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Okay, guys. I watched ROTS for the third time last night and noticed a couple of things that I'd like to point out, so let's just jump right in:

1) I agree with everyone's opinion that Anakin's fall to the Darkside seemed rushed or not 100% believable. No matter what you say, you can't make me feel it. I believed it, but I felt like, "that was quick", when I saw it. So here's how you could make it PERFECT.

Anakin in the Jedi Temple contemplating things and being tormented with the possible reality of Padme's death was enough. There was more shown there with no dialogue than most of the movie. That was brilliantly done. All Lucas had to do was have Anakin chop off Mace's hand and cut the scene where Anakin screams, "what have i done!". It would have been a SEAMLESS TRANSITION. I bought the fall in the temple, not the fall after the what have i done.

Also, did anyone else notice the implied "REDEMPTION" scene after Anakin kills the Viceroy?? There's a scene of Anakin staring into the sky with these beautiful clouds and sun; it almost looks like a scene out of the Ten Commandments. THen he looks down at the lave, which is like Hell. Right then, he realized his fate. I think that's why he had the tears. Also, notice that same aforementioned cloud was behind Obi-Wan as well, as if Obi-Wan was also his final chance at redemption.

Drop a line and tell me what you guys think! Later!

I totally agree with you, that line was kinda strange, i mean one minute he is like: What have i done?!, and then few moments later he bows to Palpatine and says he'll do anything he wants. Talking about his transformation its obvious it was too fast, regarding Padme's love or not. What seemed strange to me was that how he is lying to himself that jedis wanted to take control over the senate, and he tells that to Padme too, and talking about his empire to her. I always thought that he will turn to the darkside after Padme's death.

I agree. It felt rushed. but i like the idea of anakin hurting padme because he turned to the darkside, and the reason he did was to protect her. i love the vicious circle it creates.

but i think it would have been good to have that scene where anakin is "thinking" in the council chambers AFTER he helps kill windu, not before. then once he realises he has no choice he goes back to palps and pledges himself to the darkside.

THE THING THAT EVERYONE IS FORGETTING IS THE DARK SIDE ADDICTION!!!

In episode 6 and 5 they talk SOOO MUCH aobut how the DarkSide is just plain addicting and controlling...

when anakin pledges alligiance to Palps he looks all drugged up like if something is controlling him. THis is the DARKSIDE!! AND He let it consume him like letting a drug consume you!
ALL THE OTHER THINGS LED TO HIM TAKING THE DRUG (if you will) and once you start down the darkside, "FOREVER will it dominate your destiny"
"You don know the power of the darkside"

the Darkside is a DRUG PEOPLE!!!!!!! A REALLY GOOD DRUGG!! makes u stupid too

I agree .. and also think of it this way.. how the hell would he explain windu's death to the council?....he had already startd taking the plundge..then that happened .. what was the point in turning back now?...plus he went there with the intent to "help" palpatine so he could save padme..

Originally posted by p. skywalker
plus he went there with the intent to "help" palpatine so he could save padme..

i don't buy that. Like someone said very well earlier that the darkside is like a drug, so it is. If you're a smoker (an avid one like myself), you'll think of times when you wanted to quit but thought to yourself "Awww. but i have this headache and i remember i used to feel much better after having a smoke, etc. etc. etc.". So while it seems like you're doing something wrong for a good purpose, it's just lying to yourself.

~wickerman~

"if you cannot be turned to the darkside...then perhaps she will"

in the blink of an eye luke goes insane and falls to the darkside. he was 100% rational moments before, dead set on NOT killing his father and willing to sacrifice himself. all of the sudden he's controlled by anger, because off one thing: he's afraid of losing someone very close to him.

vader made it clear that he would remain a roadblock to luke saving his friends so thus became his enemy. luckily, luke was able to snap back and regain his senses. but that scene in ep6 is proof of how quick the turn to the darkside is. luke was a second away from sealing his fate, and the only thing that brought him back was seeing the definite results of his action and how his fate would be sealed (vader's severed mechanical hand)

luke had the luxury of knowing first hand what it truly is to be a sith, where anakin didnt. anakin had no...reference if you will. the only sith apprentices he met were maul(briefly saw him), and dooku. none of which seemed like a tragic or enslaved figure, but rather all powerful and focused. although he hated them, he had no reason to pity them, no reason to see them for what they were...slaves.

the point i'm making is that the dark side IS like a drug, or so its presented. the second you let it take you, all rationale goes out the window. the absolute proof of this is when palps says that the jedi will kill all the senators and anakin agrees. its more like he's under a spell.

as far as "what have i done" i think rather than show the cinematic weakness of his turn, it illustrates the compassion of a ultimately invincible character. where most if not all others would have been lost, he has a moment of clarity. once palps reminds him of saving padme, anakin once again loses his mind. so rather than him falling right after he says "what have i done", i see it as him momentarily coming back to his wits....but then losing them alltogether.

