Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who wins?

Battle takes place on Mt. Olympus

Zeus comes in and crushes them both.

Zeus aka DE Luke aka playgirl playmate of the year.

The ancient Greco-Roman armies come and flood over them both, then feed their corpses to the Germanic tribes invading from the north.

Thank you historian

Then the Norse Gods come and pwn the Greek Gods.

Originally posted by Razielim
Then the Norse Gods come and pwn the Greek Gods.
The Norse Gods aren't as powerful as the Greek Gods...

word

It's hard to quantify power in mythology, since it's so inconsitant. However, in coolness the Norse Gods >>> Greek nudist Gods and their small penises.

How do you know they're small. Been looking at pictures?

Originally posted by Razielim
It's hard to quantify power in mythology, since it's so inconsitant. However, in coolness the Norse Gods >>> Greek nudist Gods and their small penises.
I'm sorry the Greek Titans themselves would pwn the Norse Gods... Oranos would have a heyday.

And Greek Gods are cool.

How do you know they're small. Been looking at pictures?

Pretty much every statue/painting depicts them as nude. It's hard to find ones that don't.

The best Greek Gods are... Zeus, Athena, Poseidon and Artemis. Never really liked the rest.

Zeus has to be the biggest player in mythology. Makes King Priam look like a prude.

Zeus probably holds a record...but Ragnarok is infinitely badass

Originally posted by Razielim
It's hard to quantify power in mythology, since it's so inconsitant. However, in coolness the Norse Gods >>> Greek nudist Gods and their small penises.

Yep.

Anyway, let's talk about the fight... not undersized stone penises. I'm tempted to say Luke. He was one tough cookie!

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Anyway, let's talk about the fight... not undersized stone penises. I'm tempted to say Luke. He was one tough cookie!

Awww... not one of you guys; topic followers

Topic followers aren't cool

Or they just want to get any debating done sooner rather than later so they can get back to their social life...

No, actually I have the day off, just got back from doing some working and I just want to relax.

Luke was described as faster than the human eye and managed to keep up with DE Sidious in saber combat pretty well. As for the force, he has shown us much more than Mace. I'll give this to Luke.

In DE Luke was already beyond all of the PT Jedi

Really: Mace manhandles him.

Really? I think its kinda close.

It would be a good fight, but lightsaber skills are close and Luke has the force. I don't see Mace walking away from this one.

How would Mace manhandle him Faunus? We've seen Luke's superior strength in DE, not to mention his new found grasp of the dark side, I'd say Mace doesn't stand a chance.

I can see Luke winning, but it will be very close.

Luke would beat Windu easily enough by DE...

In terms of Force Power and Strength, yes, but based on purely a lightsaber fight Mace is likely to come out on top, but since this isn't what the thread is about, Luke wins.

I don't think DE Luke would be able to defeat Windu.

Luke gained most of his power after establishing his Academy on Yavin 4 and before that he was quite untrained. Jorus / Joruus who was clearly a PT Jedi not on Mace Windu's level outclassed him one year before DE and Sidious - who was beaten by Mace in a lightsaber duel - managed to disarm Luke in their first lightsaber fight in DE.

Now add that Mace has far more force control compared to Luke and was a lightsaber prodigy on his own. Add some years of actual (lightsaber) battle experience on Mace's side and his unique Shatterpoint ability and Luke would get owned pretty much.

On the side topic of Greek Gods vs Norse Gods:
The Norse Gods would curbstomp the Greek ones. They are far more martial (especially the likes of Thor, Odin and Tyr) and more powerful to an extend that they slaughtered entire armies of giants singlehandly (Thor) and even killed other Gods (Odin). I mean really...it's known that some leaders in Nordic had their ancestors kill them putting spears through them because this was the only way to reach Walhalla. Northern mythology is filled with so much violence that it makes the Greek Gods look like innocent children. Or let me put it like this: Thor is the mythological version of Chuck Norris and Odin is his superior.

Yea but Zeus would beat the stuffing out of Thor.. And back to the topic, you are forgetting that ROTS Sidious is not DE Sidious, in age, in skill, and in power. DE Sidious is on a different level altogether.

Dude, Zeus shot down lightning bolts. He'd electrocute Thor with a gagillion wats of electricity before Thor knew what hit him. On a side note, I plan to name my kids Thor and Tron.

You DO realize that Thor's a thunder god, right?

Oh wow, a thunder god and a lightning god, NOW I know why we have thunderstorms, thanks Janus

Well, I doubt Thor's going to be vapourized by a thunderbolt when he pretty much is the cause of that back home. Plus his glove can absorb shit like you wouldn't believe.

Oh yea, well Zeus is bigger.

Norse gods were apparently giant sized, since they interbred with Jotuns all the time.

And your gods suck. Pfft.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Norse gods were apparently giant sized, since they interbred with Jotuns all the time.


Not to mention that Odin, Ve and Vili killed Ymir / Aurgelmir who was apparently huge enough to provide blood to form the oceans, flesh to form earth and the entire sky was formed out of his scull. That is "giant".

This is true Ymir was huge. What became of the cow, btw? I don't recall where it went.

As I recall, The Incredible Hulk defeated a soldier who was empowered by Oden.

The great serpant... heavier than 9 planets... I think.

