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Darth Vader against any one (not two) of those three. Say the duo, who would win, and why. All battles are on the Sith academy on Korriban.

he already beat maul, he already beat tyrannus in the vader vs tyranus thread and he would crush grievious with the force, vaders lack of agility will cause him to get hacked by grievious,

Originally posted by Kadesh
he already beat maul,

Maul as of TPM might give him a challenge, but Vaders force mastery far outclasses Mauls. I would say Vader is physicaly stronger and has more skill with a blade. Mauls speed is better, but this alone will hardly give him the victory.



I smell bullsh*t.



What are you saying? Your say that Vader would crush GG with the force (thus winning) but would get hacked by GG's blades (thus losing). Isnt that a tad contradictory?

I would personally say Vader wins comfortably with the force. Probably get pwned in a duel though. There is no way that Vader can contend wtih the speed of GG, especially when he wields mulitple blades. Overall he would win thanks to the force.

Lucas put Vader on Dooku and Maul's level.

That's enough for me, honestly

Actually, he put the PT duelists on a whole different level to the OT duelists. Vader is only on their level in the force.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Lucas put Vader on Dooku and Maul's level.

That's enough for me, honestly



Actually he said "he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku", so the OR could actually mean anything. (Either as you say and it means they are at the same level, or that he was as strong as either Maul or as strong as Count Dooku, or neither and he is actually just another apprentice to Sidious, not his superior).
And since we have pretty much proof that Tyrannus is above Maul I'd go with that.

Vader has defeated Maul.
Vader has been proven to defeat Tyrannus.
Vader (since he's able to beat Dooku) can probably beat Grievous using the Force and saber.

The fight between Vader hasn't been confirmed as canonical. Even then, it was still only a clone of Maul, who's to say he would be exactly as powerful as the real Maul.

Where has it been proven that Vader can beat Tyranus, because this is wrong.

Yes, Vader could probably crush him like Mace did.

Vader vs. Tyrannus thread. Duh!! Over a 1000 posts, that tells you how much debate there was.

I've read through the thread, and it hasn't been proven.

OT Vader - Loses to Tyranus, beats but doesn't pwn ROTS Grievous and Maul, may possibly lose to EU Grievoud due to Grievous's speed, or may win due to his powerful Force Powers.

ROTS Vader - Beats any of them with more or less difficulty

RODV Vader - Loses to them all

Not going to touch any otehr verison of Vader.

Originally posted by Dessel
The fight between Vader hasn't been confirmed as canonical.

Are you referring to the Darth Maul versus Darth Vader match in Resurrection? If you are (and you obviously are), you are wrong. Leland Chee has confirmed that - canonically - Maul's death is part of continuity, and the events surrounding it are as well:

"The only non-continuity death listed here is Watto's. "Resurrections" under this list are in-continuity."

-- Leland Chee, Movie Character's Killed in EU, comments.

Maul's reanimation, and the fight against Darth Vader are listed under "Resurrections".

However, he also said that it wasn't confirmed as to what we are seeing. It could've been a clone, a Sith illusion, or something similar (he even says something like what Luke experienced on Dagobah). I'd wager, however, it was as powerful as Maul (or even more) considering he forced Vader to put his life on the line just to kill him.

But, that's just my opinion. It could be a more powerful version of Maul, a far weaker version, or equal - nothing has been confirmed, ergo it's basically irrelevant to even bring up the match.

Ah OK, my mistake.

Ok, it's been established that Dooku cannot survive against Anakin in a sword duel, however, where's the proof he can survive against Dooku's force powers? If we say they start 20m apart, what stops Dooku from taking him out with them? Just asking.........

same question in reverse...what if Vader just choked him from 20m away? Does lightning go that far effictively?

Who's to say Vader could choke him? Who has Vader effectively choked who was remotely close to him in The Force? Movie-wise, he only killed non-Force users with it.

ROTS Vader, however, did do it briefly to Obi-Wan, I think. However, Dooku would school ROTS pre-suit Vader given how rash, arrogant and totally stupid he is.

I give Dooku/Maul good odds against OT Vader in sabers given Mauls's style would be horrible for Vader's one-handed Form V which relies solely on pure strength to beat his opponent. Add Dooku in there and I don't see it going well. However, if Vader used The Force to hold Maul off, he might be able to beat Dooku after a long saber duel.

I AM SICK AND TIRED OF VADER (IN SUIT) BEING UNDERESTIMATED.
Although he does lose a helluvalotta mobility due to it, according to novelizations there are also added improvements (Not to mention, he pretty much gets over it in RODV). In RODV, he took a glancing blow with a lightsaber without even NOTICING. Pre-suit Vader could never have done that. Also, he can throw immensely heavy objects and SHRED METAL using the Force. Do not underestimate him as a duelist by any means. He took on just as many Jedi at a time as Grievous did, and, although Grievous is hellishly fast, Vader is just as hellishly strong. Besides, Grievous is a non-Force user. Grievous gets pwned. As for Maul, he lacks either the speed of Grievous or the force of Vader's blows. Consider that he's relatively weak in the Force, he gets pwned. As for Dooku, that's gotta be the most challenging. However, Vader can probably block Force Lightning with his saber (Although I haven't seen him do it as of yet. My apologies.) I consider the two as about equal regarding Force-use. He can't win on a defensive front; Dooku is just too good of a goddamn duelist. BUT, on the other hand, if Vader starts swinging at him, does anyone really think that Dooku's dueling style is forceful enough to block it? Who has Dooku faced with that same raw power?

.....Srry if I sounded a little pissed.

When I said "Who has Dooku faced with that same raw power?" I meant it as a question, not a challenge. I really can't name anyone.

What is all this crap about Tyranus losing to OT Vader? The last I checked we decided on a stalemate, even though Dooku was winning on the poll. So none of you Vader lovers better start posting that bullsh*t.

