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Ive been wondering about this...and i apologize if this has been done before

it has been and phoenix takes him with ease

Pheonix wins. No doubt.

how?

Originally posted by Crazymaniac
how?

Too powerful.

depends entirely on the avatar. galactus crushes anything but a VERY high level wielder of the phoenix force. only one i've ever personally seen that can do it is jean - and she is the HIGHEST level wielder. rachel couldn't beat g (thor ko'd her in an issue of thor!), the guy from guardians of the galaxy (wish i could remember his name) couldn't do it either, and that was a weakened galactus. that same guy was also soundly beaten by dormammu.

so no, phoenix doesn't win 'easily'. there's a very good chance the avatar doesn't win at all, circumstances depending. i only recall one meeting between jean and g in the what if where she managed to fend him off - not beat him, (g said he COULD have beaten her, but it was not worth the great effort it would take) and again he was not at full power. i seem to think they've met another time, but i don't remember the exact situation.

is the pf potentially greater than g? of course, it apparently extends throughout the multiverse. but it needs to be wielded by an avatar and not all avatars (i'd say VERY few) can wield it with enough command to defeat a full power galactus.

wish everyone would stop saying 'phoenix wins' as soon as its name pops up . . .

i wholeheartedly agree

Originally posted by leonidas
depends entirely on the avatar. galactus crushes anything but a VERY high level wielder of the phoenix force. only one i've ever personally seen that can do it is jean - and she is the HIGHEST level wielder. rachel couldn't beat g (thor ko'd her in an issue of thor!), the guy from guardians of the galaxy (wish i could remember his name) couldn't do it either, and that was a weakened galactus. that same guy was also soundly beaten by dormammu.

so no, phoenix doesn't win 'easily'. there's a very good chance the avatar doesn't win at all, circumstances depending. i only recall one meeting between jean and g in the what if where she managed to fend him off - not beat him, (g said he COULD have beaten her, but it was not worth the great effort it would take) and again he was not at full power. i seem to think they've met another time, but i don't remember the exact situation.

is the pf potentially greater than g? of course, it apparently extends throughout the multiverse. but it needs to be wielded by an avatar and not all avatars (i'd say VERY few) can wield it with enough command to defeat a full power galactus.

wish everyone would stop saying 'phoenix wins' as soon as its name pops up . . .

The same logic of Galactus being at full power also applies to Phoenix at full power. The reason that most people say that Phoenix wins the vast majority of matches is because she should. People always say, "Well, Galactus wasn't at full power." How often have we seen a full power Galactus? What IS a full power Galactus? Is there even such a thing? If Galactus can be at full power, why can't the host have full command of his/her power?

Besides, Galactus is primarily energy, and Phoenix consumes energy. The same Phoenix that was KOed by Thor is the same one that managed to contain a nuclear explosion in Excalibur. Incidentally, Galactus was incredibly weakened by a nuclear explosion in Thanos.

By the way, the Phoenix associated with the Galactic Guardians and Guardians of the Galaxy is named Giraud. He and the Guardians got their butts handed to them by a Dormammu that had double power because he'd joined his past and future selves. He also defeated Dr. Strange, who incidentally has a certain immunity to Death. This same Phoenix also healed Eternity itself, as well as drained Korvac of his power and deposited him in another dimension.

why should she? if that were the case, why HAVE the character?? if all she needs to do is show up and she wins against anything, what's the use of having her?? the pf is ridiculous, and my point (thankfully) remains the same - only certain avatars can wield/are CAPABLE of wielding/are PERMITTED to wield, the energy needed to defeat a galactus-level entity. full pf is greater than full g, so what difference does it make who's full powered or not? and strictly speaking, pf is a universal/multiversal protector. ie - depending on circumstances and the threat, the avatars powers may fluctuate, a fact clearly demonstrated by our combined examples. galactus however, is a universal force, doing what is in his nature and what the universe DICTATES he do. why should ANY avatar be granted power to stop him from doing ANYTHING? g is not a 'universal threat' - just the opposite in fact. if the pf is really what it purports to be, its avatar should NEVER be able to deal with galactus. unless the big g goes 'bad' or something . . .

and, considering the fact that g regularly consumes planets or stars and stands in the middle of them while they explode all around him, not to mention the fact that his own powers have at times shook the UNIVERSE, to intimate that g even FELT a nuclear explosion is among the most ludicrous things i've ever heard. and if it DID happen, the writer should be hung and it is deserving of never again being mentioned on this or ANY forum.

There is only one avatar of the Phoenix. Jean Grey.

Galactus at full power is among the top 20 beings in Marvel. The Phoenix is in the top 5.

there are MANY MANY avatars. anyone who wields the pf is an avatar. there have been many in the common marvel universe and dozens shown in alternate realities and seperate universes. jean is the white crown - most powerful of the avatars. least i'm ALMOST sure that's how it works . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
there are MANY MANY avatars. anyone who wields the pf is an avatar. there have been many in the common marvel universe and dozens shown in alternate realities and seperate universes. jean is the white crown - most powerful of the avatars. least i'm ALMOST sure that's how it works . . .
Marvel doesn't have a clear idea what the Phoenix force "really" is.

Originally posted by leonidas
there are MANY MANY avatars. anyone who wields the pf is an avatar. there have been many in the common marvel universe and dozens shown in alternate realities and seperate universes. jean is the white crown - most powerful of the avatars. least i'm ALMOST sure that's how it works . . .

Not really. Jean is the avatar, because she is one with the Phoenix Force. Racheal is a host of the Phoenix. So was Emma. There can be only one true avatar.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
There is only one avatar of the Phoenix. Jean Grey.

Galactus at full power is among the top 20 beings in Marvel. The Phoenix is in the top 5.
Full power he is near top 5-10

Galactus’s power is derives from his universe (whose power rivals even Eternity)

Galactus is at high end Celestial Level which is pretty high.

Originally posted by kgkg
Full power he is near top 5-10

Galactus’s power is derives from his universe (whose power rivals even Eternity)

Galactus is at high end Celestial Level which is pretty high.

Ok. Full power Galactus is top 10 then. He would be on par with Eternity, at full power.

Eternity is top 10?

Who are the top 10?

LT is definitely 1 beside God.

This is my take on it.

The One Above All
The Living Tribunal/The Heart Of The Universe/The Phoenix Force (disputable)
The Infinity Gauntlet
Eternity/Infinity/Full Power Galactus
Death
Etc.

Do you disagree?

Then again, is Full Power Galactus really above Death?

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
This is my take on it.

The One Above All
The Living Tribunal/The Heart Of The Universe/The Phoenix Force (disputable)
The Infinity Gauntlet
Eternity/Infinity/Full Power Galactus
Death
Etc.

Do you disagree?
here is what i have
i won't put God he should never be challenged.
after all my reading I have come to this conclusion

1) HOTU
2) Pre Rec Beyonder
3) LT
4) IG
5) Phoenix Force
6) Eternity (in IG he was seen the highest of all entities)
7) Infinity
8) Death (Multiversal) – In terms of power.
9) Oblivion
10) Chaos / Order
11) Full Power Galactus/ High end Celestials – there is theories (in marvel comics that Celestials are just like Galactus all survivors of different universes – also said to be born out of Galaxies)

Originally posted by kgkg
here is what i have
i won't put God he should never be challenged.
after all my reading I have come to this conclusion

1) HOTU
2) Pre Rec Beyonder
3) LT
4) IG
5) Phoenix Force
6) Eternity (in IG he was seen the highest of all entities)
7) Infinity
8) Death (Multiversal) – In terms of power.
9) Oblivion
10) Chaos / Order
11) Full Power Galactus/ High end Celestials – there is theories (in marvel comics that Celestials are just like Galactus all survivors of different universes – also said to be born out of Galaxies)

That sounds a little more accurate.

someone who "weilds" the Phoenix Force is not an avatar, or at least thats not an accurate term. Its a poor word to use because it means something else. Avatar means "incarnation". The accurate term would be "host", and thats whats used in the books for the most part. The beetle that the Phoenix Force possessed does not become an avatar, for example.

The term "avatar" can be used with Jean, because it states that she is one with the force on several separate occasions. Its also been stated that shes an incarnation. Hence the term avatar.

Originally posted by kgkg
Marvel doesn't have a clear idea what the Phoenix force "really" is.

thats for sure, at least different authors have different interpretations. Its possible to come up with a consistent view of the force now though thanks to Endsong.

Originally posted by FieryBalrog
thats for sure, at least different authors have different interpretations. Its possible to come up with a consistent view of the force now though thanks to Endsong.

I think more is needed.

Like connection to god or creation.

But its Sad the force has been ignored in most marvel comics

Except X-men

so it's also hard to gauge it’s power(and the retcon there are too many , the writer don’t have clear idea if you read it keeps changing.)

X-men comics say one thing, other marvel comics says other.

<<someone who "weilds" the Phoenix Force is not an avatar, or at least thats not an accurate term. Its a poor word to use because it means something else. Avatar means "incarnation". The accurate term would be "host", and thats whats used in the books for the most part. The beetle that the Phoenix Force possessed does not become an avatar, for example.>.

point taken regarding terminology. you and cube are correct. my main points however, (bungling terminology aside) remain: (1) that not all hosts appear to be as powerful as others, and NO host is as powerful as jean. i doubt anyone other than jean could defeat galactus - or any true high end cosmic. and, (2) just because a phoenix 'host' is involved in a battle doesn't mean that host is invincible. which is what a lot of people seem to believe.

and there has ALWAYS been confusion (at least for me) about the pf, going all the way back to its inception.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<someone who "weilds" the Phoenix Force is not an avatar, or at least thats not an accurate term. Its a poor word to use because it means something else. Avatar means "incarnation". The accurate term would be "host", and thats whats used in the books for the most part. The beetle that the Phoenix Force possessed does not become an avatar, for example.>.

point taken regarding terminology. you and cube are correct. my main points however, (bungling terminology aside) remain: (1) that not all hosts appear to be as powerful as others, and NO host is as powerful as jean. i doubt anyone other than jean could defeat galactus - or any true high end cosmic. and, (2) just because a phoenix 'host' is involved in a battle doesn't mean that host is invincible. which is what a lot of people seem to believe.

and there has ALWAYS been confusion (at least for me) about the pf, going all the way back to its inception.

I agree with you. And yes, there has always been confusion, because its a mythology. Its taken in different directions by different people. Gradually its been drifting back towards Claremonts initial vision, which was the Phoenix as the ultimate step in Jeans evolution as a psi. Nowawadays starting with Morrison its sort of accomodating both views- the Phoenix as an entity and force that exists in the universe, but also a mutant (Jean Grey) is intimately connected to it in some way, its "human form" or "living focus" in a sense. It is somehow related to her telekinesis. In Endsong the Shi'ar refer to Jean as its "heart".

Regarding the what if ,Jean had just re-trasformed after being lobotomized by the Sh'iar.Just like when Moira tests Jean in the Proteus saga and later in the Dark Phoenix saga,it is said here that the power grows geometrically (or exponentially) the more she uses it.When Jean re-transforms into Phoenix in UXM 137 after seeing Cyclops fall Xavier telepathically orders the x-men to attack her while she's still vulnerable,and they manage to hit her because she's stil weak.When in the What If Jean completely surrenders to Dark Phoenix she expands uncontrollably and consumes the Universe.
At this point Galactus (and everyone else) is a non-factor.
Giraud,just like Jean,had from the very first issue in which he was introduced psychic circuit breakers in place which held his power to manageable levels.And this was also the case for Rachel.When Necrom fought Rachel he said that he acceded only a tiny fraction of the Phoenix,but unlike her he wasnt afraid to use it.He destroyed a solar system,and the scale of his attacks was ever growing.While it is true that Jean is the only avatar,limitations are nearly always self-imposed.Necrom wasnt even a host,only a parasite,but used the power on a scale Rachel never dared to,because she acceded only the amount of power she felt comfortable with.

