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Why is it that the republic is supposed to be a democracy and the Jedi , for some reason, have obviously nominated themselves the enforcers of it?
I mean, you got this huge Galactic Republic right and its purpose is to ( I gather) serve the greater good of the galaxy and handle all dealings to do with trade, negotiations,economy etc... but the Jedi apparently know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil and therefore take it upon themselves to settle disputes and any other issues that may involve potential violence or aggression. I get the feeling they see themselves as self appointed heroes or leaders simply because a middicloriean said so.
They say the Jedi were the guardians of peace an justice for over a 1000 yrs and yet in all that time they couldnt even take a trip out to the outer rim systems to outlaw slavery on places such as tatooine? whatssamatta? no oil to drill out there?

THe Jedi say the reason there is no " army of the republic " is because it would be too much power for one person ( chancellor ) to have and therefore dangerous.
Whereas wouldnt it be more preferable to say that we need an army of the republic because its too dangerous having these 10,000 dudes walking around with abilities beyond most normal people ( think - mind control, levitation, manipulation, seeing the future etc...) waving dangerous - ass lightsabres making decisions for the galaxy based on what a microscopic organism says?

A classic example is Qui Gon Jin, now this guys takes the cake when it comes to Jedi flouting their powers. In one episode he manages to mind trick and manipulate his way round the galaxy with scoring free subs from Gungins to saving Jar Jar from punishment which inevitably ( in EP2) leads to emergency powers to the Chancellor to form an army of the Repubic, to convincing the queen to land on Tatooine for repairs which leads to the discovery of Anakin which really f**ks the republic up, not to mention trying to mind trick his way to some ship parts with worthless republic credits to flouting the Jedi code and taking on Anakin as a padawan when he already has an apprentice....etc etc
I mean this guy is supposed to be a Jedi for gods sake and he's done nothing but use his powers to influence what HE believes the midicloreans are saying to him.
Yoda admits that there are " reckless" Jedi, even Jedi masters and if they are 10,000 strong then there's bound to be heaps of "reckless" Jedi which would have to be a concern considering the powers they have.
If you look at it the Jedi really rule by fear.

Why do we do it? because the midicloreans said so! What if we dont do it? you'll a lightsabre up your ass!

That pretty much sums it up doesnt it?

Democracy or Death, the chant of the Jedi?

Let's face it without the rebellion, peace and prosperity where much more acheivable goals for the Empire than the bloated republic and its hired jedi goons

Yea... And the decision to "save" jar jar was without any reason!


Qui Gon: "We need a navigator to get through the planet's core. This gungan might be of a help".

5 minutes passes...

Jarjar: "Where are wesa going?"
Qui Gon: "The force will guide us."

DUH!

Interesting argument. However, if you're not going to trust the Jedi's insight, why have them at all? Because, no one is perfect. No person can clearly know what the Force wants. There are times where Jedi foresight is horribly wrong, but same goes for Sith. They feel and then act according to what they believe the Force desires. Palpatine, Yoda, all of them believed in their ways. They all felt the Force was guiding them.

Listen, bud. The Jedi, and Sith, are beings above normal people. They deserve special treatment. The Jedi, and Sith, deserve to rule the galaxy. Their power sets them apart from lesser beings. Their destinies were prescribed by the Force. They will determine what that destiny is. And, along the way, they will face opposition from narrow-minded individual's with the same ideas as you posted. Those people caused all the strife. Not the Jedi or Sith. The weaklings who were jealous of the Jedi's and Sith's powers.

Master C'baoth has already spoken on this matter. I follow his guidance and it is very true. Read his words, and understand

SithFollower, I think you are taking this a little to seriously by "following guidance". It's a movie, man! Reality check!

Originally posted by Sith Follower
Interesting argument. However, if you're not going to trust the Jedi's insight, why have them at all? Because, no one is perfect. No person can clearly know what the Force wants. There are times where Jedi foresight is horribly wrong, but same goes for Sith. They feel and then act according to what they believe the Force desires. Palpatine, Yoda, all of them believed in their ways. They all felt the Force was guiding them.

Listen, bud. The Jedi, and Sith, are beings above normal people. They deserve special treatment. The Jedi, and Sith, deserve to rule the galaxy. Their power sets them apart from lesser beings. Their destinies were prescribed by the Force. They will determine what that destiny is. And, along the way, they will face opposition from narrow-minded individual's with the same ideas as you posted. Those people caused all the strife. Not the Jedi or Sith. The weaklings who were jealous of the Jedi's and Sith's powers.

Master C'baoth has already spoken on this matter. I follow his guidance and it is very true. Read his words, and understand



The Jedi are not above normal people, hence why they serve the greater good of the people i.e.the republic
And like you say, there are times where the Jedi's foresight is horribly wrong but the impact of a Jedis mistake far outweighs the shortsightfullness of a normal person, couple their "clouded" decisions with thier " arrogance" you end up with rogue Jedi such as Qui Gon who take it upon themselves, in defiance, to be reckless with their decision making and in doing so cause immense damage upon those they serve.

Yoda speaks of the future always being "emotions", and this is a normal human trait not specific to Jedi.
Anakin had immense problems with his emotions, once again a trait shared by both Jedi and normal people alike.
In fact, it has been Anakins inability to deal with his emotions that heavily contributed to the downfall of the Republic so by this reckoning we could probably surmise it was, in fact, the normal emotions of normal people that Jedi appear to have the most trouble in dealing with hence why the are deffinatly not above normal people, they could probably learn more from normal people instead of relying on midicloreans.

Jabbar, it was a book.

And to you spekdah, your words have truth to them. The Jedi attempt to deny and hide emotions. This was most evident in Anakin. Even Mace fell to his emotions. However, that emotion is power. You can't let it control you. If you control that emotion, you get power. But, to the topic, the mistakes of Jedis are equal to the good of Jedi. A Jedi destroyed the Republic, and a Jedi rebuilt it. If it had not been for the Jedi, I doubt the Vong would've had much trouble.

Jedi can make serious blunders, but they can do majorly important and helpful things. In a sense, they are gods; gods who are a roll of the dice. You might get a Yoda or Fisto to set order, or you might get an Anakin or Malek who will bring chaos.

!

This is ridiculous.

The Jedi don't assume power. They are GIVEN it by the Republic.

Qui-Gon didn't use hios powers to cheat anyone, else he would have tried to get the ship part of free, not just o give (perfectly valid) currency for it. He used it to help him talk his way through things, on a mission authotised by the Chancellor himself!

Originally posted by Ushgarak
!

This is ridiculous.

The Jedi don't assume power. They are GIVEN it by the Republic.

Qui-Gon didn't use hios powers to cheat anyone, else he would have tried to get the ship part of free, not just o give (perfectly valid) currency for it. He used it to help him talk his way through things, on a mission authotised by the Chancellor himself!

He was giving Watto useless credits, at least for Watto... What would he have done with that money? He loved money he would have taken it if it could have given him a profit.

Saying that Qui Gon was fault that the Republic fell because of him discovering Anakin is completely wrong. If Anakin wouldn't have been found, then nobody would have known that Palpatine was the real sith lord and troublemaker of the galaxy until it would have been too late. Nobody would have been there to tell the jedi that Palpatine was going to overthrow the republic, even if Anakin turned to the dark side in the movie, he was the one to destroy Palpatine. And if Anakin wouldn't have been there, then the jedi wouldn't have known of any betrayal until order 66. The jedi have a very big responsability on their shoulders. If they are not able to control their emotions properly, they would fall to the dark side imediately. A normal every-day person can be as greedy and power hungry as he wants, but if a jedi just has a tiny little bit of these feelings, then they will fall. The jedi are not controlling the republic or the senate, they are there to serve both of them. And to say that the empire caused more order in the galaxy than the old republic might be true, but the cost is that the freedom of every single person in the galaxy is reduced to nothing but a word. And why the jedi couldn't stop slavery in the outer rim? I have a question for you: how many planets do you think has the republic? Thousands more than there are jedi! The jedi aren't able to solve every problem in the galaxy but they do what they can. Without the jedi the republic would have crumbled much earlier.

You have to look at the big picture. Qui-Gon getting Queen Amidala to Coruscant was more important than Watto having money for instance.

Oh yes of course, but the Jedi that claim to never hurt anybody willingly sure do hurt a lot of people for the greater good, thats not the Jedi way. Fact is Jedi are thinking to highly of themselves. Think they can do whatever they want and are more important then other people just because they are Jedi.

Well, yeah but it is better for the majority of the people to have them around then not to...

Are you so sure? The Jedi have spawned many threaths for the Republic, lets not forget that the True Sith have died out and that every mayor threat against the republic now comes from Jedi. Without Jedi those things would still appear but the wars would be less draining and people would be more equipped for it.

Jedi have an amazing power, maybe even to much..

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
You have to look at the big picture. Qui-Gon getting Queen Amidala to Coruscant was more important than Watto having money for instance.


the picture was in fact bigger than just Amidala getting to Coruscant.
OB1 felt it, right at the beginning of Ep1 he says" I have a bad feeling about this, its not the mission its something else" " elusive".
He is told by Qui Gon not to "centre on his ideas " and to live "here and now", Ob1 then comments that master Yoda told him to "mindful of the future" but Qui Gon tells him"not at the expense of the moment".

Right here you get an insight of the recklessness of Qui Gon, he is in fact telling his Padawan to ignore what Yoda says about the force and yet had Qui Gon been "mindful" as his Padawan was he could have been less clouded in his foresight for his decisions on critical future events.

Yes there was a "bigger Picture" Ob1 felt it right at the beginning.

With all the evidence put forward you could almost ask the question , was Qui Gon ( knowingly or not) being influenced but the darkside.

His master ( Dooku) went to the darkside.
He was reckless and defiant which is why he was never accepted onto the Jedi council.
Qui Gon also wanted to break the Jedi code to train Anakin when he knew this wouldnt be allowed and in doing so he showed nothing but disrespect for the Jedi council, code, Anakin ( by promising he would become a Jedi when his insight was so sure the council would approve the training and they didnt therefore leaving Anankin with a bitter taste of rejection). OB1 by pushing him aside to train anakin without completing OB1's training which OB1 had worked hard and devoted his entire life to.
In fact if you look at Qui Gon you can draw a few parrallels with Anakin with his lack of vision, recklessness and rushing o f events to the point where Qui Gon is almost responsible for the events that happen.

The whole point is that Qui-Gon was reckless BUT he was ultimately right. These are GL's words.

"He was giving Watto useless credits, at least for Watto... What would he have done with that money? He loved money he would have taken it if it could have given him a profit."

Republic credits in the Republic! Watto only wouldn't accept them because he was a criminal. QGJ was well within his rights to pay for them that way.

I see no evidence that Jedi think of themselves as better just because they are Jedi- though to be sure, they ARE better,

Originally posted by Ushgarak
The whole point is that Qui-Gon was reckless BUT he was ultimately right. These are GL's words.

"He was giving Watto useless credits, at least for Watto... What would he have done with that money? He loved money he would have taken it if it could have given him a profit."

Republic credits in the Republic! Watto only wouldn't accept them because he was a criminal. QGJ was well within his rights to pay for them that way.

I see no evidence that Jedi think of themselves as better just because they are Jedi- though to be sure, they ARE better,

Watto couldn't use it, that planet didn't use Republic credits and QGJ obviously realised others wouldn't take it as well otherwise he would have tried a different store... He wanted to give Watto credits to just not be all bad.

And this really isn't about QGJ its about the Jedi in General, even Yoda realises there are a few Jedi that have gone overboard with how important they are. In kotor a lot of people hate the Jedi becuase they seem to start wars, sacrifise lives do whatever they think is best and get away with it. They don't have to answer to anybody. Jedi can do a lot of stuff that others can't and they should answer with that power to a few people. They don't understandable on their half, but not really something to do when you claim to help others and work for them. Its hard for people to understand them if you don't explain why you do what you do.

in AOTC Yoda just goes and collects an army made for the republic, what right did he have to do that? He didn't talk to anybody of the Republic with it, he just did it. Yes perhaps it was for the greater good but was it really something he should have done without asking anybody for permission?

Fact is the Jedi do what they want and what they think is right, and that is not always something people will have to agree with and they do not always have to be right. The Jedi make tons of mistakes and many of them just don't seem to realise it.

The planet SHOULD have been accepting credits, legally. But Watto spends his whole time dealing with criminals. Refusing QGJs currency was wrong of Watto. QGJ was in his rights to use it. Like I say, he didn't try to steal the part, or anyhting similar. He was ONLY interested in fair exchange.

