Phoenix Vs Marvel Universe

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GalacticStorm

long pig
Now you're just opening yourself up for a flaming. sad

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by long pig
Now you're just opening yourself up for a flaming. sad

Read it LP. It all makes sense just trust me.

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Read it LP. It all makes sense just trust me.

You explained that to me month ago, but I still thinks that is stupid with what Marvel came up with. They should change back.

Swanky-Tuna
No matter how you slice it, it tastes like a moderately interesting concept turned into plain boring.

kevdude
so your saying The Phoenix Force is a part of DC's God, The Source???

Xplosive
Originally posted by kevdude
so your saying The Phoenix Force is a part of DC's God, The Source???

No, he is saying that PF is part or aspect of Marvel TOAA.

Xplosive
And GS, it's very annoying about PF, many of us find that really bad and annoying. I would like PF to be not allowed anymore here like DBZ characeter aren't allowed.

long pig
Tastes like SPAM. Not bad, but definatly not good.

leonheartmm
i MIGHT believe that with the new retcon n stuff, pheonix created the abstracts of the universe{not the multiverse} at one point in time and that her base of operations is the multiverse{but she doesnt have power over it} but sayin that she is an aspect of the ONE ABOVE ALL is laughable, franklin richards has achieved greater feats than the pheonix force, please, dont give the pheonix that much credit.

Xplosive
Originally posted by leonheartmm
franklin richards has achieved greater feats than the pheonix force, please, dont give the pheonix that much credit.

Which are?
I am sure GalacticStorm will find greater feat on PF than Franklin Richards has achieved.

leonheartmm
nope, i dont think so, franklin richards has created MANY alternate universes without any1 elses's help or power simultaneously without even realizing it or without getting weaker or anythin at all. whats pheonix done? recreate a universe? anyway franklin had to also create all the abstracts in those universes too, so do the math, franklin is still more powerful than pheonix, n this is the current potential franklin.

Xplosive
Originally posted by leonheartmm
nope, i dont think so, franklin richards has created MANY alternate universes without any1 elses's help or power simultaneously without even realizing it or without getting weaker or anythin at all. whats pheonix done? recreate a universe? anyway franklin had to also create all the abstracts in those universes too, so do the math, franklin is still more powerful than pheonix, n this is the current potential franklin.

Come on, be serious and don't be stupid. PF is aspect of TOAA, and you will say FR is still more powerful (and you said like it's nothing for Richards). I hate PF beacuse of that, because of such writing, but it's written that way and you can't change it, it's fact. I can accept Franklin is more powerful than Galactus (maby much more), but Franklin is nothing to PF.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Xplosive
Come on, be serious and don't be stupid. PF is aspect of TOAA, and you will say FR is still more powerful (and you said like it's nothing for Richards). I hate PF beacuse of that, because of such writing, but it's written that way and you can't change it, it's fact. I can accept Franklin is more powerful than Galactus (maby much more), but Franklin is nothing to PF.

I don't think he's more powerful than Big G... maybe...

leonheartmm
pheonix is not an aspect of the one above all, where did u read that? are U stupid? and i dont care about people heres who have ANTI RICHARDS complex, if u look at the power of pheonix force by what the pheonix has done than look at franklin richards by what he has done in the past, and he has DEFINATELY created MANY SIMULTANEOUS alternate full size universes, which proves that he is MUCH MUCH more poweful than galactus and more than the pheonix force.

leonheartmm
im not changin any writin even if it sucks, im acceptin pheonix's power by lookin at what jean has supposedly done.

Xplosive
Originally posted by leonheartmm
pheonix is not an aspect of the one above all, where did u read that? are U stupid? and i dont care about people heres who have ANTI RICHARDS complex, if u look at the power of pheonix force by what the pheonix has done than look at franklin richards by what he has done in the past, and he has DEFINATELY created MANY SIMULTANEOUS alternate full size universes, which proves that he is MUCH MUCH more poweful than galactus and more than the pheonix force.

Are you supid? FR more powerful than primal force of creation. FR is nothing to PF. Franklin Ricahrds is alive because of FP.

leonheartmm
franklin richards can has CREATED, CREATION ITSELF when he made those universes

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by leonheartmm
franklin richards can has CREATED, CREATION ITSELF when he made those universes

Pocket universes. Temporary ones, at that.

Xplosive
Originally posted by leonheartmm
Franklin Richards can has CREATED, CREATION ITSELF when he made those universes

FR is alive because of PF. FR is nothing to primal force of creation. Why do we even compare those two.

hoorayforpeepee
leon has a thing for franklin...plugs him on damn near any thread involving cosmics.

PF: created the multiverse and the abstracts
FR: created POCKET (miniature) TEMPORARY universes, none of which have abstracts

leonheartmm
BECAUSE franklin richards has done more impressive stuff than her like oh lemme think CREATE MANY ****IN UNIVERSES BY HIMSELF, it doesnt matter who created who, thanos was created by the multiverse in a sinngle pathetic universe which in itself was created by the pheonix and eternity and death and order and chaos, yet he killed eternity once and another time destroyed the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE INCLUDIN THE TRIBUNAL.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by leonheartmm
BECAUSE franklin richards has done more impressive stuff than her like oh lemme think CREATE MANY ****IN UNIVERSES BY HIMSELF, it doesnt matter who created who, thanos was created by the multiverse in a sinngle pathetic universe which in itself was created by the pheonix and eternity and death and order and chaos, yet he killed eternity once and another time destroyed the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE INCLUDIN THE TRIBUNAL.

Apparently, the "Phoenix", or the force of creation, created the multiverse, leon.

leonheartmm
the only POCKET universe he created was the first one, all the other ones after that were full sized and they were NOT TEMPORARY what makes u think they were temporary? looks like ur just tryin to put me down, and what makes u think they dont have abstracts? u aint even got anythin that slightly leads to that conclusion, u should realize that. and PF did NOT CREATE the multiverse, that was the infinite being who did that.

Xplosive
Originally posted by leonheartmm
another time destroyed the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE INCLUDIN THE TRIBUNAL.

And including Richards.
FR is one of the most powerful beings ever, but PF, LT are more powerful.

Lord S
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
http://webhome.idirect.com/~sprasher/images/blah.gif
LT cages her like a canary and bitchslaps her to destruction.

End of story.

kgkg
Originally posted by leonheartmm
BECAUSE franklin richards has done more impressive stuff than her like oh lemme think CREATE MANY ****IN UNIVERSES BY HIMSELF, it doesnt matter who created who, thanos was created by the multiverse in a sinngle pathetic universe which in itself was created by the pheonix and eternity and death and order and chaos, yet he killed eternity once and another time destroyed the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE INCLUDIN THE TRIBUNAL.
Issue numbers#

Destroyed the multiverse? When was this? #?

Xplosive
Originally posted by kgkg
Issue numbers#

Destroyed the multiverse? When was this? #?