As for the Phoenix/Jean avatar thing:Jean dies on the Shuttle.In the moment of death,for an instant her telepathy becomes absolute,overstepping her mortal/physical limitations.She becomes one with all sentient life,past,present and future.Her telekinesis becomes absolute:she becomes one with all matter and energy,time and space,all of creation.She can resurrect herself in a new body (hence Phoenix) and is reborn as an avatar of the force of creation,to which she offers an human viewpoint and the possibility to involve itself in creation from the inside.When she resurfaces from the waters in Uxm 101 Jean says deliriously: "the world,the stars,all of creation...are a part of me".However the experience was so overwhelming that she immediately began to negate it.
All manifestations of the phoenix that later bonded with Rachel,Madelyne,probably Giraud,etc. have been created by Jean in the moment of her transformation.

In X-Men the End Jean says to Kurt that the Phoenix is perfect for jumpstarting Creation,but some things require a human touch.Thats why she's unique,because she is Jean and Phoenix.The fact that she is human also means that she can be corrupted, manipulated, surrender to her dark side,etc.

In Morrison view Phoenix avatars are beings which are reborn through their version of the phoenix trasformation and can perform their tasks in the normal universe.Given that we'have seen various stray manifestations of the phoenix,and that even the survival of a Universe in NXM 154 did not seem much important to another Phoenix,it is seems that when the main task is accomplished,collateral damage or secondary consequences(even the destruction of single Universes) are not so important.We cannot say therefore that a phoenix host/avatar/wielder could not be permitted to reach enough power to defeat Galactus.


I put the Phoenix at the top of the hyerarchy because I like its symbology better.
The White Hot Room is the place where universes are born,are tended to when they are sick and die.It is an analog of the kabbalistic world of creation,where everything begins to exist.The Crown (the white light to wich the phoenixes fly at the end of Nxm 154) is described in the kabbalah as the alpha and omega of everything conceivable:not just actual universes,even imaginary ones.It is the state that trascends Creation,in which everything that was,is,will or could be exists in its archetypal form :"you were always there,waiting for yourself to arrive".Even Pre-Rec Beyonder was just the embodiment of a single Multiverse,while the IG derives from the Infinity Being,which to me was a previous incarnation of Eternity/Infinity.
Just like everything else they were conceived in the Crown and born in the White Hot Room.If the Phoenix really is an aspect of the Force of Creation,everything else descends from it.
The HOTU may be an artifact that someway directly taps into this force.We still dont know what its power source was.
So my hyerarchy is:

1) The Crown
2) Hotu
3) True Beyonders/Starbrand (multiversal level entities)/LT
4) Death/Oblivion
(Because even universes die eventually)
5) IG/Eternity/Infinity

and so on
The Phoenix as force of creation may be 1 or 1.5.The upper limit of an avatar/host is uncertain.


To Kgkg:if you're going by Pre-Rec Beyonder,then even him considered Rachel the only being in the Universe with the potential to be his equal (not LT ).And when Rachel made him experience the totality of life he realized he couldnt stop her even if he wanted,and felt humbled by what she made him see.

Fantastic post.

Originally posted by markolin
To Kgkg:if you're going by Pre-Rec Beyonder,then even him considered Rachel the only being in the Universe with the potential to be his equal (not LT ).And when Rachel made him experience the totality of life he realized he couldnt stop her even if he wanted,and felt humbled by what she made him see.
Not true Beyonder sucked the phoenix out of Rachel.

When did Beyonder say that? Issue number

When the Beyonder reclaims from Rachel his powers in uxm 203 the captions say that he tries to make her stop but she doesnt stop.He tries to move,but he cannot.That he wanted his power back,but what came back was far more that even he could bear.He is unable to stop Rachel and falls to the ground in shock saying "I never dreamed...never imagined...never conceived"

As for the Beyonder saying that Rachel is the only being with the potential to be his equal,around Uxm 196

Really good post Markolin. You should come on these forums more often.

Thanks Long Pig and Galactic Storm.You make me blush

Originally posted by markolin
When the Beyonder reclaims from Rachel his powers in uxm 203 the captions say that he tries to make her stop but she doesnt stop.He tries to move,but he cannot.That he wanted his power back,but what came back was far more that even he could bear.He is unable to stop Rachel and falls to the ground in shock saying "I never dreamed...never imagined...never conceived"
i know that markolin i have that comic I even posted scans of it.

where does it say She is = or can be a challege to Beyonder.

Beyonder to R says: you are what you are solely because I will it.

When he observes her in the comics that lead up to their encounter 201-202.In uxm 196 he says that of all the beings he encountered she was the one more similar to him.In uxm 202 he says that she refuses what she is when she could be much more.

"Beyonder to R says: you are what you are solely because I will it."
Still,when he asks his powers back he receives much more that he gave her,because through Phoenix he comes in contact with all life,and he could not stop the process even if he wanted.While Rachel is still an infant in the use of her power,the PF as the sum of all life comes across as greater than the Beyonder.

Originally posted by markolin
When he observes her in the comics that lead up to their encounter 201-202.In uxm 196 he says that of all the beings he encountered she was the one more similar to him.In uxm 202 he says that she refuses what she is when she could be much more.

"Beyonder to R says: you are what you are solely because I will it."
Still,when he asks his powers back he receives much more that he gave her,because through Phoenix he comes in contact with all life,and he could not stop the process even if he wanted.While Rachel is still an infant in the use of her power,the PF as the sum of all life comes across as greater than the Beyonder.
Phoenix Force couldn’t beat the Beyonder

Absorb it, but he did.

He even killed death.

Pre Rec Beyonder was said to be the Strongest out there, limited by nothing.

again you didn't answer my question where does it say she was could be = to Pre rec beyonder power like you said.

In Uxm 196 he says that she has an incredible potential,of which she is not aware,and that of all the beings he encontered it is the one more similar to him.Which is more than he had to say of everyone else.

He did not fight the Phoenix Force.He did only fight Rachel,which he himself said was like a newborn baby compared to what she could have been at full potential.He gave her part of his power precisely to transform her into a true phoenix. Still,when he claimed back his powers,he could not stop the feedback,which came from the connection of Rachel with all life through the phoenix,and not from the power he gave her.He didnt appear much in control of the situation.

tell me, how would she be able to beat him?

Originally posted by markolin
In Uxm 196 he says that she has an incredible potential,of which she is not aware,and that of all the beings he encontered it is the one more similar to him.Which is more than he had to say of everyone else.

He did not fight the Phoenix Force.He did only fight Rachel,which he himself said was like a newborn baby compared to what she could have been at full potential.He gave her part of his power precisely to transform her into a true phoenix. Still,when he claimed back his powers,he could not stop the feedback,which came from the connection of Rachel with all life through the phoenix,and not from the power he gave her.He didnt appear much in control of the situation.

He giveth, he taketh. She couldn't keep her powers, nor could her powers prevent him from taking it way from her.

You can argue this and that about whats said, but she couldn't do a thing.

Furthermore, during the SW II, the Phoenix Force had nothing to do with the White Crown. There was no White Crown. Rachael was the host; the Phoenix Force was the being inside her that gave her power. The Phoenix Force was the fire bird that manifested every time she used her power - it was inside her.

If your going to bring in the White Crown and how PF is now a multiverse being because of Endsong, then we should see Rachael fighting nothing more than a misguided cube being that is the Beyonder. If your going to take one reckon, you should take the other.

If not, than the PF wasn't a multiverse level being. Beyonder gave Rachael it; he than took it away. Neither she nor PF was able to stop him from taking it away.

Above Death have any of you seen how many people have beaten Death? Grandmaster, Inbetweener who gets treated like an animal by Lord Order and Master Chaos, by the way Inbetweener fought Galactus to a stalemate, i dont think Death really has that much power She is just a very important part of the cosmic balance one of the most important parts with out Her things would to go shit nothing would die but if She fought someone one on one She would probably lose.

Pheonix wins. No problem.

Originally posted by Beyonder
He giveth, he taketh. She couldn't keep her powers, nor could her powers prevent him from taking it way from her.

You can argue this and that about whats said, but she couldn't do a thing.

Furthermore, during the SW II, the Phoenix Force had nothing to do with the White Crown. There was no White Crown. Rachael was the host; the Phoenix Force was the being inside her that gave her power. The Phoenix Force was the fire bird that manifested every time she used her power - it was inside her.

If your going to bring in the White Crown and how PF is now a multiverse being because of Endsong, then we should see Rachael fighting nothing more than a misguided cube being that is the Beyonder. If your going to take one reckon, you should take the other.

If not, than the PF wasn't a multiverse level being. Beyonder gave Rachael it; he than took it away. Neither she nor PF was able to stop him from taking it away.

do you understand the concept of "full potential" and "evolving power levels"?

The original beyonder would have punked the entire multiverse, I'm not surprised he could drain the Phoenix out of Rachel.

Originally posted by FieryBalrog
do you understand the concept of "full potential" and "evolving power levels"?

So the PF evolved into a multiverse level being and evolved the White Crown?

Do you not understand reckons? During SW II, there was no such thing as White Crown or Phoenix having a thing to do with the creation of the universe much less multiverse.



Yup. He gave her the PF, and he took it away. He said this and that, but he took it away and she couldn't do a thing about it - neither could the PF.

To mix in Endsong with SW II just doesn't mesh. During SWII, there was no White Crown. During Endsong, the Beyonder has already been reckon as being a cube being - and cube beings are above Skyfather only a notch or two, below Galactus.

Phoenix started as the huge force, was retconed into an entity, then un-retconed into the multiversal force again. Confusing stuff, still no clear indication of how powerful it really is though, I've gone into long explanations on parallels vs. equivalents on the very subject of Phoenix. There's just too many unknowns though. It beatws the crap out of Galactus either way though...

Originally posted by Beyonder


Yup. He gave her the PF, and he took it away. He said this and that, but he took it away and she couldn't do a thing about it - neither could the PF.
s.

he "gave" her the PF? You are completely mistaken. Rachel received a portion of her mother when she was first timetravelling to the current era as the force returned to Jean's old body in the coccoon. It lay dormant until the Beyonder. He didn't "give" her anything.

He took it away, big deal. Like I said, original beyonder was insane, and yes, what he said matters.

now you just sound like you dont want to accept certain parts of the story. "gave" her the PF indeed...

"So the PF evolved into a multiverse level being and evolved the White Crown?

Do you not understand reckons? During SW II, there was no such thing as White Crown or Phoenix having a thing to do with the creation of the universe much less multiverse."


You're very wrong here B. The white crown Phoenix and jean being phoenix through the primal force of creation existed waaaaayy before SW2. That was Chris C's idea originally and it is the one that has been made current continuity once again. This phoenix was second only to TOAA. Try reading Uncanny Xmen 101- 137 and Classic Xmen 8, 42 and 43 to educate yourself. Jean was back then and is right now(thanks to GM and also endsong) phoenix. There's no separate force entity. Remember the phoenix retcon happened in 86. When did Secret Wars 2 occur? The portion of phoenix rachel had was just a portion of jeans phoenix essense. Jean is the original avatar. Rachel is just a host and has nowhere near her mothers power levels. If you read Secret Wars 2 you will see that the phoenix has a connection with all life in existence because when beyonder takes his power back from Rachel he finds that through her connection with Phoenix he getting an insight into what it is all about. Creation, life in all its myriad forms and he is overwhelmed and falls to the ground. Jean as Phoenix of the white crown. Being united with the primal force of creation as you can see would overwhelm the beyonder in his pre rec state.

"To mix in Endsong with SW II just doesn't mesh. During SWII, there was no White Crown. During Endsong, the Beyonder has already been reckon as being a cube being - and cube beings are above Skyfather only a notch or two, below Galactus."

There is no ned to mix in Endsong with Secret Wars and it really doesnt matter if you do because it makes no real difference. Endsong and GM's run on New Xmen were just cementing as continuity Chris C's ideas on Phoenix, not creating new ones. Those ideas were continuity waaay before Secret Wars 2.

Beyonder taking on more than he can handle:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Beyonder taking on more than he can handle:

how would phoenix be able to defeat a full powered galactus

even normal not soridiculously powered dark pheonix handled galactus before, im pretty sure galactus is destroyed in this matchup.

