The Phoenix vs. Fully-Powered Spectre

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Draco69
The Presence has decreed that the Phoenix MUST DIE (Permanently that is). Can the Spectre beat the Phoenix?

GalacticStorm
This is just going to end up as a Presence Vs TOAA thread which is pointless. Also this was done already a few days ago. Its probably somewhere on the first 3 or so pages.

Superherovandal
Actually Spectre will easily eat the Phoenix alive you see even though they both have powerful sources of power Spectre's is easily infinitely more powerful

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Superherovandal
Actually Spectre will easily eat the Phoenix alive you see even though they both have powerful sources of power Spectre's is easily infinitely more powerful

Well considering Chris C and GM have all but said directly that the primal force of creation that makes jean a phoenix is Gods essence i dont believe that is the case. Jeans name phoenix of the white crown means that she is a sephiroth. A vessel created by God for him to pour his essence into so that his work can be carried out in the world of man. This is basically a TOAA Vs Presence thread. To settle this why not just go by their feats shown in the comics? Theres no other way really

Superherovandal
Have you yet proved where it says that PF is incarnation of TOAA. Show me the exact quotes. Don't just assume. We need actual proof. Since Presence and TOAA are equal that would mean that Presence would be more powerful than PF. So if he wanted it Phoenix would be gone forever.

Cosmic Flame
Please explain how can both of these statements be true:



and

Superherovandal
well since they are both the creators of their respective universes they are the most powerful in them and would be considered equal. and Spectre gets his power from Presence who is more powerful than the PF in turn if Presence wanted him to destroy the Phoenix or even the PF he would give Spectre that much power.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Superherovandal
well since they are both the creators of their respective universes they are the most powerful in them and would be considered equal. and Spectre gets his power from Presence who is more powerful than the PF in turn if Presence wanted him to destroy the Phoenix or even the PF he would give Spectre that much power.

So TOAA is just going to allow the primal force of creation to be destroyed? That would end all life in existence. The primal force of creation made the multiverse and all the abstracts. It is one with them also. It cannot die. TOAA would never allow it. Stop thinking of the phoenix as some separate firebird entity. The avatars are the phoenix. The name just representative of their death and subsequent rebirth into a higher being. The union between the primal force of creation and those with genetic phoenix potential creates a phoenix. That firebird is just a manifestation of the avatars powers.

Superherovandal
Yeah But TOAA isn't involved with this.

Superherovandal
But in this thread TOAA isn't involved and Presence gave him the power to destroy The Phoenix. And if Presence wants Phoenix gone and sends Spectre it will be done.

Cosmic Cube
I don't think the Phoenix Force can be killed.

Superherovandal
I'm sure if Presence gave Spectre the power to do it he could.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Superherovandal
I'm sure if Presence gave Spectre the power to do it he could.

This is ultimately the Presence vs. The Phoenix. Of course the Phoenix isn't going to win.

But, The Phoenix is beyond Death. How is it possible for it to die?

Dizzle
It can't "die" in the normal sense... But being erased from existance counts as the same thing, I think.

Superherovandal
he could make it never exist. that could make it "die".

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Superherovandal
he could make it never exist. that could make it "die".

Understood. This is pretty obvious, then. Spectre with all of the Presence's power is the Presence.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Superherovandal
But in this thread TOAA isn't involved and Presence gave him the power to destroy The Phoenix. And if Presence wants Phoenix gone and sends Spectre it will be done.

It doesnt work like that im afraid. The primal force of creation is an aspect of God. No explanation necessary. It is the force that is behind the making of everything. All life in existence, everything. TOAA is very much involved with this as it stands

Because of the stupid 86 retcon, people have it embedded in their minds that phoenix is just another cosmic entity. That phoenix was just a sentent energy field derived from the psychic energy of all things. The original Phoenix and the one that is in current continuity isnt phoenix at all if that makes sense. Thats the avatars. This is the primal force of creation which isnt an entity it just pours its essense into those with phoenix potential and they become avatars. The avatars are phoenix and the firebird is just a manifestation of their powers. So this is spectre Vs the primal force of creation which isnt an entity it is just a force. A part of TOAA. Jeans name in the comics is Phoenix of the white crown. Which means that she is a vessel for the essence of God. Which is the primal force of creation.

Superherovandal
so it would be a stalemate between Spectre and PF?

Superherovandal
if Presence gave him the power he can do whatever Presence enables him to do.

Cosmic Cube
If the Phoenix is removed permanently, that would end all life in existance, wouldn't it? Why would Spectre be allowed to do that?

Cosmic Flame
Then life wouldn't exist. The Phoenix is the totality of ALL life. Remember when Galactus tried to remove it from Rachel? Stars died. And that's just Rachel.

And how is the Presence involved, but not TOAA? Isn't that a little one-sided? Especially since you're talking about two different universes. TOAA is going to say, "OK. I'm okay with destroying all of my creation." That's a little weird.

