Exar Kun and DN Luke Vs Rots Sidious and ROts Yoda

Motoko Sama

Originally posted by Master Fox
His amulet really isn't that impressive. It is clear that he set out to kill Aleema, he used the amulet on her with the intention of killing her and it was a simple attack that looks easy to block and that didn't even kill Aleema with full impact.

To think that was the same attack, let alone the fact that he can't produce the same effect is pretty ridiculous. Here's the jist of what I wrote about it:

First off, before Kun even mentions anything about "not being able to control it", he says "Yes, Nadd...I...I believe I begin to understand", and the omniscient narrator comes in to say "What Exar Kun understands is that the dark rage that fills his own heart can be focused in this amulet, unleashing tremendous energies!" - and on the same page we see him use the blasts which seem to have the same magnitude as the others. Then, on the next page, he says he can't control it as the energy increases - though there is no mention of this on the previous page of Kun not controlling it when we see the blasts first disintegrate temple walls.

The blast had enough power to throw her across the room, and knock her unconcious - but not enough to even leave a burn? I highly doubt that's the same attack. Not ruling out it isn't, but I wouldn't count it as the same either. Even though they had two different artists, the attacks look different anyways - red squiggly lines and pink DBZ blasts. Hell, even Aleema produced an illusion that looked similiar to Kun's blast, so really I think the artist knew what he was drawing.

As well, have you taken into account that he wasn't even attuned to the Darkside during that point? Hadn't learned jack of the Darkside, and was almost clueless?

The fact he could use blasts to that magnitude, direct them, and not be consumed by them when he didn't know jack about the Darkside is impressive. Since that time he's gained immense knowledge - "more knowledge and wealth than he can ever hope to use", vast insights into the Darkside, and obviously tremendous power - to think he can't produce the same effect and control it would call for an actual explanation rather than "omg Aleema blastz = fin4l product" - because that's all the damn evidence you guys who support the theory have.

I suppose though that it's the same attack (not really) - I mean Ulic, who knew nothing of Nadd's direct teaching and barely anything of the amulet he possessed, knew how to or did create blasts like Kun did on Yavin, didn't he? No, no he didn't. And seeing as how he used a blast which had similiar effect to Kun's blast on Aleema, on Cay and Nomi, it doesn't seem to be the same attack at all.

Oh yeah:

Lightsnake

Unlike Vodo, Obi-wan accepted Ani had to be taken down

Admiral Akbar

Forget the amulet. He has no time to prepare it. Yoda would be on him in a matter of seconds and sidious would be blasting his lightning. Kun will have to depend on a saber fight. I dont see him seperating the two. Let alone trying to seperate yoda.

Null ARC Avis

proof? it is dark RAGE. rage is an emotion. emotions change. His RAGE changes. learn to read before you post.

Null ARC Avis

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Unlike Vodo, Obi-wan accepted Ani had to be taken down why? because Anakin was a huge threat? So was Kun! wodo came ready to fight and he did. he lost after trying.
@ Ackbar the amulat takes about as much time as a force push. he can use it.

Lightsnake

Not according to Vodo.

Master Fox

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
Obi wan didnt want to kill anakin. master and apprentice. guess who the master is? Vodo.
the former apprentice? Kun. same thing. *Clap clap*
He killed a gient sithspawn, creatures feared by the jedi, created by naga sadow. he blew right through its head and the wall on the other side of it. he killed massasi very easily with it. sure they werent jedi but who care. if you kill a sithspawn...

Firstly Vodo wasn't trying as hard as Kun. he knew he had to stop him but he set out to turn him or disarm him, not to kill him. Secondly, Exar Kun did not tool Vodo. It was very close and Kun was never able to break through Vodo's defences by outdueling him. Thirdly, the factor that affected the outcome of the fight was not who was more powerful or skilled, but the fact that Vodo's stick had a weakness to Kun's saber. And finally, there is no reason to think that Vodo was so impressive and he was hardly a saber god like Yoda or Mace. Remember that George Lucas has said that the pt era was the golden age of saber dueling.

Now please remind me how his slaying of Vodo puts him above Sidious or Yoda in terms of saber abilities.

Master Fox

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
To think that was the same attack, let alone the fact that he can't produce the same effect is pretty ridiculous. Here's the jist of what I wrote about it:

First off, before Kun even mentions anything about "not being able to control it", he says "Yes, Nadd...I...I believe I begin to understand", and the omniscient narrator comes in to say "What Exar Kun understands is that the dark rage that fills his own heart can be focused in this amulet, unleashing tremendous energies!" - and on the same page we see him use the blasts which seem to have the same magnitude as the others. Then, on the next page, he says he can't control it as the energy increases - though there is no mention of this on the previous page of Kun not controlling it when we see the blasts first disintegrate temple walls.

The blast had enough power to throw her across the room, and knock her unconcious - but not enough to even leave a burn? I highly doubt that's the same attack. Not ruling out it isn't, but I wouldn't count it as the same either. Even though they had two different artists, the attacks look different anyways - red squiggly lines and pink DBZ blasts. Hell, even Aleema produced an illusion that looked similiar to Kun's blast, so really I think the artist knew what he was drawing.

As well, have you taken into account that he wasn't even attuned to the Darkside during that point? Hadn't learned jack of the Darkside, and was almost clueless?

The fact he could use blasts to that magnitude, direct them, and not be consumed by them when he didn't know jack about the Darkside is impressive. Since that time he's gained immense knowledge - "more knowledge and wealth than he can ever hope to use", vast insights into the Darkside, and obviously tremendous power - to think he can't produce the same effect and control it would call for an actual explanation rather than "omg Aleema blastz = fin4l product" - because that's all the damn evidence you guys who support the theory have.

I suppose though that it's the same attack (not really) - I mean Ulic, who knew nothing of Nadd's direct teaching and barely anything of the amulet he possessed, knew how to or did create blasts like Kun did on Yavin, didn't he? No, no he didn't. And seeing as how he used a blast which had similiar effect to Kun's blast on Aleema, on Cay and Nomi, it doesn't seem to be the same attack at all.

Oh yeah:

Well Mokoto the fact remains that he set out to kill Aleema and his amulet blast that was not only simple but very ineffective was the final result. That is the only time we have seen it used against a force user, so there is no reason to assume it would be any more affective. That is just desperate fanboyism.

Master Fox

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
proof? it is dark RAGE. rage is an emotion. emotions change. His RAGE changes. learn to read before you post.

'The dark rage inside his heart' is not a simple emotion like anger. It is the hate and anger that is deep inside his heart.

Motoko Sama

Originally posted by Master Fox
Firstly Vodo wasn't trying as hard as Kun.

Really? Wasn't trying as hard as Kun? Go on, Foxy. Back up this ridiculous claim.

Either way, he would be trying his hardest to put an end to him, even in disarming - you will not be able to disarm or take someone down by playing your weakest in a one-on-one. That much should already be known.

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/9048/stopkun8cf.th.jpg

Was he there to stop him or not, ?

Really?

http://img334.imageshack.us/img334/7359/padawankun5qr.th.jpg

To think a now master of the lightsaber Kun, with vast insights into the Darkside, Nadd's teachings, Sadow's scrolls, Sith magic and alchemy, and Sadow's amulet couldn't tool Vodo is pretty ridiculous seeing as how well he faired against Vodo as a padawan with two sabers.

Really?

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/5320/vodokunduel1lj.th.jpg

He was taunting him and trying to convert Vodo to the Darkside, did you miss the "join me"? Then he casually steps back, ignites the other end of his lightsaber, and then without much effort, cleaves Vodo in two with one side of his blade, in another words, toying with him.

Really?

http://img334.imageshack.us/img334/1967/vodostick7pv.th.jpg

"More powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber" z0mg weakness.

Sure was, I mean Coleman Trebor rocks.

No, I've put together a valid arguement. The only thing you can say is the Aleema blast is the final product, in which I've given a multitude of reasons why it isn't. The fact that you don't bother to refute my arguement, and instead try to downplay it is what the definition of a "desperate fanboy" is. So, until you actually refute it - don't call anyone a "fan", because you are so linear in thinking.

On top of that, you were banned for a reason, so leave.

Lightsnake

Sama, Vodo was trying to stop Kun, but he wasn't fighting as best as he would have if he were trying to kill him....by his own admission he was there to try to turn Kun back, he says as much in the JA trilogy.

And leave Coleman out of this! It's not like Ood Bnar is better...poor Coleman, knew he was dead anyways...man was a mediator! And a dinosaur!

Btw, your IM working?

Master Fox

I'll reply tomorrow. Don't have time because my mum's making me go to bed.

Motoko Sama

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sama, Vodo was trying to stop Kun, but he wasn't fighting as best as he would have if he were trying to kill him

Alright, and was Kun trying his hardest? Trying harder than Vodo? Considering he was chatting it up with Vodo, I'd think if anything then that they neither was giving it their all, and Vodo was definitely not giving it easier than Kun was, .

Perhaps there was a chance you noticed that Kun was talking as well? Trying to recruit Vodo? Then once he stops and ignites his saber, he cleaves Vodo in half effortlessly.

Quote, please.

If this is what the Jedi Council have in their seats, then it's quite laughable:

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/8509/yareal5lr.th.jpg

Yep.

Fine with me.

Admiral Akbar

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
why? because Anakin was a huge threat? So was Kun! wodo came ready to fight and he did. he lost after trying.
@ Ackbar the amulat takes about as much time as a force push. he can use it.

Oh...So it takes him about a split second to gather all his rage together and send a devastating blow? I doubt it....A force push takes maybe 1/2 a second.

Lightsnake

Kun pretty much just says "Screw it," When Vodo refuses Kun's offer, gives him another chance later and when Vodo refuses, Kun kills him...and Vodo was injured there.

And a direct quote would require me to reread Dark Apprentice, it's towards the end, just before the holocron is destroyed. He says he was there to turn Kun back and couldn't truly fight Exar, and Exar killed him.

Yarael Poof was pretty damn good, actually, man died saving Coruscant from total destruction.

And you're sure? I don't see you online

Motoko Sama

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Oh...So it takes him about a split second to gather all his rage together and send a devastating blow? I doubt it....A force push takes maybe 1/2 a second.

Actually, it doesn't seem to take long at all:

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/816/kuntempleamulet5el.th.jpg

As soon as the amulet clamps on his arm, the blasts fire. As well, you'd have to take into consideration he can emit these blasts consecutively with no apparent downtime:

http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/1294/sadowshorrors5vt.th.jpg

Said where?

Yarael Poof...was pretty damn ugly.

Yeah, it's working. I'm just not on stick out tongue

Be on in a bit.

KMC Dark Lord

Motoko do you realizew how hard it is to read those pictures?

Lightsnake

Yeah, Yarael was ugly, but compared to Odan and Memit? And Exar slashed Vodo with his saber when he said 'join me'

Motoko Sama

Originally posted by KMC Dark Lord
Motoko do you realizew how hard it is to read those pictures?

What? You know you can click on them right? They are thumbnails. And, of course, when you click on them you should be able to read them perfectly.

Yeah, Odan was pretty ugly.

Actually yeah I see what you are talking about, but it doesn't seem he hit him - pushed him back maybe, or maybe he did hit his hand. Either way, *shrug*.

Lightsnake

I'm pretty sure Exar cut him...the torn cloth and such is the indicator of a connecting lightsaber swipe.

Admiral Akbar

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Actually, it doesn't seem to take long at all:

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/816/kuntempleamulet5el.th.jpg

As soon as the amulet clamps on his arm, the blasts fire. As well, you'd have to take into consideration he can emit these blasts consecutively with no apparent downtime:

http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/1294/sadowshorrors5vt.th.jpg

Said where?

Yarael Poof...was pretty damn ugly.

Yeah, it's working. I'm just not on stick out tongue

Be on in a bit.

I can see that. I just said that he cant conjure a blast faster than a force push. Thats all.

Escape81

What in God's name...

Escape81

Neither ROTS Sidious nor ROTS Yoda stand a remote chance against these two. Either one of their foes are more than a match for the both of them. Adding the other is simply overkill.

Master Fox

"Really? Wasn't trying as hard as Kun? Go on, Foxy. Back up this ridiculous claim."

As I said before, he did not set out to kill Kun. One can't battle to the best of their abilities when holding back from killing them. I thought this was obvious.

"To think a now master of the lightsaber Kun, with vast insights into the Darkside, Nadd's teachings, Sadow's scrolls, Sith magic and alchemy, and Sadow's amulet couldn't tool Vodo is pretty ridiculous seeing as how well he faired against Vodo as a padawan with two sabers."

These assumptions are all nice but the fact remains that the comic does not even hint or imply that Kun was 'tooling' him. That is just your interpretation of it and a very biased one if you ask me. My interpretation was that Kun was giving his all and could simply not break through Vodo's defence by outdueling him. Instead he had to destroy his stick. Also can you please explain how all the dark side knowledge and sith magic that Kun has learnt would improve his dueling ability.

"More powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber" z0mg weakness."

However that quote was obviously wrong and innaccurate as we have seen a saber destroy the stick twice in DLOTS and TSW. Vodo was simply wrong.