Thor lifted it.

And we've seen the Hulk lift 100,000,000,000 tons... Losing to the Hulk isn't something to be ashamed of.

And Marvel Norse Gods =/= mythological Norse Gods.

But keep in mind, Greek Gods were immortal... While Norse Gods were just extremely long-lived super humans.

Was it ever confirmed how Odin and his brothers killed Ymir? Big battle, caught him sleeping, what?

Though, Nai...in the Greek hierarchy, weren't Gods incapable of being killed? The Norse gods, at least, could be killed by other divine figures...unlike the Greeks, the Norse had a big end of the world myth...

Why not bring up the Egyptian Gods while we're at it. I would love to see Odin vs. Anubis.

Anubis was in no way a warrior

No but he was the death God...

Actually, Osiris was the big mack daddy there

All I can say about this talk about gods is what about Jesus? I'd have to say being able to instantly summon more Angels then there is sand on the beaches pretty much outdoes either Thor or Zeus.

On topic:

Luke gained most of his power after establishing his Academy on Yavin 4 and before that he was quite untrained. Jorus / Joruus who was clearly a PT Jedi not on Mace Windu's level outclassed him one year before DE and Sidious - who was beaten by Mace in a lightsaber duel - managed to disarm Luke in their first lightsaber fight in DE.

Keep in mind that Joruus isn't the same guy as the one that was in the PT-era. The Jorus that was inferior to Mace had less then 20 years of training if I remember correctly, yet he was still the Supreme Chancellor's Jedi adviser. I doubt that's a position giving to an average Jedi, especially one who had been a Jedi for such a little time, probably not much more then a decade).

Further proof that Joruus was more powerful then Jorus is the fact that Joruus was able to control tens of thousands of minds at one time. I strongly doubt Mace's force power ever came even near that. I doubt Yoda had force power on that level either. As you might now guess, Luke being weaker then Joruus doesn't mean that he definately isn't as strong as Mace.

I agree that Mace is a better fighter then ROTS Sidious, but remember that ROTS Sidious had only been able to practice the force for short periods of time for that last 13 years and hadn't touched his lightsaber in over a decade as it had been encased in a statue to hide it. Remember how Leia was only able to spend an hour or two per month training to be a Jedi when she was Chief of State. The same was probably true for Palpatine during that 13 year time. By DE, Sidious has an additional 25 years of training, a superior body, and a much greater access to knowledge. As with Joruus, Luke having lost to him at one time doesn't prove him weaker than Mace.

Also note that it was their first lightsaber duel that Luke lost. I'm guessing that this is Luke near or at the end of the DE series, as when we refer to NJO Luke we usually mean in TUF, not the first book in the series. I'm not totally sure, but I remember hearing that Luke later cut off Sidious' hand in lightsaber fight. I think you can guess what the implications of that may be.

Now add that Mace has far more force control compared to Luke and was a lightsaber prodigy on his own. Add some years of actual (lightsaber) battle experience on Mace's side and his unique Shatterpoint ability and Luke would get owned pretty much.

What is your basis for Mace having far more force control then Luke? I believe that Luke was able to permanetly cloak a planet with the force (The Courtship of Princess Leia) by this point, something that I can imagine taking a very large amount of power to do. I doubt we've seen Mace do anything on this level.

Luke also has a large amount of battle experince. The only person Luke has fought lightsaber against lightsaber in real combat is Sidious unless I am forgetting someone. Luke has fought Vader and Sidious. Plus he has fought them on multiple occasions. I'm not saying that Luke has more experince then Mace, but I don't believe that he is outclassed as far as you say.

Mace does have quite an advantage in his shatterpoint ability though. Then again Luke has a big advantage in his physical strength. He defeated a HRD in unarmed combat (Shadows of the Empire) and in ROTJ you can see him overpower Vader in a saber lock. The raw strength in his form would prove dificult to cope with and is a possible counter for Mace's shatterpoint ability.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Actually, Osiris was the big mack daddy there

I thought Ra was in charge.

I meant of the Underworld

bump

Did luke ever maste vaapad, and how do you even pronounce vaapad

I don't think Luke even learned Vaapad

He probably knows about Juyo, but not Vaapad. He's a Djem So user.

I pronounce it "Va - Pad"

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Keep in mind that Joruus isn't the same guy as the one that was in the PT-era. The Jorus that was inferior to Mace had less then 20 years of training if I remember correctly, yet he was still the Supreme Chancellor's Jedi adviser. I doubt that's a position giving to an average Jedi, especially one who had been a Jedi for such a little time, probably not much more then a decade).

What ? He was Sidious personal advisior when Sidious was a Senator meaning until 32 BBY at max. And since he was born in 70 BBY he most likely took that position when he was more than 30 years old. And obviously he wasn't part of the Jedi Council so he isn't that special...
Also notice that the main contact of the Jedi Council to the Supreme Chancelor was Mace himself, not Jorus.



You simply ignore the effects of Dark Side use. Sidious was able to keep an entire planet population (Byss) under control and this is the guy who Dooku thought would get destroyed by a Dark Side Yoda.



