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So as we all know, the emperor has the ability to shoot lightning out of his hands, as does Count Dooku. Since we haven't seen the movie yet, I'm still unsure if Yoda has this ability or not, although we do see in episode 2, that he can at least absorb and redirect it with his hands. It is a very rare skill also, because Obi wan has never done it, and neither has Mace Windu or Luke in episode 6.

So why can't Darth Vader do it? You would think, that the chosen one, a former jedi, and a very powerful one under the training of Palpy, would have learned the skill. If dooku can do it, after being turned to the dark side for a much shorter time then Vader was, surely Vader would have also picked up on the skill at some point. So why can't he? And while i'm at it, Maul was trained from a very young age under Palpy, and was also very skilled. Why can't he do it? Dooku having the skill seems to confuse the issue.

he has no real hands

This question seems like it should be in the Original Trilogy forum...please explain a bit more.

Force lightning is an aggresive use of the force so jedi would NEVER EVER use it. Jedi only use the force for defence, never for attack.

Darth Maul is centainly able to do force lightning, he just didnt do it in the movie.
And Vader cant do it because he has robotic hands (it is explained in the rots visual dictionary)

Grrr, robotic hands, I really am getting sick of Lucas' crappy explanations as to why Vader doesn't do certain things in the OT.

Even R2D2 can do lightning for f**ks sake, he's robotic.

To Vader couldn't do lightning because of some contrivance is bullshit. It would make MORE sense for Vader to be able to do MORE lightning because he has metal arms. Even if it wasn't the force, he could have a power transformer that generated it from his finger tips.

"It would interfere with his suit" - rubbish. Why? Circuitry.

Robotic hands my ass.

If he does force lighting, it could short circuit the suit, and he would die. Vader is not that strong because of the serve injuries his suffers. It makes perfect sense and it does not bother me at all.

ok then how come Vader in Ep 3 doesnt do it??? he's still all human. I dont think Maul could have done it cause he wasnt that bright, but Yoda, mace and Anakin COULD if they used the force for attack.

Don't you guys think that you might be a little obsessed with this particular ability?

why don't we just face the fact darth vader can't do force lightning

He was not on the dark side long enough to know how to do it. THink about, you do not just learn how to do force lighting over night. It takes time to learn how to use it, just like all the other force powers.

The thing is, having the ability should have nothing to do with whether you have hands or not. Using the force is a mind trick, so where the actual lightning eminates is irrelevent. I mean Palpy could probably shoot it out of his dik if he wanted too. So what if vader has robotic hands, he should still be able to summon the mental strength to do it and shoot it out of his robotic hands. I think the big mistake isn't that vader doesn't do it, but rather that Dooku does. I understand the emperor having the evil ability, but once they make Dooku have it, that means that maul and Vader should also definitely have and use it.

Are you really saying that Maul has the ability but chooses not to use it, when he is fighting 2 on 1? Come on. Fact is, if he could, he would have. Maul didn't have the ability, but somehow, Dooku does after only a short time under the dark side. Vader was a sith for way longer then Dooku. He should have all the skills dooku does and more.

in the game anakin uses force lightning when he is evil and he uses his robotic hand

It's just the whole rationalising BS for why we don't see Vader do it.

The "it will short circuit his suit" explanation is utter bullshit.

How would it? And like Vanquish stated, the hands are just ONE way of expelling the lightning.

Think about it, lightning is just force push. You use the force to collect electrons in the air and concentrate them into lightening. Vader easily has the power to summon lightening.

It doesn't come from INSIDE the person either, because it it frmed outside of the person doing. Another explanation as to why Vader robotic arms should not be an issue.

Also, Vader can't do it in Episode III because he isn't a master. By Episode IV he should be easily able to do it. Lucas should have just said "he didn't need it" rather than "he can't do it".

My point was that even if Vader lost his ability to use force lightening, he could still have lightening powers. He's a genius mechanic, he'd easily be able to make his arms fire lightening at twice the power.

Vader keeps getting weaker and weaker with these crappy explanations.

thats a game though

maul uses it in episode 1 game

vanquish and Red Superfly have it spot on Except for minor details... Jedi don't use dark force powers. Lightning being one of them.
For the most part, I agree with the concept that vader 'should' be able to conjure force lightning. Summoning the force as I percieve it has nothing to do with your physical self.

However I'll go defence for once... you could look at it this way!

