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just a question thats been bugging me.
i wasnt sure where to post this, so i'll post it here.
if this topic has already been posted, please merge.

ok, anakin loved padme and thus feared losing her.
that fear led to his turn to the darkside...point proven.
and thats why the jedi are forbidden from marrage or realations.

now lets move on to the OT:

at the end of RotJ we find out that leah is strong with the force,
and will be trained by her brother to be a jedi knight. a no-brainer.

so....does that mean she has to dump han solo?

and on a side not:

yoda: the force runs strong in your family...pass on what you have learned

later in yoda's last dying words, he tells luke there is another skywalker. a separate statement from "pass on..." i always thought that the "pass on" comment was encouragement for luke to have children and maintain his bloodline. anyone else translate it the same as me?

have the rules changed? or is leah setting herself up for a turn to the darkside?

Note from EU, but just what I think will happen. I think when Luke reforms the order he kinda loosens the reigns.

Originally posted by PVS
just a question thats been bugging me.
i wasnt sure where to post this, so i'll post it here.
if this topic has already been posted, please merge.

ok, anakin loved padme and thus feared losing her.
that fear led to his turn to the darkside...point proven.
and thats why the jedi are forbidden from marrage or realations.

now lets move on to the OT:

at the end of RotJ we find out that leah is strong with the force,
and will be trained by her brother to be a jedi knight. a no-brainer.

so....does that mean she has to dump han solo?

and on a side not:

yoda: the force runs strong in your family...pass on what you have learned

later in yoda's last dying words, he tells luke there is another skywalker. a separate statement from "pass on..." i always thought that the "pass on" comment was encouragement for luke to have children and maintain his bloodline. anyone else translate it the same as me?

have the rules changed? or is leah setting herself up for a turn to the darkside?

There are other places to post this PVS

And I would hope that after the events of the entire saga that they would learn that love is not a BAD thing... I always thought (and no I dont read EU) that after ROTJ Luke would begin training Jedi again, only this time learning to incorporate all of ones feelings, not denying things but embracing them. Seeing as how the other way didnt work out so well with teh Emporer & all.. its gotta be worth a shot

Originally posted by PVS


yoda: the force runs strong in your family...pass on what you have learned




I though Yoda said in EP VI:

"The force runs strong in your family, that is all what you have learned"

No - it is "pass on what you have learned".

And love is not forbidden.
Attachement is forbidden within the Jedi order.
Not being willing to let go of the things that you do love.

Don't forget that the Jedi order is missing the point in the PT, only QGJ gets things right, and Yoda and Obi eventually learn what he has learned.
QGJ is far more caring and understanding.
He has time for people.

With Luke they find a happy medium, he is allowed to have feelings but is taught to understand them and deal with them, rather than just being warned away from them.
He takes an intuitive path.

maybe the jedi teachings evolve a bit, when it starts to be ok to have attachments, as long as you are willing to accept the fact that you may lose them one day

Good point Robin Darkside and mossman in the first movies no one listens or pay attention to peoples feelings and that was the down fall if you don't pay attetion to what people feel or say then it will eventually come back to haunt you :/

Originally posted by mossman
No - it is "pass on what you have learned".

And love is not forbidden.
Attachement is forbidden within the Jedi order.
Not being willing to let go of the things that you do love.

Don't forget that the Jedi order is missing the point in the PT, only QGJ gets things right, and Yoda and Obi eventually learn what he has learned.
QGJ is far more caring and understanding.
He has time for people.

With Luke they find a happy medium, he is allowed to have feelings but is taught to understand them and deal with them, rather than just being warned away from them.
He takes an intuitive path.

mossman's right. it all goes back to qui-gon.

Qui-gon rocks for a dead guy probile Anikan would have never gone to the darkside if he was still alive he defied the council if you ask me he is council he actually understands and knows more than them

yeah, Qui Gon is awesome, always defying the council, where the coucil isn;t perfect, he does what he must.

Originally posted by mossman
No - it is "pass on what you have learned".

And love is not forbidden.
Attachement is forbidden within the Jedi order.
Not being willing to let go of the things that you do love.

Don't forget that the Jedi order is missing the point in the PT, only QGJ gets things right, and Yoda and Obi eventually learn what he has learned.
QGJ is far more caring and understanding.
He has time for people.

With Luke they find a happy medium, he is allowed to have feelings but is taught to understand them and deal with them, rather than just being warned away from them.
He takes an intuitive path.

BINGO! I agree completely.

no no no...see what yoda is trying to say to anakin is that since attachment is forbidden, he should get naughty with padme, then dump her !






ill go home now

bwuhahaha!!....dats funny.....i found the council very annoying...hell, if i was in anakins position, i'd be pissed too...