Did you watch ESB ? :P



He did cut off Sidious hand in a lightsaber fight but he had help from Leia at this point (probably using a basic version of battle meditation). And Luke in the first NJO book still had 15 years of training advantage compared to his DE self, not even mentioning his actual combat experience (fights against former students, the Calista trilogy, the Black Fleet crisis) and his additional knowledge gaining.



The simple fact that Mace had 5 times the training time and a more formal training compared to Luke, not even talking about far more battle experience when it came to the "jedi way" of fighting (force use, lightsaber combat).



First Luke did that after the DE comics (Black Fleet trilogy - 16 ABY) and he manipulated the force directly creating a sort of "loop" in it. The amount of actual force energy needed to do that is unknown since it's based on an entire different philosophy of force used compare to the one the Jedi have.



He did fight Vader two times (three if you include SotME) and Sidious two times. Then you have him facing Luuke, Joruus and Mara Jade and that is what with lightsaber combat / confronting force users (in the time of DE).
Mace confronted Dooku, Grievous, Depa, Kar Vastor, Quinlan Vos, 3 of Dooku's Dark Acolytes and Sidious. Not to mention that he used to duel with Yoda and Dooku as both have bested him.



Yes...I'm perfectly sure that Luke has a superior strength compared to the guy who could compete with Kar Vastor in unarmed combat, hammered through durasteel battle droids with his bare hands and was trained in melee combat (armed and unarmed) for his entire life. I really doubt it.

Good post

One thing: Leia provided zero support or help whatsoever during the duel with Sidious. Luke had the edge because he fought harder realizing if he died, Sidious would gain possession of Leia and her unborn child

Originally posted by Lightsnake
One thing: Leia provided zero support or help whatsoever during the duel with Sidious. Luke had the edge because he fought harder realizing if he died, Sidious would gain possession of Leia and her unborn child

You can see her meditating in the background and Luke did teach her battle meditation before. I really don't see the point why Luke should have fought harder than in the fight when he clearly wanted to kill Sidious. Notice how he doesn't kill him after having disarmed him.

And Sidious says he's through playing 'Jedi Dueling games'...Jedi don't tend to follow up a Cho Mai with a decapitating stroke. Leia does nothing but watch in the duel, according to the sourcebook

And the sourcebook is less canon than the comic itself, which shows Leia using an elementary form of Jedi Meditation.. Thank you for playing.

Actually, it shows her watching, troll boy. There's nothing saying she's using battle meditation...wasn't the first time BM was even identified Dark Empire 2 anyways?

Troll boy, coming from the biggest troll on this forum, way to go hypocrite. And it even states that Leia used elementary Jedi Battle Meditation in the first fight, so nice job trying to disprove reality.

And where is that exactly, I'm curious

Empire's End, open up before making a weak argument.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Actually, it shows her watching, troll boy. There's nothing saying she's using battle meditation...wasn't the first time BM was even identified Dark Empire 2 anyways?

Yes.
She is watching the fight with closed eyes and starts developing some glowing aura around her without any reason - especially no force use when we see the very same stuff later when Luke and Leia combine their force powers to isolate Sidious from the force storm...

lol

Take it up with canon and Veitch, not me. I'm just going by what's written. And are her eyes closed? The really bad color scheme makes it impossible to tell
And yes, Td...where in Empire's End is Leia using BM on Luke and Sidious about a year prior mentioned?

What are you retarded? It says something to the point of "In the first fight with the reborn emperor, you had the natural ability of using elementary battle meditation". Look it up, don't argue with facts.

Actually, it's your job to make with the proof. Page number?

And by the time of Dark Empire, Battle Meditation even been named

Open Empire Ends..The part right after Palpatine goes to Korriban and is shown where Leia and the unborn child are...

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b311/JawaKing_987/Lukevs.jpg

Notice the dark shroud over the panel with Sidious pressing Luke against a wall. Then, look to the left and you see Leia with a bright aura around her. The panel immediately under that has Luke throwing back Palpatine, and the darkness literally shattering, tearing away. Hm. Are we going to chalk this up to Leia being happy about her pregnancy, and thus inspiring Luke to live to see her children? Or could it be - *drumroll* HELP?

And the sourcebook says all Leia could do was watch.

And the comic says otherwise.

Actually the comic says nothing on the subject and merely shows interpetable images

Faunus thanks for the scans, lightsnake you are an idiot.

Tsk tsk, tdtd, bashing again?

I argue against Lightsnake, however. Hurray for artistic symbolism.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Tsk tsk, tdtd, bashing again?
He has the chronic bashing disease.

Ah yes, CBD...

This combined with BCB (Bored Collage Boy) is often fatal to the poster as it generally causes a low repuation and eventually in most cases leads to a ban.

Of course I'm bashing Lightsnake, I'm glad we can all read here. I provide a good argument, he calls me a troll and goes against facts. This is grounds for bashing, thanks.

You're a laugh, tdtd. Thing is, you ARE a troll. Don't you remember being BANNED for it? There are NO grounds for bashing, you've worked up your reputation, and being an ass about people calling you a troll isn't helping it, is it?

Actually I've constantly provided valid arguments for lightsnake. Instead of refuting them Lightsnake starts with the personal attacks, but it's MY reputation when I bash someone. When I call lightsnake an idiot it's because he repeatedly goes against facts, comics, etc... So it's accurate.

