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he totally whipped palpatines ass, I mean it wasn't even close, he had palpatine scurrying backwards on all fours like some histerical idiot, he only got killed because he wasnt expecting that from anakin, but damn he had skills with the saber, I wonder if he would have beaten Anakin if he was prepared...

Palpatine was faking losing because he knew that Anakin was coming. Mace didn't win completely.

Palpy was only acting like that to get Anakin on his side. He could "foresee" Anakin coming to his "rescue".

Nonsense. That whole idea is silly. Palpatine could have been killed VERY easily. To say he faked trhat loosing fighti- when Anakin wasn't evemn there- is a. totally impractical and b. just silly.

Mace won, fair and square.

I personally think Sidious "framed" Windu in order to turn Anakin.

We'll never know if Windu ever stood a chance, because Palpatine, to me anyway, looked like he was in control the entire time.

We can speculate all we like.

By all means, I wouldn't throw out the idea that he was beaten legit by Mace, because he could have been, but my inner skeptic tells me the only one who ever stood a remote chance of beating him was Yoda.

I stand firm that Yoda was about to defeat Palpatine until he lost his balance. I'm also not sure that Palpatine wasn't faking it and taking it easy on Mace, given that he is curled up like a little baby whining and crying one second, saying he is out of power and he is spent, but the next second he rips Windu with the lightning. I think he very well could have been faking it, having forseen Anakin would come back, and knowing he would attack Mace and turn.

Hey, was Palp talking to Anakin throught he force or does Anankin just imagine what he says while he waits in the temple?

Little off-topic but kinda goes with Ken's post.

He was weak because Windu was reflecting the Lightning into him- and clearly this was causing genuine harm, hence the scarring.

That had stopped by the time he struck back, which was only possible after Anakin cut Mace's arm off.

Mace was too good in a one-on-one situation for Palpatine. He won.

Mace is a pussy!

Palpatine faked it. It's so obvious!

Originally posted by Red Superfly
I personally think Sidious "framed" Windu in order to turn Anakin.

We'll never know if Windu ever stood a chance, because Palpatine, to me anyway, looked like he was in control the entire time.

We can speculate all we like.

By all means, I wouldn't throw out the idea that he was beaten legit by Mace, because he could have been, but my inner skeptic tells me the only one who ever stood a remote chance of beating him was Yoda.

In control? Mace disarmed him! He could have died, easily. If it was a Palpy plan, it was only sheer dumb luck that got it through.

So nonsense, it wasn't planned. He didn't want to lose that fight- he might have died! Then how stupid would he look?

If you were a boxer, and your opponent was wailing on you to the point where you couldn't even stand up, and then he stopped for an instant, would you suddenly have enough energy to stand up and go at him with the full force of your ability?

I wondered that myself, but i think its to show Anakins thoughts at that time.

Originally posted by Lazerlike42
If you were a boxer, and your opponent was wailing on you to the point where you couldn't even stand up, and then he stopped for an instant, would you suddenly have enough energy to stand up and go at him with the full force of your ability?

False analogy. He was only weak whilst being lightninged. We have seen Anakin recover quickly from that; why not Palpatine?

He hardly went on any massive acrobatic manoeuvres, anyway. He zapped an already crippled person. Wow.

Sorry, bit the scene shows NO logical sense behind the 'faked it' idea. As soon as Anakin was not there to see the fight that went out the window, rather like Mace.

ya see, there's this thing called The Force...

So what? Makes not a damn bit of difference. Palpatine lost a fair fight and then improvised-- as he has had to do in every film- to get Anakin to help him.

Which, of course, mirrors Luke's equally genuine distress in ROTJ.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Nonsense. That whole idea is silly. Palpatine could have been killed VERY easily. To say he faked trhat loosing fighti- when Anakin wasn't evemn there- is a. totally impractical and b. just silly.

Mace won, fair and square.