Yoda on the force - "it surrounds us... luminous beings are we, not this crude matter... it's in you... me.. the rock.. the tree." Thought force powers are conjured from energy of the force in all things... it's IN jedi too. If it's in a tree its in a freakin' jedi.
Lightning is a force directly from the energy of the sith. Originating from their negative energy.. their hate etc. The sith powers more commonly come from sith beings themselves as they ARE more powerful. They don't draw on the living force. The living force is in everything else.
So, the means of using force lightning? the hands! The hands are commonly used to apply force powers. So quite possibly the lightning DOES come from the hand. Hense vaders problem... he don't have none... No luminous force hands for anikan. It's gotta be directed somehow... I'd like to see you aim lightning with your arse better than your hand .
And lightning for maul? Well I got the impression he didn't wanna cheat! Why the duel blade? He's a swordsman, he wanted to beat the jedi with raw skill.. because he was arrogant. maby he could use lightning... We didn't see him use any other dark force powers did we?
Dooku trained for 10 years with palpy while already being a council member with a lifetime of force experience.
Final thoughts
take a line from obi "your going to find many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of veiw." I think ultimately... there are so many details, they can mean whatever the hell you want them to mean. Otherwise you'll be discussing jedi philisophy and techniques for years.

Wouldn't the intense heat generated by thelightning damage his life support systems?

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Wouldn't the intense heat generated by thelightning damage his life support systems?

Erm... if it's coming out of him... yes.. he'd fry himself. But going by georges theory, he can't do it in the first place.
If your referring to Red Superfly's comments... well he's suggesting the lightning has nothing to do with coming out of Vader.. Just like yoda never touches the force when he absoarbs it.. and Like Vader absoarbs the laser blasts, getting shot by Han in episode 5.
It's all just one big contradiction.

I feel sorry for george.. if he changes more of the OT, he'll have a price on his head. So he settles with leaving it with the DVD eddition and having NT fans hating all the contradiction.

well, it's obviously hot enough to make Vader's skeleton glow through his armour and make Sidious' bone and flesh liquify and run down his face

Nah, I really think I will just chalk it up to yet another inconsistancy. I firmly believe that if Dooku has the skill, that Maul and Vader should also display the skill at some point in the movies to make it consistant. Or, Dooku should never have had it, and that would solve the thing also. Besides, Dooku is a sword master, not a force lightning master. It wasen't necessary to have him even do it in the films. His dominance is with a saber, so why confuse the issue further with something he obviously isn't a master of. makes no sense...

All because Dooku can do it doesn't mean Maul can do it. Maul isn't all that powerful, yes he was trained by Sidious, but maybe Maul doesn't have enough Midichlorians(SP?) to generate such power, he's a great swordsman better then Dooku but Dooku is far more powerful then Maul. Also I believe Vader can do it GL is just making up an excuse why he doesn't do it b/c its too late to change it...remember GL made up OT has he was going along, he probably just thought about force lightning when he was making EP VI so can show how powerful the Emperor is

Dooku can use force lightning so Yoda can deflect it like some beam battle out of Dragon Ball Z or the contest of wills in John Carpenter's Big Trouble in Little China. Note also that Yoda did a lot of unusual things for his first on screen battle: He actually fought; he fought ridiculously crazy, if he had just swung and ducked and not been a ninja hobbit on crack, it would not have awed audiences; Yoda busts a kung fu pose which was lame as hell; Yoda is too damn lazy to physically draw his lightsaber.

I have to give GL some credit... He knows that modern viewers are more awed by shiny and glowy rather than a fine plot. But anyways, Force Lightning doesn't burn Sidious's hands. It doesn't catch his cloak on fire, it doesn't make Dooku's nails peel back. Why would it hurt Vader if he could control it? The only half assed explanation I could offer people not willing to believe this is one nasty plot hole is that he never mastered it before becoming Cyrax... erm... I mean, Vader... and he didn't want to risk frying himself. Besides, it's not like he needed it.

The thing is, if people want a good explanation, the "his arms are robotic and they couldn't use it" explanation simply isn't good enough.

Like I said, lightening does not touch the user, it is generated OUTSIDE of the body.

Every force power is merely re-arranging atoms or moving molecules. Lightening is a result of a strong focus of force to gather electrons. Anyone with a finely tuned sense of the force can do it. It wouldn't even touch Vader.

