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If they're one of the three, list them in a list from 1-5.

#1 Darth Sidious- He managed to cloud the Jedi's foresight capabilities. He trained numerous Sith Apprentices, who are acknowledged as being extremely powerful. He himself has great foresight powers and coudl use a lgithsaber with deadly skill. He was the only Sith or Jedi to bring himself back to life. It was a mixture of his immense skill and his tactical mind.

#2 Luke Skywalker- He was rough at the beginning, but over time, he's been molded into one of the best Jedi ever. He's overcome impossible odds, and come back from all of it stronger than ever. He has a powerful will and can summon the Force to do the impssible.

#3 Jedi Master Yoda- Ah... Dear little Yoda. A true example of not to judge someone by their look or age. He is not the most powerful lightsaber fighter ever, but he has tremendous control over the Force and can kick serious tail.

#4 (Jedi Master) Joruus C'baoth- I've already explained this. A clone capable of calling on the Force to do incredible things. Madness does not limit his power.

#5 Jacen Solo- Read The Unified Force. Amazing.

They're all great jedi and sith, but surely there's a place in that list for Exar Kun...he was one bad mofo. Lets not forget the Sith Wars. And didn't he almost kill Luke Skywalker? I forget which book it's in but he comes pretty close doesn't he

You mean Dark Apprentice? If so, it was mainly Kyp. Kun was there, blasting luke a bit, but it was mainly Kyp's newfound dark side abilities that finished him off. Unless, the attack that disabled Luke's lightsaber was done by Exar. I'm not sure.

He's powerful, but I think the newer characters have grown more powerful than the older ones.

Yeah that's the one. Yeah Kyp does a lot of the work in trying to kill Luke, but I was looking at it more as Exar being the one behind Kyp's power. And yeah a lot of the new jedi are really powerful, but there are so many powerful jedi and sith who all have their own strengths and weaknesses, and their own accomplishments. That's why I would find it hard to list who I thought would be most powerful anyway.

Most powerful ever?

1. Marka Ragnos

2. Revan

3. NJO Luke

4. Exar Kun

5. Naga Sadow

The list could use some work probably and if I think about it longer it will probably change but its good enough, for now.

1. Marka Ragnos
2. Revan
3. Yoda
4. Luke Skywalker (NJO)
5. Naga Sadow

Although Darth Traya wasn't too well skilled with a lightsaber, there is immense truth in what she says:

Neither the light or dark side is more powerful than the other.
This theory is proven in Episode 3 when Anakin And Obi-Wan use force push at exactly the same moment and neither of them comes off of it better or worse. They just stay there.
Although I Would like to think there is a more powerful side, i can't


Who Agree's?

That makes sense. However, it is a idfference in how you can obtain and control the power.

Some fall to the dark side and are destroyed. It depends on control. If they can control their rage, their anger and hate and use it, they can live. It gives them strong bursts of immense power, as it enabled Luke to defeat Vader. However, over time as we saw in Anakin, it will destroy them. They must focus on it.

The light side is just as tough to utilize correctly. You have rules and provisions, that seriously impair your whims. Some of them are for the best, others are not and seem foolish. You might ultimately be restricted by the light's ways, ro you might actually focus it and become like Yoda and Luke.

It's the individual.

The Dark Side is not more powerful it is faster however and can give you immense power and will if you submit yourself to it. The light side teaches control which can be immensely powerful if you are really trained at it.

IMO for the most powerful it hardly matters if you are Dark or Light but for the weaker amongst them for the Padawans and those that have just became Jedi Knights or weak masters the Dark Side can be more powerful because it gives you power immediately. At the end however between the two most powerful which side they follow doesn't matter anymore.

1. Darth Revan

2. NJO Luke

3. Yoda

4. Exar Kun

5. The Exile

1-Marka Ragnos

2-Exar Kun

3- Revan

4- Naga Sadow

5- Malak, or NJO Luke

Define Power to me!

In broad definition of Power, Sidious held more of it than Revan! It doesn`t matter who would win in lightsaber duel!

I define Power as all around fighting. Whether Lightsaber combat be your forte, or force powers. Is this just a force power match?

I agree with D. Macabre...

Here is mine:
1. NJO Luke
2. Marka Ragnos
3. Darth Revan
4. Human Darth Vader
5. Yoda

I put Marka second cuz i never really saw him battle, but I readed NJO Luke's story and it was AWESOME !!

What about Anakin before he got hacked up? Or NJO Jacen when he takes in all the power unknowingly?

1. Light/Darkside Revan (The greatest SW character ever)
2. Darth Nihilus/The Exile (I think they were equal in power)
3. Marka Ragnos (He was pathetic in Jedi Academy)
4. Naga Sadow
5. Exar Kun

Now, I know there are people who are going to say that Marka Ragnos got weaker over the years, but he was still laughable in Jedi Academy, even on Jedi Master difficulty.

1. Darth Revan: A brilliant leader and military strategist. He was so close to dominating the galaxy until Malak decided that he was gonna screw things up because he was all mad that he dropped his jaw somewhere.

2. Darth Sidious: He fooled everyones ass and he was a very powerful and smart man... Until he got bench pressed into a generator.

3. Darth Vader: He is such a powerful sith lord. He massed an empire that destroyed countless thousands and he has some cool quotes, but he dies pure. Stupid pussy.

4.Obi Wan Kenobi: alot of people underestimate his power but if he is so weak, why did he become twice as powerful when he died? He loses his lightsaber too much though... Stupid Jedi.


5. Mace Windu: Mace Windu was a freakin' nut. And i like purple sabers. Too bad he got launched 50 feet out of a window. That's why i call him Window Windu.

6. Yoda: Yoda has some kkkkurazy lightsaber skills. Flippin' n trippin'. He dies like a punk though. Oh well.

7. Darth Maul: Badass looking mofo. And he had a cool saber, but he got "halfed" if you know what i mean.

8.Kit Fisto: I have always loved him and his history of underwater battles. He gets slashed by palp though.

9:General Grievous: Grievous is a cool looking guy. And the best droid ever. He gets a breather when he gets shot in the lungs. Ouch!

10. Plo Koon: Plo Koon is MAH BOY! He is the coolest looking species ever. But he gets blown ta bits. Damn!

AJUNTA PALL
TULAK HORD
MARKA RAGNOS
NAGA SADOW
EXAR KUN
DARTH TRIVAN
DARTH TRAYA
DARTH REVAN
DARTH MALAK
DARTH BANDON
DARTH SION
DARTH BANE
DARTH PLAGUEIS
DARTH SIDIOUS
DARTH MAUL
DARTH TYRANUS
DARTH VADER
YODA
LUKE SKYWALKER
MACE WINDU
OBI-WAN KENOBI
PLO KOON

A LONG LIST BUT WHICH ONE? YOU TELL ME!

(1) NJO Luke Skywalker
(2) Darth Vader & Marka Ragnos
(3) Yoda
(4) Darth Revan
(5) ROTS Anakin Skywalker (he could have come to be much much more than what he was)

Jedi Sith

Luke Sidious
Yoda Vader
Obi-Wan Bane
Mace Maul
Qui-Gon Tyranus

None of you have got Kyp on any list he has to be powerful - he could grow into a strong master

wot about the twins - Jacen is great by the end........ i think...........

.............. no wait i stop thinking!

1) Darth Nihilous - Has the power to rip the force from force-sensitives killing them in the process "there are some techniques within the force from which there is no defence" - Darth Traya
2) Darth Revan - He was skilled with a lightsaber and the force but his power came from his tacticul genius and leadership qualities that made it easy to control entire armadas and turn jedi seemingly at will
3) Naga Sadow - Can send stars supernova! nuff said not a duel winning ability though and as far as planet killing goes nihilous is equally effective
4) Tulak Hord - His power lies not so much with the force but his immense ability with the lightsaber at which he is the ultimate sith combatant
5) Marka Ragnos - An ancient sith lord who possesses an untold immense power! Its gotta get him on the list

SithLord... you are funny... Sadow was incredibly scared of Ragnos never dared to move against Marka and you still think he is more powerful then Ragnos?

Well at least he did things, the entire argument for Marka's power is he ruled over Naga basically and for a long time unchallenged. Still if he's the most powerful being ever and he has all of these strong Sith underneath him, why not attack the Republic?

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Well at least he did things, the entire argument for Marka's power is he ruled over Naga basically and for a long time unchallenged. Still if he's the most powerful being ever and he has all of these strong Sith underneath him, why not attack the Republic?

Because he was afraid, and possibly with good reason.. He didn't attack an unknown threat because he feared what it could do. He feared that those people would be so much more powerful then him.

But yeah the argument for Ragnos is pretty simple but also incredibly effective. Lets say you have three people

Normal Human A, soldier, Ancient Spartan...

Now we all know that soldier will beat normal human... Spartan will beat soldier, wouldn't that naturally make Spartan more powerful then normal human? Just saying.

Yes, but the argument for Ragnos is too short, and one-sided. If we actually saw him doing stuff in books or games we would see some weaknesses as well. It would flesh out his character and abilities actually showing the things he does.

Let me give an example: We hear that 100 years ago, there was a guy that was an awesome mastermind. He had brilliant plans, etc. Everyone assumes he is one of the best ever, but somehow we go back in time and actually see what happens, we find out that he stole ideas from others, killing anyone else who got in his way. No one would dare expose the truth out of fear. Things can be misleading sometimes. Before ROTS, everyone pretty much assumed Sidious would defeat Mace and the other 3, and defeat Yoda because we had never seen him fight before (actually fighting).

I'm not saying Ragnos is weak, I still place him rather high, but I put others ahead of him because they have accomplishments, we have seen them fight, and we know basically the whole side of them.

