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ROTS versions of the first team. An all out battle. Which team of Sith whin?

Note: No insta-kill for Traya.

Palpatine's team by a nice margin

Revan, Malak and Traya should easily win this. Revan alone is probably more powerful than any of these people, add in Traya and Malak and it's overkill.

Revan takes Sidious, Malak takes Tyranus and Traya takes Vader, Vader might be able to eventually take Traya but by the time he does (if he does) Tyranus and Sidious are dead and Malak + Revan pwn Vader badly.

Honestly, I don't see Vader lasting that long.

How does Revan take Sidious, when Sidious is stated to be the most powerful sith lord IN HISTORY at the time of ROTS? And the fact that by TPM he was more powerful than Bane, and that mean's Bane at his highest point, not just the one we see in POD!

Shame that the idea Revan could take Sidious, Dooku and Anakin is only fanboyism of the highest extent. Let's look at who they are: Dooku, who was agreed to be able to give Traya a fight or even beat her. Same goes for Malak. Agreed on both points that he can either stalemate or beat either of them in previous topics. Anakin beat Doou. So, if Traya will have problems with Dooku, she will have even more problems with Vader. Dooku was not only powerful, but intelligent. Malak was a hopeless idiot. He couldn't have done half of what was done had it not been for Revan. Dooku will definitely give him one hell of a go and Vader will dispatch Traya pretty early on and then help double-team Malak.

Sidious>Revan, Darthsith. Just TRY to prove it wrong. Malak>Dooku? Advent's shut that up long, long since. And Lucas's stated to be on the level of Maul or Dooku, at eighty percent of Palpatine? He's not weak. At all

Where's it said that ROTS Sidious is the most powerful sith lord in history? Heck, where does it say that he was more powerful than Bane?

Nonsense. Make your case, don't parrot that `the consensus` is `many people agree that` or so on. Appealing to the majority is a logical fallacy.



^ See above. This is annoying.



Au contraire. Anakin never engaged Dooku in a force duel, or the like. He engages him in lightsabre combat. We don't have any canon information on Traya's lightsabre abilities whatsoever.



Irrelevant. Malak isn't shown to be a stupid person, and quite frankly; since when has intelligence been a requirement for power? Anakin isn't precisely the sharpest tool in the shed, yet he's still a force to be reckoned with.



Honestly, you need to come up with more than spouting out `the consensus` or coming up with blatent untruths.

Check out the Dooku/Malak topic, then... Sorry if I have comprehended the use of the Search function and you have not.



If you're as dumb as a brick, I don't care how strong you are. you're still a brick. or are you saying Leatherface is a force to be reckoned with because he's got a chainsaw? Well, let's put him against another, not insanely retarded guy with a chainsaw. Who will win?



Yes, it is annoying. Maybe you should look in other topics for info and if these things have been discussed before. You might learn something.

Sidious is good but their is no guarantee that he can always win in every fight.

Revan will give him one hell of a fight anyways. All Revan needs is to use his deadly "Force Storm" and Sidious along with his other companions will be in serious trouble.

Revan also knows some other deadly Dark Side powers that have not been revealed yet. So he is not to be under-estimated.

About Malak!

Malak is a good match for Dooku. Both of these Sith are experienced Makashi duelists. Malak is also very strong in the force and he demonstrated a good deal of force powers when we encountered him.

Dooku also demonstrates good deal of Force Powers. Both use Force lightening to max effect in battle. Malak can also use "Force Drain", which has not been demonstrated by Dooku.

Seriously, you people need to stop under-estimating Malak. He is definately among the most powerful Sith Lords in Star Wars Saga.

And Malak was not dumb or an idiot.

About Traya!

Traya is also powerful and can give good fight to Vader. Traya has demonstrated some unique force powers and abilities that many Sith Lords have not.

Revan, Malak and Traya have better chance to win this battle.

And wait...Palp doesn't have Force storm? LOL. Wow, just apply Palpatine's name to the first part of your post....Unlike Revan, Palp studied from the Ancients themselves.

About Revan
On DE Palpatine knew Force Storm. No other Force user has ever used Force storm. And you are saying that Revan knows deadly Sith moves that he hasn't revealed yet. Okay Palpatine can devour the Force. He just hasn't revealed it yet. See how retarded that is?

About Malak
Where have you heard that Malak knows Form II? You are just making crap up now. Force drain is only an in-game move like Force heal. So are you saying that people actually have HP and somehow they are able to withstand lightsaber attacks?

About Traya
Okay I agree.

Malak uses the force drain to drain the life of the jedi captives. This is not dependant on gameplay, in fact I'm pretty sure he's shown doing it in a cutscene, so it's canon.

Nikk, if Traya has her instakill, it's pointless to make this thread.

RotS Sidious is likely inferior to Revan (though it is highly unlikely that Dessel's ridiculous assertion that Revan could take all of them), but he would easily be able to wrap him up in a fight for a little while. I see Dooku taking Malak, and I can see Anakin wrapping up Traya in a lightsaber duel. Dooku + Anakin = Traya pwned. Then, Sidious, Dooku, and Anakin can own Revan.

Btw, Swirly, Traya better use the Force quickly, otherwise Anakin will be all over her in a lightsaber fight. One, I don't see her standing much of a chance against him in a contest of lightsabers, and two, being faster, stronger, and more ferocious than her, I doubt she'll be unleashing a monumental Force attack during battle. Dooku was unable to.

Why not? He's displayed far more than any of these people. He'd be able to take any of them alone, adding Traya and Malak is overkill.

Wait, in the novelisation (G-canon), isn't Sidious stated to be the most powerful sith lord EVER? This includes Revan, and it should overrule any source that Revan has to him!

Revan has, in no way, displayed more than Palpatine. Or Dooku.

I believe it was the New Essential Chronology that said he was.

Nikkolas, tNEC is written by an author inside the SW universe, and is thus fallible, and should never be used as the sole source for any point. Sure, credit can be given to events that are detailed inside the guide (though even this can be argued), however the opinion of a historian inside the SW universe (because that's all it is, a deduction based off of what the historian knows)) should never be used, ever.

Kamikz, The ROTS novel shouldn't be counted as canon, too many contradictory elements, and there's also the fact that it's based off of an early script for the movie, not the final draft. And even then, I'm pretty sure there's nothing about Palpatine being the strongest sith ever.

Lightsnake, what exactly has Palpatine done by ROTS? He only really gets truly powerful afterwards.

Originally posted by Dessel
Why not? He's displayed far more than any of these people. He'd be able to take any of them alone, adding Traya and Malak is overkill.

Displayed far more than any of them? Pathetic. Dooku > Malak. Anakin >> Traya in saber skills, and raw power. And, for Sidious, go see Sithisis. He was very powerful in RotS.

That you'd suggest he can take all of them is incompetent.

Yes, his knowledge, achievements, and how the other characters fellate him make it pretty clear that he's damn powerful, Palpatine by ROTS is nothing special.



Sithisis isn't canon.

RotS Sidious is nothing special? Ah, I see. Then, I suppose, given that Dooku or Sidious would lay the smackdown on Malak, he's nothing special either?

Or that DE Sidious would crush Revan in a fight, Revan is nothing special in comparison?

Once again, it's inept of you to dictate who is special and who is not. Darth Bandon is nothing special. RotS Sidious can lift three speeder sized objects, simultaneously, without any effort.



Based on...?

By nothing special, I mean in comparison to titans such as Nihilus and Sion, people who Revan was able to rule over in a sith order where the strongest ruled.



Depends, are we talking SF Malak here, or just normal. I'd wager that SF Malak would defeat them.



We're talking ROTS Sidious here, not DE Sidious.



It's an infinity...

Originally posted by Dessel
Yes, his knowledge, achievements, and how the other characters fellate him make it pretty clear that he's damn powerful, Palpatine by ROTS is nothing special.
Bullshit. Any of what you just said applies to Palpatine



Yes it is

Originally posted by Dessel
By nothing special, I mean in comparison to titans such as Nihilus and Sion, people who Revan was able to rule over in a sith order where the strongest ruled.
Prove Revan even knew those guys



Nope


Doesn't make a difference. Palpatine is a match for any of the other three


Which is why it was referenced in the Visual Guide

So... like I said. Revan must, by your logic, be nothing special in comparison to someone like LotF Luke, LotF Jacen, DE Sidious, or Exar Kun, correct?



Well, considering how we're talking about Malak, with no 'SF' in front of it, it means regular KotoR Malak. Anakin > Malak in swordsmanship (and one can argue in Force powers), and Dooku > Malak all the way around.



Doesn't matter. By your logic, Revan is nothing in comparison to someone like DE Sidious.

OK, this has kind of gotten slightly off topic. But remember, any of the sith in team 1 would be horribly outnumbered, Revan, Malak and Traya all together would be able to easily beat any of these sith.

Originally posted by Dessel
OK, this has kind of gotten slightly off topic. But remember, any of the sith in team 1 would be horribly outnumbered, Revan, Malak and Traya all together would be able to easily beat any of these sith.

Outnumbered? According to Nikk, it's all three RotS people vs. all three KotoR people.

- Revan vs. Sidious: Revan will likely dominate the fight, but Sidious will give him hell.

- Malak vs. Dooku: Dooku dominates the fight with superior skill, and kills Malak.

- Traya vs. Anakin: Traya doesn't have her instakill, so she'd better use some serious Force powers to put Anakin out of the fight. Anakin WTFpwned Dooku in a lightsaber fight, simply because he overwhelmed him. I can see him doing that to Traya - except quicker.

Then, it's Sidious, Dooku, and Anakin vs. Revan.

Oh, my mistake. I thought it was Sidious or Tyranus or Vader versus the three.

Sidious beats Revan, Vader beats Malak, Tyranus beats Traya. Game, set, match.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Sidious beats Revan, Vader beats Malak, Tyranus beats Traya. Game, set, match.
Over-confidence can lead to defeat my young apprentice!

ROTS Sidious cannot defeat Revan. His Force Lightening cannot stop Revan.

Darth Traya had the ability to wield three or more lightsabers in combat (just like Exar Kun) and she can cause more confusion and trouble for Tyranus and then she can overwhelm him with her force powers.

Vader cannot easily defeat Malak. Remember that Vader is vulnerable to Force Lightening and Malak is also an experienced Duelist. This fight is more based on chance and luck.

Malak even on Leviathan was not weak. He could use his force powers to distract or briefly stop his opponents and then retreat and then return with full strength. He can do the same against Vader.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove Revan even knew those guys
Their is no need to prove that Revan knew those guys!

Nihilus and Sion were never mentioned in KOTOR because they were introduced in KOTOR II. And note that remnants of Revan's Sith Empire actually joined them.

Also, Revan knew that Traya has trained more then one apprentices. I don't remember the source now but someone did mentioned this here in one of the threads.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nope
Star Forge powered Malak will be more then a match for Tyranus and Vader. He is almost immune to Force Power related attacks.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Doesn't make a difference. Palpatine is a match for any of the other three
I agree here but he is match for them in one-on-one basis actually. Not against all three combined!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Revan has, in no way, displayed more than Palpatine. Or Dooku.
Revan has displayed much more then Dooku!

Did you forgot his achievements?

Sidious and Revan > Dooku!

Originally posted by ESB -1138
About Revan
On DE Palpatine knew Force Storm. No other Force user has ever used Force storm. And you are saying that Revan knows deadly Sith moves that he hasn't revealed yet. Okay Palpatine can devour the Force. He just hasn't revealed it yet. See how retarded that is?
We are talking about ROTS Sidious here.

Revan has used "Force Storm" in Lehon against Rakatan Warriors.

Also, have you read "Darth Bane: POD" Novel? if not then read it!

It was revealed in that Novel that Revan knew some other Deadly Dark Side Force Powers besides "Thought Bomb" and "Force Storm".

Originally posted by ESB -1138
About Malak
Where have you heard that Malak knows Form II? You are just making crap up now. Force drain is only an in-game move like Force heal. So are you saying that people actually have HP and somehow they are able to withstand lightsaber attacks?
Many people say that Malak demonstrates Makashi. But it does not matters that whether he uses Makashi or not but I do know that he was second best Duelist in the Jedi Order after Revan.

Force Drain is not an in-game Force Power. It is an ancient Dark Side power that has been used by many Sith Lords in KOTOR and pre-KOTOR era including Revan and Malak.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
About Traya
Okay I agree.
Thanks! you understood my points regarding Traya!

I would advise that you stow your advice and follow it before giving it to others. Some of us have deduced from your other posts that you are a bit arrogant, to throw your opinion around and assume that it will stick, or that we should abide by it. That isn't how it works.



It sure stopped someone as powerful as Mace Windu. Yoda, Sidious, and Count Dooku have all been shown to be capable of deflecting and absorbing Force lightning (except when it's hitting them in the face and they are preoccupied from catching it - Sidious). Revan, however, has not shown such a capacity.

Also, consider that Palpatine was able to lift three car sized objects without any difficulty (simultaneously), which nearly nailed Yoda on three occasions, despite Yoda's immense speed. Prove where Revan is capable of dodging them, or what Sidious may do if he actually puts effort into it.

While I personally believe Revan would dominate the fight, Sidious won't be going down easy (or at all).



I'm not aware of Kun being able to do that, but I'll take your word for it. Count Dooku, however, is stated to be one of the very best duelists in history. The undisputed master of Makashi, which (other than Vaapad), is the ultimate lightsaber fighting form. I wouldn't hesitate to say that Dooku is a much better swordsman than Traya. Then, calculate that Traya's instakill is barred from the fight. I wouldn't put her that much above Dooku in terms of Force usage, if she is at all.

Dooku likely wins.



Vader's raw power and swordsmanship are superior to Malak's own. This is RotS Vader. Not suited Vader. He'll be all over Malak like shit on velcro. Dooku was unable to attempt to use the Force against Anakin, because of Anakin's raw tenacity.

Originally posted by Escape81
I would advise that you stow your advice and follow it before giving it to others. Some of us have deduced from your other posts that you are a bit arrogant, to throw your opinion around and assume that it will stick, or that we should abide by it. That isn't how it works.

And you forgot to look at the conclusion made by jollyjim311?

He never even provided some reasons. Is this is how things work here?

Originally posted by Escape81
It sure stopped someone as powerful as Mace Windu. Yoda, Sidious, and Count Dooku have all been shown to be capable of deflecting and absorbing Force lightning (except when it's hitting them in the face and they are preoccupied from catching it - Sidious). Revan, however, has not shown such a capacity.

Also, consider that Palpatine was able to lift three car sized objects without any difficulty (simultaneously), which nearly nailed Yoda on three occasions, despite Yoda's immense speed. Prove where Revan is capable of dodging them, or what Sidious may do if he actually puts effort into it.
Do you think that a person who can defeat an entire army could not have "immense knowledge in the force" and could do that with just his saber skills?

Use some logic!

Originally posted by Escape81
While I personally believe Revan would dominate the fight, Sidious won't be going down easy (or at all).
I fully agree here!

Sidious is a formidable opponent.

Originally posted by Escape81
I'm not aware of Kun being able to do that, but I'll take your word for it. Count Dooku, however, is stated to be one of the very best duelists in history. The undisputed master of Makashi, which (other than Vaapad), is the ultimate lightsaber fighting form. I wouldn't hesitate to say that Dooku is a much better swordsman than Traya. Then, calculate that Traya's instakill is barred from the fight. I wouldn't put her that much above Dooku in terms of Force usage, if she is at all.

Dooku likely wins.
Well! you made a good case here but remember that Traya's ability to wield more then 3 light sabers will cause distraction and will slow Dooku down and Traya can easily take advantage in that situation.

Originally posted by Escape81
Vader's raw power and swordsmanship are superior to Malak's own. This is RotS Vader. Not suited Vader. He'll be all over Malak like shit on velcro. Dooku was unable to attempt to use the Force against Anakin, because of Anakin's raw tenacity.
And yet this is what is said about Malak!

"Darth Malak was a master swordsman, and an adept Force-user, excelling particularly in such dark side skills as Force lightning, Life Drain, and Force choking. He also excelled in Lightsaber Throw and Stasis. Darth Malak used an improved lightsaber that produced a longer blade, if compared to the standard sabers. The hilt was identical to that of shorter lightsabers."

Now! you think that these abilities are not enough to stop Vader? Pre-Suit Vader does not even knows Force Lightening?

STOP under-estimating MALAK. He was only defeated by Revan and no one else!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan has displayed much more then Dooku!

Did you forgot his achievements?

Sidious and Revan > Dooku!
And Palpatine created a storm
BTW: Force lightning on a greater account is not a storm. Palpatine's flunky Sedriss did that.
Oh, and I read that novel before most anyone else did

Welcome to Palp's world.


Name these pre-KOTOR Dark Lords.

Jollyjim has two things that you do not.

1) His opinion on the matter has been supported by others.
2) He has a reputation, and one that doesn't inspire "I'm always right, you're wrong, so don't bother debating".

As a new guy around here, and someone who does not have the luxary of strong logical support, it isn't your place to decide what happens. Don't try to pass off your opinion as fact.



Pick a new approach of debating with me. The whole arrogant aggressive behavior isn't going to cut it, and it's going to put me in the very same fashion.

Does Revan possess more knowledge than a sixty-something Master of the Dark Side, and heir to Darth Bane's order (who has, guess what, Revan's knowledge and then some)? Does Revan possess more knowledge than the former's eighty-year-old apprentice who has studied both sides of the Force for longer than Revan? No. And, does Darth Revan have more knowledge than a Jedi Grandmaster whose study of the Force and experience calculates to over eight centuries?

No.