The ONLY explanation is that Vader never needed force lightening.

To say that Vader doesn't use his hand to channel the force is absurd. Yes he does. Force choke anyone? Deflecting laser bolts maybe? Vader can use his mechanical arms to channel the force, simple as that. Therefore, lightening is well within his grasp, seeing it is merely atomic manipulation outside of the body.

The force merely moves things around, how you apply it is what defines the abilities. Force choke, force lightening, force anything, all comes under the same umbrella - moving atoms, electrons and particles at will.

I agree about it not being dangerous for vader to use. Luke got hit with it point blank for a long time and his clothes didn't even get burned, so of course vader and his suit would be just fine if he was the one shooting the lightning out of his robotic stump.

Although I can't agree with you that Vader didn't need it. He obviously did need it because Luke gave him a beat down at the end, and if he had the skill, he could have used it to beat Luke, or at least bring him to a squirming, screaming little b1tch like the emperor did.

Vader needed it and he should have had it, but he didn't and that is the most frustrating inconsistancy of the movie series for me.

I agree, incosistancy and cheap explanations, but the movies are still great.
Darth Maul in Episode I videogame was able to shoot lightnings, but I think that in the movie in wasn't showed cause his fighting style relies more on the saber and physical skills, he used force push and telekinesis to aid himself when strictly necessary, like when he moved the piece of droid to open the door, or the force push to knockback Obi-Wan.It was a kind of warrior code that prevents him to use the force in a cheap way.
Dooku on the other hand uses both force push and lightnings cause he's an old master with great experience and high level of mastery over the force.
I think that Anakin himself didn't use force lightnings even after becoming a Sith Lord cause he don't know how to, maybe Sidious didn't told him how to use them cause Anakin was becoming very powerful in quick time, and he was fearing that he could become a major threat to his position of Sith Master and leader of the future Empire.
Or maybe Anakin himself relies on the sword and physical skills like Maul, plus the use of force push or tk when strictly necessary, Sith doesn't mean: "Hey I'm a freakin Sith, it's lightning bolt time!"

I always thought that maul didn't use lightning because he viewed it as a crutch, preferring to take people down directly.

Originally posted by Vanquish


Although I can't agree with you that Vader didn't need it. He obviously did need it because Luke gave him a beat down at the end, and if he had the skill, he could have used it to beat Luke, or at least bring him to a squirming, screaming little b1tch like the emperor did.

Vader needed it and he should have had it, but he didn't and that is the most frustrating inconsistancy of the movie series for me.

I'm not sure Vader would have the same powerfull lightning as the emperor, so I'm not sure he could have used it to his advantage against luke. Luke was probably to powerfull to fall for Vaders tricks, because otherwise when Vader really wanted to win he could have used his favorite trick, force grip on luke. I think the battle between Vader and Luke only could be fought with a saber. Talking about grip I think it was the skill Vader prefered to use instead of lightning.

The lightning would still be touching Vader's fingertips right? So if their was any copper or silver or anything else that conducted electricity or heat in his metal hands, Vader would be damaged by it.

Maul has balls.. does he need to flash in the film to prove to you he has them? Maul was an arrogant sob who wanted to demean the jedi by beating them with raw skill of the saber. Dooku's a little ***** who force lightning's ani becuase he was offguard. Dookus old.. why take on 2 if you don't have too. It just IS that way... I don't see how I confused the issue, u're just confusing yourself.

Force lightning? I'll say again. I agree Red Superfly. But georges more detailed explenation is 'the force is in EVERYTHING'. Energy in jedi and sith beings. FOR SITH POWER the energy is transfered from themselves like all other sith powers. The living force is everywhere but not the darkside. They can only attain dark power from themselves... Just look at real electricity. Build up enough static, the body does transmit electricity from the body. It's plausable, but again.. I agree with Red Superfly...

And this forum shouldn't have been moved, it attains to all starwars and there's tonnes of forums just like it in the Episode 3 discussion.. moderation is screwed.

Originally posted by Red Superfly
It's just the whole rationalising BS for why we don't see Vader do it.

The "it will short circuit his suit" explanation is utter bullshit.

How would it? And like Vanquish stated, the hands are just ONE way of expelling the lightning.

Think about it, lightning is just force push. You use the force to collect electrons in the air and concentrate them into lightening. Vader easily has the power to summon lightening.