Who the hell says that Jedi don't have to answer to anyone? This is total fiction!

"in AOTC Yoda just goes and collects an army made for the republic, what right did he have to do that? He didn't talk to anybody of the Republic with it, he just did it. Yes perhaps it was for the greater good but was it really something he should have done without asking anybody for permission?"

!!!

Did you watch the film? PALPATINE- and the Senate- authorised the use of that army! Egad, at least try and put a little effort into this. That's really poor. The first thing they do with it is go to rescue Jedi and a Senator held captive by a planet where a conspiracy to destroy the Republic has just been put together!

Your final paragraph- a simple lie. It is not reflected at any point in the films.

I cannot believe the spurious nonsense being spouted around here about the Jedi, of late. Everyone is getting this 'I know better than the Jedi' attitude. Like hell you do.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
The planet SHOULD have been accepting credits, legally. But Watto spends his whole time dealing with criminals. Refusing QGJs currency was wrong of Watto. QGJ was in his rights to use it. Like I say, he didn't try to steal the part, or anyhting similar. He was ONLY interested in fair exchange.

Who the hell says that Jedi don't have to answer to anyone? This is total fiction!

"in AOTC Yoda just goes and collects an army made for the republic, what right did he have to do that? He didn't talk to anybody of the Republic with it, he just did it. Yes perhaps it was for the greater good but was it really something he should have done without asking anybody for permission?"

!!!

Did you watch the film? PALPATINE- and the Senate- authorised the use of that army! Egad, at least try and put a little effort into this. That's really poor. The first thing they do with it is go to rescue Jedi and a Senator held captive by a planet where a conspiracy to destroy the Republic has just been put together!

Your final paragraph- a simple lie. It is not reflected at any point in the films.

I cannot believe the spurious nonsense being spouted around here about the Jedi, of late. Everyone is getting this 'I know better than the Jedi' attitude. Like hell you do.

As hilarious as that was, i feel i need to critisize it.

It is a known fact that the Jedi play the Self-proclaimed Super heroes. And yes, alot of us do know better than the jedi, because we aren't using our lightsabers to butt into everyones sodding business, are we? The Jedi are weak little sissy boys. They need a damned army to take care of their business? Since they are oh so knowledgable and wise, why don't they just spawn more Jedi? What, they don't deal out the effort to train freakin' Jedi anymore? Oh wait, i remember now.... YOU HAVE TO BE A F*CKING CHOSEN ONE TO BECOME A HALF-DECENT JEDI! Or wait.... MAYBE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF MIDICHLORIANS MIGHT HELP!!!!?!?? For christs sake, wake up. All the Jedi do is ramble on about how dangerous their Jedi are. Maybe if they weren't such a pompous ******* to Anakin and let him do some missions and grant him rank of master (which he damned well deserved) then maybe he would'nt have became Darth Vader and maybe he wouldn't have slaughtered thousands or blown a handful of planets up.


Mace: Sorry Anakin, we do not grant you the rank of master because you had your personal opinion.
Anakin: That's pretty shitty.
Mace: BUT you can hop aboard the council.
Anakin: What does that help? Didn't i just finish bitching about how much i hate politics and countless babble?
Mace: That's why we do not grant you a master.
Anakin: THEN WHY SHOVE ME ON THE COUNCIL, YOU DUMB SHIT?!!?
Mace: Oh my lord... You are growing too angry, my son! Normal human emotions aren't allowed in the Jedi. Did i mention that includes love?
Anakin:ACK! SCREW YOU!

Anakin: Oh hey Mace. Where you headed?
Mace: To place Palpatine under arrest!
Anakin: Can i come with you?
Mace: No, you stay here and sit on your ass and wait.
Anakin: Why can't i come?
Mace: This mission is far too dangerous for such a weak Jedi like you. Sorry, son.
Anakin:Wait until i chop your friggin wrists off, assface!
Mace: What was that?
Anakin: I coughed, stupid. I'll just sit here and get more mad.
Mace: No problem, just try not to become the most dangerous Sith Lord ever because of me, hey?
Anakin: What?
Mace: Just a cough, Any, just a cough.
Anakin: Whatever, ******.

Actually, the "Jedi" never proclaimed to be super heroes. The galaxy/republic placed the chore of being protectors onto them because 90% of people do not want to make their own decisions.

This is reflected every day in nearly every country in the world as well as in the fictional universe of GL's making. People like to be sheep, they like to be told what to do and how to do it as thinking for themselves takes too much effort. It also gives them the hypocritical ability to point and blame someone else for their own stupidity in not taking responsibility for their own actions.

The jedi never purported to be unbeatable or omniscient and actually tried to steer clear of trouble.

AND THEY ONLY WENT TO MEDIATE AT REQUEST of other people. Never did they make the choice to interfere themselves, they were invited at the various governments requests to assist in the mediation process.

this thread mentioned yin and yang and balance, then of all the jedi come far closer to spiritual balance (Which is the basis of Yin Yang core belief and of the wheel of life) than most people fictional or not.

Yet, it seems here that quite a few of you are angry at the Jedi, why?

Could it be that you saw them as superpeople and in doing so elevated them onto a pedestal and placed on them your own belief that they should be infallible because they have power/ability that you do not.

Then in effect when they fall, when they are toppled, you are angry because how could someone which you feel is better than you (You placed them on the pedestal and attributed godlike omniscience to them, no one did that for you) it contradicts your own belief in them and therefore you are angry because your view of the world/galaxy has just been turned upside down and you don't like it.

Originally posted by Sesse
Yea... And the decision to "save" jar jar was without any reason!


Qui Gon: "We need a navigator to get through the planet's core. This gungan might be of a help".

5 minutes passes...

Jarjar: "Where are wesa going?"
Qui Gon: "The force will guide us."

DUH!

A Jedi will never sit back and allow one to die. Besides without Jar Jar Naboo would have never been saved.

Originally posted by Soren the Mage
As hilarious as that was, i feel i need to critisize it.

It is a known fact that the Jedi play the Self-proclaimed Super heroes. And yes, alot of us do know better than the jedi, because we aren't using our lightsabers to butt into everyones sodding business, are we? The Jedi are weak little sissy boys. They need a damned army to take care of their business?
They need the army since their force alone would not be enough to defeat an almost inexhaustible (that means unending) droid army. Do you really expect each Jedi to be able to take on almost a thousand droids each? At the same time!?
Originally posted by Soren the Mage
Since they are oh so knowledgable and wise, why don't they just spawn more Jedi? What, they don't deal out the effort to train freakin' Jedi anymore? Oh wait, i remember now.... YOU HAVE TO BE A F*CKING CHOSEN ONE TO BECOME A HALF-DECENT JEDI! Or wait.... MAYBE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF MIDICHLORIANS MIGHT HELP!!!!?!??
The thing is, most people in the known galaxy don't have the midichorians within them to be able to manipulate the Force. Of the few that do, maybe less than half of them are ever discovered; if it weren't for the emergency landing on Tatooine, the Council would've never found Anakin.
Originally posted by Soren the Mage
For christs sake, wake up. All the Jedi do is ramble on about how dangerous their Jedi are. Maybe if they weren't such a pompous ******* to Anakin and let him do some missions and grant him rank of master (which he damned well deserved) then maybe he would'nt have became Darth Vader and maybe he wouldn't have slaughtered thousands or blown a handful of planets up.
He was put on the council only because Palpatine asked of it, but he wasn't given the rank of master because his emotions clouded his judgement. His love for Padme and anger at the enemies of the Republic would cause him to make irrational decisions that could put the Republic in even more danger.
Originally posted by Soren the Mage
Mace: Sorry Anakin, we do not grant you the rank of master because you had your personal opinion.
Anakin: That's pretty shitty.
Mace: BUT you can hop aboard the council.
Anakin: What does that help? Didn't i just finish bitching about how much i hate politics and countless babble?
Mace: That's why we do not grant you a master.
Anakin: THEN WHY SHOVE ME ON THE COUNCIL, YOU DUMB SHIT?!!?
Mace: Oh my lord... You are growing too angry, my son! Normal human emotions aren't allowed in the Jedi. Did i mention that includes love?
Anakin:ACK! SCREW YOU!
Ummm... Palpatine asked for Anakin's placement on the Jedi Council, so they didn't "shove" him onto it. As I said earlier, he wasn't given the rank of master due to the emotions that would cloud his judgement (as they did when he slaughtered younglings).
Originally posted by Soren the Mage
Anakin: Oh hey Mace. Where you headed?
Mace: To place Palpatine under arrest!
Anakin: Can i come with you?
Mace: No, you stay here and sit on your ass and wait.
Anakin: Why can't i come?
Mace: This mission is far too dangerous for such a weak Jedi like you. Sorry, son.
Anakin:Wait until i chop your friggin wrists off, assface!
Mace: What was that?
Anakin: I coughed, stupid. I'll just sit here and get more mad.
Mace: No problem, just try not to become the most dangerous Sith Lord ever because of me, hey?
Anakin: What?
Mace: Just a cough, Any, just a cough.
Anakin: Whatever, ******.
They didn't take Anakin along because of his friendship with Palpatine. This would endanger the mission, as it did later on. They never implied that he was weak, but that his emotions would prevent him from striking down Palpatine or would cause him to stop the arrest, as he later did.

Why are people bumping and responding to year old posts of members who have been baned?

It's alright as long as they have something to contribute.

I would say that a lot of Jedi do abuse their powers at times. Obi-Wan being an example.

Elan Sleazebaggano: You wanna buy some death sticks?
Obi-Wan: You don't want to sell me death sticks.
Elan Sleazebaggano: I don't want to sell you death sticks.
Obi-Wan: You want to go home and rethink your life.
Elan Sleazebaggano: I want to go home and rethink my life.

maybe he was doing it for the guy's own good but it still messed with his free will.

As for Qui-Gon. I actualy think he was wiser then people gave him credit for. Yes he was a little reckless. But when you think about it. What Jedi wasn't. Mace confronting Palatine could seem reckless. So could Obi-Wan following Jango Fett in Episode 2. I can see why he would follow him. But to actualy follow him to the surface. Instead he should have found a nice hiding spot in space and then sent his message to the Republic. Mace coming in with an army of Jedi to save 3 people was also reckless. Just think how many lives would have been saved if he had not gone. Yoda going after Palpatine alone was also reckless. Though I am sure he felt like he had to try to do something.

Qui-Gon was a different kind of jedi then the others. He was a student of the force. He believed the force had a will and was always guiding him. In our terms this is known as destiny. He let the force guide his actions. And perhaps he was correct in all this. What if he had not been killed? If he had train Anakin then perhaps Anakin would not have turned to the dark side. Who was the one person he trusted less then his mother but more then Palpatine? The answer is most likly Qui-Gon. I do not want this to turn into a debate. When I hear the word jedi I think these 4 people. OT Luke, OT Yoda, PT Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
I would say that a lot of Jedi do abuse their powers at times. Obi-Wan being an example.

Elan Sleazebaggano: You wanna buy some death sticks?
Obi-Wan: You don't want to sell me death sticks.
Elan Sleazebaggano: I don't want to sell you death sticks.
Obi-Wan: You want to go home and rethink your life.
Elan Sleazebaggano: I want to go home and rethink my life.

maybe he was doing it for the guy's own good but it still messed with his free will.

As for Qui-Gon. I actualy think he was wiser then people gave him credit for. Yes he was a little reckless. But when you think about it. What Jedi wasn't. Mace confronting Palatine could seem reckless. So could Obi-Wan following Jango Fett in Episode 2. I can see why he would follow him. But to actualy follow him to the surface. Instead he should have found a nice hiding spot in space and then sent his message to the Republic. Mace coming in with an army of Jedi to save 3 people was also reckless. Just think how many lives would have been saved if he had not gone. Yoda going after Palpatine alone was also reckless. Though I am sure he felt like he had to try to do something.

Qui-Gon was a different kind of jedi then the others. He was a student of the force. He believed the force had a will and was always guiding him. In our terms this is known as destiny. He let the force guide his actions. And perhaps he was correct in all this. What if he had not been killed? If he had train Anakin then perhaps Anakin would not have turned to the dark side. Who was the one person he trusted less then his mother but more then Palpatine? The answer is most likly Qui-Gon. I do not want this to turn into a debate. When I hear the word jedi I think these 4 people. OT Luke, OT Yoda, PT Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. Yes, Qui-Gon did seem to be the more wiser of the masters at the time, at Yoda's level and the like.