And to answer your question - Dooku has fought and beaten Mace Windu. If by raw power you mean physical strength then I would put Mace on Vaders level. After all he did defeat a whole friggin droid legion with his fists. Also Makashi parries, not blocks. Meaning it doesnt have to meet other forms strength for strength.

The poll's a stalemate last I checked...?
Srry 'bout the facts. Didn't know.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Who's to say Vader could choke him? Who has Vader effectively choked who was remotely close to him in The Force? Movie-wise, he only killed non-Force users with it.

ROTS Vader, however, did do it briefly to Obi-Wan, I think. However, Dooku would school ROTS pre-suit Vader given how rash, arrogant and totally stupid he is.

I give Dooku/Maul good odds against OT Vader in sabers given Mauls's style would be horrible for Vader's one-handed Form V which relies solely on pure strength to beat his opponent. Add Dooku in there and I don't see it going well. However, if Vader used The Force to hold Maul off, he might be able to beat Dooku after a long saber duel.

notice that in the very first thread he said ONE of the three, not two, so how are you going to throw Maul and Dooku in together? Ok, movie wise, who has Dooku effectively killed with lightning that's a force user? Who has he killed with it PERIOD? Vader killed somone on a different ship. How would Dooku block his throat from being crushed in a matter of seconds, maybe minutes? I think we've been through this in the Vader vs Tyrannus thread, though i could be mistaken...

GG has no force powers and prolly wouldn't get close enough to Vader to do damage, what would he do, shoot at him? We saw what that did for Han. Maul is just not on his level. the only thing Maul has is speed, which is not enough alone to defeat vader. Dooku....*long sigh*...go read that thread, lol.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
What is all this crap about Tyranus losing to OT Vader? The last I checked we decided on a stalemate, even though Dooku was winning on the poll. So none of you Vader lovers better start posting that bullsh*t.

And to answer your question - Dooku has fought and beaten Mace Windu. If by raw power you mean physical strength then I would put Mace on Vaders level. After all he did defeat a whole friggin droid legion with his fists. Also Makashi parries, not blocks. Meaning it doesnt have to meet other forms strength for strength.

right, but we've already established that Makashi cant do shit against Djem So, or Vader's customized style. And really we called a truce cause no one was budging. You think simple lightning will do the trick, i (we) think a simple choke could put it away...but i think we all know the truth, huh Ox?

If by the truth you mean Vader getting his balls fried by the Counts lightning then yes, I agree.

Besides, F. Lightning can be blocked. I've never seen that happen with a choke.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
If by the truth you mean Vader getting his thermal detonator balls out and cramming them up the Counts A$$ then yes, I agree.

Well I'm glad you see things my way!!!

*wonders why Ox isn't more in the Dooku/Kas'Im thread*




j/k buddy...

Lol. I think I have stepped on enough peoples toes by arguing relentlessly for Dooku as of late. Ive decided to just sit and watch others debate for a while - hence the reason I havent posted in the Kas'im vs Dooku thread. Though when I see you saying that OT Vader would beat Dooku, well, I just couldnt resist.

Well, i did misread it. Oh well.

Originally posted by Darth Godzilla
Besides, F. Lightning can be blocked. I've never seen that happen with a choke.

True. But force choke has to do exactly that - choke them to death. So Dooku, or whoever Vader is performing the technique on, just has to break his concentration to release the hold. It would take a good 15 seconds to choke another force user to death anyway. Plenty of time to break Vaders concentration.

I admit theres no way for vader to win GG in asaber duel, GG is way to fastv for vader, only way is to execute force crush, one where grivious cannot defend against, and vader has choked force users before, in the purge while holding of 2 other jedi at the same time.

Not to mention he destroyed tanks on the battlefield alone in Eaw
and his force push is incredible pushing tark against gravity and causing a massive dent. Alot of people underestimate Vader,

Originally posted by Rampant ox
True. But force choke has to do exactly that - choke them to death. So Dooku, or whoever Vader is performing the technique on, just has to break his concentration to release the hold. It would take a good 15 seconds to choke another force user to death anyway. Plenty of time to break Vaders concentration. Lets not forget crush can kill you in less than 4 seconds

@ nikkolas: All good, my friend...no worries

@ Ox: lol, you see i give Dooku his just dues in that thread, but to think that Dooku could decimate vader from 20m away is just ludicris. I know Dooku has more overall experience in the force, but Vader had/has a stronger connection to it, plus YEARS more training under the most powerful Sith ever. Not saying Vader would pwn Dooku, i never said that actually, but to think Dooku could treat Vader like he did OB1, or as he did in AOTC, is just not right either.....admit it.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
True. But force choke has to do exactly that - choke them to death. So Dooku, or whoever Vader is performing the technique on, just has to break his concentration to release the hold. It would take a good 15 seconds to choke another force user to death anyway. Plenty of time to break Vaders concentration.

How in God's name do you try to break someone's concentration when you're being strangled to death?

^^ what he said.

he'd be to busy grabbing at his throat like everyone else does. its an instinct...."dont think, feel...use your instincts." (something to that effect, lol)

Well vader choked tsui choi and he threw his lightsaber to slash vaders mask off,so yes, you can counter grip with force attacks.

, if you were to defend force crush, you would have to put up a shield BEFORE the user executes crush, once it gets on you. 100% death or just get out of sight, Now crush is instant, its the very highest level of grip and this one is around your whole body, not just the neck

the only one i see vader beating is maul, like he did in the comics, and it almost killed him doing it.

dooku is better with a saber and has force lightning.

grievous has more strength, speed, and 4 times the weaponry. hed take some damage from vader using the force but hed win in the end.

