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The setting: Kuat Drive Yards, with lightsabers only.

Zett.

Luke.

^ Er... Okay.

Originally posted by Sorgo
^ Er... Okay.

yeah

Zett beats him into the ground.

How good is Zett?

Good enough to take down an untrained Skywalker.

Luke wins.

...how?

Zett winning? Meh... I don't know...

Originally posted by Captain REX
...how?

Because Luke is good at this point.

You know what bothers me it that everyone complains about Luke being good after just a week or so of training, but look at Nomi. She had about the same as Luke by ROTJ and she defeated that Krath girl. With like a week of training she killed like 20 mercenaries.

Nomi also had the raw force ability to strip Ulic of the Force indefinately, among other things. Nomi was pretty damn strong, and her husband was a jedi.

Luke, on the other hand, is a farmboy turned pilot who is given a lightsaber. This hardly equates into masterful use of it. At least Zett escaped Order 66 and ambushed/WTFpwned like five or six Clone Troopers. ESB Luke in Bespin wouldn't have such luck.

Luke was a match for Vader. Vader had trouble fighting Luke just watch their fight again.

Escaped six clone troopers before being shot to pieces, if I am right.

Wait, where does Zett appear? I mean, what book?

Originally posted by Faroth
Wait, where does Zett appear? I mean, what book?

He's the smartass kid of Lucas and he appears in the ROTS Movie as Zett Jukassa.

He kills a few stormtroopers (The first ones he killed he caught by suprise, might I add) and then he gets his sorry ass shot down like a fruit.

Typical

His first name name was going to be Titi.... But anyways... Luke wins.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Nomi also had the raw force ability to strip Ulic of the Force indefinately, among other things. Nomi was pretty damn strong, and her husband was a jedi.

Luke, on the other hand, is a farmboy turned pilot who is given a lightsaber. This hardly equates into masterful use of it. At least Zett escaped Order 66 and ambushed/WTFpwned like five or six Clone Troopers. ESB Luke in Bespin wouldn't have such luck.

Wait, so you think Nomi had more raw power then Luke or something? Point is that she had just as little training as Luke. Luke was a farmboy, but Nomi was anti-weapons for a long time and refused to pick up a lightsaber until it was required to defend others.

Zett didn't escape Order 66. He got blasted to pieces just shortly after it started. The Younglings lasted alomst as long.

Originally posted by Sorgo
He's the smartass kid of Lucas and he appears in the ROTS Movie as Zett Jukassa.

He kills a few stormtroopers (The first ones he killed he caught by suprise, might I add) and then he gets his sorry ass shot down like a fruit.


mmmm fruit droolio

I don't know how long did Luke train in the lightsaber between ANH and TESB.

Zett certainly has more than three years of lightsaber training.

Shame on you for stealing my sweetheart Zett Jukassa thread idea.
As for him Zett being the uber master to Luke, yeah.. Zett is amazing although there is always an incredible distance in power in jedi comparison.

I mean, Zett probably had more time to train and that is the deciding factor, it's also the reason why the amazing Yoda could kill everyone but didn't.

/\ Star Wars in a nutshell.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Wait, so you think Nomi had more raw power then Luke or something? Point is that she had just as little training as Luke. Luke was a farmboy, but Nomi was anti-weapons for a long time and refused to pick up a lightsaber until it was required to defend others.

Zett didn't escape Order 66. He got blasted to pieces just shortly after it started. The Younglings lasted alomst as long.

Actually, it's possible that Ulic, Kun, Nomi and others had more raw power than Luke. Luke simply had one parent who was genetically modified and a mother who wasn't even Force sensitive. Since midi-chlorian ratings weren't even used in Nomi's time, it would be foolish to assume that earlier force users are weaker or stronger than Luke just because Anakin had the highest midi-chlorian count of the PT era.

Bottom line? Can't argue raw power without knowing their midi-chlorian levels. Hell, you can't argue Luke's, even with pseudo-genetic mumbojumbo. I think it's ridiculous to compare Nomi to Luke when Nomi had a jedi husband, lived around the Order when it was active and well, and learned techniques from a jedi master apparently.

Luke is a farmboy who had never seen the force or a lightsaber until he was at least 20 years old. Go figure.


And on Zett... So glad you took the one statement I made that didn't have any real weight behind it and attacked it. Zett slipped out of the jedi temple during Order 66 and was able to ambush a Clone Trooper patrol. While the elements of his escape aren't known and don't really factor into his abilities, the fact that he fought incredibly well for a youngling does.

And I highly doubt that Zett died before the younglings, Glentract. The younglings were easily the first to die, since no one had bothered to hide them or protect them. Wouldn't you think so? Let me take that one step further- the jedi temple was shown in a scene featuring Padme and C-3PO, where it was smoking in the distance. I have the same pic in my signature right now. It was clearly daylight ( I have the pic on my home computer.) When Senator Organa realizes something is wrong and arrives, it's clearly night. So unless Coruscant has a fifteen, twenty minute rotation, several HOURS past since the younglings died and the temple was attacked, and the time when Zett died.

Anything else?

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Actually, it's possible that Ulic, Kun, Nomi and others had more raw power than Luke. Luke simply had one parent who was genetically modified and a mother who wasn't even Force sensitive. Since midi-chlorian ratings weren't even used in Nomi's time, it would be foolish to assume that earlier force users are weaker or stronger than Luke just because Anakin had the highest midi-chlorian count of the PT era.

Bottom line? Can't argue raw power without knowing their midi-chlorian levels. Hell, you can't argue Luke's, even with pseudo-genetic mumbojumbo. I think it's ridiculous to compare Nomi to Luke when Nomi had a jedi husband, lived around the Order when it was active and well, and learned techniques from a jedi master apparently.

Luke is a farmboy who had never seen the force or a lightsaber until he was at least 20 years old. Go figure.