But as to Obi-Wan mindtricking Elan Sleazebaggano, a Jedi can interfere with a person's life it stops that person from living a life of deprevity and crime. And from what I've read on deathsticks, it saved his life as well. Jedi interfere with lives all the time, but you'll notice their intention, and often the outcome, are for an improvement on the current situation.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
I would say that a lot of Jedi do abuse their powers at times. Obi-Wan being an example.

Elan Sleazebaggano: You wanna buy some death sticks?
Obi-Wan: You don't want to sell me death sticks.
Elan Sleazebaggano: I don't want to sell you death sticks.
Obi-Wan: You want to go home and rethink your life.
Elan Sleazebaggano: I want to go home and rethink my life.

maybe he was doing it for the guy's own good but it still messed with his free will.



Free will?

Did it not occur to you that those things were illegal and that by rights Obi-Wan should have arrested the guy?

Don't you think what Obi-Wan did was better for all?

Who is to say what is better? I myself smoke cigerettes. When I am out in public and someone says i should not smoke I feel like slapping them. It is my right to smoke. Just like it was that guy's right to smoke and sell death sticks. For all you know those death sticks could have been some sort of cigar or something. The point is he messes with his free will. That is something that no one has the right to do. Even if it is for someone's own good. What gives the Jedi the right to mess with someone's mind just cause he thinks it is what is good for them? This is a classic example of how some of the jedi have come to think they are better then others.

Jesus Christ.. Just cut the crap.. I know what you are saying..
You are trying to say: what gives a jedi the right to police the universe.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
Who is to say what is better? I myself smoke cigerettes. When I am out in public and someone says i should not smoke I feel like slapping them. It is my right to smoke. Just like it was that guy's right to smoke and sell death sticks. For all you know those death sticks could have been some sort of cigar or something. The point is he messes with his free will. That is something that no one has the right to do. Even if it is for someone's own good. What gives the Jedi the right to mess with someone's mind just cause he thinks it is what is good for them? This is a classic example of how some of the jedi have come to think they are better then others. This sounds like an anti-American statement, except it's about Jedi.

The man was selling and likely doing an illegal narcotic which shortened someone's lifespan every time they used it. Obi-Wan tricking the man into giving up such a lifestyle can hardly be called wrong.

Originally posted by Tangible God
This sounds like an anti-American statement, except it's about Jedi.

The man was selling and likely doing an illegal narcotic which shortened someone's lifespan every time they used it. Obi-Wan tricking the man into giving up such a lifestyle can hardly be called wrong.

What do you mean Anti-American? I am american. I am sticking up for free will. The free will that all people are entitled too. Yes he was living a bad life style. But it was his life style to live. Free Will is about letting people make their own choices. While their choices might be the wrong ones, it is still there choice to make.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
What do you mean Anti-American? I am american. I am sticking up for free will. The free will that all people are entitled too. Yes he was living a bad life style. But it was his life style to live. Free Will is about letting people make their own choices. While their choices might be the wrong ones, it is still there choice to make. It's anti-American in that many countries and even many Americans feel that the United States thinks they're better than everyone and want to police the world. Your statement sounded like something those countries would say.

So if someone uses and deals heroine or cocaine, illegal substances by the way, it would be wrong for a police officer or friend or whoever, to convince them to stop, even if it meant tieing them to a chair to do it? Most people with an ounce of common-sense or logic see this as necessary, appropriate, and a kind thing to do, since it got them to stop doing things which will eventually kill them and/or get them tossed in jail.

Trying to convince someone to stop and forcing them to stop are two different things. When someone tries to convince someone to stop doing something. They are still leaving them the choice of doing it or not.

Tieing them to a chair however would be wrong. You would be forcing them to stop against there own will. That there is wrong. Also I think tieing someone down to a chair against there own will is against the law.

Obi-Wan never even gave him a choice, He just used the force to manipulate his mind. That is worse then tieing them down to chair. It is just one of the signs that the jedi think they know what is best for everyone.

A bigger example is Mace thinking it was his place to arrest the chancellor. The jedi were protecters yes. But last time I checked they were not Republic Police Officers.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
Trying to convince someone to stop and forcing them to stop are two different things. When someone tries to convince someone to stop doing something. They are still leaving them the choice of doing it or not.

Tieing them to a chair however would be wrong. You would be forcing them to stop against there own will. That there is wrong. Also I think tieing someone down to a chair against there own will is against the law.

Obi-Wan never even gave him a choice, He just used the force to manipulate his mind. That is worse then tieing them down to chair. It is just one of the signs that the jedi think they know what is best for everyone.

A bigger example is Mace thinking it was his place to arrest the chancellor. The jedi were protecters yes. But last time I checked they were not Republic Police Officers. Jesus Christ man, you go far enough and you'll be talking about Anarachism.

So let me get this straight: It was wrong of Mace Windu, one of the leading Jedi Masters of the Jedi Order--the sworn protectors and guardians of the Republic, to go and arrest the Chancellor, A.K.A. Darth Sidious, Dark Lord of the Sith, Mastermind of the devastating Clone Wars, Last of the Sith Order--the sworn mortal enemies of the Jedi and the Republic.

It was wrong for Mace to try and bring him to justice?

By your reasoning it's wrong to force someone to go to jail, just because it's against their "free will." In a world where your policies play out, I just have to kill someone and say to the arresting officers:

"Hey, your not the police of the world, you have no right to bring me in. It's against my will to go with you. It's against my will to put down the gun. It's against my will to not aim at you. And it is my God-given right to pull the trigger."

Try to understand that when it comes to breaking the law, which a coke dealer/addict (or in this case a deathstick dealer/addict) does, it is the duty and responsibilty of the police, guardians and protectors of the law and society to make them stop. And if it means making them stop against their will, so be it.

It was the fact that Mace took it apon himself to do so. Remember Palpatine was still the leader of the republic. By law he should have went by the proper channels and stuff to arrest him. Hell his intention was never to arrest him. His intention was to kill him. Last time I check assinated the leader of a government was against the law.

As for Obi-Wan. If he had the authority to arrest the man. He should have done so. I know he was currently busy and did not have time to. But using the force to mess with his mind would not be the answer. It is a lot different then arresting them. At least when you arrest someone they can try to put up a fight. That is their choice to try to do that. Just as it is their right to cooperate with them. So they still have free will. Using the force to make someone do something takes away that ability to choose.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
It was the fact that Mace took it apon himself to do so. Remember Palpatine was still the leader of the republic. By law he should have went by the proper channels and stuff to arrest him. Hell his intention was never to arrest him. His intention was to kill him. Last time I check assinated the leader of a government was against the law. Wrong. Mace's intention was to arrest Palpatine, but was pushed into the thought process that Sidious would fight for his life and had to die when he shot the lightning at Windu.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
As for Obi-Wan. If he had the authority to arrest the man. He should have done so. I know he was currently busy and did not have time to. But using the force to mess with his mind would not be the answer. It is a lot different then arresting them. At least when you arrest someone they can try to put up a fight. That is their choice to try to do that. Just as it is their right to cooperate with them. So they still have free will. Using the force to make someone do something takes away that ability to choose. Read what Tangible said, he's got it right.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
Who is to say what is better? I myself smoke cigerettes. When I am out in public and someone says i should not smoke I feel like slapping them. It is my right to smoke. Just like it was that guy's right to smoke and sell death sticks. For all you know those death sticks could have been some sort of cigar or something. The point is he messes with his free will. That is something that no one has the right to do. Even if it is for someone's own good. What gives the Jedi the right to mess with someone's mind just cause he thinks it is what is good for them? This is a classic example of how some of the jedi have come to think they are better then others.

But cigarettes aren't illegal! It is not your right to do or sell heroin. Obi-Wan could eother have locked that guy up, or he made sure he wouldn;t do it again. If you truly think the second is immoral then you are a pretty hopeless case.

Originally posted by spekdah
Why is it that the republic is supposed to be a democracy and the Jedi , for some reason, have obviously nominated themselves the enforcers of it?
I mean, you got this huge Galactic Republic right and its purpose is to ( I gather) serve the greater good of the galaxy and handle all dealings to do with trade, negotiations,economy etc... but the Jedi apparently know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil and therefore take it upon themselves to settle disputes and any other issues that may involve potential violence or aggression. I get the feeling they see themselves as self appointed heroes or leaders simply because a middicloriean said so.
They say the Jedi were the guardians of peace an justice for over a 1000 yrs and yet in all that time they couldnt even take a trip out to the outer rim systems to outlaw slavery on places such as tatooine? whatssamatta? no oil to drill out there?

THe Jedi say the reason there is no " army of the republic " is because it would be too much power for one person ( chancellor ) to have and therefore dangerous.
Whereas wouldnt it be more preferable to say that we need an army of the republic because its too dangerous having these 10,000 dudes walking around with abilities beyond most normal people ( think - mind control, levitation, manipulation, seeing the future etc...) waving dangerous - ass lightsabres making decisions for the galaxy based on what a microscopic organism says?

A classic example is Qui Gon Jin, now this guys takes the cake when it comes to Jedi flouting their powers. In one episode he manages to mind trick and manipulate his way round the galaxy with scoring free subs from Gungins to saving Jar Jar from punishment which inevitably ( in EP2) leads to emergency powers to the Chancellor to form an army of the Repubic, to convincing the queen to land on Tatooine for repairs which leads to the discovery of Anakin which really f**ks the republic up, not to mention trying to mind trick his way to some ship parts with worthless republic credits to flouting the Jedi code and taking on Anakin as a padawan when he already has an apprentice....etc etc
I mean this guy is supposed to be a Jedi for gods sake and he's done nothing but use his powers to influence what HE believes the midicloreans are saying to him.
Yoda admits that there are " reckless" Jedi, even Jedi masters and if they are 10,000 strong then there's bound to be heaps of "reckless" Jedi which would have to be a concern considering the powers they have.
If you look at it the Jedi really rule by fear.

Why do we do it? because the midicloreans said so! What if we dont do it? you'll a lightsabre up your ass!

That pretty much sums it up doesnt it?

F*ck You!
You Have No Clue Do You?

First off. Mace went with the intention to kill Palpatine. Who drew their lightsaber first? Mace or Palpatine? Who activated their lightsaber first? Mace or Palpatine?

As for the death stick dealer. Illegal or not. He uses the force to mess with his mind. He did not give the man a choice on if he wanted to rethink his life or not. Free will is the ability to make choices. Some people make good choices and some people make bad choices. But it is still there choice to make. If someone makes a bad choice and breaks the law. Then they get arrested. But it was still their choice to break the law.

The freedom to choose is one of the principles that America was founded on. The freedom to choose is my right as an American. It is a right I refuse to give up. It is a right I will stick up for until the day I die.

Did you ignore every word Mace said?
"In the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, you are under arrest, Chansellor".
"You are under arrest, my lord"

And the lightsaber is not the weapon of the jedi, it's their tool. Mace was informed that Palpatine was a sith lord, and the intentions of a lightsaber is not to kill. Him igniting it is for security purpous, not attack.....


Giving everyone the right to do whatever they wanted would **** up the world. People would go around killing eachother and before anyone could say stop, everyone would be dead. There are limits....
Have you ever watched shows like "Cops" or something, where they film cops in action? They force people into their cars then drive them down to the station, against the thiefs will. Did they do anything wrong? No, they did their job, as do the jedi. Obi-Wan made a weak-minded fool a favour by ENSURING he would get a better life. Why let him ruin himself and continue to do illegal business (which the jedi would stop him from doing, or any other police of that kind) when he can simply give him a better life....

Originally posted by kamikz
Did you ignore every word Mace said?
"In the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, you are under arrest, Chansellor".
"You are under arrest, my lord"

And the lightsaber is not the weapon of the jedi, it's their tool. Mace was informed that Palpatine was a sith lord, and the intentions of a lightsaber is not to kill. Him igniting it is for security purpous, not attack.....


Giving everyone the right to do whatever they wanted would **** up the world. People would go around killing eachother and before anyone could say stop, everyone would be dead. There are limits....
Have you ever watched shows like "Cops" or something, where they film cops in action? They force people into their cars then drive them down to the station, against the thiefs will. Did they do anything wrong? No, they did their job, as do the jedi. Obi-Wan made a weak-minded fool a favour by ENSURING he would get a better life. Why let him ruin himself and continue to do illegal business (which the jedi would stop him from doing, or any other police of that kind) when he can simply give him a better life....

In all of those situations the people who break the law still had a choice. It was their choice to break the law. It was their choice to resist arrest. To mess with someone's mind to make them do something, is taking away the choice they have to do it. You take away the choice, then you take away free will. Many times people are say that they are forced to do things against their own free will. But how often is that realy true. If someone puts a gun to your head. You still got two choices. You can resist and risk getting shot. Or you can do what they tell you to do.

