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Who do you think will win in this fight?

ok, i'd say superman...

but i think theres already a thread about this in the versus section...

*couging* Manhunter.

Manhunter.

Would be close but id say manhunter.

Manhunter beat the hell out of Ultraman...... could go the same way here

Originally posted by Scoobless
Manhunter beat the hell out of Ultraman...... could go the same way here

I could have sworn that Ultraman was a nothc below Superman in all abilities. They arent exactly equal(Superman and Ultraman)

With that said I think MM still has a chance to do it nonetheless. Superman just wins more times out of ten, imo.

MM can adjust his physical attributes by changing his molecular structure.

He can do this to put any one of his abilities on par with Supes, but not for very long. Less than a minute.

MM is an awesome telepath as well as an amazing physical combatant.

But he doesn't have the ability to put Supes down physically and I don't think Supes would let the battle last long enough for MM to drop him telepathically either....

Come on guys. Is that all you think about this fight? I know you guys have opinions about this so why not share them?

Superman would take out Martian Manhunter in a long fought out battle..

Yeah, MM is a great telepath and has other various abilities to make this a great match, but as far as offensive attacks are concerned MM doesn't measure up to the likes of Kal-EL.

Kal-EL also dwarfs MM as far as durability is concerned and while Supes could take an onslaught of MM's attacks the same cannot be said for vice versa..

All supes really needs is one good, timed blow and the fight is over, said and done...

Originally posted by jrodslam
I could have sworn that Ultraman was a nothc below Superman in all abilities. They arent exactly equal(Superman and Ultraman)

With that said I think MM still has a chance to do it nonetheless. Superman just wins more times out of ten, imo.

I thought so too.

Originally posted by SarKastic_OJ
Superman would take out Martian Manhunter in a long fought out battle..

Yeah, MM is a great telepath and has other various abilities to make this a great match, but as far as offensive attacks are concerned MM doesn't measure up to the likes of Kal-EL.

Kal-EL also dwarfs MM as far as durability is concerned and while Supes could take an onslaught of MM's attacks the same cannot be said for vice versa..

All supes really needs is one good, timed blow and the fight is over, said and done...

Martian Manhunter has a lot more at his disposal than Superman does.

Telepathy would be a deciding factor in this one. White Martians used it against Superman to great effect. Green Martians > White Martians.

Super Strength - Jonn's got it.

Flight - J'onn's got it.

Super Speed - J'onn's got it too.

Superbreath - It's cold as hell on Mars. J'onn won't be affected at all.

Heat Vision - The answer: Martian Vision

The Manhunter takes this.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Martian Manhunter has a lot more at his disposal than Superman does.

Telepathy would be a deciding factor in this one. White Martians used it against Superman to great effect. Green Martians > White Martians.

Super Strength - Jonn's got it.

Flight - J'onn's got it.

Super Speed - J'onn's got it too.

Superbreath - It's cold as hell on Mars. J'onn won't be affected at all.

Heat Vision - The answer: Martian Vision

The Manhunter takes this.

Youre 100% right about the telepathy part.

When you say "J'onn's got it", do you mean has the abilitty, or his is more powerful that Supes?

I think eventhough J'onn has all those abilities, his arent as powerful; as Superman's.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Youre 100% right about the telepathy part.

When you say "J'onn's got it", do you mean has the abilitty, or his is more powerful that Supes?

I think eventhough J'onn has all those abilities, his arent as powerful; as Superman's.

I mean, he has the abilty at a degree comparable to Superman.

Throw in shapeshifting, and you've got a butt-whooping on your hands.

Superman loses because it'd be a hate crime to beat up on a green man.

didn't superman admit that martian manhunter is one of
the few beings he'd be afraid to go against in open combat?

i coulda swore i read that somewhere......

as did I.

Yeah he said it, but I also can't remember the issue though. What he says might not mean a whole though...he's real humble after all.

In any case, telepathy. Say it with me. Tel-ep-a-thy. One routine mind-rape later, Manhunter wins.

-DM

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Yeah he said it, but I also can't remember the issue though. What he says might not mean a whole though...he's real humble after all.

In any case, telepathy. Say it with me. Tel-ep-a-thy. One routine mind-rape later, Manhunter wins.

-DM

Wait isn't MM's weakness fire?
Dudes heat vision and the game is over.
Why would Supes allow the fight to continue if he knows MM's weakness which he does.

Originally posted by whirlysplat


MM's stronger than White Martians telepathically. He's an awesomely-powered telepath. He'd shut Supes down if he really needed to. And at worst, he mess Supes up a ton, and finish him off some other way, since Supes would be too disoriented to fight.