Luke was 18 in ANH

Even if we look at Ulic with all his Jedi training, greater access to teachers, better access to Jedi knowledge, and his Sith Amulets he is weaker then Luke, who still hasn't reached he full potential by Dark Nest. I find it very unlikely that Nomi had a greater potential then Ulic. Luke should logically have a greater force potential.

Luke at least knew how to use weapons. He was able to kill several stormtroopers in ANH and didn't need any instruction with the quad laser turrets in ANH either. Nomi was anti-weapons.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
And on Zett... So glad you took the one statement I made that didn't have any real weight behind it and attacked it. Zett slipped out of the jedi temple during Order 66 and was able to ambush a Clone Trooper patrol. While the elements of his escape aren't known and don't really factor into his abilities, the fact that he fought incredibly well for a youngling does.

Lets look at the other one then. Zett killed 5 or 6 Clone Troopers. Luke killed at least 10 in ANH and then shot down two tie fighters. Also, in ESB Luke killed another 10 or so guys with his blaster. Sure this doesn't help saber skills directly, but he's also survived a fight with Vader twice at this point. And if we compare how Luke fought next to ANH Obi-wan, they are about equal. Can Zett defeat Obi-wan?

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
And I highly doubt that Zett died before the younglings, Glentract. The younglings were easily the first to die, since no one had bothered to hide them or protect them. Wouldn't you think so? Let me take that one step further- the jedi temple was shown in a scene featuring Padme and C-3PO. It was clearly daylight ( I have the pic on my home computer.) When Senator Organa realizes something is wrong and arrives, it's clearly night. So unless Coruscant has a fifteen, twenty minute rotation, several HOURS past since the younglings died and the temple was attacked, and the time when Zett died.

Anything else?

Janus, look at when Anakin and the 501st march into the Temple. It's dark as can be at that time. I suggest you also look at the seen with Padme again. It's clearly night.

Look at that seen against too. The Youglings were hidden in the Council Chamber.

Luke was 18 in ANH

Was he? Where did I get 20 from then?


Even if we look at Ulic with all his Jedi training, greater access to teachers, better access to Jedi knowledge, and his Sith Amulets he is weaker then Luke, who still hasn't reached he full potential by Dark Nest. I find it very unlikely that Nomi had a greater potential then Ulic. Luke should logically have a greater force potential.

I'd really, really like to say at this point that Luke shouldn't be that powerful, since his father who had more potential couldn't do anything anywhere near him, but that would be spitting in the face of evidence.

In any case, working with what we do have, I submit that it's impossible to determine raw potential without a midi-chlorian count. Even when Ulic seems less powerful than Luke (And Luke is pretty old by Dark Nest, btw) this doesn't preclude that he has equal or more potential. Same with Nomi. So we really shouldn't be comparing them as you have, since we have nothing to work with.

Luke at least knew how to use weapons. He was able to kill several stormtroopers in ANH and didn't need any instruction with the quad laser turrets in ANH either. Nomi was anti-weapons.

Eh? My four year old cousin can shoot a gun, and the quad laser turret does seem a bit unusual, but the working of a gun turret doesn't equate anything but feat wars. I could say next that Nomi can sew and dance, but those don't relate to force potential either.


Lets look at the other one then. Zett killed 5 or 6 Clone Troopers. Luke killed at least 10 in ANH and then shot down two tie fighters. Also, in ESB Luke killed another 10 or so guys with his blaster. Sure this doesn't help saber skills directly, but he's also survived a fight with Vader twice at this point.

Numbers of those killed doesn't really add up like that, Glentract. Zett was on screen for all of a minute. Luke starred in three movies. Go figure.

And my original point was that Zett looked and acted pretty bad ass for a mere padawan. He's been jedi-trained and did not hesitate to kill. The fact that he was able to make it to the landing pad makes me as bit impressed; Luke wasn't exactly a stealthy, deadly sort in the OT.

And if we compare how Luke fought next to ANH Obi-wan, they are about equal. Can Zett defeat Obi-wan?

This was ridiculous to state. You are basically saying that Luke = Obi-Wan, without proof, despite evidence and perceptions to the contrary, and then saying can Zett > Obi-Wan? Horrible logic. Don't try it again, please.


Janus, look at when Anakin and the 501st march into the Temple. It's dark as can be at that time. I suggest you also look at the seen with Padme again. It's clearly night.

You're right about the marching scene, I might have been wrong. I'll double check tonight.


Look at that seen against too. The Youglings were hidden in the Council Chamber.

I wouldn't call that hidden. And if the jedi felt that the temple was in danger, they should have rationally sent someone to watch over the children, prferably many someones. Therefore I submit that the death of the younglings was very early into the siege.

Zett wins, but it would die later on.

Luke easily... wait. When in TESB? If it's Luke from the beginning he might lose... but anytime after he leaves Dagobah he'd PWN.



I have 19. Seriously, I'm not kidding.

Luke from the beginning, then.

I thought Luke was 17 in ANH.

I think that in Empire's End, Leia's compared to Nomi Sunrider....and Plageuis or no, the Skywalkers are still manifestations of the Force.

No, they're not. There's no canon evidence of them being "manifestations of the Force". We have the blurry recount of a slave woman and the clear and obvious nudge that Plageus created Anakin, which I believe may even be supported in some source material.

Plageuis also believed any child would be a manifestation of the Force itself

Then Jett. Luke's recieved a bit of lightsaber training from Obi-Wan (which, as far as we know, was all blocking lasers and stretching out with your feelings and no saber to saber practice). Between ANH and TESB logically Luke would have trained himself but without a teacher he probably didn't get much stronger. Zett was able to take out how many Clones? Four? And he cought them by surprise but still... prolly he'd win.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Plageuis also believed any child would be a manifestation of the Force itself

Where is this?

New Essential Chronology. Possibly Dark Lord as well

First I've heard of this. Alright, suppose you're right. Suppose that Anakin is born of the Force; does this mean Anakin > all? Even if the Prophecy was in fact an instance of the force creating a being for the purpose of maintaining balance, this leaves questions unanswered:

- How is Anakin the ONLY case of this?