Thankyou Emperor revan this was my thinking too! Ragnos earns his place on my list due to reputation nothing more! He could be awesomely powerful as Sadow's respect for him would indicate but he could also be a cheap conjuror who relies on his reputation for his power

No problem. Glad I've got someone else on my side.

how can we have all these great lords in a higher position than the other? they all hold their unique and powerful abilities, making them equals in a unique way.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Yes, but the argument for Ragnos is too short, and one-sided. If we actually saw him doing stuff in books or games we would see some weaknesses as well. It would flesh out his character and abilities actually showing the things he does.

Let me give an example: We hear that 100 years ago, there was a guy that was an awesome mastermind. He had brilliant plans, etc. Everyone assumes he is one of the best ever, but somehow we go back in time and actually see what happens, we find out that he stole ideas from others, killing anyone else who got in his way. No one would dare expose the truth out of fear. Things can be misleading sometimes. Before ROTS, everyone pretty much assumed Sidious would defeat Mace and the other 3, and defeat Yoda because we had never seen him fight before (actually fighting).

I'm not saying Ragnos is weak, I still place him rather high, but I put others ahead of him because they have accomplishments, we have seen them fight, and we know basically the whole side of them.

Could be, but I think you are comparing the wrong things here. You see Sadow actually did fight and he was still scared of Ragnos, Ragnos did fight we don't know who but we do know he did fight... Meaning he was still powerful enough to defeat all of them and they were scared for more reasons then just cheap tricks... How powerful he was we just don't know, but he had to be incredibly powerful

Like I said, I give him a lot of credit, he's like 9th or something on my list, but could Revan have defeated those guys we don't know about? 99.9% chance I would say so since we actually know the beings he's fought which are very powerful and he's defeated every one of them. He is feared as well, though his fear extends to the whole galaxy, not just Korriban.

As for Sadow, who did he fight? Ludo Kressh but they never finished the duel. So his power comes from using Sith MAGIC to cause stars to go supernova. Not necessarily a really powerful connection to the Force here, and as I've said before, perhaps no one else has done it because it's a rare gift like Bastila's battle meditation. It doesn't really make you more powerful but more useful. Besides, who else would need to blow up a star? No one except maybe Ragnos, even with his "awesome" power, someone who could blow up stars, and an entire Sith army and he's afraid of the Republic which to my knowledge hasn't fought a full scale war in some time?

Read Wikipedia about Marka, it has a paragraph and mostly about him being in the game Jedi Academy. Speaking of which, let's look at that. Marka comes back as a spirit, infests a Force User's body (and granted she wasn't all that weak) and still gets defeated by a Jedi knight, albeit one who's about at Kyle Katarn's level. Now let's look at Exar Kun's spirit, and this is JUST his spirit, he destroyed a Force User, corrupted 3 individuals and it took 12 padawans and Luke and Vodo-Siosk Bas's spirit JOINING their power to destroy Kun. He even Force choked those 12 padawans at the same time, but after a minute they resisted it.
That's way more than Marka did, and his spirit was inside a Dark Jedi master. So no, I don't think he's the most powerful.

Well I agree that we know far to little abou himt, far to little to make a good guess of how powerful he was. Could Revan beat him? I don't think so, would he if the two fought? Who knows, nobody does. Its a serious lack of knowledge that makes Marka as powerful as he is and not more powerful.

And about that ghost, come on be serious here? That game is so full of shit, it just doesn't make any sense Ragnos should have beat the crap out of everybody that entered that room, every single last one of them. I really think that game is a mayor screw up, but I guess you could explain it threw other ways let me try.

- Ragnos didn't feel like returning all that much if he did he would have done so on his own.. Others did
- He just came back and probably wasn't on his full power back
- Korriban its gasses poisoned Sith because the last true Sith let out a fart that still haunts them..

Okay seriously those reasons make no sense, all I'm trying to say is, that Ragnos no matter how little we know about him should still rule the seven sea's

What about Ben Skywalker?

Originally posted by Fishy
Well I agree that we know far to little abou himt, far to little to make a good guess of how powerful he was. Could Revan beat him? I don't think so, would he if the two fought? Who knows, nobody does. Its a serious lack of knowledge that makes Marka as powerful as he is and not more powerful.

And about that ghost, come on be serious here? That game is so full of shit, it just doesn't make any sense Ragnos should have beat the crap out of everybody that entered that room, every single last one of them. I really think that game is a mayor screw up, but I guess you could explain it threw other ways let me try.

- Ragnos didn't feel like returning all that much if he did he would have done so on his own.. Others did
- He just came back and probably wasn't on his full power back
- Korriban its gasses poisoned Sith because the last true Sith let out a fart that still haunts them..

Okay seriously those reasons make no sense, all I'm trying to say is, that Ragnos no matter how little we know about him should still rule the seven sea's

Listen to yourself saying what Ragnos should've done, you're making excuses for him when this is the best thing we have to go on. We don't know how powerful Ragnos is but this is our biggest lead and you're denying it because you think he should be all powerful even though we have absolutely no proof of HIS power other than he was feared? Come on.

1. Ragnos DID want to come back, he said "a mere Jedi child shall not undo my return" and "This is impossible! One day I will return and annihilate you all!"

2. Did you see how much energy Tavion poured into him from that Scepter? And she didn't even use it all. He was definitely at full power if he came back.

3. lol

Still, you are saying the game is full of crap because Ragnos isn't as powerful as you want him? Be serious, this isn't a fan contest.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Listen to yourself saying what Ragnos should've done, you're making excuses for him when this is the best thing we have to go on. We don't know how powerful Ragnos is but this is our biggest lead and you're denying it because you think he should be all powerful even though we have absolutely no proof of HIS power other than he was feared? Come on.

1. Ragnos DID want to come back, he said "a mere Jedi child shall not undo my return" and "This is impossible! One day I will return and annihilate you all!"

2. Did you see how much energy Tavion poured into him from that Scepter? And she didn't even use it all. He was definitely at full power if he came back.

3. lol

Still, you are saying the game is full of crap because Ragnos isn't as powerful as you want him? Be serious, this isn't a fan contest.

No not because I want him to be, but because it makes no sense if he wasn't. He is legendaric there has to be a reason for it. The best we know of him still isn't much, but it would at least suggest he's going to be very powerful. And yeah really that game is full of crap, in part in JK2 Kyle was more powerful then Luke.

What makes no sense? Again, how was he legendaric, what did he do? No one knows how powerful he is or even anywhere close, everyone simply assumes he is. This is the best we have to judge his power to because we can compare his power to Exar Kun whom we actually know about. And how is the game full of crap otherwise? Why do you think JK2 Kyle was more powerful than Luke?

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
What makes no sense? Again, how was he legendaric, what did he do? No one knows how powerful he is or even anywhere close, everyone simply assumes he is. This is the best we have to judge his power to because we can compare his power to Exar Kun whom we actually know about. And how is the game full of crap otherwise? Why do you think JK2 Kyle was more powerful than Luke?

Dessan owned Luke, Kyle owned Dessan.

Desann didn't own Luke, the battle showed them pretty equal with Desann winning by trapping Luke. Yes it was a horrible cutscene but c'mon, it's Luke we're talking about. He was undoubtedly not trying to fight and trying to get Desann to come back to his academy. Secondly he does say that he never even felt him coming, so even with a surprise Desann didn't win and if Desann really owned Luke than why did Desann leave so quickly? Also note that when Luke knocked off the rubble he wasn't breathing hard but he instead shook his head that Desann had turned to the Dark Side.

As for Kyle, we don't know how hard it was for him to win. Game wise it's pretty hard unless you're on padawan so Kyle probably had some trouble beating Desann.

All SW game characters are far overpowered and defying any logic.

Revan is
The Exile is
Kyle Katarn is

Otherwise it would not make any fun, playing the games. You simply HAVE to be able to kill anybody. And most likely you can kill your opponents ways too easy when you assume what they SHOULD be able to do.

I did think the Exile was overpowered... Revan however? Not really. Malak was tough no matter what

I thought the Exile was overpowered as well, I mean Kreia has him paralyzed on the floor with one use of the Force and then the Exile fights through a whole ship and a planet, kills two Sith lords and suddenly he can't beat her even though they're on Malachor V? As for Kyle, he got way too powerful in Jedi knight with basically little Jedi training and Force experience.

As for Revan? I don't know. I think they made him so powerful so more people would be interested in that time period but I will admit, he is good at EVERYTHING which is a little unusual and some would find it annoying. Then again, since he is the player character I suppose it's good to make him so powerful...

Well Revan was a great fighter and a general, thats what he was good at. There are many people in history like that. Not uncommon and yes of course he had to be the best otherwise he wouldn't beat Malak and the game would just suck.

And I still don't get how the Exile killed Kreia...

Did Kreia want to die or something? Her control of the force was so much more amazing then his, she should have killed him easily.

I agree, maybe she finally looked in a mirror and thought, I'm sick of this world. I mean sure, the Exile got quite a bit stronger than their first "fight" but I don't think he could've beat her. Now she is what I would consider overpowered.

Malak is cowshit in he morning !!!
Revan is like a ...... senior-Vader

Well, we know who are newest newb genius is. Not only the freaky statement but the usual no reason to back it up. And of course he pulled that statement out his butt. Have you even read what we've been posting? Way off topic.

the PT is where some of the strongest Jedi ever lived.