And you think I care what you think is right, do you?

Go read the rules for the forum, and report Lightsnake, not bash him. Big 'duh!' right there.

No, I never thought you cared what I think, hence the reputation..

Originally posted by Captain REX
You're a laugh, tdtd. Thing is, you ARE a troll. Don't you remember being BANNED for it? There are NO grounds for bashing, you've worked up your reputation, and being an ass about people calling you a troll isn't helping it, is it?

Tdtd isnt a troll, he is 100% sincere in everything he says.

indeed

Originally posted by tdtd
indeed

...And that is why you are so sad.

Okay! Next person to make a trolling comment or any comment that's not on topic gets a warning, and some people can't afford it.

Back on topic!

Gay Luke beats Shaft, end of topic!

Rather, Mace tools Luke with the lightsaber form he created and mastered, half a century of being the creme de la creme of his Order, superior Force power and mastery, and his unique shatterpoint ability. As to the strength issue: Mace was on the verge of crushing a Korun guerilla fighter's arm with his grip, landed a blow on Kar Vastor that picked him off of the ground and hurled him several feet away, and fended off a crazed Billaba with several broken or fractured bones, blaster buns, and a hole in his stomach.

So Luke picking up Han Solo with 1 hand means nothing? Luke's insane saber abilities in the Palpatine fight doesn't matteR?

You mean the insane saber abilities that had him on the floor with Palpatine's lightsaber at his throat? The amazing strength that had him backed up against a wall in a one-handed lock with Palpatine? The same Palpatine, mind you, who Mace - and I quote - overpowered in their duel on Coruscant.

And we've seen Luke form a shield around himself to block AT AT fire, be good enough to square off with Vader (ROTJ novelization the source there), and he's also good and strong enough to strike the fire back at said war mech...even by DE, Luke's skills are extremely formidable, especially after learning the forbidden Jedi and Sith arts.

But, feel free to argue against my opinion on the Leia thing...might be the source book was wrong, might be that it wasn't. Nothing big enough to launch pages long debates over

Mace's shatterpoint ability isn't infallible either...Case in point: Sidious and Anakin.

And this isn't the same Palpatine that Mace fought in Coruscant...this is the 'living embodiment of the Dark Side' Palpatine, whose final, and achievable goal was to shed loose his mortal body and become the Dark Side

Well Luke blocking an AT-AT won't really help him in a saber fight, and for the last time Faunus, ROTS Sidious is NOT DE Sidious, nor on the same level as DE Sidious.

Originally posted by Faunus
You mean the insane saber abilities that had him on the floor with Palpatine's lightsaber at his throat? The amazing strength that had him backed up against a wall in a one-handed lock with Palpatine? The same Palpatine, mind you, who Mace - and I quote - overpowered in their duel on Coruscant.


DE Sidious is far more powerful than ROTS Sidious, I thought this was self-evident.

Yup

Keep in mind that this was Palpatine's first real sabre fight in at least 13 years (Besides possibly sparring with Maul).

Mace was alot more in shape.

DE luke

LUKE

lol, I give it to Luke "teh oober leet" skywalker.

Gay Luke owns

This is true...

http://www.geocities.com/starlamedra2/sexyluke2.jpg

Hamill...he was sexxxxxxxxxy back in the day



No one can defeat Gay Luke!

New and improved!

Notice the correctness of the lightsaber hilt...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And we've seen Luke form a shield around himself to block AT AT fire, be good enough to square off with Vader (ROTJ novelization the source there), and he's also good and strong enough to strike the fire back at said war mech...even by DE, Luke's skills are extremely formidable, especially after learning the forbidden Jedi and Sith arts.

And we've seen Mace destroying an entire army of battle droids on his own when he didn't have his lightsaber for a great part of the fight and on top of that he destroyed the seismic tank.
Somehow this is more impressive than Luke blocking some heavy blasterfire (which was done by Tott Doneeta too) or redirecting said blasterfire (in AotC you can see Mace deflecting six blaster bolts in less than 2 second and this is nothing compared to the things he pulls off in "Shatterpoint".



Original source > Sourcebook and the source shows us clearly that Leia was helping Luke. I don't see any point to argue here.



Where did it fail, huh ? Even according to the novel he saw Sidious Shatterpoint (Anakin) and that gave him the ability to disarm Sidious. It's just that he sees binding points in the force and not that he can look into the future.



Wow...and I thought that Sidious wanted to pocess body after body to live forever. Windu still does have more training, more saber skill and more force control compared to DE Luke. The same way Obi-Wan had more force control compared to Anakin and therefor could stalemate him in the "force push" situation. Luke simply doesn't have a chance to win this...just because he doesn't have enough training / control.

Firstly, the AT-AT stoppage was pretty damn impressive, and then the ability to take it down was even more impressive. Secondly, I just realized, and this may be incorrect, but Palpatine's ability to cheat death through the way he did may have not been Plageuis' technique. If you look at TOTJ, Exar Kun learned that same technique from the notes of Sadow, so if it is the same technique, which I believe it is, then Plagueis didn't develop it at all.

Originally posted by tdtd
Firstly, the AT-AT stoppage was pretty damn impressive, and then the ability to take it down was even more impressive.

