanboy but i guess your to stuipd to know that i mean your someone who thought that Lucifer Morningstar was less powerful then the LT yeah real smart that shows how low your inteligance level is and Galacticstorm anyone can look at you once and know your a PF fanboy i mean its sad it was one comic in witch the PF was reconned and now you think you know everything about it i mean you dont even know how powerful the original Beyonder was if it was Jean Gray fighting The Beyonder you know what would have happend the same damn thing that happend to Racheal She would have been owned.



Mider, how old are you? 12? 13?

Wow.

I'm waiting for you to call someone a poopie head or say "I know you are, but what am I?" so I can fall out of my chair laughing at your lame ass. How on God's green Earth (not Lucifer Morningstar's, God's) can YOU, of all people, point the finger at someone for thinking a particular character is unbeatable when you're the most childish poster on the board that stoops so low as to make it his goal in life to discredit 'omnipotent' characters who just so happen to not be in the DCU.

Fanboy?

I never have to go to bat for the Tribunal, I don't even really like or dislike the character, i just acknowledge his place in the hierarchy, which happens to be second to only God. If you catch me defending The Punisher, Green Lantern or Black Panther illogically, you might have reason to feel I'm being a 'fanboy' because those are my favorite characters.

That will never happen.

You, on the other hand, are a DC crotch jockey of unknown degree and dimensions. You sit prone and accepting in the lap of any character that comes out of that company and it's hilarious. You probably even use "Bat-lube" when you do it.

Fall back young'n.

Put the Anti-Monitor's and Lucifer's manhoods down and walk away. They don't care about you.

illadelph12 you dont know anything about the LT thats why your a fanboy second to TOAA yeah right how? He was defeated by a human with the powers of one planet and five cosmic entities wow how powerful im so scared. why dont you go **** yourself the reason that Eternity and LT dont do anything sept talk big and pretend there so powerful is cause there to busy getting there dicks waxed by a retard like you and yeah i dont care if you reply to this in some stupid way im kinda drunk right now so **** you ass rammer LOL HAHAHA

Originally posted by Mider
The Big Deal is that Phoenix hasnt showed any powers that ive seen that should could dominate the whole multiverse. Destroying a whole galaxy Galactus could do that a whole universe Anti-Monitor can do that by snapping His fingers probably creating a whole multiverse the only people that ive seen able to do that are the Angels from DC the top ones Archangel Micheal and Lucifer Morningstar and of coure TOAA and The Presance now your saying that the PF can do this too........im just not so sure thats true.

Mider at the end of the day there are many comic references that ive listed throughout this thread for you to look back and witness this for yourself. I cant believe that youre arguing against me so fiercely and insisting you are right but you've hardly read anything about the phoenix whatsoever. Thats ridiculous. How can you argue fairly. Exactly you cant so go to a comic book shop and enlighten yourself.

I gotta say people cosmic crossovers in my opinion are a waste of time as the Marvel Multiverse and thee DC Hypertime are so different. Even at non cosmic level when we start discussing character based on a "plot device" to explain ther powers we are on sticky ground, e.eg Flash's powers don't work in Marvel. Who says the monitors will or Phoenixs in DCU. Like theres no Speed force in Marvel, I don't know if the Phoenix Force is in DCU. You see its pointless

Keep the Faith enjoy all good comics

Originally posted by whirlysplat
I gotta say people cosmic crossovers in my opinion are a waste of time as the Marvel Multiverse and thee DC Hypertime are so different. Even at non cosmic level when we start discussing character based on a "plot device" to explain ther powers we are on sticky ground, e.eg Flash's powers don't work in Marvel. Who says the monitors will or Phoenixs in DCU. Like theres no Speed force in Marvel, I don't know if the Phoenix Force is in DCU. You see its pointless

Keep the Faith enjoy all good comics

What's your power?

"I have complete control over water!"

You're fighting in a desert.

"Oh ****!"

Originally posted by Creshosk
What's your power?

"I have complete control over water!"

You're fighting in a desert.

"Oh ****!"