Originally posted by Decay


dooku is better with a saber and has force lightning.
vader is far better than dooku in saber combat and in the force, and dont forget lightsabers block lightning
.Vader learnt undet the most powerful sith lord ever for like 20 years, Had he lived and studied from DE palp then vader would be even stronger in my opinion
Originally posted by Decay


grievous has more strength, speed, and 4 times the weaponry. hed take some damage from vader using the force but hed win in the end. Wrong again, force crush will send GG into oblivion

Originally posted by Kadesh
vader is far better than dooku in saber combat

Umm, since when? I recall Dooku having received extensive training from the 2 greatest sword users of the era (Yoda and Sidious), being described as a lightsaber prodigy, having decades more experience and being a master of the ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat. Vaders form may have an advantage over Dooku's, but in terms of saber skill I would put Dooku a fair notch above Vader.



Dooku learned under one of the strongest light side users for 60+ years and then received about 10 years from Sidious. So again, Dooku has more experience and more training.



Well, he didnt. Point moot.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Umm, since when? I recall Dooku having received extensive training from the 2 greatest sword users of the era (Yoda and Sidious), being described as a lightsaber prodigy, having decades more experience and being a master of the ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat. Vaders form may have an advantage over Dooku's, but in terms of saber skill I would put Dooku a fair notch above Vader.
Actually since already vaders form is above dooku and considering the fact that he is even stronger in saber combat than anakin whom already beat dooku fair and square, vader takes this in saber combat and he was able to fence of 6 jedi at once while choking the other 1. Lets not forget sia lan wezz was a decent jedi while tsui choi was extremely fast, not as fast as yoda but fought with incredible speed. and also lets not forget Vader suspended Tsui choi in the air for a period of time to get shot by the clones

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Dooku learned under one of the strongest light side users for 60+ years and then received about 10 years from Sidious. So again, Dooku has more experience and more training. Yes but vader has a far greater advantage by knowing how to use his raw power against an opponent while keeping calm. Not toforget vader has more dark side experience than dooku. And dooku completed his training a long time ago when he reached master level for jedi. And if dooku has more experience, how did vader manage to shred a 1 m thick blast door apart like it was nothing? And having the ability to tear apart and destroy tanks on the battle field as well as rampaging through dozens of soldiers with the force as proven in Eaw? Like i said, none of us will agree to each other



Originally posted by Rampant ox
Well, he didnt. Point moot. i said if he did, and lets not forget the ancient sith acknowledged vader when they built is throne on korriban, think im lieing? read Empires end then

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Vader.

He has crushed the dark woman with a huge tree, a feat that is easily above anything we've seen from almost anybody. It doesn't sound that impressive, but, if you see the comic, you'll know what I mean. With that one showing alone it can be concluded that he'd rip through most force defences and thrash him with the force. He has also:
*Held Boba Fett in place with the force, his grip around him being compared to steel.
* Popped a severed (living) head while it was in a chest without any concentration.
* Thrown a choking officer dozens of feet into the air.
* Ripped apart wrosher trees with the force (the same type of trees that were unphased by heavy blaster fire).
* Choked one person, sent another one flying dozens of feet, and threw a sword with the force into a third, all at the same time with no gestures or apparent struggle.
* Choked an officer from a ridiculous distance (In ESB).
* Threw debris at Luke (and another Jedi Master in RODV) to overwhelm them.
* Choked a Jedi while unarmed.
* Held Master Choi, a very powerful Jedi Master, in the air with the force.
* Threw his lightsaber an assumed great distance and killed one person and mortally wounded another (lived due to immediate medical attention), while a Jedi that was closer to the targets was trying to use the force to stop him.
* When circled by predators, he reached out sending them all flying dozens of feet in every direction.
* Owned a group of common thugs with the force, one of whom got sent flying back 50+ feet into a stone wall which crumbled with the force of the blow.
* Learned from Sidious.
* Resisted Sidious' lightning, with no saber and after being beat down, long enough to pick him up and throw him down the reactor shaft.
* A lot more.

As far as lightsaber skills go:
* Carved through 20+ wookiees in seconds.
* Beat Obi Wan.
* Beat ESB Luke.
* Toyed with one of the most deadliest duelists in the galaxy as if he was a child (using kicks and showing a lot of agility) in Crimson Empire.
* Owned two Jedi Knights who had seen action in the clone wars and worked very well together.
* Beat down some padawans in one move...
* Uses elements from many different styles (even the "Most dangerous" Including Makashi and Djem So) and uses only one hand with immense physical strength.
* Has lightsaber resistant armor. (A powerful swing from Luke only sizzled his shoulder).
* A lot more...

Fell free to add anything...

It can be generally agreed that he'd beat down Maul or Greivous with the force alone, but, about his battle with Dooku, he has a few specific advantages to his name:
* Semi lightsaber-resistant armor. The light swings of Makashi that are enough to take out a non- armored opponent (like we see in AOTC, what happens to Obi Wan) would not take out Vader so easily.
* Form V. Form V uses a lot of physical strength to overwhelm opponents, and is particularly good against Makashi. Vader is one of the physically strongest duelists we've seen.
* Vader is patient and thinks. Speaks for itself (Not saying Dooku isn't, but, it will help a lot).
* Greater dark side studies. He has spent more time with Sidious training, and has access to many of the dark holocrons that were previously stored within the Jedi Temple.
* Knowledge of opponent. One of the biggest factors in this fight that has been overlooked, is that Vader knows of Count Dooku, while Vader is a mystery to Dooku. He knows what he is capable of, how he acts while fighting, and what it takes to beat him.

Rampant, Vader > Dooku by a hell of a lot in Dark Side knowledge, technique, ability, and experience.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Umm, since when? I recall Dooku having received extensive training from the 2 greatest sword users of the era (Yoda and Sidious), being described as a lightsaber prodigy, having decades more experience and being a master of the ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat.