I think he meant Thanos with HOTU destroyed the Multiverse.

kgkg
Originally posted by Xplosive
I think he meant Thanos with HOTU destroyed the Multiverse.
ohhhhh that makes more sense confused

Lord S
Originally posted by Xplosive
I think he meant Thanos with HOTU destroyed the Multiverse. There's no clear-cut answer for this...some people say it was the Multiverse, others say it was just 616.

leonheartmm
no he did destroy the entire multiverse, im sure. and yes, tribunal is more powerful than the current potential franklin richards, but i find no reason to believe that pheonix force is more powerful than franklin.

GalacticStorm

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Lord S
There's no clear-cut answer for this...some people say it was the Multiverse, others say it was just 616.

If Thanos destroyed the entire marvel multiverse then surely he would have destroyed Adam Warlock along with it?

leonheartmm

hoorayforpeepee
when, pray tell, did he do that?

leonheartmm
u mean create new universes? well he went on a kinda trip to alternate universes with a couple of friends{includin harvard the duck lol} i dont really remember what the purpose was, but he journeyed throuh many universes, in the end he and his buddies found out that it was actually FRANKLIN who was creatin all these universes they were journeyin through. franklin didnt even know it himself before, meaning he hadnt even realized when he had created them, just goes to show how easy it is for franklin.

Lord S
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If Thanos destroyed the entire marvel multiverse then surely he would have destroyed Adam Warlock along with it? Ahh, but I believe the way it is sold is that Adam Warlock is separate from this reality...like the pre-retcon Beyonder was supposedly beyond the multiverse...like DC is separate from Marvel, DBZ is separate, etc. Where Warlock resides is up in the air, but 'apart from this reality' should mean he's beyond the multiverse.

That's how I interpret it...I may be wrong, but how can Thanos wipe out LT and have the multiverse still exist? Unless he instantly delegated the role and responsibility of LT, as judge, onto himself as he destroyed him, cause LT was a servant of the one who is above all...and Thanos had become that.

So maybe it was just 616.

GalacticStorm
If you read my post properly before contributing you'll see that the M'kraan crystal is a multiversal threat, it blinks out the multiversal. Jean contained this multiversal wave with her power and then re-energised the energy matrix which contains that multiversal power. Ive given you an issue reference number so theres no debating that. Check up on it or except it and move on.


"and franklin richards power far exceeds that of the damn celestials no celestial has created universes, not even close, they were punked by super ego.

The celestials stated as is common knowledge on these forums that franklin would one day come to equal them in power. Deal with it. The celestials are an immensely powerful and they can juggle planets. Creating a POCKET universe as franklin does is certainly achieveable by them. I think youre under estimating them. Try reading up on them.

" and i would like to see where i a fanastic four comic, it says that the pheonix force created the entire multiverse."

Well youre obviously not a regular F4 reader or you would have read the issue which states phoenix is responsible for creation. Its in one of the last 6 issues. PM KG he had a look at it after i told him about it.


"uhm im sure u didnt hear what i told u, the onle POCKET universe franklin created was the first one he created after the onslaught saga, but every universe after that was a FULL sized one, with all its abstracts and size, and he has created MANY of these PERMANENT FULL SIZED universes."


Dont assume that because youre so obviously a massive fan of FR that other posters dont know anything about him. Franklin is capable of creating pocket universes which are far from the size of normal universes. Heres a link to his bio:

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/r/richardsfranklin.htm

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Lord S
Ahh, but I believe the way it is sold is that Adam Warlock is separate from this reality...like the pre-retcon Beyonder was supposedly beyond the multiverse...like DC is separate from Marvel, DBZ is separate, etc. Where Warlock resides is up in the air, but 'apart from this reality' should mean he's beyond the multiverse.

That's how I interpret it...I may be wrong, but how can Thanos wipe out LT and have the multiverse still exist? Unless he instantly delegated the role and responsibility of LT, as judge, onto himself as he destroyed him, cause LT was a servant of the one who is above all...and Thanos had become that.

So maybe it was just 616.

A reality represents a single universe. Adam warlock isnt seperate from all realities of the multiverse. Adam asks Thanos how is it that the UNIVERSE came to end when he reappears into 616 through a mystic portal. Thanos destroyed the entire universe and the 616 reality, not the multiverse.

leonheartmm
its not comon knowledge, its bullshit, a celestial could not create a pocket universe AND COULD NOT CREATE A FULL SIZED UNIVERSE, stop sayin that all he created was a pocket universe

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by leonheartmm
its not comon knowledge, its bullshit, a celestial could not create a pocket universe AND COULD NOT CREATE A FULL SIZED UNIVERSE, stop sayin that all he created was a pocket universe

Just how old are you? roll eyes (sarcastic)

GalacticStorm
Ive shown you his bio. Franklin cant create proper universe merely pocket ones. That smade quite clear in the comics.

Heres a link to the celestials bios:

http://www.marveldirectory.com/alienraces/celestials.htm

leonheartmm
ive sen the celestials bio, n franklin's too, both of emm have done more feats since that bio was updated, those bios are old, just like pheonix's bio was old which initially only gave her the power of all desire and all life YET UNBORN.

leonheartmm
im gonna b 17 years old in july, why?

leonheartmm
just a lil sumthin to enlighten u all the first conversation between the pheonix and jean, and thus the most authentic info, not to mention the first appearance of the seperate entity called pheonix force.



All that is...I am.


I was born with the first fire, and shall remain until the last celestial spark is extinguished.


Nothing that lives is not touched by a part of me. The stars are my children, and nothing is more cherished than those which have in turn spawned life. High above the third orb, called the Earth, a construct tumbles through the dark, while another smaller vehicle plunges recklessly towards its homeworld, fleeing the wild energies of a solar flare surging invisibly outwards from the sun.


There are noble souls within, and doomed as well. Among them, the reason for my presence.






....


The child's will far outstrips her strength. She knows this...and the beginnings of fear as well. Flesh withers under the savage onslaught. Yet her spirit soars--higher, more fiercely defiant, than ever.


...


Be not afraid. No harm is meant.


"Voice--like music in my mind--who, what, are you?!?"


The sum and substance of life and hope and dreams.


All that is, is known to me. I have known you from the moment of your conception--as I have known the universe.


You cried out for aid. I heard. I came.


"This is crazy. I'M crazy."


No more than any finite being confronting the infinite. Your form, child, is so fragile. How can you possibly endure?


"I must!"


To save your friends. And, most especially--


"That image, cast from my soul. Oh, my love, I've never seen you look so beautiful. The essence of my hopes and dreams--all that almost was--will never be. My innermost secrets--yearnings--how could you possibly know--?!"



My consciousness, my form and its ability to communicate on this plane of existence derive directly from you. They provide an...awareness of your dominant emotions and memories.


"Oh great. You mean you're a figment of my imagination?"


You jest, yet what is imagination, save the ability to conceive of that which is beyond reality. You are human. I am of creation.