It doesn't come from INSIDE the person either, because it it frmed outside of the person doing. Another explanation as to why Vader robotic arms should not be an issue.

Also, Vader can't do it in Episode III because he isn't a master. By Episode IV he should be easily able to do it. Lucas should have just said "he didn't need it" rather than "he can't do it".

My point was that even if Vader lost his ability to use force lightening, he could still have lightening powers. He's a genius mechanic, he'd easily be able to make his arms fire lightening at twice the power.

Vader keeps getting weaker and weaker with these crappy explanations.

Who the heck gave you the idea that this is the main reason?

Vader has lost a lot of his power by then, that struck me as a rather good reason.

In fact, we don't have any particualr reason to think that he is an amazing force user. What have we seen him do? Choke a few people and throw a few things. Woo-hoo.

Face it, Vader is not in Dooku's class- no matter how much you want him to be.

every experianced force user can do it. as well as force grip. but dont because it is a very cruel force power to use and jedi arent cruel.

ubidoobascooby, your sig rules.

Vader not using lightning is not a contrivance or bs. In fact the idea of creating circuitry in his hands to do it is far more contrived than simply stating that he does not have the ability due to his lack of hands. Furthermore where is it ever stated that force lightning is simply a force push of electrons?

Originally posted by Lord Banshee
Force lightning is an aggresive use of the force so jedi would NEVER EVER use it. Jedi only use the force for defence, never for attack.

Darth Maul is centainly able to do force lightning, he just didnt do it in the movie.
And Vader cant do it because he has robotic hands (it is explained in the rots visual dictionary)

I thought he only got one hand cut off?

In response to Mace Skywalker: Lord Vader has two cybernetic arms, as detailed on this web page: <theforce.net/swtc/injuries.html>
Also in response to Umraan: In ROTJ Luke Skywalker uses the force grip on the guards when first entering Jabba's palace. Now to the topic of the forum. If the reason Lord Vader can't do force lightning is because he has two cybernetic arms, then why can he do the force grip/choke. If he can use his hands to direct the force in one way why not another? Also, maybe the reason that he cannot do force lightning is because Palpatine didn't want to teach him to. In ROTS, Palpatine speaks of the story of Darth Plagues the Wise, which is that Darth Plagues taught his apprentice all he knew, and then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. Maybe the reason Palpatine withheld the knowledge of how to do force lightning from Lord Vader is because he feared for his life, and did not want to risk suffering the fate of Darth Plagues. And in ROTS, Palpatine acknowledges the fact that Lord Vader can become more powerful than him. (He says this while fighting Yoda). So My guess is that he is trying to prevent this from happening.

Originally posted by Lord Banshee
Force lightning is an aggresive use of the force so jedi would NEVER EVER use it. Jedi only use the force for defence, never for attack.

Darth Maul is centainly able to do force lightning, he just didnt do it in the movie.
And Vader cant do it because he has robotic hands (it is explained in the rots visual dictionary)

But there is a problem with the Robotic hand theory, why can vader use Force Choke and Force Push with his Robotic limbs if he cant use force lighting with robotic arms.

Originally posted by Lazerlike42
Vader not using lightning is not a contrivance or bs. In fact the idea of creating circuitry in his hands to do it is far more contrived than simply stating that he does not have the ability due to his lack of hands. Furthermore where is it ever stated that force lightning is simply a force push of electrons?

Because logic would assume that's where it comes from. Lightning doesn't hurt the user, so it can't be touching them can it?

And, seeing as the Force is an energy, that holds us all together and binds us, then it's pretty damn obvious that lightning is just a way of re-arranging certain electrons again. The force's "magic" works with the universes "science". Science and religion tend to compliment each other, as Lucas has stated before, as opposed to disprove each other.

The idea that Vader simply lost power is decent enough. I don't see any reason as to why his mechanical limbs would have anything to do with not being able to use lightning, thats all.

It's probably because the force choke is his trademark and not the force lightning.

Vader can't use Force lightnig, due to mechanical hands and cyborg attachments. Force Lightning requires power from the Living Force and it is part of the Dark Side of the Force. That is why Jedi don't use it.

You'd think he'd just put step up transformers in his gloves and channel it through his stumps, through the transformers, to make stronger lightning.