Luke 15 years after ROTJ is the strongest
Yoda and Sids ain't far behind
Obi grew very strong
Anakin of course but he really lost it all

Exar Kun, Darth Bane, Maul all powerful Sith

1 NJO Luke
2 Revan
3 Yoda
4 marka
5 Obi Wan

...Speaking of which, let's look at that. Marka comes back as a spirit, infests a Force User's body (and granted she wasn't all that weak) and still gets defeated by a Jedi knight, albeit one who's about at Kyle Katarn's level. Now let's look at Exar Kun's spirit, and this is JUST his spirit, he destroyed a Force User, corrupted 3 individuals and it took 12 padawans and Luke and Vodo-Siosk Bas's spirit JOINING their power to destroy Kun. He even Force choked those 12 padawans at the same time, but after a minute they resisted it.
That's way more than Marka did, and his spirit was inside a Dark Jedi master. So no, I don't think he's the most powerful.

good point, I never considered that Exars spirt was far more powerful than Marka's spirt and a sith master joined together, maybe Exar was more powerful than Marka. However, I still say that Marka will own Naga. About Tulak, I think he is great, but I know too little about him other than one line from Kriea to truely believe he can beat everyone, so my list goes like this:

Sith:
1) Exar Kun
2) Darth Revan/Marka Ragnos (tied)
3) Naga Sadow
4) Ulic-Qel Droma
5) Darth Malak
6) Freedon Nadd
7) Ludo Kressh
8) Darth Vader (pre-lava bath)
9) Darth Sidious
10) Darth Bane

Jedi:
1) NJO Luke
2) Yoda
3) Mace Windu
4) Obi-Wan Kenobi
5) Nomi Sunrider
6) Plo Koon
7) Kit Fisto
8) Ki-Adi Mundi
9) Jacen Solo
10) Anakin Solo

I don't see how you can say Darth Malak is more powerful than Darth Vader. Don't take offence to this, but both Malak and Vader attacked a Jedi temple. Malak attacked a smaller Jedi Temple and he had Sith military memebers and Sith Knights at his aid. Vader attacked the main temple and only had Clonetroopers at his side. See the difference? Both are powerful, but Vader has this one.

The reason it took the 12 students, Luke SKywalker, and Vodo-Siosk Bas to destroy Exar Kun is because a spirit is harder to kill than just someone else that your actually dueling person vs. person. If Luke Skywalker had to duel Exar Kun with lightsabers, Exar would die. Though it would be a long duel.

Originally posted by Darth Plagues
I don't see how you can say Darth Malak is more powerful than Darth Vader. Don't take offence to this, but both Malak and Vader attacked a Jedi temple. Malak attacked a smaller Jedi Temple and he had Sith military memebers and Sith Knights at his aid. Vader attacked the main temple and only had Clonetroopers at his side. See the difference? Both are powerful, but Vader has this one.

No I don't... Thats hardly a measurement of power, what should have Malak done? If Malak would have gone down he would have faced some very powerful people that are on the Jedi Council. You have fun fighting those guys, Anakin would have lost from most Masters at least Malak defeatd Kavar once, that we know off.

Malak fought a hell of a lot more and had a greater command of the fore then Vader had.

Originally posted by Darth Plagues
I don't see how you can say Darth Malak is more powerful than Darth Vader. Don't take offence to this, but both Malak and Vader attacked a Jedi temple. Malak attacked a smaller Jedi Temple and he had Sith military memebers and Sith Knights at his aid. Vader attacked the main temple and only had Clonetroopers at his side. See the difference? Both are powerful, but Vader has this one.

Malak didn't do a thing against the Jedi temple. He was a coward. But then again, Anakin had thousands of clones and we saw it didn't take many to overpower even a master. The council level members were mostly out getting killed by clones, the only bodies we saw were of younglings and that woulda been hilarious if they had beat him.

But I do think Malak is stronger because he did learn a lot from Revan, the Jedi Council feared him, he could control the Star Forge which only one other was able to do, and he paralyzed Bastila and Carth pretty easy. Vader lost pathetically to a Jedi knight (albeit a powerful one).

Just for the heck of it, here's my top five as of right now:

1) Lord Revan
2) NJO Luke
3) Master Yoda
4) Exar Kun
5) The Exile

Emperor Revan, in a different thread, weren't you argueing about Exar being able to take Yoda?

Also, I'm not sure, but couldn't Malak be stronger than the Exile?

I put the Exile higher because he killed Traya who I think is stronger than Malak. As for the Exar Yoda thing, I wasn't arguing that, in fact I don't know who would win so I just created that thread to see if I could change my mind or something. Yoda's higher for now because he's green.

You put the Exile above Ragnos? Tulak? Sadow? Freedon? Malak? Ulic? Kressh (or however you spell it?) I never really thought to highly of him. And I still can't believe he really beat Kreia.

Revan
The Exile
Marka Ragnos
Freedon Nad
And The guy who was in the tomb that gave you all those visions in KOTOR 2.

Originally posted by Fishy
You put the Exile above Ragnos? Tulak? Sadow? Freedon? Malak? Ulic? Kressh (or however you spell it?) I never really thought to highly of him. And I still can't believe he really beat Kreia.

I put Kreia above malak and though she probably didn't want to win, he got much stronger since their last encounter and did beat her. As for the others, I don't know enough about them. Tulak is much lower and I don't even have Ulic, Kressh, or Freedon cuz I don't know enough about them. If they haven't fought anyone and won that has been recorded, I don't put them too high.

I know, I'm different.

Emperor Revan, I appreciate an individual that can actually debate with logic, but some of the points you attempt to use to undermine Ragnos' power is laughable, at best.

For example:



That's horrible logical fallacy and you (should) know it.

We don't know Luke's intentions in that game, however, Luke DID get trapped and if the match were to be called, it was a draw, at best, for NJO Luke.

Then of course, Kyle defeated Desann.

This isn't conclusive, I'm not trying to say it is. But if were to take JK2 as Canon, THE BEST you can argue for is that Desann, Luke, and Kyle are all three on a similar tier as far as their ability to duel with the force/lightsaber.

Desann fought Luke to a victory/draw, Kyle beat Desann.

You can spin this however you like, the facts are there.

Does this mean Kyle can beat Luke? Not necessarily.

The Key here is that Kyle and Luke are at LEAST on a similar tier, if the game is to be believed. Kyle's chances against Luke would have to depend on the matchup and who's having a good day. But to say that NJO Luke would run away in the matchup against Kyle would be a bit silly.

Now, you can DENY this fact if you want, because it does come from the JK2 game, however, you BLATANTLY use the fact that Ragnavion (yes, the nickname for Tavion + Ragnos) was defeated by Jaden in the sequel.

So what makes one video game incident takes precedence over the other?

You claim that Luke didn't get owned by Desann. Guess what? If he didn't get "owned" by Desann, he didn't win either, so they are of comparable level. To say otherwise would be to ASS-U-ME, which you tell everyone NOT to do for Ragnos.

Bottum line? Hypocrisy is a nasty adversary. Keep your references specific.

If you want to argue that Luke didn't get beat by Desann by some TECHNICALITY, then you can just as easily argue that Ragnos did not get beat by Jaden because he was using Tavion (who WAS already beaten) to do it.



That is bull and you know it.

So BECAUSE we know of a WWII veteran's exploits means he would win 99.9% of the time in a hand to hand fight with an Ancient Spartan?

That's hardly true. We ONLY know, in detail, about Revan's exploits. That doesn't give him a "99.9% chance" to beat Ragnos, who is an unknown quantity. It only shows that REVAN was the most powerful OF HIS TIME, while RAGNOS was the most powerful OF HIS TIME.

You try to compare eras all you want from this, extrapolate all the details, but don't tell me that Revan can beat Ragnos "99.9%" of the time BECAUSE we know of his exploits.

Knowing about someone's exploits doesn't affect their ability to beat each other down with sabers.



Hardly comparable.

Kun absorbed the whole Massassi race in order to empower his spirit.

After he was disenbodied from Kyp, he STILL had the power to FORCE GRIP padawans.

Ragnos? You can say his spirit wasn't quite empowered, he couldn't even exist outside of Tavion's body.

Besides, how does spirit show anything about the power of a Jedi?

QuiGon was the first to discover/rediscover how to make yourself immortal by being one with the force, does that mean he was a superior Jedi Master to ALL those former masters that couldn't do the same IN LIFE? Hardly.

You're again trying to compare the incomparable with the limited logic you have.



When did Tavio become a "Dark Jedi Master"?

She was an APPRENTICE to Desann just earlier in JK2, she wasn't even a "Dark Jedi" in that game, yet she somehow, probably through self-promotion becomes a "Dark Jedi Master". Right...

I'm not saying it's NOT possible that Revan is the most powerful, but you can't say BECAUSE we know of his exploits, he is greater than Marka Ragnos, who is CONSIDERED to be the greatest Sith Lord ever. That's logicl fallacy, and NOT valid in an argument.



It's not a lead at all. Pall's spirit was pathetic, does that mean he was a weakling? Uncertain. Spirit strength has unknown correlation to their ability as a Jedi/Sith, otherwise QuiGon could be considered one of the best Jedi's ever, I doubt that.

You can argue/spin facts all you want, Emperor Revan, but the fact remains:

You are trying to use unknown facts and faulty connections to try to "prove" your favorite character is greater than the character that is considered to be the "greatest" Sith Lord ever.

What is that I smell? Dare I say fanboyism?