So, until you can prove where Revan is capable of absorbing lightning, or that his knowledge equals to that of Dooku, Sidious, and Yoda, you have no point. Force lightning can harm and kill Revan.



You're assuming. Dooku was also a master of "taking advantage" of things. Once again, there is nothing to indicate that Traya is anywhere near as skilled as Dooku is in lightsabers. Without her instakill, her Force attacks won't be as effective. If she's more powerful than someone of the caliber of Count Dooku, it may not be by much at all.



Pre-suit Vader has a ferocity and raw power that knocks the hell out of Malak's. Dooku (who is superior in the Force to Malak) was unable to defeat Anakin, due to Anakin's raw power, and Dooku is trained in the most proficient form of lightsaber combat. Obi-Wan (weaker than Anakin) absorbed Force lightning from Dooku (stronger than Malak) using a lightsaber. Put two and two together. What the hell makes you think Lightning's gonna stop him.

The only one we know who is capable of effortlessly blasting through the defenses afforded by a lightsaber is Sidious.



Shut the hell up, dude. Wanna know why he was defeated by Revan and nobody else?!!?! 'Cause Revan killed him. Hard to be beaten by other people when you're dead.

The only one who beat Vader is Obi-Wan. Whoops! Guess that means only Obi-Wan can beat him? The only one who beat a suited Vader is RotJ Luke. Guess only RotJ Luke can beat him?

Why don't you try using some logic.

Originally posted by Escape81
Jollyjim has two things that you do not.

1) His opinion on the matter has been supported by others.
2) He has a reputation, and one that doesn't inspire "I'm always right, you're wrong, so don't bother debating".

As a new guy around here, and someone who does not have the luxary of strong logical support, it isn't your place to decide what happens. Don't try to pass off your opinion as fact.
His opinions are not supported by all over here!

Just giving conclusions is not enough. Anyways! it's his arguement and not yours so stop pin-pointing me that to whom I should argue with!
Originally posted by Escape81
Pick a new approach of debating with me. The whole arrogant aggressive behavior isn't going to cut it, and it's going to put me in the very same fashion.
Did I used some harsh words against you?

We are just discussing right?

Originally posted by Escape81
Does Revan possess more knowledge than a sixty-something Master of the Dark Side, and heir to Darth Bane's order (who has, guess what, Revan's knowledge and then some)? Does Revan possess more knowledge than the former's eighty-year-old apprentice who has studied both sides of the Force for longer than Revan? No. And, does Darth Revan have more knowledge than a Jedi Grandmaster whose study of the Force and experience calculates to over eight centuries?

No.

So, until you can prove where Revan is capable of absorbing lightning, or that his knowledge equals to that of Dooku, Sidious, and Yoda, you have no point. Force lightning can harm and kill Revan.
Suddenly you put Revan below all others! huh!

You can't stick to a single point can you?

And now "Force Lightening" can kill Revan? Which can be blocked by Light Saber?

Revan's knowledge is stated to be greater then all of the Jedi and Sith in KOTOR period. He could even manipulate Dark Side for his use and this is not enough evidence for you?

Yoda despite his 800 years of experience could not defeat Dooku and Sidious? right?
Originally posted by Escape81
You're assuming. Dooku was also a master of "taking advantage" of things. Once again, there is nothing to indicate that Traya is anywhere near as skilled as Dooku is in lightsabers. Without her instakill, her Force attacks won't be as effective. If she's more powerful than someone of the caliber of Count Dooku, it may not be by much at all.
I believe that Dooku is superior to Traya in Light Saber Skills.

But he needs time to counter many Light Sabers that Traya will pit against him?

And at that point, Traya can take advantage. Is this hard to understand?

Originally posted by Escape81
Pre-suit Vader has a ferocity and raw power that knocks the hell out of Malak's. Dooku (who is superior in the Force to Malak) was unable to defeat Anakin, due to Anakin's raw power, and Dooku is trained in the most proficient form of lightsaber combat. Obi-Wan (weaker than Anakin) absorbed Force lightning from Dooku (stronger than Malak) using a lightsaber. Put two and two together. What the hell makes you think Lightning's gonna stop him.

The only one we know who is capable of effortlessly blasting through the defenses afforded by a lightsaber is Sidious.
Now you are just assuming that what Vader can do agianst Malak.

Dooku was an old man when fought against Anakin in ROTS. Anakin was young and more agile and was also an experienced Duelist and had fought Dooku before to understand his style of combat. So, Anakin had better chance to win that second fight and he did.

And you forgot to note that Dooku actually did not used his force powers against Anakin during the duel in ROTS. He was over-confident!

Malak was young my friend. He was also wise and powerful and an experienced Duelist and he was also physically stronger then pre-suit Vader.

Anakin had no raw power and would rush over his opponents. A technique that worked over OLD Dooku but not on Obi-Wan (who was not even as powerful as Dooku was and got repeatedly pawned by him).

So, what makes you think that Anakin's technique would work over Malak.

You need to get out of this "Anakin Saber Skills better then all" mentality.

What makes you think that Malak would do the same mistake that Dooku did against Anakin?

Originally posted by Escape81
Shut the hell up, dude. Wanna know why he was defeated by Revan and nobody else?!!?! 'Cause Revan killed him. Hard to be beaten by other people when you're dead.

The only one who beat Vader is Obi-Wan. Whoops! Guess that means only Obi-Wan can beat him?

Now you have started insults?

He was defeated by Revan because many believed that only Revan could take him down.

Obi-Wan bested Vader because he was more experienced and not as arrogant as Anakin was!

Do you think that Yoda, Mace and Sidious could not defeat him?

Originally posted by Escape81
The only one who beat a suited Vader is RotJ Luke. Guess only RotJ Luke can beat him?
Why don't you try using some logic.
Well! ROTJ Luke showed us that mighty Vader could be defeated as well.

And Vader's agility and mobility was some what limited by his cyborg suit.

I am using some Logic but you are sticked to you suppossed assumptions about these Jedi and Sith.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Name these pre-KOTOR Dark Lords.
Exar Kun?

Ragnos?

There would be more!

Your opinion isn't supported by anyone, really. So, once again, enough with your "know-it-all" attitude.



Your cocky, jackass approach to debating with me isn't working. Quit acting like you know everything, or what you say is fact, and we'll be fine.



See, now this is what makes me think that you're stupid. READ (!). No one cares about your opinion. So instead of tossing your non-existent weight around here, pay attention to people who know what the hell they're doing.

When did I say that Revan > everybody in knowledge? Answer: I never did. I said it was a personal opinion that I'd put Revan as better than Sidious or Yoda. Doesn't mean he knows everything they do.



Once again: quit being a jackass.

Sidious blew Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hand in RotS.



KotoR period IS NOT the PT period. Point freakin' moot.



He forced Dooku to flee Geonosis, and then gave the Count an ass beating on Vjun.

He stalemated Sidious because Sidious is just that much more powerful than Dooku.



Third example of you being - guess what? A jackass. Is it hard for you to understand that "more sabers doesn't always mean harder time". Anakin used two against Dooku on Geonosis. Didn't stop Dooku from disarming him, and giving him an ass beating.



Pfft yeah... like you aren't assuming...



Dooku was an old man who used the Force to "wear his age better than most people half of his age". Sorry. Don't know many eighty year olds who can kick a twenty year old (Anakin) in the chest and knock him back several feet, into a wall. Well, guess what? Dooku did that.

Dooku's experience >>>>>>>> Anakin's experience.

Guess what? Anakin's raw power >>>>>>>> Dooku's raw power. Anakin was all over him, which is why he won.



Um... Dooku didn't have a chance once Anakin got pissed off.



Really? Doubt it. Size =/= strength in Star Wars. I believe Yoda is the author of a good quote on the subject: "size matters not". On a side note, he must have been a pimp of a Jedi Master.



"Anakin had no raw power".

That sums up your intelligence quite nicely.



Given that Anakin's raw power >>>> Malak's, and Anakin is better than Dooku (who is better than Malak)... I could see him taking this.



You need to get out of this "I can tell people what they need to get out of, because I'm a hard badass" mentality.



Yeah. Because Malak doesn't have a reputation for being an arrogant brute...



When I've been civil, quite nicely, and have asked you to stop REPEATEDLY (!) on various threads, and you continue not to, and you insult my intelligence (and that of others) by thinking you're Mr. Barry Badass, yes, it wears on my patience.



Guess what? That doesn't make sense at all. He was defeated by Revan because Revan was better than him. Not unlike Anakin.



Obi-Wan bested Anakin because his lightsaber form allowed him to grapple with Anakin's lightsaber form, but Obi-Wan was forced to constantly give ground, because even a young, defensive duelist like himself (with more experience) couldn't contend with Anakin's power. And, to top it off, Obi-Wan knew Anakin better than he knew the back of his own hand.



I was using your own logic.



By someone of raw power, and especially when Vader is conflicted about fighting his son.



But his experience, knowledge, and Force powers increased. Fair trade.

Are you deliberately trying to be stupid? The `consensus` can never be used in a debate; insofar as it's just a bastardised appeal to majority in most cases. Either you post information here, or you shut the **** up. Period.



You've basically twisted my words, insofar as I used Anakin as an example of what I meant. Anakin isn't exactly a thinker, but he's still powerful.



This was such an obvious strawman. You've twisted my argument, not even attempted to reply to the main point; then tried to smash it down. Guess what? Malak isn't indicated to be stupid or an imbecile. The most anyone comments on him is that he made rash decisions, or that Revan eclipsed him in intelligence.



Guess what? The onus is upon you to transplant that information here. I'm not gallavanting through threads just to find some obscure information, or to see that the `consensus was` et cetera.

Actually, this is fairly well answered and rebutted in my first post. Why don't you stop spouting out that `0mg t3h c0ns3nsuS w4s!!111` and actually provide information in this thread.

Escape81, I can resort to insulting as well. Don't forget this but I will be civil for now.

Originally posted by Escape81
Your opinion isn't supported by anyone, really. So, once again, enough with your "know-it-all" attitude.
I use some sense that you cannot understand. Simple!

Originally posted by Escape81
Your cocky, jackass approach to debating with me isn't working. Quit acting like you know everything, or what you say is fact, and we'll be fine.
I never said that I know everything but you are trying to show me that you actually know everything and no one should argue against you. Am I right?

Originally posted by Escape81
See, now this is what makes me think that you're stupid. READ (!). No one cares about your opinion. So instead of tossing your non-existent weight around here, pay attention to people who know what the hell they're doing.
I don't care if someone cares about my opinon or not but some in this thread share the same views that I have mentioned.

You might be an old member here but that does not means that you know better then all.

Originally posted by Escape81
When did I say that Revan > everybody in knowledge? Answer: I never did. I said it was a personal opinion that I'd put Revan as better than Sidious or Yoda. Doesn't mean he knows everything they do.
I never said that you mentioned that Revan > everybody but instead you were trying to tell me that Revan < Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, Mace etc.

I put him on par with them.

Originally posted by Escape81
Once again: quit being a jackass.

Sidious blew Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hand in RotS.
Well! that is a good point but Revan has "Force Immunity", which gives him power to absord many "Force Powers" for a certain time-period.

Revan also wears special suit that might have some defenses of its own.

Originally posted by Escape81
KotoR period IS NOT the PT period. Point freakin' moot.
We are comparing KOTOR period Sith against that of PT period Sith? right?

Point not moot.

Originally posted by Escape81
He forced Dooku to flee Geonosis, and then gave the Count an ass beating on Vjun.

He stalemated Sidious because Sidious is just that much more powerful than Dooku.
I agree and I believe that Yoda is more powerful then Dooku.

But some said that Dooku wanted to flee in-order to safe-guard the secrets of "Death Star".

Originally posted by Escape81
Third example of you being - guess what? A jackass. Is it hard for you to understand that "more sabers doesn't always mean harder time". Anakin used two against Dooku on Geonosis. Didn't stop Dooku from disarming him, and giving him an ass beating.
Traya does not wields those Light Sabers. She uses Force to let those Light Sabers fight against opponents on their own and she stands back.

have you forgotten the final fight in KOTOR II? or have you not played KOTOR II?

Perhaps! you don't even know what I am talking about!

Originally posted by Escape81
Pfft yeah... like you aren't assuming...
Many people including you assume here!

We are not the creators of Star Wars characters.

Originally posted by Escape81
Dooku was an old man who used the Force to "wear his age better than most people half of his age". Sorry. Don't know many eighty year olds who can kick a twenty year old (Anakin) in the chest and knock him back several feet, into a wall. Well, guess what? Dooku did that.

Dooku's experience >>>>>>>> Anakin's experience.

Guess what? Anakin's raw power >>>>>>>> Dooku's raw power. Anakin was all over him, which is why he won.
Raw power is determined by Strength.

Anakin used "anger" to influence his duel potential against Dooku who is an old man by that time and was not as agile as he would be in his younger age, so Anakin over-powered him.

Originally posted by Escape81
Um... Dooku didn't have a chance once Anakin got pissed off.
Yeah! he got angry and his anger fueled his saber potential.

Originally posted by Escape81
Really? Doubt it. Size =/= strength in Star Wars. I believe Yoda is the author of a good quote on the subject: "size matters not". On a side note, he must have been a pimp of a Jedi Master.
Strength and Size are two different things.

Bigger Size does not necessarily means more strength. But "Size does Matter" theory also exists.

Originally posted by Escape81
"Anakin had no raw power".

That sums up your intelligence quite nicely.
Raw Power is a natural power demonstrated by "Strength" of an individual in my mind.

It has nothing to do with Force Knowledge, experience or Saber skills. But Raw Power can have an impact on Saber Skills.

Anakin used "anger" to boost his Saber Skills.

"Anger" is not a sign of "Raw Power".

Originally posted by Escape81
Given that Anakin's raw power >>>> Malak's, and Anakin is better than Dooku (who is better than Malak)... I could see him taking this.
Now! you never stop assuming regarding Anakin and continue to under-estimate Malak, then I can't do much about it.

Malak's physical strength is much greater then that of Anakin, so he has "Raw Power" at his disposal.

Anakin's "anger" might be greater then that of Malak, so he might hold some advantage in pushing back Malak in a Saber Duel but still not enough to guarantee a victory.

Anakin might even take on Malak after a long duel but Malak would not just rely on his duel potentail. Because Malak is young and physically stronger then Dooku so he can manage saber fight better then Dooku.

Originally posted by Escape81
You need to get out of this "I can tell people what they need to get out of, because I'm a hard badass" mentality.
I can explain my views to anyone and this freedom is provided to us all in these discussion forums? right?

Originally posted by Escape81
Yeah. Because Malak doesn't have a reputation for being an arrogant brute...
And so does Anakin or Pre-suit Vader. Point moot here!

If Malak and Dooku can commit mistakes then Anakin can also commit mistakes and he did one in his fight against Obi-Wan and lost.

Originally posted by Escape81
When I've been civil, quite nicely, and have asked you to stop REPEATEDLY (!) on various threads, and you continue not to, and you insult my intelligence (and that of others) by thinking you're Mr. Barry Badass, yes, it wears on my patience.
Discussions should stay civil at all costs. You should be tolerant towards views of others but you are not.

You are accustomed to what you say and believe and thats it. Pointing a fingure on others is easy but the rest of fingures point back on us as well.

Originally posted by Escape81
Guess what? That doesn't make sense at all. He was defeated by Revan because Revan was better than him. Not unlike Anakin.
Well! Revan defeated him in combat. Not Anakin and you cannot prove that he can do so!

Because Anakin is not as powerful as Revan, unless you believe otherwise!

Originally posted by Escape81
Obi-Wan bested Anakin because his lightsaber form allowed him to grapple with Anakin's lightsaber form, but Obi-Wan was forced to constantly give ground, because even a young, defensive duelist like himself (with more experience) couldn't contend with Anakin's power. And, to top it off, Obi-Wan knew Anakin better than he knew the back of his own hand.
Anakin also understood Obi-Wan very well and rescued him on many occassions during dangerous situations.

Anakin lost because he was solely relying on "Anger" and forgot that "Obi-Wan was not an old man like Dooku" and was also being over-confident but he got his ass handed to him very well.

Originally posted by Escape81
By someone of raw power, and especially when Vader is conflicted about fighting his son.
Now! Cyborg Vader did had "Raw Power" due to enormous strength of his suit.

And yes! I believe that Vader was little less enthusiastic in kiling his son and this was demonstrated by his "defensive approach" in that fight.

I said this before.

Originally posted by Escape81
But his experience, knowledge, and Force powers increased. Fair trade.
I agree!

But you also said that more anger and higher speed can allow you to overwhelm any opponent regardless of the capabilities of that opponent.

Pre-Suit Anakin did not had enough strength but had more anger and agility actually.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
I believe it was the New Essential Chronology that said he was.




No, it was the novelisation. And Dessel or S W Legend or whoever said so, it IS canon, no matter how YOU think about it, it is! And yes it is, read the part where Yoda fight's Sidious in the senate chamber, it does say he is the most powerful sith in history!

Originally posted by kamikz
No, it was the novelisation. And Dessel or S W Legend or whoever said so, it IS canon, no matter how YOU think about it, it is! And yes it is, read the part where Yoda fight's Sidious in the senate chamber, it does say he is the most powerful sith in history!
I fully agree that Sidious is most powerful Sith Lord but when fighting against opponents that are on par with him or even close to him means that they are very dangerous and can defeat Sidious.

I believe that outcome of fight can be decided by many factors. Even pure luck can fetch victory in some circumstances.

But being most powerful does not means being invincible.

We all know that what happened to Marka Ragnos!

