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http://www.samruby.com/Villains/Kraven/KravenSensational.gif
Kraven

VS

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/images/headshots/wolverine_b.jpg Wolverine

Scenario? I ain't got one.

They just fight till one dies.

not much of a fight really.....when's the last time kraven's succussfuly hunted something?

He's kicked Spideys ass once.

Plus, he can run real fast

I think Kraven can take Wolvie pretty easily.

wolverine took down speed demon...his "running" abilities won't help him here....when kraven gives spidey a hard time...it's usually with a serious amount of preparation......I'm thinking....nothing he has in his arsenal isn't something wolverine's not capible of dealing with.....

wolverine real easy; wolverine might make fun of kraven and his effort.

Originally posted by jinzin
wolverine took down speed demon...his "running" abilities won't help him here....when kraven gives spidey a hard time...it's usually with a serious amount of preparation......I'm thinking....nothing he has in his arsenal isn't something wolverine's not capible of dealing with.....

Wolverine took down Speed Demon in an enclosed area, it would be a lot different out in the open..... (unless your thinking of a different fight than i am)

but yeah... he'd kill Kraven

Originally posted by long pig
http://www.samruby.com/Villains/Kraven/KravenSensational.gif
Kraven
VS
http://www.uncannyxmen.net/images/headshots/wolverine_b.jpg Wolverine
Scenario? I ain't got one.
They just fight till one dies.
That X-MEN.NET description of Wolverine is pure crap.
Wolverine does NOT have "enhanced" agility, speed, reflexes.
That's pure fanboyism.
That said, Wolverine should be able to beat Kraven.
It won't be easy though. Kraven's tough.
If Kraven planned ahead for Wolverine,
then Wolvie will go down.

if he doesn't have enhanced agility how is he able to jump up to the top of a sentenal in one leap?

i mean I know he's not mystically or scientiffically enhanced.....but he's shown to be farrrr more than human in feats alone...

Originally posted by Zahit
That said, Wolverine should be able to beat Kraven.
It won't be easy though. Kraven's tough.
If Kraven planned ahead for Wolverine,
then Wolvie will go down.
I kind of agree. Kraven is tough and is a bit underrated. But Wolverine remains tougher and more dangerous.

If Kraven knew about Wolverines abilities and would set up a trap, I think he could pull it off. But if Kraven makes one mistake, he's dead (even more "deader" than he is now lol).

"If Kraven planned ahead for Wolverine,
then Wolvie will go down."

these battles are without prep unless otherwise stated....if they weren't there would be no point in the deathstroke, doom, or batman threads whatsoever...lol

In a strictly NO-PREP scenario:
Wolverine beats Kraven.

Yup.

Originally posted by Zahit
That X-MEN.NET description of Wolverine is pure crap.
Wolverine does NOT have "enhanced" agility, speed, reflexes.
That's pure fanboyism.
That said, Wolverine should be able to beat Kraven.
It won't be easy though. Kraven's tough.
If Kraven planned ahead for Wolverine,
then Wolvie will go down.

like jinzin said.wolverine has done plenty to show he has enhanced agility,speed and reflexes.

Originally posted by mr.smiley
like jinzin said.wolverine has done plenty to show he has enhanced agility,speed and reflexes.
Show me ANY example of Wolverine doing anything above human-level agility.
Daredevil does NOT have enhanced agility.
Does Wolverine ever show agility like Daredevil's?
No.

hang on

Originally posted by Zahit
Show me ANY example of Wolverine doing anything above human-level agility.
Daredevil does NOT have enhanced agility.
Does Wolverine ever show agility like Daredevil's?
No.
So very very true....Obviously you read comics without completely kicking logic to the curb. I think that Kraven would give Wolverine a harder time than a few of Wolvies regular opponents but would end up dead after his first big mistake....I say big because the guy wrestles tigers and gorrillas and that doesn't really allow for mistakes.

new xmen 133 for one example.Now him taking out a small militia of terrorist could be explained by his healing factor,saying that the bullets did not hurt him,but look how fast he dismembers the last terrorist hand.
He's moving pretty damn fast.Maybe not super fast,but faster than the average human could.