- How is Anakin neccessarily the best/strongest/wisest/most able saber/force user of all time because he was born of the Force? Would it not make more sense, assuming the Force meant for him to be uber perfect, for him to have been born good instead of shallow and tempermental? We know that Anakin has the highest midi-chlorian count in the PT times, but we don't know the midi-chlorian counts of later or earlier times. How can we simply say Anakin is the pinnacle of all raw force potential without the numbers to back it up?

- Anakin was defeated by Dooku, and later on by Obi-Wan. Clearly raw potential does not equate victory. It does not totally outstrip those of better intelligence or experience.

anakin later killed both Dooku and Obi-wan, and considering he's the only Chosen One, chosen to bring balance and destroy the Sith...in the EU, there's no question of the sKywalkers being more in tune with the Force than any one else...at three occasions at least, they became physical, pure conduits of the Force. And who says the Jedi didn't record midichlorians back in the day?

Explaining the Force and its intentions is like attempting to explain God....it's impossible, completely. Perhaps it needed Anakin that way to be redeemed by his son and kill Palpatine

Originally posted by Lightsnake
anakin later killed both Dooku and Obi-wan, and considering he's the only Chosen One, chosen to bring balance and destroy the Sith

Anakin's killing of Dooku was extremely fortunate and many consider it to be more Dooku being careless and holding back then Anakin being a sabergod. And if you consider Obi-Wan's death as a legitimate kill, that's ridiculous. He clearly let himself die. My five year old cousin can see that. Neither of those answer the questions I'm getting at in any case.



I could argue that others did the same. In particular, the Exile and Nihilus are considered wounds in the Force itself. Their nature is unparelled. Should I assume they are the anti-Chosen One and thus able to pwn all? The Skywalkers may have become extremely close with the Force, but does this mean that only they can? Hm. I think that needs concrete proof before we make that kind of assumption.



Not one mention of them in older sources. Not one in KOTOR, or TOTJ, or anything. Are you making the unsupported assertion that they did have the ability to locate and record midi-chlorians? Including the Sith? No, this doesn't make any sense.



This is unsupported as well. You've basically said we cannot ever know the intentions of the Force, yet earlier you're claiming that Anakin is the Chosen One of a defined and well known prophecy that came true, and that his descendants became "conduits" of the Force itself. It would seem to me that the Force CAN be understood by your own words and arguments, and apparently it only becomes mysterious when it calls your observations into question.

And please answer my questions directly next time: How does the prophecy support Anakin > all in raw force potential?

In the novelization it's cut clear: Dooku doesn't hold back. And if Obi-wan could have defeated Vader, he would have.

Now, we KNOW the SKywalkers have become living conduits of the Force, drawing power from every thing in the galaxy, we know Jacen became an avatar of the Force and Anakin. Would Lucas count as proof? He's confirmed everything on the OT DVDs

The Prophecy doesn't support Anakin>All in Raw potential. Story evidence and Lucas on the other hand, do. Commentaries and NEC, along with Rogue Planet and some other books as sources

In the novelization it's cut clear: Dooku doesn't hold back. And if Obi-wan could have defeated Vader, he would have.

Now, we KNOW the SKywalkers have become living conduits of the Force, drawing power from every thing in the galaxy, we know Jacen became an avatar of the Force and Anakin. Would Lucas count as proof? He's confirmed everything on the OT DVDs. How many other families were actually given birth by the Force with an ancestor who was almost a manifestation of himself? According to the Journal of the Whills and all...It was unprecedented, in the entire history of the Order...and I don't see the force giving a boost to the Sith, which the Chosen One was created to destroy.

The Prophecy doesn't support Anakin>All in Raw potential. Story evidence and Lucas on the other hand, do. Commentaries and NEC, along with Rogue Planet and some other books as sources. We've seen the Skywalkers do things most people couldn't dream of.

It is clear that Zett is a match for TESB Luke.

Before Luke goes to Yoda, yeah. But after Luke trains with Yoda, Luke would win.

Originally posted by mace=badass
Before Luke goes to Yoda, yeah. But after Luke trains with Yoda, Luke would win.

Either way, the eventual winner will win with difficulty.

Originally posted by Lightsnake In the novelization it's cut clear: Dooku doesn't hold back. And if Obi-wan could have defeated Vader, he would have.

Is this the same novelization that has Kit Fisto's head being put on Palpatine's desk and Obi-Wan dodging hundreds of laser blasts? Yes, it's a load of uncanonical bullshit.



And how will him being the "grandson of the force" help? Luke is still an untrained farmboy.



Erm, there are no records of Midichlorian counts in other eras. So technically, Anakin has the highest Midichlorian count of the PT era.

Zett Jukassa slaps the hell out of Luke "Louisville Slugger" Skywalker. The problem he has it a total lack of decent saber training.

Novelizations, so long as they don't contradict are fully fair game and are right behind the movies.

Traya, I've posted the damn passage that describes Luke becoming a manifestation of light several times now....yes, I'd say being a descendant of the Froce would boost your power quite a bit.

And technically Anakin has the highest midichlorian count ever...that was the whole purpose of that scene and to show he was the first case of it

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Novelizations, so long as they don't contradict are fully fair game and are right behind the movies.

Traya, I've posted the damn passage that describes Luke becoming a manifestation of light several times now....yes, I'd say being a descendant of the Froce would boost your power quite a bit.

And technically Anakin has the highest midichlorian count ever...that was the whole purpose of that scene and to show he was the first case of it

Erm, they do contradict the movies, ergo they are not canon.

There is absolutely no proof of that Lightsnake..

We don't know the counts the ancients had, we don't even know what the poeple after the PT had..

Or before the PT, for that matter.

Those scenes do not cotnradict the movie. Nor do Dooku's thoughts. In levels of canonity, adaptions are just behind the movies.