Whoa, sorry Escape, I shouldn't have to be an issue to debate. It distracts from the fight. If it's a problem I'll say why I think the ROTS team wins, although, it might just be restating arguments.
(All quotes from the ROTS novelization)

First of all, these Sith are from a more powerful era. "The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.
They had become new."

Sidious > Revan
"Lord of all Sith"
He's tied with Yoda, who is better than Revan. "The avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known..."
Can lift up 3 senate pods with ease.
Owned 3 of the best swordsmen in a few seconds.
Revan has never shown us anything near the raw power of Sidious, and has had much less time and a master not as powerful to guide him and focus that power.

Tyranus > Traya.
Tyranus put up a good fight with the force against Yoda, and could resist any force attacks from Traya long enough to get into melee. There he would stomp her in under 7 seconds, easily. As for levitating 3 lightsabers, Tyranus has fought(and crushed) Greivous, Asajj, and Sora, who all have multiple lightsabers.
"He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall..."

Vader > Malak
Malak is a moron, and Vader is hot headed.
Vader has way more raw power than Malak.
"The thunderstorm that was Skywalker in the Force boiled with sudden power."
"Mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step."
"...wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-"
"The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-
Skywalker was getting stronger."
"Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade. "
"That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze."
Dooku was scared shitless of what would happen if Anakin broke through the boundaries of his Jedi training, which is what happens in this fight.
Anakin gets stronger the longer he fights.
"Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless...Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke. "

Meh. I don't feel like posting anything else.

Well both teams can win but it depends upon who takes who first.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
First of all, these Sith are from a more powerful era. "The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.
They had become new."
The Sith had changed indeed but not by much.

Some argue that Sidious got a huge chunck of his knowledge of various Dark Side powers from holocrons of Ancient Sith.

And these so called modern Sith Lords (like their predecessors) display same kind of arrogance, anger, beliefs and purposes.

Like all other powerful Sith Lords before Sidious, Sidious also wanted the same thing - "To rule the galaxy and to destroy the Jedi".

Every damn Sith Lord had same thing in his/her mind.

So, I don't understand that what has actually changed?

If you say that modern Sith Lords had more knowledge of the force then their predecessors, then sadly the tales of "Expanded Universe" is proving you 100% wrong.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Sidious > Revan
"Lord of all Sith"
He's tied with Yoda, who is better than Revan. "The avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known..."
Can lift up 3 senate pods with ease.
Owned 3 of the best swordsmen in a few seconds.
Revan has never shown us anything near the raw power of Sidious, and has had much less time and a master not as powerful to guide him and focus that power.
Try to read some posts before coming up with same arguements again and again.

Here are some achievements of Revan:

- Revan became "Dark Lord of the Sith" and created a huge Sith Empire. This achievement alone rivals that of Sidious.

- He survived a betrayal that was impossible to survive. A shot fired by a large Laser Canon of an advanced Sith Cruiser. How many can survive this shot? I cannot say because Revan took a direct hit and his mind was almost destroyed but he was still alive. Very amazing indeed.

- Then he killed an entire army of Sith on Star Forge. To accomplish this, you need to be very very powerful in the force and also be superb in all other aspects as well. And this achievement shows that Revan was no less powerful then Yoda.

- He also killed a very powerful Sith Lord "SF powered Malak", whose powers were heavily boosted by Star Forge.

- Star Forge was a dangerous weapon to depend upon and yet Malak was able to take advantage from its power, which is an amazing achievement and so could have Revan. But Malak indicated that SF powered Revan would be "invincible". Now imagine Revan's power.

- Revan also demonstrated "Force Storm" on Lehon planet and killed large number of enemies in a single attack with it.

- Revan alone was nominated as a "Prodigcal Knight" by master Vandar, which was due to his immense skills in Saber Combat.

- And Revan alone was a formidable opponent for an entire Sith Empire that was capable enough to destroy entire worlds and Revan demonstrated his immense power in the Star Forge itself. Even his "SF powered enemies" (Bastilla and Malak) could not stop him.

- Revan was even heavily appreciated by his Mandelorian enemies, who seldom respect anyone which is noticeable.

Now, all these achievements are not enough in your eyes?

Do you think that Revan achieved this all due to just his Saber Skills?

No Sir! Revan was actually very strong in the force and he had immense knowledge of both Dark Side and Light Side powers.

These are reasons that Revan is so much respected and considered to be very powerful. His achievements speak volumes about his power.

And the reason that the Revan's reign as a Sith Lord is short lived is because of betrayal. Stop blaming Revan for his short-lived reign!

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Tyranus > Traya.
Tyranus put up a good fight with the force against Yoda, and could resist any force attacks from Traya long enough to get into melee. There he would stomp her in under 7 seconds, easily. As for levitating 3 lightsabers, Tyranus has fought(and crushed) Greivous, Asajj, and Sora, who all have multiple lightsabers.
"He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall..."
I believe that Tyranus is better then Traya but this fight is more dependant on luck.

Traya after distracting Dooku with her "force powered light sabers" will not just weight for him to end that challenge, She will try to take advantage from this distraction and this can be end for Dooku.

I don't need to say more!

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Vader > Malak
Malak is a moron, and Vader is hot headed.
Vader has way more raw power than Malak.
"The thunderstorm that was Skywalker in the Force boiled with sudden power."
"Mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step."
"...wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-"
"The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-
Skywalker was getting stronger."
"Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade. "
"That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze."
Dooku was scared shitless of what would happen if Anakin broke through the boundaries of his Jedi training, which is what happens in this fight.
Anakin gets stronger the longer he fights.
"Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless...Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke. "

Meh. I don't feel like posting anything else.
The words used in novelization are good but they look good in novels and not in actual fights.

Anakin's anger fueled him and also his potential with the Light Saber, and add to this his young age, more agility and already exceptional Light Saber skills, he proved to be too much for an old and physically weak Dooku.

This is what we could easily notice in that fight in ROTS.

Now, Malak is a totally different case!

Malak (unlike) Dooku is young, physically very strong and is more agile.

His Light Saber skills are also very good (just like that of Dooku) but he is not physically weak and old.

Old age always takes toll on your body.

If you are so fond of mentioning Anakin's victory over Dooku, then you also need to look what happened in case of fight against Obi-Wan, who was young.

I know that Obi-Wan knew Anakin very well but so did Anakin knew Obi-Wan more then enough to fight him. This point is already moot because of both cases cancelling the effect of each other.

And Malak is also very strong in the force (like Dooku) and Malak even demonstrates "Force Drain".

These things should be kept in mind when discussing fight against Malak.

Malak was no less impressive and powerful then Dooku and add to this, he was young and physically strong as well.

This fight can end up in both ways but Malak has more chances to win due to his obvious advantages.

Revan didn't survive a hit from a ship, his ship did.
Revan may have sneaked through the Star Forge.
Revan is powerful, no doubt, but not good enough to take down Sidious.
Sidious owned three of the best swordsmen in seconds, and has more raw power (although Palpatine doesn't completely outclass him here)/ experience than Revan.

Dooku owns Traya. He has far better showings.
You can't count luck as a factor in a fight.

" pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away. "
Excuse me?
Looks like age isn't a factor, couple this with Malak being brash and Dookus force mastery becoming "a joke" while fighting Anakin, Looks like Anakin will whoop up on Malak.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Revan didn't survive a hit from a ship, his ship did.
Revan may have sneaked through the Star Forge.
Revan is powerful, no doubt, but not good enough to take down Sidious.
Sidious owned three of the best swordsmen in seconds, and has more raw power (although Palpatine doesn't completely outclass him here)/ experience than Revan.
Revan's ship was completely destroyed during the betrayal, though the Jedi escaped before the Cruiser went down. This was mentioned in KOTOR.

Sidious is not invincible. Yes! Sidious is little more powerful then Revan and I admit this fact but Revan is still a very dangerous opponent for him.

And Revan had no less raw power then Sidious and this was proved on Star Forge.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Dooku owns Traya. He has far better showings.
You can't count luck as a factor in a fight.
Well! I can accept this because it is possible for Dooku to defeat Traya but it depends that if Dooku can evade distraction fast enough.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
" pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away. "
Excuse me?
Looks like age isn't a factor, couple this with Malak being brash and Dookus force mastery becoming "a joke" while fighting Anakin, Looks like Anakin will whoop up on Malak.

Dooku was a "Force User" and it is obvious that he draws his power from force itself just like all other Jedi and Sith.

But that does not means that OLD age has no impact on him. If he was young, then perhaps would be more fast and agile.

If his age was not the full reason then his "over-confidence" did led him to his failure.

And Anakin also became over-confident after killing Dooku.

And seriously, Dooku performed much better and seemed more agile in AOTC when he faced Yoda.

Malak has different approach for fighting his enemies. He uses other means more to dispatch his enemies then actually getting in a Saber Combat.

And given that he had more knowledge of Force then "Pre-Suit Vader", and he would use that knowledge on his enemies first so Vader will be pawned.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well both teams can win but it depends upon who takes who first.


The Sith had changed indeed but not by much.

Some argue that Sidious got a huge chunck of his knowledge of various Dark Side powers from holocrons of Ancient Sith.
More than any other Dark Lord. He also summons up the souls of long dead dark lords to take their knowledge.

But thanks to Bane, are far more effective

And unlike every last one of them: He succeeded

Power, method, ability, etc

Actually, the EU is backing us up here. Those Ancients were so GODLY, an entire army of them was beaten by a force consisting of four Jedi. Wowee!


back to ya

He didn't destroy the Republic or the Jedi. No rivalry

Because a Jedi decided to save his life. OMG. Palpatine survived a betrayal impossible to survive on his own after his body was disintegrated.
Did you miss how BASTILA kept Revan alive?

Prove it. Last I saw, his comrades were there

Wow, so have so many other Jedi. In fact, this may put him under Yoda who was sttaed to be the strongest foe of the Darkness and Revan falls under that category

Wow, unsubstantiated hyperbole

Prove it

Do you even know what prodigal means? They were talking about his redemption

You're some kind of fanboy. Last I checked, Revan turned Bastila back to the light

Wow, big ****ing deal, they respect any decent tactician

Compared to someone who destroyed the Jedi Order, Republic, created a galaxy wide empire, survived the grave itself to achieve true immortality and destroy a fleet in his anger....nope

Noone's claiming that

Wow, so did Palpatine!

Same as Palpatine's. Yoda's still stronger than Revan, by the EU's measure!

You mean putting Malak close by in a position of power? How pathetic of Revan. Luke as of Courtship of Princess Leia survived what Revan got on that ship


It's really not. Two out of three on Revan's team go down in short order

As you're wrong


Yeah, too ****ing bad for you, they're canon

IE: He was better

Yep, Anakin was better
? Dooku can outfight an all out Grievous.

Stronger and faster than Grievous?

You understand strength and speed usually mean jack in a real sword duel between masters, right? Malak is not a master of Form V. And Malak is not faster nor stronger than a full out Grievous

Not when you use the Force. Yoda lifts a goddamn house on his back at one point

Irrelevant. Obi-wan taught Anakin how to fight

Obi-wan is the best Soresu practioner ever, anakin wasn't thinking straight due to Padme....forget that?

An obsolete ability. He'd have used it on Revan if it were so godly

Kept in mind. Dooku wins

And Dooku has experience with those opponents

Tell that to Grievous

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Exar Kun?

Ragnos?

There would be more!

Ooooh, wrong: Ragnos used a scepter. Kun used a giant obelish.

Tsk, tsk, actual usage. Not artifact/technology bullshit, thanks

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I fully agree that Sidious is most powerful Sith Lord but when fighting against opponents that are on par with him or even close to him means that they are very dangerous and can defeat Sidious.

I believe that outcome of fight can be decided by many factors. Even pure luck can fetch victory in some circumstances.

But being most powerful does not means being invincible.

We all know that what happened to Marka Ragnos!



Yes, but we cannot take "luck" in account in vs matches, anything could happen, therefore, it's better to put it like this, the most powerful of the match wins the match!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
More than any other Dark Lord. He also summons up the souls of long dead dark lords to take their knowledge.
I agree!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
But thanks to Bane, are far more effective
How did Bane enhanced powers of PT era Sith?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And unlike every last one of them: He succeeded
No! he did not. Some Jedi were still alive (Obi-wan, Yoda and Luke) and they changed the fate of the entire galaxy.

And their was a strong rebellion against his empire. And that "insignificant" rebellion managed to destroy their ultimate weapon "Death Star" twice, despite disposal of advanced weaponry and firepower from Emperor's forces.

So, like all other Sith Lords, Sidious also failed.

And Revan also had the power to wipe out all the Jedi but his goals were different. He was more concerned about the threat from the "True Sith" and was not so eager to destroy "The Republic".

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Power, method, ability, etc
Only Sidious surpassed the best of KOTOR and Pre-KOTOR periods.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Actually, the EU is backing us up here. Those Ancients were so GODLY, an entire army of them was beaten by a force consisting of four Jedi. Wowee!
Only Revan's team managed to destroy the entire Sith Army on Star Forge. Other Jedi Knights went to Star Forge but failed.

Also, ancient Sith Lords demonstrated some powers that were not demonstrated by Sith of PT era. Only Sidious is a valid exception.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He didn't destroy the Republic or the Jedi. No rivalry
But he was capable enough to do so!

But he was a good guy actually and his purpose was different from most other Sith Lords.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Because a Jedi decided to save his life. OMG. Palpatine survived a betrayal impossible to survive on his own after his body was disintegrated.
Did you miss how BASTILA kept Revan alive?
Yes! he survived the attack and Bastilla's help proved to be essential. Guess what ? he could always inspire others with his attractive and charming personality.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove it. Last I saw, his comrades were there
Those comrades could not last longer then 15 minutes on their own against such odds. And Revan's help was crucial and even Malak realized this when his army of Star Forge Battle Droids was crushed.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wow, so have so many other Jedi. In fact, this may put him under Yoda who was sttaed to be the strongest foe of the Darkness and Revan falls under that category
Yoda was not the best Jedi. Luke surpassed him and Revan was an exceptional match for him as well. He was capable enough to stalemate Yoda in a fight at-least.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wow, unsubstantiated hyperbole
This information is mentioned in KOTOR and most things mentioned in KOTOR are canon.

Star Forge was the reason for the downfall of Rakatan Super-Empire and Star Forge was also known to consume Force users as well.

Go and play KOTOR to find out the entire story.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove it
This event was illustrated by "The One" to Revan when he met him again on Lehon and "The One" was a leader of one of the factions of Rakatans fighting for control over Lehon.

The One's warriors actually became victims to Darth Revan's deadly "Force Storm".

Go and play KOTOR once again!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Do you even know what prodigal means? They were talking about his redemption
Well! Revan was known to be a Saber Prodigy? am I right?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You're some kind of fanboy. Last I checked, Revan turned Bastila back to the light
I like Revan but I am not his fanboy. I also like Anakin a lot.

Revan turned Bastilla back to light after defeating her at-least 4 times on Star Forge.

You surely know nothing!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wow, big ****ing deal, they respect any decent tactician
And names of others are?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Compared to someone who destroyed the Jedi Order, Republic, created a galaxy wide empire, survived the grave itself to achieve true immortality and destroy a fleet in his anger....nope
Sidious did managed to destroy Jedi Order but he did not managed to eliminate Jedi.

Last time I checked, "Darth Sion" also accomplished this!

The republic was not destroyed actually but it was manipulated by Sidious to join his cause!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Noone's claiming that
Escape81 had some doubts!

Whatever Force Powers I mentioned here, he just said prove it. So, I had to remind him that Revan knew a very good deal of powerful Light Side Force Powers to subdue his enemies because no one and I repeat no one could defeat such large number of enemies just on the basis of Light Saber skills.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wow, so did Palpatine!
I never argued on this about Palpatine.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Same as Palpatine's. Yoda's still stronger than Revan, by the EU's measure!
Revan's position has not been fully determined in EU so your point is moot. His story has to be completed yet!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You mean putting Malak close by in a position of power? How pathetic of Revan. Luke as of Courtship of Princess Leia survived what Revan got on that ship
And Sidious did that too with Vader. And that same Vader betrayed him as well. How pathetic of Sidious.

We are not discussing Luke here!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's really not. Two out of three on Revan's team go down in short order
According to your assumption.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
As you're wrong
Play KOTOR II and then tell me!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, too ****ing bad for you, they're canon
They are canon but words used in it sound more like a "poem" is being recited.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
IE: He was better
I agree that Anakin was better in Saber Skills then Dooku!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yep, Anakin was better
? Dooku can outfight an all out Grievous.
Grevious is irrelevant here!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Stronger and faster than Grievous?
Was Dooku stronger and faster then Grevious as well?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You understand strength and speed usually mean jack in a real sword duel between masters, right? Malak is not a master of Form V. And Malak is not faster nor stronger than a full out Grievous
Wow! strength determines that how much chance you get to hit your opponents in a Melee/Saber combat.

Speed detemines your agility and movements. They can make a lot difference in a Melee/Saber Combat.

Yoda used speed to maximum effect during his fights against many enemies.

Malak's forms are not fully determined yet.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Not when you use the Force. Yoda lifts a goddamn house on his back at one point
Knowledge of Force has nothing to do with OLD Age.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Irrelevant. Obi-wan taught Anakin how to fight
So???

"Darth Imperious" taught "Darth Plagueis" to fight and Plagueis pawned him later on in a saber duel.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Obi-wan is the best Soresu practioner ever, anakin wasn't thinking straight due to Padme....forget that?
No! Anakin was not thinking straight due to his Over-confidence and his arrogance.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
An obsolete ability. He'd have used it on Revan if it were so godly
He uses his force powers on Revan unless Revan uses "Force Immunity".