<<I gotta say people cosmic crossovers in my opinion are a waste of time as the Marvel Multiverse and thee DC Hypertime are so different. Even at non cosmic level when we start discussing character based on a "plot device" to explain ther powers we are on sticky ground, e.eg Flash's powers don't work in Marvel. Who says the monitors will or Phoenixs in DCU. Like theres no Speed force in Marvel, I don't know if the Phoenix Force is in DCU. You see its pointless

Keep the Faith enjoy all good comics>>

ah, whirly, the voice of reason amid the insanity. you're right of course, but it was actually a fun debate before everyone started, well . . . YOU read the posts! too damn much bashing around here. i don't like choosing sides, but mider, ya gotta go easier bro. and i'm not sure how cool it is to pile on mider either, though mider, you gotta admit you do bring some on yourself . . .

my whole point is AM is one tough bastard who can probably only be taken down only by someone of multiversal power (ie - LT, PF) but kg, you're nuts if you think LT would 'own' AM. if a full power spectre (and LT and spectre ARE considered relative equals as shown in the dc/marvel x-over) couldn't do it, LT sure as hell couldn't 'own' AM. questionable if he could even beat him. spectre's power varies depending on the situation (not to mention he's probably second only to galactus in his use as a plot device to showcase how tough someone is!) and at full power, precrisis . . . whew! spectre was one seriously bad hombre! it's useless discussing IG, because niether of us knows how far it's powers extend.

bottom line - just like thor v glads, i'm right and you're wrong.

heheh



ps-PF still sucks galacticstorm!

Originally posted by leonidas
<<I gotta say people cosmic crossovers in my opinion are a waste of time as the Marvel Multiverse and thee DC Hypertime are so different. Even at non cosmic level when we start discussing character based on a "plot device" to explain ther powers we are on sticky ground, e.eg Flash's powers don't work in Marvel. Who says the monitors will or Phoenixs in DCU. Like theres no Speed force in Marvel, I don't know if the Phoenix Force is in DCU. You see its pointless

Keep the Faith enjoy all good comics>>

ah, whirly, the voice of reason amid the insanity. you're right of course, but it was actually a fun debate before everyone started, well . . . YOU read the posts! too damn much bashing around here. i don't like choosing sides, but mider, ya gotta go easier bro. and i'm not sure how cool it is to pile on mider either, though mider, you gotta admit you do bring some on yourself . . .

my whole point is AM is one tough bastard who can probably only be taken down only by someone of multiversal power (ie - LT, PF) but kg, you're nuts if you think LT would 'own' AM. if a full power spectre (and LT and spectre ARE considered relative equals as shown in the dc/marvel x-over) couldn't do it, LT sure as hell couldn't 'own' AM. questionable if he could even beat him. spectre's power varies depending on the situation (not to mention he's probably second only to galactus in his use as a plot device to showcase how tough someone is!) and at full power, precrisis . . . whew! spectre was one seriously bad hombre! it's useless discussing IG, because niether of us knows how far it's powers extend.

bottom line - just like thor v glads, i'm right and you're wrong.

heheh



ps-PF still sucks galacticstorm!



Yeah? So where is AM now by the way Leo?

<<Yeah? So where is AM now by the way Leo?>>

what do you mean?? he's, well, he's . . . hrm. who cares about AM anyway? hercules rules!

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Yeah? So where is AM now by the way Leo?>>

what do you mean?? he's, well, he's . . . hrm. who cares about AM anyway? hercules rules!


Hurcules who is that ?

Originally posted by kgkg
Hurcules who is that ? Dude played by kevin sarbo in one of them television programs.

Wait, maybe I'm getting this confused with that mickey mouse type zero to hero type. . .

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yeah? So where is AM now by the way Leo?
He is baking cookies at Nanny's.

Originally posted by whirlysplat
I gotta say people cosmic crossovers in my opinion are a waste of time as the Marvel Multiverse and thee DC Hypertime are so different. Even at non cosmic level when we start discussing character based on a "plot device" to explain ther powers we are on sticky ground, e.eg Flash's powers don't work in Marvel. Who says the monitors will or Phoenixs in DCU. Like theres no Speed force in Marvel, I don't know if the Phoenix Force is in DCU. You see its pointless

Keep the Faith enjoy all good comics

That's plain stupid. Shouldn't we assume that the characters are in some sort of middle ground where all of their abilities work? Regardless, who says that there is no Speed Force in Marvel, or no Phoenix Force in DC?

hey, go easy on whirly! i think he was just sensing the hosilities and was trying to play peacemaker.

and AM is not baking cookies at nanny's house - he's right here, beside me, and we're planning a way to wipe out that idiotic phoenix force! (he keeps telling me not to worry though, because PF has no power in dc's universe . . .)

and the herc jests really are beneath you guys . . .