And there's proof of Midchlorian counts not being before the PT? IF anyone has the TPM DVD and can listen to the commentary...I never bothered to buy it

So, Kit Fisto's head being placed onto a desk doesn't contradict the movies, when his head isn't even removed from his body by Sidious?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Those scenes do not cotnradict the movie. Nor do Dooku's thoughts. In levels of canonity, adaptions are just behind the movies.

And there's proof of Midchlorian counts not being before the PT? IF anyone has the TPM DVD and can listen to the commentary...I never bothered to buy it

The fact that their never mentioned?

That scene obvioously wouldn't count, but Dooku realizing he needs to fight seriously would. It contradicts nothing in the movies and nothing in the movies supports he threw the fight.

And Midichlorian counts never mentioned? So? We already know a lot of things existed thanks to Lucas's lack of foresight

Actually, in the ROTS AC Lucas himself states that Dooku thought he was just fighting Anakin, not testing him for Sidious, so there's no reason that he'd hold back.

If Lucas said it, everything is completely overruled.

Can anybody tell me from what either person take advantage of in the way of terrain? I know that it is in Kuat Drive Yards.

Does it matter? This is Luke "Louisville Slugger" Skywalker. He's going to get pwned by someone who actually knows how to swing their saber, even if it is a preteen.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That scene obvioously wouldn't count, but Dooku realizing he needs to fight seriously would. It contradicts nothing in the movies and nothing in the movies supports he threw the fight.

And Midichlorian counts never mentioned? So? We already know a lot of things existed thanks to Lucas's lack of foresight

Well even if they were able to count it (Which is highly unlikely because absolutely nothing even suggests it) nobody did and we have no way of knowing their count...

Wow

In the novelization it's cut clear: Dooku doesn't hold back. And if Obi-wan could have defeated Vader, he would have.

Now THAT is one Novelization I can dismiss.

It contradicts the Movies, therefore, It is NOT Canon.

It's Funny... The obvious nature of Dooku trying to lure Anakin to unleash his Dark sided Energies obviously doesn't apply to you. In AOTC his demeanor was different with Anakin. He chopped his Arm off and degraded his skills perpetually until Yoda busted in.

All of the sudden... They are on a ship, Dooku isolates Anakin and starts preaching to him about the Dark Side? Okay then.


And Judging by that bullshit Logic you've used before, Since Dooku can defeat Kenobi and Kenobi defeated Anakin then Dooku could crush Anakin.

As he did in AOTC. It's only three years difference, Anakin can't have improved THAT much...

Originally posted by Captain REX
As he did in AOTC. It's only three years difference, Anakin can't have improved THAT much...

He didn't prove in that Movie that he improved much either.

But at one time, Kenobi was crushed under a catwalk and Anakin had to fight Dooku on his own, until he ultimately defeated him.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
But at one time, Kenobi was crushed under a catwalk and Anakin had to fight Dooku on his own, until he ultimately defeated him.

^ That was pure crap.

Let me just throw my 2 cents in:

a) Luke is 19 years old in ANH. ROTS is 19 BBY, ANH is the year 0 (Battle of Yavin).

b) Arguing Luke's force potential is quite useless. When he is in his mid 40s (the NJO series) he's far above anybody else we have seen with the exception of some Sith Lords who were centuries old (e.g. Ragnos) but he's beyond every Jedi. And seen that Anakin's force potential is "above Yoda's" and "out of the scale" (and we don't get to know how much he is above Yoda), I personally accept the suggestion that he is the guy with the most potential in the entire EU universe with the exception of Anakin himself.

c) This, however, doesn't matter. We have seen that superior force potential is not a guarantee for winning a battle. Obi-Wan was nearly not chosen as a padawan but still he was able to defeat Anakin in ROTS because he had 20 years more training under his belt. So Luke, as he is in ESB, had virtually no training with the exception of the few weeks (at best) training with Yoda and Yoda had no lightsaber at that point meaning that he couldn't spare with Luke.

d) Even after the training with Yoda, Luke preferres his blaster over his lightsaber and don't even try to tell me he was a match for Vader. First both Obi-Wan and Yoda tell him he's not ready to go and face Vader at that point. Than Vader pretty much tools him by throwing objects at him (and Luke can't protect himself against it) and then - after Luke hit him once - he just swings his saber and Luke is disarmed and has lost a hand. You call that being equal to Vader ?

e) Now Zett somehow escaped from the temple that was invaded by an entire legion of clone troopers (several thousands) and Anakin (Darth Vader). Then he just does some nice surprise attack on some clones (notice: Clones of Jango Fett with the same reflexes and fighting skills) and killed 5 or six of them before getting shot. Luke in the end of ESB couldn't rescue Leia and Chewie that were guarded by 4 Stormtroopers.

So even if you want to suggest that Luke has the higher force potential, Zett has clearly years more training than Luke which includes lessons by Yoda (as he teaches all Younglings) and Cin Drallig (and Zett was mentioned to be one of Cin's best students). I don't see ESB Luke taking him...

Well said.

Is this a fact?

He does? Why do you say that? And even if ture, Quinlan uses both equally and you can't say he'd lose to Zett.

Okay, first off I think we can safely assume that Zett did not have to challenge Vader, as Vader was off killing Cin, Serra and Shaak. Second, for all we know Zett was only a few feet away from where we saw him in the film when the attack came or was fighting alongside some other Jedi Masters. We can't just assume that he was in the heart of the temple and single handedly almost escaped.

Can someone get a count on how many there were and how many he killed?

Cause if he shot them he might miss and hit Chewie or Leia. There were also some Imperial Officers as well as Lando, who, for all Luke new, was as much against him as Vader. And I'm sure if the trap hadn't caught him he'd have eventually ended up killing the Troopers.

Where?

And in marches the Luke fanboy.

And in walks the Darth Maul Fanboy.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
And in marches the Luke fanboy.
Me? Not even close. puke

Originally posted by IKC
Does it matter? This is Luke "Louisville Slugger" Skywalker. He's going to get pwned by someone who actually knows how to swing their saber, even if it is a preteen.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Is this a fact?