If blocking a few shots from an AT-AT is impressive, blocking over a dozen bolts of automatic turbolaser fire from a pair of turrets on a gunship must be. . . I dunno, you think of an adjective. And using the Force to bring down an AT-AT is pretty good, but what do you think of tearing down, manipulating, and then suspending a cliff with ''hundreds'' of tons of rock and earth.

Faunus I was making a simple statement, I wasn't going anywhere with it. But yes, I do think stopping a powerful AT-AT blast(and it is oh so power), is impressive..

And we've seen Mace destroying an entire army of battle droids on his own when he didn't have his lightsaber for a great part of the fight and on top of that he destroyed the seismic tank.
Somehow this is more impressive than Luke blocking some heavy blasterfire (which was done by Tott Doneeta too) or redirecting said blasterfire (in AotC you can see Mace deflecting six blaster bolts in less than 2 second and this is nothing compared to the things he pulls off in "Shatterpoint".
In the cartoon...and Tott's a weakling suddenly? Plus, the far more primitive fighters of that era compared to the AT AT mechs of Luke's era.



Original source > Sourcebook and the source shows us clearly that Leia was helping Luke. I don't see any point to argue here.
Except it provided an image you interpreted one way. And if Original sources are better than sourcebooks, why is Kadann alive and why is the 'First Schism' now Xendor's rise?



Where did it fail, huh ? Even according to the novel he saw Sidious Shatterpoint (Anakin) and that gave him the ability to disarm Sidious. It's just that he sees binding points in the force and not that he can look into the future.

Palpatine's shatterpoint, the Shatterpoint of the Dark Side itself: That he trusted Anakin. And the problem is, Sidious was absolutely, one hundred percent right in that trust. Mace was too busy looking for Palpatine's shatterpoint that he couldn't see Anakin's


Wow...and I thought that Sidious wanted to pocess body after body to live forever. Windu still does have more training, more saber skill and more force control compared to DE Luke. The same way Obi-Wan had more force control compared to Anakin and therefor could stalemate him in the "force push" situation. Luke simply doesn't have a chance to win this...just because he doesn't have enough training / control.
Living forever to becoming the dark side itself, which sounds better? I take what the material says....and Windu has more saber skill? Luke was able to match Vader well enough in ROTJ, has demonstrated a more than ample grasp of the force, and when has length of training ever mattered in SW? And show me an Anakin when he's not out of his mind with grief and rage

Originally posted by Lightsnake
In the cartoon...

''Mace's troops were decimated by the terrible power of a seismic tank, and even though he was temporarily disarmed in the confusion of the battlefield, Mace was able to single-handedly defeat the droid forces and destroy the tank.''



Compared to the greats of any given era? Yeah, Tott's a small fry. And while I agree that Luke's use of the Force is more impressive than Doneeta's, it's not nearly enough to put him above Mace, whose perception and connection to the Force as a seven year-old dwarfed that of most Jedi Masters.



So a reference guide to an actual source / event is more useful and accurate than the source of the information itself? Is a book written in 2006 on Roman culture and tradition more accurate and reliable than a firsthand observation of such traditions themselves?



And Mace ended up realizing this, albeit a moment too late. But unless Luke is going to have Dorsk 81 jump in and maim a stunned Windu for him, this singular, highly exaggerated mishap in his ability won't matter at all.



A conflicted and controversial battle at best. And Vader himself has nothing on Mace, so I don't see where this is going.



How? By blocking a few blasts from an AT-AT, when Mace has shown himself to be capable of even greater, if different, abilities?



When Obi-Wan's control and expertise in the Force allowed him to stalemate a less experienced, but far more powerful enemy, and in end had the elder Jedi strewing Anakin's limbs across the slopes of Mustafar.



Numerous battles in Obsession, The Defense of Kamino, Labyrinth of Evil, and several more occasions.

Originally posted by Faunus
''Mace's troops were decimated by the terrible power of a seismic tank, and even though he was temporarily disarmed in the confusion of the battlefield, Mace was able to single-handedly defeat the droid forces and destroy the tank.''



Compared to the greats of any given era? Yeah, Tott's a small fry. And while I agree that Luke's use of the Force is more impressive than Doneeta's, it's not nearly enough to put him above Mace, whose perception and connection to the Force as a seven year-old dwarfed that of most Jedi Masters.



So a reference guide to an actual source / event is more useful and accurate than the source of the information itself? Is a book written in 2006 on Roman culture and tradition more accurate and reliable than a firsthand observation of such traditions themselves?



And Mace ended up realizing this, albeit a moment too late. But unless Luke is going to have Dorsk 81 jump in and maim a stunned Windu for him, this singular, highly exaggerated mishap in his ability won't matter at all.



A conflicted and controversial battle at best. And Vader himself has nothing on Mace, so I don't see where this is going.



How? By blocking a few blasts from an AT-AT, when Mace has shown himself to be capable of even greater, if different, abilities?



When Obi-Wan's control and expertise in the Force allowed him to stalemate a less experienced, but far more powerful enemy, and in end had the elder Jedi strewing Anakin's limbs across the slopes of Mustafar.



Numerous battles in Obsession, The Defense of Kamino, Labyrinth of Evil, and several more occasions.

