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Anyone notice, the scene in the theater when Palpatine is telling Anakin the sith story, about how Plageious can stop ppl from dying, he then goes onto say his pupil killed him while he sleeps and then sort of grins, so I assume he killed his master?

yeah that's definitely the impression given.... I think there was actually a confirmation of this. It may have come from EU thought I am not sure. It's around here somewhere...

indeed

yeah, definitely looked like he killed him. Still don't think Palps really knows how to control midichlorians though.

but if he did shouldnt he know how to keep someone alive? Yet he says he and vader can learn it together.

I think that was just a trick to keep Anakin at bay. Remember, Palpatine tells Yoda Anakin could kill both of them. If he makes Anakin feel like they need to find the secret TOGETHER, it gives him a way to keep himself safe. In fact, he could be correcting Plagiues' mistake. Plagiues probably just gave away all the info like Palpatine said, and seeing as he himself took advantage of this error he is probably safeguarding himself from it.

ah interesting theory but I think he might not really knowand thats one reason he would allow a person more powerful than himself to live so he could increase his chance to learn the ability.

Read the official novel. When Anakin finds out Palpy is Sidious, he asks about the "Sith Legend" and Palpy confirms that he killed Plagius.

oh ok then guess thats settled, so then he lied about not knowing how to keep ppl alive?

definetly. He really made it sound like he knew how to do it...then he says the "we can find out together". I'd have been like 'hold up, you DON'T know how to do this? And I turned to the dark side for something I possibly could have figured out on my own?'

Originally posted by mephistodesigns
definetly. He really made it sound like he knew how to do it...then he says the "we can find out together". I'd have been like 'hold up, you DON'T know how to do this? And I turned to the dark side for something I possibly could have figured out on my own?'

lol yeah, how exaclty would you go about learning something like that anyway?

Originally posted by Hegemon875
lol yeah, how exaclty would you go about learning something like that anyway? Plagueis had to learn it somehow.
I just HAD to post in this thread! I am also not conviced that it WASN'T Plagueis who orchestrated Anakins conception.

wow i never thought about that. But why?

Midichlorians are brought up for almost no reason in Episode 1 in relation to Anakins high count. Then mentioned again in episode 3 when Palpatine tells Anakin that Darth Plagueis could even influence the midichlorians to create life. This seems extremely suggestive to me.

Originally posted by Darth Plagueis
Midichlorians are brought up for almost no reason in Episode 1 in relation to Anakins high count. Then mentioned again in episode 3 when Palpatine tells Anakin that Darth Plagueis could even influence the midichlorians to create life. This seems extremely suggestive to me.

Stumbled upon something you have.

yes, maybe mentioned in TPM so that when we heard Palps "lie" in ROTS, we'd know what he was lying about... I don't know why Lucas through this in there, it only confuses fans and gives us more to debate about. Maybe he'll clarify on the DVD Commentary.

Midiclhorians were brought up in Episode one as a really bad way to show that Anakin was incredibly powerful, not as an intended link to this scene in Episode 3. They are brought up in 3 again because they are an established premise that fits into the current situation.

queeg argued in another thread that Plagueis couldn't have done it because he died too long ago....but that makes no sense because we have NO IDEA when Sidious killed his master. From my point of view, about 10 years prior to episode 1 (Around the time of Anakins miracle birth) seems right, because then Sidious would have sought out an apprentice, and would have been training Darth Maul for the 10 years leading up to episode 1.

no I meant why concieve or arrange conception of anakin.

If there is any book that I would love to read right now, it would be how Palpatine became a Sith apprentice and eventually a Master. Damn that would be a good read right now.

So he can have someone powerful enough to eliminate all the jedi hence destroying any threat against him and any barrier between him and the rule of the galaxy.."And you young Skywalker...we will watch your career with GREAT interest."

EDIT: palpatine book=great read

but wouldnt that person also be a threat?

Originally posted by Lazerlike42
Midiclhorians were brought up in Episode one as a really bad way to show that Anakin was incredibly powerful, not as an intended link to this scene in Episode 3. They are brought up in 3 again because they are an established premise that fits into the current situation. Thats one opinion, all of which are valid since we don't know....but what about that funny look that Palps gives Anakin just as he is mentioning this? And why would he need to lie about Plagueis' powers? His own, maybe, but he wasn't trying to get Anakin loyal to his former (and dead) master.

no I agree with you in part.... I don't personally think Plagius did it, however, I also think the look Palpatine gives Anakin is very interesting and could mean one of the two created Anakin. The look means a lot. It's not conclusive, but it means a lot.