I'm sorry, but you could please enlighten us as to where or when Dooku was trained by Sidious in lightsaber combat? If he was already the finest master of his form as a Jedi, then what training would he get from Sidious? And his "ultimate refinement" didn't help him against anakin's form V, who is not as physically strong as Vader, and remember Vader customized his style to fit him, his suit, and to be more deadly. And really, 60 years of training compared to 40 isn't that big of a difference when the 40 year old has a much stronger bond to the force for more than half his life, and even still a stronger connection than the other Sith apprentices before him.

Here's my prediction of a battle between Dooku and Vader. Tell me if it's accurate:
Dooku attempts to end the battle quickly with Force Lightning (as he always seems to do). Vader, prepared, blocks it with his saber. Then the two engage in lightsaber combat. Dooku quickly gains the advantage; his quick blows get in several glancing hits on Vader. Due to his armor, however, Vader survives. But he now understands that he can't win a defensive battle. He improvises. He begins swinging at Dooku with savage ferocity; his blows are not accurate, and Dooku easily parries several, but Dooku cannot hold against such a relentless onslaught. He is eventually beaten down. Now, one of two things could happen.
1) Dooku recovers quickly and leaps up, unleashing a torrential flow of Force Lightning. Vader's circutry is torn apart, and Dooku wins.
2) Vader grabs Dooku in an iron Force Grip, and the Count can do nothing but watch as Vader cuts him down.

Which one is more likely? This is where their personalities come into play. Part of the reason Dooku left the order was his arrogance. My prediction is that he would be shocked at his defeat in the lightsaber battle, slowing his reaction time considerably. Were this pre-suit Vader, I fear his arrogance would overcome him, slowing him down and turning this into nothing more than a game of chance. However, at this stage, Vader is a methodical planner, and would sieze any opportunity presented him. I think that the victory goes to Vader.

actaully.. thats a pretty good simulation.

thanks

I dont want to turn this into another full blown 'Vader vs Dooku' thread, but I agree with most of what had been posted. Im didnt say that Dooku is better with the dark side, nor that his form gives him the advantage. I will say Dooku has far more experience with the force (specifically light side) because he has had several decades more time to study it. I would also say (though this is my opinion so dont get titchy) that Dooku is a better duellist in general. Again he has had more experience and has fought (and held his own against) some of the greatest duellists ever - Mace Windu, Yoda, Obi-Wan. Though like I said, if you want to debate it go back to the 'V vs T' thread, because im to lazy to argue it again here.

And about force choke. Dooku is an accomplished duellist, smart duellist and arrogant duellist. Do you think he is just going to stand there and get choked to death like some mere Imperial Commander? No. He may be caught of guard but he will recover, and break Vaders concentration thus breaking the hold. Force lightning or a saber throw may be sufficent by itself.

Good night. I've got to get some rest. I have to take two tests this weekend which will be factors in determining which high school I go to. Wish me luck!

By the way, Ox? I know someone (although not very well) who knows C. Lee.

Lucky!!! Now im jealous lol.

Good luck for the tests btw.

well his "arrogance" is what will get him caught in and killed by a force choke. You cant say that Dooku will undeniably break the hold, you have no proof to support such a claim.

Well im sorry, but I dont think it is stupid to assume that Dooku will attempt to break a life threatening hold. I personally find this more likely than Dooku just sitting back and letting Vader choke him to death.

right, but trying is one thing, doing it is completely different.

All Dooku has to do is break Vader's concentration. He could use force lightning, throw his saber, pick up and throw a surrounding object or even force push Vader. It wont be to difficult to do methinks. Especially from someone as strong as the Count.

Um vader has learnt not to force choke force users, why? because tsui choi cut his mask apart when he did,And vader learns from his mistakes and knows what not to do, especially against dooku whom is a challenge for vader.

Vader would strike with force crush, dooku is immobalise, end of story.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=064 see this link and it proves how powerful vaders attacks are

Originally posted by Kadesh
Um vader has learnt not to force choke force users, why? because tsui choi cut his mask apart when he did,

I don't recall him necessarily choking Tsui Choi, although he did almost get killed. He basically just suspended him in the air - nothing directly like a Force Choke, which is usually portrayed as the victim choking from what I've seen.



It's really not that clear and cut, Kadesh. I doubt that'd happen so easily, let alone with a Force crush. Can't Dooku also replicate this feat in the form of Force Grip? True, though, it is a lesser version of Crush, but whatever. Grievous survived a Force crush from Windu anyways, I doubt it'll just instantly freeze someone of Count Dooku's status.

Wookiepedia does say this:

"Darth Vader, who would not hesitate to use Force Crush and similar techniques on Imperial personnel that he deemed incompetent, might have even been able to Force Crush entire light class vehicles on the battlefield."

But I'd wonder where the source for that is. If it were true, maybe I'd have a different opinion; albeit, even so it's only a "might have been" anyways.



While I'd agree Vader's mastery over the Darkside may be a notch or two above Dooku's own, I'd submit trying to take Dooku via the Force wouldn't necessarily have the same outcome as the above comic shows.

In that comic, we see Vader Force push a non-Force user (and what appears to be a common thug) through a wall. Somewhat impressive, but not as impressive when you consider a comparative weakling to Dooku - Obi-Wan - was able to Force push Grievous in a similiar fashion; albeit not through a wall.

Dooku has indeed shown an impressive display of power over Obi-Wan, as the Revenge of the Sith novelization goes on about:

"He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall."

It'd pretty apparent that Dooku isn't necessarily going to be tooled, let alone handled by some Force attacks from Darth Vader. He's not noted as "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history" and "an even greater Sith" for nothing. Yoda even comments on his power noting him as the student who:

- Has the most power.
- Is the wisest.
- Is the most knowledgable in the ways of the Force.