And we know Luke can destroy more advanced machines...Luke's even been stated to have the raw power that can destroy star destroyers.

And Luke? Who after several years of late training could square off with Vader and was considered the greatest threat the Sith faced?

In some cases, yes, the reference guide is more useful than the source material. According to one of the authors, they're all on the same level and comics and books supercede nothing if LFL decides to change it. All are C-canon.

Highly exaggerated? Mace pretty much ignored what was complete and true emotional agitation from someone who was declaring how much he needed Palp.

Vader has nothing on Mace? Same Vader who squared off with eight jedi masters, slaughtered about twenty knights on Hapes, killed the Dark Woman and made the entirety of the royal guard look like chumps, the Vader whose younger form was a match for Count Dooku?

Obi was also Anakin's teacher, fighting with a cooler head and knew Anakin inside and out. He won because Anakin made a horrible error that he never would've made if his head was clear

My point exactly: When Anakin's in control, he tends to win.

Sorry it took me so long to write up a reply, Nai.

Originally posted by Borbarad
What ? He was Sidious personal advisior when Sidious was a Senator meaning until 32 BBY at max. And since he was born in 70 BBY he most likely took that position when he was more than 30 years old.

30 years old, perhaps, but he had maybe 15 years of training, as he wasn't trained from birth. I think he was 17 when he began his training, but I'm away from home, so I can't look it up.

Also note that Jorus progressed extremely rapidly. It took him two years with a Master to become a Jedi Knight.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And obviously he wasn't part of the Jedi Council so he isn't that special...
Also notice that the main contact of the Jedi Council to the Supreme Chancelor was Mace himself, not Jorus.

Since when have only special Jedi been part of the Jedi Council? What about Luminara, Sora, Depa, Vos, Echuu, ect. All very powerful, yet not on the Council.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You simply ignore the effects of Dark Side use. Sidious was able to keep an entire planet population (Byss) under control and this is the guy who Dooku thought would get destroyed by a Dark Side Yoda.

Oh, so suddenly Dooku was talking not about ROTS Sidious, but DE Sidious. Just the guy with a brand new body and 25 years of experince over his former self.

And if the effects of the are so great, then why wouldn't Dooku totally pwn Mace now that he is on the Darkside, since even when he was on the lightside he was slightly better then him. Dooku's statement is shaky at best.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Did you watch ESB ? :P

Yes. I wasn't talking about ESB though.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He did cut off Sidious hand in a lightsaber fight but he had help from Leia at this point (probably using a basic version of battle meditation). And Luke in the first NJO book still had 15 years of training advantage compared to his DE self, not even mentioning his actual combat experience (fights against former students, the Calista trilogy, the Black Fleet crisis) and his additional knowledge gaining.

Even if we take out the extra experince from those fifteen years, he was still strong enough to defeat DE Sidious in lightsaber combat with out help, as I will explain below.

"Battle meditation was a manifestation of the Force which instilled in the meditator's allies a greater morale in battle and reduced the enemy's will to fight. Using the Force, one could coordinate entire fleets of ships, allowing them to perform at maximum efficiency, acting as one to counter every enemy move quickly and effectively. "

I don't see how battle meditation helped coordinate Luke when he was fighting alone, so it did nothing in that area. Furthermore, Sidious has been waiting for several years to get his revenge on Luke since Luke fuked up his Empire. I doubt Leia's level of battle meditation would have ANY affect on Sidious. I don't see how Leia helped him.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The simple fact that Mace had 5 times the training time and a more formal training compared to Luke, not even talking about far more battle experience when it came to the "jedi way" of fighting (force use, lightsaber combat).

Did it help him that much? Does that automatically mean that Mace is better then Luke? Look at Exar Kun and Yoda. Exar is more powerful then Yoda, yet Yoda has more then ten times the experince and training.

Originally posted by Borbarad
First Luke did that after the DE comics (Black Fleet trilogy - 16 ABY) and he manipulated the force directly creating a sort of "loop" in it. The amount of actual force energy needed to do that is unknown since it's based on an entire different philosophy of force used compare to the one the Jedi have.

Luke must be pretty capable if he was able to make such great strides in efficient force usuage in such a little time. I don't think Luke was able to make a new force version that is better then the one that the entire Jedi Order refined for 25,000 years after maybe 20 years of learning.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He did fight Vader two times (three if you include SotME) and Sidious two times. Then you have him facing Luuke, Joruus and Mara Jade and that is what with lightsaber combat / confronting force users (in the time of DE).
Mace confronted Dooku, Grievous, Depa, Kar Vastor, Quinlan Vos, 3 of Dooku's Dark Acolytes and Sidious. Not to mention that he used to duel with Yoda and Dooku as both have bested him.

Firstly, Mace fought the Dark Acolytes from the cockpit of a tank, not with a lightsaber. Kar Vastor was not lightsaber to lightsaber either. And he never even really tried against Depa, meaning he couldn't have become much better. The same is true for Vos. If you sword fight with someone who knows barely anything about sword fighting, you aren't going to become as strong as if you only fought sword fighters who are really good.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes...I'm perfectly sure that Luke has a superior strength compared to the guy who could compete with Kar Vastor in unarmed combat, hammered through durasteel battle droids with his bare hands and was trained in melee combat (armed and unarmed) for his entire life. I really doubt it.