Superherovandal
well this is a forum battle. in the thread it states the Presence is involved but nowhere does it say anything about TOAA. The consequences to reality have no affect on this battle.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Then life wouldn't exist. The Phoenix is the totality of ALL life. Remember when Galactus tried to remove it from Rachel? Stars died. And that's just Rachel.

And how is the Presence involved, but not TOAA? Isn't that a little one-sided? Especially since you're talking about two different universes. TOAA is going to say, "OK. I'm okay with destroying all of my creation." That's a little weird.

I agree. The Phoenix is everything. All life would cease to be if it is destroyed. Would The One Above All allow it?

Creshosk
These top level fight keep making me want to find that one "what if" comic where korvac makes the avengers his pawns. . . just something from a website I read that's bugging me, and would make things entirly different if it's true. . .

Superherovandal
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Then life wouldn't exist. The Phoenix is the totality of ALL life IN THE MARVEL UNIVERSE. Remember when Galactus tried to remove it from Rachel? Stars died. And that's just Rachel.

And how is the Presence involved, but not TOAA? Isn't that a little one-sided? Especially since you're talking about two different universes. TOAA is going to say, "OK. I'm okay with destroying all of my creation." That's a little weird.

just edited to prove my point so I apoligize with the greatest esteem. wink

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Superherovandal
well this is a forum battle. in the thread it states the Presence is involved but nowhere does it say anything about TOAA. The consequences to reality have no affect on this battle.

So basically, this is Phoenix vs. The Presence. Spectre is irrelevant. It's extremely lopsided.

Cosmic Flame
Originally posted by Draco69
The Presence has decreed that the Phoenix MUST DIE (Permanently that is). Can the Spectre beat the Phoenix?

This is the premise. There is nothing stated about the Presence increasing Spectre's power. That's a supposition.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Superherovandal
just edited to prove my point so I apoligize with the greatest esteem. wink

Not all life in the Marvel Universe. All life in Marvel, period.

GalacticStorm
There is no Phoenix Force as such. Phoenix is the name of the avatars. Its what they become when they join with the primal force of creation. The primal force of creation is a part of TOAA. You'd think that the supreme being of existence would have something to do with the creation of existence. Also the meaning of jeans name tells you that the primal force of creation is Gods essense.

Superherovandal
You see when Presence wants Spectre to do something he is the one that gives Spectre the power. So he would be giving energy to Spectre.

Superherovandal
but where does it actually clearly state it.

Draco69
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
This is the premise. There is nothing stated about the Presence increasing Spectre's power. That's a supposition.

But as I understand when the Presence decrees that the Spectre do something, it/he/she gives him the power to perform the job. When the Spectre goes rogue however it's extremely weak. Dr. Fate kicked his ass.

Superherovandal
yeah and thats coming from the guy who created the thread. So BOO-YAH!!!!!

Dizzle
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
I agree. The Phoenix is everything. All life would cease to be if it is destroyed. Would The One Above All allow it?

It wouldn't, but since it's impossible to link PF directly to TOAA, a divine intervention would be using outside help.

By link, I mean it doesn't draw its power directly from TOAA like Spectre does with the Presence. It is a separate force, possibly created by TOAA for the same reason Michael and Lucifer were by the Presence- to create everything else.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Superherovandal
but where does it actually clearly state it.

In Uncanny Xmen 137 it says that Jean became phoenix when she united with the primal force of creation. The force that is the be all and end all of everything. It created everything and everything is one with it. Jean is called Phoenix of the white crown. Her name means that she is the vessel for Gods essence so that his/its work can be done in our plane of existence. What more proof do you want?

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
There is no Phoenix Force as such. Phoenix is the name of the avatars. Its what they become when they join with the primal force of creation. The primal force of creation is a part of TOAA. You'd think that the supreme being of existence would have something to do with the creation of existence. Also the meaning of jeans name tells you that the primal force of creation is Gods essense.

Sounds convincing, but is it ever made clear? Feron (the first avatar) actually gave the force it's Phoenix shape.

Superherovandal
OK fine but like Dizzle said perhaps PF isn't part of TOAA but a force created by TOAA to create everything else. So direct linkage to the Creator would be more powerful.

GalacticStorm
Seraphims which jeans name tells you she is are traditionally depicted as fire emblazoned humans with wings. They carry within them the essence of God. They are sent down from heaven to heal mans world and to correct our wrongdoins.

The phoenixes as shown in New Xmen are directed and regulated by an unseen Voice which sends them down from thw white hot room into our plane of existence so that they can carry out theit healing duties.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Superherovandal
OK fine but like Dizzle said perhaps PF isn't part of TOAA but a force created by TOAA to create everything else. So direct linkage to the Creator would be more powerful.

How do we know that it isn't connected to God? Micheal and Lucifer are different. They are individuals. The Phoenix is a force.

Superherovandal
I'm not saying its right but what im saying is isn't it possible that it is true? It would make a whole bunch of sense.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Sounds convincing, but is it ever made clear? Feron (the first avatar) actually gave the force it's Phoenix shape.

