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Well, recently I have seen a lot of posts from intellighent, well-informed people saying there is no Hell and it was an idea created by the church, etc. So Im wondering- If there is no Hell, where do you go after death if you dont make it into heaven?

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
, where do you go after death if you dont make it into heaven?

There's only one place to go, back from whence you came...Heaven or whatever you want to call it.

The spirit returns to God who gave it..

Hell was originally created for the devil and his angels not for human souls. it was created after Satan was jealous of god and wanted to take the throne so god threw him and the third of the angels that rebelled to the earth setting the fall of Adam and eve shortly after. Satan is not bound in hell. he roams on earth searching for a souls to steal and has done a very good job of it. he has deceive millions and millions of people into his lies and they follow his footsteps into hell. the old testament doesn't mention hell but they do call it a different name and David calls it Sheol, the place of the dead. actually Satan is a very beautiful angel because he is from heaven and heaven is very beautiful beyond our wildest dreams. Satan use to have the highest ranking of all the angels and I think it was either cherubim or seraphim's this is mentioned in Ezekiel and Isaiah and also revelations. if you read these, the angels or also called living beings seem weird but they are very beautiful. in Ezekiel it talks of Satan's prideful ways and how he will overthrow god. Hell is reserved for Satan, the fallen angels, the watchers of genesis and the nonbelievers in revelations. everyone says Satan rules hell but he doesn't, once Armageddon ends only a single angel can tie him up and throw him in hell for 1,000 years until the kingdom is over and he will be let out to deceive the nations for one more battle to overthrow Christ's kingdom but he will fail with the billions of people on his side and he will be forever be in hell and he won't be let out any more. all of this is in revelations. Hell is not a made up place created by any church, it is as real as it can be and Jesus has mentioned hell in all of the gospels, the most famous one is the Lazarus and the rich man mentioned also in the gospels.

You really have this down pat don't you...

yes

From what I could read--my poor eyes can only take so much--he DOES have it down pat. Good for you, cking...I wouldn't have had the patience to write all that up.

thanks

some people say even other Christians think this is a lie about hell. Hell doesn't have to called hell but other names. One of them said that soul just stays with the body or go to heaven, may they are the ones who are deceived, the person will either go to heaven or hell, the soul will not stay in the ground. I have evidence in revelations because hades will give up the dead for the great white throne judgement, the fallen angels will be judged also as of the watchers of genesis. some books were not in the bible for some reason and the book of Enoch talks about how the watchers of heaven lusted over the women of the earth, which are called sons of god in genesis and how they are suffering in the place of the dead. Enoch never died and he ascended into heaven. some people say the bible is wrong with hell fire but the bible is perfect because god knows what he is doing and saying. the fire may not be physical but it could be spiritual fire. All I know it is a place of suffering not a place of par-tining

I don' t believe in an afterlife as such that after death, people get reward or punishment based on their deeds or faith. I' d rather join in the speculation that any and all consciousness ceases to exist at death and that death itself is ultimately the exact same experience as prior to conception.

Originally posted by cking
some people say even other Christians think this is a lie about hell. Hell doesn't have to called hell but other names. One of them said that soul just stays with the body or go to heaven, may they are the ones who are deceived, the person will either go to heaven or hell, the soul will not stay in the ground. I have evidence in revelations because hades will give up the dead for the great white throne judgement, the fallen angels will be judged also as of the watchers of genesis. some books were not in the bible for some reason and the book of Enoch talks about how the watchers of heaven lusted over the women of the earth, which are called sons of god in genesis and how they are suffering in the place of the dead. Enoch never died and he ascended into heaven. some people say the bible is wrong with hell fire but the bible is perfect because god knows what he is doing and saying. the fire may not be physical but it could be spiritual fire. All I know it is a place of suffering not a place of par-tining


You do know the Christian concepts of Hell where heavly borrowed from Plato I hope.

i dont believe in hell...if god loved each 1 of us why would he put people through hell ..no matter what they had done?

Originally posted by joeykangaroo
i dont believe in hell...if god loved each 1 of us why would he put people through hell ..no matter what they had done?


Yup, I have to agree with you there. God is not a monster.