"What's happening? You're changing, assuming a tangible shape. You're becoming me!"


A shell, nothing more. And only for the present. Your own physicality cannot easily be restored. For its own protection, your mind refuses to acknowledge the full extent of your injuries. Your existence is far closer to transition than you realize.


"Not dying then, already dead. Hanging on--barely--by force of will alone... What do you want of me?"


You called, child of man. And I, mother of the stars, answered. It is for you to name your heart's desire.


"And I'll get my wish, just like that. Why do I suspect that's too good to be true?"


All things have their price.


"What's mine?"


Does that matter?


"Yes!"


I am glad. Take my hands, child, that we two may become one. Your humanity, my power--bonded by passion, tempered by love. The ultimate force, at last given means to express itself.


Be warned--the fire I offer can burn as well as warm. Destroy as well as heal. And it always consumes. The glory I offer is transcendent; likewise, the danger and the flame, once taken, can never be extinguished.


"The power--it's too much--beyond comprehension. Suppose I can't handle--I'm not worthy. How can I accept?!"


You know that answer already, else you would not have summoned me.


"I'm afraid."


With good reason.


Death is the certainty--the end to all burdens, all responsibilities, life the greatest of unknowns. Each day, every moment, contains risk. Safety--and perhaps peace--can be found only in the grave. I may be salvation--or damnation--or both. Which now is your heart's desire?


"To save my friends, I'd dance with the devil himself! And I want to live."


All things are possible, child. And you may yet dance with the devil without...and the far more terrible one within...

Ethereal
Also, the celestials are not known to have two powers.

Time travel/ time tinkering and travel between universes in the multiverse

GalacticStorm

Beyonder
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
A reality represents a single universe. Adam warlock isnt seperate from all realities of the multiverse. Adam asks Thanos how is it that the UNIVERSE came to end when he reappears into 616 through a mystic portal. Thanos destroyed the entire universe and the 616 reality, not the multiverse.


Thanos also says TIME & SPACE does NOT EXIST any more. Guess what, their outside of time and space. Phoenix was only outside of time.

Thanos also destroys LT which you've yet to prove PF is more powerful than.

Oh, and where is PF in that series again? LT, Eternity, Infinity, etc. showed up. Where was it's so called "Creator" the Phoenix Force. Not even one mentioning of PF.

GalacticStorm
One realities time and space didnt exist anymore. Not a multiverses. If that was the case as aforementioned AdamW would have died as well.

Phoenixes look down upon our plane of existence from the white hot room which is beyond creation.

You like going around in circles dont you? Ive already answered this point you keep dragging up over and over. Phoenix is the primal force of creation as stated by the watcher, as stated by eternity as shown in the comics with a connection to TOAA heavily suggested through the saturation of symbology, through parallels drawn by the writers between Phoenixes actions and deeds and the workings of Kabballah and through Phoenix calling herself Tiphereth and the comics stating she is of the Crown another kaballah term for a vessel of Gods essence.

The Phoenix is a force not a being to overcome like LT and so on, It exists outside of our plane of reality and manifests itself in creation only to perform acts of microsurgery from within. For example the healing of the M'kraan crystal, the purging of the Inferno and the healing and restructuring of the 616 reality. As ive said liken it to the force in Star wars. Its LT's job to watch over the multiverse and confront threats from within. The phoenix 'is creation' and heals and tends to that which would prevent the cycle of life within existence. The death and rebirth of creation.

No. Not one mentioning of phoenix but this says nothing about its power or status because beings such as eternity an galactus are shown and it is now common knowledge that phoenix gave birth to such entites. Xmen adventures 12 shows that phoenix allowed Galan to merge with the essence of the previous universe and emerge unharmed in the new one as Galactus. See my point? Says nothing of its power, if anything it suggests that its not the phoenixes role to get involved in threats from within the universes like that, but as shown in the comics tends to the universe itself and ensures that the cycle of creation is forever.

As ive said before its a shame the phoenix has been ignored for so long by non x-related titles but there is tide of change on the horizon with F4 recognising Phoenix as the force responsible for creation and everything within. Just wait and see.

Dizzle
GS, your logic is great. You've proved, and very well at that, that the Phoenix setup parallels the system of the Seraphim. That said, you still have no real good evidence to prove that the mysterious little voice that guides the avatars is in fact TOAA. Phoenix is powerful, yes. Exactly how powerful is impossible to tell.

Many of the points you've made to set up the avatars as Seraphim are based in assumptions, such as the names. The names establish that the system is set up to parallel the Seraphim, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the PF avatars are as POWERFUL as true Seraphim would be. Someone set up a parallel between Warlock and Jesus on a different thread. Doesn't mean Warlock is the son of God.

It's always possible that whoever guides the Phoenix avatars could simply be a powerful entity, with similarities to, but not the power of, religious God. There's simply no way to tell.

On the opposite side, you could be right, the PF could be a section of TOAA, the avatars could be guided by TOAA itself, and Phoenix could have the power to single handedly blink the omniverse from existance.

Oh, the spark which began existance does not have to posess the power to actually create everything. I think it always says that the PF began life, doesn't say that it single handedly willed everything into existance. And Reed Richards is not necessarily a reliable source, neither is the Watcher.

GalacticStorm
"Oh, the spark which began existance does not have to posess the power to actually create everything. I think it always says that the PF began life, doesn't say that it single handedly willed everything into existance."

Well being called the primal force of creation would certainly suggest its the case but if thats not enough for you what about jean refferring to the stars as her 'children', and what about her saying that 'all that is I am' and also that "Nothing that lives is not touched by a part of me" would that not suggest to you that she is responsible for creation.

This along with the countless other times phoenixes is called the 'sum and substance of all that is' and has since its first appearance been accredited as the being responsible for creation makes it enough for me to believe that it certainly is the case.

Dizzle
1. Children can be more powerful than parents. Parents provide the roots for their children, which then develop on their own.

2. Being a part of everything doesn't mean you have control of everything. Read The Amber Spyglass by Phillip Pullman. The ghosts of people who die, upon leaving the world of the dead, dissolve and become one with nature, effectively making them a "part of everything". They still can't do crap to effect any of it though.

Xplosive
I believe Franklin is more powerful than Celestial, his powers seems more impressive than their. Anyway he can't compete with PF, I think Thanos with HOTU would do to PF the same thing he did to LT. Thanos with HOTU, he coudl effect also everything what was outised form time and space, but he is being that could never understand the power he had.

Cosmic Cube
Originally posted by Xplosive
I believe Franklin is more powerful than Celestial, his powers seems more impressive than their. Anyway he can't compete with PF, I think Thanos with HOTU would do to PF the same thing he did to LT. Thanos with HOTU, he coudl effect also everything what was outised form time and space, but he is being that could never understand the power he had.

I agree.

Hulk Power
I think that the Marvel universe would take her down.