That was the retcon phoenix. 86 to 2003 was the retcon phoenix where it was made to be just another cosmic entity. That phoenix was an energy field made sentient by Feron. Thats the phoenix people have embedded in their heads. The original phoenix and the one that is in current continuity isnt phoenix itself. The avatars are phoenix. It is the primal force of creation which joins with those of phoenix potential, making them avatars. Try and get the firebird entity out of your head. Thats just a manifestation from the avatars.

Dizzle
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
In Uncanny Xmen 137 it says that Jean became phoenix when she united with the primal force of creation. The force that is the be all and end all of everything. It created everything and everything is one with it. Jean is called Phoenix of the white crown. Her name means that she is the vessel for Gods essence so that his/its work can be done in our plane of existence. What more proof do you want?

Doesn't say that it is actually "part" of TOAA. The name means nothing, Batman isn't actually part bat. Lucifer and Michael also created "everything" in DC. They're not directly linked to the Presence. You assume too much about Phoenix...

Marvel is against direct religion in their comics, why would they have an actual choir of angels? The whole thing is probably based off of the Seraphim, but that doesn't mean that the Phoenix avatars "are" Seraphim. It also never says that Jean is necessarily a Sephiroth, you just assume that because she is the most powerful of the avatars, which you assume are Seraphim.

The whole thing could be an analogy, not an equivalence. It's just impossible to tell.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Superherovandal
I'm not saying its right but what im saying is isn't it possible that it is true? It would make a whole bunch of sense.

You're making a good point, but I imagine a force of all creation would be a part of The One Above All. The Phoenix seems to be a channel by which the power is used.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Superherovandal
I'm not saying its right but what im saying is isn't it possible that it is true? It would make a whole bunch of sense. There's a possibility that. . . er hang on let me find that link




*shrugs* Dunno if its true or not. . .

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Creshosk
There's a possibility that. . . er hang on let me find that link




*shrugs* Dunno if its true or not. . .

?

Creshosk
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
?

Cosmic Cube
Are you saying that theology is used in Marvel's comics? What the f**k? I'm not grabbing ya.

Dizzle
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
You're making a good point, but I imagine a force of all creation would be a part of The One Above All. The Phoenix seems to be a channel by which the power is used.

It's all still speculation though. Michael and Lucifer also created everything. (I know, but its the only other example of creating everything...)

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Dizzle
It's all still speculation though. Michael and Lucifer also created everything. (I know, but its the only other example of creating everything...)

It is confirmed, we can do nothing more than speculate. I think that the force of all creation would be a connected to TOAA.

GalacticStorm
"It also never says that Jean is necessarily a Sephiroth, you just assume that because she is the most powerful of the avatars, which you assume are Seraphim."

Her name marks her out as a sephiroth. Also theres too many parallels between the phoenix situation and that of the seraphim. Marvel tends not to explicitly use religious themes in their comics. Maybe thats why its just suggested with the phoenix and heavily at that. Theres just too many similarities and too much symbology that links Phoenix to TOAA.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Are you saying that theology is used in Marvel's comics? What the f**k? I'm not grabbing ya. I'm guessing that that is saying that

is on a level found on page seven, right with the other. . .uh. . . Whatever is on page 7.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Creshosk
I'm guessing that that is saying that

is on a level found on page seven, right with the other. . .uh. . . Whatever is on page 7.

What are you talking about? You think that Yaweh is a skyfather?

GalacticStorm
"Doesn't say that it is actually "part" of TOAA. The name means nothing, Batman isn't actually part bat. Lucifer and Michael also created "everything" in DC. They're not directly linked to the Presence. You assume too much about Phoenix..."

Nope it says that she is one with the primal force of creation. Her name means that she is a vessel for Gods essence. Whom god created so that his work could be carried out in the world of man

Her and the phoenixes are regulated outside of existece in the white hot room by an unseen voice which sends them into the multiverse to carry out their healing and disinfection duties.

The seraphim traditionally assemble in Gods throne room and are sent from heven to enter the world of man to cleanse the world with fire and burn away mans wrongdoings.

In New Xmen Jean says as Phoenix she must perform her 'destined disinfection duties' in the world of man. She says she she must 'burn away what doesnt work'

The Phoenix energy signature is that of a fiery raptor.

The seraphim are fire emblazoned humans with wings.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
What are you talking about? You think that Yaweh is a skyfather? No, Yaweh was standing next to skyfather. . .

Dizzle
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"It also never says that Jean is necessarily a Sephiroth, you just assume that because she is the most powerful of the avatars, which you assume are Seraphim."

Her name marks her out as a sephiroth. Also theres too many parallels between the phoenix situation and that of the seraphim. Marvel tends not to explicitly use religious themes in their comics. Maybe thats why its just suggested with the phoenix and heavily at that. Theres just too many similarities and too much symbology that links Phoenix to TOAA.