The argument is simple:

Why Ragnos can be considered for the top spot based on what we DO KNOW.
He was a half-breed. Sith's hate half-breeds. And the only thing that Sith's are better at than killing Jedi are... well... Killing other Siths!
He reigned unquestioned for over a century. I dare you to find me another Sith that did just that. It's not saying he's not the greatest fighter, but he was definitely the greatest Sith LEADER. Arguing against this would be like saying Louis XIV wasn't the best French King.
Naga Sadow would piss his pants as soon as look at him. Ragnos has so much influence and power over Sadow, who was no weakling in his own right, that Sadow would sit calmly in the shadows. The second Ragnos DIES though, Sadow suddenly becomes empowers and challenges for the supreme rank. Ironic? Only if you consider Ragnos a weakling.
It was Ragnos' spirit that told Sadow to stop fighting, and even his spirit scared the piss out of him.
Ragnos crowned Exar the Sith Lord, and Ulic the apprentice.
Ragnos' Sith Scepter has the ability to drain the force from PLANETS. You'd have to assume the individual that could properly (and I doubt pansy Tavion could) would possess immense power.
The Sith were truly an EMPIRE at that time. None of the pansy rising up crap that the early Sith had to deal with. None of the Sith that eradicated themselves that Bane had to deal with. It was in this HEIGHTENED empire that RAGNOS ruled unquestioned. Arguing against this would effectively be saying that the Five Good Emperors during Pax Romana aren't good leaders, that's bull.


Does this list MEAN that Ragnos was the best?

No.

It doesn't prove a thing. But then again, none of these lists prove a thing.

This just shows that you SHOULDN'T use something that you DON'T know to count against him.

We are FULLY unaware of his powers. You argue that you shouldn't rank him high because of his powers. He deserves to be ranked high solely off reputation. You're DOCKING him for being an unknown quantity, which may I add, is definitely logical fallacy.

When it comes to pure strength and power, it's Marka Ragnos for #1, like Illustrious said. For #2 though it would have to be Palpatine, he influenced billions and billions of soldiers over an entire galaxy, c'mon that's good. And he was clever to boot, turned a republic into an empire from within in only 20 years. #3 is Naga Sadow, despite the fact his war against the Republic destroyed the Sith Empire, he still was able to use his magic to rip the core of a star out and send it supernova, also pretty good. #4 would probably be Exar Kun for busting into the Senate Chamber on Coruscant in the middle of Republic space filled with hundreds of Jedi Masters which he paralyzed using the force to free Ulic and told his apprentices to kill many of the masters. He also was able to disable the "powerful" Luke Skywalker.#5 I guess would have to be Revan, even though I'm not a fan video game characters for a list. He did defeat the Mandalorians though, found the Star Forge, trained many apprentices and in the end killed Malak, his so called "successor," and terrorized the galaxy for two and a half years. Oh and for the hell of it, Revan, Malak, their apprentices and anyone else who has been called "Darth" up to 1000 years before the Empire is wrong. The name Darth came into affect when Darth Bane created his code, Darth was his first name. Also, the way of apprentice successing their master by killing him was also invented by Bane, so what the games say is incorrect, hence Bastilia's description on the Star Forge. This is just in terms of the Most powerful Dark Jedi and/or Sith, for Revan and Malak were not trained in Sith arts or magic, just corrupted and they assumed the name Sith due to their corruptee who WAS a Sith. (probably)

No. I am not saying that Marka Ragnos is definitely #1.

We don't know about him for him to make that claim.

However, we KNOW a fair amount.

We KNOW he scared the shit out of the entire Sith Empire, who obeyed him even on his death bed.

We KNOW he was a half-breed, and that Sith's hate half-breeds. Do you think that anybody could get Siths to swallow their pride and follow a half-breed?

We KNOW he ruled for over a century, name a Sith that we know of that ruled for longer.

We KNOW he had such ridiculous control of Naga Sadow that even his spirit could make him tremble. And Naga Sadow is no slouch either.

Sure, people can say, "Well we don't know what he has accomplished". But guess what?

You can't use that AGAINST him.

If anything, that simply makes him not applicable, that doesn't mean that individuals like Exar, or like Revan, or like Sidious would be superior to him, it just shows that of WHAT we know they have accomplished more. It doesn't show what Ragnos COULD have accomplished, or what he DID do. The only thing that argument proves is that we know very little of what Ragnos has done.

However, from what we DO know, he was considered the greatest Sith Lord ever, that should count for something.



Exactly. I find it appalling how easily swayed some individuals are by video games. Is Revan a powerful individual? Absolutely. But there are a lot of inconsistencies with ANY video game.

Do you know why? Because it's for player entertainment! They have to balance the video game to some extent, and as a result, you'll see individuals that are always overpowered or underpowered. The fact that some individuals use a VIDEO GAME reference to show someone is superior to someone who is referenced in a BOOK just shows ignorance.



Very good point. They were known as Sith Lords, but definitely not given the title "Darth".

That's why you never hear of any individual like "Darth Kun" or "Darth Sadow" or "Darth Nadd" or "Darth Ragnos" or "Darth Qel Droma" for that matter.

Strongest Jedi:
Between Yoda and Luke

Strongest Sith:
Between Revan and Sidious

Strongest Dark Jedi:
I have to say Desann or Jerec

Marka Ragnos would wipe them all out :P

Originally posted by Darth_Rankkor
Marka Ragnos would wipe them all out :P

You sound like a n00b when you say crap like that with nothing to back it up. Ragnos is weaker than Kun alone, and yes I think I can prove it.

Kun could defeat Ragnos.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Emperor Revan, I appreciate an individual that can actually debate with logic, but some of the points you attempt to use to undermine Ragnos' power is laughable, at best.

That is bull and you know it.

So BECAUSE we know of a WWII veteran's exploits means he would win 99.9% of the time in a hand to hand fight with an Ancient Spartan?

That's hardly true. We ONLY know, in detail, about Revan's exploits. That doesn't give him a "99.9% chance" to beat Ragnos, who is an unknown quantity. It only shows that REVAN was the most powerful OF HIS TIME, while RAGNOS was the most powerful OF HIS TIME.

You try to compare eras all you want from this, extrapolate all the details, but don't tell me that Revan can beat Ragnos "99.9%" of the time BECAUSE we know of his exploits.

Knowing about someone's exploits doesn't affect their ability to beat each other down with sabers.

Hardly comparable.

Kun absorbed the whole Massassi race in order to empower his spirit.

After he was disenbodied from Kyp, he STILL had the power to FORCE GRIP padawans.

Ragnos? You can say his spirit wasn't quite empowered, he couldn't even exist outside of Tavion's body.

Besides, how does spirit show anything about the power of a Jedi?

QuiGon was the first to discover/rediscover how to make yourself immortal by being one with the force, does that mean he was a superior Jedi Master to ALL those former masters that couldn't do the same IN LIFE? Hardly.

You're again trying to compare the incomparable with the limited logic you have.

When did Tavio become a "Dark Jedi Master"?

She was an APPRENTICE to Desann just earlier in JK2, she wasn't even a "Dark Jedi" in that game, yet she somehow, probably through self-promotion becomes a "Dark Jedi Master". Right...

I'm not saying it's NOT possible that Revan is the most powerful, but you can't say BECAUSE we know of his exploits, he is greater than Marka Ragnos, who is CONSIDERED to be the greatest Sith Lord ever. That's logicl fallacy, and NOT valid in an argument.

It's not a lead at all. Pall's spirit was pathetic, does that mean he was a weakling? Uncertain. Spirit strength has unknown correlation to their ability as a Jedi/Sith, otherwise QuiGon could be considered one of the best Jedi's ever, I doubt that.

You can argue/spin facts all you want, Emperor Revan, but the fact remains:

You are trying to use unknown facts and faulty connections to try to "prove" your favorite character is greater than the character that is considered to be the "greatest" Sith Lord ever.

What is that I smell? Dare I say fanboyism?

The argument is simple:

Why Ragnos can be considered for the top spot based on what we DO KNOW.
He was a half-breed. Sith's hate half-breeds. And the only thing that Sith's are better at than killing Jedi are... well... Killing other Siths!
He reigned unquestioned for over a century. I dare you to find me another Sith that did just that. It's not saying he's not the greatest fighter, but he was definitely the greatest Sith LEADER. Arguing against this would be like saying Louis XIV wasn't the best French King.
Naga Sadow would piss his pants as soon as look at him. Ragnos has so much influence and power over Sadow, who was no weakling in his own right, that Sadow would sit calmly in the shadows. The second Ragnos DIES though, Sadow suddenly becomes empowers and challenges for the supreme rank. Ironic? Only if you consider Ragnos a weakling.
It was Ragnos' spirit that told Sadow to stop fighting, and even his spirit scared the piss out of him.
Ragnos crowned Exar the Sith Lord, and Ulic the apprentice.
Ragnos' Sith Scepter has the ability to drain the force from PLANETS. You'd have to assume the individual that could properly (and I doubt pansy Tavion could) would possess immense power.
The Sith were truly an EMPIRE at that time. None of the pansy rising up crap that the early Sith had to deal with. None of the Sith that eradicated themselves that Bane had to deal with. It was in this HEIGHTENED empire that RAGNOS ruled unquestioned. Arguing against this would effectively be saying that the Five Good Emperors during Pax Romana aren't good leaders, that's bull.


Does this list MEAN that Ragnos was the best?

No.

It doesn't prove a thing. But then again, none of these lists prove a thing.

This just shows that you SHOULDN'T use something that you DON'T know to count against him.

We are FULLY unaware of his powers. You argue that you shouldn't rank him high because of his powers. He deserves to be ranked high solely off reputation. You're DOCKING him for being an unknown quantity, which may I add, is definitely logical fallacy.

I just barely read your post so I am responding to it immediately. I thank you for calling me a good debater but this is not fanboyism and it never has been. Otherwise I would think Maul is the third most powerful being ever which he sure as hell isn't.

I'm not even gonna touch that Desann thing, seems irrelevant to the Ragnos situation.

When I said the 99.9% chance I was saying something about Revan beating unknown characters or something I don't even remember, NOT Ragnos. (Or if it was, it was a typo.)

Now you said something like Ragnos is considered to be the greatest Sith ever, and I was trying to show Revan was more powerful or somesuch. Anyway, Wikipedia directly says that Lord Revan is "Thought by many to be the most powerful Sith lord of all time" and yet it says little (surprise, surprise) about Ragnos. So it's not just me, it's many.