Force Drain was never obsolete.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Kept in mind. Dooku wins
Wins against Grevious? well yes!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Dooku has experience with those opponents
And yet he lost!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Tell that to Grievous
Grevious was not unbeatable.

Dooku, Mace and Obi-Wan showed this!

And Malak was also an excellent duelist like them!

Thanks for your insignificant analysis though!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I agree!


How did Bane enhanced powers of PT era Sith?
His system of one master one apprentice


To quote the NEC: "For the first time in 25,000 years, the Jedi Order had ceased to exist."

If by 'significant' you mean 'completely weak until they got extremely lucky...'

And got farther than any other one ever did

Not this bullshit again...Revan meant to conquer the Republic, according to any document out there. It was one Sith Lord guarding his domain from others. Revan was EVIL, just look at how he's portrayed in PoD


Possibly others.


Mainly because they were THERE to buy time

Name a single one that wasn't reliant on technology.


Too bad. He didn't

"Conquer and hold territory." Nope, sorry, according to PoD, he was a BAD PERSON as a Sith Lord


I'm sure Palpatine will be glad to put a saber through that dazzling grin of his. And Palpatine could always manipulate people, Dooku could inspire people...so?

Not according to the game.....you'll have to prove up....


Only Luke was above Yoda. ROTs novelization acknowloedges him as the strongest to live up until that point


As is what's in a few other things

actually it was a plague, infighting, slave uprising...

The Infinite Empire fell due to many, many factors

Would you learn what a ****ing Force Storm IS? It's a tear in the fabric of reality, not 'lightning from the sky.

stop acting like an arrogant little jackass because it's really getting on my nerves


Him and twenty other people. So?


Gameplay isn't canon. The only thing canon is he turned her back by refusing to fight her after the battle

Now you just pissed me off, fanboy:
Count Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, han Solo, Ulic Qel-Droma, Etain...


Wow, and it became an Empire! Therefore, the Republic was gone! And last I checked, Sion didn't accomplish a thing on his own. Palpatine did what it took the combined efforts of Revan, Malak, Sion and Nihilus
With FAR less loose ends


Sure, you could. Yoda did


Awwwww, except his allignment is confirmed.


and Palpatine survived his death. Different circumstances, fanboy

Grow up, would you?


Big deal. They're still canon


Why? Dooku was able to tool him when Grievous was bigger, faster and stronger


Just watch the cartoon. No, he wasn't


You're using game stats in this argument?

That's what we call Ataru and compensation

Looks like he didn't use Form V


Sure it does. Older people use the fight to keep them going for the fight. Yoda could fight as long as he wanted with the Force, despite his age


Hey, umm....Supershadow is bullshit. A fraud and a liar


Yet the ROTS novelization asserts it was because of Padme.
Funny that


Never once did that godly instakill drain, HM!

Hm, never saw it used succesfully against someone half decent. Funny, that


Grievous was stronger and faster. Therefore, your point about Malak no longer applies


Nor are Malak and Revan

Wow, pathetic points from a pathetic poster

Palpatine had Vader.

Irrelevant. Palpatine made Vader a tool. He didn't capitalize his work.

If Malak was working for Sion, it'd be different

Originally posted by Dessel
Palpatine had Vader.

You're the King of irrelevent points. Kinda like Legend here, arguing with you gets to the point of ridiculous quickly. Palpatine was the greatest Sith Lord in terms of accomplishments. As LS said, Vader was a tool. He could've done it himself, but chose to have Vader hunt down the remaining Jedi.

Don't like it? Disagree with it? Too freakin' bad.

All I was saying was that Palpatine didn't achieve it on his own, whether you think he needed to or not, he shouldn't get all the credit.

Except he did. Why? he was responsible for all of it. He masterminded and planned it. The tools he used matter not: The credit is his

That's just silly, you can use the word 'tool' and whatever, but the fact is that Vader deserves as much of the credit.

Originally posted by Dessel
That's just silly, you can use the word 'tool' and whatever, but the fact is that Vader deserves as much of the credit.

Did Vader plan the destruction of the Jedi Order?

No.

Did Vader plan the dissolution of the Empire?

No.

Did Vader plan the course of the Clone Wars?

No.

I don't care if you think Vader deserves the credit. Palpatine planned it all and used his henchmen to execute it. Vader had zero part of the planning process.

Point moot.

You don't dictate what is fact and what is not. Vader doesn't deserve half the credit.

Exactly. It's like saying that the clones should have as much credit as well, cause they were involved, or Dooku, or Grievous, but they shouldn't.....

Why would Vader get any credit? He did nothing except for leading some clones into the temple. Dooku deserves the most credit after Sidious imo, but even then he was still being told what to do by Palpatine. Sidious had control of everything, therefore gets credit for everything.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
His system of one master one apprentice
Well! Bane was a talented individual indeed!

But this technique was used to disguise the existance of Sith Lords. It has nothing to do with enhancement of Force Knowledge.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
To quote the NEC: "For the first time in 25,000 years, the Jedi Order had ceased to exist."
Then KOTOR II is wrong as well?

Darth Sion almost wiped out entire Jedi Order and only Jed Exile was last hope.

Sounds like that SW-Canon stories are conflicting with each other.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If by 'significant' you mean 'completely weak until they got extremely lucky...'
They were lucky but they accomplished the impossible. How did they do it is secondary but they destroyed the Death Star. End of Story!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And got farther than any other one ever did
I agree!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Not this bullshit again...Revan meant to conquer the Republic, according to any document out there. It was one Sith Lord guarding his domain from others. Revan was EVIL, just look at how he's portrayed in PoD
Revan wanted to conquer Republic but not like Malak. He spared many of the important assets that Republic had.

He wanted to conquer Republic but he did not wanted to destroy it. He wanted support of Republic with him when he would face the the hidden "True Sith Empire".

Revan was Dark Lord of the Sith no doubt but he never truely fell to Dark Side like Malak did.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Possibly others.
And these are?

I don't think that Dooku and Vader surpassed the best of KOTOR and Pre-KOTOR periods. By best I mean Revan, Exar Kun, Nihilus, Sadow, Ragnos, Tulak etc.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Mainly because they were THERE to buy time
They were not there to buy some time. They went there to distract Bastilla but they could not reach her and got killed.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Name a single one that wasn't reliant on technology.
Same case with Sidious!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Too bad. He didn't
Revan had a different purpose. Stop dragging same thing again and again and learn something about Revan's history.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
"Conquer and hold territory." Nope, sorry, according to PoD, he was a BAD PERSON as a Sith Lord
That was Malak's approach. POD showed his Dark Side and not his Light Side.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm sure Palpatine will be glad to put a saber through that dazzling grin of his. And Palpatine could always manipulate people, Dooku could inspire people...so?
And Revan would not counter that? huh?

You sound like a Sidious Fanboy to me actually!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Not according to the game.....you'll have to prove up....
Game gives you choices. Argue with Bioware then!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Only Luke was above Yoda. ROTs novelization acknowloedges him as the strongest to live up until that point
And? I said the same thing.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
As is what's in a few other things
Too bad for you! KOTOR is completely canon as well.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
actually it was a plague, infighting, slave uprising...
You actually don't know proper story of KOTOR.

Star Forge was a ultimate weapon of the Dark Side power. It caused corruption in the Rakatan Super-Empire, which resulted in a devastating Civil War and all other factors are secondary.

This information was mentioned by the Computer of the "Rakatan Temple".

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The Infinite Empire fell due to many, many factors
All other factors are secondary. Star Forge was the ultimate reason.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Would you learn what a ****ing Force Storm IS? It's a tear in the fabric of reality, not 'lightning from the sky.
Whatever it was, it was deadly.

But POD mentions that Revan knew "Force Storm" and Bane learned it from him? right?

Force Storm has no fixed forms!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
stop acting like an arrogant little jackass because it's really getting on my nerves
Because you actually know very little about KOTOR history and thats why it is recommended for you to play KOTOR again and refresh your knowledge.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Him and twenty other people. So?
Good enough!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Gameplay isn't canon. The only thing canon is he turned her back by refusing to fight her after the battle
Show me evidence!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Now you just pissed me off, fanboy:
Count Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, han Solo, Ulic Qel-Droma, Etain...
Good! but Han was not!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wow, and it became an Empire! Therefore, the Republic was gone! And last I checked, Sion didn't accomplish a thing on his own. Palpatine did what it took the combined efforts of Revan, Malak, Sion and Nihilus
With FAR less loose ends
Sion planned and master-minded assasinations of many Jedi and almost wiped out the Order.

Palpatine wanted to Conquer the Galaxy. Revan did not!

Sion and Nihilus were different cases but if they were not stopped by Jedi Exile, then imagine what could have happened!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sure, you could. Yoda did
Yoda did not demonstrated all those Force powers that I have mentioned here!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Awwwww, except his allignment is confirmed.
And?

Does it gives you a glimpse of Revan's power!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and Palpatine survived his death. Different circumstances, fanboy
Thanks for reminding me again! Sidious Fanboy!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Grow up, would you?/QUOTE]
I am! but you don't seem to understand that you need to learn more about KOTOR history.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Big deal. They're still canon
Canon stories often conflict with each other.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Why? Dooku was able to tool him when Grievous was bigger, faster and stronger
So you think that Malak could not?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Just watch the cartoon. No, he wasn't
Fine!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You're using game stats in this argument?
Game Stats are based on logic and not just assumptions.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's what we call Ataru and compensation
Do not forget "Force Speed"!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Looks like he didn't use Form V
I don't care!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sure it does. Older people use the fight to keep them going for the fight. Yoda could fight as long as he wanted with the Force, despite his age
What if an OLD Jedi did not had enough knowledge of the force as Yoda had? how would that Jedi keep up?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hey, umm....Supershadow is bullshit. A fraud and a liar

I don't like him either!

But their are cases when apprentices have surpassed their masters!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yet the ROTS novelization asserts it was because of Padme.
Funny that
Anakin was using his anger during that fight. Now! if he lost due to memories of Padme then I pity on him because he chocked her in the first place.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Never once did that godly instakill drain, HM!
He uses Force Drain on Revan and it does noticeable Damage if we forget to use "Force Immunity". Even some states get wasted due to Malak's "Force Drain" so it is better not to give him such a chance and Revan did not.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hm, never saw it used succesfully against someone half decent. Funny, that
Depends upon those Sith who know it but they do if given a chance?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Grievous was stronger and faster. Therefore, your point about Malak no longer applies
But he was defeated by Dooku and pawned by Obi-Wan. Malak is on par with them.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nor are Malak and Revan
Nor are Sidious and Vader!

No one is invincible actually!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wow, pathetic points from a pathetic poster
And you are 100% correct in your entire Judgement despite of so many flaws in your post? right?

Funny enough! I still don't call you pathetic because I am not like you!

Stop this "Well Revan didn't really fall" BS, he most certainly did, however he didn't fall in the conventional sense that he was gradually brought towards the Dark Side or it was out of his hands, he made a choice and his choice was to become a Sith, much like Jacen and he turned to the dark side.

Now Revan may have not been dominated by the Dark Side letting it guide his actions and feelings but he was still a relatively evil bastard, lets not forget that this is the same person who had thousands of men and women slaughtered simply because they weren't blindly loyal to him, this is the same guy who corrupted and broke Jedi after Jedi, this is he same guy who as KOTOR described conquered the outer rim in a brutal fashion. He may have had good intentions starting off but they were soon warped, or as Kreia pointed out that may have been his personality all along and he really was a dick which is even worse.

And Revan most certainly wanted to conquer the Republic for his own, hence his arrogant view that only through HIS government and HIS control could the galaxy survive. If he didn't Im supremely sure the Republic would welcome the help of the man who single handedly saved their asses from the Mandalorians in a threat that is lurking in the unknown regions.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Stop this "Well Revan didn't really fall" BS, he most certainly did, however he didn't fall in the conventional sense that he was gradually brought towards the Dark Side or it was out of his hands, he made a choice and his choice was to become a Sith, much like Jacen and he turned to the dark side.

Now Revan may have not been dominated by the Dark Side letting it guide his actions and feelings but he was still a relatively evil bastard, lets not forget that this is the same person who had thousands of men and women slaughtered simply because they weren't blindly loyal to him, this is the same guy who corrupted and broke Jedi after Jedi, this is he same guy who as KOTOR described conquered the outer rim in a brutal fashion. He may have had good intentions starting off but they were soon warped, or as Kreia pointed out that may have been his personality all along and he really was a dick which is even worse.

And Revan most certainly wanted to conquer the Republic for his own, hence his arrogant view that only through HIS government and HIS control could the galaxy survive. If he didn't Im supremely sure the Republic would welcome the help of the man who single handedly saved their asses from the Mandalorians in a threat that is lurking in the unknown regions.
All Sith are Evil indeed.

No one said here that Revan never fell to Dark Side. What I mentioned was that Revan was not as much corrupted by the Dark Side as Malak was.

Malak as a Sith Lord was more brutal and he destroyed two worlds in KOTOR game as an example. Malak never understood Revan's true purpose.

Revan had great wisdom. He made smart choices, which could often be brutal but his purpose was different from most other Sith Lords.

He did not wanted to conquer the entire Galaxy or else this would be mentioned in KOTOR repeatedly.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
All Sith are Evil indeed.

No one said here that Revan never fell to Dark Side. What I mentioned was that Revan was not as much corrupted by the Dark Side as Malak was.

Malak as a Sith Lord was more brutal and he destroyed two worlds in KOTOR game as an example. Malak never understood Revan's true purpose.

Revan had great wisdom. He made smart choices, which could often be brutal but his purpose was different from most other Sith Lords.

He did not wanted to conquer the entire Galaxy or else this would be mentioned in KOTOR repeatedly.


So what? Your arguing particulars, Revan destroyed thousands of Mandalorian and Republic troops, and hundreds of Jedi, destroyed a planet, and almost inadvertently caused the death of the entire Universe. Revan would leave entire worlds undefended and left to Mandalorian nuclear attacks just to defend anther, Revan was not a nice person. Malak although brutal was still in control of himself and fully aware of what he was doing.

Now, when Malak was possessed by the Star Forge, THAT is when he lost control of his actions and became a tool for the Star Forge, THAT is the ONLY case you could make for Revan avoiding such a fall, because he purposely limited his exposer to the Star Forge.

He made smart choices? So did palpatine, big deal. He wanted the galaxy as his, that is why he would impose an Empire led by himself on a democracy. And all the references in KOTOR your speaking of, try to prove Revan was not trying to DESTROY the Republic completely, HOWEVER he was STILL CONQUERING IT.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well! Bane was a talented individual indeed!

But this technique was used to disguise the existance of Sith Lords. It has nothing to do with enhancement of Force Knowledge.
Read PoD again, K? "The Dark Side is spread too thin!" and the entire system is based on the apprentice growing stronger than the Master, so that the cycle continues


Oh, my. Except apparently the Order still existed, though most of the surviving Jedi died, thanks to the Exile, Bastila, Vima and the like. Here's a hint: When you capitalize on someone else's work when you only have a hundred Jedi to deal with, it's hardly so impressive


Totally irrelevant

This is proof he was still good how? He was a far thinker. That's it

IE: He wanted a fully militarily sound group to defeat his rivals

No, he made a conscious decision to become evil. In PoD, he's talking about true darkness and made a holocron.
Someone who 'never really fell' cannot do that


They likely surpassed a few of them.


Like I said: Buy time


I suggest you shut up. It's not the same thing with Palpatine


Hmmm, maybe because he was a dark and evil person until his memory was gone? He made a ****ing Sith Holocron


Revan would not counter the power of someone stronger, no


And the canon is determined. Argue with LFL


And too bad for you it has to conform to higher levels of canon such as the novelizations


And the plague. And the slave uprisings, and the Sith defeating them....more than one factor and the game even says this

And the NEC says it was due to quite a few factors


Not according to the canon


Nope.

Yes it does, moron. Under its ****ing list in the source books, it gives the EXACT definition

Why don't you just shut up and read a bit?


Ultimate Visual Guide, fanboy. And the game itself

hm, Boba's Mandalorian born commandos certainly respect Han. Funny that


By 'many', you mean 'less than a hundred.' And Nihilus killed most of them

He wanted to conquer the Republic but leave its infrastructure intact. Same thing

Stopped by Thon and Vima Sunrider maybe, who the hell knows.


Nope. but the sourcebooks confirm his knowledge of them


Yes. Revan at the end is light. Yoda at the end is The strongest light sider the galaxy had seen up to that point.
Yoda>Revan. Case closed


Is that your only defense? G-canon>C-canon. Sorry


Never said that. Just defeating your point that Malak's bigger, stronger and more agile

Game Stats are N-canon, sorry.


Which everyone and their mother knows


Because you're an idiot

They wouldn't. Yoda'd destroy them.


That was the entire BASIS of Bane's SYSTEM. Darth Imperious never existed. He was MADE UP by said liar


You miss the whole "You brought her here to kill me!" Speech?


Oooh, gameplay again? Sorry, if it were an instakil, it'd ave killed him, so apparently it's not. Apparently Force Immunity gives you all the defense you need, HM!


Apparently their chances didn't do much


And Grievous is STILL stronger and faster than Malak


Some are less invincible than others


Correct enough.

Honestly, I don't think Revan was your average `POWER, UNLIMITED POWER!` Sith Lord, but more of an `the ends justify the means`. He left planets to be glassed by Mandalorians, which is bad when you consider that they butchered trillion of defenceless men, women and children; but good when one considers that it led to the eventual repulsion of the Mandalorian forces.

I see this coming from Traya, really. Traya was a `the ends justify the means` person. She had noble goals, and Revan had noble goals; but the means they used didn't always present them as being very nice people.