Messing with someone's mind however and forcing them to do what you want them to do robs them of that free will. They get no choice in the matter. Nor do they realize that it is happening to them.

OMGWTFBBQ!!! OBI WAN DIDN'T ARREST THE FOOL BUT FORCED HIM TO THINK!!! THAT IS INSANE!! HOW COULD HE DO SUCH A THING!!!
Seriously, you must be joking, right?

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
First off. Mace went with the intention to kill Palpatine. Who drew their lightsaber first? Mace or Palpatine? Who activated their lightsaber first? Mace or Palpatine?

As for the death stick dealer. Illegal or not. He uses the force to mess with his mind. He did not give the man a choice on if he wanted to rethink his life or not. Free will is the ability to make choices. Some people make good choices and some people make bad choices. But it is still there choice to make. If someone makes a bad choice and breaks the law. Then they get arrested. But it was still their choice to break the law.

The freedom to choose is one of the principles that America was founded on. The freedom to choose is my right as an American. It is a right I refuse to give up. It is a right I will stick up for until the day I die.

What is it that is so weird and strange about you?

The alternative was to deprive him of his liberty. What free will is involved there, if he no longer has a life of his own to choose about? This 'Unamerican' nonsense is the height of idiocy. Just so much adolescent blah.

Your stancw is hopelessly immoral, which is presumably why you have issues with the Jedi, who ARE moral.

Burn!

Jam-Jul, you are either a) an idiot, b) an anarchist, or c) severely confused. Congrats.

It is not your right, as everyone else has said, to sell or use illegal drugs.

Am I right?

Kenobi, being a Jedi, does in fact know better than this drug dealer. Kenobi was busy, yes, you accepted that. Dealing with the assassin was more important than dealing with some petty drug dealer. But in the Republic, deathsticks are illegal. Just like heroin in the States. The government has taken away his 'right' to use drugs before he was even born. So, all Kenobi did was act as an extension of that law. Jedi are super policemen, after all. They don't just fight wars for the Republic.

Plus, if Kenobi had arrested the fellow for doing the drugs and peddling them, all that would have happened is that the guy would go to prison, then rehab, where he would be convinced to stop anyways. Kenobi skipped it all and just made him stop using/selling Deathsticks. I don't see any issue there. Elan was breaking the law, Kenobi was making him stop breaking the law.

In the case of Windu vs. Palpatine, you have to look at it this way. Can you recall any Sith Lords who would willingly come quietly without fuss after having started wars, ended millions of lives with said war, and was about to put into action his plans to take over the Galaxy? Windu knew that Palpatine would resist arrest, and was prepared to defend himself. If they had come in there to kill him, they would have drawn their lightsabers and jumped on him right away. Windu only decided to kill Palpatine after the Sith had killed three other Jedi and was trying to kill him.

Police officers work the same way. They can't fire guns until they have been fired upon. But they can have their guns ready, can't they?

I am willing to drop what I said about the Windu thing. Though I think he was hoping Palpatine would put a fight.

"Jam-Jul, you are either a) an idiot, b) an anarchist, or c) severely confused. Congrats."

A. I am not an idiot. I just believe no one had the right to mind rape someone. Which is pretty much what Obi-Wan did.

B. I am not an anarchist. I do not wish for chaos or anything. I just believe a person's right to choose. Not everyone makes the right choices. But that is just part of free will. You may not agree with that choice but it is still their choice to make.

C. Hmm confused? Not realy. I just think it if f*cked up to rob someone of their right to choose.

You believe that people should have the right to choose things that are detrimental to them and to society?

You believe that rapists should have the "choice" to rape another human?

Murderers should have the "choice" to murder another human?

Originally posted by Escape81
You believe that people should have the right to choose things that are detrimental to them and to society?

You believe that rapists should have the "choice" to rape another human?

Murderers should have the "choice" to murder another human?

While I myself believe those things are wrong to do. It is still there right to choose to do those things. Odds are those people will end up and jail and will get definitly get there just deserts while they are locked up. Not to mention they will also be judged when they die. When people do something to hurt someone, it will always come back to get them in the end.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
While I myself believe those things are wrong to do. It is still there right to choose to do those things. Odds are those people will end up and jail and will get definitly get there just deserts while they are locked up. Not to mention they will also be judged when they die. When people do something to hurt someone, it will always come back to get them in the end.

you mean karma?

Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
you mean karma? Yes, karma. Amorality strikes this thread like a bolt of lightning.

Selling the death sicks was illegal. And Obi-Wan had every right to arrest him and bring him to the courts. However he had absolutley no right to mess with the guys head, even if it was for the greater good. I understand that under the time restraints Kenobi couldnt arrest him, but that still doesnt give him the right to force the guy to stop selling them.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Selling the death sicks was illegal. And Obi-Wan had every right to arrest him and bring him to the courts. However he had absolutley no right to mess with the guys head, even if it was for the greater good. I understand that under the time restraints Kenobi couldnt arrest him, but that still doesnt give him the right to force the guy to stop selling them. He did have a right to do that, it may be morally questionable at best but Elan completely deserved it for selling death sticks. Like Rex said, Kenobi was being an extension of the law at the time he used the mind trick on him. Sure arresting him may have been correct, but Obi-Wan went through the fastest alternative available for him. And I quote, "Elan was breaking the law, Kenobi was making him stop breaking the law."

Originally posted by Lord Saboteur
He did have a right to do that, it may be morally questionable at best but Elan completely deserved it for selling death sticks. Like Rex said, Kenobi was being an extension of the law at the time he used the mind trick on him. Sure arresting him may have been correct, but Obi-Wan went through the fastest alternative available for him. And I quote, "Elan was breaking the law, Kenobi was making him stop breaking the law."

What Kenobi was doing is changing someones life the way he saw fit. Yes Elans lifestyle was bad but it was his choice to live that sort of life. Obi-Wan had no right to go there and change it the way he saw fit. The best he should have done was arrested him and taken him to the court.

And Obi-Wan knew absolutley nothing about this guy. For all we know he could have been an undercover cop, and Obi-Wan just screwed up some important undercover mission. Jedi arent god, and they shouldnt be able to change peoples lives the way they see fit. The law is there to punish wrong doers, the jedi are merely peace keepers.

Yeah! Dookus the only god!

Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
Yeah! Dookus the only god!

HAHAHAHA AMEN!!!!

Originally posted by Rampant ox
What Kenobi was doing is changing someones life the way he saw fit. Yes Elans lifestyle was bad but it was his choice to live that sort of life. Obi-Wan had no right to go there and change it the way he saw fit. The best he should have done was arrested him and taken him to the court.Amorality, wonderful. Just so you know, he told the man to go "go home and rethink his life". Which means that in the long run he did have a choice.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
And Obi-Wan knew absolutley nothing about this guy. For all we know he could have been an undercover cop, and Obi-Wan just screwed up some important undercover mission. Jedi arent god, and they shouldnt be able to change peoples lives the way they see fit. The law is there to punish wrong doers, the jedi are merely peace keepers. Undercover cop...? What the flaming Hell? I never said Jedi were gods, and they're taught to uphold peace, justice and security in the Republic, even if it does mean having to mind trick a thousand people out of dealing death sticks.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
First off. Mace went with the intention to kill Palpatine. Who drew their lightsaber first? Mace or Palpatine? Who activated their lightsaber first? Mace or Palpatine?

As for the death stick dealer. Illegal or not. He uses the force to mess with his mind. He did not give the man a choice on if he wanted to rethink his life or not. Free will is the ability to make choices. Some people make good choices and some people make bad choices. But it is still there choice to make. If someone makes a bad choice and breaks the law. Then they get arrested. But it was still their choice to break the law.

The freedom to choose is one of the principles that America was founded on. The freedom to choose is my right as an American. It is a right I refuse to give up. It is a right I will stick up for until the day I die. You dropped the Mace thing, 'bout time.


The coke and heroine dealers made a choice to break the law.

The police made a choice to join the force and protect society.

Society made the choice to create Human Rights and punish those who deprived others of them undeservingly.

Society also came up with the laws that the populace needed to follow, in order for those Human Rights to be protected. One of those many laws happens to be "Do not distribute, use, or sell illegal narcotics." When the man who broke that law is caught, he is accordingly punished by the very society who came up with the God-given Right of Freedom of Choice. He is receiving his just deserves.

In claiming that it is wrong to punish a man for committing a crime against society and the Rights of Humans, you are in fact disregarding the very moral fabric that you claim to uphold.

In reality your a hypocrite.

In Star Wars, Obi-Wan pulled a mercy card on him. He excused Elan of arrest, trial, fine, and sentence, and went straight to rehab. For a little mind-tampering, that's not a bad deal. Alot of smokers here on Earth would like that.

Originally posted by Lord Saboteur
Amorality, wonderful. Just so you know, he told the man to go "go home and rethink his life". Which means that in the long run he did have a choice.

But its not up to Obi-Wan to make the man rethink his life. Obi-Wan was entitled to areest the man and bring him to justice, nothing more. He certainly isnt meant to bring the law into his own hands and tamper with someones mind and free will to what he sees fit.



Again,a jedi has every right to arrest all the wrong doers and bring them to the courts for justice. However the jedi arent the courts, therefore they have no right to deal out punishments the way they see fit. No, what Kenobi did to Elan wasnt really a punishment, yet he had no right to mess with the guys head.

But did the guy learn a lesson? That is part of the point of the whole justice system. He also manipulated the guys mind. Now come on now. Would you like someone to manipulate your mind? Hell I can see the guy eventualy figuring out what happened and trying to hunt down the guy that messed with his mind.

Also as Ox said, he could have been an undercover cop and screwed the guys mission up. If you think about it. That was a realy nice club. I do not see a dealer realy trying to sell drugs in a place like that. Especialy not just saying it out of the blue to Obi-Wan. That sounds more like the behavior of an undercover cop.

Also the guy could have also been there to meet up with a realy hot chick. It is possible that Obi-Wan screwed him out of a chance at getting laid. Yes Obi-Wan did what he thought was right. But who is to say he knows what is best for someone. He might think he does, but that does not mean he is right. A jedi is supposed to think of the consequences of their actions. Obi-Wan did not do that. It looked like to me that the guy was just annoying Obi-Wan so he did it to get rid of him.

"Also the guy could have also been there to meet up with a realy hot chick. It is possible that Obi-Wan screwed him out of a chance at getting laid."

lol

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
But did the guy learn a lesson? That is part of the point of the whole justice system. He also manipulated the guys mind. Now come on now. Would you like someone to manipulate your mind? Hell I can see the guy eventualy figuring out what happened and trying to hunt down the guy that messed with his mind.

Also as Ox said, he could have been an undercover cop and screwed the guys mission up. If you think about it. That was a realy nice club. I do not see a dealer realy trying to sell drugs in a place like that. Especialy not just saying it out of the blue to Obi-Wan. That sounds more like the behavior of an undercover cop.

Also the guy could have also been there to meet up with a realy hot chick. It is possible that Obi-Wan screwed him out of a chance at getting laid. Yes Obi-Wan did what he thought was right. But who is to say he knows what is best for someone. He might think he does, but that does not mean he is right. A jedi is supposed to think of the consequences of their actions. Obi-Wan did not do that. It looked like to me that the guy was just annoying Obi-Wan so he did it to get rid of him. What excellent assumptions and theories.

People trust Obi-Wan to protect senators and hunt down assassins, but when it comes to discriminating between an undercover cop and a drug dealer, he's mind-boggled.

And a nice place? That joint was full of hookers and sleazes by the look of it. I've been offered drugs before out of the blue, why is that so hard for you to comprehend?

People also have the right to not get harassed by illegal dealers, now, go bash those naughty bastards for once instead of sticking up for their lawless ways.

Originally posted by Tangible God
What excellent assumptions and theories.

People trust Obi-Wan to protect senators and hunt down assassins, but when it comes to discriminating between an undercover cop and a drug dealer, he's mind-boggled.

And a nice place? That joint was full of hookers and sleazes by the look of it. I've been offered drugs before out of the blue, why is that so hard for you to comprehend?

People also have the right to not get harassed by illegal dealers, now, go bash those naughty bastards for once instead of sticking up for their lawless ways.

The point is Obi-Wan had no idea who this guy was. He didnt know his name, his background, how he got the deathsticks, if the deathsticks were real etc. Now if Obi-Wan had taken this guy to court he would have had the chance to have a fair trial and get off if he was innocent. However Kenobi took the law into his own hands and delivered the punishment himself. He didnt have the authority to do this, nor did he know if the guy was innocent or not. However Kenobi THOUGHT he knew what was best. The truth is he doesnt, certainly not from knowing the guy a grand total of 3 seconds...