Originally posted by Mist
no no no...see what yoda is trying to say to anakin is that since attachment is forbidden, he should get naughty with padme, then dump her !

ill go home now


well, if you put it that way, its all good

Although, wouldn;t you want to keep Padme for awile

attachment is forbidden.....however on and off sex should be quite ok

Originally posted by Mist
attachment is forbidden.....however on and off sex should be quite ok

agreed

Originally posted by mossman

Don't forget that the Jedi order is missing the point in the PT, only QGJ gets things right, and Yoda and Obi eventually learn what he has learned.
QGJ is far more caring and understanding.
He has time for people.

With Luke they find a happy medium, he is allowed to have feelings but is taught to understand them and deal with them, rather than just being warned away from them.
He takes an intuitive path.

This is 100% correct, and I would add that Qui-Gon was not only caring but also most in tune with the force of all the Jedi in the PT times, and what he taught Yoda and Obi-Wan was the will of the force, not the will of the Jedi order.

Also, if you watch the PT and the OT, you will see a definite distinction between the two in that Yoda and Obi-Wan pay much more attention to emotion in the OT than anyone does in the PT.

Originally posted by mossman
No - it is "pass on what you have learned".

And love is not forbidden.
Attachement is forbidden within the Jedi order.
Not being willing to let go of the things that you do love.

Don't forget that the Jedi order is missing the point in the PT, only QGJ gets things right, and Yoda and Obi eventually learn what he has learned.
QGJ is far more caring and understanding.
He has time for people.

With Luke they find a happy medium, he is allowed to have feelings but is taught to understand them and deal with them, rather than just being warned away from them.
He takes an intuitive path.

but isnt that too much of a leap of faith?
granted, luke was able to handle the death of beru and owen in true jedi fashion, so it seemed. but who had an influence in that? surely not the jedi.
luke was strong enough (however immature and whiney) to let go and not let it turn him crazy, but how can we know that EVERYONE will be able to let go of the ones they love? and keep in mind that luke DID have attachment to his sister and his friends, and never let go of it. it made him skip the rest of his training in ep5 and almost turned him in ep6.

and as far as quigon, he and the jedi were wrong in taking anakin away from his mother at such an early age, because he was already attached. anakin's turn was not a result of following the jedi code, but by breaking its rules. quigon was too impulsive to realise what he was getting anakin into, refusing to see the danger of his actions. yoda was RIGHT to not want him to be trained.
at least they should have allowed him to grow up on tattooine, and mature enough to handle loss, as was the case with luke.

...and maybe that's what they learned from anakin's fall. maybe thats why they waited so long to train luke. maybe the rules did change, and love/marriage is accepted...but the risk of turning to the dark side is much greater, since luke and leah are not detached as was the case with the old order...and even if they can handle the power/responsibility, who says all others who are trained will have the same capacity?

i just wish they explained that a bit, since its such a key element in the way the entire story unfolds.

Originally posted by PVS
but isnt that too much of a leap of faith?
granted, luke was able to handle the death of beru and owen in true jedi fashion, so it seemed. but who had an influence in that? surely not the jedi.

But that was my point - it was Luke's own heart which was the key.
Every part of him which was not "Jedi" was part of his success, and what made him unique.
Here we see a Jedi order which takes children from their parents before they have even experienced anything "real" and programmes them what is right and wrong.
And that order, ultimately, falls apart because they have been shut out from what is happening in the real world for generations.

"Jedi training, the sole source of self-discipline is not." - Yoda

Ani had lived a bit before he started training.
Luke had lived a bit before he started training.
Ani faced certain situations and made the wrong choices.
Luke faced the same situations and made the right choices.

Those choices were not, ultimately, about things exclusive to the Jedi and the Sith, they were about basic human emotions.

Originally posted by PVS
luke was strong enough (however immature and whiney) to let go and not let it turn him crazy, but how can we know that EVERYONE will be able to let go of the ones they love? and keep in mind that luke DID have attachment to his sister and his friends, and never let go of it. it made him skip the rest of his training in ep5 and almost turned him in ep6.

But, again, the difference was Luke was allowed to follow his own path to a certain degree.
I think the lesson at the Dagobah cave is a great example.
Yoda could have told Luke exactly what the future was going to throw at him.
Told him not to do this - to do that etc.
But instead, Luke is given an experience.
The best teacher.
Ani got nothing like that - he was just told, scalded, instructed.

I'm not saying the difference is in Luke.
The difference is in how Yoda and Obi handle him, what they let him do.

TPM - "Master Yoda told me to be mindful of the future."
ESB - "Hard to say. Always in motion the future... This one a long time have I watched. Never his mind on where he was. What eh was doing."

There is a definite change of philosphy for the Jedi come the OT.

Originally posted by PVS
and as far as quigon, he and the jedi were wrong in taking anakin away from his mother at such an early age, because he was already attached.

That's kind of what I'm saying.
The Jedi's lesson is that they are not the be all and end all.
There are more important things.
I'm not saying QGJ was right to take Ani away, but if he had taken Ani away and brought him to a Jedi Order which was ready for him, that could handle real emotions, maybe things would not have turned the way they did.
QGJ was right to focus on the living force.
The moment.

Originally posted by PVS
ankin's turn was not a result of following the jedi code, but by breaking its rules.