-DM

Just a thought. MM has to concentrate by then supes has punched his face in

Originally posted by DigiMark007
MM's stronger than White Martians telepathically. He's an awesomely-powered telepath. He'd shut Supes down if he really needed to. And at worst, he mess Supes up a ton, and finish him off some other way, since Supes would be too disoriented to fight.

-DM

And if it got down and dirty 2 words Heat Vision

he isn't weak to fire anymore. unless supes got that red Kryptonite from Smallville (the tv show) and decided to burn an orphanage or a cross with akid on it down.

It still isn't his fave thing is it?Originally posted by Superherovandal
he isn't weak to fire anymore. unless supes got that red Kryptonite from Smallville (the tv show) and decided to burn an orphanage or a cross with akid on it down.

Yea, he can still be hurt by fire. But he can also go intagible... Can MM use his telepathy while intangible? If so, he's got this easy. Even if he can't I'd give it to him like 7/10. Jonn will never win in a comic, but still. That's just cuz it's Superman.

It was initially thought that Martians had a physiological vulnerability to fire. Now, after a desperate rewrite, it has become an implanted psychological vulnerability that was set up in order to keep them from enjoying their full potential as Burning Martians and being too powerful.

This makes Superman's heat vision much less of a factor.

So what does it come down to?

Common Traits:

Strength
Although Martian Manhunter can alter his strength to a degree, he would still only be within range of Superman's level, not equal to it. And he wouldn't be able to maintain such an adjustment indefinitely.
Superman would still have the advantage.

Speed
This is similar to the strength issue. Even augmented, Martian Manhunter only approaches Superman's level, but Superman is still superior.

Durability (physical)
Again, Superman comes out on top.

Flight
Speed may affect this, but as that's already been addressed, neither has a definitive edge here. Both are able to fly with excellent control.


Martian Manhunter's Additional Abilites:

Telepathy
This is probably the most significant factor in the fight against Superman, as it's the only area where he really has an advantage (and a huge one, at that).
Superman has the strongest will on the planet (JLA #52), but without any actual mental powers of his own, he'll eventually succumb to Martian Manhunter's assault.

Intangibility
I see this being put to better use defensively than offensively. If he is able to use this in conjunction with his telepathy, then it's pretty much over for Supes.


Superman's Additional Abilities:

Heat Vision
Although MM has overcome his psychological vulnerability to fire, that doesn't mean it won't hurt him. Superman's heat vision isn't a simple bonfire; as far as I'm aware, it's multiple times hotter than the surface of the sun, perhaps approaching, or even exceeding, the core.


What it comes down to is whether Martian Manhunter uses intangibility and telepathy together. If so, he wins after slowly crushing Superman's mind. If not, he loses after delivering some serious pain to the Man of Steel.

Come on guys. Anymore posts?

I think Superman would win. He has the main advantages and he's not really susceptible to having a psionic being try to incapacitate him with telekinesis. He usually fights through it and gives a pounding.

The shifting between super hard and opacity for Martian would make it difficult.. but Superman is faster both on land and air. Not to mention the heat rays (thats only if Martian is still afraid of fire)

MM strength is jack shit after a few minutes.
His durability is also jack after a few.
He's said himself, he can stay at superman's level for only a couple minutes, then his body breaks down.

If he can't take Superman down with his TK or Telepathy, he's as good as dead.

OH man!!!
Now MM has no weaknesses?
AM I the only one seeing how the comic book industry is screwing themselves up?
Practically everybody is getting godlike.
Who will be left to fight?

He still has his flame weakness, it never was physical.
His body would still react to the emotional responce of being set on fire, i.e break down.

His other weaknesses are low base strength(around 20 tons) which he can augment, but only extremely briefly.

He is still very very fast, and very smart....could go either way.

Superman wins 7/10. MM would win if he could get inside Superman's head--which might be a little tough when he's speed-blitzing him with his heat vision.

Like others have said, MM can augment his body to approach Superman's level of strength/speed/etc. but only for a while. Then he's screwed. Plus, Superman has beaten Martians before (JLA:New World Order) and the White Martians telepathy was only a notch or two under MMs.

MM could still win a couple of times if he was sneaky about it though.

Yeah. MM would have to become intangible PRETTY quickly to win this.

And you know we've lost touch with reality when people say 'low base strength of twenty tons' lol!

Nah, in DC 20 tons is like a teen superhero's strength level.

It's considered pretty weak. I still think it's sad that about 1/2 of the DCU earth heroes can approach/surpass Quicksilver's speed--and he's supposed to be the fastest guy on Marvel earth! (well, besides Sentry...).