Remember, force lightning is correctly known as Sith Lightning. It is known that 'The Jedi possess no exact equivalent to such a dark use of the force'. All sith would have the ability to conjure it, but it clearly takes years of experience. Maul and Anakin were both young, insufficient experience to conjure Sith Lightning. Tyranus on the other hand, was only just beginnig to understand sith lightning. Dooku uses one handed Sith lightning, unable to se the full strength of two. It is important to remember that. The most powerful conjurer of lightning was Sidious

AS for Yoda, he is unable to conjure it. The Jedi cannot. It equires complete dedication to the dark side. Yoda is the only Jedi I know who can deflect Sith Lightning.

Originally posted by Red Superfly
To say that Vader doesn't use his hand to channel the force is absurd. Yes he does. Force choke anyone?

In Ep V didn't Vader Force Choke what's his name for coming out of Lightspeed too close to Hoth without using his hands?

Yeah, I wasn't disputing that. Some people just take things completely out of context and twist words just for the sake of being stupid.

Originally posted by adamrubin
in the game anakin uses force lightning when he is evil and he uses his robotic hand

so what, cheese boy?

Originally posted by Red Superfly
Some people just take things completely out of context and twist words just for the sake of being stupid.

Sorry that wasn't what I meant. I was trying to just back up the idea that he doesn't need to use his hands to direct it. Sorry.

I'm not sure its true that vader can't use force lightning. In EpIII the game, Darth vader can use lightning both in and out of the suit. The reason he didn't use it in the movies is because George Lucas didn't think of it until Ep 6, and he couldn't suddenly make vader use it. The audience would say 'hold up, how long has he been able to do this' and the movie may get a bad write up. Even so, I believe that vader can use lightning. He is the definition of powerful. Vader rules.

As for the games, I don't consider the movie games canonical because they must include force lightning because it will attract more players, because children get a kick out of frying people with it! So just because Maul or Vader does it in the games, doesn't mean they can actually do it.

Every Jedi/Sith focuses on different skills of the force. Jedi Knight Jedi Academy shows us this. I believe any Sith could use lightning if that was one of their skills, but Vader didn't choose to embrace it. Maul was an elite swordsman, so he didn't need lightning. Dooku has it but wasn't near as powerful with it as Sidious. Vader could have had it, but he chose to focus on his skills with the blade as well as force grip instead. I don't like the statement that he couldn't do it because of his suit, but I have no problem with him not having done it.

The debate rages on.

Look, Vader can't use it. He never does. He never will, unless GL gets tired of hatemail from Vader fanboys.

Now, Dooku can use it. Maul may be able to use it, but he doesn't. Actually, Maul relies very little on the Force, using it for simple, almost silly reasons. Dooku's knowledge of the Force is enough to stalemate with Yoda (Or so it appears in AOTC). In ROTS, he Force chokes a Jedi Master (Obi-Wan) and chucks him like a ragdoll. Instead of everyone saying he shouldn't have used it, I would expect to see arguments saying he should be the only one besides Sidious to use it. I mean, Sidious was the top dark lord. It's only natural for him. And Count Dooku is an eighty year old former Jedi master with about ten years of Sith training, at least. If he can't do Force lightning, no one should be able to.

Vader cannot do it. its not in the movies.

Maul cannot do it. its not in the movies.

Dooku can do it.

Palpatine can do it.

Yoda cannot for obvious reasons that you need to be extremly powerful in the darkside.

btw, Dooku is far more skilled then maul in every way possible.

Maul was more of a pawn of Sidious...it never seemed like he had a mind of his own. I don't consider him a very powerful Sith lord, although he was very skilled in martial arts. Dooku IMO is a lot more powerful than he is given credit for. Although he wasn't as strong in the force as Vader, he had far more experience, giving him greater skill. Anakin really showed his power when he beat Dooku though. Just because Vader couldn't do lightning, doesn't mean he wasn't the second most powerful Sith of all time. Think about it....vader's signature skill...choke, is far more deadly than Lightning. Sure, it doesn't look as flashy, but if you really want to do some damage fast, choke is a much better way to do it. It takes a lot of lightning to kill a person...look at how long Luke was tormented, and although he writhed in pain, he still lived.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Vader cannot do it. its not in the movies.

Maul cannot do it. its not in the movies.

Dooku can do it.

Palpatine can do it.