Though, I'd probably say that was before Anakin came about (when speaking about Dooku). Most likely before he left the Order he is referring to. Anyways, the apparent ease of which he tools Kenobi is pretty sufficient in my book to be able to fend off Vader, and the fact he took out Kenobi in only 13 accumulated seconds of lightsaber clashing. As well, he did manhandle Asajj Ventress, he - with one finger - brought Ventress down to her knees:

"Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor. "

While Asajj isn't t3h ub3r force goddess, I would call what he's done with her "childsplay" (and not the movie). Against Anakin in AOTC, he's also shown his impressive mastery, the narration even compares the effects of his Force push to a stone wall:

"Dooku's hand shot out toward the charging Jedi, sending forth a Force push as solid as any stone wall, and a burst of blue Force lightning. With a wave of his hand, Dooku sent Anakin flying across the room, to crash into a distant wall, where he slumped down, dazed.

Also note that Dooku has shown the ability to Force Choke as well, using it on Komari Vosa in Bounty Hunter (but I'm sure you all knew he could anyways, lol). He was able to own Sora Bulq, and knock him out with Force lightning:

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/4374/sorapwnedys9.th.jpg

And I'd surmise that knocking master of Vaapad, Sora Bulq, unconscious for a relatively long time is no small feat, and speaks well for his prowess as a lightning user. He did that while battling against two foes, the other was Master Tholme, who is no weak shit himself, but is utterly tooled, and at Dooku's mercy one page after.

However, I'd still warrant that Vader is more powerful in the Force by a small margin (I wouldn't go as so far as to say "huge gap of power". In terms of dueling, though, Vader in the OT is a slow, hunk of metal as seen throughout the various duels according to Ushgarak, so I'd hand a lightsaber battle to Dooku in that aspect. Admittedly, though, I'm not so totally sure that he's that slow, but Ushgarak is usually right (or can't be wrong rather) - so I'm only basing my decision off that.

While Djem So's advantage over Makashi is that Makashi is "unable to meet Djem So head on", it's nothing too extreme or even deciding. In the Insider Issue 62 article, entitled Fightsaber, Vaapad is described as "more open and kinetic" than Form V, yet Dooku tooled Sora with relative ease.

Perhaps, Anakin's pure strength had something to do with that though, and Vader > Anakin physically due to his artificial limbs, and cybernetics, but Dooku is still portrayed as being much faster (contending with Yoda after fighting Anakin and Obi-Wan), and his dueling skills are nothing short of impressive, among the best.

I'm still undecided as for who would win in an overall match between Vader and Dooku, but whatever, I don't really care - some general input to get my out of my debating hiatus.

well the source about vader being able to crush tanks on the battle field came from Eaw, and Quite frankly even if dooku choked vader, vader could counter with TK by throwing his lightsaber or prehaps a different attack.
i dont see how dooku could defend against a force crush. I mean like if he could crush tanks, i dont see why he cant crush a force user, and i doubt dooku knows force shield like the one luke demonstrated in DE. And already crush is potrayed to be a devastating force attack as proven in Kotor2, no im not exactly using game mechanics here. But if you played Eaw, you would see vader could destroy tanks with ease.
Because you see, vaders force crush is unlike windus, vader uses rage and anger and he exerts alot of power, And crush appears around the outline of your body i assume and it pushes down to its centre. Especially against dooku whom he would not underestimate, he would fight with seriousness,
And being faster does not mean you can kill your slower enemy easier, He fought tsui choi in the purge who was far faster than He is and he also killed the Dark woman, whom is a very powerful jedi master and if i recalled vader uses his sorroundings to his advantage, like during the dark woman battle, he pulled the waterfall to drown the dark woman for a split second so he could jump forward and attack

I saw no such trick in the Dark Woman battle, Kadesh...

And provide an instance where Crush is shown to be devastating in KOTOR2 that isn't game mechanics.

If Vader is so skilled at force crush as you say, why did he not use it against more of his enemies. Why not kill the emperor with it, as Vader was planning to overthrow him anyway? Why not use it against Kenobi in ANH who was a hugely formiddable opponent in his own right? If this move is as almighty as you are makin it out to be I dont see why Vader didnt just use it willy nilly. Could he not have force crushed several of those X-Wings out of the air in ANH? I mean, they were about to cause the destruction of the galaxies most powerful creation, and there was no apparent threat to Vader while he was in his aircraft - after all he was flanked by two Tie's. It should have been easy for Vader just to knock a couple of those Rebel Pilots out of the sky.

I think you are giving Vader far to much credit based from one move. Force crush alone does not ensure Vader the victory - especially when I see it as very unlikely he will use the move anyway.

As well as the fact that it must require quite a bit of focus to perform such a feat...

Originally posted by Kadesh
well the source about vader being able to crush tanks on the battle field came from Eaw,

Obviously, as we didn't see Vader crushing too many vehicles in the movies. But the direct quote, and which comic/novel/etc. it came from is what I wanted to know.



And the same cannot be applied for Count Dooku? That's pretty much cutting double standards in the sense that Vader, in my book, isn't leagues above Dooku to the point where he can tool him a la DE Sidious, or NJO Luke for example.

I don't see how if Vader could escape a Force grapple used by Dooku, Dooku cannot escape one down by Vader. While it's true Vader has roughly 10 more years experience with the Darkside, Dooku has an estimated 40 more years experience overall with the Force, granted majority spent with the Lightside. It is worth noting, however, that he is described as even more powerful as a Sith Lord, which - added to his already praised skill - speaks well.



1.) The source that mentioned Vader being able to "crush light vehicles" is from Wookiepedia, no direct given source. Even if you were to find the source (which I doubt exists), it is still only a "maybe", which could equate to hyperbole.

2.) What I'm saying is that it's highly doubtful it'll be so easy as to apply one Force maneuver, and beat Dooku given his prowess in the Force.