DCU hero: Escape velocity? That aint ****
Quicksilver: o_O

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube


Martian Manhunter has a lot more at his disposal than Superman does.

Telepathy would be a deciding factor in this one. White Martians used it against Superman to great effect. Green Martians > White Martians.

Super Strength - Jonn's got it.

Flight - J'onn's got it.

Super Speed - J'onn's got it too.

Superbreath - It's cold as hell on Mars. J'onn won't be affected at all.

Heat Vision - The answer: Martian Vision

The Manhunter takes this.

i agree, MM takes it.
And by the way that crap about MM only being able of having that type of durability during one minute, i think its crap, does that appear in any comic?

what did appear in one comic was superman saying MM was the most powerful being living on earth.

It was in JLA#86 where supes said "I can count on one hand the number of beings in the known universe I would be afraid to face in open combat. Jonn J'onzz is at the top of that list. He is the most powerful being on the face of the earth."

Also, concerning martian manhunter's strength and other abilities, he's very near supes, while not being as powerful as supes in each one of his abilities. The martian manhunter's strength level is listed as incalculable on the official dc comics website. He has on one occasion help in moving the earth along with superman and wonderwoman. They didn't succeed overall in moving the earth the distance they wanted too, but the three of them did move it together before losing in and being assisted by Kyle and Manitou(If that's how its spelled). He's also taken down more than one white martian at a time physical during the JLA battles with the white martians. The martian manhunter's more of a scientist, psychologist or Philosopher, he likes or perfers to deal with challenges uses his mental powers, but has the physical attributes that rival that of earth's most powerful heroes. There are only a few on earth who equal him physically and maybe just a couple who exceed him.

Superman has incalculable strength(so high, can't accurately be measured) as well, but it a incalculable amount that is higher than J'onn's.

So the question is of course, can MM mind-rape Supes fast enough to take him out, or does Supes just lobotomize Jonn with heat vision?

Originally posted by Glimmerone
It was in JLA#86 where supes said "I can count on one hand the number of beings in the known universe I would be afraid to face in open combat. Jonn J'onzz is at the top of that list. He is the most powerful being on the face of the earth."


thanks

You could say it the other way around.

Supes has the will to last long enough against MM's mind attacks to crush him with his bare hands.

If Supes got his hands on Jonnz, he would crush him like a grape. He truly would.

Originally posted by ZephroCarnelian
You could say it the other way around.

Supes has the will to last long enough against MM's mind attacks to crush him with his bare hands.

If Supes got his hands on Jonnz, he would crush him like a grape. He truly would.

And Jon may not be scared of fire anymore but, Supes heat vision is something to behold!

Keep the faith

Keep it Whirly

Superman will freakin Kill Martian Manhunter because Superman is way stronger then Martian Manhunter.

Indeed.

MM can hold his strenght at nearly Superman level for not very long.

And I don't underestimate MM's telepathy - I respect him as the greatest telepath in comics.

But this is Superman.

He's not going down as easily as that, not to anyone, not anywhere.

Martian Manhunter can try frying his mind.

Superman will advance, slowly, surely, his mind burning with agonising mental fire... but he'd unstoppably march forwards until he has J'Onnz in his grasp and rip him clean in two.

Then he'd collapse and weep at the death of a dear friend and comrade.

Supes. Is. The. Man.

Keep posting guys.

Originally posted by ZephroCarnelian
Indeed.

MM can hold his strenght at nearly Superman level for not very long.

And I don't underestimate MM's telepathy - I respect him as the greatest telepath in comics.

But this is Superman.

He's not going down as easily as that, not to anyone, not anywhere.

Martian Manhunter can try frying his mind.

Superman will advance, slowly, surely, his mind burning with agonising mental fire... but he'd unstoppably march forwards until he has J'Onnz in his grasp and rip him clean in two.

Then he'd collapse and weep at the death of a dear friend and comrade.

Supes. Is. The. Man.

He is indeed

Ill drink to that.

Then Ill dance a jig

You can't beat a good ole bannana jig!!

What happend when Martian Manhunter became evil???????????????????????????????

it seems no one wants to answer

Superman will f--- Martian Manhunter up.

Guys. Maxwell Lord mindf***ked Superman. Guess what Martian Manhunter will do?

plsu MM has the ability to turn invisible, supes wouldnt be able to touch him, this one goes to MM

Originally posted by Draco69
Guys. Maxwell Lord mindf***ked Superman. Guess what Martian Manhunter will do?