"My failure, this was." - Yoda, ROTS (novelization)
"Into exile I must go. Failed, I have." - Yoda, ROTS

Originally posted by PVS
quigon was too impulsive to realise what he was getting anakin into, refusing to see the danger of his actions. yoda was RIGHT to not want him to be trained.

I agree.
And Yoda makes the same decision for Luke and Leia.
To distance them from Jedi training.
Because there are more important lessons to be learned.

I put this in another thread, but I will try to remember what I said exactly....

Yoda was not right to not want him trained. Anakin was one of two things, depending on what you believe, and it doesn't matter which: a creation of Plagiues/Palpatine who would have been picked up and trained by Palpatine, or a random creation of the force who would have been lost forever on Tatooine and never learned how to use the force.

If he was a creation of the Sith and he was not trained, he would have been trained by Sidious from a young age until he was far more powerful than we ever see him in any of the films, would have accepted the Dark Side completely, and together with Sidious would have destroyed the Jedi Order and ruled the galaxy with no hope (ie.e, Luke) of ever being defeated.

If he was a random offshoot left on Tatooine, then Sidious, with his clone army and Dooku at his side, would have destroyed the Jedi and ruled the galaxy (contrary to what Obi-Wan tells Luke, it is the clone army that dooms the Jedi; Anakin's role in the purge is relatively very, very minor), with again no hope (i.e., Luke) of ever being defeated.

It is fallacious to say that Anakin should have been allowed to mature more so as to be able to handle loss; a coarse analysis of the situation would lead to the conclusion that the problem was the opposite, as Jedi are normally trained from MUCH younger ages than Anakin so as they avoid forming any attachment to begin with. In this view, the problem would be that Anakin was too old, and attachment only grows with time. Maturity has little to do with it as a 40 year old man has just as much difficulty accepting the death of a parent as does a 14 year old boy. The flaw is manifested in that Jedi are able to be turned to the dark side, such as Dooku.

A more fine assesment leads to similar but deeper conclusions. Though the process of training Jedi from very young ages worked well, it was flawed. The goal of this process was to avoid the formation of attachment in the first place, and to train the Jedi to ignore emotion, much like a Vulcan. However, this is an inherently flawed premise, as it ignores the very nature of those being trained, which is a nature of emotion. By ignoring emotion and training so as to avoid it completely, this leaves the trainee incapable of handling emotion should it arise. It puts most Jedi at risk to end up like much like Data in Star Trek Generations (sorry they just fit lol), completely overcome and unable to handle them. The logic behind this is roughly equivalent to neglecting to train a student driver to operate in the snow because it is best not to do so.

Qui-Gon was a caring man. This was passed on to Yoda and Obi-Wan between ROTS and ANH, and they follow this in training Luke. Luke is trained to understand his feelings and react appropriately, not to ignore them and act as though they do not exist. The Jedi Order has been compared to Christianity (as well as Buddhism however it is not applicable here) many times. A Christian would tell you that the first step toward evil is to treat it as thought it does not exist. Christians are trained about the temptations of evil from young ages. They are not taught in the manner of Barney the Dinosaur (i.e., the world is happy happy jolly and everyone likes you). With this background, they are able to confront and resist evil. Luke is able to resist because he has learned to, which is one of the bigger errors the Jedi made prior to the rise of Sidious. Before this, young Jedi seem not to have been taught of the dark side; it is known to exist but is not discussed and is taboo. This is a receipe for disaster.

Everyone can let go of the ones they love because in the New Jedi Order, they are prepared. There trainers prepare them, and they themselves mentally prepare themselves from the beginning of their training to let go if it should be necessary. In PT times, Jedi are never allowed to see that there is anything to let go of, thus leaving them very vulnerable. In this context, any Jedi would become intoxicated with the very first sign of love or attachment, imbibed so much with it that it would be virtually impossible to give it up when the time comes.

The first time a serious romantic relationship ends, a person is hit much, much worse than in succesive instances, because he or she has never experienced it before. Later occurences are less traumatic becuase the individual has gained an understanding of the emotional spectrum that is contextual to the situation. Luke is able to resist, as would other New Order Jedi, because in part he has spent his entire life saying goodbye and has learned to handle it. He lost Beru and Owen, all of his friends to the academy, Biggs ultimately to death, and likely many rebel friends. On top of all of this, he lost Obi-Wan, whom he had begun to take as a father, which he had never had, and eventually found his father only to lose him to a fate worse than death as he clung for life on the bottom of the Cloud City. He "was used to it," and by allowing Jedi to have attachment throughout life and guiding and training them in controlling and understanding (as opposed to ignoring) emotion, they too would gain the proper perspective, strength, and "spiritual" ground with which to do so.

Sorry, QGJ had many good qualities, but to say he is right and all the Jedi are wrong is to totally misread the films. GL makes it very clear that QGJ is a reckless man who takes dangerous decisions.