Now Kun absorbed the whole Massassi race, but Tavion filled Ragnos to full power with Force energy so it seems like a moot point. Ragnos proved weaker even in a Force user and with a Sith sword than a Jedi knight. Now I compare their spirits because it's the largest piece of information we have on Ragnos.

As for Tavion being a Dark Jedi master, she did throw Kyle against a pillar with Force push, has mastered Force lightning, etc. I don't think she is as powerful as Jerec, or even Desann but she is quite powerful none-the-less and has her own apprentice.

Now spirits represent the power of their old selves, except much weaker. Naturally if someone's spirit is stronger than another's spirit, that first one would be stronger in their normal physical body than the other.

1. Who said they hated half-breeds? none of the sites I have seen information on Ragnos mentioned that at all, I've only heard it here...

2. He reigned for a century. By that time, he would have so many supporters that trying to oppose Ragnos in any way would be suicide. Yoda was the strongest Jedi council member for 700 years or longer, 7 times that of Ragnos, yet he isn't considered to be a god by fanboys (not including you).

3. Sadow was a coward who always tried to run from a fight, even against Ludo Kressh. It's no surprise he feared Ragnos. And why would he try and kill Ragnos when he could simply wait for him to die and let every Sith join under him instead of try and kill him?

4. Sadow formulated a plan right after Ragnos said that, there was no need for him to continue fighting Kressh.

5. So? He also thought they would restore the Sith empire or something and that didn't happen.

6. So his scepter was good, woo hoo. Anyone could use it.

7. An Empire? If they were so powerful than why not take over the Republic? Revan basically did it. Ragnos ruled over Sith who were too busy fighting each other and this was just one planet. Revan had the galaxy at his feet, with every Sith and Jedi in the galaxy fearing him or already slain by him. And that numbered in the thousands. Ragnos thought it was impossible to conquer the galaxy yet Revan basically did it.

8. Ragnos sat on his butt for 100 years so his power would naturally have grown weaker.

So know I ask, what does Ragnos have that Revan doesn't?

Number of enemies killed? No.
Any powerful enemies he killed? No.
Was he scared of trying to conquer the galaxy yet Revan did it? Yes.
Does Ragnos have more Sith knowledge? No.
Did Ragnos do anything off planet? No.
Does Lord Revan have amazing accomplishments and high praise from people of his time while Ragnos does not? Yes.
A more powerful display of power? No.
Anything at all? Not that I can think of.

It is relevant. Do you know why?

Because you're attempting to draw conclusions from ONE video game, mainly JK:A, but you're completely ingoring the conclusions you can draw from another video game of that same mold and series. This is logical fallacy at its best.



Wikipedia is FAN entry. There is mention in games and SW universe SOURCES where it is believed Ragnos is the "greatest" Sith Lord. How this translates to power, we are unsure.



Did she fill Ragnos to "full power"?

If he did, how come he could only exist within Tavion's body? If you noticed, even after they disspelled Kun from Kyp's body, he could still maintain sentience and existence OUTSIDE of his body. I do not believe that Ragnos was at full spiritual power because the minute you defeat Tavion (who was already beaten at the time), he shriveled back into his sarcophagus.



So she is relatively powerful.

Thanks for making my point for me. Jaden could not have been that weak if she could defeat a rather powerful "Dark Jedi Master".

Also, Ragnos infused an already beaten up body, it's like trying to win a race while wearing plutonium plate armor, you try that.



Where is this mentioned in canon?

Ragnos' spirit is older than Kun's, his power has dissipated more. Kun absorbed the ENTIRE Massassi race. His spirit could live OUTSIDE of a human source, Ragnos had not replenished enough to do that. I think that's telling in and of itself.



I believe it was from the same source where they mentioned Naga Sadow, I'll have to check with this again.



The Sith and Jedi are clearly not the same. Also we have no idea that Yoda HAS reigned for specifically, 700 years.

We estimate that ballpark because he has been a Jedi for a long time, and has lived an extremely long duration. But being the LEADER of all Jedi for 700 years is an assumption.

You are ALSO assuming he has developed enough followers to make any opposition fruitless. This isn't necessarily true. A plot for a coup can, and historically HAS, taken place during ANY period of a regent's reign. To be honest, there is a certain quota or limiting factor for any amount of influence or supporters.

You're basing your argument on ASSUMPTION, not factual evidence.



But they didn't just join under him, did he? He had to deal with a schism between him and Ludo Kressh. Only after Ludo was deposed of, was he able to become the 10th Lord of the Sith.



Clearly these two points prove his influence over everyone else, if nothing else. Now last I checked, Sith aren't exactly the most loyal and abiding individuals, are they?



You go make a scepter like that, ok?

Way to ignore points presented towards you and act like you conquered them. If I see any more displays of logical fallacy, I don't even want to debate a point with you.

Clearly since he created a scepter that could absorb force from PLANETS, and no one else that we know of could, it certainly shows a level of ingenuity and ability.



And how long did this "empire" last?

Sidious made an "empire", but I don't see you saying he was the greatest Sith ever. Nice contradiction in terminus there. What is this? Some quid pro quo? Your logic appeals to authority, but doesn't actually present facts. STICK TO THE ARGUMENT, and stop using logical fallacy.



You don't KNOW this. You are ASSUMING this. and you should stop it, because to ASS-U-ME doesn't prove anything.



What do you mean "no" and "yes"?

Do you really want me to defeat each and every point for you?

Sure, I'll do just that:



Does it ever mention this? No.

So you can't just say, "Revan killed more people because we KNOW of what he's done."



Again, do you know of this? No.



He acknowledged that conquering the galaxy would have decimated his empire, sure, if you want to use this as "proof," be my guest.



Are you certain about this? No.



Again, you're ASSUMING the sith was grounded on one planet, this is also uncertain.



We don't know, obviously to be known as the "greatest sith lord ever" has to have done something.

Again, you do not know.



Again, you have no clue.

We're done here.

You've done nothing but level fanboyism and assumptions at me and you've provided no evidence.

Do we KNOW of Ragnos' abilities? No. But this just shows he's NOT APPLICABLE. That does not COUNT AGAINST HIM.

What you're doing is, "We don't know if he did it" so Revan must be more powerful. Logical Fallacy at its finest.

Are your two favorite words logical fallacy? I would say the same about you on several points. Firstly you continually bash me for assuming yet EVERYTHING about Ragnos' "power" all comes from assumption except for his spirit. If you're gonna be stupid like that then no I'm not gonna debate with you.

How does Desann or Luke have any importance with Ragnos' "power"? More logical fallacy from yourself.

I know Wikipedia isn't canon, the only reason I included that is because you continually said Ragnos is considered by many to be the greatest Sith and Revan isn't. Woo hoo. Like you said, greatest and most powerful are two different things and many do consider Revan to be the most powerful which was my point.

Now about Ragnos at full power: First, Kun's spirit was NEVER inside Kyp's body. Know what you're talking about next time if you're gonna be an ass like this. Next, who says Ragnos couldn't maintain his form outside of Tavion's body? It was simply a better way for him to fight. When Jaden destroyed the scepter, all the Force energy that had been drained, or infused by it was RELEASED. And yes this is a fact since later Luke says the cultists lost their power when the scepter was destroyed so naturally Ragnos wouldn't be able to do anything else.

I never said Jaden was weak. He/she is quite powerful actually. Who says Tavion was totally weak? She was on the ground, big deal. Jaden knocked her on her butt, so what? She still Force jumped backwards onto the statue and then Force jumped off. Not all that weak to me.

Your points are laughable at best especially with your superior attitude. If you want to debate, do it calmly, listen to other's posts, don't insult others, and don't think your the best when you clearly told me to stop assuming so much yet if you don't assume at all then Ragnos has no Force powers whatsoever, and can't beat anyone in a duel. Nice logical fallacy smart one.

I say logical fallacy because you USE logical fallacy. It's that simple.

You say you're "not gonna debate", when have you BEEN debating? You've been leveling a bunch of pointless assumptions.

There is a difference between DEDUCTION and ASSUMPTION, learn it.

An example of deduction would be: Marka Ragnos is a Sith Lord.
Sith Lords are badass motherf*ckers.
Therefore, Marka Ragnos is a badass motherf*cker.

An example of assumption, which you use is:

"I don't know anything about Marka Ragnos, therefore Revan is more powerful."

This is both logical fallacy and possibly incorrect.



I never said it had direct "importance" with Ragnos' power. The mentioning of the point doesn't mean logical fallacy. You should go look up what logical fallacy IS, and then come back. Go google it, until then, don't even try to act like you know what you're talking about.

You mentioned JK:A as a source, but then you discount another source of the same series. What you're doing is arbitrarily trying to decide what's "proof" and what's not.

More specifically, you mentioned used one moment in JK:A, where Jaden beats Ragnavion in battle, but then you discount when Desann beats NJO Luke because he "wasn't trying".

It doesn't have to pertain to Ragnos, in a general debate, when you discount one source and then count another source IN THE SAME MOULD, it's logical fallacy. Count both sources. Desann beat Luke in JK2:JO, Jaden beat Ragnavion in JK:A. It's that simple.



Then stop trying to pass your "point" as fact unless you HAVE facts to back it up.

This "I think Revan is more powerful because I know what he's done" is BS.



You're the one being an ass. If you want to hold a civil debate, learn the general rules about it. I've never once leveled a direct insult besides pointing out your logical fallacy, you are the one that gets flustered and starts with ad hominem.

And secondly, the cinematic SHOWS Ragnos moving directly into Tavion's battle, and upon defeat of Ragnavion, he moves right back into his sarcophagus. The mention of his destruction and the closing of his tomb follows the event.

