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Ulic in his prime, Malak as of KOTOR I, and Sidious in ROTS.

Who wins?

I don't see Malak and Sidious meshing very well, really.

Should I give them a week to get to know each other better or something? Or should I replace one of them with a better teammate?

I dunno. Just let it go. People will fight over it anyhow. You could have Elmo and Yosemite Sam versus Ulic and there's be controversy.

I don't see many people meshing well together but since this is a star wars forum, how is Ulic going to contend with both of them at the same time, in a saber duel, much less force abilities.

The Sith win.

Probably the duo win, if they get along okay.

That's the point of these versus threads, that there is some collusion between a duo or trio, otherwise there's no point in doing that.

Malak in his prime would be Malak with all of the power of the star forge right? In that case Malak takes him out on his own.

Originally posted by hord06
Malak in his prime would be Malak with all of the power of the star forge right? In that case Malak takes him out on his own.


Malak being powered by the star forge is an unfounded assumption. Ulic was indeed a lightsaber prodigy and stalemated Kun, whether Kun was at his best or not. That alone puts him above Malak.

Unfounded assumption? He was DEFINITELY being powered by the star forge.

Prove it? How was he DEFINITELY being powered by the star forge? At his very best he can not defeat Ulic in a saber battle.

Dude have you played KOTOR? If you are too dumb to understand that Malak was using the power of the star forge from the game itself, you clearly are unable to understand logic and proving it would be a waste of my time.

Where does logic play into non canon gameplay? Where does it specifically state/show that Malak WAS indeed being powered by the star forge? Although it MAY be a logical assumption, all it is is an assumption. And I said either way, Malak at his best would not be able to defeat Ulic in a saber battle.. Perhaps a force battle but definitely not with a saber.

Malak was DEFINITELY using the power of the star forge to revive himself using the bodies of the dead jedi. This is definite as it is confirmed through dialogue. And I was saying that if you are so dumb as to not be able to understand obvious facts, you are clearly lacking in logic and would not understand me if I were to explain it as simply as I can.

Dialogue from whom? A credible source or as IKC calls it, a "fallible 3rd party character"? Hmm? And as I've said regardless if he was or not, at his best he is below Ulic.

Originally posted by tdtd
Prove it? How was he DEFINITELY being powered by the star forge? At his very best he can not defeat Ulic in a saber battle.

I agree with tdtd.

Hord6, you still haven't proved anything. I could say that Malak DEFINATELY WASN'T using the power of the SF to revive himself as it is confirmed through dialogue. Just because I say it doesn't make it true though.

Alright, Malak got a small power boost from the Star Forge. Doesn't change much.

The two Sith win.

The beauty of assumptions.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I agree with tdtd.

Hord6, you still haven't proved anything. I could say that Malak DEFINATELY WASN'T using the power of the SF to revive himself as it is confirmed through dialogue. Just because I say it doesn't make it true though.

The dialogue is canon. Malak states that he was using 'all of the power of the star forge'.

Dialogue isn't canon in a gameplay my friend, only the storyline is.

Yes it is.

Originally posted by tdtd
Dialogue isn't canon in a gameplay my friend, only the storyline is.

I think it actually is.

The dialogue is canon. Malak states that he was using 'all of the power of the star forge'.

When did he say "All of the power of the Star Forge"? I remember it saying the Star Forge boosted his abilities, but it was never specified by how much. You *can't* quantify the boost. And even if he was using "all the power" we don't know how much *all* is.

Ah so in that case Revan was power, and they were all children playing with toys compared to the ancient sith.. I see. Show me where dialogue is canon, where a character is a credible source.

He was still powered by the star forge ocelot.

When you see Malak draining energy from captured Jedi, then stating that he's using all the power of the Star Forge. Kreia is obviously a dubious source, as she's trying to manipulate the Exile, but I doubt that Malak would lie point-blank during the most heated battle of his life. What would that accomplish?

What he said.

So... Malak is allowed to absorb corpses in this battle?

Ok, fair enough I suppose that COULD be a possibility, so now quantify his power with the SF.

Well technically Malak in his prime is in the star forge, so yes.

Since Sidious has force drain as well, it's kinda giving the "Star Forge boost" to his whole team.