3.) A comparative weakling to Dooku from the TOTJ era, Tott Donetta, was able to replicate Luke's power:

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/7033/tottblock8jskh6.th.jpg

At least, I believe you are referring to Luke blasting AT-AT fire or something like that. I wouldn't say that he has to necessarily possess that specific power, but it's clear that if a Force push can be resisted, some other powers may be as well. Or rather, just able to be countered.

The lesser version of Crush, Force grip, can be countered, I believe anyways. I doubt Force Crush is infallible, let alone the what - one instance Vader used it on an officer?

4.) Rex also brings up a good point of concentration. I doubt he'll stop mid-duel while lightsabers are a'blazing to pull a move he's demonstrated - to my knowledge - once.

It's not going to be that easy for Vader, and the same goes for Dooku with his Force attacks. It definitely won't be so clear and cut as you and others make it out to be.



Force Crushes don't really "differ", at least in the sense you are talking about. Windu's power is apparent, and his Force skills are nothing short of amazing, I'd say. To think that Windu wouldn't exert a multitude of power is pretty asinine, especially against someone like Grievous, who Yoda acknowledges as a enormous threat to the Jedi and Republic.

Vader's crush may be more powerful, but it's the fact that Windu - who is known to be a considerable Force user - used it on a non-Force using being, and he survived with lung damage. It didn't kill him.

And the "outline" is only shown in KOTOR from what I've seen, however, it does "push down" I suppose, but again - that's not to say it'll be the end all, be all solution to Dooku.



It's the fact that his lightsaber skills are already considerably excellent, and arguably on par with Vader's own. Vader is not as good as a duelist as Anakin, so please do not use the same rehashed argument of "Anakin beat Dooku before, Vader can do it!".

Anyways, he did not fight Tsui Choi constantly during Purge. He swung at Vader like one time to my recollection. As well, neither the Dark Woman nor Tsui Choi compare to Dooku in terms of dueling, and I'd even argue speed, as well. Vader's saber skills aren't as good as they were, sorry to say. He could not keep up with Dooku in a pure lightsaber match. I don't doubt he'd put up a good fight, but I'd say he'd ultimately lose in the end.

Kudos to Advent for making mention of the Rexmeister. eyes

Plus, you don't really see people in the movies clashing swords and suddenly whip out lightning or something like that. Dooku's choke-and-kick maneuver in ROTS was the only case of that, and he had an opening.

Something like Crush is hardly going to have an opportunity mid-duel.

ok advent here are my arguements, correct me if im wrong ok?

Originally posted by Advent
Obviously, as we didn't see Vader crushing too many vehicles in the movies. But the direct quote, and which comic/novel/etc. it came from is what I wanted to know.

Well we did see the magnitude of his powers in empire at war, like the devstation his force crush can create on the battle field, Theres a reason why wookiepedia put that "he might have been". It is because They are well aware that is crush is indeed powerful. I mean if he really had mastered force push like the pic i posted, he surely could have done the same with his other powers like grip, crush or some others
Originally posted by Advent
And the same cannot be applied for Count Dooku? That's pretty much cutting double standards in the sense that Vader, in my book, isn't leagues above Dooku to the point where he can tool him a la DE Sidious, or NJO Luke for example.

Yes count dooku can do that if he gets choked, who said he couldnt?

Originally posted by Advent
I don't see how if Vader could escape a Force grapple used by Dooku, Dooku cannot escape one down by Vader. While it's true Vader has roughly 10 more years experience with the Darkside, Dooku has an estimated 40 more years experience overall with the Force, granted majority spent with the Lightside. It is worth noting, however, that he is described as even more powerful as a Sith Lord, which - added to his already praised skill - speaks well.
Yes but yoda had like 800 years of experience and even he could not defeat sidious who had only like what maybe 60-90 years of experience?

Originally posted by Advent

1.) The source that mentioned Vader being able to "crush light vehicles" is from Wookiepedia, no direct given source. Even if you were to find the source (which I doubt exists), it is still only a "maybe", which could equate to hyperbole.
Well you can play Eaw to find out that it is true
Originally posted by Advent

2.) What I'm saying is that it's highly doubtful it'll be so easy as to apply one Force maneuver, and beat Dooku given his prowess in the Force.
Couldnt the same be with dooku?
Originally posted by Advent
3.) A comparative weakling to Dooku from the TOTJ era, Tott Donetta, was able to replicate Luke's power: What is there to say dooku could do the same with all the experience and knowledge he had? Like take master vrook, he is far more experienced that bastila and yet bastila was able to use battle madeitation while vrook does not have that ability

Originally posted by Advent
The lesser version of Crush, Force grip, can be countered, I believe anyways. I doubt Force Crush is infallible, let alone the what - one instance Vader used it on an officer?
Yes, grip can surely be countered even with a force push i think to break your opponents concentration. But crush is where the user focuses his hate and anger, its similar to exars amulet which the power doubles with every pulse of anger tho i have no proof of this
Originally posted by Advent
4.) Rex also brings up a good point of concentration. I doubt he'll stop mid-duel while lightsabers are a'blazing to pull a move he's demonstrated - to my knowledge - once.
No one can force attack while dueling, not unless theres an opponing or a saber lock and note its dangerous and risky for dooku to pull of lighting and a very close range

Originally posted by Advent
It's not going to be that easy for Vader, and the same goes for Dooku with his Force attacks. It definitely won't be so clear and cut as you and others make it out to be.
Well id put them on par honestly

Originally posted by Advent

Force Crushes don't really "differ", at least in the sense you are talking about. Windu's power is apparent, and his Force skills are nothing short of amazing, I'd say. To think that Windu wouldn't exert a multitude of power is pretty asinine, especially against someone like Grievous, who Yoda acknowledges as a enormous threat to the Jedi and Republic.
Well force crush is disputed as a dark side power, And i believe dark side attacks are stronger when you focus all your rage and hate, sorry tho i cant prove this, this is only what i believe
Originally posted by Advent