I actually read some stuff about death on another website and I have to say I have found some things that are different than what we are talking about.I'm going to say this one verse from the book of Daniel and I want to see what you think about it. "as for you, Daniel, go your way till the end. you will get your rest when you die. and at the end you will rise from the dead to get your reward." what the angel was saying is that daniel can go in peace and do what is right until he dies. He will be buried and rise again on resurrection day. The angel didn't say he would go to heaven or the place of the dead after he dies, he would simply would cease to know anything. it is like when you die you lost everything and you don't know anything. but daniel was promised full redemption on resurrection day. grace and salvation is only half of it but full redemption is when the believers will be resurrected in the same way Christ did. the nonbelievers will be resurrected after the tribulation. the bible says that bless and holy are the ones who take part in the first resurrection for the second death does not hurt them. the book of daniel also says, "some will resurrect to eternal life while some will resurrect to eternal shame." When a Christian and a nonbeliever dies they don't go anywhere and they stay in the ground for look what genesis says,"Later you will return to the ground because you were taken from it. you are dust. and when you die, you will return to the dust." if you read both revelations and daniel they are almost the same except daniel has visions of what will happen over a few hundred years, while revelations can reveal thousands of years. If you read the gospels Jesus didn't promise a believer that they will go to heaven when they die, the same way with Paul.

I think I know what denomination you are....

How then would you explain all the near-death experiences???They all seem to be going someplace.

God is a God of justice and he will not let a single sin go punished. for what Paul says, "the wages of sin is death." When Jesus was on the cross he yelled out," my god my god why have you forsaken me." Jesus was sinless his whole life until he became the most sinful person mankind has ever seen when he took the guilt of the world. So he must have felt the presence of god leaving him on the cross. for Jesus said earlier in the gospel, "me and the father are one." God is with Jesus in everything he did because he is god's chosen servant. The cross symbolized both judgement and forgiveness. For the first time in his life he didn't feel god was with him and that he why he said those words.

Some things we will never understand, that would be like Daniel trying to understand some things in the future, but the angel said don't worry about what will happen your reward will come soon enough. people try to explain the unexplainable. When Jesus died the gospel didn't say he went to heaven but was dead until god called his name and he rose and that will be the same with us. one of the apostles said to Jesus that can we come where you are going? Jesus said not right now but later on. Jesus was saying you will go to heaven but not right now. Jesus was only dead for a short period of time. Jesus died from sins that wasn't his but ours and when we die it will be ours and so will be in the grave lot longer because we didn't live a sinless life life Jesus did and we didn't receive other peoples sin. Jesus didn't come to protect people from physical death but spiritual death. I'm sorry their is nothing we can do about the physical death but spiritual is always avoidable.

No ones spirit has been killed...It can't be killed. It's part of God already. And it returns to God who gave it...That's why Near Deathers go back to God...There's no other place to go.

this is what I have read just recently. we shouldn't worry about anything as long as we did what Jesus said we will do we will go to heaven even if we have to wait a thousand years in the grave or one day, our promises will still come true.

Originally posted by cking
this is what I have read just recently. we shouldn't worry about anything as long as we did what Jesus said we will do we will go to heaven even if we have to wait a thousand years in the grave or one day, our promises will still come true.


Near deathers are all from different denominations and beliefs, some that don't believe in Jesus and they still saw heaven or what ever you want to call it. Can you explain that?

we are different from god in every way. God says in the old testament that he doesn't think like us act or do the evil things we do. we aren't part of god's body part or anything like that. God and the creation are totally different even the bible says so about this. God created man in his image in but not in a way man is totally all knowing. Adam and eve were perfect but they didn't know everything because god is still their teacher. a spirit can be killed, look what happened to Satan he is a spirit and he is dead. God is a god of living not of the dead and if a person is separated from god they are spiritual dead. You try to explain things that no man can explain and I can explain these things but only god can explain these. We shouldn't worry about this because this is out of our league.

you are again trying to explain things are unexplainable. I can't explain this and neither can you, we don't have the right to.

i would like to get more info on this and I will ask on of my youth pastors at church to see if this is true or not or maybe explain some scriptures that would make it to the point. When I read this stuff the person was a Christian and he used powerful scriptural words that are hard to contradict. I just need more background and more opinions on this subject.

we shouldn't worry as long as we do what is right and god will take care of everything else. I'm sorry I have to go to work at walmart. It is nice talking to you about this subject and hopefully I will get off work and get back on here.

Originally posted by cking
you are again trying to explain things are unexplainable. I can't explain this and neither can you, we don't have the right to.

Yes we have the right to...

I beieve there is no hell otherwise god would also be there as it says in Psalms somewhere when David said there is no place where god is not.