Yeah, kinda like Kopekz.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Honestly, I don't think Revan was your average `POWER, UNLIMITED POWER!` Sith Lord, but more of an `the ends justify the means`. He left planets to be glassed by Mandalorians, which is bad when you consider that they butchered trillion of defenceless men, women and children; but good when one considers that it led to the eventual repulsion of the Mandalorian forces.

I see this coming from Traya, really. Traya was a `the ends justify the means` person. She had noble goals, and Revan had noble goals; but the means they used didn't always present them as being very nice people.

Exactly what I was attempting to say a Machiavellian type Sith is still evil none the less.

Traya acknowledged herself as a potential threat to all that lived. She might've had somewhat noble goals, but she was pretty dang evil about it. Revan was simply one Sith Lord looking to defend his territory and keep it strong, that's all

I say Traya/Malak lose, but Revan kills Sidious, and who knows what happens then

Originally posted by Mr Krieger
I say Traya/Malak lose, but Revan kills Sidious, and who knows what happens then

Vader and Dooku team and kill Revan?

Well if they can kill Malak and Traya before Revan kills Sidious, that will be the deciding factor

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Read PoD again, K? "The Dark Side is spread too thin!" and the entire system is based on the apprentice growing stronger than the Master, so that the cycle continues
You think that Apprentices never grew stronger then their masters in KOTOR or Pre-KOTOR periods?

You are very stupid indeed!

"So the cycle continues" means that same thing continued from past.

You obviously aren't mature enough to understand a few lines!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, my. Except apparently the Order still existed, though most of the surviving Jedi died, thanks to the Exile, Bastila, Vima and the like. Here's a hint: When you capitalize on someone else's work when you only have a hundred Jedi to deal with, it's hardly so impressive
What the hell does Exile, Bastilla and a few others have to do with large number of Jedi being killed by Sion and Nihilus?

Have you totally lost your mind?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Totally irrelevant
How is the achievement of Rebels (by destroying the "Death Star" irrelevant?

Because this event shows the failure of Emperor, so now it is irrelevant to you?

I can sense your baised approach here!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
This is proof he was still good how? He was a far thinker. That's it
You can say the he was very "far-sighted" and smart.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
IE: He wanted a fully militarily sound group to defeat his rivals
He would have realized that how powerful that new threat was so he needed some impressive firepower to ensure victory and Republic was very weak after the great Mandelorian war and was not powerful enough to defeat that threat by itself.

So, thats why he built his own powerful Empire.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, he made a conscious decision to become evil. In PoD, he's talking about true darkness and made a holocron.

Someone who 'never really fell' cannot do that
I never denied that Revan never fell to Dark Side. He became a Dark Lord of the Sith but his intentions and purpose was different from most other Sith Lords.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
They likely surpassed a few of them.
And can you be more specific by mentioning some names, so that I could see that which most powerful Sith Lords of KOTOR and Pre-KOTOR periods were surpassed by Dooku and Vader.

I am sensing "Super-Shadow" BS here!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Like I said: Buy time
Their purpose and mission was to stop Bastilla from using her "Battle Meditation".

They were not their to buy some time for Revan's team.

Stop spouting BS!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I suggest you shut up. It's not the same thing with Palpatine

I suggest that you shut up actually because you continue to throw bullshit comments again and again without even understanding what I am saying.

Palpatine's goal was ultimate domination of the entire Galaxy. Revan's was not.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hmmm, maybe because he was a dark and evil person until his memory was gone? He made a ****ing Sith Holocron
So what???

Many ****ing Sith Lords made their damn Sith Holocrons.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Revan would not counter the power of someone stronger, no
OK! here are some examples of more powerful being defeated by less powerful:

- Dooku was defeated by someone who was less powerful.

- Sidous had his @ss handed to him by Mace, who was less powerful but Anakin saved him.

- Marka Ragnos was defeated by someone who was less powerful.

- Darth Maul was defeated by someone who was less powerful.

Now! speak????

And you think that when "Palpatine will be glad to put a saber through that dazzling grin of Revan's", then Revan will just stand their and smile at him???

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And the canon is determined. Argue with LFL
And yet it is hyperbolic and descriptions of fights in it often contradict with the way those fights happened in the movie.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And too bad for you it has to conform to higher levels of canon such as the novelizations
Thia Game is based on a story that has been approved by Lucas Arts or whatever and all comments and events in it are actually canon and 100% approved.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And the plague. And the slave uprisings, and the Sith defeating them....more than one factor and the game even says this
Star Forge started their downfall.

It corrupted the Rakatan leaders and all of them turned on each other in lust for greater power. Hence the Civil War started and Empire Crumbled.

You have to look at the main thing that started their downfall. All other reasons are secondary.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And the NEC says it was due to quite a few factors
NEC says it generally but it has been properly described and narrated in KOTOR that "Star Forge" started the downfall of the Infinite Empire.

Lucas Arts (a G-canon source) approved these lines in the game before it was launched.

BIOWARE did not made-up this entire story by themselves.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Not according to the canon
KOTOR game is completely canon and was fully reviewed by Lucas Arts before launch.

Point moot.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nope.
OK! fine!

Revan knew "Force Storm" anyways and Bane demonstrated a similar "Force Storm" as well.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes it does, moron. Under its ****ing list in the source books, it gives the EXACT definition
Their are two types of Force Storms:

1 - Force Storm (wormhole)

2 - Force Storm (lightning)

Description of Force Storm (Lightning):

Force Storm was an extremely powerful dark side Force power and represented the pinnacle of the Force's power to manipulate electrons, proving more devastating even than the lethal Force lightning. The users raised their palm upward and through the Force accelerated the movement of airborne electrons, creating an explosion of electricity that the user then directed at all foes in the vicinity. It was used by both the Sith and Jedi with dark side tendencies during the Jedi Civil War. Unlike the weaker Force lightning, Force Storm was not limited to attacking enemies in one direction, as it affected all foes within a certain radius from the user.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Why don't you just shut up and read a bit?
Read what? your BS actually?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ultimate Visual Guide, fanboy. And the game itself
Well! OK!

I believe that Revan did not fight Bastilla but do you think that Bastilla was powerful enough to stop him???

Originally posted by Lightsnake
hm, Boba's Mandalorian born commandos certainly respect Han. Funny that
Good!

But Revan was respected by the ultimate "Mandelore" himself (Who led his forces against the Republic). Even one of his personal followers was a powerful mandelorian "Canderous" who himself became a Mandelore later-on.

Guess what? Revan was most respected by them!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
By 'many', you mean 'less than a hundred.' And Nihilus killed most of them
Does it matters?

He wiped out as many as possible and Jedi Order was in ruins.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He wanted to conquer the Republic but leave its infrastructure intact. Same thing
Well! you have a point here!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Stopped by Thon and Vima Sunrider maybe, who the hell knows.

LOL! Vima Sunrider would defeat Nihilus and Sion! hahahahaha!!!!!!

huh! both Thon and Vima would be crushed by them very easily.

Jedi Exile was lucky because she was "wound in the force".

Continued....

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nope. but the sourcebooks confirm his knowledge of them
Show me a direct link!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes. Revan at the end is light. Yoda at the end is The strongest light sider the galaxy had seen up to that point.
Yoda>Revan. Case closed
Nopes! Revan is on par with Yoda or very close!

His accomplishments prove this!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Is that your only defense? G-canon>C-canon. Sorry
G-canon or C-canon or whatever!

All materials that are considered canon are actually appoved by Lucas before being published or mentioned. Point moot.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Never said that. Just defeating your point that Malak's bigger, stronger and more agile
Then Anakin!

Anakin was not a body-builder or as heavily built as Malak was!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Game Stats are N-canon, sorry.
Game Stats are their to implement some logic in to the game. They have nothing to do with canon but much more to do with "Common Sense" that you seem to lack.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which everyone and their mother knows
But you forgot to acknowledge it in your previous statement and only mentioned "Ataru" and "Compensation". So I had to remind you!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Because you're an idiot
Same as you!

Malak was a very good saber duelist. End of Story!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
They wouldn't. Yoda'd destroy them.
And???

These are you words: "Sure it does. Older people use the fight to keep them going for the fight. Yoda could fight as long as he wanted with the Force, despite his age"

And you tried to tell me before that OLD people are better force users. What a moronic statement this is!

And this thread is not even about Yoda but instead it is about Dooku!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That was the entire BASIS of Bane's SYSTEM. Darth Imperious never existed. He was MADE UP by said liar
OK! my mistake! but who trained Darth Plaguies then?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You miss the whole "You brought her here to kill me!" Speech?
So this statement led to Vader's downfall in the fight???

You surely!!! well! what should I say??? Forget it!!!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oooh, gameplay again? Sorry, if it were an instakil, it'd ave killed him, so apparently it's not. Apparently Force Immunity gives you all the defense you need, HM!
It was an effective "Force Drain" power regardless because Malak leached the Life of his Jedi Captives from it!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Apparently their chances didn't do much
Not my fault then!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Grievous is STILL stronger and faster than Malak
He was stronger and faster then Dooku, Mace and Obi-Wan as well but he could not out-class them because he was not a "Force User".

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Some are less invincible than others
Their is no such thing as "less invincible" or "higher invincible".

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Correct enough.
Sorry! still fundamental flaws in your arguements!

Geez, there is a lot of info on this page..

A correction!

Orginally posted by Lightsnake
Oooh, gameplay again? Sorry, if it were an instakil, it'd ave killed him, so apparently it's not. Apparently Force Immunity gives you all the defense you need, HM!
It was an effective "Force Drain" power regardless because Malak leached the Life of his Jedi Captives from it in a single stroke.

And without "Force Immunity", it caused massive harm! so!

Anakin has no defence against it! anyways!

Some description on "Force Drain":

Force Drain, or sometimes Drain Life, is the dark side equivalent of Force Healing, the difference being that the user drained the target's Force and life reserves to fuel the regenerative process, or to replenish their own strength in the Force. Greater aptitude allowed exceptional drainage speed and the ability to drain multiple people at once. It manifests itself as red lightning.

Darth Malak applied Force Drain upon Jedi captives to heal his wounds during his final confrontation against Revan. Darth Traya was a master of this insidious power and used it to quickly kill her enemies. Darth Nihilus took this ability to such heights that he could feed off entire worlds at a time. Exar Kun took Force Drain to another level by draining the life-force of the whole Massassi species, so that his spirit could seal on Yavin 4 for more than four thousand years.

Emperor Palpatine fed off the inhabitants of his retreat world of Byss collectively with his Dark Side Adepts, although those unfortunate souls were drained slowly, over a long period of time, rather than consuming the whole world at once.

Even Palpatine used it. So it is not a obsolete force power and indeed an effective power!

Why do you keep putting exclamation points at the end of your sentencies! It gets annoying! Very quickly! Try a period!

Originally posted by Escape81
Why do you keep putting exclamation points at the end of your sentencies! It gets annoying! Very quickly! Try a period!
OK, I will use it less frequently then, if it seems annoying.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
OK, I will use it less frequently then, if it seems annoying.

There ya go. I appreciate it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You think that Apprentices never grew stronger then their masters in KOTOR or Pre-KOTOR periods?

You are very stupid indeed!

"So the cycle continues" means that same thing continued from past.

You obviously aren't mature enough to understand a few lines!
You're an idiot, k? The entire Sith cycle until the Brotherhood of Darkness was based on apprentices growing stronger. When the apprentice was strong enough, he'd kill the master. Don't put words into my mouth, troll


Because under a hundred doesn't qualify as a large number in comparison, especially when Nihilus finished off most. And we have at least thirty Jedi who survived the Purge.
god, suddenly they look less impressive!


Unless the Emperor was flying around in his own ship personally participating in the battle, it's irrelevant. He didn't care about the first Death Star. Hell, was he personall present? Nope, it's Tarkin's failure.

You're an idiot. Plain and simple


The Rebellion wasn't a factor at all until the first Death Star. Palpatine only saw it as an amusement

Or because that's what EMPERORS do.


No it wasn't: "Rule and defend my territory." That simple


Only because you posted it. and Dooku and Vader would've shredded Sadow. And Tritos Nal. And Garu. And Kla. And Bo Vanda. Probably others.


Right. Buy time

They were not their to buy some time for Revan's team

Stop spouting BS!
Stop someone in time for Revan to defeat Malak.
Sounds like buying time, moron.


Which is why he was planning to fight other Sith while conquering the galactic Republic.
Moron.


So, you kinda have to be, I dunno....Evil?


No he wasn't
Palpatine: soon I will have a new apprentice. One younger and more powerful

Last I checked, circumstances unknown

Seems Marka isn't so powerful after all

Because he got arrogant

Sure! Irrelevant misdirection

You're the one who brought up his 'charisma' which means jack in a fight. Kthxbai


Blah blah blah. I'm sensing an absence of proof from you.


As are all the events in the books.
Hypocrite much.


And I'm sure the massive plague had nothing to do with it

Right. STARTED


Except the game is C-canon. According to The Holocron database, novelizations are of a higher level than game stories, while game stats are N-canon.
Btw: LA only approves things. They're not 'G-canon' because they're approved. That just makes them part of the canon

Hey, idiot? It's called C-canon. Lower level than the movies and the novelizations.

Prove it! Neither matched the description of 'force storm' described when it was given the exact descrip.
For starters, there's no lightning


Wrong. Revan's 'Force Storm' is just a blast of force lightning with a fancy name that's a game stat move

And this comes from where? Hm?>


The canon database, the books, a bit on logic, too


Doesn't matter what I think. The canon's spoken


That's great. Him and ten others. Ulic was respected by Mandalore the Indomitable, Han and Luke were respected by Boba Fett and Fenn Shysa and Mandalore the Ressurector...

Prove it


Big deal. Only time it was ever totally destroyed was Palpatine.
Fact.


Why not? She was described as one of the greatest Jedi of her age

Same Thon who defeated a Sith powerful enough to turn a world's surface to ash?


I hear this so often and it never gets less amusing.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Continued....


Show me a direct link!
His accomplishments? Wow, Thrawn must be TEH UBER WARRIOR!
Shame, but Yoda's still>Revan


By Lucas? No, it's his company and they're organized in a hierarchy.


G-canon is "George Lucas" canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely.

C-canon is "continuity" canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be; they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters, Salporin, and Action VI Transports.

S-canon is "secondary" canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.

N-canon is "non-canon." What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.

Understand now? Novelizations>: anything other than a movie. ANY day of the week

Meaning nothing


Still N-canon


What's your point?


Sure. Not as good, but good


who said that? Just that they're able to fight as long as they want so long as they use the force to keep their energy going. Like Dooku and Yoda did


Unknown.


No. He was out of his mind with grief and rage over Padme. It's that simple


He outclassed and slaughtered many Jedi knights AND masters, so?


Recognize a figure of speech

Interesting battle. ROTS Sidious and Revan are going to occupy themselves, wreaking hell. Sidious has the advantage in darkside powers. Revan on the otherhand has knowledge in both sides of the force, dark and light, and his understanding in them is significant. He had knowledge of the alternate force storm incarnation ( lightning bolts originating from the sky to kill his enemies) and also loads of Sith technique that Bane feared no Sith Lord should ever use. He defeated an SF empowered Malak at least twice, and was commented as having stronger Jedi powers than Sith powers (which just speaks even more for him). In the end, I see Revan beating the ROTS incarnation of Sidious.

Malak would go after Dooku, and the battle would be a stalemate here. Malak defeated the leader of the Jedi guardians. Canderous even says to Kavar, "I thought you were dead." Dooku was a master of Makashi, and was obviously very skilled in swordplay...He stalemated a weaker Windu, but ultimately won because of his droids interference. They were both described as prodigies in the Jedi order.

Traya would fight against ROTS Vader. I cannot tell who wins, since she cannot use her instantkill. Traya's abilities in the force are immense. She tossed around three war hardened masters without so much as moving.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8lFOfJd8uE

How this translates with a single, stronger dark Jedi, I can't say.
Her position as Jedi librarian offered her a larger database to study with, and consequently a broader depth of knowledge in the force. Compounded with Malachor 5, I see her having an advantage over Ani in an all out force battle.
Either way, the battle will be close. If Vader were to engage her in a lightsaber, the outcome is partially an unkown, since we know next to nothing about Traya in the dueling department. However it is more likely he would win. In force powers, Traya would definately win.


In either case, I see Revan helping either Malak or Traya defeating their adversary. Afterwards, the trio gangs up on the last opponent.

Yes, Zephiel, we know the KOTOR people always win with you

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
inadvertently caused the death of the entire Universe.

Um... what? I'm a bit confused as to where this happened.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6797/sign7bz.png

Stalemate? I hardly think so. Count Dooku is described as one of the very best that the Jedi Order ever had. Where was Malak's legendary status heralded? I don't see Malak being superior to Dooku in swordplay or in Force skills. I see him being notably inferior, and since Dooku is the ultimate master of Makashi - as well as a very powerful Force user - I see him thrashing Malak.



I agree that Traya will have the advantage in Force powers. But we saw what happened with Dooku. Dooku has been known to use the Force during lightsaber duels - and he switches often. But, when Anakin got into a frenzy, he was all over Dooku to the point that Tyranus was unable to open up for a Force attack.

Traya will have to use the Force before Anakin gets near her. I personally don't see that happening. Anakin's strength, agility, swordsmanship, and raw power likely exceeds hers by a mile and a half. I see him overwhelming Traya.



I see Dooku and Anakin helping Sidious WTFpwn Revan.

Thanks Escape81 (for your appreciation)

Lightsnake, you are funny but still a fine debator!