Are the CW cartoons suddenly canon? I don't think so. If Mace was strong enough to punch through durasteel droids, why did so many Jedi die on Geonosis? He could have killed them all by himself if he fought like he did in CW cartoons. The answer is that he can't. Mace canonly cannot punch through durasteel droids.

As for Kar, I seem to remember Kar beating the living crap out of him. I don't call that comparing with Kar Vastor in unarmed combat. I call that getting defeated by Kar Vastor in unarmed combat.

Luke has demonstrated to be extremely capable physically in ROTJ and before.

As I stated earlier, Luke OVERPOWERED Vader in a saber lock. You know, the big metal guy who can lift a fully grown man over his head with his weak hand as his good hand had just been cut off while being electrocuted with a lethal amount of energy and having his oxygen supply go out. I would not be surprised if Vader is stronger then Kar.

Even before ROTJ, Luke defeated Guri in unarmed combat. She was a HRD with "superhuman strength".

...At the end of this interrogation, when her captors moved to remove the metal bonds they had trapped her with, she burst them herself in a dramatic show of superhuman strength.

Luke defeated her unarmed, before ROTJ, while in Xizor's Palace (her turf).

Something leads me to believe Luke would defeat him in both armed and unarmed combat.

One thing to add, Glentract. You can't compare Exar Kun and Yoda.. In fact you can't compare a sith and a Jedi, considering Yoda, as a Jedi, had a limit to what he could study or do, as all Jedi. The Sith on the other hand had no limits to what they could study or do, so that's not a good comparison. I could just as easily say that a dark side Yoda, with 900 years of dark side/light side knowledge, could skull**** any SW character..

And considering Yoda's inferiority to Kun is in question, a bad comparison. And when Mace could look at the seismic tank and use the force alone to bring the thing down..

No, you can't make up shit about how powerful Yoda might be if he was on the darkside. I CAN compare Yoda and Exar, because we know how powerful both of them are. You're saying that we can't compare DN Luke to Exar, or Mace to Sidious, or any Jedi to any Sith, which is bullshit.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And considering Yoda's inferiority to Kun is in question, a bad comparison. And when Mace could look at the seismic tank and use the force alone to bring the thing down..

Firstly, the cartoons aren't canon. Second, Exar being better then Yoda really isn't in question, just take a look at some of IKC's proof from a while back.

I'm saying it's not a good comparison because a good Sith>a good Jedi anyday.. You can compare them sure but it's not an even ground because you have an ideal based on restraint and limits and then you have an ideal based on no restraints, ergo limitless knowledge, power, and potential.

Yoda has been described as the 'the most powerful foe the darkness had ever known.' I don't think Kun's the strongest the darkness have ever had to offer

Originally posted by jollyjim311
It would be a good fight, but lightsaber skills are close and Luke has the force. I don't see Mace walking away from this one.

Really? I see Mace crawling away from this one...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda has been described as the 'the most powerful foe the darkness had ever known.' I don't think Kun's the strongest the darkness have ever had to offer

So Yoda is stronger then DN Luke? Good job proving that load of bull. The quote could easily have mean that Yoda was the strongest foe the Darkside had ever know not by his own strength, but by the strength of the hundreds of students he trained. You don't have to powerful to be someone's strongest foe.

Originally posted by tdtd
I'm saying it's not a good comparison because a good Sith>a good Jedi anyday.. You can compare them sure but it's not an even ground because you have an ideal based on restraint and limits and then you have an ideal based on no restraints, ergo limitless knowledge, power, and potential.

I don't see that as an valid argument. Fights aren't fair.

Originally posted by tdtd
I'm saying it's not a good comparison because a good Sith>a good Jedi anyday.. You can compare them sure but it's not an even ground because you have an ideal based on restraint and limits and then you have an ideal based on no restraints, ergo limitless knowledge, power, and potential.

I have always found the Jedi ideals weak, and pretty much a crutch on the Jedi because they hold them back, without being able to reach their potential. Yoda being as powerful as he was with all of these constraints speaks volumes about his power. I'm not saying he's stronger than Kun, because he's not. But as we recall, the new Jedi Ideals started by Luke seem to be the best ones. There's no light side, there's no dark side, blah blah blah, no constraints...

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So Yoda is stronger then DN Luke? Good job proving that load of bull. The quote could easily have mean that Yoda was the strongest foe the Darkside had ever know not by his own strength, but by the strength of the hundreds of students he trained. You don't have to powerful to be someone's strongest foe.

Good job ignoring that's before Luke is even born. And yes, Yoda isn't the strongest enemy the darkside has ever had in a direct reference to combat with the dark side, when the term is something along the lines of "The fiercest, strongest, most implacable foe.'

Yoda was the strongest enemy the darkside had ever known up until his death. Nobody is disputing that.. But it's not "EVER".. 900 years of being unrivaled sounds right, but then Luke came along.

Up until that point, the ever applied

Originally posted by tdtd
I have always found the Jedi ideals weak, and pretty much a crutch on the Jedi because they hold them back, without being able to reach their potential. Yoda being as powerful as he was with all of these constraints speaks volumes about his power. I'm not saying he's stronger than Kun, because he's not. But as we recall, the new Jedi Ideals started by Luke seem to be the best ones. There's no light side, there's no dark side, blah blah blah, no constraints...

