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Round 1. light-sabres only

2. Force only

3.ffa


okay Lightsnake, heres your time to shine

Oh yeah its time for all the foo!s who whack off to ancient sith to come ut.

Lol.


Traya is pretty much an unknown...but meh, I suppose I could conjure up an argument in favor of Sidious if anyone wants to argue for Traya.

Erm . . . Can't Traya just instakill him?

Originally posted by Escape81
Erm . . . Can't Traya just instakill him?

No.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
No.

Why?

Exactly.

Why can't she just instakill Sidious? We've seen her do it with experienced Jedi Masters.

What makes Sidious so damn special?

1. Traya uses her technique of levitating multiple lightsabers against Sidious. Her tremendous force mastery and focus enable her to duel telekinetically just as well as if she were to duel normally. There's no way Sidious will be able to deal with this.

2. Traya instakills him.

3. Traya instakills him.

Either way, traya pwns.

Originally posted by Xavius
Exactly.

Why can't she just instakill Sidious? We've seen her do it with experienced Jedi Masters.

What makes Sidious so damn special? Well:
1.Knew a lot about Ancient Sith Magic and Alcehmy,even wrote books about it.Most likely knew how to counter it(which the 'experienced' Masters,didn't know)
2.Took down the Republic,the Jedi and the CIS with relative ease.
3.Traya is,like Ragnos,grossly overpowered.She used a technique a Masters who didn't know how to counter it,big deal!Doesn't mean it'll work on just anyone.Again,you haven't provided anything accept,"ZOmg!11!Sh3'11 ju5t 1nstak1ll $id$ b3(4u$3 $h3 is Ub3r!11!",there is no proof that this techinique will work on just about EVERYONE.

And so what?She can levitate lightsabers.Ever heard of force lightning?He shocks them,power cells overload and they explode.


Again,everyone believes assumptions to which there is no proof to show that it will work on just about anyone.No wonder REX whats to close down the SW Versus forum.

Originally posted by DE Luke
And so what?She can levitate lightsabers.Ever heard of force lightning?He shocks them,power cells overload and they explode.

WTF are you an idiot?

Originally posted by Count Kent
WTF are you an idiot? You got something to provide that this DOESN'T happen?Yoda's lightsaber only resisted it because it was made from electrum(a material known to block just about everything from breaking it,including force lightning and lightsaber scoring,only given to Senior Council Members,Mace and Yoda in this case).Again,provide your proof that what I say isn't true.

You seriously can not be more wrong. A saber can block anything.

Originally posted by Count Kent
You seriously can not be more wrong. A saber can block anything. Yeah,can it block a missle?No.Again,you prove you are n00b.He can fire force lightning at it,and while the saber is blocking the lightning,Sid's saber slice's through the hilt.Could it be *GASP* LOGIC?!The lost art of the ancients?!

A saber can block a missile you fool.

Show me where.Show me some 'real' proof.Oh right,there isn't!Only your illogical opinion!Who's the fool again?Oh yeah,you.

Nothing can penetrate a saber except for another saber or a legendary force power.

Originally posted by DE Luke
Well:
1.Knew a lot about Ancient Sith Magic and Alcehmy,even wrote books about it.Most likely knew how to counter it(which the 'experienced' Masters,didn't know)
2.Took down the Republic,the Jedi and the CIS with relative ease.
3.Traya is,like Ragnos,grossly overpowered.She used a technique a Masters who didn't know how to counter it,big deal!Doesn't mean it'll work on just anyone.Again,you haven't provided anything accept,"ZOmg!11!Sh3'11 ju5t 1nstak1ll $id$ b3(4u$3 $h3 is Ub3r!11!",there is no proof that this techinique will work on just about EVERYONE.

And so what?She can levitate lightsabers.Ever heard of force lightning?He shocks them,power cells overload and they explode.


Again,everyone believes assumptions to which there is no proof to show that it will work on just about anyone.No wonder REX whats to close down the SW Versus forum.

1. "Most likely" doesn't cut it. That's an assumption, which is something you just complained about.

2. That's irrelevant to him going against an extremely powerful Sith Lord. And he had large amounts of help taking down the Jedi, Republic and CIS.

3. Logical Fallacy. You're using a double negative. How can you complain about a lack of proof, when you have none yourself? What . . . You think YOU saying Traya can't instakill Palpatine is better than me saying she can? Hahaha!

Yes, I've heard of Force Lightning. I also heard on RotS, it gets blocked with a Lightsaber.

Hey like I said,just saying she instakill him,isn't going to cut it either.That isn't an answer.You have nothing of signifigance to actually provide as proof.Those Masters didn't know how to counter an attack like that,don't use that as your answer.Until I see some actual proof that this will work on ANYONE,Sidious wins.

Did you read my other post?Sids will use force lightning on the saber,and while it's blocking the lightning,and distracted,he'll cut throught it.

How did he have help?He MANIPULATED them!He didn't ask their help,he used them to his own ends.They were just too gullible not to see through it.

And just saying "Traya will just instakill him." isn't going to cut it either.

The masters that Traya instakilled were stronger willed then Sidious as of ROTS. Why would Sidious be able to resist it?

No they weren't.

However, due to the fact that she managed to toss around three of them with the force, I'm inclined to say she could damn well pwn Sidious in a force fight.

Sidious probably has it in a saber fight...

Originally posted by Razielim
No they weren't.

However, due to the fact that she managed to toss around three of them with the force, I'm inclined to say she could damn well pwn Sidious in a force fight.

Sidious probably has it in a saber fight... Yeah,but did they know how to counter it?Sidious would,he DID learn a lot of Sith secrets when he was Dark Lord aswell as before that.

1. This could be close, Traya could levitate her lightsabers, something Sidious has probably never seen happen before, but Sidious is no slouch with a lightsaber. This one's an unknown.

2. Traya pwns due to instakill. Even if Sidious tries to zap her as she's using instikill then Tyara gets hurt a little and Sidious dies.

3. Same as #2

f*ck. I meant to make it DE sids. Ah well.

There's zero proof that instakill was 100 percent effective, or unblockable, especially to another Sith who's already been mentored by the Ancient Dark Lords themselves, and considering Sidious has done the force drain ability on global scales...and noone in that order is a stranger to telekenetic lightsaber combat, Mace was capable of it himself.

Traya falls short, in both saber ability and the force

Sidious wins all three.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
There's zero proof that instakill was 100 percent effective, or unblockable, especially to another Sith who's already been mentored by the Ancient Dark Lords themselves, and considering Sidious has done the force drain ability on global scales...and noone in that order is a stranger to telekenetic lightsaber combat, Mace was capable of it himself.

Traya falls short, in both saber ability and the force

It has nothing to do with knowledge of the ability. It has all to do with resistance to force powers, and until Sidious becomes stronger in the force then Kavar, and develops a stronger will, you have no case.

IT's a good thing he has, given that he knows said technique

Not even DE Sidious has as high a willpower as Kavar. Don't be foolish.

I'm not foolish. I'm using my brain. An organ that has rotted in misuse from you

Originally posted by Escape81
Why?

Its blind speculation, that has no place in a healthy debate.


"Treya wil jus inst4k1ll him!!!11"


Doesnt quite cut it.

Well you're displaying plain stupidity and ignorance. Everyone thinks you're a fool.

Originally posted by DE Luke
No wonder REX whats to close down the SW Versus forum.
he wants to close this forum because people like me and you are considered the unofficial "veterans" Ever since Janus left Rex is the only one of his kind except for Jonathan Marks and Ush

Originally posted by Count Kent
Well you're displaying plain stupidity and ignorance. Everyone thinks you're a fool.