Originally posted by The MISTER
So very very true....Obviously you read comics without completely kicking logic to the curb. I think that Kraven would give Wolverine a harder time than a few of Wolvies regular opponents but would end up dead after his first big mistake....I say big because the guy wrestles tigers and gorrillas and that doesn't really allow for mistakes.

wolverine has also wrestled animals

Oh wait.....
My Bad.
I did a little research and you're right!!!!
Logan DOES have enhanced agility.
Here:

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
that was funny...

but my whole point is,a guy who hunts deer with his bare hands (or claws),has above average human reflexis

that's..................disturbing....

anyways....in one of wolverine's books he went undercover or some such and dispalyed enough agility to trick people into believing he was spiderman,,,,then beast,,,,then captain america.......he can be pretty damn agile when he wants to......

and what's human about jumping 35 feet into the air?

That Kraven's always dying.

Seriously, we should just cut to the chase and put Wolverine up against Black Tarantula.

Also, upon finishing the Starman comics I discovered my Shade vs Wolverine thread was even bigger rape than I thought.

Originally posted by jinzin
anyways....in one of wolverine's books he went undercover or some such and dispalyed enough agility to trick people into believing he was spiderman,,,,then beast,,,,then captain america.......he can be pretty damn agile when he wants to......

and what's human about jumping 35 feet into the air? How is jumping 35 feet in the air possible for any creature limited to human strength and lugging an adamantium skeleton around as well? He would have to have as much leg strength as the Beast at least and he's not even noted to have that much...Picture's are sometimes just unexplained... Do you think that the hulk changes sizes from moment to moment like he does in his pictures? Cause one minute he has an adult in the palm of his hand and a few panels later you may see another adult standing only two heads shorter than him.... It looks cool though.

well hulk actually has the ability to change in size depending on incarnation and rage factor....my whole point was that everyone thinks wolverine's simply human when almost all his feats would indicate otherwise....

Well lets see... Wolverine would be pretty easy for any Hunter to take down, jeesh, why dont we even ask Mr. Wolverine?

ummmmm wolverine's take down bears and RUN down elk.......but that aside.....has nothing to do with the fight.........have you seen what happens to other hunter's that wolverine fights? it ain't pretty...

lol, well... lol.

yeah it was funny I'll give ya that...

Aww.... Hes still a cutie pie.
He's just a little wolverine trying to make his life away from all the fandom.

ughhhh confused

Wolverine does have speed and agility, its a step below spiderman. Read the 1st issue of hulk and wolverine fight, it simply state in there that he has blinding speed. I seen 1 comic where wolverine was standing like 20 ft away from a soldier and he told the soldier that the worst thing he could do would be to pull the trigger on that gun. The guy pulled the trigger and wolverine jerked to the side and it gazed his face. In a milli second wolverine speed across the piles of bodied chopping the man hand off.

Another example of his speed was when he was held at point blank by 3 mob guys in a room, they all had guns at his chest. wolverine claws popped out sliced the guns and he had his hands back on his side without them seeing it. About a minute later the guys guns fell apart and they didnt even see wolverine move a muscle. Now that is blinding speed.
Another time was when he was doing an investigation on a little girl that was kidnapped. He was thought by the world as being dead, thats when he got the secret identity as patch. He was on a roof and spiderman was slinging by. He see wolverine but he thought that it was an imposter. So he ends up sling over to wolverine trying to punch him but ends up shattering a chimney because wolverine dodged him with ease, while dodging he lit a cigar.

Spiderman turns around and see wolverine standing a couple of feet behind him questioning wolverine speed saying "this guy moves as fast as i do, i didnt even see him move." Spiderman press his attack again but this time wolverine dodge his punch grabbed him and kicked him in the stomach, sending spiderman flying a couple of feat. Then wolverine popped out his claws and he realizes that it is the real wolverine.

its in a marvel team up book.

I think the reason most people don't want to accept the fact that Wolvie doesn't have enhanced speed, is because .....he shouldn't.
No where in his earlier appearences did he have it, or has anyone(writers) ever said it.
He just -seemed- to gain it after he became all uber popular.

People, including myself really hate on Wolvie, he gets away with doing things he just shouldn't be able to do.
Plus, us people over 20 liked him when he was always the underdog, and the "fallen samuri who couldn't trust himself, much less his teammates" as jinzin said.

Most of us identified with the loner/underdog/can't get the broads he wants/ type wolvie.

