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This is Vodo in his prime, he gets his staff and full rest after each battle and his wounds, if any, get healed as well. Who stops him?
1. AOTC Kenobi
2. ROTS Aayla Secura
3. ROTS Kit Fisto
4. Obsession Asajj Ventress
5. Darth Maul
6. ROTS Obi-Wan
7. ROTS Count Dooku
8. ROTS Darth Vader
9. ROTS Sidious and two magnaguards
10. He makes it

Vodo breezes through 1 and 2, 3, 4 and 5 are a little difficult but he definately beats all of them. ROTS Kenobi has a chance at beating Vodo but I'm thinking that Vodo could probably take him, then Dooku could probably beat Vodo, I'd say there's a 60% chance Dooku kills Vodo. If Vodo makes it past Dooku then he loses at vader unless Vader makes an incredibly huge mistake, and there's no way in hell he'd take Sidious and the guards, Sidious alone would do him in for sure. So I say he probably stops at 8 but could possibly make it to 9.

Maul is "one of the most dangerous Sith apprentices in history", his resilence is amazing - even by megaForce user standards - and he is a nearly unparalleled fighter. I'd say Vodo would have an extremely hard fight, to be honest.

Ventress'd be a pain in the ass, too, and she also has a chance of killing him. Obi-Wan? Same. But he does not make it past Dooku. He gets owned.

I say he makes it to 9. His thoughts in JA (he states that he couldn't bring himself to harm Kun), as well as on panel evidence (Vodo handles most of Kun's saber strikes perfectly until he switches it up and use his saber staff, and you can constantly see signs of frustration on Kun's face) seem to indicate that he was almost a match for Exar Kun in saber combat, and given how incredible Kun was, as well as the fact that his style was very much alien to Vodo, I'd say that's pretty awesome. The duel was also described as 'furious' and 'epic', implying it was somewhat close. However Sidious would likely own his ass with the force, so I don't see him making it past here.

Nothing even remotely suggests that Vodo was better than an average Jedi, like sylvar. I highly HIGHLY doubt he would get past Maul.

Because he wouldn't. He goes down at four. On a good day.

From From Wookieepedia:
"Vodo and Kun fought each other, but when Kun revealed his double-bladed lightsaber, Vodo could not hold him off, and was slain by his former pupil. "
So can he pass through Maul?

He definitely passes through Maul, imho. Maul doesn't really compare with the top tier of lightsaber duelists, whereas Vodo can hold his own against one of them (Exar Kun).

It is the point that he seems couldn't hold off "double-bladed lightsaber"...

Maul's no Exar, though, and Vodo put up a pretty good fight, despite the unique style.

Pretty good fight... meaning losing in one swing?

I don't think Vodo makes it past ROTS Obi-Wan. However if he somehow does, he loses to ROTS VAder.

Originally posted by allfg
He definitely passes through Maul, imho. Maul doesn't really compare with the top tier of lightsaber duelists, whereas Vodo can hold his own against one of them (Exar Kun).

Except Vodo can't hold his own against Exar Kun, and it's unlikely he can hold his own against one of the deadliest lightsaber duelists in SW history.

Asajj has a double lightsaber and was giving a beat down to (and could have killed) Anakin as a Jedi Knight. No way Vodo lives past her. Also, Kit is far from an average Jedi and has impressed me a lot more than Vodo has, so, Vodo could go down there.

So, just what has Vodo done to prove himself a worthy combatant, or that he could even beat AOTC Obi Wan?

The first time Vodo and Exar fought Vodo was winning for a while, Exar wasn't a beats then but he was still strong, definitely stronger than Maul.

How aboutcha prove that, Darlin'.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
How aboutcha prove that, Darlin'.
He pwns Crado, beats Sylvar and then, despite getting hit by Sylvar, is able to defeat Vodo (barely). That puts Kun above Maul, and Vodo nearly beat Kun. He'd definitely beat Maul.

Actually...

How is Exar even above Maul? We haven't seen Kun fight anyone even remotely impressive except for Vodo, the old past his prime crab who was using a stick and was more then likely fighting half-heartedly.

Yeah... about that Exar Kun.

Darth Maul "mastered the lightsaber," and seeing as how Vodo was beat with one swing of Kun's double bladed saber, I doubt he would hold off against Maul. The same thing could be applied to Asajj.

Are you trying to put a Padawan above Maul?

I agree with escape. Vodo goes down at Maul, and if he makes the extremely hard fight he goes down at Dooku definitely

Originally posted by Blaxican
Actually...

How is Exar even above Maul? We haven't seen Kun fight anyone even remotely impressive except for Vodo, the old past his prime crab who was using a stick and was more then likely fighting half-heartedly.

Yeah... about that Exar Kun.
Kun had a stalemate with Ulic before obtaining his double-bladed lightsaber and Ulic is beyond remotely impressive. He beat Mandalore, with a weapon that he had never used before, while on unfamiliar and uneven terrain, without a mount when Mandalore did have a mount. For a while he even turned off his saber and fought unarmed and dodged all of Mandalore's attacks. If I am not mistaken, Mandalore is pretty much the same rank as Jango Fett was (Jango wasn't called Mandalore but he pretty much was). That's impressive. And the first time that Kun beat Vodo Vodo wasn't fighting half-heartedly.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Darth Maul "mastered the lightsaber," and seeing as how Vodo was beat with one swing of Kun's double bladed saber, I doubt he would hold off against Maul. The same thing could be applied to Asajj.