(kevin sorba! groannnn ....)

the debating was going well for awhile, gee... what the hell happened? anyhoo, IMO how powerful the PF is currently is irreleveant, whom ever the Avatar is still couldnt manage AM all by themselves.(key word being themselves) the thing that all seem to NOT realize is that AM destroyed countless billions of universes save a few before they were all destroyed leaving only the inhabitants of three to battle him. all the heroes and villains of all the universes were powerless before him. they could do nothing as that white wall of nothingness consumed them all. this guy essentially destroyed the ENTIRE multiverse utterly unopposed.

he did this while gathering enuff anti-matter energy to create his own universe that was bigger than all the universes combined, plus leeching the power from the equally powerful Monitor.Also, to get one thing straight, The pre-crsis Spectre had no known limits, for back then he didnt require a host, and writers havent yet muddied up his powers, and abilites and the fact that he was Pre-crisis pretty much speaks for it self. as it stood he was very much the equal to the much vaunted LT yet he only served to delay AM(even after he got a massive power boost from all the magic users in the DCU)

yes the PF is indeed powerful, but unless the MU is gonna do exactly what The DCU did and put all thier differences aside both hero and villain and all tag team him there 's no way he's gonna lose. but the funny thing is tho since Marvel is more campy and a lot less gritty than DC you just know that one super hero team alone would foolishly try to take him on and get obliterated. the thing is one uber powerful being alone aginst him wont stand a chance..... not even LT or the beyonder, and damn surely not phoenix

of course LT would own anti-monitor...why does nobody understand that LT can do whatever he wants? he is much much more the equivilent of michael or lucifer than spectre...

Originally posted by manjaro
the debating was going well for awhile, gee... what the hell happened? anyhoo, IMO how powerful the PF is currently is irreleveant, whom ever the Avatar is still couldnt manage AM all by themselves.(key word being themselves) the thing that all seem to NOT realize is that AM destroyed countless billions of universes save a few before they were all destroyed leaving only the inhabitants of three to battle him. all the heroes and villains of all the universes were powerless before him. they could do nothing as that white wall of nothingness consumed them all. this guy essentially destroyed the ENTIRE multiverse utterly unopposed.

he did this while gathering enuff anti-matter energy to create his own universe that was bigger than all the universes combined, plus leeching the power from the equally powerful Monitor.Also, to get one thing straight, The pre-crsis Spectre had no known limits, for back then he didnt require a host, and writers havent yet muddied up his powers, and abilites and the fact that he was Pre-crisis pretty much speaks for it self. as it stood he was very much the equal to the much vaunted LT yet he only served to delay AM(even after he got a massive power boost from all the magic users in the DCU)

yes the PF is indeed powerful, but unless the MU is gonna do exactly what The DCU did and put all thier differences aside both hero and villain and all tag team him there 's no way he's gonna lose. but the funny thing is tho since Marvel is more campy and a lot less gritty than DC you just know that one super hero team alone would foolishly try to take him on and get obliterated. the thing is one uber powerful being alone aginst him wont stand a chance..... not even LT or the beyonder, and damn surely not phoenix

Ive made too many points as to why phoenix would win for you to just come on and say she wouldnt because uber powerful DC characters such as the Spectre lost to him one on one. So what!!! At the end of the day Phoenix creates and then eventually destroys multiverses. AM is basically an eternity who went around absorbing the power of other non sentient universes which wouldnt be hard if you think about it until he came to the last one. At which point he got taken out. With all that amassed power he was still below the phoenix force.

The Phoenix force creates all that is and is one with all that is. It can also tap into the life energies of future generations. Unlike the enemies who faced AM the phoenix exists beyond the time space continuum that AM is a part of. Jean could hold the universe in her hand and decide his fate with a thought. All she would have to do as previously mentioned is reverse time and rid existence of AM. It is very possible and completely within her power to do so. Bye bye Anti Monitor

I found an interesting revelation. Anybody that has the Spectre v2 series could you please confirm this? Because apparently, in Spectre v2 #1, It was stated there that the Spectre didnt fought AM at full power. He said that he abandoned omnipotence even before his fight with AM.

