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Why did Jesus need to die on the cross for our sins in the first place?
Just wondering What that was all about what is the story?

Because he loved us and wants all mankind to be saved...

But what is He saving us from if there's no Hell?

well you know.

I'm druknk again.we all know the crazy shit the churchdid to make people think the way they did.

yeah....and according to the fairy tale........Jesus died for our sins......took them upon himself. As the story goes, that means he is rotting in hell right now. A human being with that much sin must be....

Christians are sooooo contradictory

- waits for a Christian to post some illogical attempt to poke holes in what I just posted -

Originally posted by Evil Dead
yeah....and according to the fairy tale........Jesus died for our sins......took them upon himself. As the story goes, that means he is rotting in hell right now. A human being with that much sin must be....

Christians are sooooo contradictory

- waits for a Christian to post some illogical attempt to poke holes in what I just posted -

-I guess that would be me...

He didn't die with our sins, but for them. If you were to loan money from a bank, he didn't take the loan off of you so that he can be bankrupt. But rather took the loan, and paid it. So you are free from a loan and so is he. I mean, he can pay for any loan you make, when your a king you have that kind of money....

Originally posted by mr.smiley
well you know.

I'm druknk again.we all know the crazy shit the churchdid to make people think the way they did.


Happy happy...wine You are so profound after you've had a few....

Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
-I guess that would be me...

He didn't die with our sins, but for them. If you were to loan money from a bank, he didn't take the loan off of you so that he can be bankrupt. But rather took the loan, and paid it. So you are free from a loan and so is he. I mean, he can pay for any loan you make, when your a king you have that kind of money....


Curious question...Jesus took our place right??? He took our place in Hell then....If a person should be there eternally, then wouldn't be correct that Jesus, if He was to take our place, should be there eternally. If He is really to take our place. Otherwise, Hell wouldn't be a perminate place for anyone..A substitution means a total substitution..

Not to start an argument or anything...Cause you know what I believe anyway about eternal BBQ's

Originally posted by debbiejo
Curious question...Jesus took our place right??? He took our place in Hell then....If a person should be there eternally, then wouldn't be correct that Jesus, if He was to take our place, should be there eternally. If He is really to take our place. Otherwise, Hell wouldn't be a perminate place for anyone..A substitution means a total substitution..

Not to start an argument or anything...Cause you know what I believe anyway about eternal BBQ's

He paid for our sins, he didin't take our place. In the old testament, poeple sacrifised animals to God, for forgiveness of there sins. But the sacrifises could never surmount to the sin that Adam and Eve did. So God told them he would send them the perfect sacrifise that would absolve them of there sins. That is why we stopped sacrifising after Jesus' death. Because:
A. no sacrifise was needed anymore. And
B. No sacrifise could surmount to what Christ died for.

But even with that you say to God, "I will not serve," which is what Lucifer said and Adam and Eve were tricked into saying, God will say, "than don't" and by your actions you condem yourself to place 'where there will be wailing and nashing of teeth.'

Originally posted by PrinceofBlades
He paid for our sins, he didin't take our place. In the old testament, poeple sacrifised animals to God, for forgiveness of there sins. But the sacrifises could never surmount to the sin that Adam and Eve did. So God told them he would send them the perfect sacrifise that would absolve them of there sins. That is why we stopped sacrifising after Jesus' death. Because:
A. no sacrifise was needed anymore. And
B. No sacrifise could surmount to what Christ died for.

But even with that you say to God, "I will not serve," which is what Lucifer said and Adam and Eve were tricked into saying, God will say, "than don't" and by your actions you condem yourself to place 'where there will be wailing and nashing of teeth.'

That is correct. To elaborate, in OT times, people would sacrifice a goat. Once per year, the people would gather together, and a priest would put his hands on the goats head and lay their sins upon the goat. At this, the goat was banished into the forest, along with the sins. This is where we get today's term "scapegoat."