The biggest problem with Palpatine creating Anakin as part of his plan is that given the random nature of how the Queen's ship ended up on Tatooine, the random nature in which Anakin was found, given that he survived 8 years in a very difficult environment, given how random it was that he was freed and how, and that his mother wasn't and so on and so on, there's just too much for even Palpatine to orchestrate.

For this reason, I hold the belief that the force created him on its own, and the force directed events such that he was found by Qui-gon, the most force-in-tune Jedi, and one who'd make sure he was trained in spite of everyone else's refusal... it was the complete and pure will of the force in other words.

I think this comment explained by Palpatine just enforces the fact that The Force itself can in fact create life. Palpatine knew Anakin was born of the force..not any one person. This alone tells Anakin it is possible to create life through the force. He just never knew it was an ability one force-wielder could learn until Palpatine told him so. I think it was either true, palpatine knows and never shows Anakin. Or Palpatine lied to Anakin to lure him in knowing about his fear of losing Padme

that's how sith succession works, you either kill your master or he kills you.

Originally posted by Lazerlike42
no I agree with you in part.... I don't personally think Plagius did it, however, I also think the look Palpatine gives Anakin is very interesting and could mean one of the two created Anakin. The look means a lot. It's not conclusive, but it means a lot.

The biggest problem with Palpatine creating Anakin as part of his plan is that given the random nature of how the Queen's ship ended up on Tatooine, the random nature in which Anakin was found, given that he survived 8 years in a very difficult environment, given how random it was that he was freed and how, and that his mother wasn't and so on and so on, there's just too much for even Palpatine to orchestrate.

For this reason, I hold the belief that the force created him on its own, and the force directed events such that he was found by Qui-gon, the most force-in-tune Jedi, and one who'd make sure he was trained in spite of everyone else's refusal... it was the complete and pure will of the force in other words. I would answer this by suggesting that Plagueis created Anakin WITHOUT Sidious knowledge, perhaps as a future replacement for Sidious. Sidious kills his master, and Anakin is left on Tattoine because noone knows he is there. Only after 10 years does the chance landing happen (making it a little less "convenient" and Anakin is brought to the forefront. I would imagine that sometime after that Sidiuos realises the possibility that Anakin was brought about by his former master, another possible explanation for that look and MUCH more reason for him to desire Vader as his own apprentice. I just don't see the force as something that has a mind of it's own in these matters, the force surrounds us and can be tapped into and manipulated, but doesn't do anything on it,s own, it is not sentient it is a ...well, "force". To create life, the force would HAVE to have been manipulated...


But by whom??

You're right insofar as that that is a plausible explanation for how Plagius could have created Anakin, but is saying that the force doesn't have a will of it's own you are incorrect. Jedi are always talking about the will of the force; it's a pretty generally accepted idea.

But at any point do we ever see the force acting on it's own? Would you consider it the will of the force that so many Jedi (including children) die? Surely if the force can create life (which I doubt, unless being coerced) than it could prevent death?

Well to compare it to theology, it would be the same question as to say, is it the will of God that there are homeless people? The answer would be no He doesn't WANT it to be that way and He doesn't personally do anything to make it happen, He simply chooses not to do anything to prevent it. The Force can be (and often has been such as here) compared to God. In other words, the Force wouldn't want everyone to die, no, but neither would it do anything to prevent it.

I'm giving this analogy because the comparison is very similar and the answer to the theological version of the question has been debated for 2000 (or more) years and thusly holds the weight of 2 millenia of great thinkers.

I don't think this question has an easy answer...as to the conception of Anakin and the path of the chosen one. There are many possibilities...but if Palps did create Anakin...he could have never intended for Qui-Gon to discover him. THAT could have been the intervention of the Force.

maybe the force was sick and tired of getting manipulated all the time so it made Palpatine take over and kill all those pesky Jedi....

Originally posted by Lazerlike42
Well to compare it to theology, it would be the same question as to say, is it the will of God that there are homeless people? The answer would be no He doesn't WANT it to be that way and He doesn't personally do anything to make it happen, He simply chooses not to do anything to prevent it. The Force can be (and often has been such as here) compared to God. In other words, the Force wouldn't want everyone to die, no, but neither would it do anything to prevent it.