Originally posted by WOLVERINEFAN
how would phoenix be able to defeat a full powered galactus

Phoenix created and is one with the multiverse, Galactus eats planets. theres no comparison.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

You're very wrong here B. The white crown Phoenix and jean being phoenix through the primal force of creation existed waaaaayy before SW2. That was Chris C's idea originally and it is the one that has been made current continuity once again. This phoenix was second only to TOAA. Try reading Uncanny Xmen 101- 137 and Classic Xmen 8, 42 and 43 to educate yourself. Jean was back then and is right now(thanks to GM and also endsong) phoenix. There's no separate force entity. Remember the phoenix retcon happened in 86. When did Secret Wars 2 occur? The portion of phoenix rachel had was just a portion of jeans phoenix essense. Jean is the original avatar. Rachel is just a host and has nowhere near her mothers power levels. If you read Secret Wars 2 you will see that the phoenix has a connection with all life in existence because when beyonder takes his power back from Rachel he finds that through her connection with Phoenix he getting an insight into what it is all about. Creation, life in all its myriad forms and he is overwhelmed and falls to the ground. Jean as Phoenix of the white crown. Being united with the primal force of creation as you can see would overwhelm the beyonder in his pre rec state.

"To mix in Endsong with SW II just doesn't mesh. During SWII, there was no White Crown. During Endsong, the Beyonder has already been reckon as being a cube being - and cube beings are above Skyfather only a notch or two, below Galactus."

There is no ned to mix in Endsong with Secret Wars and it really doesnt matter if you do because it makes no real difference. Endsong and GM's run on New Xmen were just cementing as continuity Chris C's ideas on Phoenix, not creating new ones. Those ideas were continuity waaay before Secret Wars 2.

No you don't get it. There was no White Crown or anything of the sort during SWII.

Connected to all life; it doesn't mean the universe: time, space, reality, matter, etc. Your so overestimating her powers it ain't even funny.



And there we have it. He took it away and she couldn't do a damn thing about it.

Originally posted by Beyonder
No you don't get it. There was no White Crown or anything of the sort during SWII.

Connected to all life; it doesn't mean the universe: time, space, reality, matter, etc. Your so overestimating her powers it ain't even funny.



And there we have it. He took it away and she couldn't do a damn thing about it.

That was lame B. What you've said has changed nothing im afraid.

"Connected to all life; it doesn't mean the universe: time, space, reality, matter, etc. Your so overestimating her powers it ain't even funny. "


Secret Wars 2 occurred from July 85 to March 86. This happened BEFORE the phoenix retcon. Therefore Phoenix was jean in union with the primal force of creation which was second only to TOAA and created existence, Jean was Phoenix of the White Crown.


"And there we have it. He took it away and she couldn't do a damn thing about it"

Whats your point? That was Rachel. Who had a portion of Jeans essence and was still crazy powerful. No she couldnt have done a thing about it. But as you saw from my pic and as you've learned from my teachings over the last few weeks, her mother very well could.

"No you don't get it"

YOU dont get it B my boy/girl whatever you are.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

YOU dont get it B my boy/girl whatever you are.

...that your a Phoenix fanboy/girl trying to hype up Phoenix Force as always being multiverse level and second only to TOAA?

Your also the one to think:
PF>LT
PF>HOTU - since the HOTU only controls the Multiverse & Phoenix Force created (riiiight) the Multiverse
PF>IG - when it hasn't done anyting to shown that it's greater than the group of cosmic elites which the IG casually dismisses.

Rant on baby, rant on like the rains of the monsoon. Your still a PF lover whose overhyping things.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Beyonder taking on more than he can handle:

WOW. Kudos to GS.

Originally posted by Beyonder
...that your a Phoenix fanboy/girl trying to hype up Phoenix Force as always being multiverse level and second only to TOAA?

Your also the one to think:
PF>LT
PF>HOTU - since the HOTU only controls the Multiverse & Phoenix Force created (riiiight) the Multiverse
PF>IG - when it hasn't done anyting to shown that it's greater than the group of cosmic elites which the IG casually dismisses.

Rant on baby, rant on like the rains of the monsoon. Your still a PF lover whose overhyping things.

This was the best you could come up with B?

Dear boy at the end of the day what i say is supported in the comics.

I have no desire to argue with you. I pity u, really i do. Whenever youre ready to converse in an adult manner then giv me a PM it would be my pleasure to enlighten you.

Originally posted by Beyonder
No you don't get it. There was no White Crown or anything of the sort during SWII.

Connected to all life; it doesn't mean the universe: time, space, reality, matter, etc. Your so overestimating her powers it ain't even funny.


of course there was. Just cuz the concept of the White Crown was invented later doesnt mean it didnt exist before. Galactus was invented after the Marvel Universe, so I guess he didnt exist from the start?


she (jean) is the fire that ignited the first spark of creation:


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=4061106
Originally posted by Beyonder

And there we have it. He took it away and she couldn't do a damn thing about it.

there you have it. not only did he not "give" her the PF, like you claimed, he was overwhelmed by it. Yes, the mighty beyonder, pre-retcon, a being outside the multiverse itself, OVERWHELMED. Unable to handle it

Not to mention it was Rachel- a weaker host- first awakening to her powers. Yea, big surprise the Beyonder was able to drain her.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This was the best you could come up with B?

Dear boy at the end of the day what i say is supported in the comics.

I have no desire to argue with you. I pity u, really i do. Whenever youre ready to converse in an adult manner then giv me a PM it would be my pleasure to enlighten you.

Before this story recently come up, it was known IG>PF, or HOTU>PF, LT>PF. Now suddenly everything changed. I like better before. It's just annyoing that about PF, almighty, ascpet of TOAA. Why not brigning Pre Beyodner int the game again. The writers are jsut making something. If Pre Beyonder would again show up, we all would be saying, so he was always that powerful, everyhitng can change in second if writers make that and he can come up with logicall explanation, cause there can always be some explanation. I mean they could make now some mutant among most powerful cosmic beings, believe it, they would come with some logical explanation, how, why. It's jsut annyong sometimes.

Originally posted by FieryBalrog
of course there was. Just cuz the concept of the White Crown was invented later doesnt mean it didnt exist before. Galactus was invented after the Marvel Universe, so I guess he didnt exist from the start?


she (jean) is the fire that ignited the first spark of creation:

And so basically we have, the Beyonder fighting Rachael and making his statement - but still taking her powers away.

And according to your logic, the White Crown was always part of the Phoenix Force even though it was invented years after SWII. Am I not right in this? You (the reader) NEED Endsong to know that there was a White Crown. Now since your using something years later, than your going to have to take the Beyonder reckonning.

Thus, all was said and done by the Beyonder were mere illusions. Beyonder beating LT, Galactus, Death, etc. - including Rachael - was nothing but an ILLUSION. He was never that powerful - and even in his illusion Rachael lost. Even if the White Crown existed; the Beyonder never actually fought the Phoenix Force/Rachael or other high level beings.

1] Either you have Rachael losing to Beyonder - WITHOUT the White Crown because your only looking at the SW II timeline where Beyonder WASN'T RECKONNED.

2] Or you have Rachael losing to Beyonder - with the WITH the White Crown established due to Endsong which came years AFTER Beyonder WAS RECKCONNED. If it's two, than it was all an illusion.

Thus, there was no feat. Please don't bring up Pre-Reckonned Beyonder's statement about Rachael or Rachael's feat as evidence of the Phoenix Force.

"And according to your logic, the White Crown was always part of the Phoenix Force even though it was invented years after SWII. Am I not right in this? You (the reader) NEED Endsong to know that there was a White Crown. Now since your using something years later, than your going to have to take the Beyonder reckonning. "

DO YOU NOT READ BOY!! I have already told you many a time even on this thread that the white crown business existed BEFORE secret wars 2 and it was made continuity again after the 86 retcon about a year and a half ago. i have already listed comic references. Therefore the above comment is VOID.


"Thus, all was said and done by the Beyonder were mere illusions. Beyonder beating LT, Galactus, Death, etc. - including Rachael - was nothing but an ILLUSION. He was never that powerful - and even in his illusion Rachael lost. Even if the White Crown existed; the Beyonder never actually fought the Phoenix Force/Rachael or other high level beings.

1] Either you have Rachael losing to Beyonder - WITHOUT the White Crown because your only looking at the SW II timeline where Beyonder WASN'T RECKONNED.

2] Or you have Rachael losing to Beyonder - with the WITH the White Crown established due to Endsong which came years AFTER Beyonder WAS RECKCONNED. If it's two, than it was all an illusion.

Thus, there was no feat. Please don't bring up Pre-Reckonned Beyonder's statement about Rachael or Rachael's feat as evidence of the Phoenix Force."


What a load of meaningless waffle. A waste of thread space if you ask me. For the purpose of discussion the beyonder was brought in as a means of conveying the power of jean the phoenix of the white crown. It was stated that it was PRE RETCON BEYONDER when his powers were REAL. Whether you like that or not B thats what us posters were discussing, its not your place to come in and say this and that doesnt mesh well and blah blah blah.

Pre-retcon Beyonder was a multiversal level being who humbled all other abstracts LT included. He toyed with Rachel a host of Jeans Phoenix essence by giving her additional power and reclaiming it. However when he did take it back he found that that small portion of Phoenix Rachel had, had augmented Beyonders energies given to her and gave him an insight into the true Phoenix which is Jean. Beyonder couldnt handle it and he fell to his knees. END OF.

Just like Pre Crisis Supes is used in discussions against modern day characters as a tool to gauge their power in comparison so to can Beyonder be used to convey the power of the phoenix of the white crown. Tons of pre retcon characters are discussed in these forums for that very reason yet ive never seen you once try to argue against it. Why now all of sudden? It wouldnt happen to have something to do with me would it? Get over that punking you were dealt with B, are you really going to continuously follow me from Phoenix thread to phoenix thread trying to discredit mine and others' phoenix related arguments with lame off topic rantings? Thats quite lame to tell you the truth. Its quite eveident theres not much going on for you inthe real world, anyone would think you'd actually be nice to people on forums then. Oh well.

pheonix gettin the power over the abstracts is one of the crappiest piece of writing in marvel history.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
pheonix gettin the power over the abstracts is one of the crappiest piece of writing in marvel history.

Maybe it is. But, it happened.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
pheonix gettin the power over the abstracts is one of the crappiest piece of writing in marvel history.

Its not like phoenix has suddenly gotten power over them its how it was in the beginning, before the retcon and now its the case again. Even during the retcon, when phoenix was just another cosmic entity, it still had power over beings like galactus as was shown during the retcon era and also during that timethe phoenix forec was shown to be AT LEAST on a par with the likes of eternity in comics such as Xmen Forever. So there has been no massive power increase at all. I kinda like the idea of a human evolving into something greater than the abstracts as their ultimate potential. I think phoenix is a good concept. The abstracts arent perfect and lack that which makes phoenix perfect for jump-starting creation. As stated in 'The End'. A human touch. Insider knowledge basically.

no pheonix was BELOW abstracts like eternity death etc, but now shes way above them, remember, that abstracts cant create a universe and jean did that. and the very idea of the pheonix is based on chinese, eastern mithology, n it was supposed to be the embodiement of desire and all life yet unborn, hence it should not be o par with major concepts such as death, eternity and infinty, which form the basics of the universe, and pf should not be the force that created the abstracts and should not work on multiversal level, thas why i hate this new ultra powerful pheonix. besides im sick of jean grey and the pheonix anyway,

In the early 90's, there was a piece that explained Phoenix as an entity without much consciousness until she was approached by the three wizards Feron, Necrom and Merlyn and eventually bonded in particular to Feron himself (Necrom scared it away when he tried to steal the power and injured her, causing her to flee). This White Crown is a newer concept that was not prevelent before, considering Oblivion and Galactus (at different times) showed her ignorance about herself before.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no pheonix was BELOW abstracts like eternity death etc, but now shes way above them, remember, that abstracts cant create a universe and jean did that. and the very idea of the pheonix is based on chinese, eastern mithology, n it was supposed to be the embodiement of desire and all life yet unborn, hence it should not be o par with major concepts such as death, eternity and infinty, which form the basics of the universe, and pf should not be the force that created the abstracts and should not work on multiversal level, thas why i hate this new ultra powerful pheonix. besides im sick of jean grey and the pheonix anyway,

Im a phoenix fan remember you dont need to tell me what its the embodiment of or remind me its retcon power level. Youre very wrong im afraid. The retcon phoenix still had multiversal power. Its retcon origin (which is now void) had it as the sentient psychic energy of all beings in existence. It was still said to be the entity that ended the universe in the natural scheme of things and was still said to be the first spark of life. The retcon phoenix connected all the alternate universes together by projecting a doorway throug the entire multiverse. The retcon phoenix still bested Galactus more than once with no trouble and the retcon phoenix was said by eternity in Xmen forever to be the assurance of life after death. It was the force that would ultimately consume the likes of him and then create a new life. This was retcon phoenix. There has been no massive power upgrade. It status and origins have just been changed. As i said before retcon phoenix was shown to be at least on Eternitys level. At least. The original Phoenix and the one what is current continuity is above LT.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im a phoenix fan remember you dont need to tell me what its the embodiment of or remind me its retcon power level. Youre very wrong im afraid. The retcon phoenix still had multiversal power. Its retcon origin (which is now void) had it as the sentient psychic energy of all beings in existence. It was still said to be the entity that ended the universe in the natural scheme of things and was still said to be the first spark of life. The retcon phoenix connected all the alternate universes together by projecting a doorway throug the entire multiverse. The retcon phoenix still bested Galactus more than once with no trouble and the retcon phoenix was said by eternity in Xmen forever to be the assurance of life after death. It was the force that would ultimately consume the likes of him and then create a new life. This was retcon phoenix. There has been no massive power upgrade. It status and origins have just been changed. As i said before retcon phoenix was shown to be at least on Eternitys level. At least. The original Phoenix and the one what is current continuity is above LT.
Retcon Phoenix was not on eternity’s level.