The key to Jesus' sacrifice is that it was a Perfect sacrifice. Why? Jesus never sinned. People make the mistake of believing Jesus took our place. This is not exactly accurate. If Jesus took our place, he would have to suffer in Hell for eternity. He did not; he was sacrificed on our behalf, just as the animals were. However, the animals were only that: animals. Because of this, they could only function so well. Because Jesus never sinned, his sacrifice was enough for ALL sins. He was perfect. This is a simple way of saying it, but it works: every imperfection in a sacrifice detracts from its ability to atone from our sins. Jesus had no imperfections, so His sacrifice had an infinite ability to atone for our sins.

What sin/sins are we talking about?

Originally posted by Storm
What sin/sins are we talking about?

all of them, except maybe blashpemy of the holy spirit, since that is supposedly an unforgivable sin...

guess Im fu*cked then

When I asked my old Pastor what THAT sin was...He just said, if your worried about it, then you haven't done it. But my question is What exactly is it? No one knows.

Originally posted by debbiejo
When I asked my old Pastor what THAT sin was...He just said, if your worried about it, then you haven't done it. But my question is What exactly is it? No one knows.

It's when you deny God, and exclude him of your life. Trash the way you live and the lives of others, and basically aren't sorry for it. It' basically like to telling you, "f*** you." And it's a terrible sin.

Originally posted by finti
guess Im fu*cked then

I don't think so, from the way that you type and your form of speach...there is still hope...

BUT..it says it's an unforgivable sin.....That means you can't even repent of it....No one knows what it means.

as I said guess Im fu*cked then

Maybe the Matrix should replace the Bible....Oh...did I say that?

ohhhhh matrix sucks

Matrix has about the same amount of truth though....

Jesus died for our sins because he was the best con artist of all time period. He has pulled the best prank in 2 melenium's.

If that kind of reality was the truth.....life would suck.

Originally posted by Jedi_KnightAlly
Matrix has about the same amount of truth though....

Jesus died for our sins because he was the best con artist of all time period. He has pulled the best prank in 2 melenium's.

It's a good thing that isn't the truth...

I've been doing some heavy thinking...AND what if infact the Matrix idea is true...We are all living a reality on Bible principles and have been put forth by the Roman church, manipulated and snipped. We all believe that it's not so, and the real reality is that we're living a lie based on false facts...Only some know it. The others are still living a falsely conceived reality....

WE ARE LIVING THE MATRIX....Plug my head in.

how do you meassure thinking?

When it hurts you know you've done it. Must of been my first time.

hmm hangover hurts too

Christ died for our sins so that the effects of the transgression of Adam and Eve should not be eternal.



Originally posted by AOR
He paid for our sins, he didin't take our place.

Christ did take our place, in that he suffered as we would have had he not.

Originally posted by AOR
In the old testament, poeple sacrifised animals to God, for forgiveness of there sins.

People sacrificed animals to god as a symbol of Christ's future sacrifice. In the OT people repented of their sins, same as we do.

Originally posted by AOR
But the sacrifises could never surmount to the sin that Adam and Eve did.

These sacrifices, and the Sacrament, were intended as a reminder of the sacrifice that God and Christ would make.

Originally posted by AOR
So God told them he would send them the perfect sacrifise that would absolve them of there sins. That is why we stopped sacrifising after Jesus' death. Because:
A. no sacrifise was needed anymore. And
B. No sacrifise could surmount to what Christ died for.

These sacrifices were the act that the Sacrament replaced. They were reminders of the sacrifice that would occur. We stopped sacrificing because the event had occurred, and no longer was the event needed to be as graphic to remind men of what would occur. It was separated to remind men of the sacrifice and suffering in Gethsemane (Blood) and on Golgotha (Body).

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The whole idea of Heaven seems kind of pointless....so we're gonna go to Heaven and sing praises to God for the rest of all eternity and exist in a state of spiritual bliss forever....

What doesn't make sense is why did God create Earth in the first place? If he truly wanted all his children with him, he could have easily had us exist in Heaven, minus the trials of Earth, and there would be no problem whatsoever...no pain for anyone, and probably no sin...


To put us on Earth, a world where we all struggle significantly, and with all the contradictions and conflict that shrouds the word and religion that is supposed to represent him, expect us to just blindly follow and beleive in him, when he never even shows himself to all of us.....

And to think that the reason we are all damned is because Eve ate a fkn apple.....