I'm giving this analogy because the comparison is very similar and the answer to the theological version of the question has been debated for 2000 (or more) years and thusly holds the weight of 2 millenia of great thinkers. Sure, I have heard the comparisons for years, but people cannot actually use religion in the way the force is used. I can't wipe peoples mind by waving my hand in front of them, or "Jesus push" them out of my way.

what then would be your interperatation of the meaning of the term "will of the force?"

Well, since you only hear Jedi say it, I would take it as THEIR interpretation of how the force should be used, sort of their philosophy of things. Do you think the Sith give a damn about (or even aknowledge) any 'will of the force'. And at the end of ROTS, the "dark side" of the force is in control. Come to think of it, if there are dark and light sides of the force, how could you possibly identify an overall 'will'?

Well I would say the Sith ABUSE the Force. They go against it's will. They do what it doesn't "want." None of that requires that the Force has the ability to stop the Sith from doing this, any more than an oxycontin pill has the ability to stop a guy from abusing it.

Lol and yes I know you will say exactly oxycontin doesn't have a conciousness or a will nor does the Force, but I would say the Force is something in between God and a pill.

lol....But then why is there an aknowledged dark side? I see the force more like nature...we have a perception of how it should be, we can use (and abuse) it, we TRY to control and predict it, it can be powerfull, beautifull, destructive, etc. But it doesn't exactly have a mind (will) of it's own. "It surrounds us, binds us..."
It doesn't create life directly, although it is tied into the process, and we are about to the point where we can manipulate it to....

I also wish to thank Super Shadow's History section for this paragraph
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
super shadow isn't really an accurate source
just ask any other member in this forum
and welcome to kmc by the way

Thanks, but for now I trust super shadow because this also deals in the books of which I have read front to back. This is a direct line coming from one of the books I have on my shelf

In the novel our friend palpy says he killed his master, Plaguies.

if you want to trust supershadow, thats your disfunction.
please however, dont quote him here.

Originally posted by mephistodesigns
definetly. He really made it sound like he knew how to do it...then he says the "we can find out together". I'd have been like 'hold up, you DON'T know how to do this? And I turned to the dark side for something I possibly could have figured out on my own?'

if I'm not mistaken, Palpatine KNEW how to do it (since Plageis taught him everything) but was never actually able to ACHIVE it. That's why he needed Anakin, because he was more powerful.

Well perhaps Plagius knew all of these powers, but Sidious didn't. The goal of the Sith is to exact revenge against the Jedi for the decimation of the Sith ranks. If Sidious had knew of all this power, why waste his time trying to train Anakin. So Sidious did not know of this power. Plagius did because if he didn't there would be no reason for Lucas throw that in there. It would onyl confuse everybody. My belief is that Sidious was hoping Anakin to figure this power out on his own and then once Anakin took care of everybody and everything and was in 100% control of the galaxy, then Sidious was to kill him and assume his position. But this never happened because Vader killed Sidious before Vader learned this power.

Also, because in the official star wars visual dictionary, it says this "Sidious was happy to know that Anakin's rage remained intact, but he soon realized that Anakin was not the perfect tool to exact revenge upon the Jedi."

Sidious just wanted to Anakin to exact revenge becaus ehe couldn't and there was no one to teach him to so he saw that Anakin had a habit of excelling and learning things of his own, waited until Anakin's stress became overwhelming and took advantage of that. Some other people on the forum say that Sidious was nto capable of plotting such a story; but isn't every single "important role-playing" even in I, II and III plotted by Darth Sidious.

Originally posted by Hegemon875
but if he did shouldnt he know how to keep someone alive? Yet he says he and vader can learn it together.

When anakin is just a pile of Ash, you see Palpy come to him, duck and put a hand on top of his face. I think at this moment there, he was stopping anikin from dying.

lol.... And what if he kept anakin alive with his force all the time. The suit just made his burden much lesser.

Vaders quote: "I MUST obey my master" seems to fit this.
As does: "Nothing can STOP that now"

Stop? Now? Speaking from experience?

Crap. Gone for a month and all this nonsense pops up....


ss and me in a thread together.

please shoot me now.

Well.......... I agree. SS has a reputation all over the net and it ain't good.