Sidious has force drain?

DE Sidious does, not sure if ROTS Sidious does. If he does have it, he didn't use it against Yoda.

I don't remember DE Sidious having force drain in the comics.

My God... you people have turned Star Wars into a college debate course.

That's the idea.

... He drained the life out of a whole planet! (Byss).

OH yea, forgot about that.

This is DE Sidious, or what? Ah, ROTS.

The duo get raped hardcore, especially since Ulic in his prime is as a Sith.

Oh lord, IKC lets be serious here big pimpin. How are they going to get raped? Unless of course you believe Ulic has force abilities above either character, which is far from the truth. Although if it is ROTS Sidious he'd probably die first. Either way the saber battle isn't going to be easy for Ulic at all, but he would lose a force battle.

I like how you automatically assume that Ulic is a Mace Windu-type character (great at saber combat, mediocre at the Force) despite the fact that he's described as being powerful in the Force.

Really, your assertion that he's beneath either of these relative lightweights in a Force battle is an unsupported assumption.

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/4175/unsupportedass6ke.jpg

So is the fact that you would like to assume that he would tool two powerful sith lords.... It goes both ways IKC, at least I can admit that. And what do we see him do with his force abilities? I'm glad he's described as powerful but how powerful, and does anything indicate that he's as powerful in the force as Sidious/Malak?

Turning your flawed logic around on you, I'll ask you what we see Marka Ragnos do with his force abilities.

See the problem?

Ulic's definitely above these two, though he'll take them down in lightsaber combat the quickest.

How is that turning my logic on me? We know Ragnos was the most powerful of the powerful, period. No need to go beyond that. Stating the Ulic was powerful in the force does not automatically mean TOTJ owns all IKC.. You sayng he is above those two is an unproven assumption. I won't argue saber combat because Ulic could possibly take that, but you can't even give me an example of what makes Ulic more powerful than either of those two in the force, besides bias of course.

Originally posted by tdtd
How is that turning my logic on me? We know Ragnos was the most powerful of the powerful, period. No need to go beyond that. Stating the Ulic was powerful in the force does not automatically mean TOTJ owns all IKC.. You sayng he is above those two is an unproven assumption. I won't argue saber combat because Ulic could possibly take that, but you can't even give me an example of what makes Ulic more powerful than either of those two in the force, besides bias of course.

So does that mean he can take two such opponents? If we were to be a strict constructionist, I could say, no, that's not proven.

You can't jump back and forth on your interpretation of canon wherever you see fit.

But I can say that there's no logical way you can quantify Ulic's power from the phrase "powerful force user". We know both Malak and Sidous were powerful force users, and unless Ulic was uber powerful in the force, which there is no support for, he doesn't stand much chance against them in a force fight does he Illustrious?

Originally posted by tdtd
But I can say that there's no logical way you can quantify Ulic's power from the phrase "powerful force user". We know both Malak and Sidous were powerful force users, and unless Ulic was uber powerful in the force, which there is no support for, he doesn't stand much chance against them in a force fight does he Illustrious?

So what you're saying is thus:

I can not quantify Ulic's power, therefore he gets pwned.

WTF? No, you can not quantify means you can not quantify. It does not mean you can make decisions.

Why are you telling me that, tell IKC that. At least i'm trying to offer support for why he wouldn't win, and that would include him not showing anything impressive using the force.

IKC may well be doing the same thing, but at least he is attempting to quantify his abilities. You seemed to have just made a conclusion there from what you claim is nothing.

Where is he attempting to quantify his abilities Illustrious? All I see is "The Duo gets tooled".

That'd be nice if we didn't already know that, in his era, Ulic was second only to Exar Kun in practically every relevant field.

There's also the fact that the spirit of Nadd, taunting Ulic, refers to him as one of the "great ones." Then he references Exar Kun, saying, "And there is another, even greater than you."

Aleema says that she "senses the Force is strong (in Ulic)."