"Sure was, I mean Coleman Trebor rocks."

As did Arca Jeth. At least Coleman got killed by the best bounty hunter in the galaxy at the time. Arca Jeth got killed by simple Krath droids.

"No, I've put together a valid arguement. The only thing you can say is the Aleema blast is the final product, in which I've given a multitude of reasons why it isn't. The fact that you don't bother to refute my arguement, and instead try to downplay it is what the definition of a "desperate fanboy" is. So, until you actually refute it - don't call anyone a "fan", because you are so linear in thinking."

Did I say I was going to refute it? It all makes perfect sence to me. However you canot ignore the fact that Kun did set out to kill Aleema. If he had some uber technique with his amulets, don't you think he would have used it? Add on the fact that that is the only time we have ever seen it being used against a force user. It was both simple and innefective. The fact that you are even trying to argue that it was a different attack is desperate fanboyism.

"On top of that, you were banned for a reason, so leave."

I wasn't 'banned for a reason'. I was wrongly banned.

Lightsnake

Um, no, Escape. Yoda has been outright stated to the one of the strongest Jedi who ever lived. Saying 'neither they stand a remote chance' is lunacy

Master Fox

Luke probably could but no way could Exar.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Um, no, Escape. Yoda has been outright stated to the one of the strongest Jedi who ever lived. Saying 'neither they stand a remote chance' is lunacy

BS. He was stated as the greatest foe the darkside had known as of his time.

1. That does not prove that he is the greatest fighter up until that point. It is probably indicating to his teachings and how he kept so many Jedi on the light side.

2. Luke came AFTER Yoda. Luke is far better then Yoda. He's over 10 times more powerful then DE Sidious (I'll provide proof lower down).

3. Exar has demonstrated a feat in the force, besides destroying a star, that takes far more power then ANYTHING Yoda or Sidious have the potential to do.

For why Luke is so much stronger then Sidious, here it is. If you remember in the DN books, Raynar controlled the collective power of 365 planets. Each of these planets was filled to the brim with Kiliks, providing at the very minimum an equal amount of energy per planet as Byss did. Raynar's power supply is 365 times larger then DE Sidious' and DE Sidious is stronger then ROTS Sidious by a large margin.

Well, I can't find the large post I had for why Exar is better then Yoda or Sidious and I'm not retyping the whole thing. I'll post it later.

Lightsnake

No, sorry, it was 'EVER known'. As in Ever. As in of all time until his time. Period.

Oooh, sorry, 'strongest?' In direct reference to combat? With synonyms a 'fiercest?' Most powerful? Most implacable? Give me a break.

Exar destroyed a star? BULLSHIT! I'm calling you out on that: When? Because he was nowhere NEAR the star and Aleema was using the ship to do it. What's Exar done exactly? Omg, he froze a senate! Great, Sidious froze a world. Next point.

And Yoda is also called the greatest force of Light the galaxy had known...since Luke came after, this doesn't even apply.

Yeah, just try to back up Kun here.

And Raynar stronger than Sidious? Exar stronger than Yoda and Sidious? Mmmhmm, post it. I'll be glad to tear it apart. And stop this numerical and comparative stuff. Unless it states Luke is ten times stronger than so and so, don't use it.

Master Fox

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
BS. He was stated as the greatest foe the darkside had known as of his time.

1. That does not prove that he is the greatest fighter up until that point. It is probably indicating to his teachings and how he kept so many Jedi on the light side.

2. Luke came AFTER Yoda. Luke is far better then Yoda. He's over 10 times more powerful then DE Sidious (I'll provide proof lower down).

3. Exar has demonstrated a feat in the force, besides destroying a star, that takes far more power then ANYTHING Yoda or Sidious have the potential to do.

For why Luke is so much stronger then Sidious, here it is. If you remember in the DN books, Raynar controlled the collective power of 365 planets. Each of these planets was filled to the brim with Kiliks, providing at the very minimum an equal amount of energy per planet as Byss did. Raynar's power supply is 365 times larger then DE Sidious' and DE Sidious is stronger then ROTS Sidious by a large margin.

Well, I can't find the large post I had for why Exar is better then Yoda or Sidious and I'm not retyping the whole thing. I'll post it later.

When ecaxtly did Exar destroy a star?

Lightsnake

He didn't.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, sorry, it was 'EVER known'. As in Ever. As in of all time until his time. Period.

I'm calling it hyperbole then AND it still doesn't mean he was the greatest fighter then Sith had ever known.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oooh, sorry, 'strongest?' In direct reference to combat? With synonyms a 'fiercest?' Most powerful? Most implacable? Give me a break.

Prove that no other Jedi had greater fighting skills then him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Exar destroyed a star? BULLSHIT! I'm calling you out on that: When? Because he was nowhere NEAR the star and Aleema was using the ship to do it. What's Exar done exactly? Omg, he froze a senate! Great, Sidious froze a world. Next point.

I'm not saying that it is the star feat that makes him powerful. There was another one that has a large amount of proof behind it, but I can't find the thread I posted it in and it was a very long post that I am not going to retype. I'm still looking for it so I can copy paste it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Yoda is also called the greatest force of Light the galaxy had known...since Luke came after, this doesn't even apply.

Yeah, just try to back up Kun here.

I will.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Raynar stronger than Sidious?

Yes he is.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Exar stronger than Yoda and Sidious? Mmmhmm, post it. I'll be glad to tear it apart.

I'm sure you'll try and you'll fail. Still have to find the thread though.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And stop this numerical and comparative stuff. Unless it states Luke is ten times stronger than so and so, don't use it.

No. I can use numbers if I want to, so shove it.

Lightsnake

Hyperbole? Uhhh, no it's a direct statement in REGARDS TO COMBAT. And Yoda's still called the most powerful force of light that's ever lived up to that point

Prove no other Jedi has greater skills? He was the foremost fighter and master of the golden age of fighting and is declared the strongest and fiercest enemy the darkness had EVER known. Proven.

Yeah, don't use 'blew up a star', because Kun did no such thing. And that freezing thing? Exceeded. That's all Kun has going for him.

In other words: "I can use totally unsupported numbers just because I want to!"

And *Yawn* Raynar stronger than Sidious, who was channeling the entire Dark Side. try again.

And I'll fail? You're trying tos ay "The strongest foe the darkness had ever known.' is nothing but exaggeration when put in several official sources.

Darth_Glentract

Hey, it's my 7000 post!

Hyperbole? Uhhh, no it's a direct statement in REGARDS TO COMBAT. And Yoda's still called the most powerful force of light that's ever lived up to that point

Are you referring to the statement from the NEGtC? If so, then know that I have read and that I know full well that it is not specifically referring to combat.

Prove no other Jedi has greater skills? He was the foremost fighter and master of the golden age of fighting and is declared the strongest and fiercest enemy the darkness had EVER known. Proven.

Notice that "had ever known". It is not referring to those who came after him. If it was, it would say "ever knew". There is a MASSIVE difference between the two.

The foremost fighter of an age of fighting? The Jedi are AGAINST fighting, hence a Golden Age for the Jedi would be a time that had as little fighting as possible.

Yeah, don't use 'blew up a star', because Kun did no such thing. And that freezing thing? Exceeded. That's all Kun has going for him.

No it isn't. I found the post and I'll put it lower in my post.

In other words: "I can use totally unsupported numbers just because I want to!"

They are supported. If you're to blind to see that it's your problem, not mine.

And *Yawn* Raynar stronger than Sidious, who was channeling the entire Dark Side. try again.

Do you have a source for this ****?

And I'll fail? You're trying tos ay "The strongest foe the darkness had ever known.' is nothing but exaggeration when put in several official sources.

Which were?

we look at the difference between ROTJ Sidious and DE Sidious we can see pretty well what the difference is, meaning what the additional power gained from the planet did to him. Sort of at least.

The most powerful feat that we see Sidious do it in ROTS when he lifts three of the Senate Pods into the air high above his head. There is only one way to do this that I can think of. You guessed it, math and science.

BTW, rather then just labeling this pseudoscience like I know you will try to do, prove it wrong if you can.

Lets say that each Senate Pod weighs 150 metric tons. Obviously this is an extremely generous estimate, as thats far more then even a main battle tank. Lets also say that Sidious raised the pods 300 meters into the air. Again, this is extremely generous in YOU"RE favor. And then lets say that he raised the pods to the entire distance in a single second.

So, ROTS Sidious was able to move 150 metric tons with an acceleration of 300 meters per second.

Let's just plug these numbers into the formula: F = m*a

150,000 * 300 = 45,000,000 newtons of force behind that lift. That is a lot.
^The reason that it is 150,000 rather then 150 is because the kilogram is the base unit, not the metric ton.

This equates to 45,000,000 watts as well, as it was done over the course of a single second. Very impressive.

However, DE Sidious has one feat which is FAR more impressive.

Any of the following in bold is a direct quote from stardestroyer.net, which is a very reliable source. But don't take my word for it, check it out yourself.

If ISDs carry 200 Turbolasers (as suggested by blueprints), then they must average around 2.5 million terawatts of sustained firepower per cannon. Of course, there are different sized cannons, some releasing less power than this, and some more.

The common belief is that ISDs carry 60 turbolasers. This is very conservative, since 64 cannons are mounted immediately lateral to the command superstructure alone, with scores covering the rest of the hull. However, if we assume there are only 60 cannons, then they must average around 8 million terawatts of firepower each.

^ quoted from the turbolasers commentary section, under the firepower page. If you want to see all of the proof behind it, it's there.

Since 200 turbolasers appears to be the actual number for the number of turbolasers, we'll go with each turbolaser having an output of 2.5 million terrawats.

In the opening scene of AHN we see approximately 25 turbolaser blasts fired from an ISD in 5 seconds. That equates to 5 shots per second.

We see in ROTJ that the Mon Calamari cruisers were able to go 30 minutes before their shields started to fail.

Lets add the above up.

2.5 terrawatts * 5 shots per second = 12.5 terrawatts of fire taken by the shields EVERY SINGLE SECOND.

The cruisers were able to survive for 1,800 seconds before their shields started to fail. From this we can discover how much energy the shields were capable of absorbing.

12,500,000,000,000 watts * 1,800(seconds) = 2.25e+16 watts

2.25e+16 watts means 22,500,000,000,000,000 watts of energy. That is a LOT.

Now, to find out how much more powerful DE Sidious is then ROTS Sidious, we look at how much enery Sidious would have generate in the same amount of time, ASSUMING THAT SIDIOUS WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO KEEP UP THE MAXIMUM BURTS OF ENERGY FOR AN ENTIRE HALF ON WITHOUT REST!! This is extremely in YOUR favor, as the chance of Sidious being able to keep up the maximum burts of energy that we seen from him for an entire half hour is practically zero.

45,000,000watts(the amount of power Sidious produced, as calculated above) * 1,800(seconds) = 81,000,000,000 watts

Since DE Sidious destroyed a fleet with his force storms, we can calculate that how much stronger DE SIdious was then ROTS Sidious.

22,500,000,000,000,000 watts - 81,000,000,000 watts = 2.2499919e+16 watts

2.2499919e+16 = (rounded) 22,499,920,000,000,000 watts.

That is a huge difference in energy.

But wait, there's more.

22,499,920,000,000,000 watts * 375 planets = 8.43747e+18 watts

8.43747e+18 watts = 8,437,470,000,000,000 watts

Notice that the above calculations are based on the idea that DE Sidious only destroyed a single Mon Calamari Cruiser with his force storms. The actual number would be several times higher, as he took on an entire fleet of them.

Notice that I have been extremely generous in your favor throughout proving the power of 375 planets. If you can, prove me wrong. The proof is there, stardestroyer.net.

But what does the above number mean? A lot really. We just have to put it into perspective with Exar.

If we look at Exar's instakill, which you parade around as being able to blast through walls, we will so learn who was more powerful, Raynar or Exar.

Since I don't know through how much of the Temple Exar's blast went through, I am going to assume that he blasted through a rectangular prism that is 10 meters tall, 10 meters wide, and a hundred meters deep and made of iron with such force that he vaporised the entire cube.

He(Wong) states that, to cause flashes that large, the weapons must have vaporised at least one cubic meter of armor. If so, and we assume that the Death Star is made of iron; the four X-Wing cannons output approximately 60 GJ of energy.

So, we can see from this that a block of iron that is one meter long will take 60 GJ of energy to vaporize. If it is done in one second, it will equal 60 GW. If it is done in a tenth of a second it will take 600 GW.

The rectangle that I mentioned Exar blasting through with enough force to vaporise has a mass that is 10,000 times greater then a one meter long cube. 10 * 10 = 100. 100 * 100 = 10,000.

So, we take 600 GW and multiply it by 10,000 and we get 6e+15watts. If he did it very quickly, that number could easily become 6e+18 watts.

6e+18 = 6,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts

To find out which blast is more powerful the the other and by how much, we'll take Raynar's power figure and divide it by Kun's.

8,437,470,000,000,000,000 watts / 6,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts = 1.406245

This shows that Raynar had roughly 40% more power then Exar did. Don't forget that Luke overpowered Raynar.