As mentioned, attachment is forbidden and remains forbidden. This is IN NO WAY A BAD THING. GL clearly has made this out to be a very bad thing indeed- there can be no question of Luke 'loosening' that rule.

'Pass on what you have learned' I always took to mean to a new generation of Jedi, not to his own bloodline, which at the end of ROTJ has no prospect of existing.

And if Leia wants to become a Jedi- then yes, she would have to let go of her feelings for Han. Too dangerous for a Jedi.

People keep saying this "The Jedi got it wrong, the rules about not marrying etc. are bad'. Wrong wrong wrong Those rules are vital!


"A more fine assesment leads to similar but deeper conclusions. Though the process of training Jedi from very young ages worked well, it was flawed. The goal of this process was to avoid the formation of attachment in the first place, and to train the Jedi to ignore emotion, much like a Vulcan. However, this is an inherently flawed premise, as it ignores the very nature of those being trained, which is a nature of emotion. By ignoring emotion and training so as to avoid it completely, this leaves the trainee incapable of handling emotion should it arise. It puts most Jedi at risk to end up like much like Data in Star Trek Generations (sorry they just fit lol), completely overcome and unable to handle them. The logic behind this is roughly equivalent to neglecting to train a student driver to operate in the snow because it is best not to do so. "

Gibberish! The Jedi are absolutely fine at it! It's only the incredibly rare ones that are the problem, and if Anakin hadn't been trained so late there would have been no problem there either!

I can't believe how utterly wrong that idea is. Not a single Jedi is taught to 'ignore' emotion. They are merely given the importance of no forming attachments. Plnety of them have emotions, and make sure they are the master of them not the other way around- not closer to being Vulcan, either. They can handle emotions just fine- they are trained to!

It's not as if GL made this complex. I don't understand why people have such a hard time with this simple concept.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sorry, QGJ had many good qualities, but to say he is right and all the Jedi are wrong is to totally misread the films. GL makes it very clear that QGJ is a reckless man who takes dangerous decisions.

He does not make this clear. He makes it clear that the Jedi order believes this about him. This does NOT make it so. The fact that GL makes Qui-Gon Yoda's master is all the evidence anyone should need that he is a better (though less powerful) Jedi than all the rest. As we see so often in our real world, it is most often those who are most correct whom are dubbed as dangerous and reckless.




The EU would disagree entirely with this, though that is a side note at best. Insofar as the films are concerned, I think it is very difficult to see this as accurate given the obvious differences between the training shown in the PT and the OT. In OT training emotion is clearly not forbidden, whereas in PT it is. This is the most accurate thing Palpatine tells Anakin: the Jedi have become FAR too dogmatic.




They are trained only, and I stress ONLY, in Dogma. They are trained by a rulebook. They are taught to respond to each situation in a preplanned, forumlaic way. This leaves an incredible problem for any Jedi whom encounters a situation which has not been planned for in Jedi training. This is why Yoda tells Luke, "Jedi training, the sole source of self-discipline is not." In the PT the Jedi teach exactly that Jedi training is the sole source of all good behavior for a Jedi. To hear this in PT times would be unheard of!

Originally posted by Ushgarak
'Pass on what you have learned' I always took to mean to a new generation of Jedi, not to his own bloodline, which at the end of ROTJ has no prospect of existing.

And if Leia wants to become a Jedi- then yes, she would have to let go of her feelings for Han. Too dangerous for a Jedi.

...but thats the thing. the end of RotJ could not possibly go further in outlining the prospect of leah marrying han. they WILL marry, thats how it ends.

as far as luke, i agree, there is no prospect of him procreating other than the way i translate what yoda said. he said these two sentences as one whole statement: "the force runs strong in your family...pass on what you have learned." that can only mean 1 of 2 things:

-have kids and train them
-train leah

im willing to accept that he might have meant the latter, but certainly he instructs luke to teach someone of his own bloodline, be it leah or otherwise.

*bump* this is still bugging me....any thoughts?

Someone wanna get me up to speed on the debate? That's a helluva lot of reading...

As for the line "the force runs strong in your family...pass on what you have learned", I'd say he simply meant to teach Leia...

Just reading snippets here and there... I don't think the idea is that Leia would have to give up Han if she wanted to become a Jedi. Isn't that the whole point in the OT? Discovering that disregarding love is not the answer... that in fact the answer lies in the complete opposite? After all, this is what turns Anakin back to the light side... His love for his son.

Very well put Lazer

Nope, she doesn't have to dump Han. Because Luke Skywalker marries Mara Jade.

thats EU crap

Hmm.....its a New Jedi Order so they can make new rules.......I guess

Originally posted by PVS
thats EU crap
But so is this thread. Because Luke didn't train Leia in RoTJ. Or any other Star Wars movie that's out. "There's your sign"...nvm.

it was implied....wtf is so difficult to understand?

yoda"pass on what you have learned"

luke"soon you'll learn to use it as i have"

therefor, the idea that leia will become a jedi is NOT eu...get it?

Sure it is. Because she becomes a Jedi in EU.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Sure it is. Because she becomes a Jedi in EU.
Exactley!