Sounds like bullshit to me

Agreed, almost totally. But then my Heaven and the purpose of life are not what you describe, although I believe that you describe the mainstream-Christian's view. If heaven is the place you describe, then I totally agree.

It cannot see how someone dying in a cross will redeem another person.

I mean, there is a lot of people who died. Are they redeeming our sins, or the person needs to die in a cross ? Or perhaps the person needs to wish to redeem others sins first, and then die ?

I do not understand the relation between death and redeeming others sins. How can we infer using logic and reason the relation between both ?

Originally posted by Atlantis001
It cannot see how someone dying in a cross will redeem another person.

I mean, there is a lot of people who died. Are they redeeming our sins, or the person needs to die in a cross ? Or perhaps the person needs to wish to redeem others sins first, and then die ?

I do not understand the relation between death and redeeming others sins. How can we infer using logic and reason the relation between both ?

It's related to animal sacrifice.

Originally posted by Atlantis001
It cannot see how someone dying in a cross will redeem another person.

I mean, there is a lot of people who died. Are they redeeming our sins, or the person needs to die in a cross ? Or perhaps the person needs to wish to redeem others sins first, and then die ?

I do not understand the relation between death and redeeming others sins. How can we infer using logic and reason the relation between both ?

The Bible states that without the shedding of blood (i.e. giving up of one life for another life) there is no remission of sins. Sin cannot just be forgiven because the penalty for sin is death. So in order for person A to be forgiven of his/her sins a life must be given up in place of person A's life. Jesus is Person B (as it were) giving up His life to pay for person A's sins, so that person A can then be forgiven, released, or redeemed from the consequence of sin which is death.

Not just anyone could die to pay for the sins of another person because that person (person B) must be "sinless" first or person B would need someone to pay for his sin.

Jesus is God and God is the only One Who is sinless. That is why only Jesus Christ is qualified to save humanity from their sins. He is holy (i.e. without sin). He loves you Atlantis001 and wants you to have eternal life. Just ask Jesus to save you from your sins and to give you eternal life. He will do it for you right now. Jesus is coming to get His people (anyone Who asks to be saved from their sins) and you can go with us to Heaven if you want to. This invitation is for all who desire to go to Heaven. Anyone can be saved if they want to be.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The Bible states that without the shedding of blood (i.e. giving up of one life for another life) there is no remission of sins. Sin cannot just be forgiven because the penalty for sin is death. So in order for person A to be forgiven of his/her sins a life must be given up in place of person A's life. Jesus is Person B (as it were) giving up His life to pay for person A's sins, so that person A can then be forgiven, released, or redeemed from the consequence of sin which is death.

Not just anyone could die to pay for the sins of another person because that person (person B) must be "sinless" first or person B would need someone to pay for his sin.

Jesus is God and God is the only One Who is sinless. That is why only Jesus Christ is qualified to save humanity from their sins. He is holy (i.e. without sin). He loves you Atlantis001 and wants you to have eternal life. Just ask Jesus to save you from your sins and to give you eternal life. He will do it for you right now. Jesus is coming to get His people (anyone Who asks to be saved from their sins) and you can go with us to Heaven if you want to. This invitation is for all who desire to go to Heaven. Anyone can be saved if they want to be.



Why is the penalty for sin is death?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why is the penalty for sin is death?


Normally, I try to avoid all communication with you (you know why too) But I am compelled to answer your question if it appears sincere.

The wages of sin and death is a law just like the law of gravity is a law. There is a law called the law of sin and death.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Normally, I try to avoid all communication with you (you know why too) But I am compelled to answer your question if it appears sincere.

The wages of sin and death is a law just like the law of gravity is a law. There is a law called the law of sin and death.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So, you believe this because you it is written in the bible.

Why do you believe the bible?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Normally, I try to avoid all communication with you (you know why too) But I am compelled to answer your question if it appears sincere...

You don't want me to go ti heaven?crybaby

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The Bible states that without the shedding of blood (i.e. giving up of one life for another life) there is no remission of sins. Sin cannot just be forgiven because the penalty for sin is death. So in order for person A to be forgiven of his/her sins a life must be given up in place of person A's life. Jesus is Person B (as it were) giving up His life to pay for person A's sins, so that person A can then be forgiven, released, or redeemed from the consequence of sin which is death.