I can say the same for you.

Originally posted by Count Kent
It has nothing to do with knowledge of the ability. It has all to do with resistance to force powers, and until Sidious becomes stronger in the force then Kavar, and develops a stronger will, you have no case.
Are you kidding me He doesn't need a lightsaber to kill several jedi who do have a lightsaber.

Originally posted by darthsith19
1. This could be close, Traya could levitate her lightsabers, something Sidious has probably never seen happen before, but Sidious is no slouch with a lightsaber. This one's an unknown.

2. Traya pwns due to instakill. Even if Sidious tries to zap her as she's using instikill then Tyara gets hurt a little and Sidious dies.

3. Same as #2

I agree wit hthis to an extent. And how do you know that Sids, suppsoedly one of the best Sith Lords in history, has less strength in the force?

Originally posted by Count Kent
Well you're displaying plain stupidity and ignorance. Everyone thinks you're a fool.

Im not sure if you were talking to me or LS, but either way you need to STFU. We are both far more intelligent than you will ever be, and any attempt to insult our intelligence just makes you look even more of a fool than you already are. (which is just barely possible)

Originally posted by KMC Dark Lord
I can say the same for you.

Everyone knows that you're a fake black man.

Originally posted by Count Kent
Everyone knows that you're a fake black man.

Everyone knows your a idiot who has no debating ability whatsoever, so you reinforce your shitty excuse for an argument by trying to belittle people.

And the Count trolls again!

guys stuff like this gets you banned, I was, and i don't want you people to get banned so stop, PM him or something, but if you do it don't do it here.

of all the noobs count kent and mikester are the least of our worries people, Numan and that one dude with the extemely wierd name e,m,l,k or something like that will be back, so lets be glad we are stuck with kent and not numan and the rest of the gang.

Originally posted by KMC Dark Lord
Everyone knows your a dumb ass who has no debating ability whatsoever, so you reinforce your shitty excuse for an argument by trying to belittle people.

Ok, you want a debate, me and you white boy. Zayne Carrick versus Mace Windu.

KMC Dark Lord wins. Debate over.

Originally posted by Count Kent
Ok, you want a debate, me and you white boy. Zayne Carrick versus Mace Windu.

Reported. You just had to go racial didn't you?

And Maul, your right. I dont need to get banned by sinking down to his level.

Originally posted by KMC Dark Lord
Reported. You just had to go racial didn't you?

Let's have a debate. You get Windu, I get Zayne 'The Exile' Carrick.

so wait, someone's getting racial on a star wars versus forum....Armageddon?

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
so wait, someone's getting racial on a star wars versus
forum....Armageddon?

Ha Ha

Originally posted by Count Kent
Let's have a debate. You get Windu, I get Zayne 'The Exile' Carrick.

First off all, you can't just "pick" people for someone. How do you know KMC doesn't think Zayne would win? Albeit he wouldn't, add to the fact that you haven't shown (nor have I seen any) proof that the Exile is in-fact Zayne. It seems illogical anyways.

Secondly, you cannot debate in this topic because it is not "Troll: Zayne Carrick vs. KMCDL: Mace Windu", it's ROTS Sidious vs. Darth Traya. So, create a new topic and don't bring your nuisance here.

Now, you guys should be getting back on topic.

wait nope

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
First off all, you can't just "pick" people for someone. How do you know KMC doesn't think Zayne would win? Albeit he wouldn't, add to the fact that you haven't shown (nor have I seen any) proof that the Exile is in-fact Zayne. It seems illogical anyways.

Secondly, you cannot debate in this topic because it is not "Troll: Zayne Carrick vs. KMCDL: Mace Windu", it's ROTS Sidious vs. Darth Traya. So, create a new topic and don't bring your nuisance here.

Now, you guys should be getting back on topic.

Thank you. And Kent dont you think you should perhaps lay low for awhile? I already reported you for trolling.

trolling...ha...hah....hahahahaha, all these new phrases, pwn,troll,flame,own,disown,pwnage,pwnzor, and my alltime favorite (cus itz de fonney woon) WTFpwn. Give it a rest with the new phrases cuz, we aren't all the fastest learners.

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
trolling...ha...hah....hahahahaha, all these new phrases, pwn,troll,flame,own,disown,pwnage,pwnzor, and my alltime favorite (cus itz de fonney woon) WTFpwn. Give it a rest with the new phrases cuz, we aren't all the fastest learners.

what? The word trolling has been being used for like....the last since I joined this forum which was like 5 months ago.

On-Topic: I think Traya might win the lightsabre duel just because of the rotating lightsabre thing. (I havn't played either of the Kotr games, so my knowledge is limited.)

For the force battle I think it all depends on who gets their uber force attack off first. If Sids fires hsi lightning at Traya, she will probably be to stunned from getting shoked to fire off a blast of ehr own, thus she will die. I don't really know the extent of what Traya's instakill does, other than kill someone. So...yeah.

Neither would win. They would get turned-on by eachothers wrinkles and have old-people sex.

Sidious:The force is my condom!


R.M.horse

Originally posted by KMC Dark Lord
what? The word trolling has been being used for like....the last since I joined this forum which was like 5 months ago.
maybe, but i was gone for like five months from this website....Age of Mythology was adicting..

Originally posted by ReverendM@k@shi
Neither would win. They would get turned-on by eachothers wrinkles and have old-people sex.

Sidious:The force is my condom!


R.M.horse

Sorry but I've been gone awhile so. . .What the **** is trolling?



R.M.horse

I know for real....

Originally posted by DE Luke
Hey like I said,just saying she instakill him,isn't going to cut it either.That isn't an answer.You have nothing of signifigance to actually provide as proof.Those Masters didn't know how to counter an attack like that,don't use that as your answer.Until I see some actual proof that this will work on ANYONE,Sidious wins.

Did you read my other post?Sids will use force lightning on the saber,and while it's blocking the lightning,and distracted,he'll cut throught it.

How did he have help?He MANIPULATED them!He didn't ask their help,he used them to his own ends.They were just too gullible not to see through it.

And just saying "Traya will just instakill him." isn't going to cut it either.

That's bullshit. You cannot refute my argument with the same principal, DE Luke. That's Logical Fallacy and it renders you invalid. Where the hell is your proof to refute my claim? Hmm?

Oh I see. Just like he did with Mace?

Um . . . He didn't manipulate the Jedi, he killed them. Same with the CIS. He betrayed them. And with the Republic, they were following orders. All he did was betray anyone. When it came to that part, he wasn't manipulating.

Why not? Because you said that "Traya can't instakillhim"?

That doesn't cut it either, now does it? You lack as much proof as I do. Stop trying to make yourself sound like you have the upperhand here because you do NOT!

We know Sidious has the same ability as Traya and has used it to a far greater degree...he can use it on her just the same

Originally posted by Lightsnake
We know Sidious has the same ability as Traya and has used it to a far greater degree...he can use it on her just the same

I'm sorry, but where did he use this in RotS and who said he had the same ability in RotS, Lightsnake?

Wow,calm down Xavius.And you think your doing any better?You saying Traya will instakill him,end of story,is NOT an argument.And did I say he manipulted the Jedi?No.You said he 'had help' and I replied that he manipulated them into HELPING him.I didn't say that he manipulted the Jedi(though he did manipulate Anakin)And how was the Senate following orders?Dooku himself said that Sidious was MANIPULATING the Senate.And where is YOU proff to refute MY claim?All you said was "Traya will instakill him.",you call that proof?She killed three Master;s who knew NOTHING about how to counter an attack like that,the didn't study under the Sith,so how would they?Sidious IS a Sith,he's learned just about every secret there about them that there is.He KNOWS the Sith,the Jedi DON'T.The only person here that is full of bullshit is you.And my PROOF renders you unsupported assumptions useless.