If this is true, then by some people's logic that Pre-Crisis Spectre is equal to LT, wouldnt that most likely make LT stronger than AM? because if Spectre didnt fight at full power, I would tend to think that he couldve beaten AM at full power.

So yeah, can anybody confirm this?

No that means that LT would be LESS powerful then Spectre since Spectre was His equal during DC VS Marvel and no LT cant do whatever He want what dont you get about that geez at full power He can only destroy a universe thats it Korvac proved to be more powerful possessing the powers of supposidly less powerful cosmic beings I.E the combined powers of

Grandmaster
Shaper Of Worlds
In-Betweener
The High Evolutionary
Galactus World Ship
the host of Celestials on earth at that time
Gardener
The Stranger
The combined life force of all of earths people and Hero's

I mean supposidly LT is more powerful then all these beings yet He was unable to defeat Korvac He had to flee He Himself said Is this being so powerful as to oppose my judgement He then had to leave locking the universe in on itself keeping anyone from leaving or entering Korvac later destroyed it.

On the other hand Spectre has made Parallax so scared as even to look at Him when The Spectre seperated from Him.

DV VS. Marvel shouldn't be taken as canon.

to you guys if anything is against your beloved LT it should not be taken as canon give me a break the guy is not all powerful.

Originally posted by Mider
to you guys if anything is against your beloved LT it should not be taken as canon give me a break the guy is not all powerful.
He is the most powerful being in Marvel it's been stated by many cosmic beings


Thanos with HOTU said that also, I have no idea why you hate the guy so much.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


Unlike the enemies who faced AM the phoenix exists beyond the time space continuum that AM is a part of. Jean could hold the universe in her hand and decide his fate with a thought. All she would have to do as previously mentioned is reverse time and rid existence of AM. It is very possible and completely within her power to do so. Bye bye Anti Monitor

thats just the thing A. AM exists in his own universe B. thats exactly how they tried to defeat him. after he went to the dawn of time to remake reality thats where all of them went to face him, you know that place youve seen in earlier GL comics with a giant hand with a galaxy swirling in the middle? and Am was all like ill do this and that ill be all powerful and bla blah blah, then boom spectre confronted him and was no match for him then all the magic users both hero and villain forming a circle and holding hands transfered thier power into spectre and it still wasnt enuff.

lastly reversing time woudlnt do her any good cuz this guy is over ten billion years old, she would have to go back to when he was created to erase him and doing so would undoubtedlychange the history of everyone else including her friends and loved ones becuase who knows if one person from one of the universes he destroyed werent the one that was going to do a drive by on jean's parents or something....you know get what im saying? its not like its a small insignificant thing like going back in time to turn the faucet on to see what effect it would have on the future

<<the debating was going well for awhile, gee... what the hell happened>>

well then why didn't you get in on the other 5 pages?? everyone pretty well everything they had to say. thread was winding down.

<<the thing that all seem to NOT realize is that AM destroyed countless billions of universes save a few before they were all destroyed leaving only the inhabitants of three to battle him.>>

actually i did say that. about 4 different times. didn't work to convince anyone more for you than it did for me. i agree with most of what you said though. too bad you DIDN'T join in earlier! but one thing galacticstorm said that i MEANT to mention earlier - gs, you mentioned that PF can tap power from future generations - AM did the same thing. he absorbed/destroyed countless 'future' universes. and something else i've pondered - if his 'antimatter' power was so great, i wonder if, as he destroyed the universes, if he wouldn't simultaneously be destroying that part of the PF that resides in each of those universes. i thin that has a weird logic. each universe he absorbed, he would grow stronger, while at the same time he would be obliterating the PF and making it weaker and weaker! just like he did to the monitor. and destroying a portion of the PF is not without precedent - goblin force did it, though on nowhere near the scale. nothing in the dc universe could withstand his power, perhaps he would devour the PF as well . . .

