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Palpetine was pwned by Mace in Episode III in Saber Skills.... The novel kinda made it seem like he possibly might have been toying with mace?....Not so!... The movie clearly shows that Mace and Vapaad were superior....if anything Mace held back a bit...Yoda proved that his power in the last scene of their fight was superior to Palps ...although his light little green butt was knocked for a loop...he did absorb all Palps power and appeared to EASILY reverse it....Yes different surroundings he would have defeated palps no prob...ill leave it for discussion and debate from Sith lovers from here...lol....

yeah I agree I've been posting that thought all over this place all day

I looked for a thread of this but just the Mace one showed up...Place to discuss both of them pwning...lol..or for Sith lovers to pointlessly argue with those of us who know the truth...HAHAHA

you should have said sidious with kyber crystal and without kyber crystal. its ok ur still a newbie.

The problem is simply that the emperor in ROTJ wouldn't exist if he had been beaten by Yoda or Mace....so, if they DIDN"T win, they COULDN'T win.

amen

please tell me you're kidding about the kyber crystal....

crystal shmstal, sidious was lucky in both instenses

Originally posted by Lazerlike42
please tell me you're kidding about the kyber crystal....

kyber is EU folks this is Episode III thread not EU thread.....and not saying that Palps should have died at their hands ..we know that he has to live for the next few movies...just that he was proven inferior to these two Jedi masters....poor argument so far on palps behalf so far.....lol....

Battle is not always about strength and skill...smarts count for a lot, and that is where Sids had the edge, he outplanned and outsmarted everyone.

I think it also shows how superior Mace and Yoda were to the other masters. The posse Mace took with him to arrest Palpatine was a total waste of time, he would have been better taking 3P0 and Padme.

plagueis.....I agree in overall scheme he outsmarted....but in the one on one battles with Mace and Yoda(which is what this thread is about)...I thought he looked pretty stupid and pwned....he underestimated Yoda for sure force power wise....Mace I dont think he ever really even tried to estimate....he was just pwned...Damn Mace kicked his butt! He might have hoped Annie would show through visions but the Episode III movie gave no insight to that.......He just got whooped!

Originally posted by SithKiller
plagueis.....I agree in overall scheme he outsmarted....but in the one on one battles with Mace and Yoda(which is what this thread is about)...I thought he looked pretty stupid and pwned....he underestimated Yoda for sure force power wise....Mace I dont think he ever really even tried to estimate....he was just pwned...Damn Mace kicked his butt! He might have hoped Annie would show through visions but the Episode III movie gave no insight to that.......He just got whooped! You know I sort of agree, but the bottom line is that in the film, Sids defeated both of them. Period.

I will destroy the Kyber Crystal myself. Do you see Palpy toting around a huge red crystal? No?

palps didnt defeat Mace....annie did ..sure he blasted him after Annie already finished the fight that was just rubbing salt in the wound and MAYBE trying to kill him...but Annie beat Mace not Palps...this is Sideous vs mace and vs Yoda face it...Palps showed he was a biotch....on both accounts....After seeing it you cannot deny that Mace saberwhipped his azz...and Yoda just sneared and over force powered Sideous...(I already love this thread!)

Ani cut his hand off, after which Mace was still alive. Sids blasted his ass with major megawattage, after which he was toast. Darth Sisious killed Mace Windu.

grasping at straws Plagueis...lol....the fight was over till Annie stepped in.....then it was once again over....Palps just went for leftovers....Annie beat mace with a cheap shot...he said it himself.....and this can be discussed in proper thread but ....Mace was not shown dead...just blasted out in to the skyline...lol.....how do you know he didnt go through some naked ladies window and land in her bed or land on a flying car etc....lmao...anyways thats another thread ...Mace lives for EU!...lol

Given a person who would win 99 out of 100 fights with another, it would not be correct to say that that person is more powerful than the other simply because the one time they fought it happened to be that one time.

I'm not making a direct comparison, simply a conceptual illustration.

Sidious was down but never out...he played Mace into position to set Anakin up for his fall from grace...we're talking about an evil being who manipulated a whole universe and had just about all of the Jedi killed.

Yoda fell and ran...Sidious fell and laughed his ass off! Damn I hate that guy!

huh?...now i must consult the chosen drink...AGAIN....lol.....hey I need sober folks to back me Mace and Yoda here! Wheres Ush and his ghastly saber...he will go just on the movie...(I hope)...(he scares me with his shield and saber)....LOL....really he always direct and to the point....Ush what is your take on what was shown to us on this subject in episode III?.....(had to edit shadowking got in ther before I finshed typing) ummm From what I saw in the movie no no no Sidious plainly got whooped by mace...Yoda force beat him yes fell and couldnt hang on but already proved Sidious force power no match for his pwn....and Sidious laughing while dangling that was the most comical part of the whole movie....Maybe he is more powerful just been consulting with the chosen drink!!!....lol.....If I was about to fall to my death I would have to be drunk to laugh like that....lol...that was good

Superior is a point of view.

I agree with you completely on Yoda but I also strongly believe that Sidious was faking it with Mace to draw in Anakin. Look in the Mace is the hardest Jedi thread if you want the reasons.... myself and Mephistodesigns said pretty much my belief very clearly and well.

