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Rotj luke is fighting like he was at the end of the Rotj duel (pissed off) vs dark rots anakin

where: Mustafar

been done before, Anakin pwns his ass.

Anakin destroys him, he's faster, stronger, technically better and stronger in the force (reflexes, precognition etc.).

wut about a starfighter batttle Jedi Intercepter vs. X-wing, it is tooo obvious Luke gets b*tch slapped with a missile.

Yea, Anakin showed more force ability and had wwwaaaayyyy better saber skills. Pwned Dooku!

****RUNNING FROM RAMPANTOX****

ROTJ Luke is around par of Darth Maul. ROTS Anakin can kill Darth Maul in around a half minute+, so I would say Anakin finishes off his son in maybe 25 seconds.

In a normal state, yes, Anakin would easily defeat ROTJ Luke, but this is Luke in a super-ticked state. While like this he was able to beat down Vader. I don't see Anakin being able to keep up.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
In a normal state, yes, Anakin would easily defeat ROTJ Luke, but this is Luke in a super-ticked state. While like this he was able to beat down Vader. I don't see Anakin being able to keep up.

Luke is pretty sloppy when he is mad Anakin can still fight with great skill when he is angery

I give Luke 20 seconds tops, it would most likely take around 10 - 15 seconds.

Are yall forgetting that this is Luke in the state he was in when he took Vader down? If he can take down Vader I don't see why he can't take down Anakin.

Vader sucks, as does Luke. Luke in the state that he was in would work against him in this duel, it would only end the duel quicker.

Vader sucks? Hardly. Vader took down seven Jedi Masters at the same time. Also, Vader is 80% as strong as Sidious, who eventually became much stronger than Yoda. Lumiya, who managed to almost defeat LOTF Luke, was awed by Vader's power. Vader doesn't suck and Luke took him down.

Hmm, lets see...
Luke:
- Destroyed Black Sun HQ with some help from Dash, Lando, Vhewie and Leia.
- Defeated all of Jabba's guards single-handedly (minus Boba, who Han took care of).
- Destroyed a Swoop Bike using his lightsaber.
- Defeated Darth Vader because Vader was conflicted and trying NOT to hurt Luke.

vs.
Anakin:
- Has fought Asajj I believe twice, and won both times.
- Beat Durge (by luck, though).
- In LOE yelled and alarge room collapsed.
- Beat Dooku, thus proving himself stronger than Kenobi, who has also done alot of stuff.
- Was the hero of the Clone Wars.

Lets see... Luke would get pwnd by Dooku, he'd likely even lose to Obsession Asajj and definately Durge. Anakin takes him, in about 30 seconds, 40 tops.

Edit: Oh, so this is pissed off Luke, huh? Then I give him a minute, tops, likely less, ROTS Anakin is on par with Sidious, Luke could not take that.

Luke also killed a horde of soldiers using the essence of the Force (his eyes were blinded)

Originally posted by Darth Martin
****RUNNING FROM RAMPANTOX****

chair

Originally posted by darthsith19
- Defeated Darth Vader because Vader was conflicted and trying NOT to hurt Luke.

This was proven to be the reason that Luke won? Vader obviously isn't afraid of hurting Luke, as he took his hand off in the past. Vader didn't care much that Sidious was killing Luke for a good minute or so after he started. If Vader hadn't been fighting hard, what would have been the point?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Lets see... Luke would get pwnd by Dooku, he'd likely even lose to Obsession Asajj and definately Durge. Anakin takes him, in about 30 seconds, 40 tops.

Edit: Oh, so this is pissed off Luke, huh? Then I give him a minute, tops, likely less, ROTS Anakin is on par with Sidious, Luke could not take that.

Since when is Anakin on par with Sidious?

Sorry Glentract, but ROTS Anakin is superior to ROTS Luke in both the force and lightsaber combat. If I have to tell you why, then you obviously haven't seen the first 3 movies and compared them to the last 3.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sorry Glentract, but ROTS Anakin is superior to ROTS Luke in both the force and lightsaber combat. If I have to tell you why, then you obviously haven't seen the first 3 movies and compared them to the last 3.

Apparently you haven't yet seen the facts. ROTJ Luke beat down Vader in a fit of rage, who is as strong, if not much stronger, than ROTS Anakin. Seeing as this is Luke in a state of rage, he wins.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Apparently you haven't yet seen the facts. ROTJ Luke beat down Vader in a fit of rage, who is as strong, if not much stronger, than ROTS Anakin. Seeing as this is Luke in a state of rage, he wins.

You apparently fail to grasp the difference between mostly machine, and a human who can use the force freely to empower himself. Add to the fact that Vader was toying with him and then underestimated him, and you don't really have much of a case for Luke. Even if we assume for argument's sake that Luke had more strength than Anakin(impossible since Anakin was conceived of the force and therefore would have the greatest ability to increase his strength), then you have to understand that Anakin by ROTS was the greatest Djem So master of all time, while Luke didn't even learn a form yet. And unless you think Luke could take Dooku(no, he can't), then stop arguing nonsense.

Anakin completely owns Luke's ass.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You apparently fail to grasp the difference between mostly machine, and a human who can use the force freely to empower himself. Add to the fact that Vader was toying with him and then underestimated him, and you don't really have much of a case for Luke. Even if we assume for argument's sake that Luke had more strength than Anakin(impossible since Anakin was conceived of the force and therefore would have the greatest ability to increase his strength), then you have to understand that Anakin by ROTS was the greatest Djem So master of all time, while Luke didn't even learn a form yet. And unless you think Luke could take Dooku(no, he can't), then stop arguing nonsense.

There are plenty of failing's in your argument. Let me point them out to you.

1. Vader's machine body is in many cases an ADVANTAGE rather than a disadvantage. It offers him a knew level of physical strength that he did not have as Anakin. It also gives him some level of protection against lightsabers strikes.

2. Vader has an extra 23 years of experince. Vader has more than double the training time and experince that Anakin had. He knows significantly more about the Force than Anakin.