GalacticStorm

GalacticStorm
Jean demonstrated her telekinetic godhood when she telekinetically reconfigured the 616 realit and then 'amputated' a part of its timeline

HarmoNiC FLo
if the pheonix force is the force of creation. if that is solid true. then the question arises. does pheonix have the power to destroy all the characters in MU as she has the power to create.

HarmoNiC FLo
galactic storm, don't you think maybe your the one misunderstanding or over-analyzing the concepts into thinking pf is so powerfull?

GalacticStorm
Not really. If you read:

Classic Xmen 8, 42 and 43

Uncanny Xmen 101 - 137

New Xmen

Endsong

(Theyre all easily downloadable) and do some research into the basic principles of kaballah then it all stands out to you as plain as day. Im not really delving far into anything to come up with the argument i have. It really is quite obvious to anyone who has even basic knowledge of the principles.

Swanky-Tuna
All I know is if Phoenix is as powerful as galacticstorm claims, it's only a matter of time before Dr. Strange starts demoralizing it.

Lord S
Personally, I have nothing against the Phoenix entity, but wholly reject Claremont's positioning of her as the highest cosmic entity in the Marvel Universe. Just because it's 'official' now, doesn't mean I have to buy it.

I'll patiently sit back and wait for her to get retconned, then maybe some form of order and sense will be restored to the cosmic hierarchy.

I maintain the position that if she was sooo uberly powerful, where was she in the IG saga? Where was she when LT called for a special session to judge Adam Warlock? Where was she when Thanos took control of the HOTU? Why didn't Warlock seek her out back in the IG affair when he held a meeting of cosmic puppets.

Seems like Claremont is trying to make up for lost time. Too little, too late, Claremont. You can't expect me to just suddenly believe that the Phoenix is everything in the MU, and disregard beings like Eternity and LT. I sense hostile behind the scenes strong-arm tactics by Claremont to once again elevate the status of X-related related characters to ridiculous hights, inflating their importance. It seems pretty obvious that he holds considerable political power over other writers and their characters, and that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

Again, I'll wait for the next retcon.

Cosmic Flame
Originally posted by Lord S
Personally, I have nothing against the Phoenix entity, but wholly reject Claremont's positioning of her as the highest cosmic entity in the Marvel Universe. Just because it's 'official' now, doesn't mean I have to buy it.

I'll patiently sit back and wait for her to get retconned, then maybe some form of order and sense will be restored to the cosmic hierarchy.

I maintain the position that if she was sooo uberly powerful, where was she in the IG saga? Where was she when LT called for a special session to judge Adam Warlock? Where was she when Thanos took control of the HOTU? Why didn't Warlock seek her out back in the IG affair when he held a meeting of cosmic puppets.

Seems like Claremont is trying to make up for lost time. Too little, too late, Claremont. You can't expect me to just suddenly believe that the Phoenix is everything in the MU, and disregard beings like Eternity and LT. I sense hostile behind the scenes strong-arm tactics by Claremont to once again elevate the status of X-related related characters to ridiculous hights, inflating their importance. It seems pretty obvious that he holds considerable political power over other writers and their characters, and that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

Again, I'll wait for the next retcon.

I don't think Claremont is trying to make up for anything: he established Phoenix back in the 70s. And considering that Claremont didn't write X-Men Forever, New X-Men or Endsong, I'm not sure what or how he's trying strong arm anyone. Why don't examine Eternity and the Living Tribunal when they appeared early on:

-Eternity engaged in a battle with Dormammu in Strange Tales. Since when does he do stuff like that? If Eternity is so powerful, why didn't he just hand Dormammu his ass and send him packing?

-LT's also first appeared in Strange Tales. Dr. Strange offered some assistance to him while he was in battle, and LT decided to spare the earth. Where was this "top of the food chain" stuff then? He wouldn't have needed Strange's help.

Note that none of the other abstracts appeared until much later.

People consider these beings to be at the top of the cosmic hierarchy, but they didn't achieve their positions there until much later. It wasn't until almost 20 years later that these beings and their roles began to reflect who they are now.

Why is the same not allowed for Phoenix? When Phoenix first appeared, her power was stated up front to be second to that of the creator. It was also stated that anything that she wished would become reality. She began her existence as a being with limitless power. She died and brought herself back to life. There was no concept of Galen dying in the previous universe and being reborn in this universe as Galactus. This idea wasn't cannon until after Jean Grey had died and be reborn as Phoenix. Yet no one complains about Galactus' origin and his power.

The fact is that characters, their powers and the roles become more defined as time moves on. It's happened with all characters. If people want charactes to be like they originally were, then we'd have a Living Tribunal receiving assistance from earth mages (who incidentally wasn't Sorceror Supreme at the time).

The bottom line is that the character and role of Phoenix has been fleshed out more by the House of Ideas, just like other characters have been. I don't understand why people accept growth with some characters and despise it with others.

Later I'll post more on Phoenix and why there was no appearance in any of the big cosmic sagas.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Lord S
Personally, I have nothing against the Phoenix entity, but wholly reject Claremont's positioning of her as the highest cosmic entity in the Marvel Universe. Just because it's 'official' now, doesn't mean I have to buy it.

I'll patiently sit back and wait for her to get retconned, then maybe some form of order and sense will be restored to the cosmic hierarchy.

I maintain the position that if she was sooo uberly powerful, where was she in the IG saga? Where was she when LT called for a special session to judge Adam Warlock? Where was she when Thanos took control of the HOTU? Why didn't Warlock seek her out back in the IG affair when he held a meeting of cosmic puppets.

Seems like Claremont is trying to make up for lost time. Too little, too late, Claremont. You can't expect me to just suddenly believe that the Phoenix is everything in the MU, and disregard beings like Eternity and LT. I sense hostile behind the scenes strong-arm tactics by Claremont to once again elevate the status of X-related related characters to ridiculous hights, inflating their importance. It seems pretty obvious that he holds considerable political power over other writers and their characters, and that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

Again, I'll wait for the next retcon.

If there is one. But thats current continuity so i guess you just have to deal with it. Im sure you'll come to embrace the concept with open arms in due time.

Beyonder
Originally posted by GalacticStorm

(Theyre all easily downloadable) and do some research into the basic principles of kaballah then it all stands out to you as plain as day. Im not really delving far into anything to come up with the argument i have. It really is quite obvious to anyone who has even basic knowledge of the principles.

This is the Marvel Universe - not the Kaballahverse.

HarmoNiC FLo
Originally posted by Beyonder
This is the Marvel Universe - not the Kaballahverse.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Lord S
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
I don't think Claremont is trying to make up for anything: he established Phoenix back in the 70s. And considering that Claremont didn't write X-Men Forever, New X-Men or Endsong, I'm not sure what or how he's trying strong arm anyone. As one of the head writers, or perhaps the head writer, it is conceivable that he holds considerable creative control and other political power over other writers, and their work, behind the scenes.