I really looked for Sidious toying with Mace....any sign of it before Anakins arrival.....didnt see it.....am I missing something?...i didnt go to the bathroom during that fight.....mace plainly whooped him.....the novel (Stover)gave Sidious more credit than Lucas did...but even the novel didnt show that sidious was toying...just made you wonder....movie clarified things as far as Im concerned

actually I was looking for someone who had something to say about the novel... what did it say Sidious was thinking

Is it illegal to give a portion of a novel to someone?...I bought the audio novel but i really dont want Lucas imprisoning me for sharing SW stuff when i have been a loyal paying fan since conception of SW....I would send it to you that portion but damn just get it from someone who doesnt fear being a prison biotch....I dont remember exact thoughts.....but it does make things a bit more curious....movie makes it look str8 forward that Sidious was pwned.......but novel leaves open for discussion.....to busy thread searching to go thru and find that spot right now...if you cant find it soon pm me and Ill look later...hopefully I cant get in trouble for sharing my thought s on the book...thought crime....7-10 years...LOL

nah I'm not looking for someone to give me quotes, though that'd be cool. I'm just curious as to the general idea you get from it is all.

Originally posted by Darth Plagueis
You know I sort of agree, but the bottom line is that in the film, Sids defeated both of them. Period.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
Sidious did not beat Yoda or Mace Windu. If you watched the film Sidious tried to run from Yoda and Yoda stopped him. Sidious is a pussy ... In and out, a pussy !

Seriously Sidious was pwned till Annie showed....even novel didnt say anything direct that Sidious knew Annie would show up to save day...he was just pwned...though it gave sidious more force power credit made it seem like force lightning almost overcame Maces saber....uh oh Im goin to prison now!...lol...talked to much im sharin...agghhh run...no really Lucas isnt that bad.....he doesnt like our system either....why u think he compares our past and current national leaders with Sidious....,he knows ...he cuts a little slack offtopic

On top of ALL of this, let's not forget how EASILY a dying, already only half as powerful Anakin kills Palpatine in ROTJ. If Sidious was so powerful, he should have had absolutely no problem dispactching Vader when he tried that.

This gets a little contrived but basically, Luke, who's really not that strong in ROTJ, defeats Vader, and Vader defeats Palpatine. Could Mace or Yoda take Luke? I don't think I need to tell you the answer to that....

Originally posted by SithKiller
Seriously Sidious was pwned till Annie showed....even novel didnt say anything direct that Sidious knew Annie would show up to save day...he was just pwned...though it gave sidious more force power credit made it seem like force lightning almost overcame Maces saber....uh oh Im goin to prison now!...lol...talked to much im sharin...agghhh run...no really Lucas isnt that bad.....he doesnt like our system either....why u think he compares our past and current national leaders with Sidious....,he knows ...he cuts a little slack offtopic

for the last time Lucas wrote this stuff in 1997!

Of course Sidious would have to survive ... It is a trilogy and all .. Wouldnt be much of one if one of the movies wasnt congrent(not spelled correctly) with the other parts. So with that in mind, Sidious surviving Mace and Yoda isnt the question ... The question is who is superior. If we are talking about the force then I would say Yoda is largly superior to Sidious. As far as lightsabre combat, Mace and Yoda are very superior to Sidious.

Please everyone cast a vote!...I really dont care if you agree with me or not...just vote! like 200 views and just a few votes....VOTE!w00t

Disappointed KMC this thread shows up inaccurate times of posts etc..when not registered...????wtf...tried googling and viewing as guest....Ush Lance wus up? Kick it in to gear!...lol....nite all ...you registered folk

Mace beat him by himself. Yoda fought him to a draw, but then quit. Palpy doesnt seem that powerful

I fought these two guys. I didn't represent real well, but sort of held my own. When the fight was over, one guy was dead or ran away, the other was living in a frikkin swamp. Me? EMPEROR OF THE ENTIRE DAMN GALAXY. You decide who won.

I still stick by my assessment that Palp faked losing the fight with Mace. Ian acted it too over the top. It was pretty obvious to me.

I think that Yoda and Palp are close in power, but that Palp still trumps. If Yoda was stronger than him, why not kill him and save the galaxy?

Before i Saw the movie i read the script and it made it sound like sidous owned mace or was holding back but after seeing it i know different.
Mace windu clearly beat sidous He didnt plan on having a Jedi master stand over him with a light saber defenseless. His greatest power is his ability to manipulate ppl he didnt plan to loose to mace but when anaki ncame in he played anakin in order to get him to save his cowardly ass. In the same way he didnt plan on Padme to escape Naboo in Ep1 but used her to become chancelor.
Man I was expecting sidous to be this unstopable jed killing terror instead he gets kicked in th face and then starts crawling on the ground like the coward he is. He and yoda are alot alike in the sense that neither of them have that Raw physical power they use agility , and experiance to defeat thier enemys with thier strategy not raw power.

Originally posted by Lazerlike42
Given a person who would win 99 out of 100 fights with another, it would not be correct to say that that person is more powerful than the other simply because the one time they fought it happened to be that one time.

I'm not making a direct comparison, simply a conceptual illustration.

This is a very important point indeed. Sabre duels are like tennis matches- best man has a better chance, but not a certain win.

"I think that Yoda and Palp are close in power, but that Palp still trumps. If Yoda was stronger than him, why not kill him and save the galaxy?"

Try not to confuse force power and sheer duelling ability. Being powerful with the Force helps, but do you seriously think Maul was a better force user than Qui-Gon?