As far as we see in the film he had lost his lightsaber, directly after this he is transferred to Dagobah and he has beaten a Dark Jedi there without using a lightsaber. So he didn't have any lightsaber when he was on Dagobah.



Because he doesn't even bother to take his lightsaber in hand when he reaches Bespin. Instead you can see him running around with his blaster until the point when he meets Vader. That indicates that he preferred the blaster over his lightsaber - otherwise you would see him running around with his lightsaber.



What ? Obviously the Clone Troopers that invaded the temple marched through the temple to get to the landing platform on which Zett is killed later. Basically the entirety of the temple is a single battlefield. And now you're trying to tell me that Zett was basically standing "a few feet away" from the landing platform, waited until the Clone Troopers have marched through the temple, killing the other Jedi and have reached the landing platform and then he tried to escape instead just trying to get away when he realizes the temple is getting attacked ? Yeah...right...



Does that matter ? How many Stromtroopers did Luke kill using a ligthsaber from ANH to the end of ESB. Allright: NONE.



Can you please tell me why he didn't switch his saber on and attack them ? That "precise weapon of a Jedi" ? Or are you going to tell me that he could have "accidentally" slaughtered Chewie and Leia ? And what...somebody who can't shoot straight and still hasn't learned how to handle a lightsaber will defeat Zett in lightsaber combat who has - according to the sw.com Databank shown "an acrobatic display of lightsaber prowess" when killing those stormtroopers. This compared to a person who swung the lightsaber like a baseball bat even 6 months later.

Okay.

1. If he ignited his lightsaber, the noise would attract attention. Simply drawing a blaster is much more strealthy.
2. Regardless of #1 we see that he's intellegent enough to use a lightsaber when facing another lightsaber wielding opponent.

That's true.

I said for all we know. And who's to say that all the Jedi knew as soon as the attack started? As far as I remember, Shaak Ti was sitting in her room meditation and was stabbed in the back.

I actually havn't read Splinter of the Mind's Eye, so idk.

He was making his way towards him. What'd you expect him to do, rush at them immediately? Leia was screaming at him the moment they saw him "Luke don't! Don't! It's a trap! It's a trap!"


And Luke may have not done well against Vader, but Zett would never have even gotten close to hitting his arm.

Originally posted by darthsith19
1. If he ignited his lightsaber, the noise would attract attention. Simply drawing a blaster is much more strealthy.
2. Regardless of #1 we see that he's intellegent enough to use a lightsaber when facing another lightsaber wielding opponent.


Attention when he had the stormtroopers already shooting at him and they already know where he was ? And the other lightsaber wielding opponent pwned him.



Yeah. They won't realize massive blaster fire and they won't feel how all the Jedi are getting killed. The same Shaak Ti that was killed on the invisible hand by Grievous ? "The many deaths of Shaak Ti - Part X" ?



Yeah. I expect a Jedi able to handle a lightsaber go and fight 4 stormtroopers when there is - at that point - no possibility of a trap since he's running to a corridor following his friends.



Proof ? Zett jumped an entire squad of clone troopers and killed some of them and then proceeded to deflect blaster fire from at least 3 people shooting at him before he finally get killed. He still has more training with both: the force and a lightsaber. And if nobody else would come close to wound Vader than only because Vader wouldn't hold back against anybody else.

All right, there's five Clones facing Bail that Zett sneaks up on. There's four Clones on near the beginning/middle of the bridge that leads to where Bail is. Back at the Temple entrance is two somethings, can't tell what, one on each side (they look like Snow Troopers but there wouldn't be Snowtroopers there). He kills four before they can even react. He slashed down two more. Then there's 6 Clones shooting at him. He blocks a total of six laser bolts. Six Clones remain when he dies, so even if those other two standing by the Temple were Clones another one either came from somewhere else extremely fast of one of the ones he hit survived.


From the ESB script: Luke rushes to a side hallway, but by the time he reaches it, Fett, Han, and the guards are gone. A think metal door blocks the passage. Luke turns to see Leia, Chewie, Threepio, and Lando being herded down a second hallway by several other stormtroopers. Leia turns just in time to see Luke. LEIA: Luke! Luke, don't - it's a trap! It's a trap!
Before she can finish, she is pulled through a doorway and disappears from sight. Luke races after the group, leaving little Artoo trailing behind.

When was he gonna kill the Troopers?

Luke runs into an anteroom and stops to get his bearings. Leia and the others are nowhere to be seen. Behind Luke, Artoo scoots down the corridor toward the anteroom when suddenly a giant metal door comes slamming down, cutting off Luke's exit. Several more doors clang shut, echoing through the chamber.

He was on his way but was being cautious due to Leia's warning.

He already had his blaster out at that point.

She wasn't - that scene was cut. We know it didn't happen because later in the film she'd seen in the Council Room.

He was on his way, but, intelligently, he stopped and started being cautious due to Liea's warning.

He would if he knew Sidious wanted that particular Jedi alive. As for Zett hitting Vader, that's riducuous. Even in the suit Vader has killed Jedi Masters. What's a Youngling gonna do?

He already had his blaster out at that point.

So Yoda in the same situation would have just stuck with the blaster as opposed to using his lightsaber which was right on his belt?

She wasn't - that scene was cut. We know it didn't happen because later in the film she'd seen in the Council Room.

Um...that scene was part of the DVD, and If Anakin killed Shaak Ti while she was meditating, why wasn't that included in the scene while the Grievous stabbing scene was? She was seen in the council room? Where?

From the ESB script: Luke rushes to a side hallway, but by the time he reaches it, Fett, Han, and the guards are gone. A think metal door blocks the passage. Luke turns to see Leia, Chewie, Threepio, and Lando being herded down a second hallway by several other stormtroopers. Leia turns just in time to see Luke. LEIA: Luke! Luke, don't - it's a trap! It's a trap!