Yeah, that's why he easily sprang up yelling "ultimate power" and through more electricity into Mace than we've ever seen before. Yeah, he was really beaten... Ian was even overacting like "oh no, please" over doing it so it would be clear what was going on.

No way! Mace isn't the toughest Jedi. The only reason he got advantage over Palpatine is becuase prior to facing Mace he'd already kill 3 Jedi's. Thus Palpatine became exhausted.

Palpatine needed to get into trouble so Anakin would sense it and go to his rescue...

that's how I see it anyway... it works for me.

Mace is a pussy.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
In control? Mace disarmed him! He could have died, easily. If it was a Palpy plan, it was only sheer dumb luck that got it through.

So nonsense, it wasn't planned. He didn't want to lose that fight- he might have died! Then how stupid would he look?

Dumb luck? This is Lucas we are talking about here.

Anakin's dumb luck in Episode I where he instinctively pressed the right buttons to fly a ship into the Trade Feds control thingy, and blow it up is Lucas way of telling us that it was the force.

Palpatine had the instinct that Anakin would return, his instincts served him well obviously. Someone as wise as Palpatine would be smart enough to foresee Anakins decision and his impecable timing. Luck had nothing to do with it.

That is one explanation. Dumb luck is never dumb luck in the Star Wars galaxy.

The jury is out on this one. I perosnally think Sidious led Mace into thinking he could be beat, and tempted him into finishing him off, in order to force Anakin into his ultimate decision. I really believe Sidious had Mace eating out of the palm of his hand on this one.

I won't throw out the fact that Anakin merely saved Palps from Mace's wrath, either, I am as of yet undecided completely, but from here, I believe Sidious set Mace's ass up.

Originally posted by mephistodesigns
Yeah, that's why he easily sprang up yelling "ultimate power" and through more electricity into Mace than we've ever seen before. Yeah, he was really beaten... Ian was even overacting like "oh no, please" over doing it so it would be clear what was going on.

yes, he was hamming it up to make sure he snared Anakin.

But he was giving out no more lighting than before. It worked simply because Windu had lost his sabre.

Sorry, but there is no way in any rationality that he faked losing that fight. The whole concept is ridiculous.

People are making it seem like that he became some sort of God after Anakin cut Mace's arm off. No... he stood up and gave another blast- and he was not moving with any vigour either.

This has become a self-feeding fantasy that people are buying into that has nothing to do with reason or logic.

Mace won the fight- pure and simple.

"Mace Windu is the hardest jedi!"

Gross

EXACTLY!!!

The simple reasoning I have for saying Mace isnt the "hardest"(wtf) is that Mace dies, yet Yoda and Kenobi dont. And Kenobi survived who I believe to be the strongest jedi/sith, Anakin.

It wasn't a fair fight at all. Mace Windu had Jedi's accompany him to arrest Palpatine. He clearly was outnumber.

Originally posted by Red Superfly
Dumb luck? This is Lucas we are talking about here.

Anakin's dumb luck in Episode I where he instinctively pressed the right buttons to fly a ship into the Trade Feds control thingy, and blow it up is Lucas way of telling us that it was the force.

Palpatine had the instinct that Anakin would return, his instincts served him well obviously. Someone as wise as Palpatine would be smart enough to foresee Anakins decision and his impecable timing. Luck had nothing to do with it.

That is one explanation. Dumb luck is never dumb luck in the Star Wars galaxy.

The jury is out on this one. I perosnally think Sidious led Mace into thinking he could be beat, and tempted him into finishing him off, in order to force Anakin into his ultimate decision. I really believe Sidious had Mace eating out of the palm of his hand on this one.

I won't throw out the fact that Anakin merely saved Palps from Mace's wrath, either, I am as of yet undecided completely, but from here, I believe Sidious set Mace's ass up.

That's the whole point- it would HAVE to have been dumb luck, because Mace could have easily killed Sidious both durng and after that fight. Sidious lost his sabre! That is BEYOND palnning. After that he is defenceless. Mace could so easily have finished it there. No way did Palpatine plan that.