Originally posted by Xavius
I'm sorry, but where did he use this in RotS and who said he had the same ability in RotS, Lightsnake? It's in DE, and it went from post-RotS to about RotJ or some timeframe near there.

Granted, noone as he used it in between the time of ROTS and the OT, but he's described to have mastered quite a few secrets of the Sith by then.

Originally posted by DE Luke
Wow,calm down Xavius.And you think your doing any better?You saying Traya will instakill him,end of story,is NOT an argument.And did I say he manipulted the Jedi?No.You said he 'had help' and I replied that he manipulated them into HELPING him.I didn't say that he manipulted the Jedi(though he did manipulate Anakin)And how was the Senate following orders?Dooku himself said that Sidious was MANIPULATING the Senate.And where is YOU proff to refute MY claim?All you said was "Traya will instakill him.",you call that proof?She killed three Master;s who knew NOTHING about how to counter an attack like that,the didn't study under the Sith,so how would they?Sidious IS a Sith,he's learned just about every secret there about them that there is.He KNOWS the Sith,the Jedi DON'T.The only person here that is full of bullshit is you.And my PROOF renders you unsupported assumptions useless.


Listen to me very carefully because I'm only going to say it one more time.


You CANNOT sit here and say that Traya's instakill won't work on Sidious and claim that's your proof against me saying it will work.

Your statement is an assumption just like mine. I can dig past your pseudo linguistics and see that all you still have is that f*cking statement.

How can you retort against a claim that has no proof, when you're using a claim that is proofless yourself?

You don't have proof. You have stupidity, but not proof.

This is RotS Sidious. By this time, he did not know how to utilize instakill or he would have done it to Agen, Kit, Sassee, Mace and Yoda. He didn't.

Traya HAD the power to utilize instakill. Saying that Sidious could block it while lacking proof is an assumption in itself. Technically, you're a hypocrite.

he would have used it on those guys? Yoda is hands down the strongest Jedi ever and he's learned to block just about anything...the 'if he knew it, he'd have used it' argument doesn't always work. Perhaps Sidious wanted to kill them in a more personal manner.

Though, like I said, Sidious by now has mastered more than a few of the Sith secrets

Originally posted by Lightsnake
he would have used it on those guys? Yoda is hands down the strongest Jedi ever and he's learned to block just about anything...the 'if he knew it, he'd have used it' argument doesn't always work. Perhaps Sidious wanted to kill them in a more personal manner.

Though, like I said, Sidious by now has mastered more than a few of the Sith secrets


A personal matter? He didn't even know them! Sidious didn't know how to instakill by RotS. That's ridiculous now.

He's already managing to spar with Yoda and he's mastered most of the techniques of the ancients, he's already a supremely powerful Sith who was described as a 'black hole in the force' circa ROTS

To quote Sidious's thoughts, he'd been waiting to kill the Jedi period for a long time...it's just like why Kun never blasted Vodo with the amulet.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He's already managing to spar with Yoda and he's mastered most of the techniques of the ancients, he's already a supremely powerful Sith who was described as a 'black hole in the force' circa ROTS

To quote Sidious's thoughts, he'd been waiting to kill the Jedi period for a long time...it's just like why Kun never blasted Vodo with the amulet.

Then he would have instakilled them. It's that simple. He never wanted to risk his life dueling Yoda or whatnot or anyone else. Why risk his life if he has to duel? Why not instakill? You don't have proof that he did. Find me some and then that'll be done. He learned alot yes, but it says nowhere that he could instakill.

Yoda would have blocked or countered whatever he could've done and for whatever reason, Sidious preferred to use his saber. Why didn't Traya use her instakill on Sion when they first met? Why didn't Kun use his amulet on Vodo? Why didn't Kun use his instakill on Ulic?

And force drain is something he started doing shortly thereafter with Byss, there's no reason to assume he learned it in between ROTS and a short interim. And this ability isn't a direct instakill, it's force drain.

Notice how Sion was under Traya later on in the game? Sion was another puppet to Traya. The Exile makes that clear. Why would she need to kill such a powerful entity when she could use him?

Sidious could not have had a powerful enough drain. He would have used that instead of Lightning at the beginning when Yoda walked into his office. He wouldn't have expected it. He knew the four Jedi were a risk to fight in his office as well . . . Why not instakill them? It's ridiculous to assume he could instakill during RotS. He would have been the Uber Lord.

At that point, given her time with the exile, her views could have radically changed considering she wanted to lure the Exile to Malachor.

And Sidious prefers lightning, so? Yoda didn't hurl his saber at Sidious, either. And this ability is Force Drain and it isn't an instakill, nor is ridiculous to assume Sidious knows it considering his power and ability. And possibly he didn't instakill the jedi in the office because lightsaber scarred bodies are easier to explain than bodies without marks or for whatever reason George wanted

Yeah, and she had Sion at Malachor with her. Views changing? I think not.

Lightsaber scarred bodies are easier to explain than markless bodies? Erm . . . Sure. I'm sure that's exactly what Lucas thought. If Sidious had instakill, he would have used it at least once. Lucas already said that the death of those Jedi displayed Sidious' power. If Sidious knew that by then, Lucas would have displayed it as a showcase for his power.

He didn't know it yet.

Except I doubt Lucas even knows an instakill force attack called force drain exists.

Hopefully not. That's even more reason for Sidious not to know it in RotS.

Originally posted by Xavius
Listen to me very carefully because I'm only going to say it one more time.


You CANNOT sit here and say that Traya's instakill won't work on Sidious and claim that's your proof against me saying it will work.

Your statement is an assumption just like mine. I can dig past your pseudo linguistics and see that all you still have is that f*cking statement.

How can you retort against a claim that has no proof, when you're using a claim that is proofless yourself?

You don't have proof. You have stupidity, but not proof.

This is RotS Sidious. By this time, he did not know how to utilize instakill or he would have done it to Agen, Kit, Sassee, Mace and Yoda. He didn't.

Traya HAD the power to utilize instakill. Saying that Sidious could block it while lacking proof is an assumption in itself. Technically, you're a hypocrite.

No... your wrong.

Saying 'Trayas instakill will work on Sidious' is a positive statement. Saying that it wont work is a negative, the natural position of skepticism. If you cant prove up that Trayas instakill would indeed work on Sidious, than he is right by default.

Absence of Proof isn't proof of Absence, GV.

He isn't correct by default. Each side lacks proof. What If my side happened to be right and you defaulted him as correct? That's a contradiction right there and a flaw within the laws of debating.

Niether of us are correct until proof is shown. Bottom line. What you just said is complete and utter Logical Fallacy.

I doubt either of us is going to find proof of this, so I say we drop it.

I say we go with my idea of whoever shoots off their force attack first wins

But then again I'm an idiot, so...

Originally posted by Xavius
Absence of Proof isn't proof of Absence, GV.

He isn't correct by default. Each side lacks proof. What If my side happened to be right and you defaulted him as correct? That's a contradiction right there and a flaw within the laws of debating.

Niether of us are correct until proof is shown. Bottom line. What you just said is complete and utter Logical Fallacy.

I doubt either of us is going to find proof of this, so I say we drop it.

*sigh*

No absence of proof isnt proof of absence, but until you have proof then you have no material to debate with.