Her name marks her eh... Is Batman a Bat? Is Wolverine actually a Wolverine? NO. Because her name implies that she may have a role similar to the theological Sephiroth does not mean Jean IS a Sephiroth. Because the PF is paralleled to God does not mean that it is God. The symbology links nothing, because TOAA is not portrayed as Christianity's God.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Dizzle
Her name marks her eh... Is Batman a Bat? Is Wolverine actually a Wolverine? NO. Because her name implies that she may have a role similar to the theological Sephiroth does not mean Jean IS a Sephiroth. Because the PF is paralleled to God does not mean that it is God. The symbology links nothing, because TOAA is not portrayed as Christianity's God.

Marvel doesnt have a Christian God youre correct. It doesnt have angels and so on from what i have seen. However what im saying is that Marvel has equivalents. TOAA is Marvels equivalent of God and it is assumed that his/its power is absolute. Jean is the equivalent of a sephiroth in Marvel comics.

Creshosk
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Marvel doesnt have a Christian God youre correct. It doesnt have angels and so on from what i have seen. However what im saying is that Marvel has equivalents. TOAA is Marvels equivalent of God and it is assumed that his/its power is absolute. Jean is the equivalent of a sephiroth in Marvel comics. Actually. . . if that article is true. . .

Originally posted by Dizzle
Her name marks her eh... Is Batman a Bat? Is Wolverine actually a Wolverine? NO. Because her name implies that she may have a role similar to the theological Sephiroth does not mean Jean IS a Sephiroth. Because the PF is paralleled to God does not mean that it is God. The symbology links nothing, because TOAA is not portrayed as Christianity's God. You're right . . if that article about that comic is true then Chrustianity's god would be below TOAA. . .



*shrugs*

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix energy signature is that of a fiery raptor.

The seraphim are fire emblazoned humans with wings.

I think you mean a fiery bird-like envisage. Raptors are lizards.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
I think you mean a fiery bird-like envisage. Raptors are lizards. Raptor is also the clasification for meat eating birds such as hawks and eagles. . .

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Dizzle
Her name marks her eh... Is Batman a Bat? Is Wolverine actually a Wolverine? NO. Because her name implies that she may have a role similar to the theological Sephiroth does not mean Jean IS a Sephiroth. Because the PF is paralleled to God does not mean that it is God. The symbology links nothing, because TOAA is not portrayed as Christianity's God.

He is portrayed as being the supreme being, however. The Phoenix may not be an angel, but it is the force of creation.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Creshosk
Raptor is also the clasification for meat eating birds such as hawks and eagles. . .

Thank you smile

Dizzle
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Marvel doesnt have a Christian God youre correct. It doesnt have angels and so on from what i have seen. However what im saying is that Marvel has equivalents. TOAA is Marvels equivalent of God and it is assumed that his/its power is absolute. Jean is the equivalent of a sephiroth in Marvel comics.

Since you have so painstakingly proved that Phoenix Avatars are EXACTLY like Seraphim, why would their leader be different from God? Wouldn't it make sense that they would be commanded by the head of the good, rather than the preserver of balance?

Creshosk
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thank you smile To throw more fuel on your fire, We can use actual Christian theology to draw a parrelel. Throughout the Bible there are scenes describing the seraphim, the "burning ones" that burn with their holiness, surrounding God's throne.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Creshosk
To throw more fuel on your fire, We can use actual Christian theology to draw a parrelel. Throughout the Bible there are scenes describing the seraphim, the "burning ones" that burn with their holiness, surrounding God's throne.

Cool. Thanx for that.

ImmortalOne
I'm a christian and I approve those things...

THe Phoenix Force is an entity that the sum of all-things in the Marvel Universe..
IMO:
Lets use a metaforre, there are 10 people (the whole universe) in 1 room (the marvel universe) and there is 1 more person in that room (PF of course) which is as strong as the other 10...

So there are 11 people, 1 is as strong as the other 10 COMBINED
So if that POWERFUL 11th dude dies or dissappear, nothing is gonna happen !!!

Get my point ??

ImmortalOne
And if you wanna use Christian POV
Take it like this..... GOD ALMIGHTY has many seraphims, angels, and if one of them die, or even ALL of them DIE... Nothings gonna happen.... GOD CAN single-handedly CONTROL the UNIVERSE
Angels alike, are jut tools to show the LORDs power...

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by ImmortalOne
I'm a christian and I approve those things...

THe Phoenix Force is an entity that the sum of all-things in the Marvel Universe..
IMO:
Lets use a metaforre, there are 10 people (the whole universe) in 1 room (the marvel universe) and there is 1 more person in that room (PF of course) which is as strong as the other 10...

So there are 11 people, 1 is as strong as the other 10 COMBINED
So if that POWERFUL 11th dude dies or dissappear, nothing is gonna happen !!!

Get my point ??

I see what point you were trying to make but it wasnt quite right for this situation.