3. Anakin has never been proven to have been concieved by the Force.

4. If Anakin and Luke had the same potential at birth (which is very possible) then ROTJ Luke has MORE potential than ROTS Anakin, because Anakin is missing his whole are where Luke is missing only his hand.

5. Anakin was never stated to have been the greatest Djem So master of all time.

6. ROTJ Luke in his state of rage could probably take Dooku. Why? Because Luke took down Vader, who is stronger than Dooku.

7. When was it ever shown that Vader was toying with Luke?

8. When was it ever shown that Vader underestimated Luke? And going on this whole 'underestimated' argument, in the ROTS novel Dooku underestimated Anakin.

So there you have it, Luke wins.

Glentract, Anakin = the Chosen One. So either through the Force or Plagueis's machinations, he is conceived purely of midichlorians.

Dude don't be silly, Freedon Nadd is clearly the chosen one.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Dude don't be silly, Freedon Nadd is clearly the chosen one.

Sorry. The "SW Legacy Comics" thread (y'know, the one where Rex and I each had our turns at owning you?) disagrees.

But he wasn't as conflicted in ESB as he is in ROTJ.

No, he cared, he just didn't do anything out of fear.

The point was to turn Luke to the Dark Side.

Since is says so in a rolling stones interview.

Anakin is on par with (and likely superior) to Sidious in terms of lightsaber combat. But in the Force? Hardly. And he likely wouldn't win against Sidious or Yoda in an all out fight.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
There are plenty of failing's in your argument. Let me point them out to you.

1. Vader's machine body is in many cases an ADVANTAGE rather than a disadvantage. It offers him a knew level of physical strength that he did not have as Anakin. It also gives him some level of protection against lightsabers strikes.

2. Vader has an extra 23 years of experince. Vader has more than double the training time and experince that Anakin had. He knows significantly more about the Force than Anakin.

3. Anakin has never been proven to have been concieved by the Force.

4. If Anakin and Luke had the same potential at birth (which is very possible) then ROTJ Luke has MORE potential than ROTS Anakin, because Anakin is missing his whole are where Luke is missing only his hand.

5. Anakin was never stated to have been the greatest Djem So master of all time.

6. ROTJ Luke in his state of rage could probably take Dooku. Why? Because Luke took down Vader, who is stronger than Dooku.

7. When was it ever shown that Vader was toying with Luke?

8. When was it ever shown that Vader underestimated Luke? And going on this whole 'underestimated' argument, in the ROTS novel Dooku underestimated Anakin.

So there you have it, Luke wins.

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree.

1. The robotic body was probably less powerful and a lot less maneuverable.

3. Darth Plagueis did that.
"A child born of prophecy, possibly conceived by the will of the Force itself,"

4. Other than your head, body parts have little to do with the Force.
"Then Gantoris discovered that his hand motion did nothing but help him visualize moving the pole."

7. The Internet
"Vader offered Luke a chance to join forces rather than kill him outright."

All this information and more on starwars.com/databank/character

Jesus christ Glentract, stop hanging around on EOD and copying their ridiculous arguments. Unless you want to embarass yourself like Nebaris/Planet. Every source has confirmed that Anakin is the chosen one, case closed.

Originally posted by True Geek
I'm gonna go ahead and disagree.

1. The robotic body was probably less powerful and a lot less maneuverable.


I disagree completely, Because of the suit and his mechanical arms he is far stronger than he was without them, And vader learnt how to get agile in that suit, ----> Crimson empire

Originally posted by True Geek
I'm gonna go ahead and disagree.

1. The robotic body was probably less powerful and a lot less maneuverable.

3. Darth Plagueis did that.
"A child born of prophecy, possibly conceived by the will of the Force itself,"

4. Other than your head, body parts have little to do with the Force.
"Then Gantoris discovered that his hand motion did nothing but help him visualize moving the pole."

7. The Internet
"Vader offered Luke a chance to join forces rather than kill him outright."

All this information and more on starwars.com/databank/character


1. Actually, the Robotic Body was more physically powerful, and over time, Vader managed to gain much of his agility and speed back via. the Force.

2. Don't try and spread that "Plagueis" BS around here, this is the highest level of Speculation, it is in no way shape or form an actual fact. He could have created Anakin, but Anakin could just have easily been born of the force like the prophecy says, and seeing as he IS the chosen one, and since there is ZERO proof of Plaguies creating Anakin, then we must conclude that Anakin was indeed born of the Force alone, because the prophecy says so, and Anakin is the chosen one so therefore he was created by the Force. There is no proof of Plagueis creating Anakin, and until then we must look at what we know, which was Anakin was created by the Force alone, until further evidence says otherwise.

3. Other then your head? What about the Midichlorians that inhabit your cells in the rest of your body? Humm...

Originally posted by Sexyback
Dude don't be silly, Freedon Nadd is clearly the chosen one.
Since when did Nadd became The Chosen One?

Nadd was powerful but he was a damn Sith Lord. The Chosen One's purpose is to bring balance back to the Force and not make Dark Side more powerful.

Anakin was The Chosen One actually. It is true that he did became a Sith Lord in the process but he returned to Light and destroyed Sidious (the biggest threat to Light) to save his son and with him secure the future of the Jedi. Thus restoring balance to the Force.

Originally posted by Kadesh
I disagree completely, Because of the suit and his mechanical arms he is far stronger than he was without them, And vader learnt how to get agile in that suit, ----> Crimson empire
Exactly.

OT Vader was more powerful and his mastery in the Force had increased a lot. He had learned from his mistakes and could control his emotions and was also physically very strong as well. Though he was vulnerable to "Force Lightning" attack but I believe that he could stop it to some extent with his Light Saber.

ROTS Anakin was fast and agile but he was an idiot and could not control his emotions and thats why he lost to Obi-Wan.