Well the White Martians tried and failed Draco so..................I doubt it

mm wekness is fire , super man uses his speed then heatvision,

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/554/martianmanhunter2zw.th.jpg


whistling

sig says it all

I made this thread? Damn I don't even remember this.

Anyways, I think MM would have the advantage of winning because of his telepathy but Supes could also win if he gets a good shot at him with his heat vision. So I'm saying MM 6/10.

MM wins, as I recall Superman said in a comic that he couldnt beat Martian Manhunter if they fought

i feel it would be a great fight but manhunter's telepathy and intagabilty along with his comparable stats give him the win

Well going by comics, Superman wins. Everyone views him as champion. When it comes down to whats written down, MM looks better.

50%50%

MM is way underrated

In a properly written fight where J'onn actually used his powers intelligently, or in KMC match, Superman wouldn't win.

In comics, though, Superman has casually taken down the rest of the Justice League, even with the Manhunter there, to say he could win this fight.

looking at the stats you would think MM would win, unless he is still deathly vulnerable to fire. In which case laser vision would kill him.

Still I think Supes is acknowledge as the stronger one, cause if it was the other way around MM would be leading the JLA not supes.

But who knows Supes power has been fluctuating for years. He is challenged or gets owned by opponents he should destroy,, and than he rises to the occasion when really powerful opponents who could potentially kill, show up.

I would say Supes is generally stronger, and has suffered from occasional bad writers. But MM has been misrepresented in a few comics as well.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
50%50%

MM is way underrated MM is underrated, but Supes takes the majority here.

Originally posted by quanchi112
MM is underrated, but Supes takes the majority here.

for once we agree...

Originally posted by Raoul
for once we agree... I think I just changed my mind.

uhuh

I don't think J'onn has a viable method of attack without becoming tangible. I don't think mental attacks would work very well against Superman. So without those two options, the only other ability he has over Superman is shape-shifting. Not enough to take down someone who is stronger, faster, more durable and has heat vision when you have a weakness to fire.

Unless someone has a scan of maybe an evil or possessed J'onn who punks Superman with his telepathy, I think Superman handily wins this.

Superman 7/10.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Unless someone has a scan of maybe an evil or possessed J'onn who punks Superman with his telepathy, I think Superman handily wins this.


i see what you did there... awesome

Aha! Couldn't get one past you, Raoul!

...



...

No, seriously. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Aha! Couldn't get one past you, Raoul!

...



...

No, seriously. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about...

Trial By Fire?

Superman ftw.

Originally posted by Raoul
Trial By Fire? I don't really remember Trial By Fire too clearly. Is that when he turns into Fernus? Which in case, didn't he power up when he became Fernus? So any telepathy feats there wouldn't really apply to a non-Fernus current J'onn (before he kicked the bucket anyway), right? Or am I mixing up stories?

Originally posted by Raoul
ok, i'd say superman...

but i think theres already a thread about this in the versus section...

Raoul.
Being a moderator since may 2005.

Superman for the majority. Telepathy would be MM only real advantage and Supes has more feats showing resistance than not.

Supes would win, Martian is good, but he has no stats on Superman. Also heat vision kind of owns.

Originally posted by Raoul
no, you've got it. but look at your post before lol...



yeah, i'm a workaholic...

"work"

Can MM be burned when he is phased?

Originally posted by h1a8
Can MM be burned when he is phased? only surfer can be hit when phased according to the other threads.

SS can't do shit.

But MM fails so he will be burned.

Originally posted by Raoul
no, you've got it. but look at your post before lol...



yeah, i'm a workaholic... Yes, well. I meant an evil or possessed J'onn that was still substantially J'onn, just unhinged and not afraid to violate his friend's mind. Didn't really mean Fernus. But I see what you thought you saw I did there.

Just citing examples that I can remember, Supes and MM have fought at least four times in comic book history.

1- Pre-Crisis: Supes defeated MM to obtain a key that MM was protecting.

2- Post-Crisis: Supes killed MM during a fight that took place during the Armageddon 2001 storyline.

3- Post-Crisis: Spear of Destiny storyline. Supes falls under the influence of the Spear of Destiny and pretty much takes out all of Earth's heroes, including MM.

4- Post-Crisis: MM as Fernus incapacitates Supes and most of the JLA.

Unless I'm missing any other confrontations, Supes won three out of those four tussles. On top of that Supes has fought enemies that manhandled MM: Asmodel the Bull Host Angel (whom he defeated) and Despero (whom he fought evenly).

Also, if memory serves Supes said J'onn was "one of the most powerful beings on the face of the earth". Not the most powerful.