The primal force of creation IS life it created it and is one with it. Its essense runs through everything. Without it all life in existencewould come to an end. Hence what happened in Excalibur when Galactus tried to exorcise the force from Rachel. The stars in the universe started to die


"And if you wanna use Christian POV
Take it like this..... GOD ALMIGHTY has many seraphims, angels, and if one of them die, or even ALL of them DIE... Nothings gonna happen.... GOD CAN single-handedly CONTROL the UNIVERSE
Angels alike, are jut tools to show the LORDs power..."

The thread was directed against the phoenix. Not jean. I then had to explain to people that phoenix is the avatars. That they are created by a union with the primal forec of creation which is an aspect of God. Thats why i said this thread is basically a TOAA VS Presence thread. If the primal force of creation was vanquished which it cant be. All life would die with it. But it cant die.

Superherovandal
it may have parallels to the Seraphim but that doesn't mean that it is. I mean like when Supes defeated Doomsday but died in the process it has some parallels to the Crucifixion but that doesn't mean he is Jesus or he is as powerful as him.

Dizzle
It can't "die" in the normal sense, but the Presence could very easily wipe it from existance. You have yet to convince me that the PF is actually as powerful as TOAA.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Superherovandal
it may have parallels to the Seraphim but that doesn't mean that it is. I mean like when Supes defeated Doomsday but died in the process it has some parallels to the Crucifixion but that doesn't mean he is Jesus or he is as powerful as him.

Not only are there parallels in the role of the phoenixes and how they act in the comics. But also the phoenix stories are saturated with kaballic symbology linking the primal force of creation to TOAA. You would think that the primal force of creation was a part of god anyway. Also jeans name means that she is a vessel for the essense of god. All of those things together all but directly state that the primal force of creation which makes phoenixes is a part of TOAA.

Superherovandal
That is a weird coincidence with Jean's name seeing how the Phoenix wasn''t even thought up at least 10 yrs after she existed.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Superherovandal
That is a weird coincidence with Jean's name seeing how the Phoenix wasn''t even thought up at least 10 yrs after she existed.

You've misunderstood. The phoenix entity/separate firebird wasnt thought up till 6 years after Jean became Phoenix. In 1980 she was phoenix because she joined with the primal force of creation and the firebird back then was just a physical manifestation of her power. That and the name phoenix represented her death and rebrth into a higher being. In the classic Xmen stories from back then Jean was still called Phoenix of the white crown and was shown in her white phoenix costume when talking to death. No coincidence at all.

Dizzle
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not only are there parallels in the role of the phoenixes and how they act in the comics. But also the phoenix stories are saturated with kaballic symbology linking the primal force of creation to TOAA. You would think that the primal force of creation was a part of god anyway. Also jeans name means that she is a vessel for the essense of god. All of those things together all but directly state that the primal force of creation which makes phoenixes is a part of TOAA.

Ok, part of God vs. All of God. Spectre's still winning.

Oh, and "Jean" doesn't mean the channel of God's power thing, the title White Crown does.

Mider
Who is this White Crown Phoenix and were has She appeared?

Beyonder
Spectre wins. He's an agent of the Presence and according to this thread is told to destroy PF. Guess what now? He does.

As for PF, it's all speculation that she works for TOAA. It's not exactly true.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Beyonder
Spectre wins. He's an agent of the Presence and according to this thread is told to destroy PF. Guess what now? He does.

As for PF, it's all speculation that she works for TOAA. It's not exactly true.

Not exactly true? Not directly stated. Just heavily suggested through symbology, the many blatant parallels between the phoenixes and the seraphim in terms of their roles and appearances. Also jeans name phoenix of the white crown meaning that she is a vessel for Gods essense. Its just too heavily suggested for it to be ignored. Simple as.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Dizzle
Ok, part of God vs. All of God. Spectre's still winning.

Oh, and "Jean" doesn't mean the channel of God's power thing, the title White Crown does.

Thats what ive been saying throughout this thread. It was my wording. I should have said jeans title means....

instead of jeans name means...

Dizzle
Symbology doesn't directly correspond to power levels. It's never stated that the parallel for God is TOAA, in relationship to the Phoenix Avatars. So while they may be Seraphim, they do not necessarily have the power of TOAA backing them. (That's the third time I've explained this, and undoubtedly the third time it's gonna be ignored or countered with the fact that the Avatars parallel the Seraphim. One line can be parallel to another and still be below it...)

The name means nothing. Batman. Nuff said. It's just another thing to establish her rank among the Avatars, not to literally mean that she channels the power of TOAA.

Beyonder
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not exactly true? Not directly stated. Just heavily suggested through symbology, the many blatant parallels between the phoenixes and the seraphim in terms of their roles and appearances. Also jeans name phoenix of the white crown meaning that she is a vessel for Gods essense. Its just too heavily suggested for it to be ignored. Simple as.