When Galactus fought Pho , He said that the force had it's limits.

Again this got confirmed by Pho her self.

As for The new Phoenix she is defiantly above Eternity.

LT is still the man - like I said before X-men contradicts other marvel comics who states otherwise.

Phoenix has never been not acknowledged by entities, or LT

As for being multiversal doesn’t have much meaning: death has power over death of the multiverse: but that concept has been owned by other being before.


If she did create everything wouldn’t they ask for help, or even mention her?

Originally posted by kgkg
Retcon Phoenix was not on eternity’s level.

When Galactus fought Pho , He said that the force had it's limits.

Again this got confirmed by Pho her self.

As for The new Phoenix she is defiantly above Eternity.

LT is still the man - like I said before X-men contradicts other marvel comics who states otherwise.

Phoenix has never been not acknowledged by entities, or LT

As for being multiversal doesn’t have much meaning: death has power over death of the multiverse: but that concept has been owned by other being before.


If she did create everything wouldn’t they ask for help, or even mention her?

Retcon Phoenix was still said by eternity himself to be the fire that consumed the universe and started it again. Retcon Phoenix joint all of the alternate universes of the multiverse together. Retcon Phoenix punked galactus on more than one occassion. In my opinion that places retcon phoenix at least on par with eternity but more than likely above it.

Youre disagreeing because in one battle galactus said you draw on near limitless power? Thats ridiculous KG because even beings like LT has limits. The only being we assume doesnt is TOAA. Terms like limitless and invulnerable are thrown around in comics. Galactus said Phoenix has near limitless power and he was right for retcon phoenix, he was using the term literally. galactus is said to have limitless power but you know thats untrue, he has fluctuating power levels and phoenix is more than a match for him.


"LT is still the man - like I said before X-men contradicts other marvel comics who states otherwise.

Phoenix has never been not acknowledged by entities, or LT "

LT is still the man youre quite right. He guards the multiverse, which the primal force of creation created and is one with. The primal force of creation is second only to TOAA as stated and that has never been retconned. The retcon made phoenix into a separate cosmic entity which wasnt actually THE primal force of creation but was a part of the process. That could explain why during the retcon period things such as the infinity being sprouted up out of nowhere but who knows. The phoenix now actually IS THE primal force of creation and as such is above LT. Phoenix is ignored in the comics but that doesnt say anything about its power, because beings which are featured as obstacles for the new cosmic flavour of the month you know would get laughed off by phoenix. Its sad but its slowly changing as writers are starting to realise that the phoenix situation is here to stay. i mean as you saw for yourself kg phoenix was accredited for the creation of the universes in FF.

The primal force of creation isnt a being to overcome like LT. Its a force. Think of it like the force in Star Wars.

are you saying that pheonix force is above the tribunal, i dont believe that, and anyway, the primal force of creation bullshit might be true at the universe level but not at the multiverse level, the multiverse was not made by the pheonix force, it was made by the INFINITE BEING when it commited suicide, so dont start shootin off and saying that pheonix force is the force that created the multiverse because that was the infinite being.

Eternity, Galactus (full power), Celestials, even cubes have limitless power it’s been stated by marvel time after time.

Limitless power doesn't mean you can't be beaten(and limitless power does not equal God).


As for she created everything and the FF issue. It's is still an assumption (could be rite , but we don’t know yet).

And the when jean talked to Eternity - She wasn’t going to create a new Universe. Humans will become (eternity and the cycle goes on- Phoenix is the process that helps this cause)

- So maybe the force(is the big bang of universe that help each universe , get into another?)

FF (Reed) say Phoenix Force = Big Bang = Universe --- Not multiversal. (If you want to use that)
Big Bang = Creation of the Universe - other comic had different theory for the creation of Universe.

ya marvel keeps bring creation - But creation could mean the Universe as well - doesn't have to multiversal.

Do you have actually proof to where it says she created the Multiverse?

Being a multiversal being doesn’t mean it created the multiverse

Originally posted by radioboy121
In the early 90's, there was a piece that explained Phoenix as an entity without much consciousness until she was approached by the three wizards Feron, Necrom and Merlyn and eventually bonded in particular to Feron himself (Necrom scared it away when he tried to steal the power and injured her, causing her to flee). This White Crown is a newer concept that was not prevelent before, considering Oblivion and Galactus (at different times) showed her ignorance about herself before.

Nah thats the retcon origin which has now been made made void. Basically those wizards were looking for a power source to join the universes of the multiverse together. They found that in Phoenix. That origin got scrapped

The white crown phoenix is far from a new concept. Its an old concept of Chris C's from back in 1980. If you want evidence check out classic Xmen, issues 8, 42 and 43. Its just been cemented as continuity again by Grant M on New Xmen and endsong.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
pheonix gettin the power over the abstracts is one of the crappiest piece of writing in marvel history.

blah, blah.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nah thats the retcon origin which has now been made made void. Basically those wizards were looking for a power source to join the universes of the multiverse together. They found that in Phoenix. That origin got scrapped

Actually that was Merlyn with the matrix that made the connection of universes. Necrom was power hungry (he extracted a part of Phoenix for anti-Phoenix) and Feron saw the Phoenix as a spiritual kin. They each had a different purpose when the entity was first confronted.



I'm not completely sure what you mean by classic, unless it's those comics that rereleased the older Uncanny comics. I'm estimating this 42 and 43 is revolving around the Dark Phoenix Saga? I saw no mentioning of a White Crown and Phoenix was considered one character, not a main with avatars beneath it.

I don't see Phoenix as more powerful than LT. Being the spark of life and the bringer of death is just the PF's purpose. LT's purpose is keeping order in the multiverse.

Phoenix = Multiversal life fertilizer, and spark of the fire which burns away old growth and refertilizes the soil to grow life anew.

LT = The Owner of the Farm's Head Farm Hand laying in a canopy wearing overalls and a wifebeater with mustard and ketchup stains on it with a shotgun in one hand and a 6 pack of beer in the other, waiting for a wolf to come on to the Owner's farm and get shot in the damn head for trespassing in the Owner's yard.

Fertilizer isn't more powerful than the Farmer's Head Farm Hand. I'm sure if Jean were to get out of hand and become a universal threat LT would put her over his knee and spank her with his fingerless hands.

Agreed ill. I don't think the Phoenix is higher than the Living Tribunal.

Originally posted by radioboy121
Actually that was Merlyn with the matrix that made the connection of universes. Necrom was power hungry (he extracted a part of Phoenix for anti-Phoenix) and Feron saw the Phoenix as a spiritual kin. They each had a different purpose when the entity was first confronted.



I'm not completely sure what you mean by classic, unless it's those comics that rereleased the older Uncanny comics. I'm estimating this 42 and 43 is revolving around the Dark Phoenix Saga? I saw no mentioning of a White Crown and Phoenix was considered one character, not a main with avatars beneath it.

The x-book called 'Classic Xmen' check out those issues

Originally posted by illadelph12
I don't see Phoenix as more powerful than LT. Being the spark of life and the bringer of death is just the PF's purpose. LT's purpose is keeping order in the multiverse.

Phoenix = Multiversal life fertilizer, and spark of the fire which burns away old growth and refertilizes the soil to grow life anew.

LT = The Owner of the Farm's Head Farm Hand laying in a canopy wearing overalls and a wifebeater with mustard and ketchup stains on it with a shotgun in one hand and a 6 pack of beer in the other, waiting for a wolf to come on to the Owner's farm and get shot in the damn head for trespassing in the Owner's yard.

Fertilizer isn't more powerful than the Farmer's Head Farm Hand. I'm sure if Jean were to get out of hand and become a universal threat LT would put her over his knee and spank her with his fingerless hands.

I dont need to debate this because its stated in the comics. Have a perusal of this thread for the appropriate comic book references. Primal force of creation is second only to TOAA. end of.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I dont need to debate this because its stated in the comics. Have a perusal of this thread for the appropriate comic book references. Primal force of creation is second only to TOAA. end of.
LT has been stated as the most powerful being in the Marvel Multiverse.

KG Lt is stated as the most powerful in Marvel at the time of the retcon when phoenix was just another cosmic entity, TOAA connection was not being pushed and the phoenix was generally being ignored by anything other than X-related titles.

Before the retcon the primal force of creation is stated as second to TOAa. It is the force that creates everything. It is the force that is linked to TOAA in name and through symbology. The pre retcon phoenix is now the one which has been made current continuity. That is why endsong supported GM's reversions to Chris C's original deas and now FF has mentioned the Phoenix as being responsible for creation. Its slowly happening but other titles are starting to acknowledge phoenix in the hierarchy. Give it time and you'll see.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
KG Lt is stated as the most powerful in Marvel at the time of the retcon when phoenix was just another cosmic entity, TOAA connection was not being pushed and the phoenix was generally being ignored by anything other than X-related titles.

Before the retcon the primal force of creation is stated as second to TOAa. It is the force that creates everything. It is the force that is linked to TOAA in name and through symbology. The pre retcon phoenix is now the one which has been made current continuity. That is why endsong supported GM's reversions to Chris C's original deas and now FF has mentioned the Phoenix as being responsible for creation. Its slowly happening but other titles are starting to acknowledge phoenix in the hierarchy. Give it time and you'll see.
Ok let’s play you game:

Retcon happened when 2003(and this is just you guess?)?
- Where did it say she created everything in multiverse?
- Only evidence we have is Reed who says
Phoenix Force = Big Bang = Universe
- Eternity says Phoenix will help guide humans and create big bang.

No where does it say she created everything.

The end: LT was the man and was recognized (that shit is new)

All you basing you theories on is the watcher Words before the original retcon?

Watcher has said much bullshit stuff in the past

Like do you have evidence that’s all am asking?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
"And according to your logic, the White Crown was always part of the Phoenix Force even though it was invented years after SWII. Am I not right in this? You (the reader) NEED Endsong to know that there was a White Crown. Now since your using something years later, than your going to have to take the Beyonder reckonning. "

DO YOU NOT READ BOY!! I have already told you many a time even on this thread that the white crown business existed BEFORE secret wars 2 and it was made continuity again after the 86 retcon about a year and a half ago. i have already listed comic references. Therefore the above comment is VOID.

What storyline are you referring to

So basically give me the exact issues and X-titles. There's so many X-titles - so give me the exact one WHERE I'LL FIND THE WHITE CROWN. And I don't want any speculations to be drawn. It'd better say the White Crown along with Phoenix Force is multiverse level and it's got multiple host in each universe.



Yes, people do use Pre-Reckonned Beyonder in a fight. But that's it, we use him in a fight or gauge him in the cosmic hierarchy. Just him and him only. PRE-RECKONNED BEYONDER. If we used Beyonder, we're only talking about the cube being.

What part of don't use an illusion to justisfy other character's feat/power don't you get? If your going to use Pre-Reckonned Beyonder to gauge PF, then why aren't we using Pre-Reckonned Phoenix Force to gauge her levels in the MU?

