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no comment but personally id pick vader because he has instantkill attacks like force crush and he knows how to wear his opponents confidence and will

and also battle as in ship vs ship like vaders tie figher vs her in the x-wing, that 1 id say vader has far more experience like 20 years of piloting and obi wan in rotj claimed hes the best star pilot in the galaxy

Which Vader? Anyway, I would say Vader.

ESB vader, or ANH, note thought that the movies never showed vaders real powers in the OT, his crush can rip a tank apart and i dont know if its true but it is rumored that he does lightning differently, like it appears around you rather from your finger tips cuz it will short circut and kill him

How powerful in terms of power and lightsaber ability is Jaina in comparison to Jacen Solo? I've heard hes quite the bomb

yea but vader, look at him, even tho he is half of what he could be had he not sustained injuries he still has tremendous power and has instant kill attacks. his lightsaber form is forv 5 which normally requires 2 hands for its tremendous features and he executes it with one hand.

well jaina and jacen im not so sure but i dont think they can compare to their grandfather

I'm afraid you can never balance an OT Vader against NJO characters, PT you can at a stretch, but the OT and NJO worlds are too different to compare.

Jaina, but if this was ROTS Vader he would win

NJO = Cheat Mode of a Video game

I'd pair up Ancients against NJO

well how is she going to defend against an instant kill attack? vader is being underestimated here..

vader would crush her, iv read about her and shes nowhere near the mechanical vaders mastery of the force.

and vader IS slightly stronger than he was in the PT he was stronger than the presuit vader but he would have become stronger if he didnt get injuries.

and vader has far more experience than jaina in killing a jedi opponent.

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Jaina, but if this was ROTS Vader he would win

and why would ROTS vader win? the presuit one. he attacks and underestimates his opponent like obi wan. the OT Vader obviously stays calm in a fight and learns his enemy.

and since he knows jaina is his granddaughter he would not underestimate her, do you notice that especially vader when he fights he wears their confidence down?

the point is the presuit had the speed and the agility but the OT vader had mastery and brainsknowing what to do in a situation like this.
OT vaders force choke killed his imperial officer from quite a distance and being able to choke some one that far it owns pt vaders choke.

he couldnt even chock padme properly and shes still alive

n00b alert!

Anyway, if what I've heard about Vader defeating seven Jedi Masters at the same time is true, then he could probably take Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
n00b alert!

Anyway, if what I've heard about Vader defeating seven Jedi Masters at the same time is true, then he could probably take Sidious.

Uh what? The only 1 on 7 match I recall is Kyle vs. 7 Dark Jedi.

And Sidious wouldn't be able to take those jedi out? He took out Tinn, Fisto and Kolar in seconds. The jedi (only a few masters) that Vader took out were weaker, and Vader still struggled - he eventually needed help from his clone troopers to take out Tsui Choi, the only real threat out of the seven (who Sidious would likely take out in seocnds too). Seriously speaking, I could see Sidious taking out those 7 jedi in less than a minute, he would beat Vader.

In Purge. Although, they aren't really all at the same time, but still. It's impressive.

And Sidious and Vader are pretty close...

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Uh what? The only 1 on 7 match I recall is Kyle vs. 7 Dark Jedi.

Uh, WHAT!?

I don't recall Kyle beating seven Dark Jedi at once. Two at once, yes. He defeated the Seven Dark Jedi group individually aside from Pic and Gorc, who are basically one given they make up for each other's weaknesses, you know what I mean?

And in the Purge (?) comic, right after he gets put into the suit - he kills three of the Jedi while getting his hand cut off yet again. And, was being owned by the three Jedi remaining (one of the Jedi was betrayed by a fellow Jedi and killed). The Jedi would've killed him if a platoon of Clone troopers arrive hadn't arrived at the right moment, but they did - they killed off two of the remaining Jedi, and the last one, Tsui Choi, was suspended in the air by Vader during a jump attack, and shot down by the Clones. So, he does fight seven sort of, and kills three total. Though, they don't attack him simultaneously - it's like one right after the other, or being bombarded by objects by three of them.

If I remember right, though, Tsui Choi did use a lightsaber throw, and it hit Vader in the head, but only cut off some of his helmet.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
And Sidious wouldn't be able to take those jedi out? He took out Tinn, Fisto and Kolar in seconds. The jedi (only a few masters) that Vader took out were weaker, and Vader still struggled - he eventually needed help from his clone troopers to take out Tsui Choi, the only real threat out of the seven (who Sidious would likely take out in seocnds too). Seriously speaking, I could see Sidious taking out those 7 jedi in less than a minute, he would beat Vader.

We aren't talking about Vader vs. Sidious, smart guy.

'n00b alert!