This may all be speculation, but I'd be willing to bet that he had a hand in the exclusion of many X-characters and villains (ie. Magneto, Phoenix), in many of the large cosmic crossovers of the early 90s...and in 'The End', where you'd think the mighty Phoenix would show her beak.

IIRC, Dormammu is from another reality...one that Eternity has no power, or control over. Just like he had a difficult time with the Infinites. Nobody is positioning Eternity as the head of the multiverse.

Perhaps LT's role as top dog in the multiverse wasn't quite established then...you're supposed to ignore little inconsistencies like this in the early life of a character. Just like we disregard the Watcher referring to Galactus as the most powerful being in existence all those years ago.

Because the inconsistency factor is so glaring and contrived, that's it's very difficult to swallow. Not to mention that it lays to waste everything that has been established by writers like Starlin, who are much better at cosmic stuff.

Fine, but as long as writers don't step over the work of other writers that some of us actually appreciate, things would be great. Now I'm hearing about the Phoenix being the one to save Galan from dying, and transforming him to Galactus, when it was ALREADY established that Eternity was the one who did it. Why totally disregard what's already been established, just to push your own character? Seriously stupid.

Because unlike the 'growth' of X-characters, the maturation is slow and steady...not Storm SUDDENLY being able to draw energy from a star...or Magneto being able to create black holes. Utterly ridiculous.

It's not too much to ask to keep a character within his/her means...yes, improve them, refine them, upgrade them, but keep them within their means. If the type of growth the X-characters are receiving were equal across the board, you'd see Jarvis the Butler a muscle-bound superhero in no time. Would you look at that with much enthusiasm? Now you know how the rest of us feel about X-characters.

There's a lot more to the Marvel Universe than just X-Men, and just cause they're the top-selling book(s), doesn't mean they have to be the most powerful team. Part of the initial intrigue, (for me at least), was the fact that they weren't the most powerful, but were the persecuted...it made for interesting reading, but now it's just way over-the-top...especially with Wolverine.

I'll definitely wait for it.

GalacticStorm
""""As one of the head writers, or perhaps the head writer, it is conceivable that he holds considerable creative control and other political power over other writers, and their work, behind the scenes.

This may all be speculation, but I'd be willing to bet that he had a hand in the exclusion of many X-characters and villains (ie. Magneto, Phoenix), in many of the large cosmic crossovers of the early 90s...and in 'The End', where you'd think the mighty Phoenix would show her beak.""""


Why oh why have you brought this thread up again?

Right down to business. Whats your point Lord S even if your unfounded speculation is true? Phoenix not being involved in those big cosmic affairs says nothing of its lack of power. You know that is not the case when beings such as eternity are involved, who phoenix is accreditted with creating and they are seen as major obstacles by whatever villain it is seeking to become top of the cosmic hierarchy. Who know sexactly why phoenix isnt present. Maybe because its beyond such things? Who knows. However its power can not be questioned. Its stated as being second only to TOAA. Phoenix is stated to be the ultimate force at last being able to express itself in our plane of existence.



"""Perhaps LT's role as top dog in the multiverse wasn't quite established then...you're supposed to ignore little inconsistencies like this in the early life of a character. Just like we disregard the Watcher referring to Galactus as the most powerful being in existence all those years ago."""""


Chris Claremont also use to write Dr Strange at the time when he created Phoenix, Phoenix was at the same time stated to be a force second only to TOAA. Its initial concept, one that has been made continuity again now is that the ultimate force, the primal force of creation used jeans discorporation during re-entry as a means to funnel down into our plane of existence, therefore creating phoenix. Phoenix is a force of creation it is not a guardian of the multiverse, it is not a being to be defeated to get to the top of the hierarchy. It is beyond that.




"""""Because the inconsistency factor is so glaring and contrived, that's it's very difficult to swallow. Not to mention that it lays to waste everything that has been established by writers like Starlin, who are much better at cosmic stuff.""""""


Phoenix being retconned into a seperate firebird entity made for many inconsistencies also. It doesnt necessarily lay waste to the work of Starlin if you look at my point above. Phoenix is a force that has the job of creating, maintaining before eventually destroying creation. At which point it stats all over again. It is not a physical being to be overtaken. It is a force. It only has a physical body when its phoenix duties are required in order to maintain creation. For example the M'kraan crystal incident. It was stated that Phoenix is the only power capable of containing the multiversal reset switch that is the crystal. (X-Ternals 3) Phoenix only takes corporeal form when its own brand of work is required. It isnt like LT or its creations the abstracts. Therefore LT as top being isnt usurped by the reversion to the original ideas. Phoenix is a force beyond such affairs, beyond our plane of existence.



""""""Fine, but as long as writers don't step over the work of other writers that some of us actually appreciate, things would be great. Now I'm hearing about the Phoenix being the one to save Galan from dying, and transforming him to Galactus, when it was ALREADY established that Eternity was the one who did it. Why totally disregard what's already been established, just to push your own character? Seriously stupid.""""



Well thats exactly what was done to Phoenix with the 86 retcon. Marvel cant please all groups of fans. Phoenix back before the story of galactus' origin was even created was the force accredited with the creation of all that is. Remember Phoenix is one with all that is, that was established before Galactus' origins as well so knowing now that it was actually phoenix responsible for galactus isnt changing it up that much. Eternity is just a part of the greater force that is phoenix.

CorderaMitchell
damn you people,, multiquote!!

Your stuff's great, but hard to read, when its THIS long.

eternitygoddess
Creation vs. abnormally powerful mutant.

Enough said.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by eternitygoddess
Creation vs. abnormally powerful mutant.

Enough said.

Phoenix is creation my dear so who is she fighting against? I think someones phoenix knowledge needs an update.

CorderaMitchell
I think the person was rooting on your side, you meanie.

He or she, just menitoned you in the best debator thead, you should be ashamed.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
I think the person was rooting on your side, you meanie.

He or she, just menitoned you in the best debator thead, you should be ashamed.

I wasnt being horrible intentionally sorry im just in that snappy mindset after a long debate with synchro lol. No offense. But seriously read the new phoenix threads not a lot of people seem clued up on phoenix

eternitygoddess
Let me clarify - since there was an argument over Phoenix and Franklin Richards.

Creation=Phoenix vs. abnormally powerful mutant=Franklin Richards.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by eternitygoddess
Let me clarify - since there was an argument over Phoenix and Franklin Richards.

Creation=Phoenix vs. abnormally powerful mutant=Franklin Richards.


Ohhhhhhhh. My bad. Sorry about that. Are you a girl or a boy? Join the debaters thread

eternitygoddess
Girl. Np about your misunderstanding.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by eternitygoddess
Girl. Np about your misunderstanding.