Prove me wrong if you can.

Lightsnake

The novelization, Power of the JEdi, Clone Wars sourcebook.

And since it was the golden age of skills for the Jedi? And 'had ever known'...meaning, ever up until that point, case closed.

Meaning they're your opinion only. Try actually canon facts.

Dark Empire and SW Insider as my source. Sidious channeled the entire Dark Side, try again!

And once more: Bullshit statistics. Try again. That's really all I need to prove you wrong, considering you just change how impressive a feat is considering which character you favor.

Exar's insta kill? Mmmhmm, he so had one. He only killed an ancient, near death guy. And Sidious destroyed a fleet, nice job actually, y'know, READING. If you want to use math and science, how are there explosions in space? Is Ludo KRessh so weak he can't move a damaged ship? Why is there noise in space? Why does SW break numerous laws of motion and physics on a regular basis?

And when exar was using his OWN power and not a Sith gauntlet, get back to me

Once more: Yoda is declared the strongest until that point, period

Lightsnake

And Yoda's stated to have mastered all the powers of the lightside. Is that hyperbole too?

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The novelization, Power of the JEdi, Clone Wars sourcebook.

And since it was the golden age of skills for the Jedi? And 'had ever known'...meaning, ever up until that point, case closed.

The strongest Jedi up until that point, sure. Jedi aren't Sith.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Meaning they're your opinion only. Try actually canon facts.

Nah, they're supported.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dark Empire and SW Insider as my source. Sidious channeled the entire Dark Side, try again!

I'm not taking you BS word for it. Where in Dark Empire does it say that? What comic, what page?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And once more: Bullshit statistics. Try again. That's really all I need to prove you wrong, considering you just change how impressive a feat is considering which character you favor.

For your information, I was arguing AGAINST Exar in that thread. You can't prove my statistics wrong, or at least have failed to do so, meaning I am right.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Exar's insta kill? Mmmhmm, he so had one. He only killed an ancient, near death guy. And Sidious destroyed a fleet, nice job actually, y'know, READING. If you want to use math and science, how are there explosions in space? Is Ludo KRessh so weak he can't move a damaged ship? Why is there noise in space? Why does SW break numerous laws of motion and physics on a regular basis?

Check power levels. BTW, why do you keep making references to DE Sidious. This thread is about ROTS Sidious.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And when exar was using his OWN power and not a Sith gauntlet, get back to me

Once more: Yoda is declared the strongest until that point, period

Who cares if Exar was using a Sith gauntlet. He's not going to be fighting in the nude, so he will have it.

Strongest Jedi, not strongest period. Stop lying about quotes.

Lightsnake

Your point being? Strongest foe of the darkness up til that point...doesn't just include Jedi and puts him bounds ahead of Exar.

You can't use math that way, pal. Try again when you realize that these statistics don't exist anywhere but in your opinion.

DE appendix, in the originally published volumes, when they go on about the book of anger and the like. SW Insider and Hyperspace when they practically narrarate the big duel.

I need to prove that crap wrong? You do a fair job of it yourself.
Ok: Do these statisstics show up in anything official? No? Then they don't mean a DAMN.

And the NEC called Sidious the strongest Sith ever by ROTS with intimate knowledge of Exar. End all be all? Nope...a step in my direction if you can use those little statistics? Yep.

And Good Guys?Bad guys, Yoda knows every technique of the Jedi, has faced the dark side, is the strongest Jedi master up til that point and the strongest enemy of the Darkness as well as the strongest force of light. All this is enough to put him well above Exar.

Master Fox

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Hey, it's my 7000 post!

Hyperbole? Uhhh, no it's a direct statement in REGARDS TO COMBAT. And Yoda's still called the most powerful force of light that's ever lived up to that point

Are you referring to the statement from the NEGtC? If so, then know that I have read and that I know full well that it is not specifically referring to combat.

Prove no other Jedi has greater skills? He was the foremost fighter and master of the golden age of fighting and is declared the strongest and fiercest enemy the darkness had EVER known. Proven.

Notice that "had ever known". It is not referring to those who came after him. If it was, it would say "ever knew". There is a MASSIVE difference between the two.

The foremost fighter of an age of fighting? The Jedi are AGAINST fighting, hence a Golden Age for the Jedi would be a time that had as little fighting as possible.

Yeah, don't use 'blew up a star', because Kun did no such thing. And that freezing thing? Exceeded. That's all Kun has going for him.

No it isn't. I found the post and I'll put it lower in my post.

In other words: "I can use totally unsupported numbers just because I want to!"

They are supported. If you're to blind to see that it's your problem, not mine.

And *Yawn* Raynar stronger than Sidious, who was channeling the entire Dark Side. try again.

Do you have a source for this ****?

And I'll fail? You're trying tos ay "The strongest foe the darkness had ever known.' is nothing but exaggeration when put in several official sources.

Which were?

we look at the difference between ROTJ Sidious and DE Sidious we can see pretty well what the difference is, meaning what the additional power gained from the planet did to him. Sort of at least.

The most powerful feat that we see Sidious do it in ROTS when he lifts three of the Senate Pods into the air high above his head. There is only one way to do this that I can think of. You guessed it, math and science.

BTW, rather then just labeling this pseudoscience like I know you will try to do, prove it wrong if you can.

Lets say that each Senate Pod weighs 150 metric tons. Obviously this is an extremely generous estimate, as thats far more then even a main battle tank. Lets also say that Sidious raised the pods 300 meters into the air. Again, this is extremely generous in YOU"RE favor. And then lets say that he raised the pods to the entire distance in a single second.

So, ROTS Sidious was able to move 150 metric tons with an acceleration of 300 meters per second.

Let's just plug these numbers into the formula: F = m*a

150,000 * 300 = 45,000,000 newtons of force behind that lift. That is a lot.
^The reason that it is 150,000 rather then 150 is because the kilogram is the base unit, not the metric ton.

This equates to 45,000,000 watts as well, as it was done over the course of a single second. Very impressive.

However, DE Sidious has one feat which is FAR more impressive.

Any of the following in bold is a direct quote from stardestroyer.net, which is a very reliable source. But don't take my word for it, check it out yourself.

If ISDs carry 200 Turbolasers (as suggested by blueprints), then they must average around 2.5 million terawatts of sustained firepower per cannon. Of course, there are different sized cannons, some releasing less power than this, and some more.

The common belief is that ISDs carry 60 turbolasers. This is very conservative, since 64 cannons are mounted immediately lateral to the command superstructure alone, with scores covering the rest of the hull. However, if we assume there are only 60 cannons, then they must average around 8 million terawatts of firepower each.

^ quoted from the turbolasers commentary section, under the firepower page. If you want to see all of the proof behind it, it's there.

Since 200 turbolasers appears to be the actual number for the number of turbolasers, we'll go with each turbolaser having an output of 2.5 million terrawats.

In the opening scene of AHN we see approximately 25 turbolaser blasts fired from an ISD in 5 seconds. That equates to 5 shots per second.

We see in ROTJ that the Mon Calamari cruisers were able to go 30 minutes before their shields started to fail.

Lets add the above up.

2.5 terrawatts * 5 shots per second = 12.5 terrawatts of fire taken by the shields EVERY SINGLE SECOND.

The cruisers were able to survive for 1,800 seconds before their shields started to fail. From this we can discover how much energy the shields were capable of absorbing.

12,500,000,000,000 watts * 1,800(seconds) = 2.25e+16 watts

2.25e+16 watts means 22,500,000,000,000,000 watts of energy. That is a LOT.

Now, to find out how much more powerful DE Sidious is then ROTS Sidious, we look at how much enery Sidious would have generate in the same amount of time, ASSUMING THAT SIDIOUS WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO KEEP UP THE MAXIMUM BURTS OF ENERGY FOR AN ENTIRE HALF ON WITHOUT REST!! This is extremely in YOUR favor, as the chance of Sidious being able to keep up the maximum burts of energy that we seen from him for an entire half hour is practically zero.

45,000,000watts(the amount of power Sidious produced, as calculated above) * 1,800(seconds) = 81,000,000,000 watts

Since DE Sidious destroyed a fleet with his force storms, we can calculate that how much stronger DE SIdious was then ROTS Sidious.

22,500,000,000,000,000 watts - 81,000,000,000 watts = 2.2499919e+16 watts

2.2499919e+16 = (rounded) 22,499,920,000,000,000 watts.

That is a huge difference in energy.

But wait, there's more.

22,499,920,000,000,000 watts * 375 planets = 8.43747e+18 watts

8.43747e+18 watts = 8,437,470,000,000,000 watts

Notice that the above calculations are based on the idea that DE Sidious only destroyed a single Mon Calamari Cruiser with his force storms. The actual number would be several times higher, as he took on an entire fleet of them.

Notice that I have been extremely generous in your favor throughout proving the power of 375 planets. If you can, prove me wrong. The proof is there, stardestroyer.net.

But what does the above number mean? A lot really. We just have to put it into perspective with Exar.

If we look at Exar's instakill, which you parade around as being able to blast through walls, we will so learn who was more powerful, Raynar or Exar.

Since I don't know through how much of the Temple Exar's blast went through, I am going to assume that he blasted through a rectangular prism that is 10 meters tall, 10 meters wide, and a hundred meters deep and made of iron with such force that he vaporised the entire cube.

He(Wong) states that, to cause flashes that large, the weapons must have vaporised at least one cubic meter of armor. If so, and we assume that the Death Star is made of iron; the four X-Wing cannons output approximately 60 GJ of energy.

So, we can see from this that a block of iron that is one meter long will take 60 GJ of energy to vaporize. If it is done in one second, it will equal 60 GW. If it is done in a tenth of a second it will take 600 GW.

The rectangle that I mentioned Exar blasting through with enough force to vaporise has a mass that is 10,000 times greater then a one meter long cube. 10 * 10 = 100. 100 * 100 = 10,000.

So, we take 600 GW and multiply it by 10,000 and we get 6e+15watts. If he did it very quickly, that number could easily become 6e+18 watts.

6e+18 = 6,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts

To find out which blast is more powerful the the other and by how much, we'll take Raynar's power figure and divide it by Kun's.

8,437,470,000,000,000,000 watts / 6,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts = 1.406245

This shows that Raynar had roughly 40% more power then Exar did. Don't forget that Luke overpowered Raynar.

Prove me wrong if you can.

Glentract not that I'm trying to be a dick but how do you think the term 'Glentract math' originated.

Swirly Girl

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And the NEC called Sidious the strongest Sith ever by ROTS

Erm, did you miss the email that Dan sent in response to a EoD member, here?. It effectively makes that line nothing but a point of view.

Erm, more hyperbole?

WTF? This line barely makes sense. Are you just making more things up, Lightsnake?

More unsubstantiated hyperbole

More nonsensical, unsubstantiatable hyperbole.

Erm, more hyperbole.

No, we've got nothing more than your idle conjecture and nonsensical hyperbolic statements that border on delusional.

-

Seriously, WTF Lightsnake? This is just a complete crock of shit. It's crap, quite frankly; even by your standards.

http://img.tapuz.co.il/forums/17673325.jpg

Master Fox

Hey Traya why don't you present an argument for Exar?

Jonathan Mark

I'm surprised she didn't notice Glentract's mathematical nightmare...

Swirly Girl

Erm, don't be so presumptuous about who I support. I'm merely pointing out the nonsense that LS spouted.

Swirly Girl

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
I'm surprised she didn't notice Glentract's mathematical nightmare...

I noticed it.

Escape81

Not even going to touch this one.

Escape81

Though, I will say that I'm not even going to pretend that I have the mathmatical comprehension or capabilities to even begin translating that jargon, Glentract, you've been throwing that stuff out in your debates since as long as I've been here. I suppose because I lack the skill to even begin understanding, I've never really appreciated it, nor have I considered it proof at all.

But, you and Lightsnake both have a problem. Of dismissing things as "hyperbole". Exaggeration really isn't something that a 'source book' or a 'guide' would use, now would it, since it is there to provide 'fact'.

Because certain articles of information and sources state things that neither of you like, you dismiss it as hyperbole. Stop it. It's incredibly immature, and shows that you really have no form of countering each other's argument except to attempt to 'dismiss' the statements of other sources.

It's come to this, has it?

Admiral Akbar

Sadly, it has. Although Glen had a good post, and made his point.

Escape81

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Sadly, it has. Although Glen had a good post, and made his point.

I consider Glentract and Lightsnake to be exceptional debators. As I said, I lack the mathmatical skills to comprehend Glentract's 'facts'. But that doesn't mean that they aren't true. So what? Glentract's a fine debator.

People dislike Lightsnake because he blasphemes the anti-Sidious environment. So screw the people who just dislike his opinion.

My problem is that this has become completely immature.

Motoko Sama

Then tell me how he wasn't trying as hard as Kun. Because Kun initially wanted to recruit Vodo - hell, he was talking to him about it for the entire match up until he unleashed his double-bladed lightsaber. You call me bias? LOL. Shut up, noob and back up the claim.