When Satal injected Ulic with Sith poison, Ulic's force-powered response was enough to wreck the torture droid he was strapped into, much of which was made out of stone. It was described by the narrator as, "A massive impulse of Force energy that blasts the young Jedi free of the droid's embrace"

When Ulic blasts his friends back after defeating Satal Keto, it's described by the narrator thusly: "But the process that has begun in Ulic builds to catastrophic levels... unleashing waves of dark side energy in his body and against his friends!" The panel shows Ulic in the center and a visible blast of energy knocking back Cay Qel-Droma and Tott Doneeta.

When Kun is crowned and Ulic named his foremost apprentice, the narrator describes their joined power from Aleema's perspective: "As Aleema regains consciousness, she beholds an astonishing transformation in her lover Ulic... Ulic Qel-Droma and the intruder (Kun) are rippling with Dark-Side energy... more power than all her Sith magic has given her."

Anyway, your assumption that Ulic is mediocre in the Force is unfounded. His skill with the lightsaber over both opponents is great, and at the very least he is equal to both of them in Force combat.

Ulic hasn't shown as much power using the force as these two have, so it would be safe to assume that they are better force users (I believe that is a dulled down version of what tdtd is trying to say), and I agree completely with that. Malak would confront him in melee combat while Sidious uses the force to attack him. I don't think Ulic could take the combined efforts of these two any time soon.

Wonderful.. So you've provided quotes from various people. Explain to me how Aleema's opinion is any different than Kreia's in KOTOR II, and quantify Ulic's force power with that text you just gave me. Where does it say that Ulic was only second to Kun in force mastery? If I recall correctly, Aleema has shown more of a mastery than Ulic. And I'm not underestimating his force abilities I'm sure they're good, but there is nothing that shows that they're better than either Malak, or Sidious, or the combination, and your belief that he is at the very least equal to them in force abilities is an unsupported, and ridiculous assumption.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Ulic hasn't shown as much power using the force as these two have, so it would be safe to assume that they are better force users (I believe that is a dulled down version of what tdtd is trying to say), and I agree completely with that. Malak would confront him in melee combat while Sidious uses the force to attack him. I don't think Ulic could take the combined efforts of these two any time soon.

Sidious may have been a closet politician Sith Lord, but he managed to match Yoda in a force fight. That's nothing short of impressive.

And Marka Ragnos has shown precisely zero power in the Force. I guess that mean he sucks ass then, huh?

And tdtd, how about you read my post where I also provide quotes from the narrator?

Indeed Ulic could not take Malak and Sidious together.

He is broken against the two of them together.

I did, and I asked you to quantify his power in accordance to those quotes. Bottom line is IKC, there is no evidence whatsoever that would show Ulic being superior to either of the duo in the force... And stop using the Ragnos example as it is a terrible one, because we already know he is the most powerful of this most powerful. At least his abilities are definitive..

Adding to what TdTd is saying Marka Ragnos remained unchallenged by Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh combined. This is proof of his power.

Ulic however does not have the benefit of the doubt.

Right, you can't interpret ambiguous quotes such as "he was very strong in the force", sorry IKC.. However when Ragnos is called the most powerful of the most powerful, no interpretation is needed, the quote speaks for itself.

Yeah, I've had enough of this "Yoda was way better than Sidious" crap. They fought, and were equal. Yoda didn't "win any saber locks" or "tool Sidious with his own lightning." They fought, and were equals, only, Sidious ended up not falling like fifty feet. Sorry, that was a bit off topic. I'm not necessarily saying, if Yoda could do it, so could Sidious, but, they were matched, and Sidious could put just as much energy in a force attack as Yoda, so don't underestimate him.

Anyway, when has Ulic shown anything as impressive as throwing around multiple senate pods at a time over and over? When has he ever shown anything as impressive as using lightning to disarm a nine hundred year old Jedi Master who is a senior member on the Jedi council? I'm sure the list goes on. Ulic simply has not shown us as much skill in the force as Sidious has, never mind adding Malak to the equation.

correct

Agreed. To say that Qel Droma could possibly take these two is a ridiculous claim.

And, just so you know, ANH Luke is described as strong with the force. Could he take these guys in a force battle?

ROFL so true man. You hit the nail on the head.

Alright calm down guys give IKC time to respond.

I was referencing the Ragnos point inasmuch as Jollyjim apparently thinks one needs to perform feats to be good in the Force. As Ragnos proves out, such is a fallacious and ignorant argument.