Not the dude who takes on Thanos.

Originally posted by long pig
I think the reason most people don't want to accept the fact that Wolvie doesn't have enhanced speed, is because .....he shouldn't.
No where in his earlier appearences did he have it, or has anyone(writers) ever said it.
Plus he's lugging around like 100lbs of extra weight.

you all are telling the truth about wolverine except its one thing you forgot. Apocalypse did give him an upgrade, thats when his speed and strength was boosted. Didnt you notice before that wolverine wasnt able to pierce hulk skin but when he was death and he fought hulk, he almost killed him.
Him and sabertooth got a upgrade, sabertooth got his from weapon x and wolverine got his from apocalypse. So wolverine now has speed and strength (on marvel website from 1-7 he is listed as 4) and agility. I do like the old wolvie better but im kind of glad that he got the upgrade because he was getting slapped around by to many weak characters. Another thing, during the time wolverine went feral, during the time that he forced the adamantium out of his body, it was stated that wolverine healing factor was increased dramatically. Beast and the professor tested it and the guy got ran over by a car and got right back up. So he has gotten a dramatic increase in power lately.

I think all of those enhancements went away after he was no longer Death, Derrick24. That, and his adamantium is back, so no more super healing factor.

Everything everyone else said is right: Wolvie does things he shouldn't be doing, and it's probably due to his popularity. He's supposed to be no stronger, faster, or be able to react faster than any human could ever be (somewhere matching or just below Captain America), but a character's limits doesn't seem to worry writers much unless it suits them.

But be honest, everyone here freakin loved the guy at one point in time.

Hell Yea!

Of course! My manager is obsessed with him, to the point where us employees think he changed his name to what it is now: Logan.

good fight but i think logan wins

Originally posted by long pig
But be honest, everyone here freakin loved the guy at one point in time.
Heh, my point was when I was eleven.

See? Even the allmighty Swank was a Wolvie fanboy!

It took me till i was 12 to realize the chances of me actually getting adamantium bones was slim to nill.

Logan is going to be a big part of american culture in 20 years.
All he needs is a theme song....

Originally posted by long pig
See? Even the allmighty Swank was a Wolvie fanboy!
Well, at the time I only knew like 4 comic book characters.

If I could go back in time I'd be like "Check this! He's a space cop and he can make whatever he wants out of his ring by imagining it!

This guy controls the shadows and he'll flat out kill people who mess with his city or friends! Not sure you'd be into that yet though.

And this guy is just a man but he uses his genius to take out just about anyone. And he's got a robit suit! He's like Batman but you'll think this guy is cool.

Plus any of them would beat Wolverine into a pile of maple syrup and hockey sticks."

The problem with this topic is that there is a lack of objectivity and quite a few people who seem to be angry and not very objective. Wolverine has become an annoyingly overexposed and familiar character to many. Familiarity leads to contempt. For that reason people on these forums are always going to say that just about any character can beat Wolverine. Regardless of what examples or arguments are used.

But some facts need to be straightened out.

In the Marvel Universe Master Edition, Issue 4, Wolverine's strength, agility, and reflexes are listed as enhanced. In the Marvel Universe for Wolverine that came out in 2004 they were on level 4 (800 lb to 25 ton range). In the X-Men Marvel Universe that came out in 2004 this was the same. In the Marvel Universe for the Age of Apacolypse that came out in 2005, same thing. Level 4. Marvel Website: Level 4.

In the Earlier Marvel Universes Editions strength levels were not as accurate. In the Marvel Universe Deluxe Edition Issue 16, in the appendix it lists Wolverine as having upper human level strength on the same level as the King Pin and Captain America. It also lists many (probably 30 percent) in the wrong category. Hyperion (Squadron Supreme) is able to lift way over 100 tons and they had him in the class 70 range.

In later editions, such as the Master Edition, it was decided by the editors at Marvel that Wolverine is not in the peak human range, but in the enhanced range. This means that he can lift around 1000 lbs. The comic books have always demonstrated that since the days that John Byrne started drawing the X-Men. In X-Men 111 Wolverine broke steel bonds without using his claws. In the Wolverine monthly series he lifted 6 people off of the ground and ran across a room and through a solid wall. He doesn't show off his physical abilities because he would rather his opponents did not know he had them. It works to his advantage to be underestimated.