Simply put, I've never seen MM accomplish the kind of feats that Superman has: moving planets, moons, etc. Nor has he displayed Supes durability or heart in combat. So, I think Supes takes this, maybe not every single time but he'll win far more often than he looses.

Ostrander had Martian Manhunter take on the entire JLA, including Superman.

This was MM as he should've been written all along, morphing limbs out of nowhere and actually using his versatility, and he did quite well for himself.. But no major one vs one tussles or anything. Still, Ostranders run gave some solid arguments for why MM should really own Supes.

However, a white martian had Supes dead to rights by engulfing and smothering him, and HV doesn't create fire in and of itself so that wasn't saving him. In the end, it was the fire from Earths core that saved him, but MM is smart enough to avoid that...

There's also one issue where MM had Ultraman basically defeated and immobilized.. Wish I know the issue. Been looking for that one for awhile..

I think Morrison did it.

Originally posted by h1a8
Can MM be burned when he is phased?

Fire will knock him out of phase, but hv just passes through him. They're only hot beams, not actual fire.

"Ostrander had Martian Manhunter take on the entire JLA, including Superman.

This was MM as he should've been written all along, morphing limbs out of nowhere and actually using his versatility, and he did quite well for himself.."

Many comic book characters suffer from amnesia of their abilities. MM is not special in that regard. How many times has Superman merely forgotten to move at super speed to avoid an attack? There was even a ridiculous storyline in the Superman books where Mongol Jr. trained Supes to use more than one ability at the same time. Are you kidding me??? By that point in time Supes had been doing the hero thing for over ten years and that possibility never occurred to him???

I wonder if Lois has to remind him to flush the toilet when he's done.

Originally posted by donxavier
Just citing examples that I can remember, Supes and MM have fought at least four times in comic book history.

1- Pre-Crisis: Supes defeated MM to obtain a key that MM was protecting.


As good as time as any to bust out some of the ol' Supergod scans...

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/Spire84/Superman/th_SupergodvMM1.jpg http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/Spire84/Superman/th_SupergodvMM2.jpg http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/Spire84/Superman/th_SupergodvMM3.jpg http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/Spire84/Superman/th_SupergodvMM4.jpg http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/Spire84/Superman/th_Supergodvmm5.jpg http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/Spire84/Superman/th_SupergodvMM6.jpg

Originally posted by Spire
As good as time as any to bust out some of the ol' Supergod scans...

Nice stuff, and that's when Mongul one shots Supes.

The power gulf seemed a lot higher between them pre crisis.. I think post crisis, if MM was written as more than a one dimensional brick, it'd be a good fight.

You know, instead of trying to tank Supes best punch, maybe actually phase shift. Maybe extend a limb a little to catch him off guard, or grow a few extra limbs.. Maybe even go invisible. With Supes senses, it wouldn't throw him off like it might other characters, but every little bit helps...

In an arena fight, I'm a fan of the psi attack, physical knockout tactic. Superman can resist mind attacks, but even he'd be hard pressed to avoid getting knocked out while resisting one...

Jonn.

I agree that MM has been woefully underwritten and underused in the past. I've always liked him better when he wasn't written as a green Superman knockoff.

Unfortunately, comic book characters are not always written properly. Batman is a prime example of this. Whenever he's in the JLA books they augment him so much to make him relevant that they make him nigh perfect. I mean having him take out a group of villains (White Martians) when the other league members are struggling to deal with one each is crazy.

Originally posted by donxavier
I agree that MM has been woefully underwritten and underused in the past. I've always liked him better when he wasn't written as a green Superman knockoff.

Unfortunately, comic book characters are not always written properly. Batman is a prime example of this. Whenever he's in the JLA books they augment him so much to make him relevant that they make him nigh perfect. I mean having him take out a group of villains (White Martians) when the other league members are struggling to deal with one each is crazy.

http://www.frontiernet.net/~gehring/images/GoddamnBatman.jpg

"Maybe even go invisible. With Supes senses, it wouldn't throw him off like it might other characters, but every little bit helps..."

J'onn tried that during their fight in Armageddon 2001. He went invisible but Supes just listened for his heart beat to find him and then the ass beating began.

On a separate note, I've always wondered why Supes didn't develop some form of telepathic ability. If yellow sunlight augments his physical abilities why does it not do the same to his brain? I mean more than just giving him a photographic memory and super speed memorization.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/2.jpg

I'd go with MMH initially. How bad is the heat vulnerabilty these days?