And Sidious was clearly overpowered by Yoda in the final Force battle. Watch his facial expressions, he goes from laughing like a nutjob to pure horror as Yoda pushes forward. He still put up a good showing.

Ok IKC but as you, Illustrious and Janus said, his face expressions mean nothing, because I was trying to make the same argument. He was being overpowered at the end but he proved to be an equal match for Yoda more or less.
And I think Jim's point was my point, you have a bunch of ambiguous quotes, and the Ragnos quote doesn't improve your argument since it was definite.

Originally posted by IKC
I was referencing the Ragnos point inasmuch as Jollyjim apparently thinks one needs to perform feats to be good in the Force. As Ragnos proves out, such is a fallacious and ignorant argument.

And Sidious was clearly overpowered by Yoda in the final Force battle. Watch his facial expressions, he goes from laughing like a nutjob to pure horror as Yoda pushes forward. He still put up a good showing.

So we should just assume that Ulic would win, because he is cool? As tdtd said, Ragnos didn't need to show force power, he was described as the most powerful of the most powerful, what more do you need?

Umm, Sidious was surprised that Yoda could contend with him. He pushed back with his own energy and they both went flying. This was like Anakin and Obi Wan trying to force-push each other. Equal. Did you not see the final outcome?

It was a stalemate but if you do want to get specific, Yoda had Sidious on his heels...

Lets see, in Jedi academy there is proof that Ragnos possessed a scepter that was capable of draining entire planets. Again a feat that supports his great strength.

Sadow and Kressh were afraid of confronting Ragnos one on one. Considering Sadow PWNS DN Luke, there is the evidence to support that Ragnos was near godlike.

Again, Ulic cannot receive the same benefit of the doubt as Ragnos to his force abilities.

I wouldn't say Sadow PWNS DN Luke, he would win more times than not but PWNS is an exaggeration. I shall return in 2 days, after passover is over, to continue this wonderful debate with you guys.

I rather appreciated IKC's post, complete with proof and a good solid stance, which changed my mind on the fight.

The rest of you just argued crap out of your ass, made a bunch of baseless accusations, and let the discussion get way off track over petty details.

Predictable response Janus, except for the fact that I've given a good argument as to why putting Ulic above those two is ridiculous and biased, jollyjim had a good argument, etc.. I don't see any baseless accusations, or getting off track.. All I see is "omgz TOTJ rules everybody who doesn't think so is wrong". I'm still waiting for IKC to quantify Ulic's force power in regards to what is said about him. There is absolutely NOTHING that suggests Ulic is more powerful in the force than either Malak or Sidious, stating otherwise would be an unsupported(and probably biased)assumption.
You're a good guy Janus, and a respected member of this forum, but at least recognize good arguments when you see them, even if it's against TOTJ, and be open to both sides...

Originally posted by tdtd
I wouldn't say Sadow PWNS DN Luke, he would win more times than not but PWNS is an exaggeration. I shall return in 2 days, after passover is over, to continue this wonderful debate with you guys.

Sadow's demonstrated feats are above Luke's by a good margin. He was able to literally overwhelm the forces of three entire planets by the power of his illusions. Someone able to "see the galaxy in his mind's eye" certainly is very powerful.

You can argue anything until you're blue in the face, but if anyone pwns DN Luke, it's an ancient Sith like Sadow.

I know Sadow is above DN Luke, but saying he PWNS him is an exaggeration.,

Of course, but then you'd blow Luke if given the chance, so i'm not surprised.

Originally posted by tdtd
I know Sadow is above DN Luke, but saying he PWNS him is an exaggeration.,

Semantics. The only premise of comparison between the two places Sadow well above Luke. Arguing whether or not his victory would be a "pwn" is simply showing more bias.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Of course, but then you'd blow Luke if given the chance, so i'm not surprised.

Yea I'd blow Luke as often as you verbally fellate Kun. Way to dodge my post.. As far as I'm concerned, anybody can verbally fellate anyone else as long as a good argument is presented. What I see on this forum(and I admit to doing it, which doesn't say much for the majority of this forum), consists of bias and ignorance. Very few of you actually look at both sides as opposed to just saying "My favorite character wins".