I think in this area, even though Mace is not quite the force user Yoda is, I think the film has clearly shown he was King Lightsabre.

Sure, why not? I don't know. I imagine they were close. Their duel lasted longer, though.

Heck no! Maul was a pure thug. All he could do was fight. Qui-Gon was a fully ranked, new-mystery-of-the-force discovering Jedi Master!

Not even close!

For that matter, Anakin isn't as powerful as Dooku yet, yet killed him.

Anakin has more pure power, and by using the dark side he did get to be stronger. The Dark Side gives you quicker access to all of your power.

No- Anakin has POTENTIAL. But he doesn't have the power yet- I don't see him doing half the force tricks Dooku was doing.

But what he is, is an exceptionally good swordsman. The two do not necessarily equate.

Likewise, Mace can outfight Sidious.

Sorry, but if your view depends on Maul being close in force power to Qui-Gon, I think it is lacking in rationality.

after watching the movie..i believe yoda and palpatine are too close to eachother to say who is the best, but mace is clearly the best duelist depicted in the movies.

Sidious was holding back with mace. He knew anakin was on his way.

And i guess we were watching a different movie, because i saw Yoda getting his arse handed to him.

I still believe that Palpatine was faking it when it comes to Mace, but I know that arguement isn't going anywhere.

As far as Yoda is concerend, I'll say it again.... at the very end of the duel he took Sidious' best and threw it back in his face. If it weren't for the kickback, he would have leaped on the ol' chap and impaled him.

Guess you weren't watching very closely then! Seemed clearly evens to me, their fight.

yoda had his extremely funny moment with the imperial guards ....that was a laugh

I refer only to the very end of it. Sort of in the same spirit as Superman who can struggle to stop an airplane from falling and almost crash into the ground, but once he's got it stopped, it's nothing for him to carry it around all day, just needs to get over the hump.

(of course in Superman's case I'm sure momentum and physics has something to do with it but the point stands lol)

yep..he did seem the have the edge in that scene...but i don't thin it's HIGHLY relevant...they are very close

I was actually replying to jack.

point is....Sidious won the battle.

I thought so I was originally quoting you but when I realized it may be a reply to the other one I droppd the quote but I thought it was worth saying anyways.

Originally posted by jackstain
point is....Sidious won the battle.

Yeah. hardly a no-contest no-hope victory though, was it? Looked like it could have gone either way to me.

Originally posted by jackstain
point is....Sidious won the battle.

He tried to run away at the beginning.... in my book he officially lost right there. Just because circumstances led him to follow through with the rest of the fight doesn't matter.

Think of it as a boxing match where no knockout takes place. The winner is decided by scoring.... Throughout the battle, the two are even (and I'm not even counting that Yoda totally smashed him at the very end), but Yoda gets some major points for not letting the guy leave and Sidious looses some major points for trying to run away.... what is he the Joker?

Think of it this way.



He won.

he's the biggest coward in the galaxy, and he didn't win. And even if he did win the battle, he lost the war in a total embarrasment of a debacle that will go down in galactic history as the biggest failure and most embarrassing defeat ever!

Oh, but Sidious won in ROTS!

You see, being a good Sith or Jedi is more than being good with lightsaber!

Did we see Yoda`s greatness in PT?!

wow.....lazerlike ur in denial....

yoda lost.

no matter how u look at it. he even says, and i quote, "failed, i have."

he admits defeat, now u shuld too.

Yes, ROTS is a great victory for the Sith!

Wrong.

That statement is referring to his failure in all the events leading up to this. It refers to his failure to see the straying of the Jedi that ultimately led to Palpatine's success and Anakin's fall. Yoda failed because he never saw coming everything he should have, and because he didn't do his part to keep the Jedi order on track with the ideals on which it was founded. He wasn't saying "I failed at this battle," he was saying "I failed in general."

As far as the battle is concerened, Yoda does not lose. He runs away to regroup. There's a huge difference. Many, many people have done this in fiction and in fact throughout history. Regrouping constitutes a strategy, not a defeat.

its ok, we know ur in denial.


he lost, just accept it. lol.

last time I checked your side only had 40% of the vote!

really, cuz last time i checked(which was me watching the actually footage on ROTS) yoda loses.

well you can hardly say I am lost when the majority of people disagree with you

I have watched the fight scenes 5 times to anylyse what happned & what i said ealier seems true if u pay attention. GL throw soo many details into the movie he doest put details in thier just for the hell of it. The duel between Yoda & Sidous is nothing more than a draw. Sidous did not defeat Yoda in the sense that he was standing over him confidently as if Yoda was whooped. Sidous fired lighting directly at Yoda Saber thinking that w/o a saber he would be defensless against his lightning only to find out Yodas knowladge of the force was evenly matched to his own and he could defend just fine with his bare hands. Watch the movie again and look at Sidous expression as Yoda reflects the power back at him he is tooken by suprise. Yoda fell down only from the force of reflecting the lightning.And when he hits the ground his saber is in the fore ground looking burnt.That is a detail put there for a reason.He had no light saber to continue battling with. Watch the film more and u will pick up these little details.

he failed to finish of the Palpy, the match ended with Yda force lightning the shit out of Palpy, only diffrence was Palpy had something to hang onto Yoda didnt. Yoda understood that clonetroppers was on the way and he couldnt beat them all so his best chance was to flee

yoda and palpy are equal I think therefore palpy must have facked being beaten by Mace since its always been my understanding that yoda was the greatest jedi at that time.