Yoda cannot for obvious reasons that you need to be extremly powerful in the darkside.

btw, Dooku is far more skilled then maul in every way possible.
no. it's not cause it's not in the movies that they can't do it. If something is in the movies it's because it is needed to further the plot not to show fancy tricks.

I don't think Vader ever used a Force Jump in the OT, doesn't mean he can't

I think it's a lame excuse that vader has robot hans and thats why he cant use lightning. I though it came from the force which is from the midichlorians in their body, not their hands. Wouldent a sith just be able to use his mind to use lightning. I think Vader can't do it in the OT because GL wanted Palpatine seem much more powerful than him.

Originally posted by beedubaya
vader's signature skill...choke, is far more deadly than Lightning.

I agree fully; Vader didn't use lightening because he didn't need to. I'd expect even the Emperor would start considering his own mortality if his throat started closing. It's more stealthy as well - look at how Luke entered Jabba's palace. He walked in, waved his hand and the guards collapsed against the walls. Plus, Vader can use Force Choke without even being present. Could anyone have put lightning through the video screen to burn Admiral Ozzel? I think not. Lighning is not all it's cracked up to be, and it can be deflected with a lightsaber. Nuff said...

You have to be careful with that line of rational though man, because Yoda never took a $hit in the movies either, but I assume he knows how

Just because something didn't take place in the movies, doesn't mean it can't. I think that is the very essense of why these forums have such long debates. If it was so cut and dry to just say, if its not in the movie it didn't happen. Well, then this forum wouldn't exist now would it?

Figures.

If Force choke was something Vader could just do to other Jedi in combat, he would have Force choked everone from Han Solo to Luke Skywalker to Sidious (Since he clearly hated Sidious). I think you're mistaking a power that was used on non-Force users and applying it as something more then it is. I would HOPE that a Force user could counter the telekinesis behind a Force choke, seeing as it's an extension of the Force.

Now, Sith lightning is something completely unnatural, and while it can be blocked, it's obviously stronger than a choke. If it wasn't, Sidious would just Force choke Luke when he said "And now you will die" or he would have Force choked Mace Windu, Obi-Wan, Yoda, etc.

So take that idea and flush it. It's stupid.

Second, Dooku may have been beaten by Anakin (And it was a good move by the boy, but Dooku was clearly toying with him.) but his Force mastery beats Anakin's Force potential every time. ROTS Anakin, at the height of his pre-suit power, could not overcome Obi-Wan in a Force shoving match... and yet Dooku can throw Obi-Wan around like a ragdoll. Where comes the logic that Anakin was better?

Off Topic, but thank you, i'm glad i'm not the only one that thinks that. I thought the movies made it quite clear actually that Dooku was on a level much beyond Anakin. I don't think it should have been that way because he is supposed to be at his prime, but it clearly was. Dooku was on a level, approaching palps and Yoda actually. I'm sure either palps or Yoda could have made short work of Dooku in a fight, but still, he was the third most powerful person in the trilogies. Anakin was never portrayed as being that powerful actually. The only time he gets close, is in the Dooku fight, and lets face it, Dooku and palps had a plan that he would intentionally lose that fight. Dooku just didn't know he was getting played by palps that's all. If Dooku wanted to, he would have won that fight.

Exactly. Yes, I thought so from the moment I saw the movie.

Duh it takes anger and peace over anger honor ove hat and strength over fear

yeah, i always thorght Dooku was much better than Anakin

I don't think Dooku threw the fight with Anakin. I'd imagine rather the opposite, that Sideous told him to destroy Anakin. If Dooku could destroy Anakin, Sideous would have no use for him, much the same way he then pitted Vader against Anakin. The Sideous/Windu fight I find more debatalbe, because for a guy who supposedly got his ass so badly kicked, Sideous got up fully recovered pretty fast.

As to the hands, the Star Wars Visual dictonary (Which I would consider as cannon for obvious reasons) states it outright: Vader cannot use force lightning because force lightning needes to be created inside the hands. As to making "Conductive hands", it woudln't work. Needs to be living hands. Same reason that jedi can do all those super acrobatic acts that vader no longer can: he cannot channel the force into his arms and legs. The same principles are why vader was hurt by force lightning so badly: His life support was shorted out.


Hands are not needed for force chocking or general telekinesis, though I'm guessing so many people do it because it feels natural to do so. However, if hands were needed for telekinesis, Luke couldn't have lifted those rocks in ESB, nor could Vader have pummeled him with all those objects.