Luke runs into an anteroom and stops to get his bearings. Leia and the others are nowhere to be seen. Behind Luke, Artoo scoots down the corridor toward the anteroom when suddenly a giant metal door comes slamming down, cutting off Luke's exit. Several more doors clang shut, echoing through the chamber.

Lightsaber can cut through doors you know. Qui-Gon demonstrated so in TPM.

He was on his way, but, intelligently, he stopped and started being cautious due to Liea's warning.

See above. His lightsaber could have easily cut through the door, I'm sure if he were at least on Qui-Gon's skill, he would have cut through the door and continued the pursuit. Stormtroopers can hardly fire straight. If Luke was as good as you deem him to be, they shouldn't be any threat to him at all.

He would if he knew Sidious wanted that particular Jedi alive. As for Zett hitting Vader, that's riducuous. Even in the suit Vader has killed Jedi Masters. What's a Youngling gonna do?

Well, Vader has killed Jedi Masters, what's a farmboy with a week of training gonna do?

Originally posted by DarkNemesis
So Yoda in the same situation would have just stuck with the blaster as opposed to using his lightsaber which was right on his belt?

I think Yoda would have just thrown them against the wall like he did in ROTS. No need to waste saber energy.

That's ANH Luke, not TESB Luke though. It really doesn't matter how good he was then.

Originally posted by DarkNemesis
Lightsaber can cut through doors you know. Qui-Gon demonstrated so in TPM.

See above. His lightsaber could have easily cut through the door, I'm sure if he were at least on Qui-Gon's skill, he would have cut through the door and continued the pursuit. Stormtroopers can hardly fire straight. If Luke was as good as you deem him to be, they shouldn't be any threat to him at all.

What does him possibly being weaker then Qui-gon have to do with him being able to defeat Zett. Unless you think Zett would take Qui-gon...

Originally posted by DarkNemesis
Well, Vader has killed Jedi Masters, what's a farmboy with a week of training gonna do?

More then a weak youngling. Why do you complain about Luke getting as strong as he did so fast, but you turn a blind eye to Nomi Sunrider. She has less experince then Luke, but she took that Krath girl who had several years of training. She also knew how to stip Ulic's power. Why dousn't that bring you to the uproar it does whenever Luke is mentioned?

I think Yoda would have just thrown them against the wall like he did in ROTS. No need to waste saber energy.

My point was that Luke preferred his blaster over his lightsaber, which is clearly not a trait of a Jedi. Zett was able to fight off clonetroopers, I'm sure he would have made a better effort to save them, surely not with a blaster!

What does him possibly being weaker then Qui-gon have to do with him being able to defeat Zett. Unless you think Zett would take Qui-gon...

I wasn't saying that Zett would take Qui-Gon, merely saying that Qui-Gon DEMONSTRATED that lightsabers CAN cut through doors, but Luke DIDN'T do so to go after Leia and Chewie. Why not? Because if he did, I'm sure a few stormtroopers wouldn't be any threat to him.

More then a weak youngling.

For a kid his age, he actually impressed me more than ESB Luke did. Clonetroopers can unleash quite a bit of whoop-ass, and yet he managed to fight off four of five. I didn't see Luke even attempt to fight off any stormtroopers when he could have.

Why do you complain about Luke getting as strong as he did so fast, but you turn a blind eye to Nomi Sunrider. She has less experince then Luke, but she took that Krath girl who had several years of training. She also knew how to stip Ulic's power. Why dousn't that bring you to the uproar it does whenever Luke is mentioned?

Luke was pretty good, considering the cards he was dealt (such little experience and training), but come on, usually it takes decades to become even a fully trained apprentice. And where can I get more information on Nomi Sunrider? Cause this is the first time I have ever heard of her.

Perhaps because Nomi lived around the order and had a Jedi husband?

No, he'd have used the Force. He doesn't have a blaster, Luke wasn't strong enough with the Force yet to make it more efficient in a fight than his blaster.

That happened in a deleted scene. Because she was in the film later on we know she didn't die then. Look at the scenes with the Council in them. She's there.

Luke turns to see Leia, Chewie, Threepio, and Lando being herded down a second hallway by several other stormtroopers.

What are you talking about? he chose not to go through the door but to follow Leia. And that's the script, if I remember correctly the door was edited out of the film.

It's been three years. And, as I hope you saw, he cut his arm and kicked him.

Ah! Glentract has arrived!

Cause it was more stealthy to pull out a blaster than to activate a lightsaber. Lightsabers attract annention with their light and noise.

Me too. For his age. But for the amount of training he's had compared to how much traning Luke's had Luke's skills are far more impressive.

I think Yoda would have just thrown them against the wall like he did in ROTS. No need to waste saber energy.

Originally posted by DarkNemesis
My point was that Luke preferred his blaster over his lightsaber, which is clearly not a trait of a Jedi. Zett was able to fight off clonetroopers, I'm sure he would have made a better effort to save them, surely not with a blaster!

It just shows what weapon Luke felt more comfortable with. Naga Sadow wasn't comfortable with a lightsaber, but that doesn't mean he couldn't pwn 99% of the people in the SW universe. It's just the way that he grew up and doesn't mean he is weak with his lightsaber.

What does him possibly being weaker then Qui-gon have to do with him being able to defeat Zett. Unless you think Zett would take Qui-gon...

Originally posted by DarkNemesis
I wasn't saying that Zett would take Qui-Gon, merely saying that Qui-Gon DEMONSTRATED that lightsabers CAN cut through doors, but Luke DIDN'T do so to go after Leia and Chewie. Why not? Because if he did, I'm sure a few stormtroopers wouldn't be any threat to him.

Luke probably didn't know. In anycase, it doesn't represente his duelling ability(does duelling have one or two 'l'?).

More then a weak youngling.

Originally posted by DarkNemesis
For a kid his age, he actually impressed me more than ESB Luke did. Clonetroopers can unleash quite a bit of whoop-ass, and yet he managed to fight off four of five. I didn't see Luke even attempt to fight off any stormtroopers when he could have.