There is also a scripture that says in the NT that the spirit goes back to god from where it came..Sorry don't have a concordence right now.

We are made in the image of god, that does not mean physically like a body. God does not have a body. We are created like god in spirit form..We are apart of who He/It is.

Originally posted by cking
we are different from god in every way. God says in the old testament that he doesn't think like us act or do the evil things we do. we aren't part of god's body part or anything like that. God and the creation are totally different even the bible says so about this. God created man in his image in but not in a way man is totally all knowing. Adam and eve were perfect but they didn't know everything because god is still their teacher. a spirit can be killed, look what happened to Satan he is a spirit and he is dead. God is a god of living not of the dead and if a person is separated from god they are spiritual dead. You try to explain things that no man can explain and I can explain these things but only god can explain these. We shouldn't worry about this because this is out of our league.


This is typical.If a non-Christian brings up something in the Old Testiment,Christians say it's the Old Testiment and don't except it as cannon.However,Christians will use the Old Testiment to their liking and see nothing wrong with it.

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Well, recently I have seen a lot of posts from intellighent, well-informed people saying there is no Hell and it was an idea created by the church, etc. So Im wondering- If there is no Hell, where do you go after death if you dont make it into heaven?

If you have a fear of passing on, do not realise you're dead, or feel guilty about your death, or have unfinished buissness then you come back as a ghost.

Then it's reincarnation when you fully pass on.

Originally posted by mr.smiley
This is typical.If a non-Christian brings up something in the Old Testiment,Christians say it's the Old Testiment and don't except it as cannon.However,Christians will use the Old Testiment to their liking and see nothing wrong with it.
this is the exact reason why i dont take the bible literally.

JIA, i am totally with you on this, but, by quoting scripture over and over again, you are just pissing everyone off.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Hell is the destination of those who do not go to Heaven.
Quoting scripture will not prove it, and anyone can see that if you look at the origin of the words and what was meant by them...It is NOT eternal, but a state of living now.

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Well, recently I have seen a lot of posts from intellighent, well-informed people saying there is no Hell and it was an idea created by the church, etc. So Im wondering- If there is no Hell, where do you go after death if you dont make it into heaven?

There is no heaven outside of this life.

When you die, you return to where you came from before your were born.

The Jews of biblical times did not have a concept of heaven, hell, and afterlife as we do nowadays, which is why it is not spoken of in the Old Testament. They believed that if they were bad, God would punish their children. their children's children, and the entire Jewish nation if necessary.

Originally posted by joeykangaroo
i dont believe in hell...if god loved each 1 of us why would he put people through hell ..no matter what they had done?



God does love everyone (every race, ethnic group, tribe, people, and nationality) that is why He sent His only, begotten Son Jesus Christ to die for the sins of the world on the cross so that we could be saved from our sins. The wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. Now, no one has to go to Hell when they die (if they do not want to), but the way out as it were is only through Jesus Christ. If you want to go to Heaven when you die simply confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead and you will be saved. Turn away from your sins (or repent from them) and follow Christ Jesus with all of your heart. Rejoice, for if you have done these things with all of your heart you are Heaven-bound!

Happy Holidays,
JesusIsAlive

ooooo the old record player is back

What is this "afterlife" you guys are talking about?

first ... I want to say welcome to you ...

and then i want to answer ... just as we know that when somebody write about anything .. His or her beliefs and principles, and religion talk about his / her viewpoint . and we need to deal with it by recpect . we are friends .

....................................................
as return to my tenet as Muslim inevitably there is HELL and also paradise .. We strongly believe that God promised us to give us paradise if we did the good deeds in this life such as , ( the five prayers , Fasting ,alzkah , hajj and also many good things with good ethics ) ..

and The Paradise is a large reward from God for those who believe in it only. But even if they do not believe in the one God .God also created fire for those who do not believe in it . and The agony of fire is very large and very dangerous . Only imagine that if you Can bear the fire now .. of course you will say i cant bear that, so how you can bear the most strong fire in the Doomsday.. i mean After you die there agony called the agony of grave . and this a gony for muslims and non muslims too .. but the diffreant that when the muslims see this a gony and feel in it .. god make that good for them ..i mean that increase our deeds and also that help us to enter to paradise . but for non belivers.. they just Suffer in the grave, and followed suffer by the fire . and this is the end .. for who believe in one god he will if god want that entar to paradise and the paradise is very very beautiful you can not imagine paradise never . Because it is a big surprise from God for Muslims . Nevertheless, God have infinite mercy for everybody.. he know exactly that the human is very weak and he follows what he loves.

all that from what i believe in .. and i wont to make you Afraid .. but I swear that this is the right .


note

afterlife mean >> Is life after the die and go to the grave .. From here you begin another life again.. human passes through it to many various stages .. first stage is the agony of grave.. first stage is the agony of grave..Which depend on your work -deeds- in this world .. After ending stage of grave .. God sends all the people from e graves again . to judged about their deeds in this life . Then either to hell or heaven. that is all . i hope all we go to paradise .


best ...

silver heart

Nowhere!