Kun was trying to recruit Vodo, you dolt. I thought as much was obvious:

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/1337/kunrecuit3aa.th.jpg

The "join me" on the page before, and trying to turn Vodo to Kun's cause is the exact same thing Vodo was doing - so to say Kun was giving it his all is nonsensical bullshit - which seems to be all of what you spew anyways.

Now, I've backed up my claims of why Kun wasn't even giving it his all, and was doing the same as Vodo. Didn't you notice Kun easily cleaved Vodo in-half once he "turned on the juice"? Similiar to Vader and Luke's duel during ESB. As I've said you are nothing but ridiculous, and can't offer anything valid to an argument besides unsupported, and quite frankly absurd, assumptions. I provide scans, logical arguments, and the like - can't say the same for you though.

Kun was toying with him - and the comic shows as much. Vodo and Kun exchange words, once Kun realizes he can't turn Vodo, he ignites the other side of the saber, and cleaves Vodo in HALF with ONE SIDE. You are so crazy, seriously. You downplay to the end, even when I show scans, and logical arguments - to call me a "fangirl" is laughable. I could say the same for you, but more or less you're just ignorant.

Oh, and also - Kun was STILL telling him to join him AFTER he ignites the other end of the saber, THAT much tells me he was toying with him:

http://img432.imageshack.us/img432/7531/vodokunduel2tg.th.jpg

Your rebuttal? I expect nothing more from you than:

"Etc, etc, etc, etc - B1AS!!//1ELEVENz0mg!!!! LUK3 pwn5 A1L/ glauifgudsav."

Seems all you do is just that, no logical arguments - just ridiculous claims, and when I refute them properly - as said - you say "z0mg bias!!//!".

Sorry, no one asked you, troll. And tell me - how is it bias? Because I go based off the comic, logic and you go based off...well, nothing.

Then what the f*ck is destroying his stick? That is outdueling him, he broke through his defense - his defense was the stick.

Considering the Dark side makes you stronger as we all know from watching the movies, reading the books, hearing from Lucas. Oh, and considering when he dueled Vodo the first time:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/4594/padawankun7fl.th.jpg

That happened when he wasn't a master of the Darkside, hadn't gain vast amounts of knowledge - and yes, knowledge turns into power in Star Wars, and his first duel with Vodo as a padawan, he wasn't even a master lightsaber duelist - now he is:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9044/ulickunmasters1qu.th.jpg

Anymore laughable assertions, child?

Really, so the omniscient narrator is wrong? You said it had a "weakness", I didn't see any mention of this crap. Furthermore, the second time they met he broke the stick in-half with one side, showing the mere strength of Exar Kun.

Irrelevant.

If you aren't going to refute it, there is no room to keep making the claim. That's obvious in even a Star Wars debate.

Why didn't Sidious use one of his instakills on Luke? Why didn't Dooku use Force lightning at every turn? Why didn't so and so use this power on him or her? Why didn't Nomi strip everybody of the Force? Why didn't Kreia use her instakill at every chance? Thought so, I'll treat your points as defeated until you come up with something, or at least refute my damn argument.

Simply no. I've argued a complete post, you argue one thing - and in which Ulic did the same without any prior knowledge like Kun. If you read my post, refute it, and it's all correct - I'd stop suggesting it, however, since you:

1.) Refuse to do such.
2.) Keep calling me a "fanboy" (what pisses me off the most because I'm a female for one, and two you argue bullsh*t).
3.) Can't come up with logical arguments.
4.) Can't refute logical arguments.
5.) Are ridiculous.

I'll take it as you cannot come up with an argument against it, since the only thing you say is "Aleem4 bl4st = fin4l product", which I've already address. And, that list I made - that isn't fanboyism on your part, it's plain ignorance and stupidity.

Wrongly banned? You didn't accept your ban, come back with mutliple usernames a la Numan, and continue to post constant bullsh*t. And once it's rebutted, you say "bias!!!//!eleven z0mg fanboy!!!1/!".

You're annoying, stay banned or if you continue to come back with multiple usernames...

REFUTE ARGUMENTS LOGICALLY AND WITH PROOF, TROLL.

That is all.

Razielim

I was under the impression that "The Darkness" in this case was describing Bane's New Order, the only Sith Order that could best the Jedi. Yoda being the greatest enemy of this darkness could mean he was the greatest Jedi in 1000 years.

Anyways, it IS debatable that Yoda is the greatest Jedi of all time. Hoth, Vodo, Revan are great too, but this quote, depending on the context, seals the deal. It's written in EU.

The foremost fighter of an age of fighting? The Jedi are AGAINST fighting, hence a Golden Age for the Jedi

This quote was in regards to combat ability.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Oh yeah, great argument Nai.

Thought so...

I was talking about melee combat skills. The point is to counter this argument you have to assume that Yoda is as powerful or more powerful than Vodo in terms of melee combat.

Lmao. Lucas said it was a stalemate but considering the fact that Yoda always had the weaker position and still managed to overcome Sidious (in both lightsaber and force fights) it's pretty clear that he is superior to Sidious on equal ground.

Let me think. Kun was a lightsaber prodigy and this is clearly not true for Sidious. He had his ass handed to Mace in a lightsaber duel, Yoda possibly disarmed him and Luke who didn't have that much saber combat training / experience by DE was able to outduel him.

So you really want to tell me that somebody who got his ass handed to a Luke by DE who nearly hadn't any training with that weapon at this point (except his combat action) would be able to outduel the guy who did destroy one of the best - if not the best - Jedi combatant of his era ?

Oh DN Luke is just powerful enough to withstand a force attack powered by the combined force potential of the entire Killik hive which contained 375 worlds at this point. And remember that we are talking about ROTS Sidious here - not about DE Sidious. What exactly would ROTS Sidious do against DN Luke ? Try to force lightning him ? Try to throw pods at him ? He has no chance and his equal Yoda doesn't have either.

Master Fox

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Then tell me how he wasn't trying as hard as Kun. Because Kun initially wanted to recruit Vodo - hell, he was talking to him about it for the entire match up until he unleashed his double-bladed lightsaber. You call me bias? LOL. Shut up, noob and back up the claim.

Kun was trying to recruit Vodo, you dolt. I thought as much was obvious:

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/1337/kunrecuit3aa.th.jpg

The "join me" on the page before, and trying to turn Vodo to Kun's cause is the exact same thing Vodo was doing - so to say Kun was giving it his all is nonsensical bullshit - which seems to be all of what you spew anyways.

Now, I've backed up my claims of why Kun wasn't even giving it his all, and was doing the same as Vodo. Didn't you notice Kun easily cleaved Vodo in-half once he "turned on the juice"? Similiar to Vader and Luke's duel during ESB. As I've said you are nothing but ridiculous, and can't offer anything valid to an argument besides unsupported, and quite frankly absurd, assumptions. I provide scans, logical arguments, and the like - can't say the same for you though.

Kun was toying with him - and the comic shows as much. Vodo and Kun exchange words, once Kun realizes he can't turn Vodo, he ignites the other side of the saber, and cleaves Vodo in HALF with ONE SIDE. You are so crazy, seriously. You downplay to the end, even when I show scans, and logical arguments - to call me a "fangirl" is laughable. I could say the same for you, but more or less you're just ignorant.

Oh, and also - Kun was STILL telling him to join him AFTER he ignites the other end of the saber, THAT much tells me he was toying with him:

http://img432.imageshack.us/img432/7531/vodokunduel2tg.th.jpg

Your rebuttal? I expect nothing more from you than:

"Etc, etc, etc, etc - B1AS!!//1ELEVENz0mg!!!! LUK3 pwn5 A1L/ glauifgudsav."

Seems all you do is just that, no logical arguments - just ridiculous claims, and when I refute them properly - as said - you say "z0mg bias!!//!".

Sorry, no one asked you, troll. And tell me - how is it bias? Because I go based off the comic, logic and you go based off...well, nothing.

Then what the f*ck is destroying his stick? That is outdueling him, he broke through his defense - his defense was the stick.

Considering the Dark side makes you stronger as we all know from watching the movies, reading the books, hearing from Lucas. Oh, and considering when he dueled Vodo the first time:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/4594/padawankun7fl.th.jpg

That happened when he wasn't a master of the Darkside, hadn't gain vast amounts of knowledge - and yes, knowledge turns into power in Star Wars, and his first duel with Vodo as a padawan, he wasn't even a master lightsaber duelist - now he is:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9044/ulickunmasters1qu.th.jpg

Anymore laughable assertions, child?

Really, so the omniscient narrator is wrong? You said it had a "weakness", I didn't see any mention of this crap. Furthermore, the second time they met he broke the stick in-half with one side, showing the mere strength of Exar Kun.

Irrelevant.

If you aren't going to refute it, there is no room to keep making the claim. That's obvious in even a Star Wars debate.

Why didn't Sidious use one of his instakills on Luke? Why didn't Dooku use Force lightning at every turn? Why didn't so and so use this power on him or her? Why didn't Nomi strip everybody of the Force? Why didn't Kreia use her instakill at every chance? Thought so, I'll treat your points as defeated until you come up with something, or at least refute my damn argument.

Simply no. I've argued a complete post, you argue one thing - and in which Ulic did the same without any prior knowledge like Kun. If you read my post, refute it, and it's all correct - I'd stop suggesting it, however, since you:

1.) Refuse to do such.
2.) Keep calling me a "fanboy" (what pisses me off the most because I'm a female for one, and two you argue bullsh*t).
3.) Can't come up with logical arguments.
4.) Can't refute logical arguments.
5.) Are ridiculous.

I'll take it as you cannot come up with an argument against it, since the only thing you say is "Aleem4 bl4st = fin4l product", which I've already address. And, that list I made - that isn't fanboyism on your part, it's plain ignorance and stupidity.

Wrongly banned? You didn't accept your ban, come back with mutliple usernames a la Numan, and continue to post constant bullsh*t. And once it's rebutted, you say "bias!!!//!eleven z0mg fanboy!!!1/!".

You're annoying, stay banned or if you continue to come back with multiple usernames...

REFUTE ARGUMENTS LOGICALLY AND WITH PROOF, TROLL.

That is all.

The fact that you resort to such petty insults shows how much of a troll you are and how weak your argument is.

Lightsnake

Ok, direct statements by source material and novels is 'hyperbole?' No, sorry, all those are are facts. The facts say that is what Yoda is, I buy it. What's hyperbole ABOUT it? It's clear cut statements, so if you pull this hyperbole bullshit, explain why the official sources and writers are wrong, tell me how 'Yoda was the strongest' is an exagerration besides going against your opinion.

Though, Sidious is an exceptional duelist...Mace was one of the best fighters the Order ever produced, and he took out three more of the best in seconds. And Luke was described as having exceptional power, in the force and with a saber. And what's backing up Vodo's combatanant status exactly? We only ever saw him...fight Kun twice? Anything else?

Razielim

But Kolar, Fisto and Tiin were all considered some of the greatest Jedi duelists of that time period.

e.l,m,t,i,(r k)

Since everybody here worships Luke and Exar Kun Invented double bladed saber they rape them casually

Lightsnake

Yes, indeed they were

Admiral Akbar

Originally posted by Escape81
I consider Glentract and Lightsnake to be exceptional debators. As I said, I lack the mathmatical skills to comprehend Glentract's 'facts'. But that doesn't mean that they aren't true. So what? Glentract's a fine debator.

People dislike Lightsnake because he blasphemes the anti-Sidious environment. So screw the people who just dislike his opinion.

My problem is that this has become completely immature.

I agree.

Escape81

People need to chill with the insults. But, some people can't present an argument without the phrase: "STFU n00b!" or posting some stupid picture with that statement on it.

Only truly skilled debators can present their arguments without insulting someone else. Insults prove that they have limited patience, and that they are narrow-minded. People who are narrow-minded shouldn't be debators. They defy logic, that way.

e.l,m,t,i,(r k)

Originally posted by Escape81
People need to chill with the insults. But, some people can't present an argument without the phrase: "STFU n00b!" or posting some stupid picture with that statement on it.

Only truly skilled debators can present their arguments without insulting someone else. Insults prove that they have limited patience, and that they are narrow-minded. People who are narrow-minded shouldn't be debators. They defy logic, that way. who gives a shit evil face

Motoko Sama

Originally posted by Master Fox
The fact that you resort to such petty insults shows how much of a troll you are and how weak your argument is.

I don't have to resort to insults as you can see my arguments are not weakened by taking them out. My arguments are backed by logic, scans, and everything between.

Weak? Yeah right, maybe in an alternate universe. If I throw around a name or two, so be it as long as I back up what I'm saying, which I do.

The fact all you can say is "bias!!/ fangirl!!/!!!eleven z0mg insultooor!!!" shows that you cannot refute anything logically.

A "troll" though? LOL. Did I get banned? No, that's Fox. Do I come back with multiple usernames? No, that's Fox. Do I constantly come up with nothing to back up my arguments? No, that's Fox.

e.l,m,t,i,(r k)

the empire wins

Escape81

Originally posted by e.l,m,t,i,(r k)
who gives a shit evil face

I do. People use the Internet as a method of being obnoxious. It's pathetic.