He stood there and shot at them in ESB for a few seconds, killing one or two of them even as Han and Leia were telling him to run.

How does killing 4 or 5 Stormtroopers impress you more then him getting a hit on Vader? Vader could have pwned 5 times the number of Clones Zett did. Vader has killed at least 2 Jedi Masters, one of whom was a powerful Jedi and Mace's apprentice (but not a Vapaad user). Vader also killed 7 Jedi at the same time while in his suit, and Luke still held his own against him for about 3 or 4 minutes. All that in his suit.

Why do you complain about Luke getting as strong as he did so fast, but you turn a blind eye to Nomi Sunrider. She has less experince then Luke, but she took that Krath girl who had several years of training. She also knew how to stip Ulic's power. Why dousn't that bring you to the uproar it does whenever Luke is mentioned?

Originally posted by DarkNemesis
Luke was pretty good, considering the cards he was dealt (such little experience and training), but come on, usually it takes decades to become even a fully trained apprentice. And where can I get more information on Nomi Sunrider? Cause this is the first time I have ever heard of her.

Really? Here's a quick bio:

On a mission to bring Adegan crystals to Master Thon of Ambria, Andur was confronted by agents of Bogga the Hutt, who demanded he hand over the crystals. When he refused, one of the agents sicced his pet (a poisonous lizard-like creature called a gorm-worm) onto Andur, killing him instantly. When his spirit spoke to his wife, she took up his lightsaber and slew most of his attackers. After this, Nomi vowed to never to use a lightsaber again, much like how Jedi Master Ikrit did in a similar situation, thousands of years later. This vow couldn't last long however, when she realized that a lightsaber was a needed and important weapon, but still maintained the belief that a lightsaber was to be used as little as possible. Bogga sent his men to follow her and take the crystals but they were unsuccessful.

Despite her original wishes, she accepted her destiny as a Jedi and was trained by Master Thon. As a Jedi, she met and fell in love with another Jedi named Ulic Qel-Droma and was with him for some time. When Ulic defected to the Sith (apprenticed to Exar Kun), he killed his brother Cay. In retaliation, Nomi severed his connection with The Force and was convinced that his love for her was severed. He ended up turning on Kun and helping the Jedi defeat him and win the Great Sith War. During the course of this terrible conflict, Nomi met and became good friends with fellow Jedi Knight Jolee Bindo and his wife Nayama, experiencing a number of battles together. In later years, Jolee would fondly recall his friendship with Nomi.

In the years following the end of the Sith War, Nomi lived on Coruscant, where she held the title of 'councilor.' She became a well-known Jedi Knight, becoming a spokesperson and de facto leader of them while becoming embroiled in Republic politics on the capital.

As her daughter Vima grew, she became somewhat rebellious and impatient. When she ran away to find Ulic to train her as a Jedi, her mother searched and found her. Although the meeting between her and her ex-lover was rather awkward, Nomi realized, after discovering the statues Ulic had carved, that he was finally beginning to find peace. Ulic, having trained Vima in the Jedi ways, was shot in the back and died in Nomi's arms. After this, Nomi concentrated on training her daughter.

Her final fate is, as of now, unknown. She was a great Jedi Master of her age, and through daughter Vima she was a multiple-great-grandmother of Vima Da-Boda.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It just shows what weapon Luke felt more comfortable with. Naga Sadow wasn't comfortable with a lightsaber, but that doesn't mean he couldn't pwn 99% of the people in the SW universe. It's just the way that he grew up and doesn't mean he is weak with his lightsaber.


Can you please tell me how Naga Sadow would be able to fight with a lightsaber if he didn't practice with the weapon considering there is a huge difference between a sword and a lightsaber which "blade" has no weight ? If Luke had enough confidence in his lightsaber skills he would have pulled out his lightsaber instead of his blaster. Yet, he didn't.



The entire point is that Vader didn't gave Luke all he had for the entire fight. He was giving comments on Luke's movements ("Impressive ! Obi-Wan did teach you more than I thought...", then he pwns him with throwing stuff at him - Vader doesn't move and still Luke gets pwned and then - in the second Luke hits Vader - Vader loses control for a single moment and Luke hand is gone. Vader dominated the entire fight and the only reason why Luke survived it was that Vader wanted to turn Luke to the Dark Side. So how is this a measure for Luke's duelling abilities ?

Nai, you're back! Now we have a two-on-two going on!

Originally posted by Borbarad
Can you please tell me how Naga Sadow would be able to fight with a lightsaber if he didn't practice with the weapon considering there is a huge difference between a sword and a lightsaber which "blade" has no weight ? If Luke had enough confidence in his lightsaber skills he would have pulled out his lightsaber instead of his blaster. Yet, he didn't.

That was what I said. He was more confident with his blaster, and it was the better choice for much of the time sense they were fighting from father away. Luke probably would have pulled out his lightsaber if they had entered melee combat.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The entire point is that Vader didn't gave Luke all he had for the entire fight. He was giving comments on Luke's movements ("Impressive ! Obi-Wan did teach you more than I thought...", then he pwns him with throwing stuff at him - Vader doesn't move and still Luke gets pwned and then - in the second Luke hits Vader - Vader loses control for a single moment and Luke hand is gone. Vader dominated the entire fight and the only reason why Luke survived it was that Vader wanted to turn Luke to the Dark Side. So how is this a measure for Luke's duelling abilities ?

If he had been two week, Vader would have just killed him, as he would be unworthy to be a Sith. Do you think Vader 'let' Luke get that hit on him?

That was what I said. He was more confident with his blaster, and it was the better choice for much of the time sense they were fighting from father away. Luke probably would have pulled out his lightsaber if they had entered melee combat.

Lightsaber can repel blasterfire you know. Which is why Jedi Master don't carry blasters around because lightsabers can do the trick too.