Regarding ROTJ Luke vs ROTS Anakin fight:

ROTS Anakin will win after a good fight.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Jesus christ Glentract, stop hanging around on EOD and copying their ridiculous arguments. Unless you want to embarass yourself like Nebaris/Planet. Every source has confirmed that Anakin is the chosen one, case closed.

Dude, DG is one of the few people here that actually comes up with original arguments, we're still waiting for one from you Sexy, don't make us wait forever.

Who is we? Most of my arguments are original and good enough to shut you up. So stop saying "we" because "we" really means "You", and "You" have been embarrassed long enough to stop typing.

Name one original argument, go on, I dare you!

Once again, I'll take it seriously when someone other than you(who gets embarassed sitting on here 24/7), makes some constructive criticism.

Well I just find it funny that you would tell someone (who's arguments are one of the most original ones on this forum) that they need to stop copying arguments, when it's all you do.

And the forum clown is back..

As is the forum troll..

Good one, now stop embarassing yourself for the millionth time. I'm surprised you come back here daily for the same result.

The thing is, you calling me the forum clown doesn't quite make it so, you on the other hand are a troll, the biggest one here, all you do is attack other's and/or their arguments, try and act like you're in a position to do so, yet don't put forth your own arguments.

He also doesn't exaggerate in favor of his characters, lie, or refute canon fact, nor boast about his non-existent "extreme skillz" You do.

1. Right, he's not a Revan/Ragnos fanboy.
2. You're implying that I lie and refute canon fact. which is false.
3. It was Nebaris who said that, not me, however he made it perfectly clear that by 'extreme', he meant 'inconsistant', but this really is funny coming from the 'logic hound', that's right, the same logic hound who's hobbies include 'crushing the ridiculous opinions of GM Nebaris and Darth Sexy'.

But anyway, me and TD are having a deep conversation, please don't but in.

1. Shut up.
2. Shut up.
3. And shut up.

Now for the serious responses.

1. I dislike the whole 'You're a fanboy!' mentality. New rule in the forum- you may not accuse anybody of fanboyism, in the sense that you're trying to win the argument by accusing them thusly. That's just stupid. I'll start editting out posts and handing out warnings to those who slay it around like kids in a mud puddle. I will take it as a form of bashing.

2. You DO lie. See #3. And you've refuted canon fact too. See the Legacy thread where you declared 'Freedon Nadd is the Chosen One!' and were then promptly smashed to pieces.

3. It was Nebaris who said that, and therefore, you as well. You're not fooling anyone.

4. There was no #4, so I'm making one. Gideon, and anyone else, have every right to partake in the debates. Sorry, you don't dictate that, or anything else. doped

ANYWAYS...

I would give this to Anakin. Luke may have defeated Vader (best fighter doesn't always win!), but that never seems to get factored into the fights here. Anakin had more training and was more skilled and more powerful than Luke was at the time.

enough said, thanks for the laugh nebaris/planet.

Meanwhile, please view the new Rules in the Rules thread. doped

What was the time period between ANH and ROTJ? However long it was, I'm sure it wasn't as long of a period as TPM to ROTS. Anakin has more potential, was the most powerful knight the order had ever known, and had more extensive training from all of the best masters during the prime of the Jedi. Whereas Luke, got very little training from OB1 and a little more from Yoda, when he was far past his prime. Anakin just has too much going for him to lose. Sire, Luke beat Vader when tapping in to the darkside, after vader was toying with I'm and underestimated him, but Anakin has done far more. He beat Dooku a lot quicker and displayed more powerful feats that Luke ever has, save for EU.

Originally posted by darthsith19
But he wasn't as conflicted in ESB as he is in ROTJ.

No, he cared, he just didn't do anything out of fear.

The point was to turn Luke to the Dark Side.

Since is says so in a rolling stones interview.

Just because he was trying to turn Luke doesn't mean that he wasn't going to do his very best to not lose to him.

In ESB, when Vader went (apparently) all out on Luke he still had wanted Luke to join him.

Can I see a link for this Rolling Stones interview?

And Vader eventually changed his mind on letting Sidious kill Luke. He was going to let Sidious kill him. Luke not striking him down meant that he had failed to turn Luke to the darkside and so he would have to kill him. It's JUST like when Anakin and Dooku fought. Do you think that Dooku threw his fight against Anakin or did he really lose fairly?

Anakin won fairly.

Now that I think about it, we've never really seen Vader go ALL OUT on anyone. Here's why-
ANH- Obi gives up
ESB- Toys with Luke
RotJ- Conflicting emotions affect him; he is trying not to kill Luke

Here's my proof for what I said about RotJ:
He won without the slightest exertion in ESB. Luke did absolutely nothing to improve enough to change the outcome of a duel against a Sith Lord between the two duels.
Why didn't Vader start throwing things like in ESB? Or using the Force at all?
Why did he say, "It's too late for me, son?" or some crap like that before the duel. That's like saying, "I'm sorry for killing the guy, but I can't be sorry." VADER WAS ALREADY REGRETTING HIS DEEDS! He was not going all out if he only wanted to fight halfheartedly.

indeed

Originally posted by Darth Godzilla
Now that I think about it, we've never really seen Vader go ALL OUT on anyone. Here's why-
ANH- Obi gives up
ESB- Toys with Luke
RotJ- Conflicting emotions affect him; he is trying not to kill Luke

Here's my proof for what I said about RotJ:
He won without the slightest exertion in ESB. Luke did absolutely nothing to improve enough to change the outcome of a duel against a Sith Lord between the two duels.
Why didn't Vader start throwing things like in ESB? Or using the Force at all?
Why did he say, "It's too late for me, son?" or some crap like that before the duel. That's like saying, "I'm sorry for killing the guy, but I can't be sorry." VADER WAS ALREADY REGRETTING HIS DEEDS! He was not going all out if he only wanted to fight halfheartedly.

Vader won without the slightest exertion in ESB? I think not. Luke got a solid hit on Vader's shoulder. Vader was also 'impressed' by Luke's abilities.