You take one reckon, you should take the other. Beyonder's reckon clearly affects Phoenix's reckon. Also, WHERE did it say PF was a multiverse level being WITH HOST/AVATAR IN EACH UNIVERSE? White Crown, what Crown was there before SWII?

You don't see me here debating that current Beyonder can beat LT or the IG since in the SWII and totally dominated the MU. The only time your going to see that is when it say PRE-RECKONNED Beyonder Vs. etc.

Originally posted by kgkg
Ok let’s play you game:

Retcon happened when 2003(and this is just you guess?)?
- Where did it say she created everything in multiverse?
- Only evidence we have is Reed who says
Phoenix Force = Big Bang = Universe
- Eternity says Phoenix will help guide humans and create big bang

PF is nothing but a match. Spark of creation? Yeah, you have a tank of gas, you lit a match, and poof you an explosion...fire...warmth...life...etc.

Entropy's role: It starts out as a ball of gas & matter...
PF's role: ...grows hotter and hotter, clustering, forming into a star...
Eternity's role: ...it lives it's life out as a sun/star...
Death's role: ...slowly it burns out...massive explosion/supernova
Entropy's role: ...matters flying every & clouds of gas in space...
PF's role: ...these matter & gas heat up...forms a new star...

Oblivion's role: A blackhole...nothingness

It's not exact astronomy, but it explains everyone's roles better. The universe itself starts out as a big ball of gas and matter, big explosion, the universe is form, the universe ends, the universe starts over or just ends. Same thing.

PF = match to light the gas tank to start the universe.

Originally posted by Beyonder
PF is nothing but a match. Spark of creation? Yeah, you have a tank of gas, you lit a match, and poof you an explosion...fire...warmth...life...etc.

Entropy's role: It starts out as a ball of gas & matter...
PF's role: ...grows hotter and hotter, clustering, forming into a star...
Eternity's role: ...it lives it's life out as a sun/star...
Death's role: ...slowly it burns out...massive explosion/supernova
Entropy's role: ...matters flying every & clouds of gas in space...
PF's role: ...these matter & gas heat up...forms a new star...

Oblivion's role: A blackhole...nothingness

It's not exact astronomy, but it explains everyone's roles better. The universe itself starts out as a big ball of gas and matter, big explosion, the universe is form, the universe ends, the universe starts over or just ends. Same thing.

PF = match to light the gas tank to start the universe.
I see...........

Well I am waiting for GS with his rely.

Watcher words don't mean much, he said MM was the strongest in the Multiverse or some shit.

And GS is going on that assumption as a proven fact.

Other than even retcon or no recton Phoenix Force is powerful but second to God , and more powerful than LT . Nada

LT – has never, ever acknowledge Phoenix Force – universes, life has very little meaning to him. He was willing to destroy Eternity like he was nothing.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Before the retcon the primal force of creation is stated as second to TOAa. It is the force that creates everything. It is the force that is linked to TOAA in name and through symbology. The pre retcon phoenix is now the one which has been made current continuity. That is why endsong supported GM's reversions to Chris C's original deas and now FF has mentioned the Phoenix as being responsible for creation. Its slowly happening but other titles are starting to acknowledge phoenix in the hierarchy. Give it time and you'll see.

Just your speculation. There's no proof that the Primal Force of Creation is second to TOAA. If there is, bring quotes that says it's second to TOAA.



No he has never. Also, have you ever heard of the "Primal Force of Creation" ever being mentioned anywhere?

GS, speculates alot but can't prove PF is second to TOAA. LT, however, has been mentioned as second only to TOAA. I guess GS's speculations = facts...since he's such a Phoenix fan (and thus he MUST know more about the MU hierarchy & PF than us).

Watcher also recognize Apocalypse. It seems like almost everyone gets acknowledged by the Watcher.

Galactus and the Celestials ignore most people. Gods and cosmics alike often know of and or fear Galactus or the Celestial race. Who's ever given a damn really about the Watchers - even though his base is on the freaken moon.

Getting Galactus or a Celestial to notice you is a feat; getting a Watcher to notice you is like asking your grandma for money - you'll almost always get it.

...double post...

And really GS, don't make me explain the flaw in your symbolism logic again... Names mean nothing too.

Originally posted by Beyonder
PF is nothing but a match. Spark of creation? Yeah, you have a tank of gas, you lit a match, and poof you an explosion...fire...warmth...life...etc.

Entropy's role: It starts out as a ball of gas & matter...
PF's role: ...grows hotter and hotter, clustering, forming into a star...
Eternity's role: ...it lives it's life out as a sun/star...
Death's role: ...slowly it burns out...massive explosion/supernova
Entropy's role: ...matters flying every & clouds of gas in space...
PF's role: ...these matter & gas heat up...forms a new star...

Oblivion's role: A blackhole...nothingness

It's not exact astronomy, but it explains everyone's roles better. The universe itself starts out as a big ball of gas and matter, big explosion, the universe is form, the universe ends, the universe starts over or just ends. Same thing.

PF = match to light the gas tank to start the universe.


PF is also the embodiment of all life, past, present and future, but dont let that get in the way of your little analogy.

no pheonix was supposed to be the embodiement of all life YET UNBORN.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no pheonix was supposed to be the embodiement of all life YET UNBORN.

I think it's the embodiment of all life, born and unborn. I don't think that puts it above LT. Just above guys like Eternity.

no eternity was the embodiement of all the life of the inverse{hence makin it the opposite of death} pheonix was the embodiement of al desire and all life YET UNBORN, and was affectively below eternity, n thas why it bothers me to see a minor abstract become more powerful than a major one.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no eternity was the embodiement of all the life of the inverse{hence makin it the opposite of death} pheonix was the embodiement of al desire and all life YET UNBORN, and was affectively below eternity, n thas why it bothers me to see a minor abstract become more powerful than a major one.

Eternity is the embodiment of the Universe. The Phoenix is the embodiment of all life, past, present, and future, in the MULTIVERSE. That's above Eternity.

thas not how the official story started out , officially pheonix is the embodiement of all life yet unborn, and all desire, and it doesnt have power of all the life in the multiverse, i dont know of any comic where it even states that pheonix has the power off all life past present and future of the UNIVERSE much less the multiverse.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Eternity is the embodiment of the Universe. The Phoenix is the embodiment of all life, past, present, and future, in the MULTIVERSE. That's above Eternity.
Being multiversal doesn't mean above Eternity, Maybe in status but that's all.

Let's see
Death - multiversal

Order/ Chaos are also multiversal - when the multiverse was in trouble LT had fight the starbands , Order and Chaos were present.

Where ever there has been a distribution in the multiverse.

LT , Eternity , Order , Chaos are always there

Order and Chaos have multiversal effect.

But eternity is seen as a bigger gun when it comes to power.

yes but even these abstracts are basically universal level ones, the only reason they can operate on a multiverse level is because THEY HAVE COUNTERPARTS in every universe of the multiverse meaning that there are an infinite number of inifinitys deaths etc. each individual in its own universe, living tribunal is the ONLY abstract officially who does not have a counterpart, he alone guards the entire multiverse, now IF there is an INDIVIDUAL pheonix force designated to every universe in the multiverse then and only then will i believe that pheonix has some standing in the multiverse, but even then the jean grey we know as the pheonix is of this universe and hence her powers are at a universal level, not the multiversal level.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes but even these abstracts are basically universal level ones, the only reason they can operate on a multiverse level is because THEY HAVE COUNTERPARTS in every universe of the multiverse meaning that there are an infinite number of inifinitys deaths etc. each individual in its own universe, living tribunal is the ONLY abstract officially who does not have a counterpart, he alone guards the entire multiverse, now IF there is an INDIVIDUAL pheonix force designated to every universe in the multiverse then and only then will i believe that pheonix has some standing in the multiverse, but even then the jean grey we know as the pheonix is of this universe and hence her powers are at a universal level, not the multiversal level.
Not true where did you get that?

Yes there are many eternity etc.

But the concept such as death , Chaos , Order are multiversal , you don't see all the chaos, order of all universes coming together do you?

In every crisis there has always been one Chaos and Order

There is only one abstract (idea) of the multiverse.

In SSII – you saw the mighty of the multiverse
When LT was trying to lock the Starband we didn’t see Eternity, but we say Order , and Chaos but having effect on the multiverse.

Lt just rules over all these abstract and is below no one , and has never been defeated other than HOTU

It's like this:

TOAA = Farm Owner

LT = Head Farm Hand with Shotgun that oversees and protects the farm.

Phoenix = The seed that grows all the plants, the sperm and egg that concieves all the animals, and the fire that burns them all away to start the cycle all over again when necessary.

If anything, Phoenix is the worker and LT is the supervisor that sits in his office on porn websites all day until he needs to act on something.

Originally posted by illadelph12
It's like this:

TOAA = Farm Owner

LT = Head Farm Hand with Shotgun that oversees and protects the farm.

Phoenix = The seed that grows all the plants, the sperm and egg that concieves all the animals, and the fire that burns them all away to start the cycle all over again when necessary.

If anything, Phoenix is the worker and LT is the supervisor that sits in his office on porn websites all day until he needs to act on something.

I see what youre trying to do their but phoenix isnt portrayed like that at all. Its not a being that is below LT. Its a force that is one with and created everything. Its the primal force of creation. Its not a being for a power like Thasnos to see as an obstacle in his path to becoming top of the hierarchy. Its a force just like in Star Wars. Jean calls herself in uncanny xmen 135 'tiphereth'. Tiphereth is a sephiroth, a vessel for gods essence. On the kabbalah mystic tree of life which runs from the divine(the heavens) into the world of man. The crown(the white hot room which as you know is actually in the comics) is at the top of the tree and tiphereth is in the middle. As jean says in uncanny she is the 'heart and soul of the mystic tree of life'

Creation is a force that runs throughout the mystic tree of life and Jean is called in the same run "the primal force of creation"

The path between the top of the tree of life in kaballah the crown(white hot room) and tiphereth (Jean as is actually stated in the comics) is called the flight of the phoenix. In kabbalah the crown is seen as the completion of the great work, a level of consciousness that reprsents union with God. Jean who is called the phoenix of the white crown after having completed her phoenix duties as dictated to her by the Voice in the white hot room returns to it.

Claremonts original phoenix stories and Grant M's New Xmen and even Endsong are all saturated with not only kaballah symbology but jean actually calls herself tiphereth and takes the kabbalah 'flight of the phoenix' in the comics. Its foolish to ignore this all especially just on the grounds of not liking the character.

are u sayin that pheonix force = THE HEART OF THE UNIVERSE?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!? lololololololol

lmao!!!!!!

Originally posted by leonheartmm
are u sayin that pheonix force = THE HEART OF THE UNIVERSE?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!? lololololololol

lmao!!!!!!

Stop trying it because i made you look stupid on the other thread. I never said that, YOU came to that conclusion. Im not coming up with anything myself im just stating whats said in the comics, what jean refers herself to and for those not well read on the matter im giving you definitions and explanations. Simple as.

oh no u didnt, read it again dumass, im a polite person but dont get me started, ur not just writin facts, ur also representin ur viewpoint, n it looks pretty much like ur sayin that pheonix created the multiverse

Originally posted by leonheartmm
oh no u didnt, read it again dumass, im a polite person but dont get me started, ur not just writin facts, ur also representin ur viewpoint, n it looks pretty much like ur sayin that pheonix created the multiverse

No im relaying whats stated in the comics and ive listed comic book issues as evidence. On top of that ive listed definitions for all the phrases and explanations of the symbology used in the comics. Simple as.

"dumass" "pheonix"

Me a DUMBASS? Nuff said.

ok u want comic book references ?!!!!!!!!! ILL GIVE U A ****IN COMIC BOOK REFERENCE, THE BIGGEST AND MOST AUTHENTIC ONE OF EM ALL, THE ACTUAL CONVERSATIO BETWEEN PHEONIX AND JEAN GREY ON THE SHUTTLE WHERE THE PHEONIX BECAME PART OF JEAN GREY, YES IT IS A DIFFERENT ENTITY FROM THE BEGINNIG, HERE IT IS, maybe itll enlighten u n al the blind people here on some facts.












All that is...I am.


I was born with the first fire, and shall remain until the last celestial spark is extinguished.