If he had been two week, Vader would have just killed him

Vader wanted Luke because of his amazing potential, not his skills as of then. If they turned him at that time, and complete his training with the dark side, think about how powerful of a sith Luke would have become.

Do you think Vader 'let' Luke get that hit on him?

He didn't let him, but he wasn't trying to kill Luke either. I didn't see Luke get a hit on Vader when Vader got pissed and really started hacking at him. As a matter of fact, I saw Luke's hand fly away in a matter of seconds.

ok... luke has almost no lightsaber skills at this point... and zett has trained for most of his short life... I'm going to vote for zett on this one...

btw, Glentract, when you reply to my posts, mind leaving out all the boldened text from before? Because it just makes it more confusing for me.

This is Luke "Babe Ruth" Skywalker. Zett Jukassa, as shown in ROTS, actually knows how to use his lightsaber. Luke. Will. Get. Owned.

Concurred.

http://www.starwars.com/episode-iii/explore/sithsnap/2005/08/img/ep3_ia_55948.jpg

No kid that ugly can possibly win.

lol.

We've gone over this. One more time: Stealth.

Same reason we saw the other delet
ed scenes that we saw. To pleae us and to get GL $.

By catching them, by surprise. But if your really gonna be persistant, what do you think Zett would do had he been in Luke's position? Charged Boba fett and got WTF PWND?

I'll check.

I know. But the fact still remains that Luke got a hit on Vader, something I doubt ROTS Zett could EVER do.

You really do need to watch the film again, don't you? Boba's the first to shoot at Luke. Luke pulls out his blaster before anyone sees him.



I think one. Dueling. You could use spell chec, too, you know.

What? Depa or someone else?

When? Where? Who?

But even so, he wasn't trying to get hit and Luke did break his defenses, which is impressive, even if Vader wasn't going all-out.

Also note that Zett uses a lightsaber and that Luke also definately preferred his lightsaber in a duel, which would be the case with Zett. The blaster actually has nothing to do with Zett vs. Luke.

You do know that Lucas reads these forums, right?

Is that supposed to scare us?

Originally posted by DE Calvin
Is that supposed to scare us?
Notice the wink.

That kid is UGLY...YEAH, I SAID IT..WHAT, WHAT?

Originally posted by DE Calvin
That kid is UGLY...YEAH, I SAID IT..WHAT, WHAT?
dontgetit

Was Zett sent on missions in which he had to fight?

We've gone over this. One more time: Stealth.

Stealth? So are you saying then even on stealth missions, all the best Jedi Masters carry blasters with them?

Same reason we saw the other delet
ed scenes that we saw. To pleae us and to get GL $.

Can you specifically tell me which scene thoughh? Because I can't seem to find her.

BTW, this is Zett vs. ESB Luke, why are we arguing over Shaak Ti's death, since it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread? lol.

By catching them, by surprise. But if your really gonna be persistant, what do you think Zett would do had he been in Luke's position? Charged Boba fett and got WTF PWND?

True, Zett would get pwned by Boba, but are you saying that Luke as of ESB can defeat Boba, the son of whom Mace deemed to be the most dangerous man in the galaxy?

I'll check.

So will I.

I know. But the fact still remains that Luke got a hit on Vader, something I doubt ROTS Zett could EVER do.

The fact also remains, that Vader was being extremely easily and need I say, a little CARELESS, which was why Luke got a hit on him. I didn't see Luke get a hit on Vader when Vader got pissed. As a matter of fact, I saw Luke's hand fly off in seconds. And Zett being able to at least hit Vader when Vader is hardly even trying to defend himself, why not? Zett was moving pretty damn fast, and he certainly wasn't too much of a slouch.

You really do need to watch the film again, don't you? Boba's the first to shoot at Luke. Luke pulls out his blaster before anyone sees him.

Boba was in that scene? My bad, never saw him. You're right, I DO need to rewatch that film lol. And I have alreadly said, I didn't see any Jedi carry blasters around with them during stealth missions. Why would a Jedi need a blaster if a lightsabers can do the trick?

But even so, he wasn't trying to get hit and Luke did break his defenses, which is impressive, even if Vader wasn't going all-out.

See above, I will admit that Vader got a little TOO careless, and when he really got into Luke's grill, Luke got WTFpwned.

Also note that Zett uses a lightsaber and that Luke also definately preferred his lightsaber in a duel, which would be the case with Zett. The blaster actually has nothing to do with Zett vs. Luke.

But Luke using a blaster over his lightsaber at other times shows that he IS more comfortable with his blaster (except against aother lightsaber-wielding opponents, because a blaster would be moot).

For the last time: They are storng enough with the Force to use it as their blaster.

I'll look.

Well, Sorgo brought it up...

No, only that Luke made it to Vader fair and square, without using his lightsaber, as you kindly continue to point out, yet we both agree that Zett would have been foolish enough to charge Boba when Boba shot at him and then get pwnd, something Luke had enough common sense not to do.

Um, Vader was trying to defend himself. The only thing he wasn't trying to do was kill Luke. Luke broke his defense. Maybe you think Zett coul do the same, but I sure don't.

Luke walks into Clopud City. He sees Boba and a few stormtroopers, but they don't see him. Now, he could ignite his lightsaber so they would see him or silently pull out his blaster. So he choses the blaster. Boba shoots at him cause R2 whistles, acidentally revealing their presence. Then Luke keeps his blaster out cause it's already out. And when he sees Vader he takes out his saber right away.

Well I smell a PWN3D.

Are you out of your mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Zett wouldnt last ten seconds!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Prove it.


This thread brings back memories. What ever happened to calvs? And that Janick guy? And darthsith?

lawl: Dark Nemesis!

*GASP*

RN, you copycat !!

I knew he had some dark, shameful secret! But I wasn't prepared for this.... *shakes in corner*

Originally posted by Asajj Ventress
Are you out of your mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Zett wouldnt last ten seconds!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't resurrect dead threads.

I agree with those that say Luke wins.

Luke would destroy I think.