My advice: Try to be more civil.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You're an idiot, k? The entire Sith cycle until the Brotherhood of Darkness was based on apprentices growing stronger. When the apprentice was strong enough, he'd kill the master. Don't put words into my mouth, troll
Vader had the potential to surpass Sidious in power.

Hence Sidious tells Yoda "he will become more powerful then either of us" in ROTS.

Guess what? this thing was possible even in PT era so it did not stopped at "Brotherhood of Darkness".

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Because under a hundred doesn't qualify as a large number in comparison, especially when Nihilus finished off most.

god, suddenly they look less impressive!
Wow! killing almost a 100 Jedi Knights and Masters is suddenly not impressive. Simply! Wow!

How many Sith Lords has Yoda killed? (Not even one despite his immense power)

So, Sion accomplished much more!

Some details of Darth Sion:

Sion was a uniquely powerful individual, having learned the ways of pain in the Trayus Academy on Malachor. Torturing and killing others enhanced his strength in the Force, and his ability to feed on his own pain and hatred made him immortal. A master with a lightsaber and perhaps the most infamous Sith assassin of the era, Sion is known to be responsible for the death of countless Jedi during the shadow war waged by himself and Lord Nihilus.

Source: Wikipedia

And word "countless" has been used. Not "less then 100" that you have made-up!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And we have at least thirty Jedi who survived the Purge.
And many among them also fell soon in KOTOR II.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Unless the Emperor was flying around in his own ship personally participating in the battle, it's irrelevant. He didn't care about the first Death Star. Hell, was he personall present? Nope, it's Tarkin's failure.
That was not his duty. He had some capable generals at his command to do such things and those generals failed.

Also, how can you say that Emperor did not cared about loss of first "Death Star" weapon? Note that SW-ANH movie was made in late 70's and Emperor was not even planned by Lucas during that time.]

Emperor was introduced in SW-ESB. But from both AOTC and ROTJ movies, we can conclude that Emperor was interested in operations of "Death Star" and thus he even ordered construction of a second "Death Star" after the destruction of the first one as seen in ROTJ.

So, don't assume things just by yourself.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You're an idiot. Plain and simple
These kinds of words will not help you in your debate.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The Rebellion wasn't a factor at all until the first Death Star. Palpatine only saw it as an amusement
Palpatine was an idiot then because he under-estimated the resolve of the Rebellion.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Or because that's what EMPERORS do.
Well! I agree!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No it wasn't: "Rule and defend my territory." That simple
Revan built his Empire to fight an enemy that was purhaps more dangerous then Mandeloran Armies.

But Sidious built his Empire to rule the entire Galaxy with it.

Two different purposes are clear here!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Only because you posted it. and Dooku and Vader would've shredded Sadow. And Tritos Nal. And Garu. And Kla. And Bo Vanda. Probably others.
Now you make some sense!

OK! they surpassed "Sadow" but some will possibly disagree with you on this (not me though!)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Right. Buy time
Those Jedi Knights were ordered by the Jedi Council to stop Bastilla from using her Battle Meditation.

So I will repeat my words that they were not their to buy some time for Revan's team.

Revan's purpose was to stop Malak and possibly Bastilla (in-case other Jedi Knights fail)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Stop someone in time for Revan to defeat Malak.

Sounds like buying time, moron.
You call it as "buying time" but it is not like that. Those Jedi Knights were on a mission.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which is why he was planning to fight other Sith while conquering the galactic Republic.
Moron.
What other Sith, Sidious was planning to fight while conquering the Galactic Republic?

And if you are implying Revan here then he wanted support from Republic, but he knew that Jedi Council will not agree with him. So, he had no other choice but to take-over the Republic by force (if necessary).

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So, you kinda have to be, I dunno....Evil?
Well! Revan was Evil but not as much as others were!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No he wasn't
Dooku was not more poweful then Anakin? Well! this is a separate debate.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Palpatine: soon I will have a new apprentice. One younger and more powerful
Palpatine knew about Anakin's great potential so that's why he referred to him as more powerful.

Darth Tyranus was still more powerful then Anakin in ROTS. But Anakin was better then him in Saber Skills.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Last I checked, circumstances unknown
You are being ignorant here!

Mace defeated Sidious during fight in his office but sadly, Anakin saved his @ss. This happened in ROTS and thus circumstances our no unknown.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Seems Marka isn't so powerful after all
You under-estimate him now!

His case shows that even most powerful can be defeated by less powerful so this mentality that "most powerful always prevails" is wrong.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Because he got arrogant
Unfortunately, many Sith Lords suffer from the issue of "arrogance" and this includes ROTS Vader.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sure! Irrelevant misdirection
You have done the same now!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You're the one who brought up his 'charisma' which means jack in a fight. Kthxbai
Well! I mentioned it regarding his ability to inspire people to join or help him.

You took it to a new stupid level.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Blah blah blah. I'm sensing an absence of proof from you.
OK! you take this one but still I have some trouble accepting everything that has been said in it because the movie shows a different view.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
As are all the events in the books.
Hypocrite much.
I agree that all the events of the ROTS movie have been described in its Novelization but the way they are expressed seem little confusing because after watching the movie, you get a different picture of some events.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And I'm sure the massive plague had nothing to do with it
Plague has played its role but very late. Most of the damage was done by the massive Civil War that was inspired by the Star Forge.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Right. STARTED
So, it was the main reason then!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except the game is C-canon. According to The Holocron database, novelizations are of a higher level than game stories, while game stats are N-canon.
Btw: LA only approves things. They're not 'G-canon' because they're approved. That just makes them part of the canon
KOTOR Novel is not far away.

And once things become part of Canon, they should be given some merit.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hey, idiot? It's called C-canon. Lower level than the movies and the novelizations.
OK! but KOTOR Novels are not far away.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove it! Neither matched the description of 'force storm' described when it was given the exact descrip.
For starters, there's no lightning
This new form of "Force Storm" has been invented late but it has now become a part of EU.

And if this power is not "Force Storm" then Bane never demonstrated a so called real "Force Storm" as well.

But since this new power has been mentioned as "Force Storm" in POD Novel so your points are moot.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wrong. Revan's 'Force Storm' is just a blast of force lightning with a fancy name that's a game stat move
And it is still much more deadly and effective force power then normal "Force Lightning" and is on much bigger scale.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And this comes from where? Hm?>
Try wikipedia!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The canon database, the books, a bit on logic, too
Canon database has not revealed much about events of KOTOR yet.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Doesn't matter what I think. The canon's spoken
Well! you did not answered my actual question yet?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's great. Him and ten others. Ulic was respected by Mandalore the Indomitable, Han and Luke were respected by Boba Fett and Fenn Shysa and Mandalore the Ressurector...
Fine! and same Boba fett tried to kill them as well.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove it
A (soon-to-be) Mandelore even joined him and aided him in his fight against the Sith Empire. He did this all just due to immense respect.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Big deal. Only time it was ever totally destroyed was Palpatine.
Fact.
"Great Jedi Purge" event was no less devastating.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Why not? She was described as one of the greatest Jedi of her age
What chance did she had against the Super Drain of Nihilus?

And Sion was also no push-over as he was considered to be immortal.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Same Thon who defeated a Sith powerful enough to turn a world's surface to ash?
Same questions for Thon as well!!!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I hear this so often and it never gets less amusing.
It is canon now!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanks Escape81 (for your appreciation)

Lightsnake, you are funny but still a good debator!

My advice: Try to be more civil.
My advice: Take your own


When you make all the Sith equal, that's exactly what it does. why do you think Bane was so angry? The Order stagnated. Of Anakin ahs the potential, however, not after Mustafar


They didn't kill a hundred. Nihilus killed the ones on Katarr, which was anywhere from liike....ten to thirty, Sion's assassins killed some and the rest reformed the Order.

Several, actually. Possibly Bane, if the young Yoda book idea is pitched

How many Dark Jedi has Yoda killed?
To quote: 'Legions."

There goes that credibility...

To quote Traya: "By the end of the Jedi Civil War, barely a hundred Jedi remained.
Btw, Wiki isn't a good source. For all I know, you just wrote that in!


By many, you mean 'four.'


And Revan was personally commanding and lost personally. So?

Because things happen later to match with earlier continuity?

I think the EU has the outstanding ability to base books in different times...


Last I checked, his apprentice almost broke the Rebellion in the second movie


what was Revan gonna do after he beat the True Sith Empire? Happily surrender? No, he was going to rule as a tyrant overlord.

i don't really care. Sadow was pitiful


Which would've bought time for Revan to finish Malak...

Exactly. They were there to back up Revan and buy him time


To stop Bastila and thus BUY TIME for Revan to defeat Malak


No, revan meant to CONQUER the Republic, but keep it intact and use it to fight his rivals. That simple


He kept Malak in power after he vaporized Telos, he murdered Senators...


IN THE MOVIE: "I will have an apprentice younger and {I]More powerful


No, he was NOT. Palpatine ****ING SAYS HE'S NOT.


To quote the Ultimate Visual guide: Too late does Mace ralize his opponent's greatest weapon is Anakin Skywalker
Movie Novelization: Palpatine's shatterpoint: He trusts Anakin Skywalker.
If Palp wasn't expecting Anakin, he'd have killed Mace


Sadly, that's how it works in the debate


revan, too, apparently


That's great. Doesn't help him here

That's great


Confusing or no: Still canon


There was still the slave uprising, the Sith Defeat....


One of them.


There won't be a novelization of KOTOR. Books set in the time period, but that's it


Proof?

It hasn't. It's a game stat name that's overridden by the definition of a REAL Force Storm, which was Palpatine's.
And if fancy lightning is a Force Storm, Palpatine uses one in Empire issue 4.

Pretty much

Where exactly? It was just called 'heat and fire.'


So what? A Desert Eagle packs more punch than a beretta but they're both handguns and use bullets


Actual source, please


Repeat: Canon's spoken

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Fine! and same Boba fett tried to kill them as well.


A (soon-to-be) Mandelore even joined him and aided him in his fight against the Sith Empire. He did this all just due to immense respect.

And Mandalore the Ultimate wasn't trying to kill revan? Mandalore the Indomitable didn't try to kill Ulic?


Less devastating than Palpatine's


Let's cut Sion into pieces and see how immortal he is.
And how about you blow up Nihilus's ship? A proton torpedo'd work


How'd he survive the massive blast that wiped out all life on a planet?

Prove up

Originally posted by Lightsnake
His accomplishments? Wow, Thrawn must be TEH UBER WARRIOR!
Shame, but Yoda's still>Revan
Thrawn is irrelevant here!

Yes! Yoda is greater then all and yet he has accomplished nothing on the scale that Revan had in his time.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
By Lucas? No, it's his company and they're organized in a hierarchy.
Lucas Arts is also part of his company? no?

Originally posted by Lightsnake

G-canon is "George Lucas" canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely.

C-canon is "continuity" canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be; they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters, Salporin, and Action VI Transports.

S-canon is "secondary" canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.

N-canon is "non-canon." What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.
Good information! I appreciate this!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Understand now? Novelizations>: anything other than a movie. ANY day of the week
And ROTS movie shows a different picture of fights that has been expressed in hyperbolic fashion in its novelization so Movie is greater Canon then it.

And my points are based on what I have observed in the ROTS movie and not on its novelization.

Understand now?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Meaning nothing
It means something! yes indeed!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Still N-canon
Why do you put this canon shit everywhere?

Can't you use "common sense"?

LOGIC implies that "a person who is physically stronger then you, stands better chance at winning a fight against you", unless you hold a major advantage over such an opponent that he/she is vulnerable against.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
What's your point?
My point was that you credited Yoda's fighting ability only to "Ataru" and "Compensation" and yet he clearly demonstrated "Force Speed" during his fights, which enhanced his effectiveness.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sure. Not as good, but good
It is good indeed but you under-estimate his fighting potential!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
who said that? Just that they're able to fight as long as they want so long as they use the force to keep their energy going. Like Dooku and Yoda did
Well! Yoda was just one!

Dooku failed after all against a much younger and determined and angered opponent.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Unknown.
Fine!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No. He was out of his mind with grief and rage over Padme. It's that simple
But he was very determined to kill Obi-Wan and he also looked over-confident at the end of his fight when he told Obi-Wan that "I have learned some new powers" and Obi-Wan adviced him not to try those powers.

So, my previous points remain!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He outclassed and slaughtered many Jedi knights AND masters, so?
And names of these are?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Recognize a figure of speech
I corrected your grammer mistake actually.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Mandalore the Ultimate wasn't trying to kill revan? Mandalore the Indomitable didn't try to kill Ulic?
I agree! but one of the commanders of "Mandelore - The Ultimate" actually joined Revan to help him in his struggle against the mighty Sith Empire, simply due to immense respect for Revan.

And this is a note-worthy achievement, which was accomplished by just due to being respected.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Less devastating than Palpatine's
OK! fine!

But you cannot say that Jedi Order was only wiped out by only Palpatine in its 25,000 years of history.

Because the "Great Jedi Purge" event also resulted in the destruction of the Jedi Order.

So, actually it happened TWICE.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Let's cut Sion into pieces and see how immortal he is.
And how about you blow up Nihilus's ship? A proton torpedo'd work
And you forgot that they could sense the presence of enemies too and would do something as well.

Nihilus, especially was known to turn people or any other living beings in to his slaves just by his words that he could telekinetically narrate to an entire world from the deck of his ship.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
How'd he survive the massive blast that wiped out all life on a planet?
Depends upon the situation.

Still, Nihilus will come out as a TOP DOG vs him in a straight fight!

And Sion was also an excellent Duelist.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove up
Story of KOTOR II was also approved by Lucas Arts so it is now C-Canon.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
My advice: Take your own
I have!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
When you make all the Sith equal, that's exactly what it does. why do you think Bane was so angry? The Order stagnated. Of Anakin ahs the potential, however, not after Mustafar
But Anakin indeed had that potential but he lost it due to his stupidity.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
They didn't kill a hundred. Nihilus killed the ones on Katarr, which was anywhere from liike....ten to thirty, Sion's assassins killed some and the rest reformed the Order.
"The Shadow War" waged by Nihilus and Sion was not fully shown in KOTOR II. The events of KOTOR II actually took place after that Shadow War in which they killed thousands of Jedi.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Several, actually. Possibly Bane, if the young Yoda book idea is pitched
But not on the level of Nihilus and Sion. They wiped out the entire Jedi Order.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
How many Dark Jedi has Yoda killed?
To quote: 'Legions."
OK! but my above points still stand.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
There goes that credibility...
Wikipedia actually narrates all the information that is part of both C-Canon and G-Canon, so it is not a bad source to rely upon.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
To quote Traya: "By the end of the Jedi Civil War, barely a hundred Jedi remained.
Btw, Wiki isn't a good source. For all I know, you just wrote that in!
Once again! Wiki contains massive information that is now part of both C-Canon and G-Canon and thus it has some credibility.

The main problem is that information on "Star Wars: Databank" is not updated soon enough.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
By many, you mean 'four.'
As shown in game, but more die as well.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Revan was personally commanding and lost personally. So?
He lost due to betrayal. Otherwise! he was unstoppable.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Because things happen later to match with earlier continuity?
Well! Lucas had to make up a story after introducing the Emperor in SW-ESB.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I think the EU has the outstanding ability to base books in different times...
I agree!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Last I checked, his apprentice almost broke the Rebellion in the second movie
It was impressive indeed.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
what was Revan gonna do after he beat the True Sith Empire? Happily surrender? No, he was going to rule as a tyrant overlord.
LOL!

You have a point here though!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
i don't really care. Sadow was pitiful
Hmm!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which would've bought time for Revan to finish Malak...
Fine from one perspective but Revan would have succeeded without their help and he actually did.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Exactly. They were there to back up Revan and buy him time
Revan did not needed their help anyways!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
To stop Bastila and thus BUY TIME for Revan to defeat Malak
Like I mentioned before, Revan was not depending upon them.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, revan meant to CONQUER the Republic, but keep it intact and use it to fight his rivals. That simple
Fine! but you said the same thing that I mentioned in a different way!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He kept Malak in power after he vaporized Telos, he murdered Senators...
Malak was the best choice he (Revan) had by that time as his apprentice.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
IN THE MOVIE: "I will have an apprentice younger and {I]More powerful
Dooku > ROTS Anakin in Force knowledge.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, he was NOT. Palpatine ****ING SAYS HE'S NOT.
Palpatine was a manipulator and he wanted a young apprentice and Anakin was good choice.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
To quote the Ultimate Visual guide: Too late does Mace ralize his opponent's greatest weapon is Anakin Skywalker
Movie Novelization: Palpatine's shatterpoint: He trusts Anakin Skywalker.
If Palp wasn't expecting Anakin, he'd have killed Mace
Hmm! a possibility but things looked pretty bad for Sidous though.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sadly, that's how it works in the debate
Not a perfect way to determine fights, then!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
revan, too, apparently
But he was very smart and intelligent and knew how to control his emotions.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's great. Doesn't help him here
I mentioned that on the case of Bastilla.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's great
Welcome!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Confusing or no: Still canon
Movie is higher cannon for me!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
There was still the slave uprising, the Sith Defeat....
Yes! but these were secondary reasons. The primary reasons were corruption casued by Star Forge and the devastating Civil War due to it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
One of them.
Indeed! but the most noticeable one!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
There won't be a novelization of KOTOR. Books set in the time period, but that's it
How do you know this?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Proof?
I have heard rumours only but rumours often become true.