Nothing that lives is not touched by a part of me. The stars are my children, and nothing is more cherished than those which have in turn spawned life. High above the third orb, called the Earth, a construct tumbles through the dark, while another smaller vehicle plunges recklessly towards its homeworld, fleeing the wild energies of a solar flare surging invisibly outwards from the sun.


There are noble souls within, and doomed as well. Among them, the reason for my presence.






....


The child's will far outstrips her strength. She knows this...and the beginnings of fear as well. Flesh withers under the savage onslaught. Yet her spirit soars--higher, more fiercely defiant, than ever.


...


Be not afraid. No harm is meant.


"Voice--like music in my mind--who, what, are you?!?"


The sum and substance of life and hope and dreams.


All that is, is known to me. I have known you from the moment of your conception--as I have known the universe.


You cried out for aid. I heard. I came.


"This is crazy. I'M crazy."


No more than any finite being confronting the infinite. Your form, child, is so fragile. How can you possibly endure?


"I must!"


To save your friends. And, most especially--


"That image, cast from my soul. Oh, my love, I've never seen you look so beautiful. The essence of my hopes and dreams--all that almost was--will never be. My innermost secrets--yearnings--how could you possibly know--?!"



My consciousness, my form and its ability to communicate on this plane of existence derive directly from you. They provide an...awareness of your dominant emotions and memories.


"Oh great. You mean you're a figment of my imagination?"


You jest, yet what is imagination, save the ability to conceive of that which is beyond reality. You are human. I am of creation.





"What's happening? You're changing, assuming a tangible shape. You're becoming me!"


A shell, nothing more. And only for the present. Your own physicality cannot easily be restored. For its own protection, your mind refuses to acknowledge the full extent of your injuries. Your existence is far closer to transition than you realize.


"Not dying then, already dead. Hanging on--barely--by force of will alone... What do you want of me?"


You called, child of man. And I, mother of the stars, answered. It is for you to name your heart's desire.


"And I'll get my wish, just like that. Why do I suspect that's too good to be true?"


All things have their price.


"What's mine?"


Does that matter?


"Yes!"


I am glad. Take my hands, child, that we two may become one. Your humanity, my power--bonded by passion, tempered by love. The ultimate force, at last given means to express itself.


Be warned--the fire I offer can burn as well as warm. Destroy as well as heal. And it always consumes. The glory I offer is transcendent; likewise, the danger and the flame, once taken, can never be extinguished.


"The power--it's too much--beyond comprehension. Suppose I can't handle--I'm not worthy. How can I accept?!"


You know that answer already, else you would not have summoned me.


"I'm afraid."


With good reason.


Death is the certainty--the end to all burdens, all responsibilities, life the greatest of unknowns. Each day, every moment, contains risk. Safety--and perhaps peace--can be found only in the grave. I may be salvation--or damnation--or both. Which now is your heart's desire?


"To save my friends, I'd dance with the devil himself! And I want to live."


All things are possible, child. And you may yet dance with the devil without...and the far more terrible one within...

I like Phoenix.

I'm not downplaying her role.

I'm simply putting it in Layman's terms because not everyone can follow what you are saying.

All of that is well in good GS, but it doesn't change the fact that:

TOAA is the Owner and Creator of the Tree.

LT is the Ground's Keeper and Caretaker of the Tree.

Phoenix is the sap TOAA uses to give the tree life, the fire he uses to burn the tree down and refertilize the soil, and the seeds he uses to grow it back again.

well that conversation states other wise, it tell us that pheonix is only a universal entity, n not on par with eternity.

leon, you realize that things have changed drastically since that was written, right?

yes i do, but i also realize that you shouldnt just say stupid stuff basing ur entire theory on one thing and completely overlooking the other, meaning i DONT KNOW HOW THE HELL galactic storm took that one setence where jean was SAID TO be the force of CREATION{which is a wide word with many interpretations specially since this is the marvel universe where words like this and infinity and eternity are loosely tossed about} and interpreted that as sayin that pheonix is an aspect of THE ONE ABOVE ALL, and has greater power than the heart of the universe and IS ACTUALLY THE CREATER OF THE ENTIRE MULTIVERSE, with nuthing really to back this very specific claim, all im sayin is that IF u can just take that one stupid sentence and interpret it like that {n try n insult me n my intelligence in previous threads} then i can just as well take this AUTHENTIC piece of evidence and interpret it the opposite way{even though i havent done that yet} so u should just think before tryin to put sum1 down for no reason, n poeple here just cant accept the fact that MAYBE they can be wrong.

I see what you're saying leon. I believe there was a scan provided of the "Tree" (not an actual tree, but Phoenix with all of the abstracts branching off from her), but it did not say definitively that Phoenix was the the essence of existence. Now, other abstracts (Death, Eternity, etc.) have eluded to that end, and then the End Song arc kind of backed that up, but I think to put this to rest someone needs to provide a scan that clearly states Phoenix's position.

By the way, I think she'd take Galactus, but not easily if he's fully powered and nourished (being on topic for a change). He could in theory eat away at her and fight her indefinitely because she is his power source (life energy) and she has limitless power, so he has limitless power to siphon from her and redirect at her. Kind of like what Quasar attempted to do to Surfer (view that thread), but effectively.

Originally posted by illadelph12
By the way, I think she'd take Galactus, but not easily if he's fully powered and nourished (being on topic for a change). He could in theory eat away at her and fight her indefinitely because she is his power source (life energy) and she has limitless power, so he has limitless power to siphon from her and redirect at her. Kind of like what Quasar attempted to do to Surfer (view that thread), but effectively.

I agree to a certain extent that Galactus could leech off the Phoenix, but I'm not crazy about using this means in a fight just as I do not favor the "time travel back and kill off the other character as a baby tactic. If using that leeching ability, does this mean Meggan can be a worthy contestant against Phoenix too? (she can leech of Phoenix as she's done in the past).

Everybody calm the **** down

What up KG?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You silly boy.

Here you have a hypocrite boys and girls. It goes around saying things like "pm me back when you can debate like an ADULT." Then it turns around and acts childish itself.

Watch illadelph12, he might start calling you a Phoenix hater or something to that affect.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Here you have a hypocrite boys and girls. It goes around saying things like "pm me back when you can debate like an ADULT." Then it turns around and acts childish itself.

Watch illadelph12, he might start calling you a Phoenix hater or something to that affect.

Yeah.

GS, um, well, wow.

Dogg, look, I understand what Phoenix is supposed to be. They're trying to say Jean became one with the "Holy Spirit" (to get Biblical). In the Bible, the HS is the tool God used to create all things, and the essence that is in all living things.

I get that part.

It doesn't change the fact that LT, who isn't part of any Biblical or Kabbalistic doctrine, exists in the MU, and his purpose, designated by the TOAA itself, is to be the caretaker of creation.

Phoenix was used to create it.

LT was created to look after it.

Whether or not the TOAA used the Phoenix to create LT is unknown, but LT's commissioned duty is known, regardless of his origins.

The Phoenix Force is a tool used by TOAA to bring about creation or destroy it and rebuild, just as the Holy Spirit is used by God, to simplify what you are trying to say.

LT safeguards the process.

Phoenix is the workers and machines in the factory, LT's the security guard and security system, TOAA is the CEO.

Holy Trinity?

Don't assume you're going over someone's head.

Originally posted by illadelph12


GS, um, well, wow.

Dogg, look, I understand what Phoenix is supposed to be. They're trying to say Jean became one with the "Holy Spirit" (to get Biblical). In the Bible, the HS is the tool God used to create all things, and the essence that is in all living things.

I get that part.

It doesn't change the fact that LT, who isn't part of any Biblical or Kabbalistic doctrine, exists in the MU, and his purpose, designated by the TOAA itself, is to be the caretaker of creation.

Phoenix was used to create it.

LT was created to look after it.

Whether or not the TOAA used the Phoenix to create LT is unknown, but LT's commissioned duty is known, regardless of his origins.

The Phoenix Force is a tool used by TOAA to bring about creation or destroy it and rebuild, just as the Holy Spirit is used by God, to simplify what you are trying to say.

LT safeguards the process.

Phoenix is the workers and machines in the factory, LT's the security guard and security system, TOAA is the CEO.

Holy Trinity?

Don't assume you're going over someone's head.


Thats where you're wrong Ill. Especially with regard to this part:


" It doesn't change the fact that LT, who isn't part of any Biblical or Kabbalistic doctrine, exists in the MU, and his purpose, designated by the TOAA itself, is to be the caretaker of creation."


The living tribunal is actually based on kaballah principles as well it seems. In kabaalah theres an Archangel called Metatron he is the highest Archangel more esteemed by God than even Gabriel and Michael. Metatron upon his evolution became a golden being with multiple heads each representing different concepts. Metatron resided on a throne as Gods highest host. However whereas Metatron was a host for God Phoenix as a sephiroth as actually stated in the comics is an avatar a direct incarnation of Gods presence within creation as opposed to being just imbued with power and purpose by God. This would place LT above any Phoenix host such as Rachel, Giraud etc, but not above Jean who actually is Phoenix and it is her Phoenix essence which gives power to the other Phoenix hosts. That is why she is White Phoenix of The Crown.


Did you know that Dc's presence is also of kaballic principles it seems. The Divine name of Keter(the Crown) is Eheieh (I Am) which is rendered as Pure Being,or PRESENCE. So it seems that if indeed LT is supposed to be Marvels Metatron then in Dc Vs Marvel arguments LT has a higher standing than Michael with Dc's Presence stemming from kaballah. Metatron was the first human being to complete the human path of evolution.As a result he ascended into the highest of the seventh heavens, where he became Metatron, chief of all the archangels.
Because of his love for humanity he chose to remain with and teach those below him in evolution rather than rise and reunite totally with the Godhead. He will, therefore, remain with this world to help it until all human souls reach enlightenment.He seats on the Throne,and acts as ruler and judge of the Universe for the Unknowable God.

So this last bit especially goes some way into explaining why LT is an obstacle for new cosmics to get over in their quest for power while phoenix is not. LT is a judge of the multiverse and remains within it protecting it in the name of TOAA until humanity reaches its final stage of evolution as talked about in depth in Xmen Forever. At which point they will all reach the white hot room and creation will end and then begin anew courtesy of phoenix. Phoenix is a force not a being to overcome. Its task is to make creation, maintain it until the point when humanity reaches its ultimate evolution and then end it, before making it again. Its the primal force of creation which keeps this cyclical process going on forever as willed by TOAA. This is all talked about in Xmen Forever. As you can see kaballic principles, symbology and parallels are drawn in Marvel comics and not just for phoenix but LT it seems as well.

DC's presence by name is linked to kaballah and the fact that shard of phoenix in that crossover was made from the energies of the source which is an aspect of the Presence further supports this. Kaballah principles run through both companies it seems. You just need to be well read on the matter to see just how much that is the case.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats where you're wrong Ill. Especially with regard to this part:


" It doesn't change the fact that LT, who isn't part of any Biblical or Kabbalistic doctrine, exists in the MU, and his purpose, designated by the TOAA itself, is to be the caretaker of creation."


The living tribunal is actually based on kaballah principles as well it seems. In kabaalah theres an Archangel called Metatron he is the highest Archangel more esteemed by God than even Gabriel and Michael. Metatron upon his evolution became a golden being with multiple heads each representing different concepts. Metatron resided on a throne as Gods highest host. However whereas Metatron was a host for God Phoenix as a sephiroth as actually stated in the comics is an avatar a direct incarnation of Gods presence within creation as opposed to being just imbued with power and purpose by God. This would place LT above any Phoenix host such as Rachel, Giraud etc, but not above Jean who actually is Phoenix and it is her Phoenix essence which gives power to the other Phoenix hosts. That is why she is White Phoenix of The Crown.


Did you know that Dc's presence is also of kaballic principles it seems. The Divine name of Keter(the Crown) is Eheieh (I Am) which is rendered as Pure Being,or PRESENCE. So it seems that if indeed LT is supposed to be Marvels Metatron then in Dc Vs Marvel arguments LT has a higher standing than Michael with Dc's Presence stemming from kaballah. Metatron was the first human being to complete the human path of evolution.As a result he ascended into the highest of the seventh heavens, where he became Metatron, chief of all the archangels.
Because of his love for humanity he chose to remain with and teach those below him in evolution rather than rise and reunite totally with the Godhead. He will, therefore, remain with this world to help it until all human souls reach enlightenment.He seats on the Throne,and acts as ruler and judge of the Universe for the Unknowable God.