Vader's crush may be more powerful, but it's the fact that Windu - who is known to be a considerable Force user - used it on a non-Force using being, and he survived with lung damage. It didn't kill him.
Yes and note grievious is a cyborg built from metal, and Vader could crush tanks 5-7 times bigger than vader is, And as i said, vader tends to kill his opponents, he make sure they dies. Just play Eaw to see it
Originally posted by Advent

And the "outline" is only shown in KOTOR from what I've seen, however, it does "push down" I suppose, but again - that's not to say it'll be the end all, be all solution to Dooku. Well like you said before, get out of sight is an effective way of defending attacks like this. Or prehaps push the air outwards to counter this power which i dont know if dooku can do


Originally posted by Advent

It's the fact that his lightsaber skills are already considerably excellent, and arguably on par with Vader's own. Vader is not as good as a duelist as Anakin, so please do not use the same rehashed argument of "Anakin beat Dooku before, Vader can do it!".
. And why would vaders skill not be as good as anakin? yes he might be slower but his physical strength makes up for that and he has far more experience than he had as anakin,

i pulled this quote from wookiepedia and i suggest you read it, Tho you might find it unreliable, Jedi academy and back this up and prove this is true

Around 3.5 ABY, Vader had ordered ASP-19 droids, lightsaber combat droids based off the ASP-series droid, produced to fight him in sparring matches. They were faster and stronger than an ordinary man, and programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen fighting styles. Vader defeated them time and again, and ordered a new, improved batch of them. As his finesse improved they became too easy to defeat, even in a two-on-one match.

Originally posted by Advent

Anyways, he did not fight Tsui Choi constantly during Purge. He swung at Vader like one time to my recollection. As well, neither the Dark Woman nor Tsui Choi compare to Dooku in terms of dueling, and I'd even argue speed, as well. Vader's saber skills aren't as good as they were, sorry to say. He could not keep up with Dooku in a pure lightsaber match. I don't doubt he'd put up a good fight, but I'd say he'd ultimately lose in the end. Well but he fended of the jedi masters easily until he got back stabbed several times, And before the battle begn, he had blown apart a blast door as if it was nothing and he did it with pure anger, notice he was screaming obi wans name after that. And vader had done well parrying the attacks of the jedi and he oculd force push one of them while blocking another jedi with his lightsaber, He nearly got his ass handed because he was backstabbed several times and even after his arm got cut off still clutched with the cortosis blade, he was able to react quickly and used it with the force to spear the jedi in the red outfit. And notice he stabbed and sliced of sia lan wezzs hands even before her dead body hit the floor.

And i found this rather intresting tho it would be a contradiction

The Emperor, having gone out of his way to keep Vader alive, took an alternative viewpoint. Though it was true to say that he had not bargained for an apprentice "more machine now than man", Palpatine was of the opinion that most of the limitations on Vader's potential power were not physical but psychological. He believed that were Vader to fully confront his choices and disappointments, to completely shake himself out of his despair, that he would have been able to "reawaken the incredible power within him"

And these were palpatines thoughts

"Sith power resided not in the flesh but in the will."

As for that quote which could be just his thoughts. Darth sion has proven this, like how? his flesh and body had been crushed and choped and yet his will kept it together

I think that Vader takes the battle against any one of the three.

Do you have any, you know, points to back that up? Its just that me and several other members have argued it for literally hundreds of posts and still havent come to a conclusion. I personally dont see how Vader can win against a practicioner of force lightning - it will simply fry his circuitry. But im sure Darth Subjekt will be quick to come up with a reason

Why can't Vader block F. Lightning with his saber? And I did have numerous posts; scan the thread.

Goodnight.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Do you have any, you know, points to back that up? Its just that me and several other members have argued it for literally hundreds of posts and still havent come to a conclusion. I personally dont see how Vader can win against a practicioner of force lightning - it will simply fry his circuitry. But im sure Darth Subjekt will be quick to come up with a reason

And Vader couldn't (I don't know this sounds a little crazy) block the lighting with his lightsaber like Obi-Wan and Mace did? I may be just talking crazy now but if Vader moved fast enough to block Han's blaster I'm pretty sure Vader wouldn't have a problem holding a lightsaber.

Also I doubt Dooku would know that about Vader. Really only like the Emperor and Tarkin knew who Vader was before he went into the suit (expect for of course Obi-Wan and Yoda).

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Do you have any, you know, points to back that up? Its just that me and several other members have argued it for literally hundreds of posts and still havent come to a conclusion. I personally dont see how Vader can win against a practicioner of force lightning - it will simply fry his circuitry. But im sure Darth Subjekt will be quick to come up with a reason O sure, for his force crush. just Play eaw, for his force push, just read empire volume1 and for his lightsaber skills, read the passage from wookie and play the game jedi academy, the game itself backs that passage of his lightsaber skills

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Do you have any, you know, points to back that up? Its just that me and several other members have argued it for literally hundreds of posts and still havent come to a conclusion. I personally don't see how Vader can win against a practicioner of force lightning - it will simply fry his circuitry. But im sure Darth Subjekt will be quick to come up with a reason

No no, you're mistaking me for kadesh...i use logic....

you never answered my question before...how many force users has Dooku killed with lightning in the movies? How many people period? He only hit Anakin once, and he's the ONLY one...the other two blocked it...easily. Lightning does NOT guarantee a victory. Please argue that it does. You cant shoot lightning with a saber in your face or the force around your throat. You say he can break his concentration, but there's nothing to suggest that he will or even can. You don't know how Dooku would react, anything other than what we've seen happen to it's victims, is pure speculation. Did Dooku use it against him in ROTS? No. And really before anyone starts, it's unfair to use any of Dooku's exploits or accomplishments cause people will cry like little whiny b!tches if you use Vader's due to 30 year old technology, so what's good for the goose is good for the gander, its either all or nothing in that department. (except Vader using lightning - direct contradiction) :/