Originally posted by Illustrious
Semantics. The only premise of comparison between the two places Sadow well above Luke. Arguing whether or not his victory would be a "pwn" is simply showing more bias.

perhaps

Originally posted by tdtd
Yea I'd blow Luke as often as you verbally fellate Kun.

But the point is I don't. You're the one who runs around arguing DN Luke is teh oober and no one can hold a candle to him and you haven't even read the damn DN books. You argue from ignorance in Luke's favor whenever he shows up. That's fanboyism. I argue in Kun's favor when there's sufficient evidence for it and no other times. That's NOT fanboyism. Get it straight.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
But the point is I don't. You're the one who runs around arguing DN Luke is teh oober and no one can hold a candle to him and you haven't even read the damn DN books. You argue from ignorance in Luke's favor whenever he shows up. That's fanboyism. I argue in Kun's favor when there's sufficient evidence for it and no other times. That's NOT fanboyism. Get it straight.


Yes, I argue that nobody can stop DN Luke, yet when Luke is in a thread with ANcient Sith for instance, I quickly put him down. You ALWAYS argue in Kun's favor, and in anything relating to TOTJ. I'm interested to see you argue against it when the evidence is clear. For instance, start with this thread, especially since I did present a reasonable argument to effectively combat IKC's.

Originally posted by tdtd
Yes, I argue that nobody can stop DN Luke, yet when Luke is in a thread with ANcient Sith for instance, I quickly put him down.

Which is the only exception. And you skirted the fact that you know less about DN Luke than people like Glentract and Faunus and Nai. Hell, even Illustrious knows a good deal about Dn Luke compared to you. So you admit to arguing from ignorance -except- in the case of the ancient sith. This doesn't absolve you of fanboyism, sorry.



I haven't really seen many threads where Kun's been put up against anyone I feel he can't take. Whenever I DO argue in a thread about Kun, it's when you come out of the woodwork like some forum gremlin and start saying unsupported bullshit. Normally, I wouldn't even so much as post.



Where's your reasonable argument? I didn't see one. IKC rips you in pieces in every debate I've ever seen, and it's because he brings the logical arguments, he brings the proof, and you just piss and moan, make logical fallacies, and try and work semantics on canon proof. In short, you only debate insofar as you ***** at IKC's rather sound viewpoints.

Sorry Janus, this argument is clear on my part, you can try to refute it or IKC can add to it, but I've made very good points so if you couldn't comprehend them or accept them that's your problem, I'll be happy to go over them with you again.

That's what he asked you to do. You haven't.

Actually I've provided a very good argument for once, one that you haven't been able to refute, even with your random quotes about how Ulic is strong with the force. By your logic, Anakin>Malak+Sidious because he was "very strong with the force". The fact remains that there's nothing that puts Ulic above EITHER one in force abilities. Saber combat is a different subject.

So wait, your argument consists of making a strawman argument (logical fallacy)?

Learn to properly characterize my argument before attempting.

Here we go with the definitions. I love your "For once tdtd provided an argument I can't refute so I'll just point out his logical fallacies, and while I'm at it correct his grammar, to feel better" Logic. I've provided a good argument so have others.. Way to ignore everybody that doesn't share your opinion IKC. I'm still waiting for you to form an argument that doesn't consist of "TOTJ>all".

So in conclusion you can't quantify Ulic's force abilities regarding quotes, nor is there any significant proof of Ulic's uber force mastery, so there's nothing to even remotely suggest that at the very least he is equal to them combined in force abilities, but thanks for your opinion.
At the same time, we know that Malak and Sidious were at the very least, somewhat powerful force users, so unless you can quantify Ulic's power, or provide proof that Ulic is more powerful than these two combined besides your respectable opinion, there's no point in arguing, just leave it alone.

There you go again with the logical fallacies.

Your argument is nonexistant. You have set up a strawman argument and attack it while at the same time offering no proof of your own to the contrary. I'll post the meaning of strawman argument for you to review:

# Person A has position X.
# Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
# Person B attacks position Y.
# Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

In other words, you aren't even responding to what my argument is. You're wasting time pursuing a fallacy in logic. Get it through your head.