Also, I'm mentioning that Kun's spirit could EXIST outside of a body, Ragnos' spirit was not as strong as you say he is, all charged up with force energy, in that he couldn't exist out of Tavion's body before flying back towards his Sarcophagus. The point isn't debatable, it's there in the book and juxtapose that to the cinematic, canon ending scene.



You make it sound like Jaden, being a simple Jedi Knight, would necessarily prove Exar was more powerful than Ragnos, because of his spirit. When you try to turn it into an argument, you're heavily implying Jaden is weak.



You mean the attitude you seem to have?

If my points are laughable, you have no point. You're WHOLE argument is this:

"I know more about Revan, so therefore he's more powerful than Ragnos."

I've told you before, and you should do well to learn: that's logical fallacy AND possibly incorrect.

What about that can't you understand?



Is it an assumption that Ragnos has force powers? Certainly. But it's DEDUCTION because of the situation he is in, being unquestioned Dark Lord of the Sith, it is HIGHLY PROBABLE he has it. In this case, it's not assumption, it's deduction. Like I said, you need to go back to Debate 101. Learn to hold a candle before you try to light up a room.

You say I am insulting, then you level insults at me; way to go hypocrisy. Like I said, I suggest you do a few things:

1) Go to google and look up logical fallacy. LEARN IT.
2) Take a lesson in debate, you're out of your league and if there was a moderator, you'd be screwed.
3) Check what you're typing. When you say I'm insulting and then level insults, it certainly doesn't show that you know what you're doing.
4) Don't say "logical fallacy" simply because you feel like it. If you want me to, I could point out what is the name of the specific rule of logical fallacy you broke; but judging by how you have been reacting, you'll just attempt to shrug it off.

1) Luke, Sidious, Yoda (since Lucasarts says so lol)
2) Marka Ragnos, Nihilus
3) Revan, Darth Traya
4) Exar Kun
5) Tulak Hord, Sion

The number ones are already explained, Marka Ragnos held enough power to scare the shit outve Ludo Kressh, Naga Sadow and countless other sith lords, Nihilus can drain the life out've anyone. Traya probably has more knowlage of the force then anyone. I guess everyone knows why revans there, same with Exar Kun. Tulak Hord was the best lightsaber master of all time (so says Traya), and many people have forgotten to include Sion, but being immortal is a pretty cool skill.

I've reevaluated my stance on determining power levels. It's tedious work, so it's easier to divide them into tiers.

Originally posted by Gideon
I've reevaluated my stance on determining power levels. It's tedious work, so it's easier to divide them into tiers.

And when you say tiers do you mean by jedi,sith,dark jedi,etc. or like there is a tier that could have oh lets say have mace,dooku and revan and below that is a tier with than one with Ulic,bastilla and the exile for example.

Jedi:
1. Luke clearly.
2. Ummm, Yoda I think.

Sith:
1. Sidious
2. Nihilus and Revan are probably perty close, as is Vader.

Jedi:luke

Dark Jedi: not entirely sure im leaning towards Jerec

Sith: Sidious but he better watch out they way Caedus is being built up by the legacy writers.

Um legend dont waste your time posting an argument considering your responding a 2 year old post

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Um legend dont waste your time posting an argument considering your responding a 2 year old post
Damn! I did not noticed that!

But instead of telling me what to do, ask those people who are ressurrecting very old threads to stop doing so.

Jedi: Either Yoda or Obi-Wan.
Sith: Obviously Sidious.

^That's for as far as I know, in other words the movies.

Originally posted by Darth Hord


Sith: Sidious but he better watch out they way Caedus is being built up by the legacy writers. He doesn't. Legacy itself made it clear luke is miles ahead of jacen in the force. He owned jacen with mere TK and i believe Sidious can do far worse.

No matter how overhyped caedus is, sidious > him. luke > him

Originally posted by Thiru
He doesn't. Legacy itself made it clear luke is miles ahead of jacen in the force. He owned jacen with mere TK and i believe Sidious can do far worse.

No matter how overhyped caedus is, sidious > him. luke > him

Im talking about how in every F-in legacy book jacen is becoming more and more powerful and gaining new powers we haven't seen from him like when he touched ben and disconnected him the force then touched him again he was reconnected. It would not surprise me if the authors continue this then sidious may have to watch. but i hope i doesn't happen cause i hate jacen.

Jacen sucks. He is like a video game character, as the time passes he gains powers from nowhere...

Jedi: Luke and Yoda.

Dark Jedi: Jerec, Joruus.

Sith: Sidious, Vader, Revan/Exar

Didn't know where I should have placed Gethzerion.

I dont really have a top 5 or 10, i mean, it's near impossible to come up with a grand list of the most powerful force-users (Believe me - i've tried it!) as much as some people enjoy comparing them, there is little we know about some of the EU force-users to even compare them to the movie force-users. I dunno, it seems kinda lame to rate a comic book character you know nothing about, above a movie character wouldnt you say?

Originally posted by Sith Dude
1) Luke, Sidious, Yoda (since Lucasarts says so lol)
2) Marka Ragnos, Nihilus
3) Revan, Darth Traya
4) Exar Kun
5) Tulak Hord, Sion

The number ones are already explained, Marka Ragnos held enough power to scare the shit outve Ludo Kressh, Naga Sadow and countless other sith lords, Nihilus can drain the life out've anyone. Traya probably has more knowlage of the force then anyone. I guess everyone knows why revans there, same with Exar Kun. Tulak Hord was the best lightsaber master of all time (so says Traya), and many people have forgotten to include Sion, but being immortal is a pretty cool skill. Wow, just horrible logic you have

Okay just one question. For determining power are you trying to judge who can kick whose ass or accomplishing the goals of the Sith and Jedi.

1) Revan/Luke- They each have an innate understanding of the force. They also each understand the light and dark sides of the force and can use both with extreme skill. In terms of lightsaber competence they are nearly in a class of their own. Revan kills/ defeats ridiculous amounts of jedi while Luke is capable of fighting hundreds of Vong Slayers when Kyp Duran fails to kill just one, defeating the lord of the Vong while being severely poisoned, defeating his father after a very short period of training time .

2) The Exile- I don't know about everyone else but the ability to master skills after taking just a glance at them is something terrifying indeed.

3)Darth Bane- Strong smart talented. This guy knew his stuff. Created the rule of Two. Had an armor that was constantly torturing him and used it to make himself stronger. Could create storms of foce lightning and waves of destruction to destroy the landscape around him. He was also said to be a master with a lightsaber.

4)Darth Plagueis- In a fight I am not sure of his capabilities but the ability to create life from the midichlorians around him is something to be feared. He was also the closest to obtaining eternal life out of any jedi or sith and perhaps had the greatest understanding of the dark side of the force or even the force in general than any other.

5) Tulak Hord- Said to be among the greatest swordsmen in history. He is honored and respected with a tomb on the sith Homeworld and when the Sith respect someone that much they definitely earned that respect.

I hold Marka Ragnos outside the list simply because there is not enough information about him to form a solid opinion about him. Without a doubt he could quite easily take the top of the list then again so could the leaders of the Infinite Empire when the Rakata were still capable of wielding the force.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Okay just one question. For determining power are you trying to judge who can kick whose ass or accomplishing the goals of the Sith and Jedi.

1) Revan/Luke- They each have an innate understanding of the force. They also each understand the light and dark sides of the force and can use both with extreme skill. In terms of lightsaber competence they are nearly in a class of their own. Revan kills/ defeats ridiculous amounts of jedi while Luke is capable of fighting hundreds of Vong Slayers when Kyp Duran fails to kill just one, defeating the lord of the Vong while being severely poisoned, defeating his father after a very short period of training time .

2) The Exile- I don't know about everyone else but the ability to master skills after taking just a glance at them is something terrifying indeed.

3)Darth Bane- Strong smart talented. This guy knew his stuff. Created the rule of Two. Had an armor that was constantly torturing him and used it to make himself stronger. Could create storms of foce lightning and waves of destruction to destroy the landscape around him. He was also said to be a master with a lightsaber.

4)Darth Plagueis- In a fight I am not sure of his capabilities but the ability to create life from the midichlorians around him is something to be feared. He was also the closest to obtaining eternal life out of any jedi or sith and perhaps had the greatest understanding of the dark side of the force or even the force in general than any other.

5) Tulak Hord- Said to be among the greatest swordsmen in history. He is honored and respected with a tomb on the sith Homeworld and when the Sith respect someone that much they definitely earned that respect.

I hold Marka Ragnos outside the list simply because there is not enough information about him to form a solid opinion about him. Without a doubt he could quite easily take the top of the list then again so could the leaders of the Infinite Empire when the Rakata were still capable of wielding the force. One of the few times a thread is bumped for legitimate reasons.

I'm gonna hazard a guess that you found this sight through a search of KotOR on Google, you're choices of #1, #2 and #5 say so.


Luke is right where he belongs in #1.

Revan and the Exile wouldn't be on this list. As far as we know there's nothing to use as a gauge of their prowess in use of the Force--everything revolves around the mechanics of gameplay.

Bane can be on there, though I don't think he merits 3rd place.

Plagueis is a contender for the single most ambiguous character in the entire Star Wars mythos. He doesn't belong anywhere on this list.

Same goes for Tulak Hord. He's quite the unknown. "Said to be" a remarkable swordsmen, and a tomb on Korriban is not an indication of power.

Marka Ragnos is another toughy. He's got the problematic title of "Unchallenged Century-Long Dark Lord," but his feats and abilities are scarcely mentioned.


You're place for Luke is fine, but members of this forum would advise you scrap the rest (sans Bane ) and refill the spots with the likes of Palpatine, Caedus, and...ugh, someone's gonna say Nihilus.

Great Vengeance will be along in a minute to defend Revan's rightful place as #2.