Originally posted by Captain REX
Sure it is. Because she becomes a Jedi in EU.

funny, but such irrelevancy will be taken as truth from others (see above post).

what happens in EU is inconsequential to the saga. its strongly implied by yoda and luke that leia will become a jedi---cannon. it is also strongly implied that han and leia will remain together, thus them kissing once han discovers that leia is not only faithful to him, but is also an incestuous pervert.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do


Discovering that disregarding love is not the answer... that in fact the answer lies in the complete opposite? After all, this is what turns Anakin back to the light side... His love for his son.

EXACTLY!! Lucas said as much in LOTS of interviews for ROTS.. I specifically remember tons of fanboys squirming in their seats over it.....

To start out with Luke was never taught all the princilpes of being a Jedi so he doesn't know. That's why he gets married.

he didnt get married. ffs thats eu...

and i agree with DeVi| D0do as well.
to think that the inevitable coarse of the story is that leia dumps han and
both skywalkers die with no offspring is ludicrous imho.

anakin fell because his attachment was of an unhealthy nature. he was not able to let go and accept whatever would come to pass. he tried to control the fate of those around him in order to preserve them, while destroying what they live for. that was his own mistake, not a product of love...but greed.

i wouldn't say love is forbidden. it's how the characters love. obi-wan loved anakin...but that didn't stop him from slicing up the lil' prick. obi-wan is able to accept that he must defeat him, love be damned. but there still is love there. the jedi just have to learn to let go when the time comes. better to have loved and lost...and all that crap.

not that kinda love dude

unless there is far more to the story of anakin and obiwan that we dont know...
and i wouldnt wanna know...

har har. that's not what i meant. that's just the kinda love you got on yer mind.

Makes you think......wouldnt anakin go through the same for obi-wan
(not in a gay way for those of you with sick minds)

HOLY SH!T PVS opened a thread in here?????????????? I applaud you buddy! mwah1

Originally posted by mysterio69
i wouldn't say love is forbidden. it's how the characters love. obi-wan loved anakin...but that didn't stop him from slicing up the lil' prick. obi-wan is able to accept that he must defeat him, love be damned. but there still is love there. the jedi just have to learn to let go when the time comes. better to have loved and lost...and all that crap.
Yes but don't you think it was Obi-Wan's love for Anakin that stopped Obi-Wan from finishing him off? I don't think he could bear watching his 'brother' burn to death.


I don't know if this has been discussed here, but was Obi-Wan not breaking the Jedi Code also by having feeling for Anakin? It is said the unconditional love is essential to a Jedi's life, but the love you feel for a 'brother' (as Obi-Wan sees him) is much more than an unconditional love.

Originally posted by PVS
he was not able to let go and accept whatever would come to pass. he tried to control the fate of those around him in order to preserve them, while destroying what they live for. that was his own mistake, not a product of love...but greed.
Which is the lesson Luke learns when he too tries to control the fate of his friends... He too was not able to 'let go and accept whatever would come to pass'. And in the end it was the ones he was trying to save who had to save him.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
Yes but don't you think it was Obi-Wan's love for Anakin that stopped Obi-Wan from finishing him off? I don't think he could bear watching his 'brother' burn to death.


The book states that there were two reasons, one is that Obi-Wan sees Palpatines shuttle approaching and the other is that he decided to leave Anakins fate to the will of the force.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sorry, QGJ had many good qualities, but to say he is right and all the Jedi are wrong is to totally misread the films. GL makes it very clear that QGJ is a reckless man who takes dangerous decisions.

As mentioned, attachment is forbidden and remains forbidden. This is IN NO WAY A BAD THING. GL clearly has made this out to be a very bad thing indeed- there can be no question of Luke 'loosening' that rule.

'Pass on what you have learned' I always took to mean to a new generation of Jedi, not to his own bloodline, which at the end of ROTJ has no prospect of existing.

And if Leia wants to become a Jedi- then yes, she would have to let go of her feelings for Han. Too dangerous for a Jedi.

People keep saying this "The Jedi got it wrong, the rules about not marrying etc. are bad'. Wrong wrong wrong Those rules are vital!


"A more fine assesment leads to similar but deeper conclusions. Though the process of training Jedi from very young ages worked well, it was flawed. The goal of this process was to avoid the formation of attachment in the first place, and to train the Jedi to ignore emotion, much like a Vulcan. However, this is an inherently flawed premise, as it ignores the very nature of those being trained, which is a nature of emotion. By ignoring emotion and training so as to avoid it completely, this leaves the trainee incapable of handling emotion should it arise. It puts most Jedi at risk to end up like much like Data in Star Trek Generations (sorry they just fit lol), completely overcome and unable to handle them. The logic behind this is roughly equivalent to neglecting to train a student driver to operate in the snow because it is best not to do so. "

Gibberish! The Jedi are absolutely fine at it! It's only the incredibly rare ones that are the problem, and if Anakin hadn't been trained so late there would have been no problem there either!