Vader felt that it was to late for him, so he had to stick with the Darkside, aka, kill Luke. Luke got ticked and ripped up on him though. Vader might have won if he'd been fighting at his peak the entire time, but Luke did manage to beat him, showing considerable skill on his part. Vader is better than Anakin, so even if Luke is only equal to Vader, he's still better than Anakin.

A>B>C arguements dont mean shit.

Let's just say that ROTJ enraged Luke is on par with ROTS Anakin in terms sabers (not that I really think that). Being enraged still does nothing for force power. Since this is Mustafar, Anakin simply tosses Luke into a river of lava thanks to his superior force power. Fight over.

Luke gets WTFPwned.

25 seconds to maybe 50 seconds???? Well, I guess that's getting pwned.

Originally posted by PuffyCheese
Let's just say that ROTJ enraged Luke is on par with ROTS Anakin in terms sabers (not that I really think that). Being enraged still does nothing for force power. Since this is Mustafar, Anakin simply tosses Luke into a river of lava thanks to his superior force power. Fight over.

Alright. So lets say that Luke gains no additional Force Power because of his state of rage. Now, I don't believe that he wouldn't gain any strength; I mean, it does grant him access to the Darkside. But lets just go on what we know. Lets say that Luke get zero additional strength in the Force.

Okay, so where's you proof that Anakin has superior Force Powers?

A>B>C arguements dont mean shit.

Not always. This isn't your typical A>B>C argument though. In this instance, B is C. So you can see A>B makes A>C.

Proof that Anakin had superior powers? You must have forgotten when he destroyed a building with his rage, when he burnt a being from the inside because of his rage, when he was trained with force abilities while Luke was not. This is not even a discussion Glentract, stop trying.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Vader is better than Anakin, so even if Luke is only equal to Vader, he's still better than Anakin.

No, you're wrong.

Anakin, before getting his limbs strewn across the banks of Mustafar, was the better lightsaber duelist by far. This is apparent throughout the entire saga, you don't even need to look at anything else. Although, if you do, I'm fairly certain you'll find things such as:

"In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess." (Episode VI Lore.)

And,

"Vader was half-man, half-machine. Obi-Wan was an old man, it was a hard fight. It wasn't an acrobatic, jump around, fast fight. It was hard fight to fight because they're old Jedi." (A New Hope Commentary, George Lucas.)

What's rather funny is that Luke isn't even as "skillful or acrobatic as the young Jedi of the prequels", yet he managed to overwhelm Darth Vader and contend with him legitimately.

Darth Vader only has a Force advantage over his former self, in lightsaber combat he would be decimated. Furthermore, he barely used the Force against Luke in RotJ, except in one instance where he threw his lightsaber. That was it.

How do you figure that Luke = Vader, therefore he's > Anakin? Oh, wait. That's flawed since Anakin > Vader, in dueling prowess. The aspect of combat that Luke "bested" Darth Vader in.

Anakin kicks the ever living shit out of his son. Even in terms of the Force, he's greater, but I wouldn't give him more than thirty seconds in a duel. Much like when Vader turned on the juice in ESB, and lopped off his hand, except in this case, the far better duelist will severe his head instead.

In saber combat Vader'd be decimated? Errr....Vader was a damn fine saber fighter.

And this quote pretty much proves lightsnakes point


Time and again the two jedi attempted to alter their style, but vader had an answer for every lunge, parry and riposte. His style borrowed elemtents from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves are crisp and unpredictable, In addition, his incredible foresight allows him to anticipate Forte's and Kulkas strategies and manuevers/

So now he has foresight allowing him to know what is his opponents next move

Source: RODV


And he further improves on his skills as my favourite quote which JA and Shadow of the empire proves,

Originally posted by Advent
No, you're wrong.

Anakin, before getting his limbs strewn across the banks of Mustafar, was the better lightsaber duelist by far. This is apparent throughout the entire saga, you don't even need to look at anything else. Although, if you do, I'm fairly certain you'll find things such as:

"In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess." (Episode VI Lore.)

And,

"Vader was half-man, half-machine. Obi-Wan was an old man, it was a hard fight. It wasn't an acrobatic, jump around, fast fight. It was hard fight to fight because they're old Jedi." (A New Hope Commentary, George Lucas.)

What's rather funny is that Luke isn't even as "skillful or acrobatic as the young Jedi of the prequels", yet he managed to overwhelm Darth Vader and contend with him legitimately.

Darth Vader only has a Force advantage over his former self, in lightsaber combat he would be decimated. Furthermore, he barely used the Force against Luke in RotJ, except in one instance where he threw his lightsaber. That was it.

How do you figure that Luke = Vader, therefore he's > Anakin? Oh, wait. That's flawed since Anakin > Vader, in dueling prowess. The aspect of combat that Luke "bested" Darth Vader in.

Anakin kicks the ever living shit out of his son. Even in terms of the Force, he's greater, but I wouldn't give him more than thirty seconds in a duel. Much like when Vader turned on the juice in ESB, and lopped off his hand, except in this case, the far better duelist will severe his head instead.

I really don't think this could have been said any better or clearer.

This apparantly changes that

And this quote pretty much proves lightsnakes point


Time and again the two jedi attempted to alter their style, but vader had an answer for every lunge, parry and riposte. His style borrowed elemtents from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves are crisp and unpredictable, In addition, his incredible foresight allows him to anticipate Forte's and Kulkas strategies and manuevers

So now he has foresight allowing him to know what is his opponents next move

Source: RODV


And he further improves on his skills as my favourite quote which JA and Shadow of the empire proves,

Originally posted by Lightsnake
In saber combat Vader'd be decimated? Errr....Vader was a damn fine saber fighter.

And? So was Count Dooku, but we all saw what happened to him, didn't we? Just in case you missed it:

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/5427/dooku1lk5.jpg

By "decimated", I mean just that. He really doesn't have a chance in lightsaber combat, like he wouldn't last more two minutes. Similar to Dooku.