Master Fox

"Then tell me how he wasn't trying as hard as Kun. Because Kun initially wanted to recruit Vodo - hell, he was talking to him about it for the entire match up until he unleashed his double-bladed lightsaber. You call me bias? LOL. Shut up, noob and back up the claim.
Kun was trying to recruit Vodo, you dolt. I thought as much was obvious"

Kun was not trying to convert Vodo. It was all banter. Kun would never think that Vodo would turn to the darkside. To even think that Kun wasn't trying as hard as Vodo is completely ridiculous. The jedi trying harder then the sith? Are you mad? You also forgot to include the bit where Vodo wanted to turn Kun back to the light, and he was at least true to his word. And how do you not understand that one cannot battle to the best of their abilities while restraining from killing them. That's obvious and anyone would be able to understand it, except you it seems. And please don't call me a noob troll.

"Now, I've backed up my claims of why Kun wasn't even giving it his all, and was doing the same as Vodo. Didn't you notice Kun easily cleaved Vodo in-half once he "turned on the juice"? Similar to Vader and Luke's duel during ESB. As I've said you are nothing but ridiculous, and can't offer anything valid to an argument besides unsupported, and quite frankly absurd, assumptions. I provide scans, logical arguments, and the like - can't say the same for you though."

And I haven't backed up my claims? Wow just wow. So because I don't supply scans, I suck at debating? And your 'logical' arguments have so far only been complete bs.

"Kun was toying with him - and the comic shows as much. Vodo and Kun exchange words, once Kun realizes he can't turn Vodo, he ignites the other side of the saber, and cleaves Vodo in HALF with ONE SIDE. You are so crazy, seriously. You downplay to the end, even when I show scans, and logical arguments - to call me a "fangirl" is laughable. I could say the same for you, but more or less you're just ignorant.
Oh, and also - Kun was STILL telling him to join him AFTER he ignites the other end of the saber, THAT much tells me he was toying with him"

Again, that is your biased crappy interpretation of the comic. I see Vodo blocking everything that Kun throws at him. I see calmness on Vodo's face and frustration on Kun's. However I am not as much of a fanboy as to try to establish my opinion as fact, unlike you it seems. And it also looks like you're contradicting your previous point here. make up your mind. Was Kun toying with Vodo or being serious when asking Vodo to koin him?

"Then what the f*ck is destroying his stick? That is outdueling him, he broke through his defense - his defense was the stick."

You miss my point. Kun did not outduel Vodo. He won not because he dueled better, but because his lightsaber was able to break through Vodo's saber. That is not a testament to Kun's skill. All that says is that Kun's saber > then Vodo's stick. Vodo was at a disadvantage due to his weapon. How can you not undertand that? I love how people can recognise that Sidious beating Yoda in their final force battle says nothing about Sidious' superiority to Yoda because Yoda only fell because he was lighter, yet they can't even recognise that Kun slaying Yoda was not a testament to his skill because Vodo was at a disadvantage with his STICK.

"Considering the Dark side makes you stronger as we all know from watching the movies, reading the books, hearing from Lucas. Oh, and considering when he dueled Vodo the first time"

Tapping into the darkside can make you stronger as you do not hold back like most jedi, however it can also make you complacent and foolish, however that is not important. You seem to be missing the crucial point that while tapping into the dark side can grant you added strengths and advantages to your power, you do NOT grow stronger with your dueling ability as you grow stronger in the dark side.

"Really, so the omniscient narrator is wrong? You said it had a "weakness", I didn't see any mention of this crap. Furthermore, the second time they met he broke the stick in-half with one side, showing the mere strength of Exar Kun."

I'll admit that it does say a lot about Exar's strength, however you seem to fail to realise that the quote was definitely invalid as Vodo's stick has been shown to be weaker then a lightsaber on 2 occasions (when Kun penetrates it with his saber staff, and while dueling with two sabers). Plus have you ever heard of free indirect discourse. Look it up. it is when an omniscient narrator indirectly voices one of his character's opinions or feelings, so by saying that the quote is wrong, I am in no way saying that the narrator was wrong.

"If you aren't going to refute it, there is no room to keep making the claim. That's obvious in even a Star Wars debate."

You again miss my point. I am not going to refute it because it is logical. However the writer seems to have disregarded that logic as we see Kun use the amulet blast, and it is simple and ineffective. There would have been no reason for Kun to hold back on trying his hardest to destroy both Ulic and Aleema. He even said, "I must kill them at all cost", or something along those lines. It is also the only time that we see his amulet blast go up against a force user, and taking into consideration that he knew he had to kill them at all cost, it is ridiculous to assume that the attack was different or that he could have produced something more spectacular.

Now I'm done with this debate seeing as you are trying to turn it into a bashfest so please, in the future, when your argument is weak and basically sucks, don't try to hide it by trolling and giving petty insults.

Master Fox

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
I don't have to resort to insults as you can see my arguments are not weakened by taking them out. My arguments are backed by logic, scans, and everything between.

Weak? Yeah right, maybe in an alternate universe. If I throw around a name or two, so be it as long as I back up what I'm saying, which I do.

The fact all you can say is "bias!!/ fangirl!!/!!!eleven z0mg insultooor!!!" shows that you cannot refute anything logically.

A "troll" though? LOL. Did I get banned? No, that's Fox. Do I come back with multiple usernames? No, that's Fox. Do I constantly come up with nothing to back up my arguments? No, that's Fox.

I am not disputing the fact that your arguments are logical and that you have debated well, however my argument is stronger imo and I don't need to resort to selective quoting and insults to show people.

And please explain how getting wrongly banned, and coming back with multiple accounts because I felt unfairly treated make me a troll.

Admiral Akbar

Damn..great finish Fox.

Master Fox

Cool thanks. Oh and Mosoko we can forget about this bashing and call it a truce and get back to the debate if you want.

Motoko Sama

Really?

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/6185/vodokunduel3uw.th.jpg

Really?

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/695/kunrecuit6oo.th.jpg

He says it continuously throughout the fight. Is that not indication enough? I could agree if Exar only pressed the matter once, but the fact he did it several times clearly shows me something else.

And Vodo would think Kun would turn to back to the Light? I highly doubt it considering all of what Exar had done.

If anything then, they were even to think Kun was trying harder is completely ridiculous - seeing as when he ignites the other end of his saber, grins, and slices Vodo in half with complete ease.

And you know Kun wasn't how exactly? Ah yes, where the comic shows Kun constantly saying things to get Vodo to turn back.

And how do you not understand that Kun was trying to recruit Vodo? That's obvious as he repeats it relentlessly.

Really?

Contradicting yourself? Thought so. You don't refute my claims about the amulet blast, and even so much say that you refuse to do such just because you so strongly believe the opposite. That is the extent of your assertions.

Except for the fact you're forgetting the stick was his defense, he broke the stick - breaking his defense. The fact that he can break a stick with ONE SIDE of his lightsaber against a stick MORE POWERFUL than his lightsaber is a testament not only to his skill, but his sheer strength. As well considering he lifts the Chancellor up with one hand, even more testament to his strength.

You do gain power however. Perhaps you didn't notice the change Anakin made in ROTS? He is far superior as a Darksider. The Darkside allows you to use your emotions, and if you can efficiently do such, your skill will be considerably better. Example? Dooku and Anakin. It turns to power, which in turns helps in a duel.

Not to mention, Kun is now a master lightsaber duelist - whereas he wasn't when he first dueled Vodo. His skill has increased either way.

It's more powerful than Exar Kun's saber, not Exar Kun and Crado's sabers put together with full force. Now, the second time they duel, refresh me - what happens? Kun cleaves Vodo in two with ONE SIDE.

Again, I've address every one of those points.

Really?

Contradicting yourself again?

Wrongly banned? You were banned first temp. as BLAK FOX (yeah wrongly banned right?), then banned permanently for coming back as a sock (wrongly banned, eh?), then banned again for coming back with a different username, then coming back again. Get the point already! And you often make quite absurd assumptions when I provide the scans right in your face.

I don't know any "Mosoko's".

Master Fox

Firstly Mokoto, quite a few of those quotes are linked and make up one point so you can not simply answer them seperately.

e.l,m,t,i,(r k)

Originally posted by Escape81
I do. People use the Internet as a method of being obnoxious. It's pathetic. supertard talks again

Motoko Sama

Originally posted by Master Fox
Firstly Mokoto, quite a few of those quotes are linked and make up one point so you can not simply answer them seperately.

Yeah, and the points are all the same:

-Vodo wasn't trying as hard as Kun.
-Kun wasn't trying to turn Vodo.
-How does the Darkside make you more proficient in dueling?
-Blah, and blah

Anyways, yes I do suppose we can drop the insults, I do apologize for that, my patience isn't at the top of the list. Which is still no excuse, but meh. We'll have to continue this later, I'm going out for the night.

Master Fox

Ok cool let's do that. How about we stop this debate anyway. We're just repeating the same points over and over again and there's no point in doing that.

Lightsnake

Btw, Sama, who're those two in your sig?

e.l,m,t,i,(r k)

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Yeah, and the points are all the same:

-Vodo wasn't trying as hard as Kun.
-Kun wasn't trying to turn Vodo.
-How does the Darkside make you more proficient in dueling?
-Blah, and blah

Anyways, yes I do suppose we can drop the insults, I do apologize for that, my patience isn't at the top of the list. Which is still no excuse, but meh. We'll have to continue this later, I'm going out for the night. wrong
wrong
wrong and wrong again

Lightsnake

Big boys are talking, hush

Captain REX

Originally posted by e.l,m,t,i,(r k)
wrong
wrong
wrong and wrong again

Supply reasons, or be quiet.

Null ARC Avis

motoka, your sig is quite retarded, no offence. I liked your old one.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ok, direct statements by source material and novels is 'hyperbole?'

Phew...
Statements in novels if not placed by the omnicient narrator can very well be hyperboles and as you fail to provide quotes and context I don't see why we should take them serious.

He might be the strongest up to that point (ROTS). The point is that you don't have anything to compare Yoda to Vodo or Odan. He was stronger ? How much stronger ?
All we know is that there wasn't a single Jedi able to stop Kun despite of the fact that the most powerful people in the TOTJ era tried. Even if Yoda is more powerful then them - and even if he's the better combatant (and there is a difference between those points) - how does that proof that he can defeat Kun ? It only says that he does have a better chance then the people Kun destroyed. Would he defeat Kun in a duel ? It's possible but I'm far away from saying that Yoda win this for sure. And if ROTS Yoda can't do it then ROTS Sidious can't either which doesn't even matter because Luke can tool his opponent faster then the other one would be able to deal with Kun (if they can do it)...

Lmao. Since when ? Everytime I saw him drawing his lightsaber he lost the fight. That's hardly being an "exceptional duellist". How would you call somebody who loses two out of two matches - if you add DE he lost 3 out of 4. Man. What an exceptional duelist.
What is it you want to base that statement on - the fact that he jumped 4 Jedi who didn't have any space to manouver and killed 3 of them while the last one put him on his ass ?

Or do you want to tell me know that Luke in less then 10 years of training had developed a greater lightsaber skill then Mace Windu - the greatest lightsaber prodigy ever - could do in 50 years ?

Again: More powerful and better with a lightsaber compared to Mace Windu ? You must be joking. We have seen that even 25 years of training difference make the guy with the highest potential ever seen (Anakin) equal to Obi-Wan (who was nearly sorted out of the temple because of his lacking force potential). Yet they stalemated in their force contest. So even if Luke has a greater force potential then Mace - the training time difference would enable Mace to defeat Luke (in his DE version).
And if Sidious isn't still better than that - how would he be able to defeat another lightsaber prodigy with more actual training than Luke did receive, more duell experience and greater force powers - not to mention the amulet blasts...? We're still talking about ROTS Sidious here

His age, his experience, the students he trained and his weapon of choice. If you don't have exceptional combat skills - would you go and confront people who are known for their combat skills and armed with lightsabers using a stick ? Do you really think the guy who seems to be superior to anybody else running arround in the comics when it comes to melee combat (including Ulic, Nomi and their comrades - when Ulic and Nomi are clearly prodigies on their own) with Kun being the only exception doesn't have any combat skills ?

Lightsnake

They are by an omniscient narrarator in all cases.

And Yoda, being far more willing to kill Kun, far faster and as a whole just plain better than the above, by virtue of aforementioned quotes in novel and sourcebook, all aforementioned by narrarator as well as by virtue of knowing the strongest techniques of the Jedi...and KJA did quite a bad job of making his Jedi 'powerful' since Odan was nothing but ineffective and Vodo? Arca? Yeah, just one quote from a sourcebook put Yoda leaps and bounds above the both of them, especially as unlike them, we know Yoda's triumps over darkness were described as 'legion'

In Insider, it was said, in story context, that Sidious was perhaps one of the greatest duelists who ever lived and he killed three of the best Jedi duelists who ever lived in seconds, on an article in saber combat. And Maul's description of him in Shadow Hunter?

And yeah, Luke's skill by DE? Already beyond that of what most Jedi surpass.