Originally posted by batdude123
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/2.jpg
Comic books really need to stop using 'fap' as a sound effect.

jonn

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Comic books really need to stop using 'fap' as a sound effect.

IDK i kinda like it....its not "SNIKT" though thats for sure

i think i already weighed in my vote but just in case im wrong

MM FTW

Originally posted by cdtm
Ostrander had Martian Manhunter take on the entire JLA, including Superman.

This was MM as he should've been written all along, morphing limbs out of nowhere and actually using his versatility, and he did quite well for himself.. But no major one vs one tussles or anything. Still, Ostranders run gave some solid arguments for why MM should really own Supes.

However, a white martian had Supes dead to rights by engulfing and smothering him, and HV doesn't create fire in and of itself so that wasn't saving him. In the end, it was the fire from Earths core that saved him, but MM is smart enough to avoid that...

There's also one issue where MM had Ultraman basically defeated and immobilized.. Wish I know the issue. Been looking for that one for awhile..

I think Morrison did it.

JLA: Earth-2.

In a comic, Superman wins 8/10. On KMC Martian wins 8 or 9/10. He IS Supes with additional powers.

Originally posted by carver9
In a comic, Superman wins 8/10. On KMC Martian wins 8 or 9/10. He IS Supes with additional powers.

not to mention cooler!!!

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
JLA: Earth-2.

Thanks.

It was a pretty awesome scene, too.

"This is NOT combat! You were beaten the moment you chose to engage me!"

Punked.

Originally posted by batdude123
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/2.jpg

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/th_MMStewart.jpg

----

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/th_SupesStewart1.jpghttp://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/th_SupesStewart2.jpg

Or like.. J'onn kicking some Imperiex Probes asses, right?

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/th_MMImperiexProbes.jpghttp://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/th_MMImperiexProbes1.jpg

Superman wins. His just a notch above John in raw power.

People love to claim that he goes intangible and mind rapes but that's not much more likely than Superman performing some heat vision lobotomy or tossing John in the Sun.

Originally posted by batdude123
http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/6628/aquamandemandsrespect013mn.jpg
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/1111/aquamandemandsrespect028ft.jpg "Oh, my.."

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/th_PreusMM1.jpghttp://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/th_PreusMM2.jpghttp://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/th_PreusMM3.jpg

I lol'd pretty hard when I read that issue.

MM has all of Supes abilities plus a few more but none of them are as potent. He's strong, but Supers is clearly stronger. He's fast but Supes could still speed blitz him.

Let off the leash, Superman is just an extremely powerful individual. Capable of going toe to toe with enemies that would squash other heroes...Doomsday comes to mind. Also, look at how quickly Superman took people like Lobo apart when he was possessed by Eclipso.

"Oh, my..." indeed.

"oh, my..."

That is hilarious.

It does illustrate a good point. The intangible thing only works if MM is fast enough to use it before getting a chestful of heat vision. I mean it is light so even if MM and Supes are separated by 30yrds it would hit MM before he could even blink.

"Here's some images to sleep on"

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/th_SupesMMMental1.jpghttp://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/th_SupesMMMental2.jpg

"You're the master"

http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/th_SupesMMMaster.jpg

ha-som

I'm off for now. Martian Mind is sending death threats on PM.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Superman wins. His just a notch above John in raw power.

People love to claim that he goes intangible and mind rapes but that's not much more likely than Superman performing some heat vision lobotomy or tossing John in the Sun.

If you take the sum total of Supermans appearances, and the sum total of MM's, and average it out, he's probably about as likely (If not more likely!) to use his powers properly as Supes is to use his.

John Ostrander is a good starting point, but there's examples throughout his League tenure and in various other comics..

Superman is just plain better, as Phil and I have made painfully obvious.

Originally posted by batdude123
Superman is just plain better, as Phil and I have made painfully obvious.
But Martian Manhunter could shapeshift into Batman.

Originally posted by cdtm
If you take the sum total of Supermans appearances, and the sum total of MM's, and average it out, he's probably about as likely (If not more likely!) to use his powers properly as Supes is to use his.

John Ostrander is a good starting point, but there's examples throughout his League tenure and in various other comics..

Luckily for Clark though, he doesn't have to use his powers properly to defeat John. He can just plain do a plain beat down. No fancy shit needed.

And also what Batdude said.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
But Martian Manhunter could shapeshift into Batman.

A cheap imitation.

Originally posted by batdude123
A cheap imitation.
Still, a simulacrum of Batman is still >(if only by a tiny margin) Superman.

Not if the simulacrum is Martian Manhunter.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Luckily for Clark though, he doesn't have to use his powers properly to defeat John. He can just plain do a plain beat down. No fancy shit needed.