@ Kadesh:



All it proves is that he was good, just like Qui-Gon was good, or Darth Maul was good, or for that matter, Cin Drallig, who we know was good (yet Anakin pwned him with one hand while choking another padawan).

It doesn't prove that he was any better than before (i.e. pre-suit).



Have you even heard of precognition? Practically every Jedi possesses this. Anakin Skywalker had this, what the hell do you mean by "now he has foresight"? He's always had it. It just so happens that Darth Vader is already better than his opponents, in this case.

Just because that couple of Jedi Knights couldn't beat Darth Vader doesn't mean Anakin couldn't, or that he's better than his former self. He can borrow elements from every form in the book, it doesn't change the fact he's not as skilled, fast, and flexible.

So, your quote proves nothing; please insert 25 cents.



Source: I don't give two shits.



Your quote is nothing more than showing us that Darth Vader can contend against droids, who do not have precognition.

"z0mg blademaster x1000000000 skill!!!!!//ONELEVEN!!"

Well, flip the chairs and call me a cowboy! Seriously, it's not as impressive as you'd like to think, and doesn't prove that pre-suit Anakin is the lesser in saber ability (because he's not).



Changes what exactly? Nothing you provided proves the latter Darth Vader is a better duelist than the former Anakin Skywalker. Nor does it disprove that Anakin would decimate Darth Vader like he did to Count Dooku (possibly worse).

George Lucas says that Vader's fight against Old Ben Kenobi was a "hard fight to fight". How do you actually expect Vader to hold Anakin off for say, the time Obi-Wan did in RotS, when even Count Dooku (who can easily contend with, and possibily match Vader in lightsaber skill) couldn't, and when he was having a "hard fight" against Obi-Wan in ANH? An Obi-Wan who Lucas describes as "an old man" and "old Jedi", and an Obi-Wan who - in regards to lightsaber combat - is probably a league below his RotS incarnation (who Anakin is better than).

Furthermore, he gets put on his ass (legit) by his son, who isn't even "as skillful or acrobatic as the young Jedi of the prequels". Plus, we have the end all, be all on the matter. A direct statement in the Ep. VI Lore, which states Anakin is greater, and Darth Vader's skill is "seriously hampered" (in other words, he sucks in comparison).

"Your Darth Vader's dead, son. Accept it.

Lightsnake and I have come to the conclusion that you are not an avid IM user.

You got blocked!

Originally posted by Sexyback
You got blocked!

It's quite possible.

Lol!

Force mastery- Vader>Anakin>Luke
Lightsaber prowess- Anakin>Vader>Luke

Of course, as I've said before, we've never seen Vader go all-out on ANYONE in the movies. For instance:
ANH- Obi-wan gives up
ESB- Vader toys with Luke
RotJ- Conflicting emotions affect him; he is trying not to kill Luke

Here's my proof for what I said about RotJ:
He won without the slightest exertion in ESB. Luke did absolutely nothing to improve enough to change the outcome of a duel against a Sith Lord between the two duels.
Why didn't Vader start throwing things like in ESB? Or using the Force at all?
Why did he say, "It's too late for me, son?" or some crap like that before the duel. That's like saying, "I'm sorry for killing the guy, but I can't be sorry." VADER WAS ALREADY REGRETTING HIS DEEDS! He was not going all out if he only wanted to fight halfheartedly.

Anakin ALMOST pwns, but not quite.

BTW, if anyone cares, my SN is Kaiser Connors.

Originally posted by Advent
And? So was Count Dooku, but we all saw what happened to him, didn't we? Just in case you missed it:

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/5427/dooku1lk5.jpg

By "decimated", I mean just that. He really doesn't have a chance in lightsaber combat, like he wouldn't last more two minutes. Similar to Dooku.

@ Kadesh:



All it proves is that he was good, just like Qui-Gon was good, or Darth Maul was good, or for that matter, Cin Drallig, who we know was good (yet Anakin pwned him with one hand while choking another padawan).

It doesn't prove that he was any better than before (i.e. pre-suit).



Have you even heard of precognition? Practically every Jedi possesses this. Anakin Skywalker had this, what the hell do you mean by "now he has foresight"? He's always had it. It just so happens that Darth Vader is already better than his opponents, in this case.

Just because that couple of Jedi Knights couldn't beat Darth Vader doesn't mean Anakin couldn't, or that he's better than his former self. He can borrow elements from every form in the book, it doesn't change the fact he's not as skilled, fast, and flexible.

So, your quote proves nothing; please insert 25 cents.



Source: I don't give two shits.



Your quote is nothing more than showing us that Darth Vader can contend against droids, who do not have precognition.

"z0mg blademaster x1000000000 skill!!!!!//ONELEVEN!!"

Well, flip the chairs and call me a cowboy! Seriously, it's not as impressive as you'd like to think, and doesn't prove that pre-suit Anakin is the lesser in saber ability (because he's not).



Changes what exactly? Nothing you provided proves the latter Darth Vader is a better duelist than the former Anakin Skywalker. Nor does it disprove that Anakin would decimate Darth Vader like he did to Count Dooku (possibly worse).

George Lucas says that Vader's fight against Old Ben Kenobi was a "hard fight to fight". How do you actually expect Vader to hold Anakin off for say, the time Obi-Wan did in RotS, when even Count Dooku (who can easily contend with, and possibily match Vader in lightsaber skill) couldn't, and when he was having a "hard fight" against Obi-Wan in ANH? An Obi-Wan who Lucas describes as "an old man" and "old Jedi", and an Obi-Wan who - in regards to lightsaber combat - is probably a league below his RotS incarnation (who Anakin is better than).

Furthermore, he gets put on his ass (legit) by his son, who isn't even "as skillful or acrobatic as the young Jedi of the prequels". Plus, we have the end all, be all on the matter. A direct statement in the Ep. VI Lore, which states Anakin is greater, and Darth Vader's skill is "seriously hampered" (in other words, he sucks in comparison).

"Your Darth Vader's dead, son. Accept it.