Like it is rumoured that KOTOR III is under development but we are not sure on this.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It hasn't. It's a game stat name that's overridden by the definition of a REAL Force Storm, which was Palpatine's.
And if fancy lightning is a Force Storm, Palpatine uses one in Empire issue 4.
It is C-Canon now!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Pretty much
G-Canon though!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Where exactly? It was just called 'heat and fire.'
It is mentioned.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So what? A Desert Eagle packs more punch than a beretta but they're both handguns and use bullets
But Desert Eagle is more deadly.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Actual source, please
Regarding Force Storm (Lightning)!

LINK: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Storm_%28lightning%29

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Repeat: Canon's spoken
I am not talking about Canon here!

My question was that do you believe that Bastilla was powerful enought to stop Revan?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thrawn is irrelevant here!

Yes! Yoda is greater then all and yet he has accomplished nothing on the scale that Revan had in his time.
Y'know, in 900 years, you can accomplish plenty. Especially as most of Yoda's life is mystery

Like I said: LFL organizes canon into a hierarchy. being approved qualifies you to be published, but unless you're a movie, or a direct adaptation of the movie, you're in the C-canon variet
Did you know Lucas originally created Darth Bane? It was in the TPM novelization according to Terry Brooks


Yep, movies>All. however, just because it seems more flowery doesn't disqualify it

The thing is: If the ROTS novelization lays down a fact, then it goes. And it's higher in canonity than any game


But, once again: We have examples of this not being the case- the people who defeated Grievous, Revan and Malak...
Are you familiar with the comic, Lucifer? A master swordsman effortlessly defeats a much stronger, faster opponent in swordplay, saying that being quicker and stronger is not enough to win a swordfight.
You need skill and Dooku's spent years compensating for not being a physically imposing man.

No, no. Compensation means he needs to make up for his size and reach and Ataru allows him to do this. The acrobatic form


Putting him lower than Dooku is hardly that bad


who was stronger than he was. Dooku stopped fighting because his hands were chopped off


Huh? Flipping over someone isn't a power. Obi-wan didn't want anakin to go after him so Obi-wan didn't have to kill him....

A LOT....He defeated-but didn't kill- K'Kruhk, killed Master Tchooka Doon was sliced in half by Grievous, He killed Master B'Dard, Soon Baytes, Adi Gallia, PAblo Jill, Jmmar.....lots others

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I agree! but one of the commanders of "Mandelore - The Ultimate" actually joined Revan to help him in his struggle against the mighty Sith Empire, simply due to immense respect for Revan.

And this is a note-worthy achievement, which was accomplished by just due to being respected.
Ulic Qel-Droma got Mandalore the Indomitable to fight for him, Luke got Fenn Shysa and his Mandos to fight for him, Boba Fetts Mandos aided Han against the Yuuzhan Vong...


That's EXACTLY what it said in the New Essential Chronology....which came out after KOTOR II

It resulted in a damaged, but still living Order

Didn't work on the Exile or his companions


Unless Thon can counter Force drain....and Thon's no push over

Indeed. Never said otherwise


NO! LISTEN to me! By the end of KOTOR 1 there aren't any more than 100 Jedi left with the damaged Order. Many of them die on Katar and there are quite a few who survive and later reform to rebuild the shattered order accordign to the TnEC, there aren't even thousands of Jedi left to kill! KREIA SAYS THAT HERSELF IN KOTOR II


For the last time: They did not. They and all their efforts killed less than the hundred Jedi still remaining. And Bane is easily to Sion's level at least


That's because they got it from the Holocron creator, Leland Chee's Blog


Look: We know 100 Jedi remained as of the end of KOTOR 1....a lot die on Katarr...Atris, the Exile, Revan, Kreia, Vima, Thon, Sylvar, Tott Doneeta, Nomi, Jolee, Bastila, Vandar, Zhar, Vrook, Kavar, Zez, Lonna....those're some of them
the Four Council Members died to KReia. Atris was redeemed....many of the above likely survived...Sion and Nihilus could not have killed thousands.


which's why he was cornered on his boarded ship...


Not whenyou want to keep the Republic intact and Malak is blasting planets...


But not power


Palpatine is not a boy-hungry pedophile. he wants the stronger apprentice.


Would Anakin have helped him if he were ripping Mace apart, cackling manically?


SW.com has announced there'll be books in the KOTOR time period and there's a KOTOR era comic. But not a KOTOR novelization


It isn't. It's not the same as a REAL force storm that tears apart space.

One is a name for a powerful blast of lightning.

One is a giant hyperspace wormhole that can devour fleets

That'd be because you're a complete KOTOR fanboy and nobody can ever surpass the KOTOR team, though you've been argued into the ground on it.

@ zephiel:



I'd say the more likely choice for what Escape was basing his statements on - which would be what we've seen demonstrated from each of the two combatants, and how much more is known on what Count Dooku has done (opponents, descriptions, etc.). Of the two, Malak and Dooku, Dooku shows more signs of superiority.

Experience, while still important, is hardly something to base a decision on, especially when dealing with powerful opponents, who are considered by some to be "on par". Escape is already aware of this by his arguing that Anakin > Tyranus in lightsaber combat. So, I doubt he was implying that experience is the end all, be all solution to determining the victor.



Skeptical of what exactly? Count Dooku's superiority? Really, Malak's skill with a blade has not been shown to be on par with that of Count Dooku's, from what we know. It's the "don't know" that puts a major hinder in the argument for Malak being on equal footing with Count Dooku in terms of lightsaber combat (or being able to overcome him rather). He's better than the Jedi of Old from his respective era, alright. How good are the Jedi of Old? I've yet to see any relevant quote to Kavar's dueling power, much less the majority of the Old Republic during Revan's time.

Just to note: the "Count Superman" moniker is pretty asinine. It's definitely not appropriate, relevant, or even implied. It's like me calling anointing Malak as "The Jawless Wonder", even though that is somewhat appropriate, it's nevertheless irrelevant and seemingly demeaning.



Your point? I would have extreme doubts that Escape made his posts about Tyranus and Malak based on pure experience. Probably from deducing from what we know, as I've already relayed. Darth Malak's displays of dueling prowess have really nothing strong supporting them that I've seen.

Of course, if there's a quote, feat, or something that prove Kavar - or anyone for that matter - could match Tyranus, then I'd probably agree that Malak would rival Tyranus.



I'd like to question the meaning behind this statement. What do you mean by "in battle"? If you mean in war, then you are incorrect on the majority part, unless by some twist of fate, Darth Malak is only thirteen years old (z0mg).

His actual war experience is only limited to around seven years at most. If you recall, the Jedi didn't get involved in the Mandalorian Wars until later, and after Revan and Malak defied the Council to join - it was only like, three years until the war's end.

As for his life prior to the Mandalorian Wars, where has it been stated that he's even left the Jedi Temple? As my KotOR knowledge is limited and I only vaguely remember my play through, I don't recall him said to have done anything that isn't inclusive of a normal Jedi Knight's duty (most likely a mission here or there, etc. or maybe not).



He also got his jaw lopped off by a Jedi in a lightsaber duel, and this was after he became a Sith Lord.



Well, despite the fact that "one of the best of the era" is mainly an unknown factor your dealing with (as I have yet to see any comparisons drawn on Old Republic Jedi to anyone familiar in later eras in terms of lightsaber combat, nor any displays of real power against foe's that aren't unknown), it's what we've seen displayed, and what we know of Count Dooku's opponents.

What actually correlates into Malak being anywhere near Count Dooku's level of dueling, if I may ask? We know Count Dooku is an adept and exceptional duelist, consummate even. What of Malak? Where would his level of lightsaber skill be placed in comparison to those of the Prequel Trilogy era? If you dare say "Count Dooku", I'd like to know why. Simply because he's better than the Jedi Order of Old (and still got his jaw removed despite this) doesn't mean he's anywhere near the level of Count Dooku. The question proposed is: how good of duelists are the top dogs of the OR to the PT?

Now, in the singular sense, how strong is Kavar again (quotes, feats, anything)? Anywhere near the level of someone even like say, Sora Bulq?

As for your statements on Force skills, you'd have to take into consideration that, among other things, Malak was empowered by the Star Forge, was he not? Which from what I've gathered, is said to apparently boost your powers and/or give you new ones (or something to that effect).

Some of his powers may have a slightly less powerful feel to them without the amplification of the Star Forge aiding Malak. And while you could make the argument that he already had these powers (lightning, etc.), I've yet to see anything specify what it gives - so, we don't know. Therefore, making a conclusion that Malak is as able a Force user as we've seen demonstrated throughout KotOR wouldn't be quite correct.

Of course, if another source would state the opposite of my response regarding the Star Forge - I'd gladly concede. Things regarding KotOR are hardly my strong point of debating, as I despise the games hence I stray from many things that stem from it. I'm just basing an argument off of what I've gathered from different sources on KotOR.

As far as a lightsaber duel goes, I can see Count Dooku winning, albeit with resistance. And I'd say the same outcome would be applied to fit an all out duel.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Y'know, in 900 years, you can accomplish plenty. Especially as most of Yoda's life is mystery
Well! he had hundred's of years to make him powerful enough to achieve plenty.

But still Yoda has not accomplished something on the scale of Revan and Sidious, who accomplished much more in much shorter time period.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Like I said: LFL organizes canon into a hierarchy. being approved qualifies you to be published, but unless you're a movie, or a direct adaptation of the movie, you're in the C-canon variet
Did you know Lucas originally created Darth Bane? It was in the TPM novelization according to Terry Brooks
George Lucas is a busy man and so he cannot explain the entire Star Wars Saga himself. So, he gave other people the opportunity and green-light to expand the Star Wars Saga beyond his movies and thus "Expanded Universe" was born. Though! he himself has contributed in EU but not as much.

So, whatever work of EU that is approved by him, holds credibility.

KOTOR story has been mostly defined through games but its story holds credibility due to approval by GL. And "Ranking" becomes irrelevant here because if you are taking "ranking of canon material" in to account in comparisons then it becomes illogical to even compare the characters of KOTOR era with PT era.

And I know that Darth Bane was GL's idea.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yep, movies>All. however, just because it seems more flowery doesn't disqualify it
True! but still since greater canon material is available to define the fights of ROTS then its novelization, so I will use that greater canon material as a base for arguements and not the lesser canon material.

KOTOR's case is different and ranking becomes irrelevant in its case because we don't have its higher canon material to use it as a base for arguements so what is mentioned in its games, has to be considered.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The thing is: If the ROTS novelization lays down a fact, then it goes. And it's higher in canonity than any game
Note my above points.

The cases of KOTOR and Movies are different.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
But, once again: We have examples of this not being the case- the people who defeated Grievous, Revan and Malak...
Are you familiar with the comic, Lucifer? A master swordsman effortlessly defeats a much stronger, faster opponent in swordplay, saying that being quicker and stronger is not enough to win a swordfight.
You need skill and Dooku's spent years compensating for not being a physically imposing man.
We actually don't know that Revan has been defeated by any Jedi or Sith yet. But Malak was defeated by Revan, and Revan was more powerful then Malak.

Grevious was defeated by Obi-Wan because Obi-Wan was more experienced in melee combat then Grevious and defeated him even in a Saber Duel as he easily chopped off two of his arms during early stages of the fight.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You need skill and Dooku's spent years compensating for not being a physically imposing man.
But Dooku's skills went in to dust when he faced Anakin for the second time. Malak has both skills and great strength, so he obviously holds greater advantage.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, no. Compensation means he needs to make up for his size and reach and Ataru allows him to do this. The acrobatic form
Fine! but "Force Speed" cannot be ignored because Yoda uses it to dodge attacks and strike opponents faster.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Putting him lower than Dooku is hardly that bad
Malak cannot be placed below Dooku because of obvious reasons that have been mentioned about him. Putting him on par with Dooku makes more sense to me.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
who was stronger than he was. Dooku stopped fighting because his hands were chopped off
You can say that Anakin became better duelist then him and used a Saber Form that Dooku could not effectively counter. And this does not means that Anakin was more powerful.

But you are right that Anakin was physically stronger then Dooku.

The term "Powerful" = Knowledge of the Force + Saber Skills + Experience + Physical advantages.

Now! lets analyze this:

Anakin:

1) Physical advantages over Dooku: 2 at-least

- Young Age.
- More Strength.

2) Knowledge of the Force: Less then Dooku.

3) Saber Skills: Better then Dooku. Practised "Djem", which out-smarted Makashi.

4) Experience: Less then Dooku.

Now Anakin scores 2 points.

Dooku:

1) Physical advantages over Anakin: None

2) Knowledge of the Force: Much higher then Anakin.

3) Saber Skills: Good! but less then Anakin.

4) Experience: Much Greater then Anakin.

Now Dooku also scores 2 points.

So, Anakin is not more powerful then Dooku.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Huh? Flipping over someone isn't a power. Obi-wan didn't want anakin to go after him so Obi-wan didn't have to kill him....
Well! Anakin tried to use one of his new powers but got chopped off in the process.

Though! you are right that Obi-Wan did not wanted to kill him but he had no other choice left and hence he said in the start of the fight that "Then I should do! What I must."

Originally posted by Lightsnake
A LOT....He defeated-but didn't kill- K'Kruhk, killed Master Tchooka Doon was sliced in half by Grievous, He killed Master B'Dard, Soon Baytes, Adi Gallia, PAblo Jill, Jmmar.....lots others
Hmm!

But he lost against those who were more powerful then the ones he had killed.

And Malak is definately much more powerful then these Jedi, you mentioned above.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ulic Qel-Droma got Mandalore the Indomitable to fight for him, Luke got Fenn Shysa and his Mandos to fight for him, Boba Fetts Mandos aided Han against the Yuuzhan Vong...
Good enough!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's EXACTLY what it said in the New Essential Chronology....which came out after KOTOR II
OK!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It resulted in a damaged, but still living Order
Order stopped functioning after "The Shadow War", until Sion and Nihilus were defeated.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Didn't work on the Exile or his companions
Exile survived because she was "wound in the force", which means that she could live even without force.

But Nihilus Drain technique would work on "Force Users", so that he could drain life from them by draining their "Force midichlorians" and Thon and Vima are pure "Force Users".

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Unless Thon can counter Force drain....and Thon's no push over
Their is no evidence that shows that Thon can counter Force Drain.

Revan can counter it to some extent as he fought against Malak, who knew this power and used it on him as well.

But Nihilus Force Drain is something that should be immensly feared.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Indeed. Never said otherwise
So! it holds credibility as well.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
NO! LISTEN to me! By the end of KOTOR 1 there aren't any more than 100 Jedi left with the damaged Order. Many of them die on Katar and there are quite a few who survive and later reform to rebuild the shattered order accordign to the TnEC, there aren't even thousands of Jedi left to kill! KREIA SAYS THAT HERSELF IN KOTOR II
Fine!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
For the last time: They did not. They and all their efforts killed less than the hundred Jedi still remaining. And Bane is easily to Sion's level at least
OK!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's because they got it from the Holocron creator, Leland Chee's Blog

So, that material becomes fully credible then. And Wikipedia remains as a reliable source.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Look: We know 100 Jedi remained as of the end of KOTOR 1....a lot die on Katarr...Atris, the Exile, Revan, Kreia, Vima, Thon, Sylvar, Tott Doneeta, Nomi, Jolee, Bastila, Vandar, Zhar, Vrook, Kavar, Zez, Lonna....those're some of them
the Four Council Members died to KReia. Atris was redeemed....many of the above likely survived...Sion and Nihilus could not have killed thousands.
Exile, Revan and Bastilla survived. Jolee's fate is unknown yet.

Others died though!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
which's why he was cornered on his boarded ship...
He was cornered but that does not means that he was defeated. And Malak reveals in KOTOR that he helped those Jedi trap Revan.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Not whenyou want to keep the Republic intact and Malak is blasting planets...
Malak is blamed for those actions and not Revan. Malak actually destroyed many Worlds after becoming "Dark Lord of the Sith", so its not Revan's fault.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
But not power
Read my above analysis!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Palpatine is not a boy-hungry pedophile. he wants the stronger apprentice.
Yeah true! but he was friend of Anakin and he knew that Anakin had got the potential to become more powerful then any of his former apprentices.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Would Anakin have helped him if he were ripping Mace apart, cackling manically?
Anakin would not fight him in any case because he wanted his assistance in saving Padme.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
SW.com has announced there'll be books in the KOTOR time period and there's a KOTOR era comic. But not a KOTOR novelization
Still it is good news because it will make KOTOR more credible.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It isn't. It's not the same as a REAL force storm that tears apart space.
Fine! but it has been included in the list of Force Powers as a second form of Force Storm in EU.

Note that Force Storm of Sidious is also an EU canon and was never shown in the movies.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
One is a name for a powerful blast of lightning.
It is now called "Force Storm" because of it's much greater intensity and damage. If this was not approved by Lucas Arts then this power would never have been named as "Force Storm" in the Games and also in POD Novel.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
One is a giant hyperspace wormhole that can devour fleets Yeah! that is now one form of Force Storm.

A correction!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
which's why he was cornered on his boarded ship...
He was cornered but that does not means that he was defeated. And Malak reveals in KOTOR that he helped those Jedi trap Revan.

And just to note, Kavat was NEVER stated to be the "best duelist" of the order. The only thing Mandalore said about him was he expected that he would lead the Jedi in the Mandolorian Wars and that he was the leader of the Guardians.

True, but he was still probably one of the elites of the order, being the leader of the jedi guardians (who were the more martial jedi, generally focusing on saber combat). He was possibly the best.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well! he had hundred's of years to make him powerful enough to achieve plenty.

But still Yoda has not accomplished something on the scale of Revan and Sidious, who accomplished much more in much shorter time period.
Indeed. What makes you so sure Yoda hasn't achieved as much? Unlike Revan and Palpatine, Yoda wants to keeo things peaceful and stable.