Hence it was not dumb luck... because that was not the plan.

There is not a chance in hell Palpatine would have been willing to nearly die like that.

Originally posted by WindDancer
It wasn't a fair fight at all. Mace Windu had Jedi's accompany him to arrest Palpatine. He clearly was outnumber.

Whether that is so or not- the others seemed pretty irrelevant- it doesn't change the base nature of the situation.

yeah 'hardest' is a british expression meaning 'tough' or 'tough as nails'

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That's the whole point- it would HAVE to have been dumb luck, because Mace could have easily killed Sidious both durng and after that fight. Sidious lost his sabre! That is BEYOND palnning. After that he is defenceless. Mace could so easily have finished it there. No way did Palpatine plan that.

Hence it was not dumb luck... because that was not the plan.

There is not a chance in hell Palpatine would have been willing to nearly die like that.

DEFENSELESS??? you call being able to summon and fire lightening from your hands defenseless? Good lord, he SPRANG UP, YELLED "Unlimited power!" and fired SOOOOO much lightening at Mace that it through him half a mile away. Yeah....I can see why you'd call him defenseless.

The force has nothing to do with recovery. We saw in ESB when Luke tried to move the X-Wing that a person can become fatigued, physically and mentally, while/by/in connection with using the force (true, Luke didn't know what he was doing completely at the time as Yoda showed him, but it's equivalent to a person used to running 10 miles getting exhausted when trying to run 20, and then successfully running 20 with ease after more training). Did the force help Luke recover then? No! If Palpatine really lost, he would have been too exhausted from giving everything he had to trying to fry Windu and he would not have been able to recover and yell "Unlimited Power!" while using lightning even stronger than he did at first! (great point mephisto)

Originally posted by Soda
yeah 'hardest' is a british expression meaning 'tough' or 'tough as nails'


thanks, we use that in the states too.

The other masters Mace took with him may as well have stayed back at the temple. They were hopeless, Mace would have been better taking Anakin at least he would have been some help. I guess thats not the story though is it?

Yeah, of course he'd have been better off taking Anakin... that's the point isn't it? The jedi don't trust Anakin, which leads to his and their undoings...

Originally posted by Ushgarak

There is not a chance in hell Palpatine would have been willing to nearly die like that.

Are you sure?

I get what you are saying, but we all know how confident Palpatine is.

We know he is headstrong, and has a will of iron, and unmatched arrogance. We know the force is directly linked to the user's will.

To me anyway, Palpatine's utter arrogance led him to believe Anakin would come to his rescue, see that he was in mortal danger, and save him.

Palpatine knew that Anakin was hesitant. He needed to do something that would make Anakin decide there and then. What better way than to make him decide between letting die an old friend, or saving him? How about swaying his decision by making it look as though the Jedi are the aggressors? That would make sense.

I don't want to make Palpatine out to be some sort of God, but he knew even if he lowerred his guard, Mace could not kill him, Anakin would be there. Palpatine's confidence became his will.

The fact that this outline heavily mirrors the situation in ROTJ where Luke shows the Emperor just how overly confident he is, tells us that he has a reason to be over confident. Palpatine, up until ROTJ, has always had his way, he thinks he's invincible, because he has proven to HIMSELF that his will cannot be undone. His confidence in ROTJ comes from the fact he has NEVER lost. The only kink in his armour is Vader himself and the love for his son.

Thats why I think the Emperor owned the day.

According to the Canon thread (posted by Ushgarak Lol) the novelzation is canon.... so someone that's read that what's it say on this anything definitive?

Originally posted by koolruningz
The other masters Mace took with him may as well have stayed back at the temple. They were hopeless, Mace would have been better taking Anakin at least he would have been some help. I guess thats not the story though is it?


No Mace needed to have those masters to back him up. They were there to arrest an alledge Sith Lord. Mace Windu had to resort to back up. Anakin reported to Mace that Palpatine was a sith lord. Fearing that Anakin would turn agaisn't him (which he did eventually) Mace order him to stay.