You're dead, gone, shows over!

How do you know?

as god is all forgiving you can only be sent to hell for rejecting him which isn't gods fault its your free will

Originally posted by quickshot
as god is all forgiving you can only be sent to hell for rejecting him which isn't gods fault its your free will Who made free will?

Originally posted by silver heart
first ... I want to say welcome to you ...

and then i want to answer ... just as we know that when somebody write about anything .. His or her beliefs and principles, and religion talk about his / her viewpoint . and we need to deal with it by recpect . we are friends .

*snip*



Awww . . . . thanks for the welcome .

But as an atheist, i need something more substantial than religious dogma.

Originally posted by Templares
Awww . . . . thanks for the welcome .

But as an atheist, i need something more substantial than religious dogma.

seriously shut up

I'd rather not have stupid athiests posting against intelligent theists

But as an atheist, i need something more substantial than religious dogma.



Welcome back .. again ..
First of all .. because aim Muslim that make me sure about hell and paradise .. And religion is something that takes more than any thing . yes, may be, It is easy to deal with the Jews and Christians because they believe something like Muslims. But in someway it is difficult to deal with atheist . But no problem... I will try with you, and I hope that others will benefit from the dialogue.. I do not want you (Templares) to believe in what i will say now.. but just please read, and think in true way . Why God created mind and heart for us ? . Certainly to think and think and for ask ..until you find the truth..
The truth that you want to know .is God exists .. and if he exists .. where is he and why i can not see him ? and many questions . But once again I want to remind my good friends all in this Forum Whether theyare Muslims, Christians or Jews.. we should deal with other by respect Especially in things related to religion.
Each and every one is talking about religion and morality. just i want from all read and think and respect .
Templares You are atheist so I will try with you. to tell you many things clearly. But please we wOnt war in this good forum just Each one expresses them standpoint And I will came again to writer about that but now I am very busy .. i have final exams . wish me luck ..

Thank you for all and I wish good day for all

BEST
SILVER HEART

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
seriously shut up

I'd rather not have stupid athiests posting against intelligent theists

RIIIGGHT.



OOoohkay (Good luck to your exams ).

So is there anybody else who could enlighten yours truly as to what is is this "afterlife " is all about . . . . without resorting to (faith-dependent) religious dogma?

No one knows what the after life is.......Oohh and if one tries to imagine it according to lets say the bible, it says that it is impossible to do so, "No man has imagined or have in their heart what might be instore for them.".....Soooo what ever one might imagine........IT'S WRONG ANYWAY.......

Originally posted by Templares
RIIIGGHT.


your post was completely irrelivent to the conversation and you were unnessesarily rude to a person trying to be polite

as for afterlife w/o "faith dependent religious dogma" well the name kind of sums it up it what happens to you AFTER your LIFE ends

in a more realistic sense w/o religion there is no afterlife to discuss

"Afterlife" - state of life after your wife and her divorce lawyer is through with you.

I was rude after i said "Thanks for the Welcome" !?!?!

you seemed somehow sarcastic with the Aww. . . . and the dancing banana.

I do like your definition of afterlife

Originally posted by Templares
"Afterlife" - state of life after your wife and her divorce lawyer is through with you. Life after your ex man has tried and not seceeded with putting you through hell...The imaginary place.

dear debbiejo, the paradise and hell are an inevitable fact for all people .. and not as the Venue fictitious as what you said before ..and i will teel you why .. but not now



just give me time until I finish the final exams ..


good luck

Originally posted by silver heart
dear debbiejo, the paradise and hell are an inevitable fact for all people .. and not as the Venue fictitious as what you said before ..and i will teel you why .. but not now



just give me time until I finish the final exams ..


good luck

You know that's not true, no one can tell us that factually. But I am happy that you believe that they are. Well, at least happy about 50%. The hell business is a bunch of bullshit even if it exists.