Anyway, if what I've heard about Vader defeating seven Jedi Masters at the same time is true, then he could probably take Sidious.'

Isn't this what you said? Are you not implying that Vader would be able to take Sidious because of how he defeated 7 jedi at once?


















Smart guy.

Originally posted by ESB Vader
well how is she going to defend against an instant kill attack? vader is being underestimated here..

You mean the instakill attack that doesn't exist? When've we seen Vader use an instakill? Provide proof. It would've killed those Jedi in Purge easier without almost dying, and other Jedi he hunted down.

I was referring to lightsaber combat, not all around, but heck, maybe he can't do that either if what Advent said it true.

Well next time try to be clearer sweetness.

Sure thing, but cut me some slack, I running on almost no sleep.

lol I was just kidding.

Originally posted by Advent
You mean the instakill attack that doesn't exist? When've we seen Vader use an instakill? Provide proof. It would've killed those Jedi in Purge easier without almost dying, and other Jedi he hunted down.


force crush? idk if eaw is canon but vader does have force crush and said so by other sources and he learned it during the OT not during the purge.

and it mentioned that vader will one day be equal to sidious, source from RODV.

and vader taking on 7 masters? he was weak, only half of what he was in the OT and i didnt see him execute force grip.

and i seen him in a picture from a comic force grip his opponent and flung him in the air.

isnt Eaw canon? its like kotor 1 and 2 being made canon so there fore im assuming the events in eaw did take place, if it did
that proves vader has force crush and it rips tanks apart

and isnt force crush the upgraded power of grip? like storm from lightning.

mace windu executed it on grievious in the clone wars

Originally posted by ESB Vader
force crush? idk if eaw is canon but vader does have force crush and said so by other sources and he learned it during the OT not during the purge.

Force Crush is not an instakill, otherwise Grievous would be dead.



Vader only has 80% of Darth Sidious' power. Source: Lucas.



And what does this have to do with anything again?

Keep it to the point: Force Crush is not an instakill.



Great. . .

How's that an attack that "instantly kills" again? It's not? Okay. And we've seen Dooku fling people into the air. Who cares really?



No, "Eaw" isn't canon. EU is canon. There's a difference. "Eaw" isn't real, and isn't an acronym for "Expanded Universe".



No one is disputing canonicty, however, Force Crush is not an instakill!



Great deduction, my friend.

My words: No shit. And what does this have to do with the fact it's not an instakill?



Which didn't kill him.

Force Crush = not an instakill = you're wrong. There's nothing more to it.

hmm i know ok u got me there but isnt eaw in EU which is canon?
and yes i think ur right that crush isnt instant kill but the exile demonstrated in kotor2 that the crush lifts you in the air and u cant do anything.

if it was grip u still can force push vader but crush is the force around you pushing inwards towards the centre of gravity so technically you are caught in its wrath, the best defense to a crush is offense before the user executes it,

crush kills when the user commands it, yes i get your point it isnt instant but the reason i said its instant because well you get caught in its wrath, your body immobalised and it breaks everything in you.

about the flung in the air grip its like luke choking nihilus and slamming him on the ground, vader is possibly a master of choke and it will be possible he executes it on his victims

ok u did prove crush is not an insta kill but technically it is, like saying the whole force around you crushing every part of your body immobalising you.

In Boba Fett: Enemy of the Empire, Vader popped a (still living) severed head inside a box like a zit. That could count as an "instakill", I guess, although, it could be defended against, I would imagine.

you can use the force to block force crush. but you have to know its comng and be damned powerful

Are we getting into feat wars here?

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
you can use the force to block force crush. but you have to know its comng and be damned powerful


very true, the victim would have to offend to defend but crush is instant tho not an insta kill, crush can destroy humans and very effective on th battle field, vader only learned it when he recovered from his injuries which took him years

Crush's power depends on the user, it can be a sort of Insta-Kill by crushing their lungs, but it will take a while to die once that happens.

Look, and instakill is an attack that instantly kills or pretty much right away. If it takes awhile, it's no instakill. If it takes more than like 5 seconds, it's not an instakill.

If it can be defended against, which obviously it can - it's hardly is an instakill, if it were Mace Windu could've taken out Sidious with apparent ease. Force Crush didn't even kill a guy who has no Force power whatsoever coming from Mace Windu, who has demonstrated his Force ability numerous occasions. You can move out of the way of a Force crush anyways.

Point is, you'll die from it most likely, what Mace did was close the Armor around his Lungs, it wasn't a real Force Crush, which lifts the person from the ground, and makes their Lungs Explode

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Point is, you'll die from it most likely,

No, that is not the point. The point is that it's not an instakill attack, and you can:

1.) Defend.
2.) Dodge.