Originally posted by Rampant ox
The point is Obi-Wan had no idea who this guy was. He didnt know his name, his background, how he got the deathsticks, if the deathsticks were real etc. Now if Obi-Wan had taken this guy to court he would have had the chance to have a fair trial and get off if he was innocent. However Kenobi took the law into his own hands and delivered the punishment himself. He didnt have the authority to do this, nor did he know if the guy was innocent or not. However Kenobi THOUGHT he knew what was best. The truth is he doesnt, certainly not from knowing the guy a grand total of 3 seconds... A Jedi has no authority to punish someone? Then what the f*ck are they good for other than bodyguards?

And the guy was let off without a mark on his record, Obi-Wan let him off EASY and also got him to go home and rethink his f*cked up life. Honestly, what would YOU prefer? A) Jail, trial, a fine, a criminal record, or B) a wave of the hand and the quitting of a deadly narctotic? If you chose A, your a moron.

I also suppose your gonna tell me an undercover cop would walk up to an obvious Jedi and offer him illegal drugs? When a fully uniformed cop walks in, a drug dealer doesn't go up to him and offer him some crack. And neither would an undercover cop.

Originally posted by Tangible God A Jedi has no authority to punish someone? Then what the f*ck are they good for other than bodyguards?

A jedi is a peace keeper. He or she arrests wrong doers and brings them to the courts, thus keeping the peace. However they dont have the right to mess with someones mind and free will. Jedi dont know what is best for someone so they cant go around using the force to alter someones entire life.



What Kenobi did for the guy was great. Im not arguing that. However how he did it is the problem. Kenobi doesnt know whats best for the guy, his motives, his lifestyle etc. How can he use the force to change this guys life when he has only known him for about 3 seconds. Jedi cant just take the law into their own hands and do whats 'best' for the public according to what they think.



Thats just an example. Kenobi didnt have a clue who this guy was and what he was doing there yet he still used the force to alter his entire life.

Those are some good points (on both ends).

Originally posted by Rampant ox
A jedi is a peace keeper. He or she arrests wrong doers and brings them to the courts, thus keeping the peace. However they dont have the right to mess with someones mind and free will. Jedi dont know what is best for someone so they cant go around using the force to alter someones entire life.



What Kenobi did for the guy was great. Im not arguing that. However how he did it is the problem. Kenobi doesnt know whats best for the guy, his motives, his lifestyle etc. How can he use the force to change this guys life when he has only known him for about 3 seconds. Jedi cant just take the law into their own hands and do whats 'best' for the public according to what they think.



Thats just an example. Kenobi didnt have a clue who this guy was and what he was doing there yet he still used the force to alter his entire life. So wait a minute. Are you saying that every time a Jedi uses the Mind Trick, he must do a total background check on the person first? Some guardian.

If Kenobi told the man to jump off the roof as well, that would be wrong. But as that's not the case... What he did to the man is no different than arresting them. An arrested man's rights and free will are also put on hiatus. They don't give him the choice to come down to the station, they make him come by force, whether he consents to it or not.

This is no different. He took away his right to decide himself. He had the right to stop all along, he had the choice to. Obviously he waved that choice. So Kenobi enforced it himself. The man was a drug dealer, and Kenobi made him stop. Plain and simple as a man who murders is arrested and made to stop murdering.

If you involve Human Rights in every single crime, the world would have gone to Hell long ago.

Originally posted by Tangible God
So wait a minute. Are you saying that every time a Jedi uses the Mind Trick, he must do a total background check on the person first? Some guardian.

Of course not. But in this case the mind trick altered the drug dealers entire life. A jedi is not entitled to do this, especially not when they have only known the person for about three seconds. However in ANH Kenobis mind trick on the stormtroopers was more acceptable. He didnt change their entire life with that mind trick, merely did what was necessary to get past. See the difference?



Arresting someone and forcing them to come to court is fine. It is part of the law. But while at court you are entitled to a fair trial and you are let off if you are innocent. The drug dealer never got this trial and he never had the chance to prove his innocence. All he got was his entire life changed by a guy he had known for about three seconds. All wrong doers are entitled to a fair trial, Kenobi did not offer this.



Theres a difference. Kenobi was not allowed to take the law into his own hands and change the drug dealers life. He is however perfectly within his rights to arrest the man and take him to court. Look at it this way. A police officer in our world cant just go up to a drug dealer and force him to stop. He has to arrest the person and take them to court. It is no different to Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Of course not. But in this case the mind trick altered the drug dealers entire life. A jedi is not entitled to do this, especially not when they have only known the person for about three seconds. However in ANH Kenobis mind trick on the stormtroopers was more acceptable. He didnt change their entire life with that mind trick, merely did what was necessary to get past. See the difference?



Arresting someone and forcing them to come to court is fine. It is part of the law. But while at court you are entitled to a fair trial and you are let off if you are innocent. The drug dealer never got this trial and he never had the chance to prove his innocence. All he got was his entire life changed by a guy he had known for about three seconds. All wrong doers are entitled to a fair trial, Kenobi did not offer this.



Theres a difference. Kenobi was not allowed to take the law into his own hands and change the drug dealers life. He is however perfectly within his rights to arrest the man and take him to court. Look at it this way. A police officer in our world cant just go up to a drug dealer and force him to stop. He has to arrest the person and take them to court. It is no different to Obi-Wan. Frankly, how do you know if a Jedi isn't allowed to do that?

So your saying that, because Obi-Wan made the guy quit dealing and doing an illegal deadly drug, he's in the wrong? Now I do believe that we agree that it's Okay to take away a criminals rights to keep away from endangering anyone else, and to stop him from breaking the law, right? Why do you feel Obi-Wan doing what he did, is going to make the man's life worse? Actually answer this.

Whenever a Jedi, or agent, or cop with the authority to do what these type of people do, get involved with other peoples lives, those people's lives are going to change. If they didn't, Jedi, agents and cops would be pointless.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Frankly, how do you know if a Jedi isn't allowed to do that?

So your saying that, because Obi-Wan made the guy quit dealing and doing an illegal deadly drug, he's in the wrong? Now I do believe that we agree that it's Okay to take away a criminals rights to keep away from endangering anyone else, and to stop him from breaking the law, right? Why do you feel Obi-Wan doing what he did, is going to make the man's life worse? Actually answer this.

Whenever a Jedi, or agent, or cop with the authority to do what these type of people do, get involved with other peoples lives, those people's lives are going to change. If they didn't, Jedi, agents and cops would be pointless.

The death stick dealer was in the wrong. Now Kenobi is a peace keeper, he has every right to reprimand this wrong doer. But the wrong doer has rights. he has the right to resist arrest, he has the right to go to court and he has the right to prove his innocence. Kenobi removed him of all these rights unlawfully. Its not up to Kenobi to choose what id best for this crook, what he should have done is arrested him and left it for the courts to decide. And Kenobi had absolutely no right into tricking the guy into doing something that he might not have wanted to do.

I'll ask again, why doesn't Kenobi have that right?

Because he is taking away all the rights of the dealer. And there must be some law forbidding you to alter someones mind the way you see fit otherwise the jedi could basically rule the galaxy the way they want. No worse than a sith...

Originally posted by Tangible God
I'll ask again, why doesn't Kenobi have that right?

First off there is nothing in the movies that prove they have any legal authority to arrest someone. The only exception would be episode 3 where many jedi were given a military rank. commenly general. Even with such a rank like that, they would still have to follow the same rules as normal officers. Prior to the clone wars, the jedi existed as a seperate orginization. While the members were republic citizens, they governed themselves. That is why you never saw a Jedi Senater. The Senate and chanceller could ask the jedi order to do something, but they could not order it. Palpatine requested that Obi-Wan and Anakin protect Padme. So anything that involved protecting her, they had the legal right to do. The death stick dealer was in no way included in that. Obi-Wan simply did what he thought was right for the person and did not give one thought about the consequences of it. Sure he might have saw the good. But he might not have saw bad consequences as well. It is not quite so easy for a drug dealer to suddenly stop dealing drugs. Espcialy if they are in real deep into some sh*t.

Once the Clone Wars begun, we see the Jedi Offering to help, so Palpatine gives them all Military Ranks. Thus making them a part of the Republic. This helps to ensure control of the jedi. Now at this time they can legaly arrest people. But not deal out punishment. Unless they are of course ordered to do so.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
First off there is nothing in the movies that prove they have any legal authority to arrest someone. You're contradicting your argument.

Then what do you suggest he should have done? Ignored the criminal? Very un-Jedi like that would be.

There's also no evidence given to claim they don't have the powers to arrest or punish someone. So let's not jump to conclusions.

However, as guardians of the Republic, there's more evidence to suggest that they DO indeed have those powers.

Originally posted by Soren the Mage
As hilarious as that was, i feel i need to critisize it.

It is a known fact that the Jedi play the Self-proclaimed Super heroes. And yes, alot of us do know better than the jedi, because we aren't using our lightsabers to butt into everyones sodding business, are we? The Jedi are weak little sissy boys. They need a damned army to take care of their business? Since they are oh so knowledgable and wise, why don't they just spawn more Jedi? What, they don't deal out the effort to train freakin' Jedi anymore? Oh wait, i remember now.... YOU HAVE TO BE A F*CKING CHOSEN ONE TO BECOME A HALF-DECENT JEDI! Or wait.... MAYBE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF MIDICHLORIANS MIGHT HELP!!!!?!?? For christs sake, wake up. All the Jedi do is ramble on about how dangerous their Jedi are. Maybe if they weren't such a pompous ******* to Anakin and let him do some missions and grant him rank of master (which he damned well deserved) then maybe he would'nt have became Darth Vader and maybe he wouldn't have slaughtered thousands or blown a handful of planets up.


Mace: Sorry Anakin, we do not grant you the rank of master because you had your personal opinion.
Anakin: That's pretty shitty.
Mace: BUT you can hop aboard the council.
Anakin: What does that help? Didn't i just finish bitching about how much i hate politics and countless babble?
Mace: That's why we do not grant you a master.
Anakin: THEN WHY SHOVE ME ON THE COUNCIL, YOU DUMB SHIT?!!?
Mace: Oh my lord... You are growing too angry, my son! Normal human emotions aren't allowed in the Jedi. Did i mention that includes love?
Anakin:ACK! SCREW YOU!

Anakin: Oh hey Mace. Where you headed?
Mace: To place Palpatine under arrest!
Anakin: Can i come with you?
Mace: No, you stay here and sit on your ass and wait.
Anakin: Why can't i come?
Mace: This mission is far too dangerous for such a weak Jedi like you. Sorry, son.
Anakin:Wait until i chop your friggin wrists off, assface!
Mace: What was that?
Anakin: I coughed, stupid. I'll just sit here and get more mad.
Mace: No problem, just try not to become the most dangerous Sith Lord ever because of me, hey?
Anakin: What?
Mace: Just a cough, Any, just a cough.
Anakin: Whatever, ******.
EDIT

man this thread is old

Just incase that^ got in the way, I've replied.

Originally posted by Tangible God
You're contradicting your argument.

Then what do you suggest he should have done? Ignored the criminal? Very un-Jedi like that would be.

There's also no evidence given to claim they don't have the powers to arrest or punish someone. So let's not jump to conclusions.

However, as guardians of the Republic, there's more evidence to suggest that they DO indeed have those powers.

Even if they have the power to act like a police officer. It would not give them the right alter someone's mind or even give out punishment in general. The most they could do is read them their rights, arrest them.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
Even if they have the power to act like a police officer. It would not give them the right alter someone's mind or even give out punishment in general. The most they could do is read them their rights, arrest them. Really, show me the proof. As Guardians of the Republic, it would make sense for them to use these specific powers, the Mind Trick obviously very useful in settling affairs or bringing people to justice without too much of a hassle. Show me the direct, canon statement that says otherwise.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Really, show me the proof. As Guardians of the Republic, it would make sense for them to use these specific powers, the Mind Trick obviously very useful in settling affairs or bringing people to justice without too much of a hassle. Show me the direct, canon statement that says otherwise.

Why's don't you show me proof that they are allowed to do that? I can understand being allowed to do so if the mission involves doing that. But as is the case of the death stick dealer. He was in no way a part of the mission to protect Padme.

i'll settle it,
rex is right allround and plus there's more
Escape81 u r right
Rampant, Shut the F*ck up you are a sith and exactly like Jam-Jul, i have respected both of you guys on other occasions but now i realize u guys are the reason i have had to help ppl out of suicide and failed sometimes, u r the reason they end up ending their lives because they were raped by parents and/or friends and all the ppl like you who knew about it wouldn't step in and save their f*cking life. You Sicken Me!