I've been waiting for someone to post this.

Anakin curbstomps Luke. Superior in both the force and lightsabre combat. Anakin is also physcially stronger,bigger more athletic and faster than Luke. Luke is not as battle hardened. Anakin on the other hand is a seasoned Jedi-Knight with loads of training and experience and is utterly ruthless. I'm sorry but Luke gets horribly curbstomped.

So? Vader had two decades to imrpvoe and adept. In fact, some of the things he's done surpass anything Anakin could, in force or in saber.

In ROTJ movie, we saw Father vs Son showdown. How many fathers we have seen who would be willing to kill their sons in combat? Not a single one perhaps.

Darth Vader was not trying his best against Luke. He wanted to turn him to Dark Side. Partly because he had his own motives as well.

But Luke did not and Sidious started pawning him. Then Vader's true emotions came to the scene and we see that what happened to the all-powerful and all-wise Sidious!

I believe that OT Vader is more powerful then PT Vader. PT Vader has advantage in Saber Combat and agility though.

Originally posted by Advent

Have you even heard of precognition? Practically every Jedi possesses this. Anakin Skywalker had this, what the hell do you mean by "now he has foresight"? He's always had it. It just so happens that Darth Vader is already better than his opponents, in this case.

But being 1 step ahead makes a difference and the added advantage that vader knows how anakin works, what are his strategies
Originally posted by Advent

Just because that couple of Jedi Knights couldn't beat Darth Vader doesn't mean Anakin couldn't, or that he's better than his former self. He can borrow elements from every form in the book, it doesn't change the fact he's not as skilled, fast, and flexible.
Um merging forms itself and using it effectively already proves his skill to do so, how many jedi or sith could actually do that in the past thousand years? None




Originally posted by Advent


Source: I don't give two shits.

The by all means. go ahead and ignore canon. You yourself stated whats in novels are canon
Originally posted by Advent

Your quote is nothing more than showing us that Darth Vader can contend against droids, who do not have precognition.
Droids which have are faster, stronger than a human being aand programed with every form


Originally posted by Advent

Well, flip the chairs and call me a cowboy! Seriously, it's not as impressive as you'd like to think, and doesn't prove that pre-suit Anakin is the lesser in saber ability (because he's not).
So by your point of view, vader actually got suckier rather than improved?

Originally posted by Advent

Changes what exactly? Nothing you provided proves the latter Darth Vader is a better duelist than the former Anakin Skywalker. Nor does it disprove that Anakin would decimate Darth Vader like he did to Count Dooku (possibly worse). Actually i did, By the things he acomplished, his "slow clunky ass" skills caused him to kill huge groups of wookies, Decimate any remaining jedi in the 19 year gap.
Originally posted by Advent

George Lucas says that Vader's fight against Old Ben Kenobi was a "hard fight to fight". How do you actually expect Vader to hold Anakin off for say, the time Obi-Wan did in RotS,

Do you expect a hard fight to be zomg!! its so cool! wow somersaults!!!!!
No we cant. Muay thai is the most offensive and brutal form of boxing, is it flashy? No it isnt
Originally posted by Advent

when even Count Dooku (who can easily contend with, and possibily match Vader in lightsaber skill) couldn't, and when he was having a "hard fight" against Obi-Wan in ANH? An Obi-Wan who Lucas describes as "an old man" and "old Jedi", and an Obi-Wan who - in regards to lightsaber combat - is probably a league below his RotS incarnation (who Anakin is better than). Again the "hard fight" Looks pathetic when vader dueled an inferior: Luke skywalker,
Again being in a hard fight doesnt mean you have to be flashy
Originally posted by Advent


Furthermore, he gets put on his ass (legit) by his son, who isn't even "as skillful or acrobatic as the young Jedi of the prequels". Plus, we have the end all, be all on the matter. A direct statement in the Ep. VI Lore, which states Anakin is greater, and Darth Vader's skill is "seriously hampered" (in other words, he sucks in comparison).

Because the emperor ordered vader not to kill luke but turn him? Because that vader underestimated him? Or prehaps because he mirrored vaders own form again and proves its effectiveness over its on practitionar

"Your Anakin's dead, son. Accept it.

I think the only way that Vader could beat Anakin in a saber duel, is if Anakin loses his cool to a degree we haven't seen. Vader is very much in control of his emotions, fear, hatred, and anger...IF he can get Anakin to the point where he's being controlled by emotions instead of vice versa, then Vader has a slight chance. I say slight, but Vader is one who can very easily capitalize on a slight chance. However, 99.8 percent of the time, Anakin take Vader is dueling, and curbstomps Luke into a pile of Jar Jar's fecal matter.

Actually anakin is far more emotional than vader is, and vader knows all of his weakneses, he was once anakin you know and he knows everything to beat anakin in lightsaber combat, Dont even talk about the force vader would curbstomp him there

Kadesh...did you even READ my post? lol Please re-read it and then get back to me.

lol sorry, yes i did.

vader rather got much better with his saber skills since his got burnt.

I like that arguement subjeckt, Advent is assuming anakin wins by default

Originally posted by Kadesh
vader rather got much better with his saber skills since his got burnt.


Bullsh*t.

whoa, hold on...I didn't say that Vader got better, and I'm not saying either wins by default...what i AM saying, is that IF Vader can get Anakin shook, then he has a chance to beat him, what with his imposing size and enhanced strength. However, Anakin will take out mech Vader 99.8 percent of the time, not by default, but by having higher skill levels...not in the force, but in saber skills. Vader had to customize his form due to his suit, it wasn't out of initiative or willingness to further the art of saber dueling, but because he had to. Anakin was more than proficient with his form and studied the other forms (obviously since he meshed them as Vader) and has better flexibility, dexterity, and agility. Those aren't the only reasons he wins, but a big part of it. Vader had to customize to be able to work with the immobility of his suit, he didn't have those restrictions as Anakin.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So? Vader had two decades to imrpvoe and adept.