And also what Batdude said.

Well yeah, but that's like saying WW can kick Flashes arse without the speed force tricks.. Sure, it'll happen 9 times out of 10, but half the point of these slugfests is to go beyond the lameness of the typical comic book fight.

Superman wins.

Accept it.

http://i40.tinypic.com/11taq9j.gif

Originally posted by batdude123
Superman is just plain better, as Phil and I have made painfully obvious.

O_o Wait, you're serious? I thought you guys were just playing around.

I mean, you can post low end feats on anyone.

Not for nothing but wasn't it explicitly stated that the reason Plastic Man was brought into the JLA was his telepathic immunity because at the time the JLA had no real contingency for dealing with a hypothetical evil/bloodlusted Martian Manhunter? (Including having Superman try to stop him)

Originally posted by batdude123
Superman wins.

Accept it.

http://i40.tinypic.com/11taq9j.gif

Hard to argue against the victory dance.

You do know I'm not gonna accept it, though.

But nice dance. ^_^

Originally posted by carver9
In a comic, Superman wins 8/10. On KMC Martian wins 8 or 9/10. He IS Supes with additional powers.

I think Superman is stronger and has better endurance and durability most of the time.


J'onn can shapeshift himself to match or pass Superman in a specific area, but that takes energy.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Not for nothing but wasn't it explicitly stated that the reason Plastic Man was brought into the JLA was his telepathic immunity because at the time the JLA had no real contingency for dealing with a hypothetical evil/bloodlusted Martian Manhunter? (Including having Superman try to stop him)

Yes, that was his reason. Fernus's telepathy was so potent, Stewart actually needed The Guardians to fill his brain with a dead alien language, just to keep MM from mind screwing him long enough to rescue his teammates...

Plas was completely synthetic, which made him immune to the telepathy.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Not for nothing but wasn't it explicitly stated that the reason Plastic Man was brought into the JLA was his telepathic immunity because at the time the JLA had no real contingency for dealing with a hypothetical evil/bloodlusted Martian Manhunter? (Including having Superman try to stop him)

You're talking about one arc (Trial by Fire) where J'onn had his moment in the sun.

Outside of that, Superman is consistently portrayed as being above him.

Originally posted by batdude123
You're talking about one arc (Trial by Fire) where J'onn had his moment in the sun.

Outside of that, Superman is consistently portrayed as being above him.
One arc that apparently steamed your beans.

No arguments there, I'm just pointing out the problems with your assertions about Superman being 100% superior in every way to J'onn when that's clearly not true. Superman can't even compete with J'onn when it comes to telepathy and shapeshifting because Superman lacks those powers.

Originally posted by Q99
I think Superman is stronger and has better endurance and durability most of the time.


J'onn can shapeshift himself to match or pass Superman in a specific area, but that takes energy.

I think the Captain Marvel and MM fight from JLA was a pretty good litmus test of where they are physically. MM was able to hold his own for a bit, but he was always a step behind and eventually was simply overpowered..

Although, MM also knocked Billy out, once the entity mind controlling left him and he had no idea he was in a fight anymore. A cheap win, but it proves he could hurt someone on Supes level, if he gets in a good opening.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
No arguments there, I'm just pointing out the problems with your assertions about Superman being 100% superior in every way to J'onn when that's clearly not true. Superman can't even compete with J'onn when it comes to telepathy and shapeshifting because Superman lacks those powers.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious there, sport.

Originally posted by batdude123
Thanks for pointing out the obvious there, sport.
All in a day's work, citizen.
http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2009-06-17/1245254928466.jpg

Originally posted by batdude123
You're talking about one arc (Trial by Fire) where J'onn had his moment in the sun.

Outside of that, Superman is consistently portrayed as being above him.

Not true. Morrison was pretty consistent about writing up MM..

I think it was Morrison that had Supes make the infamous speech how J'onn is the one JLAer he wouldn't want to fight.

To be fair to J'onn, he's never been written the same ever since they discovered there's no life on Mars.

Originally posted by cdtm
Not true. Morrison was pretty consistent about writing up MM..

I think it was Morrison that had Supes make the infamous speech how J'onn is the one JLAer he wouldn't want to fight.

And Morrison has given Superman some of his best feats ever.

You can find more instances of J'onn jerking Superman than vice-versa.

Originally posted by cdtm
I think the Captain Marvel and MM fight from JLA was a pretty good litmus test of where they are physically. MM was able to hold his own for a bit, but he was always a step behind and eventually was simply overpowered..