Even now, in the newer Marvel Universes you will see his strength level at level 4. Level 4 covers a broad range or levels. It covers the enhanced human range (able to overhead press between 800 lbs and
1 ton), superhuman class 10 (able to overhead press between 2 tons and 10 tons), and superhuman class 25 (able to lift between 15 and 25 tons). Wolverine is in the lowest level. Check the Marvel website.

Having a regenerative healing ability that does not allow his tissues to degrade or decay, in combination with tensile strength and wieght of his skeleton would naturally give Wolverine low superhuman (enhanced) strength.

He would still only be about half as strong as Kraven was when Kraven was juiced up. Kraven was in the superhuman class 10 level on his potion (roughly near Spiderman, but a little weaker).

However, Wolverine's reflexes and agility would be superior to Kraven's whether or not Kraven was on the dope.

Since it won't let me edit (and summerize) my last post. I will explain this again.

Wolverine's regenerative healing ability does not allow his tissues to atrophy or decay. This combined with the tensile strength of his skeleton, the weight he carries around, and the intense level of physical excercise he engages in, would logically result in low superhuman strength. Not in the range of Spiderman and certainly not the Hulk, but roughly in the range of the Man-Thing or Vermin who can lift about 1000 lbs. In fact, Wolverine fought Vermin and easily over powered him, proving that point. Likewise his senses, agility, and reflexes are also enhanced. His healing ablit allows him to achieve levels of physical strength just beyond that of olympic athletes, but only by a narrow margin. So it wouldn't be that apparent.

There are certain barriers that Olympic athletes can't get passed because a human skeleton would simply break down, and they are only able to perform at peak range for the best years of thier lives. Now imagine how strong they could get if they could extend those years? And also imagine how strong they could get if thier skeleton was unbreakable and thier ligaments and tendons would always be in absolute peak human condition?

I know a little something about strength. I lift wieghts and can dead lift 90 lb over my head with each arm individually and with relative ease. But a frustrating thing about wieght lifting is when you tear a muscle. I once injured my rotator cuff and it took me almost a year to get to the same level and my shoulder is still sore. So I am not just talking out of my butt.

The enhanced range is just beyond the peak human range. This means that it can be difficult for an observer to tell the difference between the two levels and it also means that characters such as Captain America and Daredevil can keep up with Wolverine and may appear to be as agile as he. But they aren't.

When someone argues that they have seen evidence of something but that the evidence doesn't count because that character "shouldn't be able to do that" they need to re-think the premise of thier conclusion. A characters abilities are based on what he or she demonstrates he or she can do, not on what someone thought they could do at one time.

So, I should just agree that Wolverine can beat Lobo?
Not happening.

Great post, but I disagree on a few things...

wow majestic..that was an incredible post man....well done (gives applause)

This will be Kravan last hunt....again revenge

Originally posted by long pig
He's kicked Spideys ass once.

Plus, he can run real fast

I think Kraven can take Wolvie pretty easily.




Wolverine

Keep the faith

nah that won't be happening atall.

Originally posted by long pig
So, I should just agree that Wolverine can beat Lobo?
Not happening.

When did I mention Lobo?

That's right I didn't.

You are not only bringing up a character that is entirely irrelevent to this, but one from a different universe?

Lobo is completely different than Kraven. Lobo could kill Kraven the Hunter by spitting on him at a high velocity. Lobo could probably wave his hand in the air and create a sonic boom that would shatter Kraven's skeleton.

Kraven and Lobo are nothing alike.

In ANY WAY.

Kraven always seemed to me like a closet homosexual. I'm not sure how that is relevant but I just thought I should point it out.

Have you ever seen the cover of his first appearance? You talk about Scary!! It looked like he was about to do something to Spiderman right out of prison movie.

Wolverine is going to have a field day with Kraven. Kraven can only be evassive for so long. But in the end Kraven is just going to get wolverine mad enough to cut him lim from lim. Instead of just his constant jab to the chest.

Originally posted by Majestic_Lizard
When did I mention Lobo?

That's right I didn't.

You are not only bringing up a character that is entirely irrelevent to this, but one from a different universe?