Originally posted by silver heart
dear debbiejo, the paradise and hell are an inevitable fact for all people .. and not as the Venue fictitious as what you said before ..and i will teel you why .. but not now



just give me time until I finish the final exams ..


good luck




The concepts of Heaven and Hell are fiction...they have existed long before the religions of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. They have existed in ancient religions such as Greek Mythology and Egpytian mythology as well.

Therefore, Heaven and Hell are PAGAN in nature, and therefore you beleive in a PAGAN concept, like much of your religion consists of.



If you look into REALITY, at least look at nature and human society, morality is a SPECTRUM and so is this life.


Good and Evil are NOT absolutes, morality and life does not exist in absolutes, but Heaven and Hell are concepts of absolutivity. There is a spectrum of events, favorable and unfavorable. In nature, good and evil do not EXIST....they are what WE as human beings project onto our world.

Judgement is ALSO simply a human construct, as is justice. Justice does NOT exist in the realm of animals, or in nature, things HAPPEN and we move on.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

Good and Evil are NOT absolutes, morality and life does not exist in absolutes, but Heaven and Hell are concepts of absolutivity. There is a spectrum of events, favorable and unfavorable. In nature, good and evil do not EXIST....they are what WE as human beings project onto our world.


you're not really Urizen are you?

I was wondering where that --> droolio was too.

Wheres Urizen, where is his body...

It seems that he changed. Slightly. To me. At least.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The concepts of Heaven and Hell are fiction...they have existed long before the religions of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. They have existed in ancient religions such as Greek Mythology and Egpytian mythology as well.

Therefore, Heaven and Hell are PAGAN in nature, and therefore you beleive in a PAGAN concept, like much of your religion
Yes, they exist in other mythologies, but if you consider that they all might have descended from the same religion it might become clear that perhaps they are all showing a piece of the truth. That's just a thought a think you should consider before saying things are borrowed when there is a high probability that the belief simply comes from the same place.

*picks up history books* Yep, based on Dante's infernal and paganism..




WOW, I have a reading club like Oprah.

Dante's inferno? Not really, very few people actually believe what it says. On paganism read my above post. Sorry, but your repitive ranting doesn't give conclusive evidence on anything. The evidence will always be inconclusive. You have made your point many times before, but your repitiveness does not add to discussion.

Nor does yours........You're a fundamentalist too?

I could give you links and studies and book titles but yet I doubt you'd venture to look, because to do so would destroy your little bubble. You like that little bubble of other people telling you how to think don't you...It makes you feel involved and secure doesn't it.

People telling me how to think? If only you understood my faith and how I came to it. If only you knew that I only started going to church two months ago and that it hasn't changed a single belief on mine. I would also venture that you are not as well educated on these subjects as you claim and that your 'study' involves unaccredited websites and books written by non-scholars who make false conclusions from the work of real scholars.

Ohh...Stanford University sites and books, Other historical literature, Josephus and his works on the Jewish wars, The early church writings of the fathers by Stanford again. The Writing of the Catholic Church, As compiled by that church, the biographies of many protestant church founders, How the denominations were formed and what influenced it and how they branched into other trees, the study following the different faiths back to their roots?. ...etc.

So you believe that I am influenced by the pagan influenced Catholic Church? No.
Protestant church founders? Like Zwingli, Kalvin, and Luther? So you know that they merely began the return to following the scriptures.

Originally posted by Nellinator
So you believe that I am influenced by the pagan influenced Catholic Church? No.
Protestant church founders? Like Zwingli, Kalvin, and Luther? So you know that they merely began the return to following the scriptures. They were too late. It was already influenced. Yet they added to what you may call the so called truth by growing some denominations that also split, and split again and so on.....

They felt that they were really in the right btw, And I believe them, but they were too late. The falsities were done centuries before.

I agree with you somewhat. But, progress is stilling being made and many Christians are returning to the roots of their faith.

but when you trace them back, you'll come to where............I am.

If you love your faith so much, better to not trace it.

I think I may have traced it in more detail than you have, but that's pure speculation. Many people smarter than either you or I have gone deeper than you or I and held their faith.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I think I may have traced it in more detail than you have, but that's pure speculation. Many people smarter than either you or I have gone deeper than you or I and held their faith.

Many lost it though. Just saying.

Originally posted by debbiejo

If you love your faith so much, better to not trace it.

I was warned also............but me.........................lol