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
A. I am not an idiot. I just believe no one had the right to mind rape someone. Which is pretty much what Obi-Wan did.
If you had a choice to be mind raped or butt raped in prison multiple times which would you choose. plus obi was saving him from the perils and embarasement of prison and court because he felt Elan innocence and forgave him for making a mistake. You dont know maybe Elan made a gambling debt for himself and the major gang he has the problem with has taken his sister and he has to sell deathsticks to makle the money pay them. Obi-Wan simply gave him the choice to choose deathstick or bartending, etc.


So if someone was mentaly ill and made a choice to kill someone and there was no way to convince the person otherwise you wouldn't step in?
it is you sort of ppl who see a person on the street getting raped or bashed up and you dont step in or even call the authorities to report because "its none of ur business"!



so ur a christian but u refuse to step in for the greater good think about the situation b4 u step in and say its wrong to change a persons mind we do it every day to each other, ur doing it right now but your doing it on a low scale and you do that because you do not have the power(which if you did have you would problablyuse against human kind) or knowledge or wisdom like the jedi do to understand the decision Obi-Wan made.


he didn't he said "... go home and rethink ur life!" he still gave him the choice to rethink his life, after the thinking he could of gone "no i still want to sell deathsticks!".

Lison and Rampant "go home and rethink ur lives..."

Originally posted by TheBalance
i'll settle it,
rex is right allround and plus there's more
Escape81 u r right
Rampant, Shut the F*ck up you are a sith and exactly like Jam-Jul, i have respected both of you guys on other occasions but now i realize u guys are the reason i have had to help ppl out of suicide and failed sometimes, u r the reason they end up ending their lives because they were raped by parents and/or friends and all the ppl like you who knew about it wouldn't step in and save their f*cking life. You Sicken Me!

Wtf. We really didnt want to know your life story. And there was no need to turn this argument nasty either. We were all having a perfectly friendly debate and then you come in bashing me and Jam-Jul.



Obi-Wan doesnt have the authority to alter someones mind the way he sees fit. He could have arrested Elan and taken him to court instead. There he would have stood a fair trial and be let off IF he was innocent. However his right to a fair trial went out the door when Kenobi mind tricked him. And who cares if he got 'butt raped' in prison. If he was a criminal then that is probaby what he deserves.



We dont know Elans backstory so you cant make assumptions like that. And Kenobi didnt know who Elan was either yet he still thought it was up to him to mind trick Elan and change his life, when there is every chance Elan is innocent anyway.



You know absolutely nothing about us so dont come in here assuming things like that. Its not cool and it isnt helping your argument at all. So either argue properly and stop slandering us or leave the debate.



Thats just a complete load of bullsh*t. You can hardly compare a fictional jedi mind trick to sitting here debating. And why do you keep assuming we are against man kind? Once again you know nothing about us and thus have no right to make comments like that.



But its not up to Obi-Wan to force the guy to go home and rethink his life. Obi-Wan would have been perfectly within his rights to say 'your under arrest' but instead he thought he would take the law into his own hands and mess with this guys mind. In doing this he took away Elans rights which I highly doubt he has the authority to do.

*coughs awkwardly*....well then.

Anyways... No Obi-Wan did not know Elan's background. But... trusting in the will of the Force no doubt, and with his own intuitions, Kenobi knew he would never meet this man again, hence why a background check is irrelevant. Since he only as that moment right there to do something to/for the guy, he had to act, or otherwise very likely leave him in a life of deprevity and drugs. Weighing the potential pros against the cons, as well as considering the "what ifs" of the scenario, resulted in the wiser decision to Mind Trick the man into possibly giving up his degraded lifestyle and hopefully choose a more fulfilling one.

It was either that or just let the man be in a world that was obviously depicted as a generally poor one. Rights were not of any consequence then, as it was hardly the situation to take them into such deep and overly-drawn out consideration as you would have us believe.

Hmmmmm. I understand where you are coming from Tangible but I still have to disagree. What Obi-Wan did was right, but how he did it is the problem. Kenobi should have arrested Elan and presented him to a court instead of changing Elans fate with the force the way he saw fit. The end result would still have ended up the same only Elan would have had all his rights and the ability to plee innocent or guilty in front of the courts. What Kenobi did was an act of arrogance imo, he thought he knew what was best for a lesser being and changed his fate, which frankly he had no right to do.

However im not going to change my stance on this and I doubt you are either so lets just agree to disagree. That way everyone gets to go home happy tonight.

I knew you were gonna say that eventually. Before that happens though, I'll present one last argument for the night.

Looking at this through Earth's perspective, what Elan did was against the law. Taking away Elan's rights is also against the law. To many people, a murderer or convicted criminal, an obvious criminal I should say, should skip the trial and move right on to sentencing. And frankly, in the circumstance of a blatant criminal, that makes sense.

If we agree that Obi-Wan has the wits to know he's not an undercover cop, then that makes Elan a criminal, and yes, a blatant one. If we were to skip right to the sentencing, a sentence Elan would receive no matter what happens, we'll eventually find him cleaned up and no longer dealing. I doubt this is something Elan wants to happen. If we're in agreement about that, at least I sincerely hope you are, then technically, his rights are being removed no matter what.

This can be boiled down to Obi-Wan carrying out Elan's sentence immediately, as it was plain to see what he was and what he's guilty of, no court is needed to decide that. Not to mention that Jedi likely have that authority anyways in Star Wars, as can be seen from their millenia-old peacekeeping ideals. Certainly, upholding the law is part of those ideals, and if a Jedi must use unorthodox means to uphold said laws, he or she must be allowed to do it if no other option is available, as is Elan's case. Obi-Wan did not have the time to arrest Elan, and the man would have gotten away if he hadnt acted.

Obi-Wan's move may have limited Elan's rights, but it was a matter of incovenient timing and lack of other options that forced Obi-Wan to do what he did, to give Elan the same sentence he would have received, trial or not.

If Obi-Wan had treated him to an unfair sentencing, then I'd be on your side, but as he didn't...

Nice post clappingclapping

Im not going to argue with it because you already know my point of view and I think I have said everything that needs to be said. I also think we are both right, it just depends on which way you look at it.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
I am willing to drop what I said about the Windu thing. Though I think he was hoping Palpatine would put a fight.

"Jam-Jul, you are either a) an idiot, b) an anarchist, or c) severely confused. Congrats."

A. I am not an idiot. I just believe no one had the right to mind rape someone. Which is pretty much what Obi-Wan did.

B. I am not an anarchist. I do not wish for chaos or anything. I just believe a person's right to choose. Not everyone makes the right choices. But that is just part of free will. You may not agree with that choice but it is still their choice to make.

C. Hmm confused? Not realy. I just think it if f*cked up to rob someone of their right to choose. Yes, you are very confused if you think that making the guy think his life over was bad. I'd give anything to make sure policemen let me think instead of locking me up.
But you apparantly are such an anarchist that not even making someone think is reasonable. Therefore you are actually all the things Rex accused you of.Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
But did the guy learn a lesson? That is part of the point of the whole justice system. He also manipulated the guys mind. Now come on now. Would you like someone to manipulate your mind? Hell I can see the guy eventualy figuring out what happened and trying to hunt down the guy that messed with his mind.

Also as Ox said, he could have been an undercover cop and screwed the guys mission up. If you think about it. That was a realy nice club. I do not see a dealer realy trying to sell drugs in a place like that. Especialy not just saying it out of the blue to Obi-Wan. That sounds more like the behavior of an undercover cop.

Also the guy could have also been there to meet up with a realy hot chick. It is possible that Obi-Wan screwed him out of a chance at getting laid. Yes Obi-Wan did what he thought was right. But who is to say he knows what is best for someone. He might think he does, but that does not mean he is right. A jedi is supposed to think of the consequences of their actions. Obi-Wan did not do that. It looked like to me that the guy was just annoying Obi-Wan so he did it to get rid of him. Yeah, Obi Wan probably screwed up his secret undercover mission or his chances of entering a woman's vagina. Jesus christ.. Get lost, kid.

You and Rampant Ox are both putting way too much thought in messing with someones mind. He made sure the guy was going to go home this night and think about the current way of living and whether it is what he really wants or not.
If you call that raping someones mind then you are indeed very insane.

overlord very right
and tangible ur close but are missing some things and it is very gracious of you rampant to calm the situation, i'm sorry that i got worked up but i have seen my friends die cause of ur sort of view on this situation.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Wtf. We really didnt want to know your life story. And there was no need to turn this argument nasty either. We were all having a perfectly friendly debate and then you come in bashing me and Jam-Jul.

I definetly did not tell you my life story. trust me!
and i'm sorry as it states above!



I already proved the wrong is this statement. and how did kenobi mind tricking make all it rights go out the door.



Exactly what pissed me off in the first place. every human being deserves a better life whether a serial killer or a shop lifter no deserves to be physically and sexually abused, just wait til you experiance trouble in your life and see how you like it with no one to help you, because everybody thinks u deserve it! That reaction is why America still have the death penalty with destroys the very thing ur fighting for.



The Jedi can read emotions, thoughts, feelings. A Jedi Master such as Obi Wan would certainly be able to read elans mind and decide, as tangible said, the correct decision weighing up every thing tangible said as well as the lives he saved by stopping elan from selling "death" sticks that night. you have no idea about how a jedi's mind worked so you can never say he took the absolute wrong course of action. Obi Wan may have seen into elans future and elan may have gotten into a fight with some ppl he was trying to sell the deathsticks too and by making elan leave that night early obi may have saved more than just elans life.



A simple yes or no to the hypothesised situation would be adequet.



Its all mind influence...!



Actually, he does, it is up to Obi wan, the jedi to make this world a better safer place for all of us even the ones who are making the world bad in the first place.

Ok here in the America, even criminals have rights.

Here is a link to a page with the Miranda Rights listed on it.
http://publicdefender.cjis20.org/miranda.htm

Also I would like to point out that a Police Officer is not allowed to adminster punishment. That is up to the courts. Maybe the law is different in the parts of the world you are from. But that is the way it works here. Yes sometimes guilty people go free, and innocent people get locked up. But that is the way it is. No criminal system is perfect.

Here in America, what Obi-Wan did was not only moraly wrong, it is also illegal. The only time a criminal looses most of their rights here, is when they are actualy convicted of a crime. And even then they still have a couple.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
Ok here in the America, even criminals have rights.
They have even more in autralia.



thanx, i checked it out and its for 1 state what about the other 49. at least we have the same rights and rules all around the country.


Same Here, A Police officer can try and convince the offender to stop the illegal work which is what Obi-Wan was doing but in a higher standard and and still gave him the choice to say yes or no to the illegal job, i say again all he said was "go home and rethink your life."
He could of said i still want to sell deathsticks.



Australia has one of the Lowest Crime rates in the world, also considering how bloody huge our country is. We dont even make on the top 60. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita


A Cop trying to convince a young teenager to get off the drugs b4 another cop catchs him is not moraly wrong and not illegal. and when a criminal doesn't have the rights to lose when he goes to court because all rights are wiped and rewritten as they go into the court and rewritten as they leave they dont loose any rights the forfeit them by performing a criminal act and having to come to court.

Originally posted by TheBalance

Same Here, A Police officer can try and convince the offender to stop the illegal work which is what Obi-Wan was doing but in a higher standard and and still gave him the choice to say yes or no to the illegal job, i say again all he said was "go home and rethink your life."
He could of said i still want to sell deathsticks.


A Cop trying to convince a young teenager to get off the drugs b4 another cop catchs him is not moraly wrong and not illegal. and when a criminal doesn't have the rights to lose when he goes to court because all rights are wiped and rewritten as they go into the court and rewritten as they leave they dont loose any rights the forfeit them by performing a criminal act and having to come to court.

Your missing a major point though. Elan didnt have a choice in the matter. If Obi-Wan had simply tried to convince him to stop selling deathsticks that would have been fine. However he used a mind trick to FORCE Elan to stop selling them. He made Elan do something against his will, something Kenobi had no right to do. And you still have rights when you go to court. Innocent until proven guilty. However Kenobi simply assumed that Elan was guilty and made a choice that the courts should have made. That is why all of Elans rights went out the window.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Your missing a major point though. Elan didnt have a choice in the matter. If Obi-Wan had simply tried to convince him to stop selling deathsticks that would have been fine. However he used a mind trick to FORCE Elan to stop selling them. He made Elan do something against his will, something Kenobi had no right to do. And you still have rights when you go to court. Innocent until proven guilty. However Kenobi simply assumed that Elan was guilty and made a choice that the courts should have made. That is why all of Elans rights went out the window. Elan had had the right to choose to stop seling deathsticks well before Obi-Wan came along, just like criminals here. Once he dismissed that right, it was up to Obi-Wan to stop him. If a Jedi can lead battles and defend the galaxy, this isn't a major turn in their mandate.