Lobo is completely different than Kraven. Lobo could kill Kraven the Hunter by spitting on him at a high velocity. Lobo could probably wave his hand in the air and create a sonic boom that would shatter Kraven's skeleton.

Kraven and Lobo are nothing alike.

In ANY WAY.

Calm down big boy....

I was just commenting that Wolverine and Lobo faught, and Wolvie won.
And going by what you said, I should accept it -because it happend-.

How many fights did Spidey actually have with Kraven?

I know the first couple were retconned so that Deadpool fought them instead...

Originally posted by 8bitChris
I know the first couple were retconned so that Deadpool fought them instead...

???????????????

The Wolverine Vs. Lobo garbage was something people voted on. Writers had no creative control over it.

There have been many instances to prove Wolverine's physical abilities. They are just subtle. If there had only been one inconsistancy it wouldn't really matter but Wolverine has done many things that would require enhanced strength and agility.

That and it would be logical consequence of lugging around a 100 pound skeleton and having a musculature that only gets stronger and never degrades qualitatively.

Kraven would still be several times stronger than Wolverine and he would be faster in terms of covering distance, but slower in terms of reaction time.

Kraven would initially come up with some type of elaborate trap and catch Wolverine and probably overload his healing factor with bubonic plague or something. It is unlikely Kraven would be stupid enough to come in close quarters with Logan indefinately. He would jump in get a few blows and then haul off and shoot darts a Logan from the top of a building.

However, Kraven is arrogant and also crazy. Eventually, he is going to use whatever cheap means at his disposal to nuetralize Logan's healing factor and he will not be able to resist the tempation to come in close and finish the X-Man off. He will want Logan to know who beat him before he kills him.

Then it will turn out someone was faking and there is one less homicidal Russian.

Logan

Originally posted by Majestic_Lizard
The Wolverine Vs. Lobo garbage was something people voted on. Writers had no creative control over it.

There have been many instances to prove Wolverine's physical abilities. They are just subtle. If there had only been one inconsistancy it wouldn't really matter but Wolverine has done many things that would require enhanced strength and agility.

That and it would be logical consequence of lugging around a 100 pound skeleton and having a musculature that only gets stronger and never degrades qualitatively.

Kraven would still be several times stronger than Wolverine and he would be faster in terms of covering distance, but slower in terms of reaction time.

Kraven would initially come up with some type of elaborate trap and catch Wolverine and probably overload his healing factor with bubonic plague or something. It is unlikely Kraven would be stupid enough to come in close quarters with Logan indefinately. He would jump in get a few blows and then haul off and shoot darts a Logan from the top of a building.

However, Kraven is arrogant and also crazy. Eventually, he is going to use whatever cheap means at his disposal to nuetralize Logan's healing factor and he will not be able to resist the tempation to come in close and finish the X-Man off. He will want Logan to know who beat him before he kills him.

Then it will turn out someone was faking and there is one less homicidal Russian.

thank you his inconsistencies are public knowledge now.

You are missing the point.

If its one event you call it an inconsistancy, if it is many different events it is the basis of a definition. We call this inductive reasoning. If writers such as Byrne and Claremont keep having Wolverine do things that require low level superhuman strength they might be trying to tell us something. The only inconsistancy is between the old edition of the Marvel Universes and the newer editions which correlate with what the character has always been capable of.

Wolverine Vs. Lobo was an inconsistancy. Wolverine could not beat someone who could possibly beat up Superman. It really doesn't count because it was not decided by what the characters are capable of, it was decided by people calling a hot line.

Wolverines enhanced strength, agility, and reflexes have always been there. He has thrown motorcycles, lifted 6 people over his head with one arm, broken steal bonds without the use of his claws, etc. He has caught arrows from high powered bows in mid-air (a feet I can assure you is impossible for an ordinary human; try it and see). These abilities, like his senses, stem from the fact that his bodily tissues never degrade or atrophy. Not only are they perfect, but because of the increased tensile strength of his skeleton they go beyond being perfect.