Which returns to the entire matter of if Mace had just showed comradery for ONCE in his life to Anakin, given that they are BROTHERS in a very real sense, Anakin would have felt important, felt cared about, felt like he was being treated like an adult instead of a five year old, and helped Windu annihalate Sidious and ended 20 years of oppression before it began. As bad as the council in general treated Anakin (not all of it unjustified but by no means justified either), Mace was by far the worst. That's reason enough he's not the best Jedi.... the hardest/toughest is another question I realize....

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
Yeah, of course he'd have been better off taking Anakin... that's the point isn't it? The jedi don't trust Anakin, which leads to his and their undoings...

My point was more geared towards how useless the other 3 masters were. I thought they would have put up a better fight.

lol they were horrible.... that is one of my problems with the film I don't think ANY Jedi could go that easily so I think that was a little rushed/overdone.

yeah, they were useless.

What a dissapointment Kit Fisto turned out to be. Loser. lol.

Originally posted by Lazerlike42
Which returns to the entire matter of if Mace had just showed comradery for ONCE in his life to Anakin, given that they are BROTHERS in a very real sense, Anakin would have felt important, felt cared about, felt like he was being treated like an adult instead of a five year old, and helped Windu annihalate Sidious and ended 20 years of oppression before it began. As bad as the council in general treated Anakin (not all of it unjustified but by no means justified either), Mace was by far the worst. That's reason enough he's not the best Jedi.... the hardest/toughest is another question I realize....

very good point.

Sorry, I dont buy it.

Yes, Palps swayed Anakin into the position he was in and framed Mace into being the bad guy, but didn't really know whether he would show up.

Even so, I doubt that Palps would want to do that much harm to himself, just to try to sway Anakin. The risk was too high, and it was pure luck that Anakin showed up when he did, when Palps was in defeat.

Palps could've easily killed Mace, like he did with the other jedi and told Anakin if and when he showed up, that the Jedi were trying to take over and tried to kill him, even though he tried to plead with them for mercy and understanding.

Palps only weakened up when he saw Anakin coming to his side. But all before that:

FACE IT, MACE WHOOPED HIS ASS, even though the battle wasn't as spectacular as is was pitched to be. I thought for Palps first ever seen battle, especially with the number 2 jedi, that it would've been a little more heavy and ferocious, as it seemed to look like in the trailer.

I'll just disagree completely, everyone is entitled to their opinion of this one.

well I guess Lucas or someone else who said this was right.

"This movie will provide more questions and debate than answers."

Yeah, you can argue logically about both sides of this arguement and still end up at square one. It's merely down to a case of believing one theory or another.

Unless of course Lucas explains it officially.

well please answer me this, does palps lightsaber fall out the window?

if it dosnt and anakin didnt show up he would have just used the force to grab it and continue the fight, but when he saw anakin come he dicided otherwiese...

this all depends on whether or not his saber falls out the window or not...

he does obviously have another with yoda...i dont remember tho..

Yes, it goes out the window.

so is mace a better fighter than yoda since he did come so close to winning?

lol if you read a few thread around here, you'll see that I am ADAMENT that Yoda had Sidious beat at the end, when he finally throws all of Sidious' energy back at him, but the kickback makes Yoda fall down, and he bangs around and gets hurt so he has to run away. If you watch the movie it REALLY looks like Palpatine takes a huge blow at that point, and if Yoda hadn't fallen, he could have done any number of things to the poor ol' senator....

and also in AOTC Obi-wan tells Anakin that if he practices he will be able to rival even Master Yoda, not even Master Windu

Originally posted by Red Superfly
What a dissapointment Kit Fisto turned out to be. Loser. lol.

If i remember correctly he is the last to fall so what does that make Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin? Does anyone remember how the first 2 masters die? i recall Fisto getting sliced across the chest.

That's not important, because we all know that Yoda is number 1 Jedi and Obi was trying to make Anikian feel like he was powerful.