And once again, you backpedal: Age, experience? Means little. As we've seen proven time and time again. When we see the PT Jedi bring down star ships and war machines with the Force alone, or exterminate one of the best black ops teams in the galaxy with a single saber throw, as well as Luke's saber skills being described as by that point incredible and exceptional and him having become a master duelist seemingly on his own, when there's a good amount of evidence to suggest that Anakin could indeed have beaten Mace?

Oh, Vodo's 'age' means something? Ood was older. His experience means a thing? T'ra Saa could own him then. And Vodo, by his own admission didn't want to hurt or fight Kun, so fighting with a stick is a bit counterproductive. And he 'seems' superior to those guys? Since when? When did Vodo do anything except lose to Kun in duels? And as for those 'fifty plus years of experience', we've seen kids with several years or even weeks worth of training beat people like Shadowspawn or Jerec.

Escape81

I have to agree with Nai that I do not see Yoda or Sidious being able to win this fight. I don't see them having a true chance.

However, Nai, I do grow tired of the excuse that 'Sidious jumped the four Jedi attempting to kill him'. Don't feed me that crap. They entered the building armed with the knowledge that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, and that he would most likely attack them. Palpatine stood up, ignited his weapon, and even tossed off a one liner:

"So it's treason then."

Then, he jumped.

I'm really tired of you and everyone else who says "Oh Em Gee, he just surprised them!!!11".

No, he was just better.

Lightsnake

Yoda and Sidious don't have a chance, but I'm saying if it were just Kun, the fight'd be over. DN Luke is about the most overpowered person in all of SW.

And yeah, Agen, Saesee and Kit've all been surprised before, they're veteran warriors, outright stated to be four of the best duelists the Jedi order had ever produced and were facing Palp, sabers drawn...even if they were 'surprised', it shows Palp is better

Admiral Akbar

Dident Palaptine use a force scream of some sort? And catch them offguard?

Escape81

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Dident Palaptine use a force scream of some sort? And catch them offguard?

Um . . .

They entered Palpatine's office. Mace and Palpatine engage in short conversation.
Mace says: You're under arrest.
Palpatine says: I am the Senate.
Mace says: Not yet.

Palpatine then 'stands up' and looks at them. Then, he twists his wrist, and out pops a lightsaber hilt. He ignites the blade and says:

"So it's treason, then".

Then, he screams and flies into the air.

Knowing that they were 'aware' that he was a Sith Lord, and how he took his time, that proves that they were NOT caught off guard or surprised.

Admiral Akbar

Well, his force scream could have confused them or shut down their focus/concentration for a few seconds. I dont know what force scream does exactly, but thats my assumprion.

Yes, but i'm not sure the jedi "knew" he was going to lunge foward and scream. And I believe one of the jedi were using telepathy and trying to figure out what palpatine was going to attempt but could not find out because the dark side clouded it. I cant remember where I read this..

General Kon-El

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What have you been smoking? Sidious and Yoda get pwned. he was just kidding.

Escape81

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Well, his force scream could have confused them or shut down their focus/concentration for a few seconds. I dont know what force scream does exactly, but thats my assumprion.

Yes, but i'm not sure the jedi "knew" he was going to lunge foward and scream. And I believe one of the jedi were using telepathy and trying to figure out what palpatine was going to attempt but could not find out because the dark side clouded it. I cant remember where I read this..

You read it in the novelization.

The point is, the Jedi were prepared to face Sidious. They knew his identity, they outnumbered him, they knew he might attack, and he ignited his weapon and attacked several seconds later.

Not being able to predict his exact move isn't a show of being caught off guard. If that is the case, then 'all' duels have parts where one of the combatants is caught off guard. That means:

- Anakin caught Count Dooku off guard when he decapitated him.
- Obi-Wan caught Grievous off guard when he disarmed him.
- Yoda caught the stormtroopers off guard when he fought them.
- Obi-Wan caught Anakin off guard when he de-limbed him.

The point is - they knew that Sidious was going to attack them. The reason that Agen, Tinn, and Fisto were beaten is a simple one. Sidious was the better fighter.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
They are by an omniscient narrarator in all cases.

Omniscient like the historian writing the NEC ?

How did Yoda exactly "triumph" over the Dark Side ? As far as we know (now) he didn't fight Sith for 1,000 years, maybe Dark Jedi but he would be superior to them per definitionem as he was the strongest force user and best duellist during his lifetime. So what "triumps" are you talking about ? Something that comes close to Odan who stipped Sith Lords from the force ? Or Thon who survived a female Sith exterminating the life on an entire planet ? Or Ood Bnar who could use the force energy of a planet to survive a supernova ?

The point is: Yoda might be better then them but I doubt he's far above them since they all had a quite nice amount of time to study the force and practice combat (in Odan's and Odd's case even more time then Yoda had).

Since when is the Insider a canon source, hmm ? I will explain the "he killed three Jedi thing" later.

Logic anybody ?

Anakin could have beaten Mace ? Hahaha. He wasn't able to beat Kenobi. He wasn't able to beat Sidious by ROTS which he basically acknowledges himself. So how would he have been able to beat Mace Windu ? And I know that Luke is a prodigy in terms of saber combat...more than Mace Windu who developed his own style in the age of 13 and practiced it for almost 4 decades ? Did you read Shatterpoint ? Did you watch the movies ? Did you see the CW Cartoons ? Mace is pretty much uber when it comes to combat situations.

Lmao. Vodo didn't want to fight or hurt Kun ? Is this why he enters the Senate before their last duell saying that he will kill Ulic but first he has to stop Exar ? Funny...And yes he seems to be superior to the people who didn't try to attack Ulic or Kun for the single reason that he is the only person in the comics who managed to outduel Kun (in their first fight) or come close enough to duel Kun (watch Sylvar getting tossed arround like a ragdoll, Cay getting pwned by Kun's inferior Ulic, Nomi getting put on the ground by Ulic - and so on).

And now for the great killing of three Jedi Master (also @Escape81):
Do you two have any idea about armed combat ? I don't want to say that Sidious "caught them offguard" because that would be stupid but he utilized their lack of space and the fact that they were hindering each other.

First he jumped them which was clearly a surprise action even if he pulled his lightsaber out before. And then the lack of space started working:

a) Agen (form IV user) and Mace (form VII) user didn't have the space to use their fighting styles which are both based on quite wide swings.
b) When he stabbed Agen, Mace and Kit couldn't place a hit on him because he used Agen as a sort of "shield" while Mr. Tiin displayed the reaction time of a dead starfish and doesn't even move his saber before being cut down.
c) He then puts himself in a position which makes it impossible for Kit and Mace to hit him without risking to strike down eachother and then kills Kit.

And then when Windu finally has the space needed he overpowers Sidious and puts him on his ass. And from that action you want to tell me that Sidious is an uber duellist ? He clearly benefited from the circumstances / the situation. We have seen that Mace on his own was enough to defeat him. We know that Kit was on par or even better than Kenobi (Cestus Deception) and technically he should have lasted longer than 10 seconds against Sidious on his own. Agen and Saesee look like idiots here even though they both survived Geonosis which technically should mean that they are not that weak in terms of combat - but the scene makes them look like inexperienced wannabe-lightsaber-duellists.

Of course I know how Maul descriped Sidious but:
a) Maul is Sidious slave and his fanboy number one - thus a fallible source
b) Maul got his ass handed to Padawan Kenobi. Even if this was only due to his arrogance - if Kenobi can utilize that I'm pretty sure Sidious won't have any problems to do this either.

So why should we put ROTS Sidious above a lightsaber prodigy like Exar Kun when it comes to lightsaber duelling when Kun won all confrontations with Jedi Master we have seen while Sidious always lost in lightsaber combat ? If Sidious was a lightsaber prodigy he shouldn't have lost against Mace, Yoda and DE Luke (in the last case in a younger body and equipped with greater force powers) but all that happened. And I personally think that is the case because of Sidious philosophy and motivation. His motivation is power and his philosophy is to reach that goal by deception, manipulation but not through direct confrontation. And what need does somebody have to be a good fighter when his main "weapon of choice" is "stealth" or pulling the strings behind the scenes ? Sidious might possess exceptional force knowledge and power but I doubt that he is really skilled in terms of duelling - it just doesn't fit his personality and his fight against the 4 Jedi in his office (as I personally see it) was rather a display of his tactical abilities than a proof for his combat skills.

Razielim

Anakin acknowledges that he can beat Sidious. It's only that he blew a temper tantrum and Kenobi drew-out the fight with his Soresu mastery until Anakin messed up.

Lightsnake

No, just omniscient. Not up for debate, it's a narrarator and these ain't chronologies.

Yeah, you mean the Sith Lords who were all dead? Odan stripped Sith from a force, proof they were anything more than Massassi? And Yoda IS above them and yes, it's hinted he's had encounters with the Sith, something to do with the Rule of Two. And it puts Yoda square above the Jedi who were actually defeating Ancient Sith, and given it's the 'greatest foe the darkness had ever known'...how much greater than the light IS this darkness? Since Yoda was 'the most powerful force of light', with a grasp of the force and the light few ever receive...

Since when is Insider's information on the subjects canon? See: History of the Mandalorians, the story of General Grievous...since it's written by actual Star Wars authors, I buy it.

Considering it says Luke's skill has already surpassed most Jedi, I'd say there's plenty logic.

Even Mace acknowledged Obi-wan as the ultimate master of Soresu. Proof Mace invented Vaapad at thirteen? And Luke's not uber at combat situations, even then? Seriously...Anakin too. Did you watch the cartoons? See Anakin crush Dooku? And before you even try it: There's nothing to suggest Dooku held back. In fact, almost every source on the matter was Dooku realizing he had to fight seriously or Palpatine telling him to fight to the fullest and if Ani died, he wasn't worthy. Anakin also had the issue of having his mind fogged by anger and facing a guy who TRAINED him how to fight, the novelization even said Obi-wan knew all of Anakin's moves like they were his own.

Who do I believe, Nai? Vodo, whose own spirit actually said he didn't want to fight or hurt Kun and was there to turn him back to the light or someone else? And Kun didn't want to fight Sylvar at any one time, that he fought Vodo meant nothing, just a gesture from apprentice to master. And Oh, yeah, Cay REALLY wanted to fight Ulic seriously, all the 'Ulic, don't make me! I love you!" Real savage battle.

Ah, so Sidious utilized the environment and his brain, when the others could've come to the other's aid, dodged, counterattacked the damn thrust or slash? Not many forms involved there. And of course the idea that Palpatine held back and allowed himself to be overpowered doesn't enter into here, especially considering what Mace saw as his shatterpoint and what the Ultimate Visual Gudie had to say.

Oh, come on...Maul doesn't give any credit where it's not due he describes Sidious's abilities, and I quote-or the narrarator, I forget the exact context:he demonstrated the ability to "move faster than Darth Maul's eye can follow," and wielded a lightsaber with precision that he traced Maul's outline with its blade so closely thsuch at "one flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle" would have killed him"

And once more: Palpatine by ROTS has three of the greatest swordsman of the Jedi order ever on his resume, and he's only facing three of the strongest people the galaxy had ever seen. While your lightsaber prodigy fought...padawan Crado and Padawan Sylvar, stalemated Ulic and fought Vodo twice. So? Tsavong Lah lost most of his duels and he's the supreme warrior of the Yuuzhan Vong. And Sidious uses tactics and strategy in his duels...this somehow lessens him as a fighter? And once more: Sidious lived in the golden age of lightsaber combat. Why on earth would him losing to two of the greatest warriors of the light-and one rather debateable- and one guy matching him, drawing strength from his sister who's already been described as infintesimal to him when she's alreayd around the power of a Sunrider...when Kun's ever fought people like Mace and Yoda who were truly fighting to destroy...because they're both masterful saber fighters, so Kun being a 'saber prodigy' won't help.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, you mean the Sith Lords who were all dead? Odan stripped Sith from a force, proof they were anything more than Massassi?

What need would he have to strip Massassi from the force ? And he says "Sith Lords" himself. So...

Great. Because Yoda possibly encountered Sith that automatically puts him far above people who faced Ancient Sith Lords ? Uh-hu. And because of that statements he must be far more powerful than anybody else - it couldn't be that "most powerful" only descripes his superiority by 1 % or 10 % ? No...of course not. The point is since you don't have any idea how much more powerful Yoda is compared to Odan or Vodo you can't give any exact statement if he is superior to Kun. It's really that easy.

Wow. Proof ? May I remind you that a cloned PT Jedi gone dark (Joruus) was almost too much for him when Jorus himself clearly wasn't the powerhouse of the PT Jedi order ? But one year later he suddenly should have surpassed people like Mace or even Yoda ?

No of course there is nothing to suggest that Dooku held back - just the fact that he kicked Obi-Wan and Anakin arround like he wanted, blocked swings from both at once almost easily with one hand and so on and so forth. And wow...he was facing the guy who trained him ? Like Exar fighting against Vodo ?
The point is that Anakin after 13 years of training wasn't able to overcome Kenobi who - as Yoda said - wasn't powerful enough to defeat the Emperor. But suddenly Luke with less potential than Anakin, less training and less combat experience is able to do that because he "surpassed" all other people ? Really funny...