There is no doubt that Palpetine is the strongest. The Dark side is truly more powerful!

accordin to me there is no contest Yoda and mace are clearly more powerful so where the sortin out required palp loses simple as tht

Both of Yoda and Mace are more powerful...

Mace would have finished him off if it wasn't for Anakin coming in, there is nothing to show he wasn't dead serious in that fight and that he wanted to win. He begged for his life, he used every trick he had and in the end that was Mace his failure. Sidious may have given the final touch but a child could have done that. A simple force push would have been enough to finish off a weak and surprised Mace.

Yoda owned Sidious too, he just lost his lightsaber. Its kinda hard to fight a Sith Lord in a match of force only, Yoda realised then that he could not win, his lightsaber was gone... Destroyed ruined, he had to run knowing full well that more people would come soon and he would not be able to kill all of them without a lightsaber.

Sidious won neither of them because of his skill he won one because of Anakin and another one because Yoda's destroyed lightsaber. Would they have fought in a different area, would Anakin not have been there then Sidious would have gotten owned by the Jedi Masters twice.

He may have won, but he couldn't match either of them. Sidious is far weaker then everybody seems to think

Originally posted by Fishy
Both of Yoda and Mace are more powerful...

Mace would have finished him off if it wasn't for Anakin coming in, there is nothing to show he wasn't dead serious in that fight and that he wanted to win. He begged for his life, he used every trick he had and in the end that was Mace his failure. Sidious may have given the final touch but a child could have done that. A simple force push would have been enough to finish off a weak and surprised Mace.

Yoda owned Sidious too, he just lost his lightsaber. Its kinda hard to fight a Sith Lord in a match of force only, Yoda realised then that he could not win, his lightsaber was gone... Destroyed ruined, he had to run knowing full well that more people would come soon and he would not be able to kill all of them without a lightsaber.

Sidious won neither of them because of his skill he won one because of Anakin and another one because Yoda's destroyed lightsaber. Would they have fought in a different area, would Anakin not have been there then Sidious would have gotten owned by the Jedi Masters twice.

He may have won, but he couldn't match either of them. Sidious is far weaker then everybody seems to think
my point there is no match between Yoda and mace vs sidius Yoda would hav won no matter wat and mace would hav killed him if anakin din't get involved and cut off his arm

Originally posted by snehin
my point there is no match between Yoda and mace vs sidius Yoda would hav won no matter wat and mace would hav killed him if anakin din't get involved and cut off his arm

?

exactly so Yoda and mace wins easy

So you agreed with me? Okay...

okay

Still kinda close on the votes....but Yoda and mace still in the lead woohoo!!!!

I think Mace lost to Sidious however Yoda didn't lose to Sidious. Sidious tried to run away at the beginning and Sidious had to call his clones to search for Yoda he was to scared to search himself. As far as the fight goes it was a draw. But Yoda took Sidious's best and shoved it in his face if the fight had been able to resume I'm not so sure Sidious would have won.

The important concept you all have to realize was that Mace struggled to repel Palpatine's force lightning. If you are arguing that Sidious wasn't actually faking becoming "disfigured" as he was supposedly weakened, then you have missed probably the key aspect about the film's plot.

Sidious was faking it, Mace was not. Meaning, whether he lost the fight on the lightsaber end or not (I considered that an even match), Sidious could have laid on the force lightning untill the cows came home. Mace would have given in eventually. Anakin to the rescue or not.

How could you consider the lightsaber battle even? Mace disarmed him...lol.....

I don't agree with the poll because Mace and Yoda should be separate. I think Yoda was superior but Mace was not.

Sidious had a damn hard time keeping on, he got his face fried and he was losing control. He cowered for his life even before Anakin came in and Mace was ready to kill him. Sidious had no real way of knowing that Anakin would betray Mace. He couldn't really know for sure, why take the risk? Sidious wasn't faking it, he lost.

Sidious lost on purpose against Mace, to stimulate and make Anakin's turn to the dark side moment final.
As for Yoda, he is a little stronger than the green little friend.

Where do you get that from? Where did you ever see Sidious having an advantage over Mace? Even before Anakin walked into the room?

what Fishy said

I think Sidious let himself be scarred on purpose. He seriously could have unloaded the lightning on Mace a lot stronger much sooner had he wanted to. Has anyone here even seen the old trilogy. Palpatine was always having visions of the future about what the jedi were going to do.

"He will come to you and you must bring him before me!" - ROTJ

He knew Anakin was coming and YES, he was OVERCONFIDENT. It was his weakness.

And I believe Yoda and Sidious were basically equal. Yoda just had made a few blunders. Had they fought on Yoda's terms in a different location, at a different time, things might have gone completely different. The same can be said for the Obi-Wan vs Anakin fight. And really, these fights were all pretty evenly matched. There were other fights that were no contest at all. Poor librarian.

Visions or well educated guesses? And even if he had visions they weren't enough to make him know what would exactly take place. Maybe he knew Mace and the Jedi would come, but did he realise that Mace would beat him? Did he see that? He sure as hell didn't foresee that Vader would pick him up and throw him away.

Agree with Dark Yoda I do!