Cool big grin cool

CorderaMitchell
GS's next question: are you black,lol. stick out tongue

bigbran
laughing this thread is funny, franklin richards being above galactus. pheonix as part of the source and toaa, and higher than everyone else...gs you were funny even back then, whoa you crack me up. laughing pheonix force gets crush on earth, or maybe thats going overboard, earth and the shiar.
galactus and the avengers would destroy her.
or LT would snap her back to the hot room.

Jesse7
The pf two best on panel feats, and not just speculation, is the repairing of the crystal, and the repairing of a wounded universe. Both of which are not multiversal, have any of you read Mr. Master post on why the phoenix force is nothing more then a less then universal power?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=410642&highlight=phoenix+forumid%3A77

Mr Master
The Marvel Hierarchy

In the Marvel Multiverse

1. TOAA
:Obviously:

2. HOTU
:Absorbed LT: nuff said...

3. Living Tribunal
:Because he's above the IG(like I proved in this thread)

4. IG
:Because it controlled the energies of the Ultimate Nullifier:

5. Ultimate Nullifier
:Obliterated and Remade the Multiverse in the blink of an eye.

6. Abraxas(he can only manifest...if one of the Galactus's in Multi-verse die).
:Because only the UN can kill him:

7. Multi-Eternity/Multi-Infinity(embodiments of the Multiverse/Time&Space)
:Because it's their Multiverse, Because they are the Multiverse, because they make up an infinite number of Universes(as you saw in the Cosmic Vortex)without them there's nothing, Because a Single Big Bang takes place in their immensity all the time. An entire Universe is infinitesimal in comparison to them.

8. Phoenix Force/Eternity/Infinity/Entropy/Death

9. Rest of the abstracts and so on.

Phoenix Force Greatest Feats:

1.:REPAIRING the M'Kraan Crystal:

When she did this(ON PANEL)the Crystal was a UNIVERSAL THREAT!...and it hadn't even been released when Phoenix REPAIRED IT......NOT contained it.

This Scan actually puts to rest the whole Mkraan Crystal event issue,
once thought to be the greatest feat for ol' GS in Marvel, LOL...but in fact...it was just a Universe that Phoenix saved. Here's the close up:
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/1361/mkraancrystalevent8lt.th.jpg

The MKraan Crystal As the Nexus of all Realities, the Crystal can allow travel between universes, but opening the Crystal could cause the mass of the neutron galaxy inside to suck in the entire universe and cause a chain-reaction across the multiverse, destroying all universes in existence.

Sounds like Wanda's Chaos Wave.....How anyone came to the conclusion that the Crystal is a Multiversal reset switch or whatever is beyond me.

2.:REPAIRING the Damage to an Orphan Universe:

She did NOT RESTRUCTURE or WARP or REMADE this "Orphan Universe"...she REPAIRED it....yes....the DAMAGE atom by atom.
http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/3498/pffixjq6.th.jpg
Contrary to the ridiculous exaggeration that has been pumped about this feat by you know who....challenge the scan all you want.

3.:Projecting the Excalibur Tower across the multiverse VIA the Interfaces across the Multiverse that were Aligned momentarily.

This is before the Phoenix even came into the picture:
It clearly says 'when a series of interfaces across the Multiverse were aligned, the localized energy fields merged..to Create an Energy Matrix.'
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/2029/tower12vr2dv.th.jpg
The Energy fields merge ON THEIR OWN...and the Interfaces across the Mulitverse align BY THEMSELVES...

AT the MOMENT of ALIGNMENT, THEN Feron called Phoenix to project the Tower", a less than monumental feat...considering it was the Energy Matrix(ON IT"S OWN)that allowes simultaneous existence in the Multiverse when the Interfaces Across are Aligned, Which Also happens ON it's OWN.....
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/1399/tower26ug4lz.th.jpg

While Necrom and Feron had fought, MERLYN had JUMPED INTO the Energy Matrix...
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/2397/matrix4pm.th.jpg

He was swept across the Multiverse and was finally able to control the Energy Matrix and created Otherworld.
At Otherworld Merlyn, along with his daughter Roma, over-looked the Multiverse.
http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/4817/matrix26rc.th.jpg

MERLYN repaired the Energy Matrix which now has a permanent flow.....NOT Phoenix.

bbrem123
that should end this tread

Mr Master
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Apparently, the "Phoenix", or the force of creation, created the multiverse, leon.

hysterical

Dude where did you get that from?

You've been sold too havent you?

Ok wake up time....

This is the actual MULTI-VERSE being created.
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7402/multi13vs.th.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7421/multieternity16do.th.jpg


Please point out for me...where do you see that Phoenix did this?....

Well then show me if Phoenix is EVEN mentioned at all.confused1

Mr Master
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If Thanos destroyed the entire marvel multiverse then surely he would have destroyed Adam Warlock along with it?

Atleza's domain is outside the Multiverse...

Gamora and Warlock were babysitting Atleza in her domain...which is untouched by Space or Time or the Multiverse.

From this domain she anchors our Universe(which is one of many)in place...so that it will not be sucked in by the VOID.

See those little purple balls, thats where atleza is..and every little purple ball is the domain of the anchor...Yes...very much outside the Multiverse...the Multiverse are the Bigger balls obviously...untouched by space or time
http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/8021/unilook17qj.th.jpg
http://img280.imageshack.us/img280/9715/unilook21qc.th.jpg
First Warlock is allowed to enter this place...the Cosmic Vortex.
http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/3198/adamgoesbtwnuniverses15yh.th.jpg
Now observe Warlock navigating this realm in--between Universes.
http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/7376/adamgoesbtwnuniverses26zw.th.jpg

Mr Master
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
These are quotes from phoenix supporting the fact that she is the primal force of creation (as also stated by the watcher) whose essence runs through everything and who created the multiverse.

This is BULLshit

The Multi-verse was NOT created by Phoenix in any way shape or form.
She can't even create a Universe and now you have her creating Multiverses. laughing
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7402/multi13vs.th.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7421/multieternity16do.th.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix of the White CROWN and the fact that Jean calls herself TIPHERETH in the comics provide more evidence supporting my argument about TOAA connection. With both terms being the names of sephiroth (vessels for Gods essence, made to carry out his work in our plane of existence),

"GOD"?.....hysterical

What "GOD".....here are several "GODS"...choose one.

Thanos was "GOD" with a Cosmic Cube
http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/1613/cosmiccubemakesyougod5st.th.jpg
Thanos with IG is "GOD"
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1825/igmakesyougod7zf.th.jpg
Warlock with IG is "GOD"
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1825/igmakesyougod7zf.th.jpg
Magus with an Incomplete IG is "God"
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2647/god1kl9.th.jpg

Mr Master
Could it be this "GOD"?....Yea that's right....the Multi-verse itself and once again Phoenix had nothing to do with this beast.
http://img287.imageshack.us/img287/2743/warlockfindsthemultiverse7ma.th.jpg
Realize how they say that ONE UNIVERSE of THEIRS is basically insignificant to them.
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/1623/multiverse2co.th.jpg
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/5109/multiverse28yb.th.jpg


Perhaps it's this "GOD"...the one that can make you a Universe in an instant.
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7592/ltmakesss13fz.th.jpg
http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/2751/ltmakesss21ek.th.jpg
http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/3725/ltmakesss31te.th.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/3281/ltmakesss43ro.th.jpg
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/3169/ltmakesss53se.th.jpg
Unlike your stupid Mastermind scan...I can actually SEE Silver Surfer physically EXPANDING into a UNIVERSE...
http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/3707/ltmakesss80mn.th.jpg
http://img279.imageshack.us/img279/4882/ltmakesss66ed.th.jpg

Mr Master
Actually let me just throw in the MOST powerful character ever created by Marvel....Classic Beyonder...is this the "GOD" your referring to?