An example:

You say...'reindeers can fly.'

I say...'No reindeers cant fly you dumbass.'

I cant really prove that your wrong per se, but until you come with legitimate proof of your claim, I am right by default. Its a fundamental rule of debate...skepticism is always the correct position unless proven otherwise.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
*sigh*

No absence of proof isnt proof of absence, but until you have proof then you have no material to debate with.

An example:

You say...'reindeers can fly.'

I say...'No reindeers cant fly you dumbass.'

I cant really prove that your wrong per se, but until you come with legitimate proof of your claim, I am right by default. Its a fundamental rule of debate...skepticism is always the correct position unless proven otherwise.

Your analogy is virtually false, seeing as it does not fit into the perimeters of this argument and skepticism is not always the correct position within the Laws of debating. Because in itself, if you found the other side to be wrong, the skeptical side would basically be a flaw within itself to be correct without proper evidence. So, the skeptical side cannot be correct all the time or Skepticism would not be used.

We are disagreeing here. It's that simple.


Skepticism has a vista of boundaries and guidelines and they all refer to some fallible opinions.

Especially concerning this issue. Either side has proof so both sides stick to their opinions. That's rationally correct. Saying that the negatory side automatically throws over because of lack of proof is basically complete fallacy. Besides, you cannot challenge a position to proof if you do not contain proof within your own garrison. If you were to, it would be . . . Logical Fallacy!

Originally posted by Xavius
Your analogy is virtually false, seeing as it does not fit into the perimeters of this argument and skepticism is not always the correct position within the Laws of debating. Because in itself, if you found the other side to be wrong, the skeptical side would basically be a flaw within itself to be correct without proper evidence. So, the skeptical side cannot be correct all the time or Skepticism would not be used.

We are disagreeing here. It's that simple.


Skepticism has a vista of boundaries and guidelines and they all refer to some fallible opinions.

Especially concerning this issue. Either side has proof so both sides stick to their opinions. That's rationally correct. Saying that the negatory side automatically throws over because of lack of proof is basically complete fallacy. Besides, you cannot challenge a position to proof if you do not contain proof within your own garrison. If you were to, it would be . . . Logical Fallacy!

Xavius = IKC

What the hell is an IKC?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=79224

Originally posted by Xavius
What the hell is an IKC?
I believe he is referring to the fact that you act like IKC...

Not that he acts like him. He is IKC.

Originally posted by Count Kent
Not that he acts like him. He is IKC.
No... because IKC is back and IKC is a much better debater than Xavius. If Xavius wasn't a friend of DarkC I might say more, but DarkC pwns so I'll say nothing.

I hate DarkC. He's a noob. And guess what. IKC was also friends with DarkC.

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
No... because IKC is back and IKC is a much better debater than Xavius. If Xavius wasn't a friend of DarkC I might say more, but DarkC pwns so I'll say nothing.

You can say what you want to me, but don't expect me to sit here and take your shit.

I'm all ears, JM.

Originally posted by Count Kent
I hate DarkC. He's a noob. And guess what. IKC was also friends with DarkC.

You're the last person who should be calling anybody a Noob.

Originally posted by Xavius
You can say what you want to me, but don't expect me to sit here and take your shit.

I'm all ears, JM.
I'd feel weird insulting a grown man who is an M.D and undoubtedly has a much better education than I do... what bothers me about you is you're rudeness.

Originally posted by Count Kent
I hate DarkC. He's a noob. And guess what. IKC was also friends with DarkC. STFU NOOB

I wasn't being rude, I was being blunt. You decided to be rude first, actually.



What is that? If you want to say something to me, say it.

Originally posted by Xavius
I wasn't being rude, I was being blunt. You decided to be rude first, actually.



What is that? If you want to say something to me, say it.
Ok let me put it this way... you're aggressive in you're arguments. In this way you are like IKC. Motoko didn't agree with you so you hammer her with unneeded insults. It's both annoying and stupid.

Originally posted by Xavius


No, your wrong, and you hardly even make sense. Your an M.D. ? I very much doubt that.




My analogy is not false, because you have as much proof of saying 'Traya can instakill Sids' as you do of saying 'reindeers can fly'. True, skepticism isnt always correct, but you have to prove us wrong first. If you have no proof, then I am naturally correct because your the one that made a positive statement, Im just being skeptical.

I feel like I am repeating myself....



This doesnt even make sense.



You are the one that made a positive statement, only you have no proof to back it up. Please dont waste my time, Im just repeating an established law of reason, if you argue against it than you are a fool.



No, you dont have proof.

Traya has only shown her instakill ability works against some jedi masters, this is no proof that it would work on somone like Sidious who has considerably more knowledge and power.

I have no proof that you are wrong, but that doesnt matter. Unless you can back up your claim, your whole point is moot. I dont see why you cant get this through your head.

Originally posted by DE Luke
Show me where.Show me some 'real' proof.Oh right,there isn't!Only your illogical opinion!Who's the fool again?Oh yeah,you.


play battlefront 1. all the jedi can block missles

what
not in BFII, and that is better than battlefront one.

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
what
not in BFII, and that is better than battlefront one. actaully they can block wrist launched rockets they've blocked jango's and boba's (trust me i've done this)

yeah, but not full blow ultra rocket launchers, or just regular rocket launchers.

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
yeah, but not full blow ultra rocket launchers, or just regular rocket launchers. true... but when i'm playing a jedi or sith i just jump out the damn way

haha, i don't get shot, my average kills per game is 348 because i jack up the reinforcements to 500, haha.

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
haha, i don't get shot, my average kills per game is 348 because i jack up the reinforcements to 500, haha. i dont need reinforcments to kill the entire army singlehandely i may be a noob at this forum but i am a god in bf2

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
Ok let me put it this way... you're aggressive in you're arguments. In this way you are like IKC. Motoko didn't agree with you so you hammer her with unneeded insults. It's both annoying and stupid.

What . . . Yah like her or something?

What is it that you do around here?

Originally posted by Xavius
What . . . Yah like her or something?

What is it that you do around here? he's just lonely

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
No, your wrong, and you hardly even make sense. Your an M.D. ? I very much doubt that.

Somehow, I managed to not give a shit what you think.






What in the f*ck are you talking about? Are you making this up along the way or something? When proof is not provided, skepticism is not always the automatically correct position. If that were true, there'd be no point in debating upon opinions, but only given facts. And everyone knows that's bullshit.





You are. That's the problem.








Is this some sort of idiotic joke? If I state an opinion and I don't have proof, and you come into the thread and say YOUR opinion which goes against mine and doesn't have proof as well, you're not automatically right. Jesus, it's Logical Fallacy.




Jedi Masters = Human
Sidious = Human

Traya + Instakill = Death of Jedi

Traya + Instakill = Death of Sidious

Now, I'm not saying it'll work 100%, but she is going up against RotS Sidious, who was not quite at full power yet and there is not evidence of him being able to use his instakill during that time period. And seeing as in this particular predicament, Traya CAN use it and Sidious cannot, and Sidious is a Human like a Jedi Master . . . It is safe to assume that she could utilize her Instakill on Sidious.



So is yours. Damn, you're pretty arrogant.

You can't refute my proofless point with another proofless point and state you're automatically right. Hello? That's damn ridiculous! Especially when you haven't made any figurative points against my claim that are even sufficient to any degree to even deteriorate my opinions and claims by one bit.

Stop using this lame, phony excuse that you're automatically right and try actually putting up a relevant argument instead of this semantics bullshit.

Basically, Stop dancing around the point.