I can't believe how utterly wrong that idea is. Not a single Jedi is taught to 'ignore' emotion. They are merely given the importance of no forming attachments. Plnety of them have emotions, and make sure they are the master of them not the other way around- not closer to being Vulcan, either. They can handle emotions just fine- they are trained to!

It's not as if GL made this complex. I don't understand why people have such a hard time with this simple concept.

wow...

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
The book states that there were two reasons, one is that Obi-Wan sees Palpatines shuttle approaching and the other is that he decided to leave Anakins fate to the will of the force.
Hmm... I like my idea better

I remember reading somewhere (I'm pretty sure it was the Making Of book) Lucas telling Ewan to make a 'hesitant step' towards Anakin's burning body... I would assume this to mean that he wanted to help Anakin (because of his love for him) but new it best not to. This, however, doesn't really go against what stated was said in the book either...

To leave his fate to the will of the Force would make sense though if Obi-Wan indeed still thought Anakin to be the Chosen One... But he says "You were the Chosen One", and Yoda obviously debates him being the Chosen One: "A prophecy which misread, could have been".

I think from the script Obi-Wan thought Anakin was a goner... by talking to him/about him in the past tense.

ok, This brings up a whole new subject, F*cken Obiwan never beleived that Anakin was the true choosen one, he lost faith once he tuned to the darkside. Things dont occur how u think it will. In ROTJ, his son Luke was the only little bastard that had faith. Obiwan totally thought, kill him, an evil lord, Luke on the other hand, felt good in him.

Dont give Obiwan too much credit, he wanted him dead in OTm but Luke was the savour

Originally posted by Robin Darkside
wow...


yeah 'wow' is right.

its amazing when someone puts thought into a debate, and can disagree without the use of the words "f*ck* and a**hole* and actually take the time to put clear thoughts down and share them with everyone else. its awe inspiring when someone puts all that energy into a thread they didnt create, in an effort to further contribute to discussions in this forum rather than spam the shit out of it for the sake of getting attention.

'wow' indeed

maybe you should take an example and do the same once the feeling of awe has subsided.


oops too late....you're banned

Originally posted by PVS
yeah 'wow' is right.

its amazing when someone puts thought into a debate, and can disagree without the use of the words "f*ck* and a**hole* and actually take the time to put clear thoughts down and share them with everyone else. its awe inspiring when someone puts all that energy into a thread they didnt create, in an effort to further contribute to discussions in this forum rather than spam the shit out of it for the sake of getting attention.

'wow' indeed

maybe you should take an example and do the same once the feeling of awe has subsided.


oops too late....you're banned

where did u get 'wow'

Ah I see socking is still rampant!

indeed it is




btw... JP!!!!!

i miss ya sweety hug

Originally posted by Lazerlike42
I put this in another thread, but I will try to remember what I said exactly....

Yoda was not right to not want him trained. Anakin was one of two things, depending on what you believe, and it doesn't matter which: a creation of Plagiues/Palpatine who would have been picked up and trained by Palpatine, or a random creation of the force who would have been lost forever on Tatooine and never learned how to use the force.

If he was a creation of the Sith and he was not trained, he would have been trained by Sidious from a young age until he was far more powerful than we ever see him in any of the films, would have accepted the Dark Side completely, and together with Sidious would have destroyed the Jedi Order and ruled the galaxy with no hope (ie.e, Luke) of ever being defeated.

If he was a random offshoot left on Tatooine, then Sidious, with his clone army and Dooku at his side, would have destroyed the Jedi and ruled the galaxy (contrary to what Obi-Wan tells Luke, it is the clone army that dooms the Jedi; Anakin's role in the purge is relatively very, very minor), with again no hope (i.e., Luke) of ever being defeated.

It is fallacious to say that Anakin should have been allowed to mature more so as to be able to handle loss; a coarse analysis of the situation would lead to the conclusion that the problem was the opposite, as Jedi are normally trained from MUCH younger ages than Anakin so as they avoid forming any attachment to begin with. In this view, the problem would be that Anakin was too old, and attachment only grows with time. Maturity has little to do with it as a 40 year old man has just as much difficulty accepting the death of a parent as does a 14 year old boy. The flaw is manifested in that Jedi are able to be turned to the dark side, such as Dooku.

A more fine assesment leads to similar but deeper conclusions. Though the process of training Jedi from very young ages worked well, it was flawed. The goal of this process was to avoid the formation of attachment in the first place, and to train the Jedi to ignore emotion, much like a Vulcan. However, this is an inherently flawed premise, as it ignores the very nature of those being trained, which is a nature of emotion. By ignoring emotion and training so as to avoid it completely, this leaves the trainee incapable of handling emotion should it arise. It puts most Jedi at risk to end up like much like Data in Star Trek Generations (sorry they just fit lol), completely overcome and unable to handle them. The logic behind this is roughly equivalent to neglecting to train a student driver to operate in the snow because it is best not to do so.