So this last bit especially goes some way into explaining why LT is an obstacle for new cosmics to get over in their quest for power while phoenix is not. LT is a judge of the multiverse and remains within it protecting it in the name of TOAA until humanity reaches its final stage of evolution as talked about in depth in Xmen Forever. At which point they will all reach the white hot room and creation will end and then begin anew courtesy of phoenix. Phoenix is a force not a being to overcome. Its task is to make creation, maintain it until the point when humanity reaches its ultimate evolution and then end it, before making it again. Its the primal force of creation which keeps this cyclical process going on forever as willed by TOAA. This is all talked about in Xmen Forever. As you can see kaballic principles, symbology and parallels are drawn in Marvel comics and not just for phoenix but LT it seems as well.

DC's presence by name is linked to kaballah and the fact that shard of phoenix in that crossover was made from the energies of the source which is an aspect of the Presence further supports this. Kaballah principles run through both companies it seems. You just need to be well read on the matter to see just how much that is the case.

LT is based on Metatron?

Interesting concept...

Hmm, I'd have to say, that does make sense (maybe not the whole 'Metatron being Enoch that transcended' part in LT's case, but the rest). I can't really counter that, especially based on the themes in the books.

But would that really make the Phoenix superior? Metatron is like the King/Highest of the Angels (or at least the 7th Heaven Archangel, which would equal that).

Only being higher is God.

I guess if The Phoenix Force is truly the embodiment of God's power of creation, it would be.

I'll acquiesce.

Originally posted by illadelph12
LT is based on Metatron?

Interesting concept...

Hmm, I'd have to say, that does make sense (maybe not the whole 'Metatron being Enoch that transcended' part in LT's case, but the rest). I can't really counter that, especially based on the themes in the books.

But would that really make the Phoenix superior? Metatron is like the King/Highest of the Angels (or at least the 7th Heaven Archangel, which would equal that).

Only being higher is God.

I guess if The Phoenix Force is truly the embodiment of God's power of creation, it would be.

I'll acquiesce.

Heeeyyy Hoooo Heeeeyyy hooooo

That damn dancing banana!!!!!

Originally posted by illadelph12
LT is based on Metatron?

Interesting concept...

Hmm, I'd have to say, that does make sense (maybe not the whole 'Metatron being Enoch that transcended' part in LT's case, but the rest). I can't really counter that, especially based on the themes in the books.

But would that really make the Phoenix superior? Metatron is like the King/Highest of the Angels (or at least the 7th Heaven Archangel, which would equal that).

PF would only be surperior if we drew speculations. Marvel based LT on Metatron? Comics either invent their own character or base it on already existing characters.

LT is based off of Metatron...

Then I guess:

Adam Warlock <= Jesus based
Mephisto <= Mephistopholes based Or even Satan based
TOAA <= GOD based
Presence <= GOD based
High Evolutionary <= GOD based
Apocalypse <= Charles Darwin based
Shuma Gorth <= Cthuhul based
Darth Vader <= Dr. Doom based (hey look, someone's copying Marvel in turn)

The Passion Of Warlock:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tatooine/niven/142/recycleb/rb15.html




That's if it does. But we'd have to draw speculation that Primal Force Of Creation = TOAA. LT = Metatron. Fact is Marvel doesn't want to get religious. And just because a character is based off of another existing idea, does that mean it'll operate the same way? Ideas have to come from somewhere; it still doesn't mean the clone will operate or rank in its own universe the same way as the original.

No where has Marvel said LT is Metatron, or Warlock is Jesus, or Shuma Gorath is Cthuthul. They just copied a good ideal; it doesn't mean their character ranks or operates the same way as the original.

LT is said to second to TOAA. He's referred to as the cosmic judge of the multiverse. He's never referred to as Metatron. And I've seen LT in a pale skin color in his early appearances; he's not always golden - he's sometimes yellow in color.

Heck Warlock is closer to being Jesus than LT is to being Metatron.

I fully agree with Beyonder, especially on the LT and Metatron bit. LT is not equivalent to Metatron. Sorry, but he's not just him. As I said, on the "Lucifer and Michael vs these 3" thread. LT judges all of creation, while Metatron judges not only all of creation but also judges heaven.

Serously GalacticStorm, you cant incorporate beliefs from our real world into the comics world, because the comics does NOT entirely follow it. So what if the Phoenix is link to the Kaballah belief? So what if LT and Metatron are judges? I mean DC Comics is a religious-based comics but they do NOT entirely follow whats in the Bible, much less other beliefs. In the "Lucifer vs Phoenix Force thread" and "What is the Source" thread, I have listed the differences between the religious beliefs of our real world to the religious beliefs in the Comics world

I can list it here if you want.

That's ludicrous. Did you read the Spiral arc in Thor?


There's nothing to say that they don't function that way either. Do you make this argument for the Asgardians and the Olympians? They seem to function in quite similar capacities as their ancient world counterparts. What about the abstracts?


So we should include science in this as well, right? Everyone knows that comics science is only loosely based on real world science. People don't have a problem with science being included. Some have a problem when it isn't based enough in fact. Why should religion be any different?

Continuing my reference to mythology earlier, even in the ancient world, the same characters were included in different works by different authors in different cultures in different periods. The Elektra of Euripides is essentially the same as the Elektra of Sophocles, who is essentially the same Elektra of Aeschylus. All of these authors shared their insights into a character of legend. What is wrong with the same happening in comics?

It would be different if the references to Kaballah were obscure. They aren't obscure in the least. If Marvel wanted to skirt the issue, they could have just gone with Phoenix symbolism and that's it. Claremont DIRECTLY mentioned Phoenix being Tiphareth, and Morrison referred to Kether. There wasn't an avoidance on Marvel's part. They obviously wanted the association.

There's all this carrying on about Marvel avoiding religion and characters not being true to the original. What do you have to support these assumptions in the case of Phoenix? The stories show exactly the opposite: not only religious symbolism and imagery, but terms and direct references in the text. How do you explain that?

I'm tired of hearing (seeing) people wanting textual evidence in reference to Phoenix, but want to ignore what's explicitly stated in the text when it doesn't suit their purpose. People say that GS can't prove what he says is true, but I have yet to see someone set out something that explicitly states that he's wrong. Show me textual evidence that the power of the Phoenix is NOT second to that of the TOAA.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
That's ludicrous. Did you read the Spiral arc in Thor?

There's nothing to say that they don't function that way either. Do you make this argument for the Asgardians and the Olympians? They seem to function in quite similar capacities as their ancient world counterparts. What about the abstracts?

Asgardians and Olympians? Who really believes in them any more? And it says Thor, Odin, Asgard.

The judge of the Marvel Universe is Living Tribunal. Where the hell does it say METATRON? Tell me, where does it say Metatron. Tell me where it says the guy that was crucified himself to save counter-earth from evil was Jesus? Where? His name is ADAM WARLOCK! Not JESUS!

Even Asgardians and Olympians DON'T operate the same or RANK the same way as the original. Tell me when the Viking Thor can do GODBLAST, open star gates, traveled space & fight space beings, has a bother in arm named Beta Ray Bill. When did Viking Odin grow giant size, transverse time, teleported people, etc. And what about Loki being the son of Frost Giants?

Hercules strength rivaling or less than Hulk, Thor, Thing, Colossus, Juggernaut?

Even characters taken directly from existing characters don't act, operate, or rank the same way.

And when did Viking mythology have a Destroyer Armor, Mangog, Dark Gods, Enchanters, etc. in them? Since when in mythology did Asgardian gods share the Earth with Olympians, Eternals, Deviants, Egyptians gods?

Marvel Thor has a half brother named Atum the God Eater. Ever heard of him? He's also got an uncle named Set and another named Chthon.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Asgardians and Olympians? Who really believes in them any more? And it says Thor, Odin, Asgard.

The judge of the Marvel Universe is Living Tribunal. Where the hell does it say METATRON? Tell me, where does it say Metatron. Tell me where it says the guy that was crucified himself to save counter-earth from evil was Jesus? Where? His name is ADAM WARLOCK! Not JESUS!

Even Asgardians and Olympians DON'T operate the same or RANK the same way as the original. Tell me when the Viking Thor can do GODBLAST, open star gates, traveled space & fight space beings, has a bother in arm named Beta Ray Bill. When did Viking Odin grow giant size, transverse time, teleported people, etc. And what about Loki being the son of Frost Giants?

Hercules strength rivaling or less than Hulk, Thor, Thing, Colossus, Juggernaut?

Even characters taken directly from existing characters don't act, operate, or rank the same way.

And when did Viking mythology have a Destroyer Armor, Mangog, Dark Gods, Enchanters, etc. in them? Since when in mythology did Asgardian gods share the Earth with Olympians, Eternals, Deviants, Egyptians gods?

Marvel Thor has a half brother named Atum the God Eater. Ever heard of him? He's also got an uncle named Set and another named Chthon.

That was so lame. You havent really addressed CF's points at all. You did that in the other phoenix thread as well. Seems you've run out of steam cos your last few posts on these phoenix threads have changed nothing to be honest.

Its bed time for me anyway but when i come on here tomorrow evening i'll gladly pick holes in your post. Nite nite

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
So we should include science in this as well, right? Everyone knows that comics science is only loosely based on real world science. People don't have a problem with science being included. Some have a problem when it isn't based enough in fact. Why should religion be any different?

Sorry, but I fail to see your point in here. Comics science does not entirely follow Real World Science, well... you realize that it only supports my argument, right? because thats also what Im trying to say about Religion. I mean do you see people incorporating Real World Science into Comic world science, unlike you people do to Religion?

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
It would be different if the references to Kaballah were obscure. They aren't obscure in the least. If Marvel wanted to skirt the issue, they could have just gone with Phoenix symbolism and that's it. Claremont DIRECTLY mentioned Phoenix being Tiphareth, and Morrison referred to Kether. There wasn't an avoidance on Marvel's part. They obviously wanted the association.

There's all this carrying on about Marvel avoiding religion and characters not being true to the original. What do you have to support these assumptions in the case of Phoenix? The stories show exactly the opposite: not only religious symbolism and imagery, but terms and direct references in the text. How do you explain that?

Direct references in the text? Claremont directly mentioning Phoenix being Tiphereth and references about Keter? Sorry but this doesnt say much. The Archangel Michael was based off a REAL Archangel Michael and Carey DIRECTLY mentions him as a vessel for God's divine power, which he also directly referenced from the texts. But even with all of this, can we really consider the comic character Michael COMPLETELY similar to the real Michael? Because as far as Im concerned comic Michael, even with God's power, only stalemates Satan, while real Michael, as was said in the scriptures, fought Satan 1 on 1 before and emerged victorious.

You want another example? Direct references from the texts in our real world, huh? Well Lucifer is also based off the REAL Lucifer(Satan), and Carey also DIRECTLY mentioned him as the greatest and most beautiful of the archangels and rebelled against God. Both of which he also directly referenced, NOT only from other scriptures, but also from the Bible itself. But even with that, comic Lucifer is still not completely similar to real Lucifer, because real Lucifer should never be above the Holy Spirit and should never be the 2nd most powerful being in creation, which comic Lucifer is. Comic Lucifer also abandoned Hell, which real Lucifer didnt.

Sorry, but you can link a comic character's origin into the origin of a real world character. But linking their strength/powers and who's above who, is a totally different case.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
I'm tired of hearing (seeing) people wanting textual evidence in reference to Phoenix, but want to ignore what's explicitly stated in the text when it doesn't suit their purpose. People say that GS can't prove what he says is true, but I have yet to see someone set out something that explicitly states that he's wrong. Show me textual evidence that the power of the Phoenix is NOT second to that of the TOAA.

Do you see me contesting GalacticStorm's statements in this thread and other Phoenix thread(except for the Lucifer vs Phoenix Force thread)? Heck, do you even see me participating at all? Ive already admitted in another thread that GS's and markolin's arguments about the ranking of Phoenix in the Marvel Hierarchy cant be completely overlooked because they did make some good points about it. I still dont completely agree with everything they say, but they did made some convincing points. Im open for convincing here.