EDIT: I have it in this order: Sidious kills Kit Fisto, Sarese Tiin and Agen Kolar with ease...



Mace won the fight legit. However, Palpy, was probably faking it when Anikian was just about to open the door or when he saw Anikian, to lower Windu's guard. But there's no doubt that had Anikian not come in just at that moment, IV, V, VI would of never happened.

Now i only read page One so far but i have to say that i think Sid was beaten but i think he took solice in knowing Ani was comeing after all he knew that Vader would be in trouble on the molten planet i mean he was getting his ship prepped before the fight ended. so thats my take

Believe me, I would LOVE to think that Mace totally owned Palpatine and it would make me incredibly (and pathetically lol) happy, but for the reasons previously delineated by myself and others (especially mephistodesings) in this thread I just can't.

Originally posted by Lazerlike42
lol if you read a few thread around here, you'll see that I am ADAMENT that Yoda had Sidious beat at the end, when he finally throws all of Sidious' energy back at him, but the kickback makes Yoda fall down, and he bangs around and gets hurt so he has to run away. If you watch the movie it REALLY looks like Palpatine takes a huge blow at that point, and if Yoda hadn't fallen, he could have done any number of things to the poor ol' senator.... I agree on that.

Yoda took Palpatines best and repelled it right back.

Sidious even tried to flee right at the start of the fight.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
Palpatine needed to get into trouble so Anakin would sense it and go to his rescue...

that's how I see it anyway... it works for me.

Mace is a pussy.

I dont care what you people say about Papls playing with Mace. No one simply 'plays' around with Mace Windu.

If you want to get technical, go back and watch the movie again and you people will see that in one of the scenes Palps look scared. Mace was cutting loose on Palps and if it wasnt for Anakin, we would have another dead Sith Lord.

If Mace is so great, why didn't he use his Jedi reflexes to block Anikan's saber? Or sense Anakin's decision to help Sidious? Or use his remaining hand to absorb the lightning a la Yoda?

Originally posted by Lazerlike42
If Mace is so great, why didn't he use his Jedi reflexes to block Anikan's saber? Or sense Anakin's decision to help Sidious? Or use his remaining hand to absorb the lightning a la Yoda?

The only mistake Mace Windu made in that fight was not realizing what was or 'happened' to Anakin. Mace was only concentrating on killing Sidious. Sidious got beat and he isnt not the God everyone here thinks he is ...

Oh yea ... If he is so powerful why did he basically try and run from Yoda? What type of a Sith Lord runs from a Jedi?

I really dont know what so say on Paply playing with Mace. I dont think he was. I just dont see why he would use force lighting at such a close range and expect Mace to block it from the short distance.

On another point I am shocked and happy that Yoda indeed did overpower Sidious.

I knew Lucas wouldnt punk Yoda.

its all an act to get mace's ego a boost...who can honestly say they can strike fear into the face of a sith lord...its how the sith fight..manipulation...dooku did it by taunting obi wan in episode 2 to catch him off guard...and palpatine does it too mace to make him feel like hes gaining the advantage...at any point in time he could have killed mace...he lost his saber right when anakin was walking into the room a little ironic dont you think...what wasn't planned was the lightning reflection back at him...but im sure he could have killed mace if he wanted too...that was a vital point in the turning of anakin it left him with a split second choice...go on the side of the dude wiht eternal life...or go with the guy who's basicly told you to stfu ever since the start of the movie...hmmmm...sidious is the strongest no doubt...for example he throws senate pods with little ease while yoda was a hard time controlling one...

yoda is the hardest jedi, hands down.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
I really dont know what so say on Paply playing with Mace. I dont think he was. I just dont see why he would use force lighting at such a close range and expect Mace to block it from the short distance.

On another point I am shocked and happy that Yoda indeed did overpower Sidious.

I knew Lucas wouldnt punk Yoda.

Sidious always uses force lightning on the Jedi he fights. I mean, other then force lighting, anything else would be a struggle between him and the person he is fighting,

sidious fought like a girl.