Qui-Gon was a caring man. This was passed on to Yoda and Obi-Wan between ROTS and ANH, and they follow this in training Luke. Luke is trained to understand his feelings and react appropriately, not to ignore them and act as though they do not exist. The Jedi Order has been compared to Christianity (as well as Buddhism however it is not applicable here) many times. A Christian would tell you that the first step toward evil is to treat it as thought it does not exist. Christians are trained about the temptations of evil from young ages. They are not taught in the manner of Barney the Dinosaur (i.e., the world is happy happy jolly and everyone likes you). With this background, they are able to confront and resist evil. Luke is able to resist because he has learned to, which is one of the bigger errors the Jedi made prior to the rise of Sidious. Before this, young Jedi seem not to have been taught of the dark side; it is known to exist but is not discussed and is taboo. This is a receipe for disaster.

Everyone can let go of the ones they love because in the New Jedi Order, they are prepared. There trainers prepare them, and they themselves mentally prepare themselves from the beginning of their training to let go if it should be necessary. In PT times, Jedi are never allowed to see that there is anything to let go of, thus leaving them very vulnerable. In this context, any Jedi would become intoxicated with the very first sign of love or attachment, imbibed so much with it that it would be virtually impossible to give it up when the time comes.

The first time a serious romantic relationship ends, a person is hit much, much worse than in succesive instances, because he or she has never experienced it before. Later occurences are less traumatic becuase the individual has gained an understanding of the emotional spectrum that is contextual to the situation. Luke is able to resist, as would other New Order Jedi, because in part he has spent his entire life saying goodbye and has learned to handle it. He lost Beru and Owen, all of his friends to the academy, Biggs ultimately to death, and likely many rebel friends. On top of all of this, he lost Obi-Wan, whom he had begun to take as a father, which he had never had, and eventually found his father only to lose him to a fate worse than death as he clung for life on the bottom of the Cloud City. He "was used to it," and by allowing Jedi to have attachment throughout life and guiding and training them in controlling and understanding (as opposed to ignoring) emotion, they too would gain the proper perspective, strength, and "spiritual" ground with which to do so.



wtf, no ones gonna read that shit

...and like a fart in the wind... *poof* ...he was gone

Praise the Lord!

... and the mods

the real teaching is love is good obsession is bad. leia is not trainied by luke, luke marrys reforms orede and if this was already posted sry i just had to say it

no more EU please

EU?

expanded universe....everthing not in the films basically.

luke+mara jade=EU

EU is 'accepted' by GL, but it in no way effects the films, as the prequels have proven. its just outside entertainment, but has no place for debate here.

Originally posted by PVS
expanded universe....everthing not in the films basically.

luke+mara jade=EU

EU is 'accepted' by GL, but it in no way effects the films, as the prequels have proven. its just outside entertainment, but has no place for debate here.

So if George Lucas wrote an EU book would that be non-canonical also? It not your decision as to what happens in the Star Wars universe, if Lucas allows the EU to exist, this means he accepts it as part of the timeline and plot of the galaxy, and nothing you post can change that.

please read the sticky thread instead of breaking my balls

the mods put it there for a reason

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f38/t20461.html

Originally posted by Darth Koroni
So if George Lucas wrote an EU book would that be non-canonical also? It not your decision as to what happens in the Star Wars universe, if Lucas allows the EU to exist, this means he accepts it as part of the timeline and plot of the galaxy, and nothing you post can change that.

IF George wrote a book it would'nt be considered EU. And acceptance of EU is not like an official mark. He just felt obligated because of the fans. Much like if you post a thread here and its accepted that does'nt make it an 'official' thread. You get my drift?l

The Jedi were falling apart starting at TPM. Their teachings were too strict and less concerned for well being. The Jedi do not encourage love because too much emotional attachment leads to dark side symptoms. But this is not true in all people. If you were strong enough in your mind you could pretty much not follow the jedi code at all and be a good Jedi.(Luke did, was too old, loved, was exposed to great emotion like Obi-Wan and his uncle and aunt's deaths, and never even learned the jedi code for that matter)QGJ was very wise to not obey the code ver bat-um because he knew of its restrictions that were not helpful to someone like Anakin. Luke loved, Anakin loved, Obi-Wan loved, Leia loved, but only Anakin didn't have control over his feelings or his brain for that matter if Palp could get in his head that easily. If the Jedi code had not forbid his love he may have not turned because he would've been able to ask the Jedi council for help and they would've told him Palpatine's story was a load of crap. So the short story is QGJ was smart to be a maverick, the jedi needed to change their teachings and got killed, remaining jedi realized their faults, trained a new jedi with not much constraint, he helped bring peace to the galaxy, teachings change. If you can control your emotions then having attachments and such is fine and the dark side will be struck down at your feet. If anyone here has played through K0T0R then Jolee Bindo is a perfect example of what Jedi should be like and what Luke and the new jedi are like after ROTJ, his philosophies are perfect.