He can't "improve" on certain things. For example, he'll never be as agile as he was formerly, nor as fast. And he had a hard time keeping up with Ben Kenobi because of his injuries, that doesn't tell you anything?

Well, if it doesn't, I'll let you in on the secret: he sucks ass .

And uhh, what do you mean? Because he has time that somehow means he can become better than before? Not when you factor in the vast handicaps he received.



No, because Anakin - with a lightsaber - is better than Darth Vader by a decent margin, therefore whatever Vader does, I have absolutely no doubts that Anakin could do it. Better, probably.

But as I'm curious to see what the almighty Vader (who we have a definitive confirmation is the lesser in dueling) has over Anakin, do tell, what has he accomplished with a blade that Anakin couldn't?

(Hint: The answer is nothing.)



Irrelevant. When was I arguing the Force again? Oh? Never?



Such as? Prove up.

Keep in mind, you said he's accomplished things greater than Anakin could do. Not "has done". Even if that were the case, feat wars are irrelevant since Anakin's dueling prowess surpasses Vader's.

@ Kadesh:



All Jedi possess precognition. So, I don't see how Anakin won't know likewise.

Even if you consider that "Vader knows how Anakin works", it doesn't actually give such a substantial advantage, as you would believe. Anakin is also faster, more flexible, and far more graceful than Vader could ever hope to be.

Those advantages more than make up for what Darth Vader has over him in lightsaber combat.



Hey, Mr. Irrelevant misdirection, next time respond to the point at hand and not tout off some other, random bullshit.

Who cares if he combined forms? Like I said, it doesn't change the fact that he's still not as skilled, fast, or flexible as Anakin.

And, by the way, do you have any actual proof that no other lightsaber wielder borrowed from all the forms and infused them? Didn't think so. Absence of proof is not proof of absence, and I highly doubt Darth Vader is the only person ever to do such, especially when we've had people actually master all forms of combat.

Not that it really matters, because none of this is relevant to the discussion, since it doesn't prove he's actually as good.



When did I "ignore canon", care to point that one out? I think you'll find it's impossible, because all I meant by that is "the source doesn't matter, seeing as it proves nothing".

If I "ignored canon" as you declare, then I wouldn't have responded, or if I did, it would've been something along the lines of: "Oh, yeah? RoDV isn't canon, so who cares?".

But, I didn't. Try again, chump change!



Droids which cannot predict moves, you mean? Yeah, that kind.

What's truly friggin' hil-ar-i-ous is that Jedi padawans are seen training with these type of droids, lol!

If you've ever played Jedi Academy, you'd know that. On Yavin, the Jedi Praxeum uses the same type of droid, the ASP-19, that Darth Vader had. So, I don't find that quote impressive. More like a steaming pile of Sith. Just like Darth Vader.

Try again, chump change!



It's not "from my point of view", because it's fact. If anything, it's LucasFilms official standing on the matter (which is canon). Anakin Skywalker is greater in lightsaber combat pre-suit than he is post-suit.

Now, obviously Darth Vader improved from the time of RoDV, however, the quote that makes reference to Darth Vader being a pile of shit compared to Anakin is in regards to the OT, so therefore he still doesn't hold a candle to his past incarnation.



No, because if you did, I would've conceded. I'm fairly certain that if someone like me is arguing against you, you're wrong.



...

All I can is "ellipsis", and this: feat wars. And this: none of that changes the fact he's still not as skillful as Anakin. And this: how does any of that prove he's more skilled? And this: Oops, it doesn't.



In the movies it is, but that's besides the point, Ong-Bak.

What you failed to take into consideration is that it was a hard fought battle because Darth Vader is a "crippled half-droid". He had a hard time contending with an "old man", because of such.

Again, what you said is irrelevant to the point. Try again, chump change!



What? I think I'm only going to parrot one line in response to this, because this point clearly has nothing to do with what I wrote, nor does it even make sense.

When have I even implied that a "hard fight" needs to be extravagant? Oh, wait. I didn't. All I implied was that it was a hard fought battle.



Not really. He only underestimated him in the beginning, afterwards he got dropped like he was hot.

"Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even.

Vader watched Luke. His boy was powerful, stronger than he'd imagined.

For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel." (Return of the Jedi, Ch. 8.)

Yep, that sure as hell seems like he was underestimating his son. So much that he had a thought of his son beating him! Keep in mind, this was right after Luke kicked his ass down the stairs, not towards the end.

Seems you're a tad bit (completely) wrong. Try again, chump change!



Or perhaps, Darth Vader's form and dueling skills aren't as good as you make them out to be?

Yeah, I'll go with that for $500, Alex.



You fail at quoting. You also fail at spelling (I caught it before you edited it). And, not surprisingly, you fail at trying to pull off a copy.

I think it's time to kill yourself now.

"And so it is...



Wow, you're clearly an idiot with no regard for official word on the matter. For reference:

"In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess." (Episode VI Lore.)

QED, noob.



By default? How so? I've actually got reasonings behind what I wrote, unlike you, who just posts feat wars, and expects people to accept you as anything even remotely resembling an able debater.

I'm actually insulted, when have I ever assumed anything "by default"? I consider all factors, son. That's why I trample on your arguments like they were the ground I walk on.

Originally posted by Advent
He can't "improve" on certain things. For example, he'll never be as agile as he was formerly, nor as fast. And he had a hard time keeping up with Ben Kenobi because of his injuries, that doesn't tell you anything?

Well, if it doesn't, I'll let you in on the secret: he sucks ass .

And uhh, what do you mean? Because he has time that somehow means he can become better than before? Not when you factor in the vast handicaps he received.
Ben Kenobi is also described by George as the strongest of the good guys as of ANH in the commentary, does that tell you anything?
and Vade'rs had time to compensate for his weakness. We've seen him kill people who were masters as of the PT and pretty damn fine ones at that.
The loss of agility or speed- and did you see Crimson Empire? tell me that's not agility- isn't much to a good fighter who's learned how to compensate. Vader's had time to learn how to fight against more agile and faster opponents and temper his skill and adapt.