That's what I thought at first, but it's not true. Yoda doesn't have a hard time throwing one, he is taking so long because he is spinning the pos around and around to give it more force when he heaves it. If he just wanted to toss it aimlessly like Sidious he probably could have.

Originally posted by Malic Clanorian
...for example he throws senate pods with little ease while yoda was a hard time controlling one... Yoda stopped the pod in mid-air and spun it like a top and threw it back at Sidious.

Stopping one is harder than throwing one.

Sidous even tried to run after Yoda force shoved him across his office into his chair.

Yoda won that fight.

Originally posted by Malic Clanorian
its all an act to get mace's ego a boost...who can honestly say they can strike fear into the face of a sith lord...its how the sith fight..manipulation...dooku did it by taunting obi wan in episode 2 to catch him off guard...and palpatine does it too mace to make him feel like hes gaining the advantage...at any point in time he could have killed mace...he lost his saber right when anakin was walking into the room a little ironic dont you think...what wasn't planned was the lightning reflection back at him...but im sure he could have killed mace if he wanted too...that was a vital point in the turning of anakin it left him with a split second choice...go on the side of the dude wiht eternal life...or go with the guy who's basicly told you to stfu ever since the start of the movie...hmmmm...sidious is the strongest no doubt...for example he throws senate pods with little ease while yoda was a hard time controlling one...

Sidious is a coward who tried running from a fight ... "For everything you are, your still no Jedi." - Mace Windu

and yoda got his @$$ shot with bolts of lightning...yoda struggles with handling all kinda of objects...he had a hard time lifting the X Wing...he had a hard time lifting that big pole from falling on anakin and obi wan...and dont tell me its beacsue they were too big becasue yoda says size matters not in episde 5 lol :P

There is nothing mentioned in the movie that indicates that Sidious knew Anakin was coming. Dont get me wrong, I think Sidious played Anakin when Sidious was sitting in the window like a little coward. I also think Mace shouldv'e shut the hell up and just took his head off.

Originally posted by Malic Clanorian
and yoda got his @$$ shot with bolts of lightning...yoda struggles with handling all kinda of objects...he had a hard time lifting the X Wing...he had a hard time lifting that big pole from falling on anakin and obi wan...and dont tell me its beacsue they were too big becasue yoda says size matters not in episde 5 lol :P

Your right, Yoda did get hit with lighting but he also got up and stood his ground. Yoda had no problem lifting that X-Wing, he did it with his eyes close.

you cant tell me there was no struggle lifting the xwing it was so obvious...it doesnt matter if you do it wiht ur eyes closed either lol that doesnt matter lol

Not to mention that when Yoda lifted the X-wing he was near death. Further, if size matters not, then throwing aside two guards as if they were less than nothing would be the same as throwing a huge senate pod!

Originally posted by Malic Clanorian
you cant tell me there was no struggle lifting the xwing it was so obvious...it doesnt matter if you do it wiht ur eyes closed either lol that doesnt matter lol

Yoda was also 900 years old ...

force doesnt age

Originally posted by Malic Clanorian
force doesnt age

Still waiting to hear how Yoda could handle the guards but not the pods if size matters not....

The force doesnt age but a person's control over it does.

Like I said earlier, if Sidious is this great Sith Lord then why does he try and flee the fight after yoda gets up? Sidious was full of fear when he and Mace went at it and he was full of fear when Yoda took the lightning and got up.

lol well in the sith code fear makes you stronger lol so i guess thats good? lol the guy killed 3 jedi masters in 2 seconds give em credit lol sorry he cant do it all himself...but he did fight well an i still believe its an act when he fights mace..and yoda admits he failed so obviously he lost his fight lol..and it should be the same throwing pods and senate guards..yoda says that rocks and the xwing are no different lol so you'll have to talk to george lucas on that one

I don't think so... as long as we accept that Yoda didn't get killed like some people are trying to say, the problem goes away!