We have no clue on this Instakill or how it Works

Originally posted by Xavius
What . . . Yah like her or something?

What is it that you do around here?
No at least not the way you are implying... sort of hard to do over a online forum.

What do I do around here? I watch as this pathetic sub forum deteriorates by the day.

Is it safe to assume she can use her instakill before Sidious kills her with another attack, if he doesn't know the drain which, considering he's a devouring darkness and a black hole in the force?

Sidious is already powerful enough to fight the strongest Jedi Master ever...Traya's a bit over her head

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
No at least not the way you are implying... sort of hard to do over a online forum.

What do I do around here? I watch as this pathetic sub forum deteriorates by the day.

Actually, It's quite easy.




In essence, you do nothing then.

Originally posted by Xavius




Okay.





Just because you dont seem to understand the concept, doesnt make it wrong. When proof or atleast valid reasoning is not provided, your argument is moot. Im not the one making claims here, is this concept beyond you somehow? Oh and yes there is no point in debating about opinions, nothing gets accomplished.

Pizza vs Steak... which taste better?

Do you really think anything worthwhile would come out of a debate like this?




For a supposed M.D. you sure are immature. And once again, Im not arguing on either side of the debate. Im just pointing out that your arguments for Traya winning, have no proof, and are therefore invalid. Skepticism prevails in the absence of proof, as I have already explained multiple times. Kreias instakill ability cant be used in this debate, without sufficient evidence backing why it could work on Sidious.



This is what I was asking for, an actual attempt at proving why the instakill would work in this context. Unfortunately, your argument is fallacious.

Did my comment about power and knowledge go completely over your head? The fact that Sidious is of the same race as the jedi masters, is completely irrelevent. You have to prove why the instakill would work on somone with Sidious' power and knowledge, and I really dont see how you could support that theory, being we know so little about the instakill and how it works.

In short, Kreias instakill is an unknown, and we cant just assume it would work just because in your opinion it would.

Continue the Sids vs Kreia debate, without resorting to useless speculation.

Don't attempt to degrade my intelligence. It's foolish. I'm not the one making shit up here. If I make a claim that is an opinion, you cannot sit here and expect to be right by posting another opinion. It's complete Logical Fallacy. You're sitting here directly lying to me. You look like a total moron.



So, by your twisted Logic, I come and say Pizza tastes better. You come in and say your skeptical view, being that steak tastes better. So, because you were the skeptic in the argument, Steak automatically tastes better?

^ That's looks outright ridiculous, doesn't it?




MD's aren't deities. Go away with that.

You're retort - going against me saying it WON'T work is EQUALLY INVALID. Are you even grasping that concept yet? Or do I have to spoon feed it to you?

Yuo have no evidence declaring how it wouldn't work on Sidious. Actually, it's the other way around. If you have no evidence to slot out my opinion and you're only clashing my opinion with another Opinion, we've stalemated. Stop thinking you've won by some pseudo default. It's ridiculous.





Hahaha! My turn!

No, it's not so much irrelevant. This is a known reason for a working drain to be administered upon Sidious. What we know about the instakill says it all with the title; It instantly kills! It killed extremely powerful Jedi Masters and Sidious wasn't extremely powerful in RotS like he is later on.

I'm sorry, but do you even HAVE a valid argument on how the Instakill would not work? Y'know . . . Besides the irrelevant phony guidelines you like to slap down in an attempt to escape the core of the actual debate.

That's exactly what you're doing. It's going to be funny seeing you deny it . . . Again.



We can't just assume it would not work because in your opinion, it would NOT. Her instakill is an unknown? Let's see . . . It instakilled Jedi Masters. Instantly. Get it yet?



Like I mentioned earlier, quit dancing around the point. You're embarassing yourself utterly.


Funny, I checked it and you didn't reply to everything I said.

Why is that, GV?

Originally posted by Xavius





I wouldnt attempt to degrade your intelligence, if you were actually intelligent.

Do you realize how foolish you sound? Okay...lets go over this again.

When you make the statement, "Traya can use her instakill to defeat Sidious." That is what is called a positive.

When I am skeptical of that claim, that is what is called a negative.

Im *not* saying this method is infallible, but until you actually give some proof that your claim is true...skepticism prevails. This is in accordance with the scientific method. Im afraid you are the one that looks like a total moron, sir.





WTF ?

If I came in and said, 'the Steak tastes better', that is a positive. Your logic is completely unrelated to what we are talking about.






They arent deities, but I wouldnt expect them to be calling people names on an internet forum either.



I never said that it not working on Sidious was infallible truth, all Im saying is until you prove otherwise we cant just assume it *would* work as opposed to it *not* working. The logic doesnt go both ways sorry. If we just assumed that peoples theorys were automatically true, without evidence of it, how would we acquire true knowledge? We wouldnt.







...


Do you really think 'It instantly kills' applies to all situations? When in the history of SW has ever a technique been proven to be unblockable? Support your theory that it is unblockable or otherwise prove that it would work against an opponent of Sidious' magnitude.






If sound logic is 'phony guidelines to a debate', then sure Im guilty.



That is only proof that it would work against jedi of comparable strength or weaker. The power has limits, and those limits arent defined yet. Or are you going to tell me the instakill is unlimited power? Kreia could wipe out the entire universe if she wanted to?



Embarassing myself? I think an M.D. who comes to an internet site, debates with random people who have much less education than himself, and *still* gets completely pwned is the only embarassment here.

You fail to realize that she may not be able to insta-kill Sith Lords After all why not do it to Sion or Nihilus when he confronted her.

Originally posted by Hokage Yoda
You fail to realize that she may not be able to insta-kill Sith Lords After all why not do it to Sion or Nihilus when he confronted her.


Traya needed to use Sion. Notice how later on in the game, Sion is virtually under Traya's wing? They're talking . . . Walking around, and he was in the Dark Academy with her on Malachor.


Yes, because Traya is dumb enough to off a Sith Lord that can seemingly not die.

Childish insults. Disregarded. Let's move on now.



Attempted, yet failed verbal degration. Let's continue.



Traya can use her instakill. + Traya can't use her instakill = Debate over opinion. No side automatically wins. Get that through your head.



Even though I am a Medical Doctor, Science is a theory. Some laws in Science are fallible even though it is a working system through theory. This is a debate. The laws of debating are as follows:

Opinion VS Opinion = Debate.

No side wins until valid proof is PROVIDED on one side. If there are two opinions, no one side can virtually be a given victor. One side has to provide proof to smash the other sides theory.






No, no, no . . . But, by your logic, If I'm challenging the Pizza with a negative, than the Steak has to win! It has to! That's what you're telling me.

"I think Steak tastes better than Pizza."

"I think Pizza tastes better than Steak."


^ Spot the negative, GV?






This isn't TV, bro. We aren't perfect.



.





Okay, If I say "Traya can use Instakill on Sidious" And you say "No, she cannot". You do not automatically win. We STALEMATE.

You have to provide proof that puts my theory to shit and I have to do the same to you. So we stalemate. No sides wins by default. That's ridiculous.

Whose ever blocked a Force Grip? A Force push? Where's the proof a Force Drain is blockable? Especially one of heavy amounts of power? I mean, there were THREE deadly Jedi Masters. Why didn't they even try to block it? Maybe because they could not.












Sound logic? I think not, GV.





Now you're going to assume? Damn.

Who said she could wipe out the whole universe and who said it had unlimited power? All I said was Sidious wasn't as powerful as he would become later on after RotS and he may still be vulnerable to such a powerful Sith Lord such as Traya. I mean, she proved her power by instantly destroying three Jedi Council Members.