We do have a definitive confirmation there? Luca ssays he's slower and his potential is lessened....so?
With a blade, while still getting used to the suit, he bested Roan Shryne and held his own against numerous Jedi knights and masters.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ben Kenobi is also described by George as the strongest of the good guys as of ANH in the commentary, does that tell you anything?

No, not really.

So, because he's stronger than a smuggler, a farmboy who got his ass zapped by a droid, a snobby princess, and let's not forget, a walking carpet, it's supposed to indicate anything?

Lol! Every single one of the aforementioned would get ripped to shreds by the Jedi of the prequels. What the hell is your point here?



No, he hasn't. You cannot build upon things which are impossible to build upon.

He will never be nearly as fast, nearly as agile, or nearly as graceful:

"Vader's legs and arms were artificial, and he would never be able to summon lightning or leap about like the Jedi had been fond of doing." (Rise of Darth Vader, Ch. 21.)

He just doesn't hold a candle in acrobatics. What we also know is that Luke himself was more agile and acrobatic than Vader, yet he's not even as "acrobatic as the young Jedi of the prequels".



And? How does this even begin to prove he's better than his former self? Who annihilated the likes of Count Dooku, and Cin Drallig?

Yes, he killed several Jedi Knights. And only like, three are even noteworthy in the grand scale: An'ya Kuro, Tsui Choi, and Roan Shryne.

But, how does that mean he doesn't suck ass in comparison? Seeing as Anakin Skywalker would destroy those listed above?



Wow, I guess he's as flexible as a monkey in the movies, too. Seeing as when he falls he does back flips.

Really, though, big deal. He's not nearly as agile as he was prior. Swinging around on a sword really isn't "all that" in comparison to what we see other Jedi do.

Furthermore, he doesn't display any of those skills in the movies because either: a) he can't or b) he has a helluva' lot of trouble doing them. That's why the duel against Ben Kenobi is so slow, it's because it's was hard to fight for the both of them, as they are "old Jedi".



You're right, he's fought against some fast opponents and won. However, I don't see where he's beaten someone who is: more skilled, faster, more agile, and more graceful. And the three latter by, at the least, a league.

Be a dear now, and point that one out for me, will you? I think you'll have a hard time doing such, considering it's never happened.



Yeah, Lightsnake. Perhaps if you equipped your spectacles, you'd see this:

"In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess." (Episode VI Lore.)

That is in direct regards to the movie era differences. Darth Vader in the OT is a peice of shit compared to his former self, and Anakin's skill is surpasses that of Vader's in the OT.



And that he's not as skilled, and his lightsaber "prowess" (skill) is "seriously hampered" (sucks ass, limited).



To quote you: "...so?"

Really now, none of that proves his handling with a lightsaber is better than Anakin's. Feat Wars, the bane of the fanboy. They do you no good. In fact, it would just say to the commoner that he must've been that damn good beforehand.

Although, it would also seem that indicate that he'd be better as time went on, we know that the skill he shows previously is better than what we see later, thus my position stands.

And? The Padawans purposely had the droids set on a low level



Are the insults necessary? In that same game, Kyle Katarn states that had the droid that Jaden Korr fought been set to duel with Luke not the students Jaden would have been ass raped. The droids are still capable of killing Jedi, so your point on the droids being shit is really you know, wrong.

The fact that Post DE Luke even used them to train with as even a workout is proof enough of the machines skill. Let alone Vader who programed them with 100+ combat forms, they out numbered him and he still tooled them around.

Maul.

1. Yes, the insults are necessary (not really, but what does it matter?). I don't see you raising a question when debating Nebaris, so why exactly would you even mention that?

2. I concede on that point then, but still, it doesn't change anything.

Advent is absolutely right here. There are certain things ANakin cannot do and will never be able to do and/or improve on. His ROTS self would destroy him in a saber duel. The only thing Vader have is years to learn more force abilities.

I'm only stating facts when I "debate" with him. And yes it is irrelevant, but the insults after every post, especially when he was only posting his point (be it wrong or right is regardless) not in a dickish/idiotic/fanboyish way as Nebaris/Planet/Dessel/Kas'im/Sexyback does that makes no sense what so ever (Freedon Naad = Chosen One for example)



Not that it was meant too, I was just pointing it out.

Dude, Freedon Nadd is the chosen one, don't be silly Papa Bear.

Sure buddy!

I'm your buddy!

Oh yeah! My bestest friend!

Please explain how Nadd is the Chosen One when Lucas has outright stated that Anakin is.

Kadesh, you're going about this debate wrong. It seems as though you're just trying to prove that Vader is good...that's not the issue. The issue, is that no one can bring up a single point that Vader is better at saber dueling than Anakin. Saying that Vader tooled those droids, in no way means that he's better than Anakin, as Anakin would most likely be able to do the same thing. Everything that Vader has been able to do, Anakin has been able to do. Thats what Advent's trying to say. It doesn't matter what Vader can do, it matters what he can do better than Anakin, which, when it comes to saber techniques, is nothing.

Vader's only chance at beating Anakin, is in a full out fight, and if he can make Anakin lose is cool to a degree where he makes a monumental mistake, and can capitalize on it. Other than that, Vader is gone, and you know how much i like Vader, but he can't win this one (at least in just a saber duel).

EDIT

Advent, do you even need to include your debates with insults?

Originally posted by Kadesh
Advent, do you even need to include your debates with insults?

No, it's not a necessity to my arguments. As much has been obvious since I first arrived.

I do apologize though, if I seem overly rude and/or acting like a jackass, but you really shouldn't take light insults (or insults at all) on an internet forum to heart.

Don't worry, this is nothing compared to when she's serious...I still recall our earlier arguments

No worries we squashed it in the PM, She just wants to get her points of views out strait forward.

O hell i wouldnt mess with the goddess when she gets serious, she like whooped master starbucks arse hard