Originally posted by PVS
yoda: the force runs strong in your family...pass on what you have learned


aka find apprentices, not necessarily have children

Originally posted by Eleonora
aka find apprentices, not necessarily have children

but yoda said it in the same breath as "the force runs strong in your family" the two sentences were directly connected. im willing to accept that he was talking about training leia, but those 2 sentences were most certainly connected.

im bumping this thread to see what any newbies think...or perhaps if any old timers have any fresh thoughts on the topic.

dont like it? sue me.

i will restate: i do not think that parenthood is necessarily some unhealthy attatchment which leads to the darkside. i firmly believe that the end of rotj alludes to 2 things:

1-han and leia will marry
2-leia will become a jedi

my belief (and i know im digging beneath the plot for this) is that
the old order was structured as a minimal risk environment. in other
words, jedi were allowed to love, but not on a personal "i love you" kind of
why, but in a way in which they are far removed from society and view everyone with a sort of compassion, but no true one on one connection.

i think it was this lack of connection with society that enabled palps to take over. i believe it was this detachment that prevented them from being able to save anakin, or rather to help anakin save himself.

sure everyone in SW was responsible for their own destiny, but it just seemed to me that the jedi were powerless to see the obvious. in their strict code to prevent the little disasters, they blinded themselves to the world outside their temple and allowed the biggest disaster of all to occur unchecked(but mace fought palps!!!111!!!) yeah, because ANAKIN told him the truth...a failed jedi told the jedi master the truth (but yoda fought palps!!!111) yeah, at the last minute when all the jedi were dead...good job yoda, but the red flags were there all along.

Yet George Lucas is still clear about how it is very genuine that a Jedi must not have attachment and so on that basis, marriage for Leia is impossible.

I also still entirely reject that the Jedi's rules had anything to do with why they lost. GL keeps talking them up- obviously they were important. I cannot actually see how they in absolutely any way or form at all contributed to their defeat.

I also think commentary like that is taking advantage of our situation as viewers and not seeing how things were for the Jedi.

I also note that someone earlier in this thread questions my point that GL makes it clear that Qui-Gon is a reckless man.

Well, here is the quote:

"I think it is obvious that Qui-Gon was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision..."

So I think that settles that one. GL goes onto say that QGJ was ultimately correct in his instincts, of course, but he was still taking a very rckless and dangerous decision.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Yet George Lucas is still clear about how it is very genuine that a Jedi must not have attachment and so on that basis, marriage for Leia is impossible. he was NOT clear on that. he was only clear that attachment leads to the darkside. but how can you extend that to mean that love and parenthood leads to the darkside? thats not clear ush, thats your own translation.

Originally posted by Ushgarak

I also still entirely reject that the Jedi's rules had anything to do with why they lost. GL keeps talking them up- obviously they were important. I cannot actually see how they in absolutely any way or form at all contributed to their defeat.

i think their rules lead to detatchment of an unhealthy kind. instead of being above worldy things, they became oblivious.

yoda declared that the jedi were "blind" and mace declared that their ability to use the force had deminished. it was all too easy to pull the wool over their eyes because they were detatched from society...reality in a sense. they did not even consider that a sith lord would attempt to work his way up the political ladder, and could very well be sitting in front of them, smiling and chatting with them. they never considered that the sith could still exist. even after quigon was attacked on tattooine, getting them to accept that the sith had returned was like pulling teeth. its as if they expected everything to just "work out" so long as they stuck to the rules and followed their protocol.

they refused to accept that anakin was not entirely a jedi, and thus needed special attention...by attention i mean simply PAYING attention. instead, they simply passed the buck to poor obiwan and turned their backs. yoda watched luke his whole life as he "looked away into the future...etc", but anakin got married and knocked his wife up and yoda never knew, because he wasnt paying attention. seems like after ep3 he learned his lesson.


Originally posted by Ushgarak
I also think commentary like that is taking advantage of our situation as viewers and not seeing how things were for the Jedi.

not sure i understand where your coming from, as your own commentary on han/leia takes advantage of our situation as viewers since we never get to see what becomes of han and leia...although the story concludes with the two of them in love.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I also note that someone earlier in this thread questions my point that GL makes it clear that Qui-Gon is a reckless man.

Well, here is the quote:

"I think it is obvious that Qui-Gon was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision..."

So I think that settles that one. GL goes onto say that QGJ was ultimately correct in his instincts, of course, but he was still taking a very rckless and dangerous decision.

but thats a vague quote. i wish i could pick GL's brain, but thats all we have to work with....so...

it settles nothing. you just agreed that his instincts were correct. isnt it safe to then assume that mace/yoda's instincts were incorrect? after all, palps would have taken over regardless. remember, he set up his "meeting" with mace using anakin as bait. in a different circumstance he would have had a different plan of attack. perhaps simply by having mace murdered by clones like the rest of them, who knows. its just clear that palps had a plan way before anakin was even a zygote.

the point i'm making is that quigon may have indeed been reckless, and may have made the right choice for the absolute wrong reason (reckless abandon)
but none the less, as you said, it was the right choice in the end, and i would dare say the only right choice.