Show me where any relatively strong or mediocre Jedi has died from a Force crush.



No, it was a real Force crush. I know what Mace did, he jumped down and use it Grievous while he was getting into some ship. It was a Force crush, this is made obvious.

What Dooku did on Obi-Wan in The Invisible Hand was a Force Crush, the ability you have on Dark Side of KoToR 2 is Force Crush, what he did would be like grabbing his armor, and having it enclose on his internal organs, but instead by using the Force, so it was more of a Force Grip, a much weaker version

Force Crush lifts someone and crushes their Lungs and they eventually die

I never said it was an Insta-Kill, but LIKE one, don't accuse me of Dodging anything

Strong or Mediocre Jedi? Tons from cutscenes in the various games(not gameplay )

Originally posted by Advent
Look, and instakill is an attack that instantly kills or pretty much right away. If it takes awhile, it's no instakill. If it takes more than like 5 seconds, it's not an instakill.

If it can be defended against, which obviously it can - it's hardly is an instakill, if it were Mace Windu could've taken out Sidious with apparent ease. Force Crush didn't even kill a guy who has no Force power whatsoever coming from Mace Windu, who has demonstrated his Force ability numerous occasions. You can move out of the way of a Force crush anyways.


advent i said technically it is, the whole force around you is crushing your entire body, the exiles crush level is obviously higher than mace because her victims die from it, well instead of insta kill lets say its a "you will die" situation. even the mechanical vader has limitations and he has tremendous mastery of the force, with gl saying luke is what anakin is suppose to become, vader is half of njo luke.


and mace doesnt use it to kill its victims, vader does,NOT on any jedi in the purge because he cant even master grip and hasnt learn force crush

Originally posted by ESB Vader
advent i said technically it is, the whole force around you is crushing your entire body, the exiles crush level is obviously higher than mace because her victims die from it,

Gameplay galore. Canonically, the Exile doesn't even have Force crush. Even if you want to use gameplay as a reference, I could very well say the Exile is THE Force God because none of the enemies can block Force attacks. "Lol rolling save".

Gameplay = Not canon. Exile having Force crush at all = Not canon.

And, actually going by "technically" it's not. Technically, an instakill instantely kills. You can't go by "technically" because it doesn't suit your argument, because technically speaking - as I said - it's not, lol.



No, he's not. NJO Luke is like three, if not more, times stronger than even DE Luke, who in turn is stronger than Vader. Vader is not half of NJO Luke.



As I said, produce viable proof that it's been used on a strong, even mediocre, Force user and killed them.

@ Krieger:



Which games? Where in the games? I'm calling you out to provide proof not some stupid statement. Show me exactly which games, and where.

Originally posted by Advent
@ Krieger:



Which games? Where in the games? I'm calling you out to provide proof not some stupid statement. Show me exactly which games, and where.

KoToR 1, Malak Force Crushes 2(maybe 4, can't quite remember the details) Jedi on the StarForge I believe it was, in a Cutscene. i'm pretty sure Desann uses Force Crush(Third/Second Level Grip in those games) as well on various people. I'd have to go play these games again to find more, which I really don't want to do just to prove a debate

Originally posted by Advent




And, actually going by "technically" it's not. Technically, an instakill instantely kills. You can't go by "technically" because it doesn't suit your argument, because technically speaking - as I said - it's not, lol.



No, he's not. NJO Luke is like three, if not more, times stronger than even DE Luke, who in turn is stronger than Vader. Vader is not half of NJO Luke.





still its a you will die situation, its like a pitbull biting you on your neck, it wont let go till u die, just like the user of force crush and i do get ur point.

GL stated vader would have been twice as strong if he didnt suffer injuries that means 2x, and saying anakin would be the most powerful force user ever and also stating that luke became what full anakin was suppose to become, that means njo luke is 2x of vader.

the machine vader is only half of what he will become, gl said so.
and luke became what anakin suppose to become period

and how is a jedi going to defend against something which appears around the outline of your body? its not like lightning where the victim would block with a saber or block with his hands like yoda.
the force around you immobalises you, you cant do anything once it gets to you,
the best defense to this feat is to kill the user before he executes the power


and proof that he used it on a force user? none, because there were none left in the galaxy and he learned this after the purge, not during it.

we do not have to argue bout the instantkill, its settled i know what r u trying to say

You can just use the force to push out around you to counter a force crush. This argument is really not worth arguing over.

yes that could be a good defense but once u get hit with crush you cant do anything, so before the user executes crush, then the victim should push the force out but wouldnt that let the victims guard down?

the attacker still has saber throw and grip

i havnt seen any jedi do yet though but lets assume all jedi have it.

anyways end of arguements, im getting tired we are not even argueming about the match but about force crush.
lets drop it all