Now, if we go into EU for a moment, force storm is basically what happens when you create force lightning without using your hands. I imagine in theory vader could learn that, and did show an early ability in it in Splinter of the minds eye (which, I concede right now, is probaby the most logically non-cannonical of all the books) though I imagine force storm compared to force lighting is particularly hard.

At any rate, back to definitie canon, vader can't use force lightning, he can use force choke. Not to mention it's kinda his preferred move, so of course he's good at it. Displays the best range with the stuff of anybody in the movie. Obviously a lot of practice.

I agree with some observations, and while i like your take on Dooku versus Anakin, I have to disagree. I could tell immediately that Dooku was using a weaker, less refined fighting style (nothing likehis earlier AOTC fencing) and he was taunting Skywalker. Dooku was good, and he had good reason to want to toy with Skywalker. But in the situation they were in, with a battle raging on and the Separatists on the verge of losing the space battle, it doesn't make sense for Dooku (assuming he WAs giving it his all) to spend any more time with Skywalker than absolutely neccessary. Now, Dooku took Obi out of the fight rather easily and with use of the Force when Obi-Wan was caught off guard. Don't tell me Dooku wouldn't have tried to push Anakin to charge him and then elminate the boy. No, the most sensible explanation was that Dooku was ordered to toy with Skywalker, and was probably told to throw the fight, that Sidious would save him at the last moment. And the idea that Dooku would try and betray his master by NOT simply toying with Anakin this far in the game isn't sensible either. If he killed Anakin and had to fight Sidious right then and there... assuming he survived the duel he would still be captured by the Republic and the Jedi council and imprisoned for the murder of Anakin Skywalker and the chancellor. His best chances lie with Sidious' plan.

Now, your theory about force lightning I like, but if it were true, the reprocussions (especially in the SW versus forum.. lol) would be great. Suddenly OT Vader isn't as fast NOT because of 70s and 80s movie making technology but because of his own limitations with his body and the Force.

It's not a theory, It's stated right in the visual dictionary. Which, as I said, because Lucas contributed to it as much as he did, makes it canon as far as I'm concerned. It was also stated again in the young readers novelization of ROTS again, in an interesting added scene where Sideous mulls over if he should bother saving Anakin/Vader or not.

Now yes, we all know he's slow because of 70's and 80's movie making. I concede that. I've said myself in other threads that if Episode 4 were being made today, Vader and Obi Wan's fight would be a puter-fu extravaganza. And it is no doubt because of that it was put out in the dictonary that way as a convenient explanation, but it's one that still makes sense.

My take on Anakin/Dooku, on the other hand, is purely my theory. It also depends on if Sideous actually revealed his dual identity to Tyrannus. At first I assume he must have, but General Grevious seemed to have no idea who Sideous was in Clone wars, which gave me pause. The fact Dooku didn't reveal his master after his betrayl (speaking of betrayl, having the master tied up would be a damn good time to kill him, I can't see Sideous making himself that vulterable. With maul maybe, but not to his far more intelligent and independent apprentace in Tyranus)

What possible reason would Dooku have to throw the fight though? I assume Sideous wouldn't let him know he was considering a replacement, and if he was trying to goad skywalker into the dark side, well, that makes a very big risk when you throw the fight. And again, if he did know, considering that Palpatine was all tied up, how could he help his apprentace? If Dooku was holding back, I'm more inclined to believe he was doing so on his own initiative, hoping to get a new recruit or just perhaps just wanting to toy with the boy, not realizing how dangerous that really was.

You again make some good points.

But as for the ROTS novelisation, that is quasi-canon at best. Since the novelisation deviates from the movie more than any other novelisation, I've rather chalked it up as a Vader/Sidious fanboy bible. I mean, really... the only people who cite ROTS novelisation are trying to prove Vader or Sidious kick more ass than person B. It's never a good thing said about Yoda, Obi-Wan, Mace Windu or anything.

As for the Visual Dictionary, they aren't canon. The ROTS visual dictionary is written by James Luceno, who is a fiction writer. Unless I failed to find it, there is no line that says Lucas proofread and agreed with everything in any visual dictionary, and the idea that GL sits around and proofreads ANYTHING that comes out is ridiculous. There is proof he knows some of EU, as shown by Aayla Secura and a few other things... But really, the true definition of canon is GL's words, the movies, and radio plays on the movies. Nothing else. The visual dictionary runs as quasi-canon and, depending on the author and just how badly they twisted things, its level of quasi-canon and range from BS to Sounds About Right. But just because it makes sense doesn't mean its the answer in this situation. I mean, I'd like to think the visual dictionary was right, but I have this feeling that it'll be a dead end.