But if he or someone starts bringing up concepts and beliefs in our real into the comic world and regards it as the absolute truth when the comics shows it otherwise, I dont think I would just sit idly and let it pass. I mean, no offense to you, GS and other Phoenix Fans, but incorporating real world beliefs and concepts into the comics world, makes me think that you dont have what it takes to keep convincing people of whats shown in the comics(this is a comics forum, right?). Instead you need to bring external sources to help prove your point.

You're right-you totally miss the point. I'm not quite sure how I can help you understand. Real world science does exist in comics. Let's see mutations, radiation...any number of the numerous aspects of science appear in comics. They exist. If you don't see that, then I don't know what to say. What is a mutation but biology? Do I really need to address this any further. It's there. YES, I see real world science incorporated in comic science. You'd have to be blind not to.


Did you even think about this statement before you wrote it? So I guess that anything that is written in comics, anything that is stated about a character or a situation doesn't mean anything.


This argument is based on a supposition that one considers what the Bible says to be true. How can that be proven? What about earlier source material for these characters? Can we be sure that the concepts of Satan and Lucifer conform to their near Eastern counterparts in the original material.

This is where I have a problem with the arguments here. You say that what's stated in text doesn't necessarily mean anything, but yet you refer to another source, and apparently that is accurate. What is the standard as to the accuracy and verity of what one reads?

As far as Michael and Lucifer being represented in DC as well as the Bible, there don't really seem to be as many inconsistencies as you think. I'm basing this on what you've stated. For example, you reference the fight where Michael is victorious over Lucifer. According to the Bible, that hasn't happened yet, as it's in Revelation. How can the comics conflict with something that hasn't taken place? Not to mention the fact that we see in the Bible where people read one thing and interpret it a certain way, but it ends up being fulfilled in another way. The idea of the Messiah is an example.


Of course it's different. There characters don't exist in a vacuum, however. The problem is that you are not willing to see what is there. If DC writes Lucifer and Michael in a certain way, and states that there powers are such and such and this is their function, that's fine. If they want to tweak what a character does and how they function in the cosmology of the DC universe, that's fine as well. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem is that Marvel has set out that a certain character is based on this religion, and fulfills this particular role and exhibits these powers. There's nothing wrong with that either. You're comparing apples and oranges. Perhaps certain characters don't conform to earlier representation. Perhaps some do. What's the problem?




Show me where the comics state or demonstrate that Phoenix and Kaballah have no connection in the MU. You keep saying that you can't bring religion in. Why? It's stated in black and white. You have yet to disprove in this particular instance that there the connection referenced in the comics doesn't exist.

This is some of the worst circular logic I've ever seen. I can't reference religion in comics, yet you reference Lucifer and Michael. If a religious character appears in comics, that doesn't mean that there power is the same, although you mention that Michael is still a vessel for the power of God. Direct references to the text mean nothing, yet you commonly referred to to the power of the characters and what transferred to comics.

I referred to Elektra, Thor and others for a reason. Characters are often used by multiple authors. Each author interprets a character in their own way. So what? Whether written by Sophocles, Aeschylus or Euripides, Elektra is still Elektra. Some details of her story may vary, but she is essentially the same character. That's what literature is all about. It's never been about taking a character from one work, and inserting them in another work with no change. It's about ideas, concepts. Those are what move from work to work. The character is only a vehicle. That's the case with Phoenix and Kaballah in the MU. References and direct statements by the writers establish what is canon. Whether you like something or not has no effect on what is printed. Unless there is something else that's printed to say that Phoenix and Kaballah have no meaning in the context of Marvel, what is written stands. Of course, that brings us back to whatever is stated in the text not meaning anything...unless it says what we want it to

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
You're right-you totally miss the point. I'm not quite sure how I can help you understand. Real world science does exist in comics. Let's see mutations, radiation...any number of the numerous aspects of science appear in comics. They exist. If you don't see that, then I don't know what to say. What is a mutation but biology? Do I really need to address this any further. It's there. YES, I see real world science incorporated in comic science. You'd have to be blind not to.

And you seem to miss the point as well. Yes , real world science does exist in comics world. BUT do all of it really exist or is relevant to a world where NORMAL human beings gets to have superpowers and can destroys cities and such with it?

Mutation? Do you seriously think that the mutations in the comics world will happen in our world? Oh yeah, we will have superpowers as well, right? :rolleyes

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame Did you even think about this statement before you wrote it? So I guess that anything that is written in comics, anything that is stated about a character or a situation doesn't mean anything.


This argument is based on a supposition that one considers what the Bible says to be true. How can that be proven? What about earlier source material for these characters? Can we be sure that the concepts of Satan and Lucifer conform to their near Eastern counterparts in the original material.

This is where I have a problem with the arguments here. You say that what's stated in text doesn't necessarily mean anything, but yet you refer to another source, and apparently that is accurate. What is the standard as to the accuracy and verity of what one reads?

As far as Michael and Lucifer being represented in DC as well as the Bible, there don't really seem to be as many inconsistencies as you think. I'm basing this on what you've stated. For example, you reference the fight where Michael is victorious over Lucifer. According to the Bible, that hasn't happened yet, as it's in Revelation. How can the comics conflict with something that hasn't taken place? Not to mention the fact that we see in the Bible where people read one thing and interpret it a certain way, but it ends up being fulfilled in another way. The idea of the Messiah is an example.


Of course it's different. There characters don't exist in a vacuum, however. The problem is that you are not willing to see what is there. If DC writes Lucifer and Michael in a certain way, and states that there powers are such and such and this is their function, that's fine. If they want to tweak what a character does and how they function in the cosmology of the DC universe, that's fine as well. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem is that Marvel has set out that a certain character is based on this religion, and fulfills this particular role and exhibits these powers. There's nothing wrong with that either. You're comparing apples and oranges. Perhaps certain characters don't conform to earlier representation. Perhaps some do. What's the problem?

Show me where the comics state or demonstrate that Phoenix and Kaballah have no connection in the MU. You keep saying that you can't bring religion in. Why? It's stated in black and white. You have yet to disprove in this particular instance that there the connection referenced in the comics doesn't exist.

This is some of the worst circular logic I've ever seen. I can't reference religion in comics, yet you reference Lucifer and Michael. If a religious character appears in comics, that doesn't mean that there power is the same, although you mention that Michael is still a vessel for the power of God. Direct references to the text mean nothing, yet you commonly referred to to the power of the characters and what transferred to comics.

Stop putting words on my mouth. I didnt said that direct references to the text doesnt mean ANYTHING. I just said that it doesnt mean MUCH. Read my post again.

Lol! Some of the worst circular logic youve ever seen? Or you just didnt bother to really understand what Im saying? I made that examples about Michael and Lucifer to show you that even if some characters is based off a real character, concept, symbology, it doesnt necessarily mean that EVERYTHING about it should be incorporated to that comic character. Comic Lucifer, like real Lucifer, was said to have been the greatest and most beautiful of the angels. It is the same about Phoenix being referred to as Tipereth, like the real Tipereth. BUT the point I was trying to make is, does everything about the real Tipereth included in the comic Tipereth? Just like, does everything about the real Lucifer is included in the comic Lucifer?

I mean you can talk about their origins and link it and stuff, but can you seriously assure me that EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING about the real Tipereth is included in the comic Tipereth? How about their strength/powers? Because Lucifer and Michael's origins are the same as the real ones, but their strength is different.

Does MU DIRECTLY states that because of Jean being Tipereth and because of her being based off the Kaballah Symbology, she should be stronger than everyone in the MU, when 98% of the characters is not based off this Kaballah symbology, much less Religion itself? kinda unfair, isnt it?

And about Michael fighting Satan. If you thoroughly read the Bible, you'll see it. Its in "Jude 1:9"

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame I referred to Elektra, Thor and others for a reason. Characters are often used by multiple authors. Each author interprets a character in their own way. So what? Whether written by Sophocles, Aeschylus or Euripides, Elektra is still Elektra. Some details of her story may vary, but she is essentially the same character. That's what literature is all about. It's never been about taking a character from one work, and inserting them in another work with no change. It's about ideas, concepts. Those are what move from work to work. The character is only a vehicle. That's the case with Phoenix and Kaballah in the MU. References and direct statements by the writers establish what is canon. Whether you like something or not has no effect on what is printed. Unless there is something else that's printed to say that Phoenix and Kaballah have no meaning in the context of Marvel, what is written stands. Of course, that brings us back to whatever is stated in the text not meaning anything...unless it says what we want it to


Lol!! your basically agreeing with me in here. Yes, a certain character is interpreted by different authors in their own different ways. Yes, some details in a certain character may vary. Yes, literature has never been about taking a character from one work, and inserting them in another work with no change. EXACTLY, thats basically my point all along. A character can be base off another character, cool. But it does not mean that everything about the original character is in the new character. Phoenix was based off the Kaballah Symbology, but it does not mean that everything about the symbology is in Phoenix.

See, I have no problem with you guys referencing The Watcher who said that Phoenix is second only to the Creator, but then you guys started bringing up this symbology from our real world into the comics just to prove that Phoenix is the strongest in MU? Damn, why dont you just rely on what the Watcher has said? Because that was in the comics which happens to be what were discussing in this entire forum and he atleast didnt based off his claims on some symbology.

forget the theological talk Phoenix wins

Again, so what? If youve read my last 2 posts, Ive basically agreed with the both of you that basing off a certain character to another character is alright. The only problem I have with you is, although you have brought proof about Phoeinix paralleling Tipereth and the Kaballah Symbology, you havent bought any proof that says that because of this relation, it means that the Phoenix is above anyone in MU.

You posted the quotes, the scans, etc on this thread and other threads about Phoenix's relation to the Kaballah symbology, you have linked Phoenix's origins, functions, and even her appearance to the Tipereth of the Kaballah Symbology, that's cool. But that is the farthest we can go. Paralleling Phoenix's strength/powers to the real Tipereth is ENTIRELY ANOTHER case, and you'll have to bring NEW proof of that, which you have yet to offer.

The comics basically agrees with that. Prime examples of that are Michael and Lucifer. Michael, like the real Michael, was said to be the champion of God and the vessel for God's power. Heck, even their appearance, if we base it on other scriptures, are the same. Real Michael was said to have long hair whose color is Gold that shines very brightly, Comic Michael's appearance are also like that, if you read the Lucifer series.

Lucifer, like the real Lucifer, was said to be the greatest and most beautiful of the angels before his fall. He rebelled against God and was cast down to hell to rule it.

In terms of origins and functions, Michael and Lucifer, just like your Phoenix's linkage to the Tipereth of the Kaballah Symbology, were also based off the real Michael and Lucifer.

But as the comics shows us so far, paralleling their strengths/powers are a totally different case(their personalities are also one, but its irrelevant to the topic at hand). The comic Michael can only at best stalemate Lucifer, while real Michael has defeated Lucifer before. Comic Lucifer, was said to be the most powerful being next to the creator, while the real Lucifer should never be even close to that.

You see my point? A character may be based off a certain character but its not ENTIRELY based off it (and it just so happens that Phoenix's powers are one of the things that wasnt based off the real Tipereth, atleast until you can give us proof of that). You and Cosmic Flame have agreed with me on that.

The Word in comics is also a prime example. Comic Word's origins are the same as real Word, in that they came into existence when God spoke his first words. But Comic Word's strength are obviously very different than the real Word. Comic Word was beaten by a mere Earth Elemental in the Swamp Thing series. He was beaten by an Earthling. NUFF SAID.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I did in the beginning and still I would if i was allowed to. Why dont you say that to Beyonder and the like.

I dont need to reprimand Beyonder, kgkg and etc. Thats your job. I mean your the one whose discussing it with them, not me. If they still dont believe you, then thats theyre choice. What matters is that youve made your point and based it off strictly in the comics, thats it. I also had a discussion with Beyonder about who's stronger between LT and Lucifer, but do you see him and others completely agreeing with me afterwards? No. Am I dissapointed because of that? Hell NO!!!. Ive made my case about Lucifer in a relevant manner by basing all my arguments strictly in the comics. That alone Im contented with. I dont need to discuss it with them every single time Lucifer and/or LT are mentioned.

i agree about using relative power levels...after all, outside of creation, god's most impressive biblical feats are ABSOLUTLEY PUNY. any decent magician could have pulled them off.

and synchro, why should biblical lucifer not be second to the creator? i certainly can't think of any beings that would be stronger (referenced in the bible).