Doesnt that justifies murder ? After all, the people murdered Jesus.

I will be doing right if I decided to kill someone pure to be free myself of my sins ?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You don't want me to go ti heaven?crybaby

To hell with ya.... dev

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It's related to animal sacrifice. Which was derived from paganism.........eating and drinking the blood of a sacrificed animal.

Originally posted by Atlantis001
To hell with ya.... dev

I can't go to hell because there is no such thing.

Only if you choose it..............a mind thing...........a place where you dwell on your thoughts..............a place that some feel they cannot get out of...............a place where many take their own lives in because they cannot take it anymore.........that is HELL.............but it is your choice where you want to be.........it's your perception on where you are right now!!........Are you in heaven or hell?..................IT IS YOUR CHOICE..........I choose Heaven............Been to hell

Originally posted by Atlantis001
Doesnt that justifies murder ? After all, the people murdered Jesus.

I will be doing right if I decided to kill someone pure to be free myself of my sins ?

All of humanity is sold under sin as it were (we are all born sinners) and we fall short of the glory is God. There isn't any such animal as a pure person. No such person has ever existed or will ever exist. Jesus did all of the dying that was needed to effect salvation for all nations. Put your faith in Him for salvation.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
All of humanity is sold under sin as it were (we are all born sinners) and we fall short of the glory is God. There isn't any such animal as a pure person. No such person has ever existed or will ever exist. Jesus did all of the dying that was needed to effect salvation for all nations. Put your faith in Him for salvation.

I don't believe we have been sold into sin.

Sin comes from a misunderstand from older beliefs for the why is this happening too me thing............"OH you must of made the god(s) unhappy"........so they would give a sacrifice for it hoping to make the god happy.


Saw it in Star Trek too...

so with that logic, Jesus was also born with sin then.

BUT why, OH why, should one condemn an innocent baby to be full of sin???

Originally posted by fini
so with that logic, Jesus was also born with sin then.

BUT why, OH why, should one condemn an innocent baby to be full of sin???

Well, his mother was a virgin, and that makes all the difference.

A virgin birth is possible, but I can't explain how, the forum would not allow it.

Its easy, Mary was artifically inseminated.

Originally posted by Regret
Agreed, almost totally. But then my Heaven and the purpose of life are not what you describe, although I believe that you describe the mainstream-Christian's view. If heaven is the place you describe, then I totally agree.


I am criticizing the mainstream Christianity's version of Heaven, so yes you'd agree to my assertion.

However, keep in mind, the mainstream version of Christianity's Heaven is heavily supported by the Bible....

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The Bible states that without the shedding of blood (i.e. giving up of one life for another life) there is no remission of sins. Sin cannot just be forgiven because the penalty for sin is death. So in order for person A to be forgiven of his/her sins a life must be given up in place of person A's life. Jesus is Person B (as it were) giving up His life to pay for person A's sins, so that person A can then be forgiven, released, or redeemed from the consequence of sin which is death.


So it's official: God wants Blood

That shows what a violent being God is...


Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Jesus is God and God is the only One Who is sinless.



How can someone who demands bloodshed be sinless?

this is where the good ol works in mysterious ways quote comes in handy

"Yout can't understand. Just accept what we tell you."

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
All of humanity is sold under sin as it were (we are all born sinners) and we fall short of the glory is God. There isn't any such animal as a pure person. No such person has ever existed or will ever exist. Jesus did all of the dying that was needed to effect salvation for all nations. Put your faith in Him for salvation.

So by a sin(murdering someone pure, like Jesus) I can be redeemed of my sins ?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I can't go to hell because there is no such thing.

Guess you saved yourself this time !

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
All of humanity is sold under sin as it were (we are all born sinners) and we fall short of the glory is God. There isn't any such animal as a pure person. No such person has ever existed or will ever exist. Jesus did all of the dying that was needed to effect salvation for all nations. Put your faith in Him for salvation.

We were born into sin? Oh you mean when Eve ate the apple ?

How mythological...