Originally posted by manjaro
thats just the thing A. AM exists in his own universe B. thats exactly how they tried to defeat him. after he went to the dawn of time to remake reality thats where all of them went to face him, you know that place youve seen in earlier GL comics with a giant hand with a galaxy swirling in the middle? and Am was all like ill do this and that ill be all powerful and bla blah blah, then boom spectre confronted him and was no match for him then all the magic users both hero and villain forming a circle and holding hands transfered thier power into spectre and it still wasnt enuff.

lastly reversing time woudlnt do her any good cuz this guy is over ten billion years old, she would have to go back to when he was created to erase him and doing so would undoubtedlychange the history of everyone else including her friends and loved ones becuase who knows if one person from one of the universes he destroyed werent the one that was going to do a drive by on jean's parents or something....you know get what im saying? its not like its a small insignificant thing like going back in time to turn the faucet on to see what effect it would have on the future

As phoenix of the white crown jean is more powerful than any enemy AM would have faced. The Spectre wasnt at full power when he faced AM as he later admitted and is probably the reason why he needed a boost from all of the magic users. As for your reversing time counter. Its void. The phoenixes are regulated by the Voice(TOAA apparently) they survey all of existence from the white hot room which contains it. They can see potential outcomes and that is how they know when exactly to enter our plane of reality to carry out their phoenix work and what consequences they will have. Jean is a higher being now. Just as Jean knew exactly what she was doing when she reversed the 616 universes timeline without breaking a sweat if she chose to defeat him by doing the same thing she would know in that situation also, exactly what she was doing.

At the end of the day AM amassed the majority of the power of a multiverse however that still doesnt place him on equal footing to the being that created it. The phoenix is also one with all of its creation who is to say that jean could not reclaim this stolen power? AM was very powerful however he is no match for phoenix or LT who unlike his DC equivalent Spectre always remains at a supreme power level.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<the debating was going well for awhile, gee... what the hell happened>>

well then why didn't you get in on the other 5 pages?? everyone pretty well everything they had to say. thread was winding down.

<<the thing that all seem to NOT realize is that AM destroyed countless billions of universes save a few before they were all destroyed leaving only the inhabitants of three to battle him.>>

actually i did say that. about 4 different times. didn't work to convince anyone more for you than it did for me. i agree with most of what you said though. too bad you DIDN'T join in earlier! but one thing galacticstorm said that i MEANT to mention earlier - gs, you mentioned that PF can tap power from future generations - AM did the same thing. he absorbed/destroyed countless 'future' universes. and something else i've pondered - if his 'antimatter' power was so great, i wonder if, as he destroyed the universes, if he wouldn't simultaneously be destroying that part of the PF that resides in each of those universes. i thin that has a weird logic. each universe he absorbed, he would grow stronger, while at the same time he would be obliterating the PF and making it weaker and weaker! just like he did to the monitor. and destroying a portion of the PF is not without precedent - goblin force did it, though on nowhere near the scale. nothing in the dc universe could withstand his power, perhaps he would devour the PF as well . . .


Well not really Leo i see what your trying to do there but as i believe Cosmic C said, when we're doing a marvel vs DC battle we have to let it occur on some sort of middle ground. The universes AM absorbed had nothing to do with Phoenix, he would not be absorbing its power or destroying part of it at all. It would be the jean at her full power Vs AM with his amassed power which as i have said before isnt enough because it wasnt the power of a whole multiverse and even if it was AM would just be wielding the power of a similar level to a creation of the Phoenix. Thats still not equal footing. Good try tho.

Of course Phoenix would handle AM.

<<Of course Phoenix would handle AM.>>

oohhhh, now i'm convinced . . .

and gs, i'm still not sure my theory is all that implausible. if it were ME doing the writing . . .

hehhe

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Of course Phoenix would handle AM.>>

oohhhh, now i'm convinced . . .

and gs, i'm still not sure my theory is all that implausible. if it were ME doing the writing . . .

hehhe
hand waving techinque by LT.

<<hand waving techinque by LT.>>

hand waving technique by leo to kg . . .

Good Lord. Talk about successful thread.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<hand waving techinque by LT.>>

hand waving technique by leo to kg . . .


You know it

Just cuz he sucked non-living universe makes him able to beat LT.

lol

<<Good Lord. Talk about successful thread.>.

ya, this was actually a fun one. well, expcept for kg's unwavering love affair with LT and gs's . . . uncomfortable affair with the ^%$#@! PF.

i'm glad digi started it.

heheh.

and you're conspicous with your NON-reply, draco. both sides have thrown around some good arguments. what do you think or starter of good threads recently?