I dont think Sidious wanted to Get the Lighting into his Face, Mace clearly Won the fight

Originally posted by DenKi
I dont think Sidious wanted to Get the Lighting into his Face, Mace clearly Won the fight

I do... because it made him look more evil (always desirable in a Sith Lord), it made him more angry and that much more powerful (in theory) and it gave him a good excuse to use when addressing the senate about how the Jedi attacked him. He was now deformed. It also aided Anakin in turning towards the darkside... seeing him deformed and twisted made him feel sorry for Palpy.

Originally posted by DarkYoda
I do... because it made him look more evil (always desirable in a Sith Lord), it made him more angry and that much more powerful (in theory) and it gave him a good excuse to use when addressing the senate about how the Jedi attacked him. He was now deformed. It also aided Anakin in turning towards the darkside... seeing him deformed and twisted made him feel sorry for Palpy.

Anakin didn't feel sorry for Palp, he wanted him arrested he just needed him alive so that he could save his girl, that was his only real goal.. He didn't care about anything else.

And the attack on him? Yeah okay it may have been a nice extra line but hardly necessary.

NO WAY GUYS!!!
the movie showed clearly mace was dominant over palps, hands down end of contest. he got pinned down by Mace after getting his skinny butt kicked down and after his desperation move of force lightning mace delivered back into his face. Palps was losing long before anikin came into the room. Thats why i am of the mind Mace must be so uber in combat. Looked how much butt he kciked on the sith lord himself!! He got killed because of a cheap shot by a third party, nothing more.

Actually i thought Yoda vs Sids looked pretty even to me. I think maybe Yoda had just a smidgen of an edge over palps but that was it. I think yoda would have won if he could have kept up his stamina longer

He would have one if his lightsaber wouldn't have been destroyed, which is the best thing I have seen Sids do, although he was probably just lucky... still that mean the end of Yoda his fight and caused Yoda to run.. No use in fighting if you don't have a weapon to fight with.

Sidious tried to run away from Yoda and he was scared of Yoda. He didn't want to face him...

You know, if you look earlier in this thread and in the Mace is the hardest thread you'll see that I strongly argued that Sidious faked it with Mace, but I am really beginning to see it the other way. If I can be turned, it must be the truth!

this is exactly right, leaving aside the mace/ palps argument for now if yoda was truly stronger then why would he go into exile? why not go and kill sidious...???? think about that, even with vader there. just bring obi with u, if obi defeated vader pre-suit. he prolly would beat him post-suit. and if yoda was truly stronger then sidious then both him and obi could have just gone back together and killed both of them. the OT requires that the 2 reaming jedi could not defeat the sith. thats the point.

as for the mace thing, how can u really think that palps lost...did u see the way he was acting?

i mean common, it was so over the top it was funny, people in the theater were laughing cause they knew exactly what palps was doing...hes a sneaky scheming guy, and hes good at it...this was a perfect example of it.

i still maintain that paps would have won, i mean he could have just force thrown windu away for a sec and then lighting him to death, not even mace can hold it off for that long...

i seriously doubt that palpatine would have just given up as he did if anakin hadn't shown up.

Originally posted by DarkYoda
I think Sidious let himself be scarred on purpose. He seriously could have unloaded the lightning on Mace a lot stronger much sooner had he wanted to. Has anyone here even seen the old trilogy. Palpatine was always having visions of the future about what the jedi were going to do.

"He will come to you and you must bring him before me!" - ROTJ

He knew Anakin was coming and YES, he was OVERCONFIDENT. It was his weakness.

And I believe Yoda and Sidious were basically equal. Yoda just had made a few blunders. Had they fought on Yoda's terms in a different location, at a different time, things might have gone completely different. The same can be said for the Obi-Wan vs Anakin fight. And really, these fights were all pretty evenly matched. There were other fights that were no contest at all. Poor librarian.

In ROTJ Palpatine's ability to forsee was questionable at BEST. He was completely mistaken "about a great many things" lol. My favorite is:

Vader: My son is here
Sidious: No he's not
Vader: Yes he is
Sidious: Oh yes yes yeah um I forsaw that

If Palpatine was able to defeat Yoda, he certainly would have been able to defeat Vader when he picks him up instead of cackling like a fool while he gets thrown down the reactor shaft.

Moreso, after that initial battle it's no longer a matter of Yoda and Obi-wan simply walking in and handing it to Palpatine. Yoda caught him at an oppurtune time, at the very beginning of the empire before things have really gotten started, when all he had in defense was two guards. After that point, the emperor was surrounded at all times by a good chunk of the fleet and more stormtroopers than you can shake a stick at. Yoda's great, but even he can't singlehandedly overthrow the entire Imperial navy to get to Palpatine.

So palps was faking his loss before Anakin could see it? He was faking it for what reason then?

And with Yoda, Yoda left because he lost his lightsaber. In the OT you don't see him wielding a lightsaber either, why not? Probably because he lost it and didn't make a new one... Which probably isn't all that easy to do without places to do it. Now i'm sure Yoda could do it, but he could possibly have to face army's, how do you do that without a lightsaber? Answer: You don't.

He matches Sidious even then, but he knows damn well that it can't be long before troopers come along, its going to be hard to deflect blaster fire without a lightsaber and then at the same time fight Sidious? Yoda isn't stupid.

Sidious was outmatched by both of them though.

And how do you explain Palps running away before he even faces Yoda, he wanted to get the hell out of there. Wanted to run, he was afraid and for a good reason. If he could not beat Mace who was second to Yoda then he sure as hell could not beat Yoda.