And to Jam-Jul, I just want to clarify the misconception that Obi-Wan mind tricked Elan on Coruscant. In the Core of the galaxy. That galaxy. Not ours. Star Wars man. Not America.

Very right Tangible,

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Your missing a major point though. Elan didnt have a choice in the matter. If Obi-Wan had simply tried to convince him to stop selling deathsticks that would have been fine.
but rampant,
he did have a choice, even if he did go home and rethink his life i'll say again that he still had a choice when he got home to say "yes i still want to sell deathsticks"


Which problably saved dozens of lives!


He did actually have the right to...
The Jedi have been round for billions of years the republic respect and learned from the Jedi and you should too i'll say again you would no clue what went through the jedi's mind b4 they pass judgement.


yes but are refused the right to contradict, you must only speak when asked to and can only present your case in formal form according to the court. Victorian Court Rules


1. Kenobi looked deep into the issue and decided the best action, he didn't just assume, the make a clear answer or not "Try not, Do or do not. Not Try!" - Yoda
and why would that make elans rights go out the window
in the end it is all round better for him so u cant be angry that kenobi did nothing but good for elan

If you think about it, Kenobi isn't altering the person as HE sees fit. It's as the REPUBLIC sees fit. The Republic (and other RL governments) are going to do that with rehab anyways.

I don't see how Kenobi is violating rights if he's the sherriff in town, charged with upholding those laws.

You're arguing it as if Kenobi killed him and took away his rights that way...

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
Ok here in the America, even criminals have rights.

Here is a link to a page with the Miranda Rights listed on it.
http://publicdefender.cjis20.org/miranda.htm

Also I would like to point out that a Police Officer is not allowed to adminster punishment. That is up to the courts. Maybe the law is different in the parts of the world you are from. But that is the way it works here. Yes sometimes guilty people go free, and innocent people get locked up. But that is the way it is. No criminal system is perfect.

Here in America, what Obi-Wan did was not only moraly wrong, it is also illegal. The only time a criminal looses most of their rights here, is when they are actualy convicted of a crime. And even then they still have a couple. He forced him to walk off and go think somewhere, WHAT HORRIBLE PUNISHMENT INDEED!!! Who says the jedi mind trick didn't work out after a short while and the criminal regained his senses and continued his business.
Maybe he did come home and rethought his life and came to the conclusion that the current way of living is the only way he is able to live.

I think you there is something horribly wrong with you, what you are trying to prove makes no sense at all.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Your missing a major point though. Elan didnt have a choice in the matter. If Obi-Wan had simply tried to convince him to stop selling deathsticks that would have been fine. However he used a mind trick to FORCE Elan to stop selling them. He made Elan do something against his will, something Kenobi had no right to do. And you still have rights when you go to court. Innocent until proven guilty. However Kenobi simply assumed that Elan was guilty and made a choice that the courts should have made. That is why all of Elans rights went out the window. Obi Wan caught him in the act, he wasn't innocent. Does a police officer have to wait until a court decides that he is guilty before the officer can do something about a man who is shooting a gun in public? No.
What are you two crying about with your making him do something against his will? Obi Wan altered his will in a very innocent way. The only thing Elan lost was his time, and maybe he decided on his own to stop selling death sticks, maybe not.
Obi Wan made him think, that is all. So stop whining and start using the brain. But wait, you are mad that Obi Wan made sure he didn't sell his death sticks right! Yeah, if Obi Wan wouldn't have used a mind trick then Elan would've just sold the death sticks to Obi Wan! Obi Wan is such an inconsiderate *******!

I really find it funny that this argument is happening.

Kenobi mind tricked Elan into THINKING. NOT STOPPING. JUST THINKING. Hmmm and this is problematical

Let's have a closer look then

Did anyone complain when:
1 Qui Gon did Boss Nass
2 Luke did Bib Fortuna
3 Kenobi did the stormtrooper

Now Qui Gon did this for information if not help in getting to the Nabooan People, but still it took away Boss Nass's right to choose

Luke did Bib Fortuna to get an audience with Jabba, even though Bib worked for Jabba and had been told not to admit. So Luke made this person stop in the discharge of his duties if not go against his boss.

Kenobi did the stormtrooper - Now this one deliberately made an officer of the Official Galactic Government (Even if we are aware that that Govt came around by murder, deciet and misconception, it was still the official govt) competely disregard his chosen duty. THis from any of our public servants would be an automatic "Fired" on the spot if not criminal charges.

Elan got to rethink, just think, yet each of these other people got right royally F***ed by the Jedi. Has there been any complaints or usage of these times in your argument NO And now I shall tell you why

You choose to disregard all these other times, and to only focus one one point for one reason.

like attracts like. A very simple little fact. Us humans love to complicate things but the truth is always simple which makes it hard to believe. WE LOVE COMPLICATION. So lets be simple and true

You won't argue the other points because every one of these was the underdog f***ing with authority, and you love that don't you, You obviously have a problem with authority and with society in general and your comments show someone with definate anti social tendancies, so to you, these other times of jedi mind tricks would not even register as anything but Way to Go DUDE F the system.

But when it comes to Elan - WHo obviously reminds you of yourself or one of your friends, you jump to the defensive. Why is that. People only become agitated and defensive when they know they are guilty of something but want to point the finger somewhere else.

Next time you decide to argue a misuse of power on any level, then please review all instances of that power and then form a judgement, as clearly by your own argument you defended 3 uses and argued 1 by simply only arguing on that one fact. Typical behaviour for someone too closely linked to the argument (Let me guess, you don't like the drugs but the drugs LOVE you) rather than being objective.

There is no argument here, there is no discussion, there is only posturing and ranting and basically a tantrum throwing over this. An argument would have been clear, concise and for the following reasons, not just howling at the top or your lungs after being sent to your room.

And for F***s sake, if you want to seriously discuss this, then formulate your argument against every instance of use of this power, then present it and we will debate the issue, Not this continued BullS**t that you are doing.

My apologies to all moderators -

Every instance of swearing or language in preceeding submissions was self censored before being submitted.

This was because I felt that the language used would demonstrate the level of frustration with seeing such an ongoing travesty that had the hide to insinuate it was an actual debate over a legitimate misuse of power rather than the obvious, unformulated ranting of people anytime that "One of their own" gets a clip up the back of the ear.

I actually suspect that I will be targeted for reprisal with more of thier dribbled crap over this, however, as stated, you get nothing for nothing,

COME BACK WITH OBJECTIONS AND POINTS AGAINST ALL and we will debate the issue, otherwise all it will sound like is that mosquitos are big this year. WHere did it put the RAID???

To tangible, Overlord, Capt Rex and Balance, your patience is noted and applauded but why debate the small issue, debate the point of power and it's uses, if they can only focus on just the one little point then they can't be objective only defensive and not worth the arguement. Let me guess they would all plead "Not Guilty" even with photographic evidence and being caught red handed is my guess

And the Jedi were elected GOD, made to be GOD, and forced to be GOD by every single person who pedestalled them and held them in awe - NAMELY EVERY PERSON IN THE REPUBLIC THAT WAS NOT A JEDI

THe only complainents - Smugglers, theives, criminals and the Sith. Hmmm I WONDER WHY THAT IS

(Wondering if this will have them foaming at the mouth) LOL

Cheers

Nah, Rampant and Jam Jul are just very pointless persons getting their fifteen seconds of fame by being ignorent and rebellious.

In RL, maybe they would need ballgags.

LOL

Thank you, Arch. And I was just going to say something about the whole 'other Mind Tricks.'

Other uses of Mind Tricks, the not successful ones and ones that were cut from the films probably not as relevant, but still taking away 'choice' or 'human rights' or whatever the hell Jam is calling them.

Qui-Gon tried to trick Watto into accepting credits.

Luke tried to trick Jabba into surrendering Han Solo.

In Ep3's script, Kenobi was originally supposed to trick a Utapaun into giving him his mount that he used for his stay on Utapau. That would be deliberate evading use of cash...

You know what's funny, though?

We never see a Dark Lord use a Mind Trick that I can recall, other than Palpatine on General Grievous in Labyrinth of Evil, to prevent the General from killing him (or something). But I think the Sith would be using the Mind Trick for more ruthless things, don't you?

Well everyone is right here, it just depends on how you look at it. You are all arguing from the point of Obi-Wan. He did what was best for Elan, and possibly helped him give up a dangerous habit. This in turn could prevent danger on the wider community. So you are right in all aspects of your argument.

However I am looking at it from the point of Elan. He got his mind messed with by Obi-Wan, got forced to do something that he had no intention of doing, and because of this got his rights removed. Also Obi-Wan only knew the guy for literally about 3 seconds, hardly enough time to make a rational decision, even if he does have use of the force. So everyone is right, from a certain point of view...

I agree with you Ox. I have looked at it from all points of view. I can understand why Obi-Wan did it. On the other hand if I look on Elan's point of view, he forced him to go do something. To go home and rethink his life was a choice he needed to make on his own.

I also like to look at it from a spectater's view. Obi-Wan was sitting down at the bar, waiting for Anakin to catch the bounty hunter. As soon as he sit's down Elan ask him if he wants to buy death sticks. Almost immediatly Obi-Wan uses the mind trick on him. If anything, Obi-Wan looked more annoyed then anything. It looked like he did it so the guy would stop annoying him.

Also I would like to point out the Miranda Rights is valid in the Valid in the entire USA. The orginal case that decided that just happened to take place Arizona.

Look at it from Charles Manson's point of view. He got forced into a squad car, made to stand trial, and forced to go to prison. The poor guy got all his rights taken away.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Well everyone is right here, it just depends on how you look at it. You are all arguing from the point of Obi-Wan. He did what was best for Elan, and possibly helped him give up a dangerous habit. This in turn could prevent danger on the wider community. So you are right in all aspects of your argument.

However I am looking at it from the point of Elan. He got his mind messed with by Obi-Wan, got forced to do something that he had no intention of doing, and because of this got his rights removed. Also Obi-Wan only knew the guy for literally about 3 seconds, hardly enough time to make a rational decision, even if he does have use of the force. So everyone is right, from a certain point of view... He was made to go home, who gives a shit. Who knows if he actually got home? If he did, he would've taken some time to think. Then it would indeed be his own choice whether he stopped selling those sticks or not.
Maybe he immediately went back into selling them that night. The only thing he lost was time. Defending him with all your might is pretty odd.
You and Jam Jul are very weird people. You're just trying to be annoying, aren't you?

You have to look at the argument from both sides overlord. You clearly see it from the point of Obi-Wan. But I do not. However I think everyone has said all there is to say.

Hahahahaha. That last comment is the most hypocritical thing I have read in a long time. Well done.

As Capt Rex and I both stated earlier

Why are your squabbling over 1 instance - where is your comments/attacks on the other uses of the power as previously put forth

Originally posted by Rampant ox
You have to look at the argument from both sides overlord. You clearly see it from the point of Obi-Wan. But I do not. However I think everyone has said all there is to say.

Hahahahaha. That last comment is the most hypocritical thing I have read in a long time. Well done. Uhmm.. No.
You're trying to act like a retard. It's pretty easy to say that I'm only looking at it from Obi Wan's perspective but it's Elan who gets lucky. That's what I'm trying to say. There's nothing wrong with making him think and now you will shut up about this nonsense.

Alright why not vote

1 Qui Gon jinn - Boss Nass - - - - Justified Yes/No
2 Qui Gon Jinn - Watto - - - - Justified Yes/No
3 Qui Gon Jinn - Roll of dice - - - -Justified Yes/No (albeit a little different
But still related to loss of free will)
4 Obi Wan Kenobi - Elan Sleazebaggano - - - - Justified Yes/No
5 Anakin Skywalker - Zam Wessell - - - - Justified Yes/No
6 Palpatine - Anakin Skywalker - - - -Possibly no use of force power but
still he did still basically trick him
6 Obi Wan Kenobi - Tusken Raiders - - - - Justified Yes/No
7 Obi Wan Kenobi - Stormtroopers - - - - Justified Yes/No
8 Obi Wan Kenobi - Stormtroopers (DS) - - - -Justified Yes/No
9 Luke Skywalker - Bib FOrtuna - - - - - Justified Yes/No
10 Luke Skywalker - Jabba - - - - Justified Yes/No

You keep arguing one event, what about the other nine. If you want to prove your point then use some of these other events to prove it. Your continual bashing on the one point when there is so much more evidence at hand to either disprove or prove what you say.