I really don't have an opinion. Cosmic level characters have never been nor never will be my forte. Too much to remember.

I think that Anti-Monitor would win though. He destroyed entire universes. What's one more?

Originally posted by Draco69
I really don't have an opinion. Cosmic level characters have never been nor never will be my forte. Too much to remember.

I think that Anti-Monitor would win though. He destroyed entire universes. What's one more?

Well this one just happens to be guarded by beings who despite his amassed power are greater still. He is no match for Jean. Read the thread to find out why. LT would take him also.

<<I think that Anti-Monitor would win though. He destroyed entire universes. What's one more?>>

talk to galacticstorm and kg about THAT one . . .

Man GalacticStorm you must be the biggest fanboy in this place i mean is there a bigger fan boy? Your comic knowledge is limited to one single Character im sure that if someone only read X-men comics they would think that They are the ultimate team, the same would go for Avengers and any other Character.

Originally posted by Mider
Man GalacticStorm you must be the biggest fanboy in this place i mean is there a bigger fan boy? Your comic knowledge is limited to one single Character im sure that if someone only read X-men comics they would think that They are the ultimate team, the same would go for Avengers and any other Character. Why did this post set of my irony detector?

Originally posted by Mider
Man GalacticStorm you must be the biggest fanboy in this place i mean is there a bigger fan boy? Your comic knowledge is limited to one single Character im sure that if someone only read X-men comics they would think that They are the ultimate team, the same would go for Avengers and any other Character.

Who said i only read Xmen? I read all X-titles, Thor, Avengers, She-hulk, Exiles, occassionally FF and some Valiant titles and have done for over 10 years. You just admitted on another thread that you dont even really read either Marvel or DC so you who the hell do you think you are. Your ass should be playing humble in the presence of the knowledgeable

At least i research a broad range of comic Characters from MU, DCU, Chaos!, Top Cow, not just fan boy icons like yourself.

Wow too many insults make peace people.

OK Get back on subject or ur FIRED!!!! By the way insulting others is something that only fanboys do. So both of you just cool out. Don't make me put both of you in the same room.

Originally posted by Mider
At least i research a broad range of comic Characters from MU, DCU, Chaos!, Top Cow, not just fan boy icons like yourself.

I specialise in Marvel and know the ins and outs of virtually all of the marvel character sfeatured in comics today. I make a point of keeping up with the latest goings on in DC and occassionally purchase Batman. I cant believe ive spent the last few days debating with a child who knows nothing about the featured characters. Move along Mider i dont have time for you. Arent you tired after recess today? Go and have a nap or something.

Whats sad is that youve actually kept up with my posts in multiple threads maybe your a stalker? Or maybe you know that i was right.

Originally posted by Mider
Whats sad is that youve actually kept up with my posts in multiple threads maybe your a stalker? Or maybe you know that i was right.

Originally posted by Draco69
I really don't have an opinion. Cosmic level characters have never been nor never will be my forte. Too much to remember.

I think that Anti-Monitor would win though. He destroyed entire universes. What's one more?

Wait, wait, what are you talking about. Anti-Monitor would win against whole MU. In Marvel Universe, Living Tribunal or Phoenix alone could take A-M down and I think A-M would easily defeat such as Death, Eternity..., but LT would take him down and Phoenix would take him down. Now whole Marvel Universe without LT or PF would still take A-M down.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Wait, wait, what are you talking about. Anti-Monitor would win against whole MU. In Marvel Universe, Living Tribunal or Phoenix alone could take A-M down and I think A-M would easily defeat such as Death, Eternity..., but LT would take him down and Phoenix would take him down. Now whole Marvel Universe without LT or PF would still take A-M down.
Death is multiversal

There is also Oblivion, Infinity, Eternity.

Death is not even as strong as Galactus witch is proven when She is humiliated by The In-betweener who is as powerful as Galactus there all multiversal what are you talking about......your saying that not all the multiverse has ord and Chaos or love and hate or death and life......and space.......use logic if you did youd know that they should all be multiversal cause all there concepts should be multiversal as well.