Lucas hardly cares about the EU whatsoever. It wasn't a matter of 'I can't explore everything.' it was 'Smells like MONEY!"

he doesn't approve anything personally. The only things he does approve are things pertaining to specific movie items

Dude....GL has never even seen KOTOR. He did NOT personally approve it, his company and staff did

So the ROTS novelization fits in with it

Indeed. However, it's not as if Revan took an easy victory

No, it's because Obi-wan is the best Soresu master to ever live


That's because Anakin was stronger in the force and a better duelist than Dooku. No more, no less.


Did you see me deny it?


advent's handled this many times


Dooku can easily counter a more aggressive form such as Vaapad. For the last time: It was stated Anakin was one of, if not the most powerful Jedi alive and Palpatine himself calls him stronger.

And more powerful in the Force

Knowledge is held in check by raw power.

Just.....stop. Okay? It's confirmed explicitly in the EU and the movies that anakin is more powerful


I wasn't aware a flip is a power

Point being?
when Malak can take on Thon, I'll believe it.

In the force? Lightsabre combat perhaps, and in raw potential and power; but I can't remember him exceeding Dooku in the force.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Good enough!


OK!


Order stopped functioning after "The Shadow War", until Sion and Nihilus were defeated
It went into hiding and came out after. Fair enough.


and if someone could use force immunity or just block it? What then?


But force immunity counters it by your own words...and thon survives a blast that destroys a planet, I'd gonna side with him on basis of reasonable doubt


No, it isn't. Anyone can edit Wikipedia and it should not be used in arguments


Sure. But many survived


Last I checked, Telos was bombarded when Revan was DLOTS. Malak's actions reflect on Revan


Read. Debunked


Palpatine wouldn't have gotten Anakin unless he WAS ALREADY MORE POWERFUL, GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD! He SAYS RIGHT IN THE GODDAMN MOVIE ANAKIN IS MORE POWERFUL THAN TYRANUS!


Grasping at straws, much

except it hasn't. Show me one place besides gameplay

Your point?


Oh, right, and 'Force Horror' is the name of an ability....sorry, gameplay= N canon

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
In the force? Lightsabre combat perhaps, and in raw potential and power; but I can't remember him exceeding Dooku in the force.

Mace wIndu: Anakin Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive...and he's getting stronger..

Palpatine: Soon I will have a new apprentice...one younger and more powerful!

As would be Count Dooku if he were still a jedi, arguably.



How is this referring to the force only? It means overall.

Count being the strongest jedi alive and growing more powerful? Very doubtful!

Considering Dooku isn't stronger than the strongest Jedi...

You really think Palpatine would pick up an inferior apprentice?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Indeed. What makes you so sure Yoda hasn't achieved as much? Unlike Revan and Palpatine, Yoda wants to keeo things peaceful and stable.
Achievements of Revan and Palpatine > then that of Yoda. End of Story.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Lucas hardly cares about the EU whatsoever. It wasn't a matter of 'I can't explore everything.' it was 'Smells like MONEY!"
Everyone cares about money and Star Wars is GL's idea and he profits from it. But he also allows other people to modify it and expand it. End of Story.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
he doesn't approve anything personally. The only things he does approve are things pertaining to specific movie items
OK! so you think that whatever is being added in GL's Star Wars Saga, is actually without his knowledge?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dude....GL has never even seen KOTOR. He did NOT personally approve it, his company and staff did
He would at-least know its story though because it is up their in "www.starwars.com"!

And his Company and Staff did approved KOTOR and that does not gives you any hint about approval from BOSS! right? Or you are trying to say that GL is actually ignorant of what is happening to Star Wars?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So the ROTS novelization fits in with it
It is but is lesser canon. I base my arguements on the movies, which is greater canon. End of Story.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Indeed. However, it's not as if Revan took an easy victory
Here you said it yourself!

So it proves that Malak was indeed a very formidable opponent. And Revan had to struggle against him and Revan is more powerful then Anakin! right?

So! what makes you think that Anakin will not have to struggle against Malak?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, it's because Obi-wan is the best Soresu master to ever live
How many Jedi have been known to practice Soresu? Very few actually!

You can say that Obi-Wan was more experienced and was not an idiot like Anakin was!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's because Anakin was stronger in the force and a better duelist than Dooku. No more, no less.
Now! Anakin had not reached his full potential in ROTS! right?

And Tyranus showed us some impressive "Force Powers"! right?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Did you see me deny it?
You failed to mention it repeatedly when discussing Yoda's fighting style.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
advent's handled this many times
Advent has her own views about things. You should mention yours.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dooku can easily counter a more aggressive form such as Vaapad. For the last time: It was stated Anakin was one of, if not the most powerful Jedi alive and Palpatine himself calls him stronger.
Palpatine called him stronger due to these reasons:

1) Anakin defeated Dooku in combat.
2) Anakin had more Force Potential then Dooku.

So, he used the term "powerful" in general sense to describe Anakin. How difficult is this to get in your head?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And more powerful in the Force
Wrong! Dooku has shown us more "Force Powers". Anakin had greater potential and thats it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Knowledge is held in check by raw power.
And pure "Raw Power" is more associated with "Physical Attributes" of a person.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Just.....stop. Okay? It's confirmed explicitly in the EU and the movies that anakin is more powerful
Becomes more powerful actually but not in ROTS. So, you stop actually.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I wasn't aware a flip is a power
Anakin said that he will try his new powers before flipping. Not my fault.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Point being?
Point is that G-G lost against those Jedi who were more powerful then the ones he has killed.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
when Malak can take on Thon, I'll believe it.
This is not Malak vs Thon scenario.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It went into hiding and came out after. Fair enough.
I did not understand this comment?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and if someone could use force immunity or just block it? What then?
Do you know that Thon knows "Force Immunity"?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
But force immunity counters it by your own words...and thon survives a blast that destroys a planet, I'd gonna side with him on basis of reasonable doubt
Bane survived the most deadly thing ever known to any Jedi and Sith, which is "The Thought Bomb", so this means that Bane is the most powerful Sith in the entire Star Wars Saga! right?

Ever understood a word called "LUCK"?

You can't prove that Thon is more powerful then Malak and Nihilus unless you prove it so stop using his account of survival to describe his power. That had more to do with LUCK and then his actual power.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, it isn't. Anyone can edit Wikipedia and it should not be used in arguments
And if someone adds a change that contradicts with facts then it gets edited back again.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sure. But many survived
You said before that all Jedi died on Katarr! right?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Last I checked, Telos was bombarded when Revan was DLOTS. Malak's actions reflect on Revan
A single case actually but people still blamed that event on Malak and not Revan. It was Malak who gave order to destroy "Telos".

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Read. Debunked
No!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Palpatine wouldn't have gotten Anakin unless he WAS ALREADY MORE POWERFUL, GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD! He SAYS RIGHT IN THE GODDAMN MOVIE ANAKIN IS MORE POWERFUL THAN TYRANUS!
I have mentioned above that why Palpatine called Anakin more powerful.

And one thing you forgot about Sidious is that he is a Sith, which means that "Lies" and "Treachery" are his ways. End of Story.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Grasping at straws, much

Fine! but it has been included in the list of Force Powers as a second form of Force Storm in EU.

except it hasn't. Show me one place besides gameplay
Star Wars does not have a list of "Force Powers", which shows that new "Force Powers" can be invented and added in EU and Sidious's "Force Storm" was also invented and added in EU. Point Moot.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Your point?
My point is that the "Force Storm" demonstrated by Sidious (Which is C-Canon! of-course) was invented and mentioned in EU. So it is as much credible as the "Force Storm (Lightning)" power. Point Moot.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, right, and 'Force Horror' is the name of an ability....sorry, gameplay= N canon
Game-play and "Force Powers" are two different things. And all "Force Powers" mentioned in KOTOR are now C-Canon. Point Moot.

Lightsnake! you will get no-where with this debate because you don't use your own "common-sense" and "logic" to describe things.

Here is a brief summary of what I have learned from Lightsnake:

A)- Always rely upon "Greater Canon". And yet Lightsnake uses "Lesser Canon" material in case of debate on SW-ROTS.

B)- Malak is a Pansy. He is an idiot as well. And yet he is a formidable match for Revan (who is without doubt one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith in Star Wars Saga). But Anakin will be all over Malak because Anakin > everyone.

C)- Dooku > Malak (because Advent said do) .Where is your own knowledge and reasoning then?

D)- Anakin > Dooku because Sidious said so. And yet you forgot that Sidious is a Sith and "Lies" and "Treachery" are his ways. Even GL says this himself. And Dooku demonstrates more knowledge of the Force in ROTS as well.

E)- Anakin's Djem form is most deadly form and he can be all over on anybody using it. And yet it failed against Soresu.

F)- Thon is GODLY powerful because he survived a destruction of a planet. he can destroy anybody.

G)- Personal Bias on "Force Storm". And yet when describing "Force Storm" based powers, you forgot that both of them have been mentioned in EU and not in G-Canon movies, but you only believe in one form of "Force Storm" and others should also.

H)- Vima can defeat Nihilus and Sion.

I)- Yoda's main achievements are shrouded in mystery and only minor achievements have been mentioned in Star Wars Saga.

J)- George Lucas is ignorant and he does not knows that what new things are being added in his Star Wars Saga.

Is their anything left! Lightsnake?

My next advice: Stop this endless debate because you are contradicting yourself on various accounts and not using any Logic and Sense at all.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Lightsnake! you will get no-where with this debate because you don't use your own "common-sense" and "logic" to describe things.

Here is a brief summary of what I have learned from Lightsnake:

A)- Always rely upon "Greater Canon". And yet Lightsnake uses "Lesser Canon" material in case of debate on SW-ROTS.
Do you get off on hypocrisy? There's a full difference beteen that and using supplementary material. IE: It doesn't contradict.

See Advent's argument. Malak's below the PT elites. Sorry

Why should I type up pages when a more eloquent argument is higher up on the page?

Where? He throws Obi-wan once? Why would Palpatine lie there? Why would he give up a perfecytly powerful apprentice for an inferior one?
And in case you forget, idiot, the EU confirmed anakin as more powerful

Where the **** did I say anything like that?


Who said that? I just said he has to be formidable.
You're a grade A moron

Show me where this lightning Force Storm is mentioned in EU besides N-canon game stats

Are you an idiot or something? I said she was one of the top Jedi of her age

Considering Lucas has declared most of Yoda's life off limits, yeah. The most we know of now is Yoda defeating a Dark Jedi rebellion.

Are you just stupid? Lucas himself said he doesn't keep up with the EU in most cases. And the editors of LFL review the material. Are you familiar with delegations? Want me to get the word of an author to shut you up?
Lucas doesn't keep up with things. Noone goes to him unless it involves a major change for a movie character. LFL employees and editors take care of it

You're a grade A fool

My next advice: Stop this endless debate because you are contradicting yourself on various accounts and not using any Logic and Sense at all.

Maybe regular Malak, but SF powered Malak?

SF powered Malak, I'd say. Advent's dealt with that too

Well he has demonstrated extreme force mastery such as using the force to lift two jedi up, choking the first one while blasting the other with lightning, then throwing his saber into the first one killing him while throwing the second back using the force. These two jedi were clearly very skilled having fought through much of the Star Forge, and Malak just toyed with both of them like they were children. I'd say this feat alone puts him high up on the scales.

Lightsnake! calling me fool and moron will make you look bad and not me. So stop using such language because I can use bad language as well.

Now, you keep on referring to me that Advent has proved that Dooku is better then Malak. But I told you before that it is her opinion and if she has to say something about him then she can again say it again here because nobody is stopping her.

You should provide your own opinion on these kinds of debates but you have shown me that you solely rely on opinions of others which is not healthy in these kinds of debates.

I have mentioned some details on Malak here and they are true. But you have yet to counter them yourself.

And if Anakin was more powerful then Dooku then he would defeat Obi-Wan easily, which was not the case. And saying that Obi-Wan knew Anakin well is irrelevant because Anakin also knew Obi-Wan very well.


You have still to show me evidence from official Star Wars sources that Anakin is more porwerful then Dooku.


And yet you used Thon and Vima in this debate and said that they could stop Nihilus and Sion, if Exile could not.

So, you again have contradicted yourself. And proved that you are a bigger idiot.

And regarding Lucas, these were my previous words: "George Lucas is a busy man and so he cannot explain the entire Star Wars Saga himself. So, he gave other people the opportunity and green-light to expand the Star Wars Saga beyond his movies and thus "Expanded Universe" was born. Though! he himself has contributed in EU but not as much."

So, I have said the same thing about GL before that you have said now in different manner so keep your information of GL with you.

Anakin did know Obi, but Obi knew him better. He was the one who trained him, he knew all of his weaknesses, his strenghts, and how he would act in situations.
And even if they both knew eachother well doesn't mean Anakin has to slaughter him because he normally would. They both knew what the other would do, (Anakin was blinded by rage, so I doubt he would think much about that) so logically no one should get through in a while, if they both know what the other is thinking. George Lucas has even stated that it is this way (ROTS commentary) so it's no point in arguing this.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Lightsnake! calling me fool and moron will make you look bad and not me. So stop using such language because I can use bad language as well.
Which's more amusing as I'm just saying what everyone else's thinking

Except she did say it before. In a rather convincing argument, too!

Is this a translation for 'whine, whine, how dare you use an argument that needs nothing added to it?'

Your entire argument boils down to: "But he's strong!" Yep. Noone'd contest that

Learn about fighting, then come back. Obi-wan knew anakin's style, moves and abilities.
See? Two people who know one another very well fighting will take a very long time


Besides the movie, the New Essential Chronology, the Novelization, the Visual Guides, the Complete Guide....nope, nothing says it


I referred to them as top Jedi of the age. Period

Stupid dogs shouldn't bark so loud

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which's more amusing as I'm just saying what everyone else's thinking
You can't say for sure that what others think about me. And many people do not use such foul language in debates.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except she did say it before. In a rather convincing argument, too!
I asked for your opinion and not hers.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Is this a translation for 'whine, whine, how dare you use an argument that needs nothing added to it?'
You have no right to stop me from using any arguement.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Your entire argument boils down to: "But he's strong!" Yep. Noone'd contest that
And I told you that that strength is one of his advantages that Anakin does not have.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Learn about fighting, then come back. Obi-wan knew anakin's style, moves and abilities.
See? Two people who know one another very well fighting will take a very long time
I agree!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Besides the movie, the New Essential Chronology, the Novelization, the Visual Guides, the Complete Guide....nope, nothing says it
Fine! But show me direct referrences or quotes from GL, if possible.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I referred to them as top Jedi of the age. Period
And they become irrelevant.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Stupid dogs shouldn't bark so loud
Now you use one such word and I will make sure that you learn some manners. This is a warning.

And I'm citing her argument, is this hard to understand? And btw: Insults are not 'foul language.'


Oh, dear me, a warning from someone with no authority or power!

and where should I have to show you anything from GL? They're in the movie and officially published material. Anakin>Dooku. Sorry

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And I'm citing her argument, is this hard to understand? And btw: Insults are not 'foul language.'


Oh, dear me, a warning from someone with no authority or power!

and where should I have to show you anything from GL? They're in the movie and officially published material. Anakin>Dooku. Sorry
Well! you have a poor mentality level and thats why you resort to insults.

And I used word "warning" to alert you that I am from now on, not going to tolerate any bad language or such words from you. And I will resort to insult you aggressively, if necessary.

But I hope that it does not comes down to that.

Ladies...Ladies. Calm down, let's all be freinds and watch the following movie...

http://www.transbuddha.com/mediaHolder.php?id=1019

Now, kiss and make up!

LOL. Lightsnake, please don't taunt or aggravate your opponent. Legend, calm your mind my friend. A lesson to be learned is that your opponents here are not going to be "oh i'm sorry, i sooo apologize", you have to insult them back sometimes. Fight for your honor!

Thanks for your advice my friend! Prodigal Knight

Though, I believe that discussions should take place in civilized manner but some people can't keep it that way.

And it was nice! Darth Sexiest

Legend, quit being ridiculous. Anakin > Dooku, in swordplay, and in a fight, I doubt he'd have the time to pull off a Force attack.

Originally posted by Escape81
Legend, quit being ridiculous. Anakin > Dooku, in swordplay, and in a fight, I doubt he'd have the time to pull off a Force attack.
I already agree with this.

Originally posted by Escape81
Legend, quit being ridiculous. Anakin > Dooku, in swordplay, and in a fight, I doubt he'd have the time to pull off a Force attack.

Why? It would take a few seconds for them to engage in saber combat, Dooku would be able to pull off a force attack in a second if he chose to, not that I think Anakin would necessarily be beaten by Dooku through the force, just saying.

Originally posted by Dessel
Why? It would take a few seconds for them to engage in saber combat, Dooku would be able to pull off a force attack in a second if he chose to, not that I think Anakin would necessarily be beaten by Dooku through the force, just saying.

Count Dooku will have to attack him before they engage in a saber duel. Do you not recall RotS? Anakin was battering through his defenses - if he could have pulled off a Force attack - he would have. But he didn't.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well! you have a poor mentality level and thats why you resort to insults.

And I used word "warning" to alert you that I am from now on, not going to tolerate any bad language or such words from you. And I will resort to insult you aggressively, if necessary.

But I hope that it does not comes down to that.

I'm frightened.

Make Love Not War!!!

Srry, I'm lost. Is this Darth Revan or post-KOTOR Revan?

I'll do that after the war

Originally posted by Darth Godzilla
Srry, I'm lost. Is this Darth Revan or post-KOTOR Revan?
No restrictions have been put on Revan in this thread.


Their is no war between you and me. We are just discussing things and thats it.

shall we get back to the match?