Now by your logic if he was so much more powerful then Mace that he could actually afford faking a loss like that then why the hell did he run from Yoda? If he was able to defeat Mace in a split second as soon as it was necessary to do so he had no reason to run, because he would have been incredible.

Palp changed his appearance on his own. He made it seem as if the "Jedi" disfigured his face, when that was indeed his true form. That was he excuse for evenone to believe that the Jedi were trying to overthrow eveything.

Palpy knew that Anakin was going to come and that would be the deciding fate of Mace. Mace was struggling just to hold the lightning with the saber. Plus Sids wasnt even unleashing full power against Mace. "Im sooo weak" That was Sids playing possum. So weak? But as soon as Mace got thrown out of the window, Sids got up with no problems. Palpy knew exactly what was gonig to happen. He even knew that Anakin was having dreams about Padme dying.

The fight with Yoda on the other hand, was clearly a draw. Best fight of the movie imo.

Then why the hell did he immediately run from Yoda, if he had no trouble at all with number two, why would he run from number 1? Yes he's going to be more powerful but come on there are limits, you beat the one without trying and you are scared of the other?

If it was his original form why did it seem to decay? And since when can he actually cloud the way his face looks? Also why look ugly after that. And yes he stands up after that, but remember Anakin in AOTC. He stands up a few seconds after he gets his lightning in his ass too, not even to mention that he does like kinda weak when he gets up.

And still doesn't explain why he was faking it before Anakin came in... Why lose before that?

I believe, it was his true form, also believe he was playing with Mace, like he has been with all the Jedi for, how many years? His greatest ability was to trick and manipulate just about everyone. And yoda, evens, I demand a re-match.
Anyone remember the code Sidios gave to the Clone Trooper, to attack the Jedi?

I never said he had no trouble with Mace. I believe he was trying to kill Mace at first. When Palpy was on the floor trowing the lightning, he wasnt giving it his all. It was more so in defence of being killed to show Anakin that the Jedi were wrong to try to kill him and that gave Ani the chance to think about what Palpy said about saving Padme. If Sids wanted to overwhelm Mace with the lightning at the time, he could have. The reason he didnt was because he knew that Skywalker had conflict in him, thus giving him more time to think about saving his wife.

Palpy made it look as if he was decaying. He wanted Anakin to think "Look at what Mace is doing to me!" "Im old and weak." And in AOTC, Ani didnt get up right after his ass got filled with lightning. He was on the floor knocked out, with Obi fought Dooku. That was a good 3 min. He came to when Dooku was about to kill Obi. Thats when Ani got up my friend.

I dont think Sids was scared of Yoda. I just think he wanted to avoid the fight. In the saber battle sids was doing very well against Yoda. Yoda was clearly on the attack side, and Sids was blocking everything Yoda was giving him. Force wise, they were even.

I think sids also didn't want to risk losing to Yoda anymore than Yoda wanted to lose to sids. Palpatine was probably going to get some backup or wait until he had his apprentice at his side. Remember that fear is a big part of the darkside. Palpatine was not brave or courageous - a jedi trait. On the contrary, he was a coward.

I thought mace's speciality was with his light saber. I thought mace was supposed to be the master of light saber skills. Eigther way, it appears that Palpitine was to much for yoda to handle, Yoda got educated in the dark side.

Originally posted by DarkYoda
I think sids also didn't want to risk losing to Yoda anymore than Yoda wanted to lose to sids. Palpatine was probably going to get some backup or wait until he had his apprentice at his side. Remember that fear is a big part of the darkside. Palpatine was not brave or courageous - a jedi trait. On the contrary, he was a coward.

He diddnt look to cowardly while he was spanking yoda.

Did you see the movie? If Yoda didn't lose his balance Sidious was toast

Indeed. Palpy in NO WAY spanked Yoda.

Mace is second only to Yoda in lightsaber skills.

Dark Yoda, youre absolutely right. Excellent explination.

As final thought, Mace is not more powerful than Sidious. What would have happened if Sidious would have fought like when he did with Yoda? Mace would be on the floor. I still think Sidious let Mace win over him. That's why he never stopped shouting HELP, HELP, ANAKIN HE'S GOING TO KILL ME. He probably forsaw Anakin's arrival and Anakin cutting Mace's hand off, for as soon as he did, Sidious revealed his true self.

Originally posted by Mandos
As final thought, Mace is not more powerful than Sidious. What would have happened if Sidious would have fought like when he did with Yoda? Mace would be on the floor. I still think Sidious let Mace win over him. That's why he never stopped shouting HELP, HELP, ANAKIN HE'S GOING TO KILL ME. He probably forsaw Anakin's arrival and Anakin cutting Mace's hand off, for as soon as he did, Sidious revealed his true self.

Agreed 100%

Yoda and Sidious is equal. Mace is not equal with neither. Its that simple.

Originally posted by Mandos
As final thought, Mace is not more powerful than Sidious. What would have happened if Sidious would have fought like when he did with Yoda? Mace would be on the floor. I still think Sidious let Mace win over him. That's why he never stopped shouting HELP, HELP, ANAKIN HE'S GOING TO KILL ME. He probably forsaw Anakin's arrival and Anakin cutting Mace's hand off, for as soon as he did, Sidious revealed his true self.

Yeah... Palpatine got up way too fast afterward. And considering how easily he picked Windu up and threw him out the window ought to say something about his power. They even played the evil sith music afterward that hinted at the fact that it was Palpatine manipulating the whole thing.