Originally posted by kgkg
Death is multiversal

There is also Oblivion, Infinity, Eternity.

So, I knew that and I still said A-M would take those down and I think A-M would take them down easily, not those four combined, but one after another, actully, maybe also two of them at same time.

<<your saying that not all the multiverse has ord and Chaos or love and hate or death and life......and space.......use logic if you did youd know that they should all be multiversal cause all there concepts should be multiversal as well.>>

no, that's not what we're saying. and the concepts may or may NOT be. perhaps there's a universe that is ruled by chaos, or ruled strictly by order. regardless, what we're saying is that each individual universe has an INCARNATED ASPECT of each (maybe). ie - each individual universe has an eternity, an infinity, (eternity and infinity have been shown to be part of the same thing in one of the warlock issues, btw) order, chaos, etc . . . BUT none of the eternities are MULTIVERSAL beings - they exist throughout the mulitiverse, true, but only as a part of each universe. the CONCEPT MAY be multiversal, but the eternity ASPECT is not. this has been clearly demonstrated by appearances of eternity in 'what' if' universes. only LT and PF are truly mulitversal - ie the LT you see in the what ifs is the SAME LT that appears in our universe. there is truly only one LT. it's been my contention all along that only a being superceding the individual 'universes' (ie - a 'multiversal being') can possibly defeat AM.

we've been having a spot of trouble deciding just who IS multiversal, however.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<your saying that not all the multiverse has ord and Chaos or love and hate or death and life......and space.......use logic if you did youd know that they should all be multiversal cause all there concepts should be multiversal as well.>>

no, that's not what we're saying. and the concepts may or may NOT be. perhaps there's a universe that is ruled by chaos, or ruled strictly by order. regardless, what we're saying is that each individual universe has an INCARNATED ASPECT of each (maybe). ie - each individual universe has an eternity, an infinity, (eternity and infinity have been shown to be part of the same thing in one of the warlock issues, btw) order, chaos, etc . . . BUT none of the eternities are MULTIVERSAL beings - they exist throughout the mulitiverse, true, but only as a part of each universe. the CONCEPT MAY be multiversal, but the eternity ASPECT is not. this has been clearly demonstrated by appearances of eternity in 'what' if' universes. only LT and PF are truly mulitversal - ie the LT you see in the what ifs is the SAME LT that appears in our universe. there is truly only one LT. it's been my contention all along that only a being superceding the individual 'universes' (ie - a 'multiversal being') can possibly defeat AM.

we've been having a spot of trouble deciding just who IS multiversal, however.

With the exception of Phoenix and LT that is Leo who are no doubt multiversal and would both fry AM back to DC

Get ready folks.

In DC continuity, all the Infinite Earths were splintered of from one main Creation by Krona's blasphemous research into its origin. The original world itself was mainly cleaved in twain, a Positive Matter universe centered on Oa, and an anti-Matter Universe centered on Qward. The Monitor and Anti-Monitor were born of this accident as well.

The Anti-Monitor's ability to consume these worlds (as I understand it) arose from their common origin in/before Krona's trespass. By the time he came for the "original" positive universe (the one with the JLA, not the JSA) he had absorbed so many of the splinters that the Monitor was no longer a match for him.

In the Marvel continuity, before time as we understand it, there was an All-in-All mega god who was the only thing/being that there was. It eventually grew bored or something and decided to cease to be. The fracturing of this being's essence gave rise to the multiverse, with all its different cosms, cycles of expansion and collapse, magic realms, and what have you. The Infinity Gems were focal points for the remnants of this being's essence. It is over these worlds that the Living Tribunal holds jurisdiction, whose structure is kept fast by Atleza, and where the Phoenix Force catalyzes cycles of destruction and creation.

These are not part of the same continuum at all.

I do not think that the Anti-Monitor could absorb the MU, because they do not arise from the same prime origin. This would also explain why the IG didn't do anything when Darkseid found it in JLA/Avengers.

The Anti-Monitor may have sufficient raw power at his disposal to lay waste to the a universe by force, but that's not how he was doing it in Crisis. If I had o guess, the LT could simply bar his entry to the Multiverse that is his to protect, or, as he once thretenned when Zom's lock was cut, to destroy a Universe that the AM invaded in order to keep him from spreading his contmination from spreading to others.