Adam Warlock = Jesus = GOD

- Unnatural birth (The HIVE)
- battled on the behalf of the Creator to save the world (fought on the behalf of the High Evolutionary to save counter Earth against Man-beast)
- crucified (was crucified)
- reserructed (resurrected & help defeat Thanos w/ the IG)
- ascension (became GOD with the IG)
- Holy Trinity (split into three beings: Adam Warlock, The Magus, The Goddess)

There's your symbols. LT still took Warlock's godhood away. You want parrallels and symbols - that's more than enough.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Beyonder
Adam Warlock = Jesus = GOD

- Unnatural birth (The HIVE)
- battled on the behalf of the Creator to save the world (fought on the behalf of the High Evolutionary to save counter Earth against Man-beast)
- crucified (was crucified)
- reserructed (resurrected & help defeat Thanos w/ the IG)
- ascension (became GOD with the IG)
- Holy Trinity (split into three beings: Adam Warlock, The Magus, The Goddess)

There's your symbols. LT still took Warlock's godhood away. You want parrallels and symbols - that's more than enough.

Was his mother a virgin? shifty

lol j/k

Sentry
Originally posted by Beyonder
Adam Warlock = Jesus = GOD

- Unnatural birth (The HIVE)
- battled on the behalf of the Creator to save the world (fought on the behalf of the High Evolutionary to save counter Earth against Man-beast)
- crucified (was crucified)
- reserructed (resurrected & help defeat Thanos w/ the IG)
- ascension (became GOD with the IG)
- Holy Trinity (split into three beings: Adam Warlock, The Magus, The Goddess)

There's your symbols. LT still took Warlock's godhood away. You want parrallels and symbols - that's more than enough.

Your a genius. Warlock is the man. Sorry, had to throw that in there. The inner fanboy in me influenced that post.

Dizzle
Originally posted by Beyonder
Adam Warlock = Jesus = GOD

- Unnatural birth (The HIVE)
- battled on the behalf of the Creator to save the world (fought on the behalf of the High Evolutionary to save counter Earth against Man-beast)
- crucified (was crucified)
- reserructed (resurrected & help defeat Thanos w/ the IG)
- ascension (became GOD with the IG)
- Holy Trinity (split into three beings: Adam Warlock, The Magus, The Goddess)

There's your symbols. LT still took Warlock's godhood away. You want parrallels and symbols - that's more than enough.

Nice example... Angels<Jesus<LT
LT owns PF. big grin
So does Warlock. laughing out loud

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Dizzle
Nice example... Angels<Jesus<LT
LT owns PF. big grin
So does Warlock. laughing out loud

They do?

Dizzle
No, but since Warlock is symbolized as Jesus (kinda), he should be above all of the Phoenix avatars, according to Galactic's logic. Which isn't true... Which I've been saying this whole time...

Cosmic Cube
If TOAA didn't intervene, I'm sure the Presence could wipe the Phoenix from existence. Isn't that what the thread is about?

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Dizzle
No, but since Warlock is symbolized as Jesus (kinda), he should be above all of the Phoenix avatars, according to Galactic's logic. Which isn't true... Which I've been saying this whole time...

Good point.

ImmortalOne
Hey dudes stop it with the Adam Warlock thingy, did yall forgot the topic

Fierybalog, everyone... perhaps the term KILL or DEFEAT the PF could simplified as SEALING it or MUTING it thus rendering it unable to do anything, but not MAKING IT GONE FROM EXISTENCE....

You know .... somehow ImPRISONING it !! (PF)
Both of these dudes cant die, Spectres dies.....than the spirit will keep on searching a new host...... Jean dies than PF will also search a new avatar...

kgkg
Originally posted by ImmortalOne
Hey dudes stop it with the Adam Warlock thingy, did yall forgot the topic

Fierybalog, everyone... perhaps the term KILL or DEFEAT the PF could simplified as SEALING it or MUTING it thus rendering it unable to do anything, but not MAKING IT GONE FROM EXISTENCE....

You know .... somehow ImPRISONING it !! (PF)
Both of these dudes cant die, Spectres dies.....than the spirit will keep on searching a new host...... Jean dies than PF will also search a new avatar...
Apparently Jean is one with the PF now

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by kgkg
Apparently Jean is one with the PF now

She is. It is stated in the last book of Endsong.

But, destroying the Phoenix would destroy creation. When Thanos tried to remove the force from Rachael, stars died, and that's only Racheal. The Presence's actions would be the undoing of all creation in Marvel. If TOAA didn't intervene, what would become of creation?

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by ImmortalOne
Hey dudes stop it with the Adam Warlock thingy, did yall forgot the topic

Fierybalog, everyone... perhaps the term KILL or DEFEAT the PF could simplified as SEALING it or MUTING it thus rendering it unable to do anything, but not MAKING IT GONE FROM EXISTENCE....

You know .... somehow ImPRISONING it !! (PF)
Both of these dudes cant die, Spectres dies.....than the spirit will keep on searching a new host...... Jean dies than PF will also search a new avatar...

Good points, but Jean is one with the Phoenix Force. She can't be killed. I don't even think she can be considered an avatar anymore.

kgkg
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
She is. It is stated in the last book of Endsong.