Now, as far as Dooku not knowing who Sidious was, this is not true. Why?

- Dooku obviously had Sith training with Sidious for about 13 years. He walked side by side with Sidious on Coruscant at the end of AOTC. If he couldn't tell from any of those times that Sidious was Palpatine, he must be either the dumbest Sith lord of all time or Sidious has a new, previously unmentioned Fool Dooku feat.

- GG is an alien, and some aliens don't notice how close or different humans look. GG's only experience with Sidious are in the form of cowled, half visible recordings. In LOE, Grievous has no idea who Sidious is as he captures him, but he suspects.

I've since relooked at a few things and concede the point, Dooku had to have known. Guess he still thought he had something to learn, cause I would have made a point of wakling around the chair, talking about whatever, then putting my saber through the back of the seat and the old man's chest. I still don't think he was outright ordered to throw the fight though. And I'm wonder if perhaps, in Anakins current power and agression, perhaps Dooku couldn't use the force on him the way he did Obi Wan.

So we don't consider the ROTS novel to be cannon now? I thought the general agrement on the board was that the Novelizations (which did back up the visual dictionary on this subject) were canon. Very well. I still don't see how the argument about force lightning is in anyway flawed. We do know that Vader is very suspectable to force lightning: ROTJ proves this. We also know he has no hands. Even assuming he could generate force lightning from the stumps where his natural flesh begins, he would short his own life support out and likely die shortly thereafter. At the very least, he'd ruin his own robotic hands and probably wouldn't be able to aim very well with the stuff anyway.

Ah, about the novelisation... NONE of them are canon, though why this applies to ANh (as it was written by GL himself) I can only guess. The OT novelisations tend to be closer to the movies than the PT.

Because it wasn't written by GL. It was written by Alan Dean Foster. He ghost wrote it for GL; not a word of it is from George.

The ANH novelisation?

Yup.

Gotcha.

I think Dooku was ordered the throw the fight, but I don't think he expected to be killed, I mean let's look at the way he looked at Palpatine when he ordered Anakin to kill him...

On the other hand, if he did throw the fight, why did Palpatine order him killed? Surely if Dooku could beat Anakin then why take Anakin as an apprentice?

He can in the Episode III video game.

Wow, that means nothing.

Actually palpatine knew that anakin could beat dooku, you got to remember that palpatine planned all of this.

I was just pointing it out.

Originally posted by Darth Nhilus
Actually palpatine knew that anakin could beat dooku, you got to remember that palpatine planned all of this.

Uh, no.

Well then, why did Palpatine to kill Dooku?

The extent to which Palpatine planned anything in the movies centers around him gaining power. If he knew that Anakin would beat Dooku without having to tell Dooku to throw the fight, he would have to be the most prophetic genius ever made. A jedi master and now sith of 80 some years of experience in what has to be the best fighting style in the series versus an arrogant headstrong youth with nowhere near a third of that experience will win a fight with Dooku giving it his all?

Please... ridiculous.

I meant to put, Why did Palpatine tell Anakin to kill Dooku?

To feed the darkside within him, and to remove Dooku (a potential threat) from the equation.

Yup. Sith do that.

Yeah. Treachery is the way of the Sith.

Yup.




































Why are we talking Ep3 in the Ep4-6 fourm.

bekuz pr0n rulez!!!!!! zOMG!!!!

i honestly think that when RotJ was made, GL intended for force lightning to be a power exclusive to palpatine. just in the way that his power remained shrouded and in the end, and is unleashed solely in the form of lightning. as if he is so powerful with that darkside that he can use it in ways vader cannot.

then the PT comes out and GL gives out force lightning power to sith lords like its government cheese.

not interested in debating that, its just my take.

No, I agree with you, PVS. It was clearly originally meant as a cinematic demonstration of the Emperor's superiority.

Ushgarak, that lightsaber in your picture is Sifo-Dyas' lightsaber.
http://www.thelightsaber.com/HistorySabers/SmallPics/SifoDyasSM.jpg