Vodo in his living form who has come to stop Exar and said he would kill Ulic ?

The point is that Cay couldn't outduel Ulic. Sylvar couldn't outduel Kun even in his "weaker" Padawan state. And Ulic put Nomi on her knees before. So what ? Obviously nobody except Vodo had the skill to defeat Ulic and Kun in direct confrontation which makes him quite superior to everybody else arround.

Of course. They could have dodged into walls, try counterattacks by slashing through their friends and use styles that weren't designed for situations where they have such a lack of space. Somehow I don't think so...

Lucas:"Mace overpowered Palpatine". End of "oh my Sidious held back" debate there. Period.

It's nice how many people can move fast in the SW universe. "If Kar Vastors movements were faster then lightning, Mace Windu was invisible." Taken from Shatterpoint. Mace was placing 6 hits on Kar before his opponent was able to show any reaction - and that was the guy who impressed Jedi Council Members (Depa and Mace) with his force powers and fighting abilities.

Wow. How many hyperboles can somebody use ? The "most powerful" people of the PT era are Sidious, Dooku, Anakin, Yoda, Mace. If you want to go by lightsaber abilities only...Yoda, Mace, Depa (who was equal to Mace) and possibly Dooku, Anakin and Obi-Wan are superior to Sidious in LIGHTSABER fighting. So technically he's not really the best lightsaber duellist you can find - not in the PT era and even less "all time" (as people like Kun, Ulic, Tulak Hord, the other ancient Sith, Luke, Kyle, Nomi and possibly even Revan and Malak are noted as "top duellists" who are damn skilled judging from what they have shown).

Yes. He's losing against Jedi when we have Lucas in the TPM commentary stating that Jedi are "almost invincible" if not confronting other force users. How many people have we seen defeating or stalemating Jedi in melee combat being non-force-users. The only people that come to my mind are Ulic and Grievous while Grievous - according to Dooku - needs the surprise elements to do so.
This alone gives Ulic a unique position in terms of lightsaber combat and with him the people able to best him (Kun and Vodo).

Rofl. He uses tactics and strategy to compensate a lack of actual duelling skill. And the PT era isn't the "golden age of lightsaber combat" it's the "Golden age of the Jedi" which isn't equal with "Golden Age of Lightsaber combat". The Golden Age of Lightsaber combat was either Tulak Hords time (millenia before the PT) or the Republics Dark Ages with the Battles on Ruusan (1,000 years before the PT) - because people needed to fight lightsaber vs lightsaber there which clearly wasn't needed before the PT.

If you are able to write this in a form that makes some sense please do it. Leia was far away from being as powerful as Nomi Sunrider so try and sell that stuff to somebody who buys it. Fact: Kun was a saber prodigy, Sidious was not. Kun has amulets that give him some power boost - Sidious in ROTS doesn't. And why Yoda and Sidious might be a very nice match for Kun - still DN Luke is able to destroy both opponents rather easily why both would have problems with Kun. So why debating here ? Yoda and Sidious simply lose that fight...

Lightsnake

I'm just saying, considering the Sith Lords were completely wiped out, from either Ludo's folloy or Naga's attack.

If we take the villains into account themselves, then it puts Yoda far above the others, unless people like Vodo were the best the light ever had to offer. Since Kun is hardly the greatest the darkness has had to offer, logic would dictate Yoda is greater than him, and considering Yoda's come into the power of the light in a way few ever even understand, and the light is stronger than the dark side if used properly...

It says he did in the DE sourcebook, and Jorus was a year back. And it only took Exar...three years to become the 'darkest power in the galaxy'...and several, what, weeks, to become a full fledged power as a Sith Lord.

And the novelization goes on to explain Anakin and Obi-wan were using inferior forms to trick Dooku. The novelization says he fought seriously, the script says he was plain overpowered, LoE has Sidious TELLING him to fight to his best...and yeah, Kenobi's SKILL means nothing? And Anakin's state of mind? There's a reason Kenobi was sent after Anakin: Because he knew him, knew his moves and knew how to counter him, it's that simple. It has nothing to do with power.

Vodo who by his own admission couldn't truly fight Exar and Ulic who Exar failed to overcome?

Cay didn't WANT to fight Ulic, he was crying during the fight! And Sylvar couldn't outduel Kun? That fight was never even finished and Kun just out and grabbed her when she clawed him. And Vodo being Kun's former master had nothing to do with it? Unless we saw every other Master, most of whom weren't even present...there's a reason Kun sent apprentice after master, too. The logic is 'Vodo tried and failed so he must be better'

Anything's better than just letting him stab or slash you. Just face it: Sidious was plain faster, smarter and better than they were....or, y'know a simple sweep of one's blade could've saved their lives.

Except nothing to say he didn't overpower him because Sidious held back. Cuts both ways.

That's great. Luke was also flying across Palp's throne room, too fast than the eye could perceive.

Ahhh, yes, the hyperbole backpedal. Considering said swordsmen are only described such and that's used by Insider to compliment Palpatine's skill, not to mention...trying to say Mace, Yoda and Luke aren't three of the most powerful entities the galaxy's seen? Especially when Palpatine is noted as 'perhaps one of the best duelists who ever lived' and Mace is 'one of the greatest duelists the Jedi order ever produced', with Yoda above him, and Luke's skill with a saber being described as 'incredible'

Grievous needed surprised? Which is why we've seen accomplished Jedi rush him and get cut down. Ulic held off Sylvar, goody for him. I'd pity the man who couldn't hold off an emotionally scarred berserker. And toss Anja Gallandro on that list.

Palpatine is describe das possibly one of the greatest duelists who have ever lived, end of your 'he has no dueling skill' argument. Even if he's not, this shows he's more than qualified as a duelist. And I pity the duelist without tactical skills or intelligence.

Except the comic says Leia is strong as Nomi and Vima, try again.
Keep trying to go against what the facts say, Nai. Since that 'Yoda is the greatest foe the darkness had ever known,' let's use some logic...Yoda doesn't mind killing dark siders, he's done it ruthlessly in the past. He'd have no restraints with Kun, and by definition, unless the darksiders are all just above the Light, which has been proven and stated to be false, Yoda has mastered every discipline of the light and become the greatest force of light the galaxy had ever seen by that point, so unless Kun can contend with the most powerful Jedi who's ever lived up until that point, he's a dead man. Yoda's had nine hundred years to come into the full power of the light side, Kun had three years with the dark side. He's also facing the being who's mastered every discipline of the Jedi, will not hesitate to kill him, doesn't give a damn about turning him to the light and can throw anything he dishes out back in his face.

And fact: Sidious is described as an exceptional duelist and possibly one of the greatest duelists who ever lived, by a canon and factual article that certainly supercedes any argument you could make.
Fact: Leia is described as being as powerful as Nomi and Vima, by their own descendant and in later narraration.

And unless you have something of Kun's by the PT archaic Makashi skill...and the golden age of the Jedi, with some of the greatest duelists the Jedi Order had ever seen...no advancements in saber combat? In the ages of the Dookus, Anakins-described as a 'nine' in saber combat by Mr. Gillard who invented his style, up there with Palpatine, Yoda and Mace, the Maces, the Yodas....

There go your 'facts', Nai. As you said: Sell it to someone who buys it, I'm trusting the soruce material.

Escape81

Precisely. Sidious didn't catch them off guard. They knew full well what he was, what he might do. Sith Lords don't have a reputation for being particularly benign. As for utilization, what's your point? Are you going to pull an Illustrious on me and dismiss Sidious for simply fighting smart? He had an advantage, he took it, and it let him obliterate three of the four Jedi who came to arrest him.

The surprise dismissal is another problem. What's your point? Yes, he surprised them by jumping. In ROTS, combatants always attempt to surprise their opponent. I'm sure that when Mace kicked Palpatine in the face, he surprised him too. But you don't hear me dismissing Mace's victory.

Again: Palpatine fights smart.

Again: Palpatine fights smart.

The bottom line is this: He outsmarted his opponents, which allowed him to kill them. Are you trying to say, Nai, that those three are better sword fighters than he is? I recall Lucas saying:

"Only Mace and Yoda can compete with the Emperor."

He'd WTFpwn Fisto, Tinn, and Kolar.

Mace put Sidious on his ass, but you're one of the people who makes it sound like the duel lasted ten seconds. Wrong. Mace is not superior to Sidious by leagues, not even in dueling ability.

Mm-hmm. Let me tell you something. If Obi-Wan, as a Padawan, were superior to Maul - really - then why didn't Obi-Wan kill him when he had Qui-Gon Jinn there? Point moot. Kenobi couldn't kill Maul when he even had help. Maul got cocky, kind've like Anakin, and paid the price. Maul was a better duelist to TPM Obi-Wan and TPM Qui-Gon.

I agree. Sidious's lightsaber abilities aren't on par with Exar Kun, at least in my opinion. But, again, Sidious wasn't WTFpwned in lightsaber combat against Mace or Yoda. And, I'm inclined to think that Leia had something to do with the fight with Luke - not because I'm biased, but because Sidious nearly killed Luke - but then as soon as Leia began to "glow", BLAM! Sidious's arm is amputated.

This actually makes sense, and I support it 100%.

Sidious's Force powers, in the PT are equal or beneath only Yoda. He's better than Mace, Dooku, Anakin, Obi-Wan, and all others in Force powers.

Lightsnake

Why on earth would the Sith Lord not be skilled in combat? Just because fighting isn't a man's main method doesn't mean he's incabable, because the same could apply to Yoda who doesn't particilarly like pulling up the saber...same could apply to Dooku.

Facts remain: Sidious is a good fighter, and it's that simple. He saw how the Sith failed in the past and tried the new, better way. He kepts his claws hidden, but they were always there

Escape81

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Why on earth would the Sith Lord not be skilled in combat? Just because fighting isn't a man's main method doesn't mean he's incabable, because the same could apply to Yoda who doesn't particilarly like pulling up the saber...same could apply to Dooku.

Facts remain: Sidious is a good fighter, and it's that simple. He saw how the Sith failed in the past and tried the new, better way. He kepts his claws hidden, but they were always there

Sidious doesn't suck in combat. I suppose what Nai is trying to say is that: Sidious's most effective weapon is his mind. He didn't conquer the Jedi by fighting them, but by using them. Sidious's dueling skills can always be put into question - but his intellect can't. And that his fighting skills will always be second.

Sidious's philosophy is indeed based on manipulation, stealth, and deceit.

Lightsnake

Kun also tried underhanded tactics, Ulic managed to foul that up. Palp launched into battle mainly to trick Anakin, he knew the Jedi were coming.

A genius could still be a master fighter. Mace was a brilliant master and he favored peaceful solutions far over combat, same with Yoda.

Escape81

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Kun also tried underhanded tactics, Ulic managed to foul that up. Palp launched into battle mainly to trick Anakin, he knew the Jedi were coming.

A genius could still be a master fighter. Mace was a brilliant master and he favored peaceful solutions far over combat, same with Yoda.

Okay, you're mis-understanding. Sidious was an incredible fighter. I'm not denying that. But I'm saying his dueling ability and even his Force powers play second fiddle to his intellect.

e.l,m,t,i,(r k)

Originally posted by Escape81
Okay, you're mis-understanding. Sidious was an incredible fighter. I'm not denying that. But I'm saying his dueling ability and even his Force powers play second fiddle to his intellect. DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO-DOO

Lightsnake

I getcha, Escape. Yes, fully agreed

Admiral Akbar

Originally posted by Escape81
You read it in the novelization.

The point is, the Jedi were prepared to face Sidious. They knew his identity, they outnumbered him, they knew he might attack, and he ignited his weapon and attacked several seconds later.

Not being able to predict his exact move isn't a show of being caught off guard. If that is the case, then 'all' duels have parts where one of the combatants is caught off guard. That means:

- Anakin caught Count Dooku off guard when he decapitated him.
- Obi-Wan caught Grievous off guard when he disarmed him.
- Yoda caught the stormtroopers off guard when he fought them.
- Obi-Wan caught Anakin off guard when he de-limbed him.

The point is - they knew that Sidious was going to attack them. The reason that Agen, Tinn, and Fisto were beaten is a simple one. Sidious was the better fighter.

Well, there must be a reason for the force scream. I doubt Sidious snarled just to show that he is badass.

- Dooku had no hands and was a defensless old man. Anakin had two lightsabers at his throat. Dooku predicting his next move would have made no difference.
-Yes, but you did of course see Obi Wan back up and plan his next move before he charged in and attacked. Despite the fact that Grevious ignited and attacked far slower than Palpatine. Palps pulled his saber and launched himself across the room.
-The stormtroopers dont use the force hence they cannot predict a jedi's/sith's next move. You cant apply that here.
-Not really..Obi Wan even told Anakin not to jump because he had the high ground. Its common sense Obi knew anakin was going to try something ridiculous.

Actually they were all close together in one closed space. No room too defend. And if you watched the movie which I suppose you have. You can see both Jedi delay. Actually come to think of it they dident even attack him. Only Kit and Mace did.