But, destroying the Phoenix would destroy creation. When Thanos tried to remove the force from Rachael, stars died, and that's only Racheal. The Presence's actions would be the undoing of all creation in Marvel. If TOAA didn't intervene, what would become of creation?
Thanos you mean galactus ?

kgkg
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
She is. It is stated in the last book of Endsong.

But, destroying the Phoenix would destroy creation. When Thanos tried to remove the force from Rachael, stars died, and that's only Racheal. The Presence's actions would be the undoing of all creation in Marvel. If TOAA didn't intervene, what would become of creation?
I though that was from the retcon period and GalacticS didn't like when I use anything from the year 86-2003 sad

I really don’t see a second retcon do you ?

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by kgkg
I though that was from the retcon period and GalacticS didn't like when I use anything from the year 86-2003 sad

I really don’t see a second retcon do you ?

Never did. What changed since 2003?

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by kgkg
Thanos you mean galactus ?

embarrasment

Yes. I don't recall her fighting Thanos.

kgkg
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Never did. What changed since 2003?
Well arrantly according to GalacticS it become a Force (not an entity)

But in Engsong (Phoenix Force = powerful entity)

kgkg
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Never did. What changed since 2003?
well LT was holding the Phoenix Force like a child

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by kgkg
Well arrantly according to GalacticS it become a Force (not an entity)

But in Engsong (Phoenix Force = powerful entity)

Ive already explained this to you KG. In endsong there wasnt a separate phoenix force entity. Thats what you were lead to believe in the beginning and from previews. By reading endsong you found out that the mad 'being' in endsong was actually just a shard of jean. Not a separate force. There is no phoenix force as such. Thats retcon talk. There was a union between Jean and the primal force of creation. This created Phoenix. Which was jean. The firebird was just a physical manifestation of her power and it reprsented her rebirth. All firebird entities you saw in any of the comics were just manifestations created by the avatars. It is not a separate entity.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by kgkg
well LT was holding the Phoenix Force like a child

Nope. LT was holding a manifestation of jeans powers in his hand. As per current ontinuity. The separate firebird entity doesnt exist anymore. Thats from the silly 86 retcon which took over from the original phoenix idea of 1980 and itself got retconned by the original idea a few years ago. About 2003.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ive already explained this to you KG. In endsong there wasnt a separate phoenix force entity. Thats what you were lead to believe in the beginning and from previews. By reading endsong you found out that the mad 'being' in endsong was actually just a shard of jean. Not a separate force. There is no phoenix force as such. Thats retcon talk. There was a union between Jean and the primal force of creation. This created Phoenix. Which was jean. The firebird was just a physical manifestation of her power and it reprsented her rebirth. All firebird entities you saw in any of the comics were just manifestations created by the avatars. It is not a separate entity.

Can I make the force look like a dog, if I'm an avatar? I think the Phoenix Shape is part of it's nature.

Endsong says the Phoenix Force is Jean. How do you explain that?

kgkg
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. LT was holding a manifestation of jeans powers in his hand. As per current ontinuity. The separate firebird entity doesnt exist anymore. Thats from the silly 86 retcon which took over from the original phoenix idea of 1980 and itself got retconned by the original idea a few years ago. About 2003.
That's why I said what has changed.

And back than this was the entire Force.

Galactic can you tell me where does marvel state the second recton happen? 2003?

kgkg
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Can I make the force look like a dog, if I'm an avatar? I think the Phoenix Shape is part of it's nature.

Endsong says the Phoenix Force is Jean. How do you explain that?
And why did stars ect start despairing if it was retcon I didn't get that to?

Where did the recton happen comic issue(not the 86 one)?

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Can I make the force look like a dog, if I'm an avatar? I think the Phoenix Shape is part of it's nature.

Endsong says the Phoenix Force is Jean. How do you explain that?

Isnt that what im saying? There is no separate phoenix force because it is jean. The firebird is just jeans energy signature , a representation of her rebirth.

Zahit
Wouldn't Spectre ride that Phoenix Force like an untamed animal of passion?

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Isnt that what im saying? There is no separate phoenix force because it is jean. The firebird is just jeans energy signature , a representation of her rebirth.

This is perplexing.

kgkg
Originally posted by Zahit
Wouldn't Spectre ride that Phoenix Force like an untamed animal of passion? sick sick

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by kgkg
And why did stars ect start despairing if it was retcon I didn't get that to?

Where did the recton happen comic issue(not the 86 one)?

Some writers used during the retcon period had the phoenix as the sentient psychic energy of all living things, some had it as one with life. However during the retcon period, all writers had it as a separate entity and its status was reduced as such. It was made just another cosmic being as opposed to jean being phoenix after a union with THE primal force of creation which is second only to TOAA.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Zahit
Wouldn't Spectre ride that Phoenix Force like an untamed animal of passion?

Maybe he would. After all, he is just a man, with earthly lusts, and divine power.