And to further explain myself regarding Palpatine as a coward... after he was stopped by Yoda he became angry and out of hatred decided he would go ahead and fight Yoda. Fear>Anger>Hate>Suffering

I think the poll needs to be changed.

Sidious has the highest percentage of midi-chlorian in him, right after Anakin (who still has more than 2 times Sidious's percentage).

Originally posted by Mandos
Sidious has the highest percentage of midi-chlorian in him, right after Anakin (who still has more than 2 times Sidious's percentage).

Sounds like Supershadow to me!

Yoda>Sidious imo

Sid fights dirty and Yoda got unlucky, he got a flat slippery thing to hold onto, and sidious got a bar to grasp onto.

In the book sidious wiped Yoda because Yoda wasnt enough, he pretended to be out during the windu fight to make mace kill him something anikan didnt want him to do it was all part off sidioues plan to gain Ani's trust

The book which is fan written?

Im glad the movie didnt show that. Which would have been a total piece of crap.

I believe the movie showed how it should be. Power wise between Yoda, Sids and Mace. No complaints here.

Sids would still win

In that case, im glad he didnt. Yoda is still the man.

i like yoda

Originally posted by Mandos
As final thought, Mace is not more powerful than Sidious. What would have happened if Sidious would have fought like when he did with Yoda? Mace would be on the floor. I still think Sidious let Mace win over him. That's why he never stopped shouting HELP, HELP, ANAKIN HE'S GOING TO KILL ME. He probably forsaw Anakin's arrival and Anakin cutting Mace's hand off, for as soon as he did, Sidious revealed his true self.

If he could see all that, why couldnt he see where luke and leia were. I mean luke wasnt exactly hidden in the most unthinkable places, it was his family family for christ sake? I mean shit...a new york detective could have found luke and leia.

Im sure by now everyone knows he's my favorite.

hail yoda

(though all this has already been said Ill say it again) Yoda showed simply Sidious did not have power over the force enough to overcome him with Force power.....Yoda showed he could take all he had and Easily throw it right back at him...Mace showed Sidious could not beat his Saber skills.....any other guessing of "I think he was toying with him to trick Anakin" is just plain imagination and guessing as far as Im concerned...The movie showed nothing of Sids even anywhere near hinting that he was playing with either Mace or Yoda when fighting...though he did kick everyone elses azz....hes bad mofo no doubt ...what he wasted 3 jedi in like 10 seconds....but he could not do that to Mace or Yoda....you sith lovers make me wanna drink...lol

Originally posted by SithKiller
Palpetine was pwned by Mace in Episode III in Saber Skills.... The novel kinda made it seem like he possibly might have been toying with mace?....Not so!... The movie clearly shows that Mace and Vapaad were superior....if anything Mace held back a bit...Yoda proved that his power in the last scene of their fight was superior to Palps ...although his light little green butt was knocked for a loop...he did absorb all Palps power and appeared to EASILY reverse it....Yes different surroundings he would have defeated palps no prob...ill leave it for discussion and debate from Sith lovers from here...lol....

I agree. After reading the various boards I got the feeling Palpy was going to be invincible. After seeing him in action I was less than convinced. The Sith lovers among us, the 'various truths they cling to', well Yoda and Palps looked like they duked out a stalemate to me. I got a feeling Yoda retreated because he felt destiny was against him rather than anything 'hard as nails' Sids had to offer. More plausable however was Palps faking defeat to Mace. I say 'plausable' as opposed to undeniable. I still don't know for sure. I think this thing can only be cleared up by a pronouncement from the Bearded One.

And the Jedi take a stronger lead now!...(every time I say that we get sith voters...lol...hehehe)

why kill sith do you?

Its just a job ...lol starwars

i understand but im bound to the sith if you feed me!?

Sidious is far superior. The jedi suck.

Didnt Sidious try and run first?

Originally posted by jackstain
wow.....lazerlike ur in denial....

yoda lost.

no matter how u look at it. he even says, and i quote, "failed, i have."

he admits defeat, now u shuld too.

So Sidious didnt try and run away uh? Oh wait ... He did ... Yoda stopped Sidious from running away like a little pussy Sidious is. Almost everyone here thinks Sidious is some God because he got control of the Republic and turned in into the Empire. I will give the man props for manipulating the Jedi, Senate, and almost everyone else in Starwars but just because he did manipulating everyone doesnt mean he is a better swordsman or that he is better with the force then Yoda.

The bottom line goes like this.

Sidious tried to run like a sally.

Yoda took his very best and gave it right back to him. Sidious was lucky that Yoda fell to the bottom.

I think Yoda hightailed it out of there cause the clonetroopers were going to intervene anyways.

Well dont worry bout it Grand Moff the circle is now complete sith killin days are over its just me and the chosen drink....drunk...soon time to change my sig.....dont know if I can change my name or not Lance did but hes a Mod????????

In all the posts here, as well as in similar threads, ALL of you seem to have forgotten that Sids fought BOTH Mace and Yoda in a relatively short amount of time!!!!! Talk about frikkin' endurance!!!!!!! AND ends up triumphant!!

but someone else with the point of view Sidious was not faking it had to say that the force let him recover very easily... I forget why but I think if he/she didn't say the force helped him recover the point fell apart

Originally posted by Darth Plagueis
Ani cut his hand off, after which Mace was still alive. Sids blasted his ass with major megawattage, after which he was toast. Darth Sisious killed Mace Windu.