If the Jedi are so weak why did they ALWAYS win in the end?

There's so damn many of them?
I think this description of the dark side sums it up: "Quicker, more seductive."
The dark's a quicker means to pwoer than the light, but the light's where the true power lies

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
If the Jedi are so weak why did they ALWAYS win in the end?


That can't be a serious question.. Really... Welcome to the wonderful world of Science fiction/fantasy, where the good guys always win...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
There's so damn many of them?
I think this description of the dark side sums it up: "Quicker, more seductive."
The dark's a quicker means to pwoer than the light, but the light's where the true power lies
I agree

Originally posted by Lightsnake
There's so damn many of them?
I think this description of the dark side sums it up: "Quicker, more seductive."
The dark's a quicker means to pwoer than the light, but the light's where the true power lies I agree with the first part of that,but it's been said that the 'Grey Side' of the Force is more powerful,because you limit yourself by joining one side only, Light or Dark,when your Grey,it's said to be more powerful,because you have no limits,it's a mix of both,now THAT is true power.

There is no gray area.. There was a myth about Shadow Jedi, that use both sides of the force depending on their situation, but I think that's just a myth.

Originally posted by tdtd
There is no gray area.. There was a myth about Shadow Jedi, that use both sides of the force depending on their situation, but I think that's just a myth.
Na in NJO they follow that concept.

Ahh ok

It's arguable that people like Jolee or Qui-Gon was a bit "Gray Jedi"-ish. But he was pure good.

Actually they hammered out that Grey philosophy stuff in DN, pretty much decided how useless it really is

I always found the Grey idea cooler than jusy Dark or Light.

The Shadow concept combines the light and the dark side, I would think it is superior to just the dark side or just the light side.

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
I always found the Grey idea cooler than jusy Dark or Light.

I found it irredeemably stupid.

I don't know, the ability to use both the best of the light and dark sides seems superior to anything else.

Originally posted by tdtd
The Shadow concept combines the light and the dark side, I would think it is superior to just the dark side or just the light side.


Wrong, true power is only obtained by following a set path. Show a grey jedi that can defeat Yoda or Sidious.

As "Jonathan Mark" says, the new Jedi Order such as Kyp, and Luke. Therefore, it isn't wrong, considering they both know the dark side.

Originally posted by tdtd
As "Jonathan Mark" says, the new Jedi Order such as Kyp, and Luke. Therefore, it isn't wrong, considering they both know the dark side.


Nope, they follow the light. DN makes this clear.

No meant that NJO they followed the Grey Jedi way... then they decided to go full light by DN.

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
No meant that NJO they followed the Grey Jedi way... then they decided to go full light by DN.

Not really, they were still on the light. A grey jedi is equally light and dark...Luke just used a couple DS powers every once and a while. He was still the good guy through and through.

Have you read the NJO series? Luke himself wasn't very dark, but his Jedi? Pfft. Or rather, a line from Jedi Academy on their philosophy:

''No Force power is inherently light or dark; it's how they're used.''

I'm not necessarily ago for the Grey philosophy, but more for the removal of the stupid restrictions the old Jedi had. No love and all that bullshit... I mean really if you look at the big picture it certainly didn't help. I think Jolee pointed out the crux of the problem pretty well.

Originally posted by Faunus
Have you read the NJO series? Luke himself wasn't very dark, but his Jedi? Pfft. Or rather, a line from Jedi Academy on their philosophy:

''No Force power is inherently light or dark; it's how they're used.''

Did Lukes jedi commit any DS acts at all? Using DS powers every now and then doesnt make you dark.

Luke got rid of that completely

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
I'm not necessarily ago for the Grey philosophy, but more for the removal of the stupid restrictions the old Jedi had. No love and all that bullshit... I mean really if you look at the big picture it certainly didn't help. I think Jolee pointed out the crux of the problem pretty well.

Removing the restrictions is fine, as long as you can handle staying true to the path of the light. PT jedi had the restrictions, because then its easier to stay on the light. Love complicates things, it gives you a reason to turn dark...case in point: Vader.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Removing the restrictions is fine, as long as you can handle staying true to the path of the light. PT jedi had the restrictions, because then its easier to stay on the light. Love complicates things, it gives you a reason to turn dark...case in point: Vader.
Yes but if Anakin had been able to confide with Yoda about his relationship without the fear of being expelled from the Jedi order... what might have happened differently?

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
Yes but if Anakin had been able to confide with Yoda about his relationship without the fear of being expelled from the Jedi order... what might have happened differently?

Perhaps nothing, really. It wasnt pressure that got Anakin to turn, it was fear of Padmes death. Now what might of happened differently if Anakin never got in a relationship in the first place?

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Perhaps nothing, really. It wasnt pressure that got Anakin to turn, it was fear of Padmes death. Now what might of happened differently if Anakin never got in a relationship in the first place?
Nothing, but then Lucas' goal it seemed was only to portray the negatives of relationships...

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
Nothing, but then Lucas' goal it seemed was only to portray the negatives of relationships...

Your saying Anakin would of turned dark anyways without Padmes influence?