Self proclaimed pwnage? You arrogant shit. I can't believe you. You're not pwning anyone here. And I'm person like everyone else for f*cks sakes. You're some random guy who's coming to internet site debating with random people as well, Hypocrite.

I have knowledge in Scientific Biology and Medicines. It does NOT make me Uber.

Originally posted by e.l,m,t,i,(r k)
he's just lonely
Please... don't spout garbage like this.

Actually you kn who Xavier soudns like? Sorgo. Im not implying hes a sock thoguh. Im just saying.

First, I'm IKC . . . Now, I'm Sorgo?

What is this, anyways?

Originally posted by Xavius






You mean, degradation ? What the hell do you call stating I am a moron ? Hypocrite much?




Okay...Im sick of arguing this with you.

burden of proof fallacy

You *cannot* turn over the burden of proof on *me*, to do so would be logical fallacy



See above. It is still my responsibility to disprove your arguments, which I have been doing. But you cannot say that the debate is a stalemate because the negative fails to offer proof. That is called, the negative proof fallacy.




Well first of all, I meant that example as an example of conflicting opinions. BOTH conclusions you could make, are invalid because it is not backed by proper logical reasoning or evidence. This example is unrelated to a proper debate.

And you are equating the Pizza and Steak with :

'Traya can use the instakill on Sidious'

'Traya cannot use the instakill on Sidious'

That is fallacious, and you know it.




I have put your theory to shit, your argument is plagued with assumptions and speculation.

To say it is a stalemate, because I cannot *prove* you are wrong, is the burden of proof fallacy.





First of all, force grip, push and drain doesnt instakill like Kreias move does. The entire problem of this, is you are just assuming Kreia can wave her hand and Sidious simply dies. That is a ridiculous assumption, being Sidious is far more knowledgable and powerful than some jedi masters.

Even if they couldnt block it, your missing the point, where is the proof that *Sidious* cant block it? You have absolutely none.

Kreias instakill, once again, is an unknown, that hasnt been properly defined yet, so we cant apply it in the context of this fight.



Worthless comment, 'disregarded'.



You seem to think Kreias ability has unlimited power, because you said 'it instantly kills' and expect that to apply to all situations. This is absurd. You have absolutely no proof or even support that it would work in all situations, all we have is that one instance it was used, when those jedi masters were killed. So now anything that is capable of killing is now an 'instakill'? Do you see the absurdity of your logic?

Also, just an observation, if Kreias 'instakill' works in all situations then why didnt she use it to defeat the Exile? Why didnt she use it to defeat Sion & Nihilus when they attacked her on Malachor? Its 'instakill' right? Infallible?



That much is obvious.

Originally posted by Xavius
First, I'm IKC . . . Now, I'm Sorgo?

What is this, anyways?

Welcome to the Vs. forum... *dies*

Xavius has been here since 2004. Anyone claiming he's a sock of another member is, quite possibly, an idiot. Read his registry date.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Welcome to the Vs. forum... *dies*

Xavius has been here since 2004. Anyone claiming he's a sock of another member is, quite possibly, an idiot. Read his registry date.

Thank you. Uhm . . . What the hell is that thing in your signature?

Originally posted by Xavius
First, I'm IKC . . . Now, I'm Sorgo?



hey heres an idea.

Actually read what I said before commenting on it.

Typo. I was typing far too fast.





Ironically, you stating you've won the argument when both opinions are heed against each other is Logical Fallacy in itself. You must provide proof to destroy my claim. I must do the same with you. That's . . . the PURPOSE . . . OF . . . D E B A T I N G .

Hypocrite much?






Of course it does! You don't win! If you challenge my opinion with another opinion and you fail to provide proof, you're honestly winning zero, GV.






Fine:

George can put Olives on his Pizza.

George cannot put Olives on his Pizza.

^ You're saying you challenging my opinion with one just as open and fallacious grants you a certain victory? Logical Fallacy. Right there.

BTW, The previous analogy I did is perfectly equate to the Traya debate.






The burden of proof also has another slate to it's theory, GV.

"Can you prove she CANNOT use her instakill?"

Just like Futurama:

"Can you prove it won't happen?"


You put my theory to shit? You have no evidence! You perpetually dance around the point and try to fall my side of the debate (WITHOUT ARGUING THE POINT) so you won't have to put up a fight against my claim.





Why are you ignoring what you said? You asked me "When have you seen a force power that couldn't be blocked?"

I answered you.

And, what the f*ck? How do you know Sidious possesses more knowledge than these Masters? You can't assume that. Hypocrite much, GV?

Kreia could force drain Sidious and he would die. What could stop her? How do you even KNOW he possesses knowledge of how to deal with that? It's a ridiculous assumption to assume that by the time of RotS he had knowledge of the Instakill. He would have used it if he knew it and there is no evidence that he can block it. That simple.




Three force sensitives, who have spent most of their life studying the guarding side of the force. The protective side of the force FELL to Traya's instakill.

Sidious, whom practices OFFENSIVE techniques and not very many defensive ones, is more vulnerable to this attack.




Wait . . . Did I say it could apply to all situations? You assuming again, GV? Yup.

Traya killed three Force Sensitive Humans INSTANTLY.

What would be the trouble with ONE force sensitive Human? Especially RotS Sidious, whom has alot of knowledge but not as much by that time.



Works in all situations? Once again, who said that?

She didn't want to kill the Exile, she didn't WANT to kill Sion and she may have not possessed the knowledge of Instakill by the time Nihilus and Sion betrayed her. Either that or she wanted to use them later on, seeing as she is so manipulative.





Your awful stupidity is obvious.

Originally posted by KMC Dark Lord
hey heres an idea.

Actually read what I said before commenting on it.


Here's an idea.


Do something useful around this site instead of criticizing people.

If you can't debate, you shouldn't be here.

oh xavius.... you are my hero.


P.S. haha JM you're Avatar kinda sorta looks like michael jackson

Originally posted by Xavius
Here's an idea.


Do something useful around this site instead of criticizing people.

If you can't debate, you shouldn't be here.

ha ha ha ha,, heres an idea. Actually know what your talking about.

Originally posted by KMC Dark Lord
ha ha ha ha,, heres an idea. Actually know what your talking about.

What a pathetic retort. Try again next time.

Originally posted by Xavius





No, your wrong again. I am commiting no logical fallacy, it is you who are commiting...lets say it again:

burden of proof fallacy





Okay, by your logic I could say:

'George Lucas made a direct statement that "ROTS Sids is more powerful than Kreia".'

Your retort would obviously be:

'Prove it.'

By your logic I could say:

'Prove that he *didnt* say it.'

Conclusion: OMFG stalemate!!!11

Do you see how fallacious your reasoning is? Let me know when you want to debate at a level beyond elementary school.



By saying 'George *can* put olives on his pizza.'

You are attempting to divine a truth, and truth is an elistist club reserved for the worthy Im afraid.

The answer to your analogy is, that George cannot put olives on his pizza, until proof is provided.

Now ofcourse we *do* have reasonable evidence that a person is capable of putting olives on his pizza, but your assuming there is no evidence so again the default position is skepticism.







See above.

And you gain your knowledge of logical reasoning from futurama? That was meant as a joke, illogical reasoning is often humorous. LMAO.



We are unsure if the ones you stated are blockable or not either. What I meant was, when has a power ever been *proven* to be unblockable? Way to miss the point.



Oh yeah, some jedi masters knew more about sith techniques than Sidious, who has studied ancient sith knowledge his whole life.