Then yes. Sidious killed a one-armed, saberless Mace. Way to validate the "Greatest Force User EV4R!!" claims.

lol

"In all the posts here, as well as in similar threads, ALL of you seem to have forgotten that Sids fought BOTH Mace and Yoda in a relatively short amount of time!!!!! Talk about frikkin' endurance!!!!!!! AND ends up triumphant!!"

And in that same time period, Anakin took out mace's arm, massacred the Jedi temple, trekked to mustafar, killed off the heads of the separatist movement, choked his wife, got the crap beat out of him by obi-wan, and burned into oblivion. *That* is endurance.

Mace is inferior to both Sidious and Yoda both, mace fan boys sorry he isn't the best anything. He's the most arrogant and blind of all the jedi council.

without a doubt he is those two things, though I would agree that he is quite strong insofar as combat and possibly the ability to control the force is concerend

Originally posted by mtryder
Then yes. Sidious killed a one-armed, saberless Mace. Way to validate the "Greatest Force User EV4R!!" claims. Well, I didn't claim that, but if an arm and a saber were the total of Mace, who by your logic was pwned without them....so be it.

Mace is second only to Yoda for a reason. Hes below Sids and Yoda, highly in my eyes. He had to block force lightning with his saber. And STRUGGLED at that. Yoda takes it and deflects it back on 2 different occasions(Dooku and Sidious).

Mace is Super Syajin lvl 1, While Yoda and Sids are both lvl 2.

As far as sheer Force power goes, Mace isn't as strong as Sidious. However, his skill with a lightsaber is obviously higher. Mace won their duel without any faking on Palpy's part. So what if he struggled against it with his saber? He still deflected it, back onto Palpy's own body I might add, causing him to be injured for at least a short amount of time. Had Anakin not stepped in, Mace would have sent Palpy back into the wholeness of the Force.

You honestly think the lightning injured Sidious? You cant be serious.

Im not saying that Sids was toying with Mace the whole fight. But he didnt have the same killer instinct that he did with Yoda. Why? Because Mace isnt as much of a threat as Yoda. Sids could have easily beat Mace with Force(lightning) attacks.

Nobody will die for a lie, and nobody will let their face get all messed up for a trick

Tell me, then, why his face suddenly becomes deformed. It can't be because he's using the Dark Side of the Force, because no one else has that happen to them. Nor does it happen to Sidious any other time during the fight.



That's complete conjecture based on nothing. What makes you think Sidious didn't have "the same killer instinct"? Let's not forget Sidious' lightning was both overcome and reflected by Mace's lightsaber. I don't think Mace would be incapable of doing it again.

Of course Sidious and Yoda have far greater force power than Mace. However, Mace was good enough with his saber that he was able to defend against Sidious' force power, thus turning the battle into a saber duel, which Sidious lost. Yes, his power was mainly derived from his saber. Even so, however, *anyone* is going to be vulnerable in the moments directly following the loss of a major limb. The snide "that must have been the sum of his power, so be it" remark, then, is obviously out of place, and a twisting of words that has no real bearing on what actually happened.

I've said it many times, and I'll repeat it again. Talking about "force users" and "duelists" are very, very different things. As far as duelists go, Mace was the best. He was proficient enough in the force to neutralize the skills of those more able than himself, and strong enough with the saber to be unstoppable in straight-up fighting. Does that make him the best force user? Of course not. Yoda and Palpatine were definitely superior in that respect, as was Dooku probably. Mace, however, did one thing in particular, and he was the best at it.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
Tell me, then, why his face suddenly becomes deformed. It can't be because he's using the Dark Side of the Force, because no one else has that happen to them. Nor does it happen to Sidious any other time during the fight.

Sidious knew that that was a perfect chance to "prove to Anakin that the Jedi were trying to take over. That was the "proof" that the Jedi were the ones who were corrupt. When in acuality, He was only revealing his true form. "So weak, I'm so weak!" Was all a hoax. Just like how Sidious changed the tone in his voice. His tone and appearance as Sidious is his true self and form.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
That's complete conjecture based on nothing. What makes you think Sidious didn't have "the same killer instinct"? Let's not forget Sidious' lightning was both overcome and reflected by Mace's lightsaber. I don't think Mace would be incapable of doing it again.

Its shown through both battles. When Sids was fighting Yoda, he was doing every trick in the book. He knew that Yoda was superior to Mace in every way. Thus meaning that he had to up his lightsaber and force display in battle.

Sidious' true form was that which we saw in TPM and AOTC, and the first half of ROTS. His skin was deformed by the lightning. Of course he changed his voice. I can change my voice when I want to sound evil lol.... of course his evil voice is his normal voice, the pleasent one is fake in his case.

here's something from another thread, I think it's very well said:

Originally posted by mtryder
Agreed. There are two truly pivotal moments over the course of the six movies: Anakin's turning on the Jedi to save Sidious, and Vader's turning on Sidious to save Luke. This is a blatant, obvious parallel on far, far too many levels to be a coincidence. In order for this to be true, however, Palpatine must have needed Anakin in order to survive. Anything less throws the entire theme of the six movies out of whack. Anakin's actions were what directly allowed for both the beginning and the end of the Empire. Without the former, the latter loses all significance, and the theme of redemption is partially ruined.