I don't know that Caedus deserves to make the top five at all, but meh. I drink the Haterade.

Caedus sucks balls, even nihilus(despite being and underdeveloped character) is better than him.

Nihilus for President!

Have him eat Osama Biden and John McClain at the same time.

Hmmm, any thing is an improvement.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Nihilus for President!

If he is, I'm putting my head up your ass.

Btw if its ok, tell me what you like about nihilus.

He's not black...

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
If he is, I'm putting my head up your ass.

Woah, man. Slow down. It's Gideon whose hole is large enough to accommodate your head. Mine? Nowhere near that size.

And uh, Nihilus is cool because he's a nihilist. I like his whole, "I don't give a ****, I do what I want" philosophy. And he's got the power to back it up. Plus, he's a tragic character because he has a very large flaw (being a slave to his own power).

Makes for a compelling villian. I hope the KOTOR comics will expand more on his relationship with Visas eventually. I found that human element very endearing.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Woah, man. Slow down. It's Gideon whose hole is large enough to accommodate your head. Mine? Nowhere near that size.
LOL chill man, was just joking. This is going to get into my profile.

Originally posted by Enyalus

And uh, Nihilus is cool because he's a nihilist. I like his whole, "I don't give a ****, I do what I want" philosophy. And he's got the power to back it up. Plus, he's a tragic character because he has a very large flaw (being a slave to his own power).

Makes for a compelling villian. I hope the KOTOR comics will expand more on his relationship with Visas eventually. I found that human element very endearing. Well, after thinking about it, nihilus does have a lot of potential to be a very compelling character, of how he became a slave to his own power or what he was before he hid behind the mask but balls to obsidian for not giving him a backstory.

Btw, what made you think he might be lucien? And do you think haazen could be sion?

I'll admit it, i used to be a hardcore fanwanking fanboy of nihilus and always tried to argue he >>>> sidious, but that has changed quite a bit since the last time.

Haazen is almost certainly Sion. I have no clue who Nihilus is, really. Zayne would make the most sense, with his "unique relationship with the Force"....but he's too soft to play Nihilus at the moment. Others think it might be Lucien, but he hasn't done anything to indicate it.

Not everyone has to turn into somebody, although Zayne -> Exile would make the most sense if they were willing to go for some retcons, which they clearly are.

Yay! One less powerful female Force user.

Conclusion? GL likes men.

Zayne will definitely not be the Exile, of this I'm sure.

The KOTOR campaign guide also confirmed the Exile's master? Vima Sunrider

Originally posted by Enyalus
Haazen is almost certainly Sion. I have no clue who Nihilus is, really. Zayne would make the most sense, with his "unique relationship with the Force"....but he's too soft to play Nihilus at the moment. Others think it might be Lucien, but he hasn't done anything to indicate it.

I thought nihilus was black

Also vaders the biggest racist crusader in star wars, he is a white guy pretending to be black in a black suit killing white people.

Anyways, i wouldn't bother if zayne from a weakling became one of the most powerful sith lords ever(nihilus). To me its more interesting and epic that way. Just like how arnold, from being one of the scrawniest kid, became a 7 time mr olympia bodybuilding champion.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I thought nihilus was black

Also vaders the biggest racist crusader in star wars, he is a white guy pretending to be black in a black suit killing white people.

Paradox!! *explodes*

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I thought nihilus was black

Also vaders the biggest racist crusader in star wars, he is a white guy pretending to be black in a black suit killing white people.

LMAO

I thought Nihilus and Sion were opposites..
Nihilus was like uber force pwnage and Sion was like the ultimate lightsaber combatant because of his immortal thing.

Nihilus seems pretty good with a saber, even in a vastly weakened and starved state.

Based on what exactly?

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
He's not black...
Well actually, he is he has dreads and was clearly supposed to be Jamaican ROFL!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Based on what exactly?

His final duel aboard the Ravager.

He's never lasted more than two seconds in that final duel with me, what do we base these saber skills off of?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He's never lasted more than two seconds in that final duel with me

I find this to be a gross exaggeration.

I agree.

And completely off-topic, the five-second sequence where Palpatine is dueling Kit Fisto and Mace Windu simultaneously is sped-up to be really fast, and is actually pretty sweet.

1- MARKA RAGNOS reigned for a hundred years no one raised a finger to him

2-Anakin Skywalker (pre being sliced) most midi clorine count ever

3-Darth Bane most paitent sith ever only eason lost other sith went against him and got themselves killed.

4- yoda (obviously)well what can i say

5-luke skywalker beat vader restored order to jedi and all that great stuff

6- Darth Sidious / Emperor Palpatine what else can be said about him

7-vader even though losing a lot of his power vader was still a beast.

8-DARTH NIHILUS consumes the Force from Force-sensitives in order to stay alive. He can even consume entire Force-sensitive planets.

9-Naga Sadow led the sith during there golden age must have been damn strong

10-TULAK HORD Perhaps the greatest Sith swordmaster ever. perhaps because lucas hasnt saidmuch about him but still to be rumored as that must have been beast and in KOTOR they say he was the best sith swordsman ever

KotoR's games need a novel or comic form. It'd be fun to see how powerful Revan is supposed to be, what the Exile can do, etc..

We know some of who they fight- Kreia, Sion, Nihilus, and so on, and those foes have enough feats to give some idea, but that only gives us a rough idea.

Originally posted by madmartigen
1- MARKA RAGNOS reigned for a hundred years no one raised a finger to him

2-Anakin Skywalker (pre being sliced) most midi clorine count ever

3-Darth Bane most paitent sith ever only eason lost other sith went against him and got themselves killed.

4- yoda (obviously)well what can i say

5-luke skywalker beat vader restored order to jedi and all that great stuff

6- Darth Sidious / Emperor Palpatine what else can be said about him

7-vader even though losing a lot of his power vader was still a beast.

8-DARTH NIHILUS consumes the Force from Force-sensitives in order to stay alive. He can even consume entire Force-sensitive planets.

9-Naga Sadow led the sith during there golden age must have been damn strong

10-TULAK HORD Perhaps the greatest Sith swordmaster ever. perhaps because lucas hasnt saidmuch about him but still to be rumored as that must have been beast and in KOTOR they say he was the best sith swordsman ever

uh, no.

1. Yoda was a jedi for many hundreds more
2. Mid Clorine count determines potential, not ability at said time. He had the same number of mid clorines when he was born, but obviously wasn't as powerful as he was now.
3. ??? What does that have to do with power?
4. He should be higher, probably 3.
5. He's number 1 by NJO.
6. Should be 2
7. Maybe
8. Perhaps above Vader and Anakin.
9. IDK much about him
10. IDK much about him

Originally posted by madmartigen
Naga Sadow led the sith during there golden age must have been damn strong
The "Sith Golden Age" is a massive misnomer. I am not even going to bother responding to the rest...

Originally posted by madmartigen
1- MARKA RAGNOS





Why is Anakin above Sidious, when even PT Vader was only 80% of him?

Originally posted by madmartigen
1- MARKA RAGNOS reigned for a hundred years no one raised a finger to him

2-Anakin Skywalker (pre being sliced) most midi clorine count ever

3-Darth Bane most paitent sith ever only eason lost other sith went against him and got themselves killed.

4- yoda (obviously)well what can i say

5-luke skywalker beat vader restored order to jedi and all that great stuff

6- Darth Sidious / Emperor Palpatine what else can be said about him

7-vader even though losing a lot of his power vader was still a beast.

8-DARTH NIHILUS consumes the Force from Force-sensitives in order to stay alive. He can even consume entire Force-sensitive planets.

9-Naga Sadow led the sith during there golden age must have been damn strong

10-TULAK HORD Perhaps the greatest Sith swordmaster ever. perhaps because lucas hasnt saidmuch about him but still to be rumored as that must have been beast and in KOTOR they say he was the best sith swordsman ever



You know, i have explained it all too many times. I can't do it again.

Less controversial top 4. After that, it is more debatable.
Also, Nihilus is a possibility. Just largely unknown.

At least you didn't throw Revan at us.



1. Luke
2. Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Bane

Why is Luke over Sidious?

Originally posted by Shoes
Why is Luke over Sidious? Due to the fact Luke is better than Sidious.

Originally posted by mattatom
Due to the fact Luke is better than Sidious.

this. I like to make lists in a sort of descending order of power. Its how i keep them straight.

Originally posted by truejedi
this. I like to make lists in a sort of descending order of power. Its how i keep them straight. Why do I have the annoying feeling Shoes will be in here arguing about that?

Originally posted by truejedi
this. I like to make lists in a sort of descending order of power. Its how i keep them straight.

That my friend, is not descending order of power.

Originally posted by Shoes
That my friend, is not descending order of power.

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

mattatom
Due to the fact Luke is better than Sidious.

Careful. You never know when some jerk will come along and ask for proof!

Prove Luke > Sidious.

Prove he isn't. You are the one who made the assertation I was wrong.

You're the one claiming superiority without anything to back it up.

TJ
Prove he isn't. You are the one who made the assertation I was wrong.

We might have to revoke your membership to the Logic Club, TJ. You've been on a series of debating trainwrecks lately. Don't exacerbate it by agreeing to a contention and, when asked for proof, demand your opponent disprove your case.

Originally posted by Gideon
We might have to revoke your membership to the Logic Club, TJ. You've been on a series of debating trainwrecks lately. Don't exacerbate it by agreeing to a contention and, when asked for proof, demand your opponent disprove your case.
As I said, I don't give a damn. I refuse to have the Luke/Sidious debate again. Especially with someone I am positive is a sock.
We have done it a trillion times, and no one has proven anything.

The best we can say is we have dissenting opinions on the subject.