I'll just quote my argument again, see if you can spot what I'm actually trying to say:

Originally posted by IKC
That'd be nice if we didn't already know that, in his era, Ulic was second only to Exar Kun in practically every relevant field.

There's also the fact that the spirit of Nadd, taunting Ulic, refers to him as one of the "great ones." Then he references Exar Kun, saying, "And there is another, even greater than you."

Aleema says that she "senses the Force is strong (in Ulic)."

When Satal injected Ulic with Sith poison, Ulic's force-powered response was enough to wreck the torture droid he was strapped into, much of which was made out of stone. It was described by the narrator as, "A massive impulse of Force energy that blasts the young Jedi free of the droid's embrace"

When Ulic blasts his friends back after defeating Satal Keto, it's described by the narrator thusly: "But the process that has begun in Ulic builds to catastrophic levels... unleashing waves of dark side energy in his body and against his friends!" The panel shows Ulic in the center and a visible blast of energy knocking back Cay Qel-Droma and Tott Doneeta.

When Kun is crowned and Ulic named his foremost apprentice, the narrator describes their joined power from Aleema's perspective: "As Aleema regains consciousness, she beholds an astonishing transformation in her lover Ulic... Ulic Qel-Droma and the intruder (Kun) are rippling with Dark-Side energy... more power than all her Sith magic has given her."

Anyway, your assumption that Ulic is mediocre in the Force is unfounded. His skill with the lightsaber over both opponents is great, and at the very least he is equal to both of them in Force combat.

Huh. Looks like I provided concrete examples, too.

You know it's funny how most internet people start correcting others when they're either angry or they've lost an argument, I'll let the others figure out which one you're doing.. But I'll simplify your opinion, or as you call it "argument".

1. Practically every field? Because you would consider that a logical assumption based on the fact that he was Kun's apprentice right? Interesting, so what does that say about his force abilities exactly? Nothing? Moving on.
2. Goodie, Nadd calling him one of the great ones, and this is quantified how? Anakin was "Zee chozen 0ne" so with your infallible logic that speaks volumes for him too right? Didn't think so.
3. Aleema's quote, I can just laugh at that one... See #2 in case you didn't understand it the first time.
4. Again, the poision examples speaks volumes for Ulic maybe, but how does that quantify his power compared to Malak and Sidious?
5. Another nice quote from the narrator... Quantify that power compared to the duo.
6. Great, and Sidious WAS dark side energy, as he was described, what's your point?
Way to go IKC, you've provided a bunch of quotes that are too ambiguous to quantify Ulic's force abilities in regards to his battle with a powerful duo, and you're argument about Ulic at the very least being equal to the duo in the force continues to be an unfounded, yet very carefully thought out assumption.. But I'm sure you'll throw out a definition with your next post....

Oh...we know that ?
Apparently at least Nomi Sunrider is better than Ulic in handling a lightsaber and in terms of force powers. Thon and Ood Bnar would wtfpwn Ulic force wise.



Nice for Ulic but Nadd was referring to Sith only. This is basically: "Hey. You will be a Sith Lord but the other dude will be stronger Sith Lord than you." and nothing more.



Obi-Wan said the same thing about ANH Luke. ANH Luke = Ulic in terms of force powers ?



ROTS Vader in suit destroyed the entire room in which he was in when Sidious told him about Padme's death. Vader > Ulic ?



Nice. "With mounting anguish Luke and Leia watch the Emperor's rage take form, as a great storm of raw energy rends the fabric of space itself". Narrator's description of the force storm. DE Sidious > Ulic ?



You mean Aleema who's Sith knowledge couldn't do anything but creating some (deadly) illusions ? The same Aleema that was effortlessly blocked force wise by Nomi Sunrider and fearfully put herself behind Ulic's back saying that "This woman wants to kill me" after it ? Yeah...I'm really surprised that Ulic is more powerful than that.



He is inferior in terms of force powers compared to DE Sidious. Malak might be inferior to him and I'm pretty sure Ulic could take down both of them in a 1vs1 in a lightsaber battle but I doubt that he can take both at once.

indeed

TDTD are you Deception?

Wtf? If I was deception then I would be arguing with myself all the time wouldn't I?