Great Vengeance

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Well, there must be a reason for the force scream. I doubt Sidious snarled just to show that he is badass.
\

The scream was just a filming tactic, to further dramaticize the first unleashing we see of Sidious' power.

Great Vengeance

There is not much of a seperation between melee combat and force power really, they are strongly tied together. But that is beside the point...there is nothing to suggest Vodo has more power and/or is more skilled in melee combat. Yoda is widely recognized in many sources as a peak of jedi power and wisdom. Where is it ever stated that Vodo is anything special? Im not even certain he is the strongest of his *own* time period, as Odan-Urr was older and hyped to be a 'legendary' jedi.

Yes if you take the fight on a literal level, then it is a stalemate because both opponents survived. But Sidious won as far as objectives achieved were concerned. Who really wins: The guy who runs away to the swamps, and even admits that he has 'failed' or the guy who becomes supreme emperor of the galaxy?

And no, that whole crap about Yoda having a 'weaker position' is just bs that people thought up to justify Yoda losing because they couldnt accept that Sidious is simply more powerful. The fight *was* on equal ground, because both opponents were fully capable of using the enviroment to their advantage. The fact that Yoda was hopping around, constantly on the defensive, isnt an excuse for Yoda not winning sorry. Sidious was simply more powerful, and used that power to assert his control during the fight.

Twisted logic, how do you know those people who managed to outduel Sidious wouldnt outduel Kun as well?

Yeah I suppose your right here, Luke has gotten so out of proportion that it is no use arguing against him anymore.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
The scream was just a filming tactic, to further dramaticize the first unleashing we see of Sidious' power.

That would be called an out-of-universe explanation. What is the in-universe explanation?

Deception

Since when has ROTS Sidious been able to defeat Exar Kun?

Sinec when has ROTS Yoda been able to hold off Kun?

Lightsnake you get bolder with every statement, and your fanboyism is becoming more and more evident, whilst most of us agree DE Sidious is the perfect match for Exar Kun, your pulling statements out of your ass.

Show that ROTS Sidious has enough force abilities to defeat Kun

Show that ROTS Yoda is strong enough to even compete with Kun.

You say Kun is the most overrated character, yet you fail to see just how much you overrate Luke, Sidious and Yoda.

This match isn't even a contest, Luke curbstomps them both without help, or Kun does it in 10 seconds.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Deception
Since when has ROTS Sidious been able to defeat Exar Kun?

Sinec when has ROTS Yoda been able to hold off Kun?

Lightsnake you get bolder with every statement, and your fanboyism is becoming more and more evident, whilst most of us agree DE Sidious is the perfect match for Exar Kun, your pulling statements out of your ass.

Show that ROTS Sidious has enough force abilities to defeat Kun

Show that ROTS Yoda is strong enough to even compete with Kun.

You say Kun is the most overrated character, yet you fail to see just how much you overrate Luke, Sidious and Yoda.

This match isn't even a contest, Luke curbstomps them both without help, or Kun does it in 10 seconds.
Since ROTS Sidious whas been considered as one of the most powerful Sith Lords and has mastered the darkest secrets of the Sith

Since Yoda's the most powerful Jedi who ever lived

Unfortunately for you, Deception, I've been arguing on what the official material says, leaving you without an argument. You've ignored the argument completely, buddy boy, and you're just riding on Nai, who's a far superior debator. Learn to actually READ what the other guy writes. Kun'd be dead on his own, Let me simplify it for you: SW= fantasy, in fantasy the strongest good>The strongest evil, and Yoda is unquestionably the strongest Jedi master who ever lived up until the time Luke comes into his own. How'll Kun beat him, I'm curious? Especially Sidious who's already come into his own power and is able to compete with Yoda, who realizes he can't win the battle

Count Kent

Even as of DE, Sidious is leagues below the great powerful sith lords.

Lightsnake

Except you've got nothing but your own opinions

Count Kent

And you don't. Until you have concrete facts, you also have nothing but your opinions.

e.l,m,t,i,(r k)

everybody is under the impression that luke's a god why debate

Count Kent

Luke virtually is a god. The only people that I can think of in the EU who could beat him would be Revan and some others who don't really count as they are basically unknown in terms of the EU. Sion and Bane come close.

e.l,m,t,i,(r k)

Originally posted by Count Kent
Luke virtually is a god. The only people that I can think of in the EU who could beat him would be Revan and some others who don't really count as they are basically unknown in terms of the EU. Sion and Bane come close. RAGNOS

Count Kent

Ragnos? lol he is not even in the top twenty imo. Plus he is an unknown in terms of the EU, so he doesn't really count.

e.l,m,t,i,(r k)

Originally posted by Count Kent
Ragnos? lol he is not even in the top twenty imo. Plus he is an unknown in terms of the EU, so he doesn't really count. RETARDED NOOB STFU DAMN NOOB

overlord

Originally posted by e.l,m,t,i,(r k)
RETARDED NOOB STFU DAMN NOOB LOL!! YOU CAN'T SAY STUFF LIKE THAT!! LOL LOL LOL!!!

Razielim

Revan would get curbstomped by Luke, DE Sidious and Sadow.

Really, what has Revan done that came close to manipulating black holes, rip apart star fleets and anything Sadow did ? Revan is probably below Yoda's level.

Count Kent

In terms of The EU, not including virtual unknowns, it goes:
1. Revan.
2. Luke Skywalker.
3. Darth Bane.
4. Darth Sion.
5. Darth Nihilus.
6. Darth Traya.
7. Zayne Carrick.
8. Kyp Durron.
9. Jacen Solo.
10. Lord Hoth.

Any incarnation of Ragnos does not even come close to this list, and I can assure you that he would not even make the top 30. I mean I can think of about 30 characters solely from the NJO and the KOTOR series that would be above Ragnos.

Admiral Akbar

WTF? Revan better than Luke? Pass what you're smoking.

Count Kent

Originally posted by Razielim
Revan would get curbstomped by Luke, DE Sidious and Sadow.

Really, what has Revan done that came close to manipulating black holes, rip apart star fleets and anything Sadow did ? Revan is probably below Yoda's level.

He destroyed Malak with all of the power of the star forge at his disposal (which enabled him to continuously rejuvenate his life). Even defeating a minor force user with all of the power of the star forge would have been impressive, let alone Malak, who was very proficient in Tulak Hord's fighting technique and who had a terrifying grasp of the dark side, not to mention his incredible physical strength.

He was able to hold off Bastilla who was not only able to wield a little of the star forge's power and who was not only slightly proficient in Tulak Hord's technique (which focuses on deadly attacks that makes the fight hardly last long at all and is incredibly hard to defend against and sometimes the only defence against it is offence ), but was enraged with the dark side to such a frightening degree that Malak even believed that he would have trouble defeating her. On top of this, he was also able to draw on their love and turn her back to the light, which was very impressive and suggests that Revan was very wise and in control of his emotions.

What makes these things extra impressive was that prior to them, he was able to fight through an entire fortress of dark jedi and advanced star forge battle droids, and was also able to defend and protect his fallen comrades (Jolee Bindo, Juhani, Canderous Ordo and Zalbaar). So he had enough energy to do those two incredible feats after battling through the entire Star Forge fortress. That is very impressive.

He was also earlier able to defeat Darth Bandon, who like Bastilla and Malak, was slightly proficient in Tulak Hord's technique and who was very proficient in the red side of the force. Bare in mind that he achieved all of this after he had had his memory wiped by the jedi. He was much more powerful before as a sith lord.

On top of all of these achievements, Revan was able to master a bunch of force techniques of the universal, light and dark side of the force, including force storm and force drain. He was able to master all 7 standard lightsaber styles whether with one lightsabers, two sabers or a saber staff and was able to master Tulak Hord's style. This is phenomenal. He was also able to control Ajunta Pall's famous sword and not be consumed by it's power. This suggests great strength in the light and great willpower and force mastery and control. He also had such a high will power that he was able to mind control a Hutt. This was only ever achieved again by the Exile, Zayne.

Lord Saboteur

Originally posted by Count Kent
He destroyed Malak with all of the power of the star forge at his disposal (which enabled him to continuously rejuvenate his life). Even defeating a minor force user with all of the power of the star forge would have been impressive, let alone Malak, who was very proficient in Tulak Hord's fighting technique and who had a terrifying grasp of the dark side, not to mention his incredible physical strength.

He was able to hold off Bastilla who was not only able to wield a little of the star forge's power and who was not only slightly proficient in Tulak Hord's technique (which focuses on deadly attacks that makes the fight hardly last long at all and is incredibly hard to defend against and sometimes the only defence against it is offence ), but was enraged with the dark side to such a frightening degree that Malak even believed that he would have trouble defeating her. On top of this, he was also able to draw on their love and turn her back to the light, which was very impressive and suggests that Revan was very wise and in control of his emotions.

What makes these things extra impressive was that prior to them, he was able to fight through an entire fortress of dark jedi and advanced star forge battle droids, and was also able to defend and protect his fallen comrades (Jolee Bindo, Juhani, Canderous Ordo and Zalbaar). So he had enough energy to do those two incredible feats after battling through the entire Star Forge fortress. That is very impressive.

He was also earlier able to defeat Darth Bandon, who like Bastilla and Malak, was slightly proficient in Tulak Hord's technique and who was very proficient in the red side of the force. Bare in mind that he achieved all of this after he had had his memory wiped by the jedi. He was much more powerful before as a sith lord.

On top of all of these achievements, Revan was able to master a bunch of force techniques of the universal, light and dark side of the force, including force storm and force drain. He was able to master all 7 standard lightsaber styles whether with one lightsabers, two sabers or a saber staff and was able to master Tulak Hord's style. This is phenomenal. He was also able to control Ajunta Pall's famous sword and not be consumed by it's power. This suggests great strength in the light and great willpower and force mastery and control. He also had such a high will power that he was able to mind control a Hutt. This was only ever achieved again by the Exile, Zayne. This is so flawed it's not even humorous, pass what you're smoking please.

Count Kent

Originally posted by Lord Saboteur
This is so flawed it's not even humorous, pass what you're smoking please.

Point out what is flawed.

Razielim

He destroyed Malak with all of the power of the star forge at his disposal (which enabled him to continuously rejuvenate his life).

Substantiate the "power of the Star Forge" and prove that Revan didn't drain the tubes himself.

Even defeating a minor force user with all of the power of the star forge would have been impressive

Unless you prove how it heightens your abilities, and by how much, the point is pretty much moot.

let alone Malak, who was very proficient in Tulak Hord's fighting technique and who had a terrifying grasp of the dark side, not to mention his incredible physical strength.

lol.

Revan has Tulak Hord's holocron. Now prove Malak was profient with it. The last two were said by whom?

Oh, and Kreia used those terms to describe Marka Ragnos, not Malak.

He was able to hold off Bastilla who was not only able to wield a little of the star forge's power and who was not only slightly proficient in Tulak Hord's technique

Proof Bastila knew about Revan's holocron? Prove Bastila was anything more than an average Jedi?

(which focuses on deadly attacks that makes the fight hardly last long at all and is incredibly hard to defend against and sometimes the only defence against it is offence )

Source please.

but was enraged with the dark side to such a frightening degree that Malak even believed that he would have trouble defeating her.

Source please. And prove that Malak would have any trouble defeating her.

On top of this, he was also able to draw on their love and turn her back to the light, which was very impressive and suggests that Revan was very wise and in control of his emotions.

Prove from a canon source that Revan was a male. And light sided.

What makes these things extra impressive was that prior to them, he was able to fight through an entire fortress of dark jedi and advanced star forge battle droids, and was also able to defend and protect his fallen comrades (Jolee Bindo, Juhani, Canderous Ordo and Zalbaar)

He could have snuck by them and killed no one. Point moot.

So he had enough energy to do those two incredible feats after battling through the entire Star Forge fortress. That is very impressive.

He might have not "battled" a single thing.

He was also earlier able to defeat Darth Bandon, who like Bastilla and Malak, was slightly proficient in Tulak Hord's technique and who was very proficient in the red side of the force. Bare in mind that he achieved all of this after he had had his memory wiped by the jedi. He was much more powerful before as a sith lord.

No, he was more powerful after the mind wipe. Malak even admits this. And what is this crap about the "RED" side of the force? And Tulak Hord's holocron? Jeez, it seems like EVERYBODY has it.

On top of all of these achievements, Revan was able to master a bunch of force techniques of the universal, light and dark side of the force, including force storm and force drain.

We don't know which techniques Revan had. Point moot. He probably did have force lightning, but again, just speculation

He was able to master all 7 standard lightsaber styles whether with one lightsabers, two sabers or a saber staff and was able to master Tulak Hord's style.

Source where it said he mastered all seven and Tulak Hord's style, please.

He was also able to control Ajunta Pall's famous sword and not be consumed by it's power. This suggests great strength in the light and great willpower and force mastery and control.

Uh huh. And in my game, he didn't even set a foot in that tomb. And where does it say that the sword "consumes" people and that it requires awesome power to weild it? Uthar Wynn took it from him and he didn't explode.

He also had such a high will power that he was able to mind control a Hutt. This was only ever achieved again by the Exile, Zayne.

Proof he did this, please.