Although, MM also knocked Billy out, once the entity mind controlling left him and he had no idea he was in a fight anymore. A cheap win, but it proves he could hurt someone on Supes level, if he gets in a good opening.

Agreed. SM, CM, and WW are slightly more suited for direct combat, MM's more versatile.

Originally posted by batdude123
And Morrison has given Superman some of his best feats ever.

You can find more instances of J'onn jerking Superman than vice-versa.
Morrison gives all his characters the best feats ever. Except Wonder Woman. He doesn't seem to like Wonder Woman very much.

Originally posted by batdude123
And Morrison has given Superman some of his best feats ever.

You can find more instances of J'onn jerking Superman than vice-versa.

Well, he's Superman.

And that just makes the MM pimping even more special. Would it be worth anything for Morrison to jerk J'onn if he blatantly hated Superman? I know I'd dismiss it, on the grounds that he's just doing more of his Superman hatin'

Anyways, so far the main arguments for the pro Superman side seem to be that J'onn can't win this head to head. You'll get no argument from me on that..

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Morrison gives all his characters the best feats ever.

M3lGKMXYOG8

Originally posted by batdude123
M3lGKMXYOG8

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Morrison gives all his characters the best feats ever. Except Wonder Woman. He doesn't seem to like Wonder Woman very much.

She still gets some good moments, but she tends to get large-scale background tasks while someone else fights the main villain.

I.e. Superman fights Asmodel, Diana holds up his city sized ship that burns her flesh at the touch. Or leading the external attack against Mageddon while Superman goes on the inside.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Morrison gives all his characters the best feats ever. Except Wonder Woman. He doesn't seem to like Wonder Woman very much.

JLA: Earth 2 was also really good for Kyle.

Boxing in the entire Crime Syndicate, especially Ultraman, for hours? O_O

With that kind of power, Kyle should never lose a fight, ever.

the best description of j'onn for me is the jack of all trades, master of none one. he's strong, but not as strong as superman and so on and so forth (as someone already said).

lol @ him being superman with extra powers, though.

Originally posted by -Pr-
he's strong, but not as strong as superman well strictly from a logical standpoint, the pulling of earth feat was presumably a 33% type deal give or take, but nobody was pulling say 50% that as much is clear. (and there wasn't any holding back there by any party since the earth was in danger and had to be moved.)

with that being said, how could you give superman a strength advantage that would make a major difference between the two? especially in a combat situation given the vast array of j'onn's powers that can be used in tandem

Originally posted by -Pr-
the best description of j'onn for me is the jack of all trades, master of none one. he's strong, but not as strong as superman and so on and so forth (as someone already said).

lol @ him being superman with extra powers, though.

More or less, except he excels at telepathy. He's probably one of the top telepaths in comics.

So, you know how Wolverine's tactics kind of fall apart against someone as durable as Superman?

MM can do that. I posted him impaling Etrigan, and I've seen what Morrison had him do to Ultraman. He basically turned him into a human pin cushion. You could actually see little spikes going through his arms and body. Also, Kanto's invulnerable, and the firepits can't even harm him where it harmed Superman, and he was scared of MM's sword arm.

Screw the invisibility. mindscrews, phase shifting, I just want to see MM eviscerate people.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
well strictly from a logical standpoint, the pulling of earth feat was presumably a 33% type deal give or take, but nobody was pulling say 50% that as much is clear. (and there wasn't any holding back there by any party since the earth was in danger and had to be moved.)

with that being said, how could you give superman a strength advantage that would make a major difference between the two? especially in a combat situation given the vast array of j'onn's powers that can be used in tandem

because he's stronger?

yes, it's not going to be the deal breaker given j'onn's versatility, but kal isn't exactly a one trick pony either.

the pulling of the earth feat, granted, but superman has higher strength feats that that, including one of moving the earth with only one other person.

Originally posted by cdtm
More or less, except he excels at telepathy. He's probably one of the top telepaths in comics.

i'd give him that, but even he's been beaten by telepaths/kept out by strong minds before.

Originally posted by -Pr-
because he's stronger?

yes, it's not going to be the deal breaker given j'onn's versatility, but kal isn't exactly a one trick pony either.

the pulling of the earth feat, granted, but superman has higher strength feats that that, including one of moving the earth with only one other person.



i'd give him that, but even he's been beaten by telepaths/kept out by strong minds before.

True, but it's hard to know where his limitations begin and his personal ethics end.

Unlike a certain high level telepath in Marvel, he doesn't like invading someones mind without their permission, and there's some depths he simply won't go to.