Oh yeah, great argument, 'Kreia would force drain Sidious and he would die'.

Like I said before, Sidious has studied ancient sith knowledge his whole life. And even if he didnt know about it, you have yet to prove the instakill is capable of defeating a powerful sith lord like Sidious.



'The guarding side of the force'? WTF? Oh this is rich. Please refrain from pulling things out of your ass.



Once again, the fact that Sidious is human like the masters is irrelevent. This is all related to power and knowledge, not race.



Your the one who stated that Kreias move simply 'instakills' and that was the end of it. I believe that would make you a... hypocrite .





Okay so she just fights you (the exile) for no reason at all? If she didnt want to kill you, then how come you die if you arent able to defeat her?

And yes she *did* want to kill Sion, she even stated that she used you(the exile) to get rid of the sith lords for her. Obviously she was incapable of doing it herself.



LMAO. You have been owned, give it up Dr. Xavius.

Nicely done.

As for my personal opinion:

There is no proof that Sidious could block Traya's instakill. None at all. Does that mean that it's true? Not necessarily. Otherwise, Traya could defeat any Sith Lord in personal combat.

In my opinion:

The power of those three Jedi Masters - combined - is a lot. I believe that Traya could kill Sidious as of RotS using her instakill. However, it isn't concrete - so I dunno.

Does this make her the most powerful Sith Lord? Not really. Afterall, in terms of sheer power, a Force Storm > Traya's Instakill. But she might have the edge in personal combat.

I'd say Traya has this with her instakill.

And how about Sidious blasting her to hell with his force lightning before she even pulls it off?

Erm, then this entire fight is a western style shootout...

Personally I'd be a bit more inclined to favor the man who's been summoning up the spirits of the Sith and finding their secrets and artifacts for years

The answer is obvious

Traya Pwns.

Originally posted by zephiel7
The answer is obvious

Traya Pwns. The answer is obvious


Your an idiot.



Let's see some proof to back up your claims,besides "Oh Traya will just instakill him because she did it to three Jedi Masters who knew NOTHING of how to counter it.".

Well... she did have the force telekenisis to knock them around like rag dolls. Could RotS Palpatine do that?

Originally posted by DE Luke
The answer is obvious


Your an idiot.



Let's see some proof to back up your claims,besides "Oh Traya will just instakill him because she did it to three Jedi Masters who knew NOTHING of how to counter it.".

Well consider the fact that these three masters had far more xperience with battling dark Jedi than any of the PT Jedi.

Despite this fact, Traya walked into the room, and swept them off their feet. Vrook attempted to resist, and all three of them were instant killed. If she were able to apply this technique on three powerful masters simultaneously, then Sidious stands no chance.

Sidious was unable to defeat either Mace, and his battle against Yoda was not a clear victory. With Traya the battle was a clear victory on her part.

The instant kill was described to be a technique to which "there was no defence." Sure ignore the fact she used them against three Jedi masters. Ignore the fact that she learned ancient sith techniques at Malachor 5.

Sidious demonstrates in ROTS the FANTASTIC ability to use force lightning. At least I can show how Traya was able to defeat three masters.

You currently have nothing to work with other than ZOMG SIDIOUS RULEZZZ.

GO DE Luke and your fantastic ability to reason! Very nice man...

http://members.home.nl/awoude/pwnt.jpg

More experience? Yoda's...nine hundred and his triumphs over the darkside are described as 'legion'...Mace's purple lightsaber was said to be the last sights of countless darksiders and evil beings across the galaxy.

Either Mace or yoda would kill Traya in seconds, don't kid yourself

Originally posted by zephiel7
Well consider the fact that these three masters had far more xperience with battling dark Jedi than any of the PT Jedi.

Despite this fact, Traya walked into the room, and swept them off their feet. Vrook attempted to resist, and all three of them were instant killed. If she were able to apply this technique on three powerful masters simultaneously, then Sidious stands no chance.

Sidious was unable to defeat either Mace, and his battle against Yoda was not a clear victory. With Traya the battle was a clear victory on her part.

The instant kill was described to be a technique to which "there was no defence." Sure ignore the fact she used them against three Jedi masters. Ignore the fact that she learned ancient sith techniques at Malachor 5.

Sidious demonstrates in ROTS the FANTASTIC ability to use force lightning. At least I can show how Traya was able to defeat three masters.

You currently have nothing to work with other than ZOMG SIDIOUS RULEZZZ. Yeah,nice proof you have there,too bad it's crap.And tell me where it said "it was a technique to which there was no defence.",oh right,THERE ISN'T!Sure ,ignore the facts that by the time of ROTS Sidious already knew almost ALL of the Sith secrets,ignore the fact that he was also able to kill three of the Greatest Jedi Council Masters of the PT in a saber fight.And you say that the Jedi of the PT are weaker than the ones in KOTOR,really?Then why is Mace the sceond best of the ENTIRE Order?Yeah,you really know how to back your claims,zephiel.You have nothing to say accept "Zomg!!11!Tr4y4 w1l1 l3e4t l34th3r f4(3 l3e(4us3 sh3 1s teh Ul3ER!!11!!".

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6911/leavetheinternet1hp.png

Umm if Traya's in. kill was so powerful why didn't she just use it on the Exile?

Could I have a direct quote of this? "Legion" is very ambiguous. Legion of what anyways? Yoda never faced an instantkill. He has shown an ability to counter Sith lightning, but by the time of PT, remenants of the ancient Sith (including Malachor 5) was ridiculously small or zero. Traya has the distinct advantage of Malachor 5 and the instantkill technique "born of the ancient sith"



From all the details of the PT, the only darksiders that Mace ever fought were Dooku, Assaaj, and Sidious. The others were poorly trained dark Jedi (ie., Sora Bulq). Revan and Malak had entire academies based on training only the strongest dark Jedi. They were picked only from the finest force users. Kavar, Vrook, and Zez Kai survived through this and Sion's Sith assassins. These were three masters who were under assault by the darkside almost every day. Nevertheless, Traya easily instantkilled them.

Could either Mace or Yoda defend themselves from "a technique to which there is no defence?"



You jest good man. You jest.

Please, order your points so they are distinguishable.

The other masters of the Jedi order are non issues. Being bested by clone troopers IMO doesn't look too good on your resume.

The quote is in KOTOR 2. It is stated in dialogue with Kreia.

Firstly Luke, I wouldn't really include Agen and Saesee as some of the greatest council members as of ROTS. I would rate Anakin, Kenobi, Yoda, Mace, Plo Koon, Kit Fisto, and pssibly Shaak Ti as greater then them. That's over half the council, not to mention non-council members such as Cin Drallig or Luminara Unduli.

And KOTOR and NJO councils pwn the council as of ROTS.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Please, order your points so they are distinguishable.

The quote is in KOTOR 2. It is stated in dialogue with Kreia. She says this to the Exile when they talk about how Nihilus destroys worlds.She NEVER says this after she uses her instakill.

@Kent:Read the ROTS novel,it states them being the best on the Council,thats why Mace asked them to accompany him on the way to arrest Palpatine.