Unlike an olympic athlete who would have to train vigorously to maintain a level of physique, Wolverine is always as strong as he can possibly be. His equilibrium would be greater than any normal human as a side effect of his senses. His ligaments and tendons would never tear or would heal instantaneously. These factors grant that Wolverine, through vigorous excercise, would very quickly outstrip an olympic wieght lifter. And once he has gained that strength he would not lose it. However his strength, being in the enhanced range is not THAT MUCH greater than that of an olympic athlete. So a human in peak human condition, if he is a superb combatant, will be able to fight Wolverine one on one and not get creamed. Especially if the person is using a sword or has drugged Wolverine (Shingen Harada did this in his duel in Wolverine Limited 1).

Hence the term enhanced. Enhanced means that his strength is just beyond the range attainable by a normal human. People keep going by the old 1987 Marvel Universe which was wrong. This was corrected in later editions but apparently no one reads them.

Wolverine would still be considerably weaker than Kraven the Hunter. However, Wolverine has fought many characters in the vast superhuman range and handed them thier asses, so on that merit alone Kraven is not going to just mop up Logan.

Anyway, that is my two cents.

Lobo may also have thrown the fight as Satan did in that episode of South Park where he was in a boxing match with Jesus. So it may have been a scheme by Lobo to scam gamblers out of thier money. This is the most sound explanation (with the fictional universes) I have ever come across.

Originally posted by Majestic_Lizard
Lobo may also have thrown the fight as Satan did in that episode of South Park where he was in a boxing match with Jesus. So it may have been a scheme by Lobo to scam gamblers out of thier money. This is the most sound explanation (with the fictional universes) I have ever come across.

That does make sense. Great insight oh most Majestic of Lizards.

looks like wolvie still wins though, unless kraven uses a cheap tactic.

Yeah, wolvie more likely wins.
But I was thinking of Kraven hunting wolvie, instead of a fight....

Like, could a full powered Kraven hunt down and kill wolverine?

Originally posted by long pig
Yeah, wolvie more likely wins.
But I was thinking of Kraven hunting wolvie, instead of a fight....

Like, could a full powered Kraven hunt down and kill wolverine?

Idon't think Kraven could hunt Wolverine Piggy I think Wolvie would turn round and shred him Silly idea

This kid in love with me. Every post I make, he's tagging along behind me, looking for my attention. It's hilarious.
Whirly, give it a break child, I'm not gay.

Stalk some other man you have a crush on.

Originally posted by long pig
This kid in love with me. Every post I make, he's tagging along behind me, looking for my attention. It's hilarious.
Whirly, give it a break child, I'm not gay.

Stalk some other man you have a crush on.

lol you obviously wish I did

hey mate obviously we post on many of the same threads, but your mouth says no, but your sigs say yes. You just can't take being proven wrong so often, its not my fault your very young and have not read comics very long. I can understand you not being "gay" I suspect your very unhappy and thats why you resort to verbal abuse. I will continue posting on the threads I wish and if as usual you have made illogical or ill founded statements or arguments, I will continue to use logic to shred them. Sorry Piggy, please try and make decent threads and statements and do some research. It is though nice to see you using pics to start your threads in that not many do. At least this is to your credit.

As for your constant references to homosexuality, not being gay myself I would like to suggest a google search on alternative lifestyles would I suspect give you an insight into the subject you really wish to explore on this forum.

I hope I have helped young man, should you have any further psychsexual dilemmas I suggest you ask your mother or school guidance councillor.

Keep Squealing piggy

Keep the faith

and piggy its OK, i don't judge you, as John Lennon said "Its not my bag Brian, but its OK for you, anything that brings love into the world is OK"

winkiss you love me, but sorry i'm a guy winkiss

Damn, writing a book about me there, kiddo?
Did I hit a nerve with the gay remark?


Seriously, talk to someone else from here on.

Originally posted by long pig
Damn, writing a book about me there, kiddo?
Did I hit a nerve with the gay remark?


Seriously, talk to someone else from here on.

Seriously no nerve hit youngster, as usual I have just shown the ill judged nature of you quips And I will continue to prove you wrong if we are on the same thread an I disagree with you.

Keep squealing piggy, you know where the evidence points

winkiss your secrets out sonny, no biggy

Wolverine or Sabertooth would take Kraven apart despite his strength, jungle reflexes, and animal fighting style.

Wolverine would never be suprised, and as with all other faster and stronger people who have fought wolverine, all it takes is one stab from the claws to end it.

Also, wolverine heals so fast he takes negliable damage and can hang on till his claws hit.

poor wolverine.