Originally posted by truejedi
As I said, I don't give a damn. I refuse to have the Luke/Sidious debate again. Especially with someone I am positive is a sock.
We have done it a trillion times, and no one has proven anything.

The best we can say is we have dissenting opinions on the subject.

I'm not Ivalice.

And we will do this.

Not while you are claiming Kenobi did better against Jango than Mace did, we won't.

And you may not be Ivalice, but you are someone. I've a guess that came to me just a few minutes ago, but i'll let it ride for now.

TJ
As I said, I don't give a damn.

We're back to square one on this. I'm not sure what recent tragedy or head trauma you've suffered in your life recently, but the "I don't give a damn" line loses all of its luster when the person claiming not to care continues to devote his time to discussing the issue.



Seems like you want to.



Who is he, then? Nebaris?



We have done it a trillion times, yes. Whether or not anyone has proven anything depends entirely on your vision (of the literal variety).



Is that the best? Really?

He really does seem familiar. But maybe all trolls sound alike over time.

Originally posted by Gideon
We're back to square one on this. I'm not sure what recent tragedy or head trauma you've suffered in your life recently, but the "I don't give a damn" line loses all of its luster when the person claiming not to care continues to devote his time to discussing the issue.


Prove where I have been discussing it. Besides, it was a quote from Gone with the Wind. That was the entire point. I don't give a damn about Shoes opinion. Way to be cultured Gideon.



Nope, indeed you are the one trying to start a discussion on it. Or rather shoes was. And I refuse.




I don't think so. Neb is smarter. I'm not sure. Someone's foil. No one actually believes the things this guy believes. I have a theory.




I take it back, we have proven to ourselves that we are correct. That is what discussing from dissenting viewpoints usually does, after all.




Its preferable to the never-ending thread option, yes.

I'm curious how the line being from Gone With the Wind has any bearing on its application in this thread...

Me not giving a damn about SocksShoes opinion?

if he is a sock, i think hes //S\\ S liked to troll people on purpose, which shoes likes to do as well.

Originally posted by truejedi
Not while you are claiming Kenobi did better against Jango than Mace did, we won't.

Oh my god you are so stupid.

Obi-Wan > Jango with a ship
Mace > Jango

I don't see any problem.



Right. I give you irrefutable evidence that Jango can dismantle Mara in a heartbeat, and you call me crazy. You're crazy.



You mean you ref-lose.

Originally posted by Shoes

Right. I give you irrefutable evidence that Jango can dismantle Mara in a heartbeat,


You haven't. You've given your opponent on why you think Jango beats Mara, using evidence and strings of logic most of the rest of us think is pretty darn shaky.

I haven't read the whole thread, but Shoes hasn't said anything particularly dumb this page.

Would somebody please condescend to make a post close enough to the topic that I can figure out what's going on? You don't even have to put in a response. Just quickquote me the post that is supposed to be dumb and I promise to read it at some point.

Its stemming from his claim that Jango was almost on the same level as Mace. (Vs. Mara vs. Jango)

I for one refuse to enter into a Luke/Sidious discussion with someone who claimed Obi-Wan did better against Jango than Mace did.

I think that's all. No big deal.

Um... he did?

At least, it isn't completely baseless to make the claim. It would be a really difficult position, but with work could be done.

I retracted that claim, as I realized that Jango wasn't trying to attack, he was trying to escape.

If Jango did try to kill him, he indeed failed to do so, with a ship, whereas Mace had tremendous difficulty with him alone.

"Tremendous" difficulty it says. Jango was trying to kill Mace and had "tremendous" difficulty. Mace smirks and kills him. Literally.

Mace is incapable of smirking.

ulost

Originally posted by Exar Fett
They're all great jedi and sith, but surely there's a place in that list for Exar Kun...he was one bad mofo. Lets not forget the Sith Wars. And didn't he almost kill Luke Skywalker? I forget which book it's in but he comes pretty close doesn't he Absolutly, nobody should forget about Exar Kun. He's at least top two Sith of all time and may even top Sidious himself.

""Exar was an exceptional duelling master.
He also was able to freeze the entire (which had jedi that were in the building) with one spell and then rescue his apprentice and kill an extremely powerful jedi master and nobody could do a thing about it. This jedi master was also very similar to Yoda and been training for 600 years, also remember that the jedi master was training during the height or war in the republic so he knew battle better than Yoda did.
The jedi order also sent thousands of jedi to kill Exar. He was able to repel all of them long enough to preserve his spirit for thousands of years.

And Exar did study alot, Vodo-Baas says that Exar is the most powerful student he has ever trained and the most powerful force user of that time, and Vodo was similar to Yoda, he trained lots of jedi over a long period of time, and if Exar was the best, that means something.

Exar also studied alot, he was fascinated by the sith teachings in Vodo's holocron. Exar also learned under the ancient sith, like Freedon Nadd and Marka Ragnos, he would still be very smart. It is also worth noting that the ancient sith said that Exar would be the one to bring about the golden age of the sith and said that he was the Dark Lord of the Sith, over Ulic-Qel Droma.

Exar Kun was also able to destroy the entire massassani race, quite a feat. He drained their life force and used it to prolong his life.

His apprentice, Ulic, was a powerful jedi and dueller in his own right, but Exar was his unquestioned master and the ancient sith said that Kun would be the dark lord, not Ulic, this means that Kun is stronger than Ulic was.

He was also able to hide as a sith in the middle of the jedi stronghold (Ossus) and recruit jedi to become sith, without the jedi even knowing what he was doing, that's got to take some pretty impreesive power. He decived the best jedi in the order, took sith stuff and recruited new allies from the midst of the jedi ranks, lied to the jedi masters, and they couldn't even tell it was going on! Also, this planet (and its sun) were later blown up by Kun so anybody after him would have no knowledge of those things that Exar knew.

Also, he invented his own lightsaber, Exar was the person who invented the double blade lightsaber. He also designed his own unique style of duelling, something that he never tought to anyone and was lost after his defeat. So nobody other than him and Ulic had any idea what to expect from him (everyone else he faced ended up dead)

He is also an amazing dueller, after he decided to try against Vodo (a lightsaber master), Vodo died in around 10 seconds, before that Kun was just toying with him. Toying with him! In the middle of the senate chamber on the same planet as the jedi temple, he could still toy with one of the best duellers in the jedi order and win hands down.

Kun also learned loads of stuff from Ossus, which was later destroyed by him so anyone after him couldn't have learned anything from it, he also used sith holocrons and had the private notes of Naga Sadow, another sith who could blow up a sun. Naga was also a dark lord of the sith from 1000 years before Exar and was Marka Ragnos apprentice and had an amazing grasp of the dark side, Exar learned it all.
Kun was able to walk into the heart of the republic senate, freeze them all, kill their leader and a jedi master, and walk out, nobody could do a thing. This is in the heart of the jedi order! He was also able to kill a beast which is probably very similar to a terentek, or better, with very few problems. Exar was also able to walk into another jedi stronghold (Ossus), kill more jedi, steal the artifacts, and walk out again, unharmed. He was also able to destroy Freedon Nadd with no problems.

Think about how he died, he was faced against 10 000 jedi, and the republic fleet. Under those circumstances, anyone would have died. Exar died sure, but he was able to hold the entire fleet off with the force until he was able to figure out a plan to keep himself alive. Exar was able to kill off an entire race, numbering thousands, to keep himself alive, sure he was killed 4000 years later, but it still took 14 jedi, 12 padawans, Luke and Kuns old master to kill him. Think about it, 2 lightsabers, 12 padawans/knights, 2 jedi masters (including one of the most powerful jedi ever; Luke and the old version of Yoda, Vodo-Baas, he trained lots of jedi, for some reason I think of him like an old Yoda), to kill off Kun's 4000 year old ionized air particles! He must have been near godlike when he was alive.

When Kun walked, the ground shook underneath him from the shear power of the dark side emanating from his body.

Exar did invent his own style of lightsaber combat, the double blade, also, his double blade was different than any other double blade. He was able to move it faster and aim more than with other double blades. Also, since few people had never seen a double bladed sabre, it would throw them off. He can move his lightsaber so quickly that almost anyone he faced would be sliced before he knew what was going on.

Exar wore armor with a cortosis weave in it, allowing him to recieve hits from a lightsaber without doing him damage.

He was also a powerful sith alchemist and created several beasts.""

Exar Kun FTW

Apparently wearing armor and making your own lightsaber are qualifications for UNBELIEVABLE power.

Someone wanna school this guy?

Jaden Korr Made his own lightsaber and killed Ragnos.

Jaden Korr==Kun.

Ergo Jaden==Sidious, if not >Sidious.

thats a post worthy of being on -b

just... the most random feat listing ever

I think he just read Kun's entry on Wookieepedia and listed it all off here.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Apparently wearing armor and making your own lightsaber are qualifications for UNBELIEVABLE power.

Someone wanna school this guy? "Someone wanna school this guy?" Really...?

Anyways...You got me on two points I make, how about the other twenty stated? It's the collection, both force and non-force qualifications, that make Exar Kun a badass.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I think he just read Kun's entry on Wookieepedia and listed it all off here.Yes pretty much for the most part. It's why I put quotations on it an made it completely apparent....because I knew people like you would call it out. You'll have to excuse me though because not all of it is necessarily from a pedia, and is from other research I did over the net . To be completely honest I just copy/paste'd it from an old post I did back in the day. But anyways, regardless of what you think of the information, it is as a whole a pretty huge feat worthy of putting him over Sidious

Originally posted by IndridCold
it is as a whole a pretty huge feat worthy of putting him over Sidious

no its not. 90% of the "feats" within your laundry list of impressive acts is wanking performed by other characters around him (i.e. vodo), and fighting people who dont have any substantiated powers (i.e. vodo, ulic, some massasi).