He's Beyond Space and Time
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9851/beyondspaceandtimefk9.th.jpg
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6606/beyondspacetime2pq7.th.jpg
Heroes...Villians and everyone else on earth bowing to the Beyonder, is he "GOD"?
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/7841/beyondercontrolsallheroesvillansca6.th.jpg
Even Bacteria & Viruses...Inanimate objects...Atoms and any substance in existence bows to the Beyonder...is he "GOD"?
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/640/beyondercontrolseverythingct4.th.jpg

Mr Master
Just by Beyonder thinking to much....Suns Implode..Worlds Collide...Parallel Dimensions Collapse
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/8239/beyonderthinkingtf2.th.jpg

Mr Master
The ENTIRE Watcher race agrees to Interfere with the Beyonder...this is UNHEARD OF.
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/7403/watchercouncilti2.th.jpg
Beyonder has the Living Universe begging him to not kill Multi-Death
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/8895/abstractsbegbeyonder2wr7.th.jpg
He does anyway.
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3842/beyonderkillsdeath2kv6.th.jpg
Death is ERASED across The Entire Multiverse
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/6859/beyonderkillsdeath3tq0.th.jpg
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2465/beyondernodeathjo1.th.jpg
Beyonder recreates Death
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/2797/beyonderressurectsdeath2ij8.th.jpg
Just like Phoenix and Death talked so Beyonder talks to Death
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/4171/beyondertalkingtodeathxu1.th.jpg
Death is too AFRAID to even respond to her X-Muderer
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7964/beyondertalkingtodeath2kx4.th.jpg

Mr Master
Beyonder is Reality
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8379/beyonderisrealitydw2.th.jpg
Beyonder can do anything
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/3159/beyondercandoanythingml3.th.jpg
Beyonder is the Living Embodiment of Supreme Power
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/9875/beyonderisthelivingsupreme4cq.th.jpg
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/8738/beyonderisthelivingsupreme24gz.th.jpg
Beyonder is Millions of Times More Powerful than ALL the Rest of the Multiverse Combined.
http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/7524/beyondermillionsofxmorepowerfu.th.jpg

Mr Master
Now was Beyonder alone in this?...no....many thought Beyonder was the Ultimate Being.
Sunspot on the Beyonder
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7492/sunspotonbeyonderwp8.th.jpg
Darkchild on the Beyonder
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/8571/darkchildonbeyonderot5.th.jpg
Hercules on the Beyonder
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/58/herculesonthebeyonderbc8.th.jpg
Magneto on the Beyonder
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/2077/magnetoonbeyonderfx0.th.jpg
Dr Doom on the Beyonder
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/94/doctordoomonthebeyondersf2.th.jpg
Xavier on the Beyonder
http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/479/xavieronthebeyonderhj6.th.jpg
Dr Strange on the Beyonder
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2518/dstrangeonbeyonderqu5.th.jpg
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2931/dstrangeonbeyonder2pu4.th.jpg

Mr Master
Finally...

The whole thing about being the "END ALL...BE ALL"...

Seems like it's commom when you have the Infinity Gauntlet

and once again he's called "GOD"!

The Infinity Well speaks about Warlock.
http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/2055/awendallbeallvn5.th.jpg

Warlock was the "END ALL and BE ALL of the Universe with the IG....so what role does Phoenix play here?......
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/7799/awendallbeall1dn2.th.jpg

Even the Infinity Well calls Warlock "GOD"...with the IG.
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/1788/awendallbeall2sm9.th.jpg

Mr Master
Originally posted by Mr Master


Scuse the error on this post yall....The Warlock scan was missing.


"GOD"?....

What "GOD".....here are several "GODS"...choose one.

Thanos was "GOD" with a Cosmic Cube
http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/1613/cosmiccubemakesyougod5st.th.jpg
Thanos with IG is "GOD"
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1825/igmakesyougod7zf.th.jpg
Warlock with IG is "GOD"
http://img287.imageshack.us/img287/4705/igmakesyougod23un.th.jpg

sexyking
Mr master as i have said time and time again you do an amazing job when posting and i love your scans, dam i have forgoten how cool the beyonder was.Is there a beyonder respect thread if not there needs to be one made right now.

Mr Master
Originally posted by sexyking
Mr master as i have said time and time again you do an amazing job when posting and i love your scans, dam i have forgoten how cool the beyonder was.Is there a beyonder respect thread if not there needs to be one made right now.

thanx...

I'm going to make a Beyonder respect thread...I have the ample issues to display madness.

Mr Master
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The fact remains that he saw becoming Eternity as his ultimate goal despite having the IG. Dont dismiss Eternity my friend please remember that it was only an MBody that Thanos defeated,

More Gibberish and lies

Thanos became Eternity to lose his Power to the Infinity Gauntlet....he knew he was a JOKE as Eternity against the IG.........your Words vs the On Panel Proof.
http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/3682/wlttalk1lb6.th.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/3474/wlttalk2ro3.th.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont dismiss Eternity my friend please remember that it was only an MBody that Thanos defeated

Dude I think...no ...I know I rather be this:
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1825/igmakesyougod7zf.th.jpg
Realize how it's not Thanos boasting...it's the Writer that's saying this...or should we only except what Grant Morrison wrtieslaughing

On this scan it's the Infinity Well that's speaking...it supposedly knows ALL......once again, nobody's boasting on their OWN behalf...OTHERS are doing it for them, including WRITERS...CALLING them GOD...Not God-like or A God....but GOD as in GOD.
http://img287.imageshack.us/img287/4705/igmakesyougod23un.th.jpg
Even your boy Eternity said the THOU was the Supreme Power
http://img287.imageshack.us/img287/6374/eternityaspectcallsthousupreme.th.jpg

Mr Master
Than this:
"Powerful Eternity Catatonic"
"Artificially Induced by an OUTSIDE FORCE"...these are direct quotes.
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/3672/1magusknocksouteternityef4.th.jpg
Magus's work with 5 Cosmic Containment Units from a separate Universe.
"He's Catatonic....It appears to be Induced by OUTSIDE FORCES"....
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/4830/3quasarrealityhopping2ej7.th.jpg