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
No no, you're mistaking me for kadesh...i use logic....

you never answered my question before...how many force users has Dooku killed with lightning in the movies? How many people period? He only hit Anakin once, and he's the ONLY one...the other two blocked it...easily. Lightning does NOT guarantee a victory. Please argue that it does. You cant shoot lightning with a saber in your face or the force around your throat. You say he can break his concentration, but there's nothing to suggest that he will or even can. You don't know how Dooku would react, anything other than what we've seen happen to it's victims, is pure speculation. Did Dooku use it against him in ROTS? No. And really before anyone starts, it's unfair to use any of Dooku's exploits or accomplishments cause people will cry like little whiny b!tches if you use Vader's due to 30 year old technology, so what's good for the goose is good for the gander, its either all or nothing in that department. (except Vader using lightning - direct contradiction) :/

.............. He was talking to me not you

first off i was kidding....second off, if he drops my name in his post, he was talking to/about me...and i could care less, you nor anybody else can or is going to tell me when i can or cant post.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
first off i was kidding....second off, if he drops my name in his post, he was talking to/about me...and i could care less, you nor anybody else can or is going to tell me when i can or cant post.

i never said you cant post, chill man i was just telling you he was talking to me

with a mean face...and i was just telling you that since he dropped my name, it was an invite to reply. I'm cool, breeze...

Originally posted by Advent
please do not use the same rehashed argument of "Anakin beat Dooku before, Vader can do it!".

A New Hope novel says that both Vader and Obi Wan have become more powerful since the last time they fought.

^So true.^
Why has that not been mentioned?

Because it is irrelevant. ROTS Anakin and Dath Vader (OT) are two completely different fighters. Saying that because Dooku lost to ROTS Anakin he must lose to Vader is a bad way of looking at it. It could be seen as an A>B>C argument, which usually mean nothing.

Vader has greater force mastery, but Anakin would cut his ass up in a saber fight.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Vader has greater force mastery, but Anakin would cut his ass up in a saber fight. o? anakin would cut someone up with a greater mastery of his lightsaber form? And if vader were to ever fight anakin, he would know the tactics and how anakin fights, why? because he was once anakin and he knows the mistakes he had made

But in terms of duelling his speed is severely impaired. He has to rely on brute strength to win a lightsaber fight. Knowing his old weaknesses etc are besides the point - due to the limitations of his suit there is nothing e can do to fix them.

Couldn't we sugest the fact that those movies were made 20+ years ago and it would extremeley hard and uncomfortable to move in the suit when acting. I heard somewhere that David Prowse had to take 5 minute filming periods. If Yoda, Tyranus, and Sidious can use the Force to amplify thier acrobatics and speed why can't Vader.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Because it is irrelevant. ROTS Anakin and Dath Vader (OT) are two completely different fighters. Saying that because Dooku lost to ROTS Anakin he must lose to Vader is a bad way of looking at it. It could be seen as an A>B>C argument, which usually mean nothing.

It's far from irrelevant. It at least helps Vader's case more than Dookus. And Vader is different in the regard that he is more level headed, has a more powerful grip of the dark side, has armor that would be helpful against Makashi, has much more physical strength and uses it in his fighting style, and knows more (Vader is a mystery of capabilities to Dooku, while I'm sure Vader remembers perfectly well what Dooku can do), basically, he has grown in overall power (ANH Novel), but changed. These changes, however, all seem to be in ways that would help against Dooku, more than hinder. The only potential problem is the decrease in mobility, but, this is usually over exaggerated, because his powerful style is basically a hold-your-ground type of fighting, which may make it seem like he is not manuverable, and, has been shown that when he needs to, he can be very agile (lots of novels and comics, like Purge, RODV, and especially Crimson Empire). Another potential problem is the force lightning, but, a saber can block it easily enough.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
But in terms of duelling his speed is severely impaired. He has to rely on brute strength to win a lightsaber fight. Knowing his old weaknesses etc are besides the point - due to the limitations of his suit there is nothing e can do to fix them.
It would be a good idea to read this i ripped out of wookie and i can prove to you its true, remember in jedi academy when jaden stumbled into vaders training room with droids? this is the one down here

Around 3.5 ABY, Vader had ordered ASP-19 droids, lightsaber combat droids based off the ASP-series droid, produced to fight him in sparring matches. They were faster and stronger than an ordinary man, and programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen fighting styles. Vader defeated them time and again, and ordered a new, improved batch of them. As his finesse improved they became too easy to defeat, even in a two-on-one match.


Originally posted by jollyjim311
It's far from irrelevant. It at least helps Vader's case more than Dookus. And Vader is different in the regard that he is more level headed, has a more powerful grip of the dark side, has armor that would be helpful against Makashi, has much more physical strength and uses it in his fighting style, and knows more (Vader is a mystery of capabilities to Dooku, while I'm sure Vader remembers perfectly well what Dooku can do), basically, he has grown in overall power (ANH Novel), but changed. These changes, however, all seem to be in ways that would help against Dooku, more than hinder. The only potential problem is the decrease in mobility, but, this is usually over exaggerated, because his powerful style is basically a hold-your-ground type of fighting, which may make it seem like he is not manuverable, and, has been shown that when he needs to, he can be very agile (lots of novels and comics, like Purge, RODV, and especially Crimson Empire). Another potential problem is the force lightning, but, a saber can block it easily enough. And lets not forget that according to palpatine the smartest guy in SW, told himself that vaders limitation of his potential is indeed mental,psycological and not physical. And he even told himself "sith power resides in the will not flesh" and Darth sion has proven this to us, he was alive and became powerful due to his will