I like this thread. There are some interesting points on both sides. STBluz... theshakl... PVS... nice thoughts!

I agree Anakin didn't seem to struggle with what he was doing as much as you'd expect. take the part where he cuts of Dookus head, its like he had just split some milk and then thought never mind no harm done

Originally posted by PVS
maul(briefly saw him)

Dum de duuum

Was that really in the movie? Anakin watching Maul? I REALLY can't remember since i ran from TPM like the plague.

~wickerman~

Originally posted by Wickerman
Dum de duuum

Was that really in the movie? Anakin watching Maul? I REALLY can't remember since i ran from TPM like the plague.

~wickerman~

yeah anakin saw him , when maul attacked qui gon the door of the ship was open and anakin was standing there with obi wan

Originally posted by grey fox
yeah anakin saw him , when maul attacked qui gon the door of the ship was open and anakin was standing there with obi wan

Aaaah, well, i can't remember that, but i'll take your word for it

~wickerman~

On a side note... it would have been cool if Maul had sensed the power in Anakin and had tried to kill him so that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon had to save him. Much more dramatic that someone would give up his life for Anakin only to have him repay the order later with betrayal.

Originally posted by DarkYoda
On a side note... it would have been cool if Maul had sensed the power in Anakin and had tried to kill him so that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon had to save him. Much more dramatic that someone would give up his life for Anakin only to have him repay the order later with betrayal.

KILLER COOL. I'll forward the idea to Lucas right away

~wickerman~

Originally posted by Wickerman
KILLER COOL. I'll forward the idea to Lucas right away

~wickerman~

SS is an ass! (that's putting it very mildly)

Originally posted by DarkYoda
SS is an ass! (that's putting it very mildly)

No, SS is supercool...he is a friend of Lucas...because of him we have Jar Jar...he'S so cool.

Anyway, back on topic.

I agree... the darkside is like a drug!

oh FFS we actually have a decent discussion in the forum and you guys have to hijack it with micky suttle talk? seriously please just let it go...PLEASE?

I agree with PVS...although I didn't like everything aboot the movie...the fall was not that bad...it could have been stretched a little more but in general it showed clearly what the dark side can do.

true, i also agree with PVS. It doesn;t NEED to show such an extended period of turning to the darkside. One mistake and there you go...down the entirely wrong path.
However, even if it wasn't necessary, such a presentation did indeed happen. Palpatine's constant approval of Anakin's evil actions and acceptance of strong emotions can count as a slow drift towards the dark side

~wickerman~

Originally posted by Wickerman
Palpatine's constant approval of Anakin's evil actions and acceptance of strong emotions can count as a slow drift towards the dark side

agreed...and to take that even further, anakin's fall began the moment he was taken from his mother "fear is the path to the darkside". anakin was set on that path from the beginning then wasnt he?

and what of the tusken slaughter? anakin fell to the dark side and slaughtered children...then came back and realised the evil of his actions. you might say that anakin proved to be quite strong in his ability to become saturated in and then reject the darkside, since he repeatedy fell and then came back. i doubt even luke would have been able to come back had he killed vader. anakin fell multiple times and still came back to his senses. maybe that is why people are confused about his fall. they expected a single convincing moment, but fail to realise that since ep1 its been a series of moments. his fear of losing padme was simply the straw that broke the camel's back. very similar to dr. jeckyle and mr. hyde, darth vader was there inside him all along.