GalacticStorm
New Xmen KG

kgkg
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Some writers used during the retcon period had the phoenix as the sentient psychic energy of all living things, some had it as one with life. However during the retcon period, all writers had it as a separate entity and its status was reduced as such. It was made just another cosmic being as opposed to jean being phoenix after a union with THE primal force of creation which is second only to TOAA.
Then how come she wasn’t mentioned in the new "The end series (it had all the powerhouses including LT)

kgkg
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
New Xmen KG
issue number ? and it states there was a retcon?

Creshosk
Originally posted by kgkg
issue number ? and it states there was a retcon? When does it ever say directly "this is a retcon" or anything like that?

kgkg
Originally posted by Creshosk
When does it ever say directly "this is a retcon" or anything like that?
Well how many retcon are there?

Beyonder it was stated, Phoenix fist one was 86 ( stated by marvel) what else?

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by kgkg
Then how come she wasn’t mentioned in the new "The end series (it had all the powerhouses including LT)

The Phoenix of the white crown isnt featured in a lot of comics with universal threats yet you know that jean is a lot more powerful than virtually all of the players involved. Doesnt make sense does it? I think the Phoenixes only get involved in affairs which require their particular expertise. Things only they can do. For example in Gambit and the Xternals 3 it is said that only Phoenix has the power to contain the M'Kraan crystal which is basically a multiversal reset switch. However in AOA because of different circumstances Jean hadnt become Phoenix yet and all of the multiverse would have been wiped out if not for bishop preventing Legions tamperings with the crystal in the past. In The End Thanos eventually relinquished his power no intervention was required.

" issue number ? and it states there was a retcon?"

Since when does it state in comics ummm 'as of this issue there will be a retcon'. It doesnt. The comics just feature ideas and concepts totally at odds with fundamental concepts of previous story arc in the comics.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by kgkg
Well how many retcon are there?

Beyonder it was stated, Phoenix fist one was 86 ( stated by marvel) what else?

Was it stated by Marvel in 86? Thats news to me. Thats just when that issue off FF came out and you found out in it that Jean and the phoenix were separate entities

Cosmic Cube
GalacticStorm has some good points, but I don't recall a second retcon.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
GalacticStorm has some good points, but I don't recall a second retcon. A retcon is something new that overrides the old.

Each comic seems to be a retcon. As each provides new information to the old.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
GalacticStorm has some good points, but I don't recall a second retcon.

Basically Gm in New Xmen about 2 years ago retconned the phoenix story and took it back to Chris C's original ideas behind Phoenix when he created her. As of New Xmen Jean is Phoenix. Its not the separate firebird entity of the 86 -03 era. In new Xmen certain individuals are born with Phoenix potential. They realise their ultimate potential when they die. This is what happened with Jean and it happened in New Xmen to Quentin Quire(Kid Omega) who by the end of New Xmen you find out is also a phoenix avatar. These phoenixes become one with creation and achieve their telekinetic godhood.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Creshosk
A retcon is something new that overrides the old.

Each comic seems to be a retcon. As each provides new information to the old.

True. It doesn't necesarily have to be mentioned. The half of the second volume, and the entire third volume of the Hulk was retconned in one issue. Nothing has happened since Hulk left the Pantheon. Bruce was dreaming the entire time.

I'm open to convincing.

Beyonder
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
She is. It is stated in the last book of Endsong.

But, destroying the Phoenix would destroy creation. When Thanos tried to remove the force from Rachael, stars died, and that's only Racheal. The Presence's actions would be the undoing of all creation in Marvel. If TOAA didn't intervene, what would become of creation?

It's a comicbook forum. Your thinking about it too deeply. It's fully powered Spectre Vs. PF. Who wins in a fight? Who cares of the consequences?

I mean we can do the same for threats with anyone fighting Galactus, Death, or Eternity. I mean if they were destroyed then the universe would be destroyed. You think if Eternity were to fight - and the possibilities of him dying are high - that Galactus or Death or all of Earth's heroes aren't going to intervene in the fight...even though it's a comic book forum fight?


Again, don't look too deeply into this Cosmic Cube. Who wins? That's all you need to say.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Beyonder
It's a comicbook forum. Your thinking about it too deeply. It's fully powered Spectre Vs. PF. Who wins in a fight? Who cares of the consequences?

I mean we can do the same for threats with anyone fighting Galactus, Death, or Eternity. I mean if they were destroyed then the universe would be destroyed. You think if Eternity were to fight - and the possibilities of him dying are high - that Galactus or Death or all of Earth's heroes aren't going to intervene in the fight...even though it's a comic book forum fight?


Again, don't look too deeply into this Cosmic Cube. Who wins? That's all you need to say.
True. The Spectre, powered by the Presence, would win. This might as well be the Phoenix vs The Presence, as I earlier stated.

ImmortalOne
Phoenix vs. Spectre = All-Marvel Beings vs. DC TOAA

Thus...

Creation vs Creator !!

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