Otherwise you are only arguing for the sake of arguing. Which shows again an anti social, disruptive, anarchaic nature.

Originally posted by overlord
Uhmm.. No.
You're trying to act like a retard. It's pretty easy to say that I'm only looking at it from Obi Wan's perspective but it's Elan who gets lucky. That's what I'm trying to say. There's nothing wrong with making him think and now you will shut up about this nonsense.

We are are perfectly willing to shut up. However if you keep dishing out insults to us, we will just keep going on. Everyone has said all there is to say on this subject. We all have our opinions on this matter but once again it is just fiction. I just happen to get a tad upset when someones rights are violated. To me it does not matter if it is fact or fiction. In paticuler when it comes to star wars. The world of Star Wars reflects our world in so many ways. Lucas uses many elements from our world in the star wars universe. The war of the Rebellion vs The Empire is very much like the Revolutionary War. For those that do not know what that is, look it up. If you examine the movies close enough you will discover many other things that will remind you of things have have either happened in the past here on Earth, or what is currently going on. Which is often the case with of the prequals.

There are sometimes cops who take it apon themselves to punish criminals. Which as we know usualy results in them loosing their job or worse. Despite Obi-Wan's good intentions, he forced Elan to go home and rethink his life. The choice to rethink ones life should be that person's choice. This is a choice that Elan was denied.

We will never know the exact authority the jedi have on law enforcement. So there is little point on debating on it.

Originally posted by Archangelysses
Alright why not vote

1 Qui Gon jinn - Boss Nass - - - - Justified Yes/No
2 Qui Gon Jinn - Watto - - - - Justified Yes/No
3 Qui Gon Jinn - Roll of dice - - - -Justified Yes/No (albeit a little different
But still related to loss of free will)
4 Obi Wan Kenobi - Elan Sleazebaggano - - - - Justified Yes/No
5 Anakin Skywalker - Zam Wessell - - - - Justified Yes/No
6 Palpatine - Anakin Skywalker - - - -Possibly no use of force power but
still he did still basically trick him
6 Obi Wan Kenobi - Tusken Raiders - - - - Justified Yes/No
7 Obi Wan Kenobi - Stormtroopers - - - - Justified Yes/No
8 Obi Wan Kenobi - Stormtroopers (DS) - - - -Justified Yes/No
9 Luke Skywalker - Bib FOrtuna - - - - - Justified Yes/No
10 Luke Skywalker - Jabba - - - - Justified Yes/No

You keep arguing one event, what about the other nine. If you want to prove your point then use some of these other events to prove it. Your continual bashing on the one point when there is so much more evidence at hand to either disprove or prove what you say.

Otherwise you are only arguing for the sake of arguing. Which shows again an anti social, disruptive, anarchaic nature. Jedi still have their goal to achieve of course. Most were pretty justified, some were bending the rules to achieve the goal. Who cares, they are keepers of the peace.
Only throwing Palpatine in it is odd. He is no jedi! I can assure you of that!

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
We are are perfectly willing to shut up. However if you keep dishing out insults to us, we will just keep going on. Everyone has said all there is to say on this subject. We all have our opinions on this matter but once again it is just fiction. I just happen to get a tad upset when someones rights are violated. To me it does not matter if it is fact or fiction. In paticuler when it comes to star wars. The world of Star Wars reflects our world in so many ways. Lucas uses many elements from our world in the star wars universe. The war of the Rebellion vs The Empire is very much like the Revolutionary War. For those that do not know what that is, look it up. If you examine the movies close enough you will discover many other things that will remind you of things have have either happened in the past here on Earth, or what is currently going on. Which is often the case with of the prequals.

There are sometimes cops who take it apon themselves to punish criminals. Which as we know usualy results in them loosing their job or worse. Despite Obi-Wan's good intentions, he forced Elan to go home and rethink his life. The choice to rethink ones life should be that person's choice. This is a choice that Elan was denied.

We will never know the exact authority the jedi have on law enforcement. So there is little point on debating on it. Jesus Christ, you're such a pussy!! You keep going on solely because of people notifying you how stupid you are? Star Wars reflects todays society and you are worried about people crossing other peoples rights?
I'd give anything to not get beaten the shit out of when selling drugs and just forced to go think about it. I can just continue if I want and it wouldn't feel as punishment to me.
Only to you perhaps, but you are weird.

OMG!! He didn't have the chance to choose for thinking or no thinking! I know some people are able to go through life without thinking but it would be better if we would all think really good before acting. Especially stuff involving crime!

I wasn't saying he was jedi, just using it as another point towards Jam Jul and Rampant.

If they want to argue elan, then argue against all those uses, I am sure if you look closely there was far more violating in some of the other cases. Funny how those two still choose to ignore all these other points and focus on the drug dealer case though

"We are perfectly willing to shut up"

all evidence to the contrary

1 Qui Gon jinn - Boss Nass - - - - Justified Yes- He needed to get to theed to rescue the queen. not to mention he could not just let Jar Jar die.
2 Qui Gon Jinn - Watto - - - - Justified Yes-He needed to get the queen back to corucant. It concerned her safety and the fate of a whole world.
3 Qui Gon Jinn - Roll of dice - - - -Justified Yes (albeit a little different
But still related to loss of free will)-He believed Anakin to be the chosan one and believed he needed to be trained as a jedi.
4 Obi Wan Kenobi - Elan Sleazebaggano - - - - Justified No- He only knew Elan for 3 seconds. All he knew was he was a male and that he was selling death sticks. It looked like to me that Elan was just annoying him.
5 Anakin Skywalker - Zam Wessell - - - - Justified Yes/No-Can not answer this cause I am not sure who this is.
6 Palpatine - Anakin Skywalker - - - -Possibly no use of force power but
still he did still basically trick him- I am sure Palpatine felt his reasons were justified but in reality they were not.
6 Obi Wan Kenobi - Tusken Raiders - - - - Justified Yes- It was to save Luke's life. Also please note he did not use a mind trick. He a jedi technique to make that noice which he knew would scare them. They choose to run.
7 Obi Wan Kenobi - Stormtroopers - - - - Justified Yes- It was vital for the safety of the universe that he do this. Remember R2 had the death star plans
8 Obi Wan Kenobi - Stormtroopers (DS) - - - -Justified Yes- It was vital for the safety of the universe that he do this. Remember R2 had the death star plans.
9 Luke Skywalker - Bib FOrtuna - - - - - Justified Yes- It was neccesary to Rescue Han.
10 Luke Skywalker - Jabba - - - - Justified Yes- It was neccesary to Rescue Han.

1 - He needed to get to Theed hmmm. Thats alright enough to subjugate the rightful ruler of the gunguns and choose for him. Because that is what qui gon did. Not just force someone to THINK but to think for him. Yet you say that action is justified. Boss Nass was ruler of the Gunguns. Rightful ruler. ANd he got Mindf***ed completely. Not only did he have no choice at all, it was chosen for him and forced on him.

To compare to Elan, then Obi Wan would have had to have said - Give up selling deathsticks right now and go and help people. One was told to think and the other told exactly what the thought should be

That's funny, Jam Jul only finds the thing with Elan not justified and the one the sith lord pulled.

2 - Attempting to force someone to accept money that is worthless in that area and you say justified.

To put in to you then in this regard. Maybe I should find a drug dealer and force him to accept monopoly money as I really really need them for pain relief Justified???

3, I believe my brother should be a millionaire and I should be able to retire and write for a living so I should take my brother to the casino and have the dice come up 7 when I want it to

5 Anakin Skywalker - Zam Wessell. Bounty hunter that they followed to the club where Elan was. Anakin when he said tell us was actually using the force to "force" her to talk. That is why her voice becomes so strained as she was basically being made to talk when she did not want to.

Would that not be a misuse of power - so much for right to remain silent. Not that miranda rights exist in that universe

6 still tricked them though. Maybe I should get a recording of a cobra hissing, and a taxidermied snake and place them next to someone while they are sleeping.

Actually the hilarity of that would be justified. LOL

Originally posted by Archangelysses
2 - Attempting to force someone to accept money that is worthless in that area and you say justified.

To put in to you then in this regard. Maybe I should find a drug dealer and force him to accept monopoly money as I really really need them for pain relief Justified???
Originally posted by Archangelysses
5 Anakin Skywalker - Zam Wessell. Bounty hunter that they followed to the club where Elan was. Anakin when he said tell us was actually using the force to "force" her to talk. That is why her voice becomes so strained as she was basically being made to talk when she did not want to.

Would that not be a misuse of power - so much for right to remain silent. Not that miranda rights exist in that universe Jam Jul doesn't know what he's talking about anyway.. glare

Is Monopoly money REAL then? Because that makes me quite rich.

Republic credits are what Watto SHOULD have been accepting. They are legal tender throughout the Republic. It is only because Watto is a criminal dealer that he wants something else. QGJ had every right to pay with those credits.

Her voice goes strange because she was dying- no use of the Force was involved.

Besides which everyone is looking at mind affecting as a sort of permanent brain-rewiring. It is not- it is just a spur of the moment sleight of hand.

The final arbiter- Jedi do good in Star Wars. Star Wars has a clear morality of good and evil. The Jedi are good. That is pretty much how it goes.

Jedi deserve to be where they are, because they are good and wise and geroic. Furthermore, they don't actually exercise any authority which is not legally given to them by the Republic.

The odd thing is, any child watching it would undersstand that the Jedi are good, which is what GL wanted. All these petty and spurious objections do not look very smart.

Not to pick a fight with you Ushgarak, but she was not dying at that time. It was because she started to tell them about Jango when Jango shot her with the dart. Then she was dying.

Not that it is perfectly canon - but the novelisation ( I know, I know, not 100% proof ) states that he used an awesome amount of force power to push her into talking.

Originally posted by overlord
Jam Jul doesn't know what he's talking about anyway.. glare

Here you are picking a fight again. Most of us here are just trying to have a friendly discussion. Then you come in and dish out insults. This is not the only thread where you have done so. I am getting sick of it. I am going to ask you nicely. Will you please stop insulting people?

I definitely agree with you on that point about Overlord.

I agree also. Overlord, if you are not going to argue properly dont argue at all. People dont come to these forums to get bashed by you, and you have no right doing so.

Nice sig by the way. I see that you're a Christopher Lee fan.

Thanks. Skeets made it for me. And yes I am a huge Christopher Lee fan!! He is easily the best actor in the world and has shown us some of the best movie villians ever.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
Here you are picking a fight again. Most of us here are just trying to have a friendly discussion. Then you come in and dish out insults. This is not the only thread where you have done so. I am getting sick of it. I am going to ask you nicely. Will you please stop insulting people? Originally posted by GM Nebaris
I definitely agree with you on that point about Overlord. Originally posted by Rampant ox
I agree also. Overlord, if you are not going to argue properly dont argue at all. People dont come to these forums to get bashed by you, and you have no right doing so. Check the page before this one, numbskulls. You can click the , you didn't know that huh? You can continue your retarded debate over there. But I can understand that you rather ignore those points which go against your ideas.
By the way, saying that you have no idea to what you're talking about is nothing, get over it and respond to comments directed towards you. NOW.

Better question

Who died and made the Sith God? What gave these cheating, lying, vengeful, sick, twisted, warped, murdering, A Holes the belief that only they could rule the galaxy.

BINGO

I just realised why? Its cause they never got laid

Prune Face - Definately a virgin
Spike Boy - Did you see that smile, not even a swamp donkey would take that on
Old Fart - Too old to get it up, and NO VIAGRA
Roborooter - Forgot to add that part back on

Originally posted by Sesse
Yea... And the decision to "save" jar jar was without any reason!


Qui Gon: "We need a navigator to get through the planet's core. This gungan might be of a help".

5 minutes passes...

Jarjar: "Where are wesa going?"
Qui Gon: "The force will guide us."

DUH!

How can saving a life be without reason? I think he probably lied in order to save a life which as a knight is an acceptable thing to do.
The knights code of chivalry tells us to protect those in distress and those who are weaker than ourselves.

wtf?

Lets face it, Jedi were sometime in the past selected to be the guardians of the republic, their alleginace is to the senate.... There was no army, cause that army led to the war against the mandalore, the stark hyperspace war and more and more conflicts
Qui Gon did serve the living force by discovering Anakin and saving the stupid Jar Jar: Anakin did brought balance to the force..... 2 jedi-2 sith, what can be more balanced than that?