Originally posted by PVS
agreed...and to take that even further, anakin's fall began the moment he was taken from his mother "fear is the path to the darkside". anakin was set on that path from the beginning then wasnt he?

and what of the tusken slaughter? anakin fell to the dark side and slaughtered children...then came back and realised the evil of his actions. you might say that anakin proved to be quite strong in his ability to become saturated in and then reject the darkside, since he repeatedy fell and then came back. i doubt even luke would have been able to come back had he killed vader. anakin fell multiple times and still came back to his senses. maybe that is why people are confused about his fall. they expected a single convincing moment, but fail to realise that since ep1 its been a series of moments. his fear of losing padme was simply the straw that broke the camel's back. very similar to dr. jeckyle and mr. hyde, darth vader was there inside him all along.
Yep that makes sence but he snapped out of being shocked by what he had done very quickly when he attacks Mace. Sid gives him a new name and everythings fine. By the way does anyone know why he's Darth Vada whats the Vada part mean?

vader is 'father' in dutch.
but as far as the purpose of his name in the film, i think it was just random.

Fair enough just would of been cool if it had a really good reason behind it. But I wonder what people would of done in Anakins postion, how far would of you taken it?

In my defense all I have to say is two quotes:

Yoda: "For once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will as it did with Obi-wan's apprentice."

Anikan: "And not just the men, but the women and the children too. They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals. I hate them!"

Originally posted by PVS
agreed...and to take that even further, anakin's fall began the moment he was taken from his mother "fear is the path to the darkside". anakin was set on that path from the beginning then wasnt he?

and what of the tusken slaughter? anakin fell to the dark side and slaughtered children...then came back and realised the evil of his actions. you might say that anakin proved to be quite strong in his ability to become saturated in and then reject the darkside, since he repeatedy fell and then came back. i doubt even luke would have been able to come back had he killed vader. anakin fell multiple times and still came back to his senses. maybe that is why people are confused about his fall. they expected a single convincing moment, but fail to realise that since ep1 its been a series of moments. his fear of losing padme was simply the straw that broke the camel's back. very similar to dr. jeckyle and mr. hyde, darth vader was there inside him all along.

Exactly. Every episode held a little something that pushed Anakin closer and closer to the dark side. And he kept going in and out which is something worth acknowledging. As for ep. 3 after the mace/sid fight, i'd say that was the moment he became aware of all this. Of his constant fiddling with the darkside and succumbed to its weight. I'm not sure if succumbing to it was voluntary or involuntary though...that's to be debated.

~wickerman~

Originally posted by PVS
agreed...and to take that even further, anakin's fall began the moment he was taken from his mother "fear is the path to the darkside". anakin was set on that path from the beginning then wasnt he?

and what of the tusken slaughter? anakin fell to the dark side and slaughtered children...then came back and realised the evil of his actions. you might say that anakin proved to be quite strong in his ability to become saturated in and then reject the darkside, since he repeatedy fell and then came back. i doubt even luke would have been able to come back had he killed vader. anakin fell multiple times and still came back to his senses. maybe that is why people are confused about his fall. they expected a single convincing moment, but fail to realise that since ep1 its been a series of moments. his fear of losing padme was simply the straw that broke the camel's back. very similar to dr. jeckyle and mr. hyde, darth vader was there inside him all along.

I agree. DV was in him. Although I would have liked to see more of him being evil and less of him being an ass before Episode III, I agree. He had a dark side to him to begin with. That's why he should not have been trained. Yoda and the council in the prequel trilogy were just stupid on so many levels.

ps: i wasn't sure if Vader means father in Dutch or Swedish or some other northern language (excuse my ignorance)

~wickerman~

The main problem with Anakin starting his training at his age was simple: he was a slave. No one took into consideration the ramifications that being a slave would have on Anakin. There was a built in hatred of his own bondage as well as other emotional issues that were trapped inside. Once freedom has been attained, it's not easy to give yourself back to bondage or even a form of bondage, such as a strict, rigid code like the Jedi. Anakin would have never been satisfied with the Order until he could change it to suit his ambitions. Anakin hated being a slave on so many levels, which is extremely ironic since he became a slave of the Dark Side for quite some time. He was also a slave to his emotions, which was the strength he used to cope with being a slave in the first place. Remember when he was a kid:

"You're a slave?"
"I'm a person and my name is Anakin!"

He despised his slavery. He despised being typecast. He wanted individualism from a young age, which he could never attain as a Jedi, at least not in the way he might have wanted.

So yes, there was darkness there from a young age, but it was the emotional baggage that screwed him. He was a slave, lost the only thing he had in his life, his mother, and then was about to lose his wife. He was totally screwed.

That's why I loved the "decision scene" as I like to call it, where he contemplates in the temple. He didn't need to scream, what have I done. The tears he shed on Mustafar was more than enough.

Thoughts?