I totally agree with Zephiel on this. Kavar was able to instantly put around a dozen of mercs into a stasis. This feat alone puts him above Mace or Yoda.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Could I have a direct quote of this? "Legion" is very ambiguous. Legion of what anyways? Yoda never faced an instantkill. He has shown an ability to counter Sith lightning, but by the time of PT, remenants of the ancient Sith (including Malachor 5) was ridiculously small or zero. Traya has the distinct advantage of Malachor 5 and the instantkill technique "born of the ancient sith"



From all the details of the PT, the only darksiders that Mace ever fought were Dooku, Assaaj, and Sidious. The others were poorly trained dark Jedi (ie., Sora Bulq). Revan and Malak had entire academies based on training only the strongest dark Jedi. They were picked only from the finest force users. Kavar, Vrook, and Zez Kai survived through this and Sion's Sith assassins. These were three masters who were under assault by the darkside almost every day. Nevertheless, Traya easily instantkilled them.

Could either Mace or Yoda defend themselves from "a technique to which there is no defence?"



You jest good man. You jest.

No, I don't jest. Your worship of Traya and underplaying the man down and out described as the strongest Jed ever just annoys me.


And Mace also fought...Uda-Khalid, Kar Vastor and numerous other throats. Proof those other Jedi 'routinely' fought Darksiders? Considering there were always numerous threats of dictators and Darksiders and Mace is one of the top duelists who ever lived, not only that: The PT JEdi were the strongest Jedi and Yoda is outright stated to have mastered pretty much every defensive force technique.

Oh? Legion? It means 'a lot'

So, blah blah blah, 'oh they lost a lot!'...no, they didn't. The Jedi possessed dozens to hundreds of Sith holocrons and artifacts kept carefully under control.

So, yeah, the two strongest Jedi ever, both of whom have faced the darkness many times and come away stronger, one of whom is the strongest Jedi ever? Traya's owned

I just want to say something about this "there is no defence" thing. First, just because she or all the people she knew did not know a defence against it doesn't mean there didn't exist one, one was developed, or that it works on every single person, like someone incredibly attuned with the force....

1. First of all they could not have mastered every darkside technique possible. The holocrons from Ossus were destroyed by Exar Kun! The Sith knowledge from Malachor 5 was lost when the planet was destroyed! How can they master a defense to techniques that they do not even know about?!

Your assumption that they mastered every possible defensive Jedi technique is false. Traya stated that her technique was born of the ancient Sith "that there was no defence." Hell, she defeated three of the most powerful masters of the Jedi order, simultaneously with that same technique.

2. Legion of what? Defeating a legion of infantry serving some random pathetic dark Jedi is hardly an impressive feat.

3.The fact remains that the PT council was stagnating.

From Mundi's mouth.

"But the Sith have been extinct for over a millenia!"

Doesn't seem they know much about Ancient Sith techniques does it?
They did not fight the continous battles against the darkside as the council from KOTOR did.

4. Your exageration of Windu and Yoda as the strongest Jedi ever is utterly false. DN Luke perhaps? Kyp Durron? Revan? You exaggerate their capabilities, when the circumstances themselves show how much experience they had with the Sith.

Traya wins. Perhaps Sidious by the time of DE, but DEFINATELY not ROTS.

Originally posted by DE Luke
She says this to the Exile when they talk about how Nihilus destroys worlds.She NEVER says this after she uses her instakill.

@Kent:Read the ROTS novel,it states them being the best on the Council,thats why Mace asked them to accompany him on the way to arrest Palpatine.

The instant kill that Traya used is exactly identical to that of Nihilus! They both drain the force from the opponent. Kavar, Vrook, and Zez Kai were described as being devoid of the force. Nihilus uses the exact same technique, draining the force from his victims.

Granted that Nihilus can use his technique on a MUCH larger scale, it does not eliminate the fact they are identical in nature.

You still haven't explained why the masters of PT were so easily gunned down. Three weak masters of a stagnating order is not an impressive addition to your kill count, I assure you.

Originally posted by zephiel7
1. First of all they could not have mastered every darkside technique possible. The holocrons from Ossus were destroyed by Exar Kun! The Sith knowledge from Malachor 5 was lost when the planet was destroyed! How can they master a defense to techniques that they do not even know about?!

Your assumption that they mastered every possible defensive Jedi technique is false. Traya stated that her technique was born of the ancient Sith "that there was no defence." Hell, she defeated three of the most powerful masters of the Jedi order, simultaneously with that same technique.

2. Legion of what? Defeating a legion of infantry serving some random pathetic dark Jedi is hardly an impressive feat.

3.The fact remains that the PT council was stagnating.

From Mundi's mouth.

"But the Sith have been extinct for over a millenia!"

Doesn't seem they know much about Ancient Sith techniques does it?
They did not fight the continous battles against the darkside as the council from KOTOR did.

4. Your exageration of Windu and Yoda as the strongest Jedi ever is utterly false. DN Luke perhaps? Kyp Durron? Revan? You exaggerate their capabilities, when the circumstances themselves show how much experience they had with the Sith.

Traya wins. Perhaps Sidious by the time of DE, but DEFINATELY not ROTS.

1. Sorry. Holocron singular. There're a LOT more holocrons.

2. No, actually: Because it says directly Yoda mastered every defensive and no proof her instakill is unblockable

3. Sorry, the PT Jedi were still the strongest. Golden Age.

4. When'd the KOTOR council fight continuous battles? One fight against Revan they were LOSING and Kun where...hm, no real dark jedi fighting....you were saying?

5. Until the PT times, Yoda was the strongest Jedi ever and it's DIRECTLY stated.

6. by ROTS Palp has actually been SUMMONING UP the spirits of the Ancient Sith lords to increase his knowledge and power.

The PT masters weren't weak. Ancient Jedi would be killed in their situation too. No Jedi Order heavily outweighs another. The PT may be the "Golden Age of the Jedi" but that doesn't mean a PT youngling > KOTOR Master. KOTOR was an age of war, but that doesn't mean a KOTOR youngling > PT Master.

Now let's look at Vrook, Kavar, and Zez-zez Kai.

Kavar - Leader of the Jedi Guardians before the Shadow War and even during the Jedi civil war. Guardians are attuned to combat, and their grandmaster would likely be very wise and powerful. Could be called the best duelist in the Order, because he was the best JG and the JGs were the duelists.

Vrook - Defecto leader of the Order in Vandar's and (possibly) Zhar's absence. This should put him fairly high.

Zez-zez Kai... honestly, I don't see him being better than Kolar or Fisto. Tiin... maybe.

Now, she managed to knock around all of them at once with force telekenisis. Could Sidious do this to three Council Members? 2 of which were quite strong.

Originally posted by zephiel7
The instant kill that Traya used is exactly identical to that of Nihilus! They both drain the force from the opponent. Kavar, Vrook, and Zez Kai were described as being devoid of the force. Nihilus uses the exact same technique, draining the force from his victims.

Granted that Nihilus can use his technique on a MUCH larger scale, it does not eliminate the fact they are identical in nature.

You still haven't explained why the masters of PT were so easily gunned down. Three weak masters of a stagnating order is not an impressive addition to your kill count, I assure you.

1.No it isn't,if it was,then she'd be EXACTLY like Nihilus.Hunger would consume here just like it did him.

2.No,he severed force connections to entire civilizations,Kreia just sucked the Force out of three Jedi Masters.

3.And you still haven't explained why you think Kreia's instakill will work on another Sith.And like I said,READ THE ROTS NOVEL!!!It states EXACTLY that they were some of the most powerful Jedi in the Entire Order.And as I remember,the Jedi of Kotor were stagnant aswell,they were waiting for the threat to reveal itself
when they should have found it themselves.

And Razielim,last time I checked,Sidious gave Yoda(who is stated as THE MOST POWERFUL JEDI IN HISTORY OF THE ENTIRE ORDER) a hell of a fight and came up on top.

Quotes cannot be used as conclusive proof. Provide feats and examples.