What did this to Mighty Eternity?...................................Magus.
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/2140/4magusknocksouteternityoo8.th.jpg

And 30 Cosmic Containment Units are STILL Beneath the Infinity Gauntlet.
Here the Goddess merges 30 Cosmic Containment Units...which equal to even greater power as a sum than individually(as when Magus used his 5)
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/1842/cosmicegg30ccgi2.th.jpg

Here Silver Surfer and the Goddess acknowledge that the Infinity Gauntlet is a "Far More Potent Force" than even 30 Cosmic Containment Units(un-evolved Cosmic Cubes)and remember it only took 5 to create an exact duplicate of the 616 Universe...from scratch.
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2227/igmorethan30ccmb2.th.jpg


Finally:
This about sums it up....Infinity Gauntlet is ABOVE Eternity.
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6199/eternityaspectisallreality32ro.th.jpg
http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/1880/eternityaspectisallreality41tl.th.jpg

rotiart
Originally posted by Mr Master
The Marvel Hierarchy

In the Marvel Multiverse

1. TOAA
:Obviously:

2. HOTU
:Absorbed LT: nuff said...

3. Living Tribunal
:Because he's above the IG(like I proved in this thread)

4. IG
:Because it controlled the energies of the Ultimate Nullifier:

5. Ultimate Nullifier
:Obliterated and Remade the Multiverse in the blink of an eye.

6. Abraxas(he can only manifest...if one of the Galactus's in Multi-verse die).
:Because only the UN can kill him:

7. Multi-Eternity/Multi-Infinity(embodiments of the Multiverse/Time&Space)
:Because it's their Multiverse, Because they are the Multiverse, because they make up an infinite number of Universes(as you saw in the Cosmic Vortex)without them there's nothing, Because a Single Big Bang takes place in their immensity all the time. An entire Universe is infinitesimal in comparison to them.

8. Phoenix Force/Eternity/Infinity/Entropy/Death

9. Rest of the abstracts and so on.

Phoenix Force Greatest Feats:


From my perspective, it feels wierd that you would put the IG and UN above Multi Eternity. In my case I'd put them all on the same level. And then below then I'd put the Infinites, for the way they manhandled Eternity. And I'd put Abraxas on the Level of the Infinites, being that while only 1 abraxas exists in the multiverse, Abraxas is unwilling to kill the multiverse for what it would do to him. Therefore Abraxas is < Multieternity. He is their prisoner. 8 and 9 I generally agree with.

So my new perspective.
1. TOAA (Lord of the Omniverse)
2. MultiEternity/Multi-Infinity (Embodiments of the Multiverse)
2. HOTU/HOTI (Turned you into the equivalent of MultiEternity, even surpassing LT in power.
3. Living Tribunal (Judge of the Multiverse, only one exists ever, if you see him, you are dealing with the only one in the Multiverse)
3. The Infinites (Manhandled Eternity, but LT did not do anything to them, probably cause they were just doing their job to arrange the multiverses energies as they saw fit. Notice though that there were 3 beings. LT has always been shown to have 3 faces. I've always wondered if they could not in fact be the same person)
4. Abraxas (Only one exists within all of MultiEternity, but is still less than them, since their death means Abraxas cannot exist, however Abraxas killed virtually all reed richards in all multiverses, and killed several Galactuses.)
5. PF (For repairing the M Crystal, and an orphan Universe)
5. Single Eternity/Infinity
5. Death
5. Galactus for giving Moondragon the ability to heal Eternity

I am not saying your way may not be right, I'm just saying this is my point of view. Btw great arguments againts GS.

Btw. Phoenix healed an orphan universe.
Moondragon (with Galactus's help) healed 616 Eternity

Moondragon therefore must be equal therefore to Phoenix

If GS can use ABC logic, so can I.

laughing bwhahahhahahahah cool

Mr Master
Originally posted by rotiart


So my new perspective.
1. TOAA (Lord of the Omniverse)
2. MultiEternity/Multi-Infinity (Embodiments of the Multiverse)
2. HOTU/HOTI (Turned you into the equivalent of MultiEternity, even surpassing LT in power.
3. Living Tribunal (Judge of the Multiverse, only one exists ever, if you see him, you are dealing with the only one in the Multiverse)
3. The Infinites (Manhandled Eternity, but LT did not do anything to them, probably cause they were just doing their job to arrange the multiverses energies as they saw fit. Notice though that there were 3 beings. LT has always been shown to have 3 faces. I've always wondered if they could not in fact be the same person)
4. Abraxas (Only one exists within all of MultiEternity, but is still less than them, since their death means Abraxas cannot exist, however Abraxas killed virtually all reed richards in all multiverses, and killed several Galactuses.)
5. PF (For repairing the M Crystal, and an orphan Universe)
5. Single Eternity/Infinity
5. Death
5. Galactus for giving Moondragon the ability to heal Eternity

But you didn't include the IG nor the UN...in this case the hierarchy would be(imho)

1.GOD(Jack Kirby)
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7789/godmx8.th.jpg

1.TOAA(Stan Lee)
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3029/toaabr9.th.jpg
God/Jack calls him his "Collaborator".....

It makes sense....

TOAA/Stan lays down the Story/Laws of Marvel.

GOD/Jack turns those Stories/Laws into reality.


2. HOTU(power of the Supreme being(God&TOAA)

3. Living Tribunal

4. Abraxas was causing the destruction of the Multiverse just by existing.
He's not even trying...his presence equals the Collapse of the Multiverse.
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6307/unabraxasmayhem2lk9.th.jpg

5. Multi-Eternity

6. Infinites

7. Phoenix Force/Eternity/Infinity/Entropy/Death/Cosmic Containment Units(potentially)

8. rest of Abstracts

9. Cosmic Cubes


Originally posted by rotiart
Btw. Phoenix healed an orphan universe.
Moondragon (with Galactus's help) healed 616 Eternity

Moondragon therefore must be equal therefore to Phoenix

laughing

JohnnyDo3
1 against thousands? hell u know d answer

rotiart
I would put IG on the LT level

bigbran
Wolverine stops her. shifty

juggernaut66666
or a Shiar laser gun laughing laughing

leonidas
doh

bigbran
I can't believe people thought that she was an abstract of TOAA back then?

I remember reading these kind of threads, before I joined. And, I'm like, she never really came across as that powerful to me.

I guess I was right.
(this was also back in the days when I thought Galactus was the most powerful in comics though, so ya...)

OMG, the Fanboy of all Fanboys actually made a thread saying it would beat the Marvel U?? BB this is why I use the term.

bigbran
Originally posted by [email protected]
OMG, the Fanboy of all Fanboys actually made a thread saying it would beat the Marvel U?? BB this is why I use the term. I know this.

The reason I'm arguing is not for GS, but for the others that aren't like that, and all they say is that Phoenix would beat SS.

Yes and I stated why I think he can. But it amazes me the Fanboys have gone to this extent.

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