Are you trying to put a Padawan above Maul?
Yes, I am, surely Anakin in his prime as a Padawan would beat Maul so it's not impossible for a Padawan to be above Maul or anything.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Kun had a stalemate with Ulic before obtaining his double-bladed lightsaber and Ulic is beyond remotely impressive. He beat Mandalore, with a weapon that he had never used before, while on unfamiliar and uneven terrain, without a mount when Mandalore did have a mount. For a while he even turned off his saber and fought unarmed and dodged all of Mandalore's attacks. If I am not mistaken, Mandalore is pretty much the same rank as Jango Fett was (Jango wasn't called Mandalore but he pretty much was). That's impressive. And the first time that Kun beat Vodo Vodo wasn't fighting half-heartedly.




Could you post the scan of Kun stalemating Ulic? I don't remember that part for some reason...

As for Mandalor, if he is on par with Jango then that means that he could be topped by Aotc Kenobi... still doesn't speak very highly of him. Also could you post the scan with Exar turning his lightsaber off?

And as for the "first time" they fought I'm assuming your talking about after he got slashed on the face? I doubt Vodo was going "all out". He was fighting to teach his Padawan a lessen, not kill him or injure him.

Originally posted by Blaxican
We haven't seen Kun fight anyone even remotely impressive except for Vodo

This would seem absolutely correct, except for the fact that you excluded his duel with Ulic Qel-Droma, which was a complete stalemate:

Originally posted by Advent
Then you'd be wrong. They were sheer equals during their battle in DLotS, as described by the omniscient narrator:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6656/ulickunmastersgf7.th.png

"Both Jedi are master swordsman -- neither can claim an advantage with the lightsaber!", which clearly indicates that, indeed, neither would be able to overcome the other.

To go along with that, there are a few excerpts which cite that there'd be no winner, or at the least, "their battle might have gone on for hours" (Darkside Sourcebook, p. 76). That, along with, "they were too evenly matched for one to claim the advantage" (paraphrased from DSSB).

That'd be the same Ulic, who's got a list of achievements under his belt:

Originally posted by Advent
And this is Exar when he had already gotten his Sith Amulet by this point (as had Ulic), and had already showed us what the amulet is capable of (disintegrating Massassi, blasting through a Sith Wyrm and temple rock, and destroyed Nadd). Exar had also studied under Nadd's spirit, and taken several scrolls from his tomb. As well, he'd already gotten Sadow's teachings, and also made the sphere that trapped the Massassi and drained their life energies.

As well, he was described as master lightsaber duelist, but enough about his stalemate of Exar Kun (who, at that point, I'd put above Malak and the SF anyways).

He was also the only Jedi out of his party to withstand King Ommin's darkside energies (that consumed Arca, and disrupted Nomi):

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7298/energyulicdh1.th.jpg

And he also killed Warb Null, who cut off Cay's arm, and apparently has powers that disrupt the Jedi train of thought or something to that effect:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3189/ulickillsrb8.th.jpg

As well, he also owned the Beast Riders who had weapons described twice as "very powerful", and owned the beasts of Dxun:

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5357/morethanamatchim4.th.jpg



Ulic does have a "grasp over the Force that is great" (described as such when he battles Mandalore) though.

As well, he was able to fend off Sylvar, who was an enraged Jedi master, feeding into the darkside of the Force, for an unimaginable amount of time, even after being cut off from the Force nearly ten years ago, and more than likely out of practice. This feat is impressive in itself, due to the fact that he had absolutely no precognition, or assistance with the Force, whereas Sylvar had both, and her attack was fueled by the ferocity of the darkside (which increases power, and strength, obviously; see: TPM, RotJ, RotS), as previously mentioned.

Indeed, you probably haven't seen much, due to the fact your blind as a bat. But, for the rest of the world who has perfect vision, we'll note the fact that he was, even during DLotS, sheer equals with Ulic in bladed combat. Try equipping your spectacles next time.



"Past his prime"? Where do you see any evidence to suggest this? Actually, forget that question, seeing as it's already been established your vision is faulty.

Jokes aside, nothing indicates he was over his limit. Yoda was 800 plus years old during the PT, yet he was still the most powerful Jedi up to that point. Just because he was 600 odd years of age, doesn't necessarily mean he was "past his prime". Although, if you want to supply proof, by all means, do so. However, trying to downplay Vodo (and Kun's feat), though, is a mistake.



Irrelevant, insomuch as the fact that he's been stated to have "wielded a common quarterstaff in combat as effectively as most Jedi used a lightsaber" (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, p. 102), would lead one to believe just that. That's he's not at any disadvantage.



Irrelevant, insomuch as the fact he was stated as " no match for Exar Kun's double-bladed lightsaber and deep reserve of dark side power" (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, p. 102), and "not having a chance" (Darkside Sourcebook, p. 78), would lead one to believe that whether or not he wasn't giving his all - it wouldn't have change the outcome, and he'd still be slaughtered by Kun.



Exar didn't battle Mandalore the Indomitable, Ulic did. And he did so with the specifications darthsith mentioned, which gave Mandalore a huge advantage:

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7655/graspoftheforcess3.th.png
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/9775/betterfate2dog1.th.png

Regardless of the benefits, Ulic took the machine out with casual ease, and then manages to defeat Mandalore without his lightsaber, as you can see in the last scan ("I can defeat you, regardless of the weapon, Mandalore." -- he dueled unarmed for a few panels). He used a ****ing Mandalorian battle axe to conquer him (obviously, a foreign weapon to him, whereas it was common among the Mandalorians).

Thanks for the scans Were the hell have you been anyhoo? You don't have a... *gasp* LIFE do you?

What the hell is this "a life" you speak of?

not sure. However, I'd like to note that I didn't read any of your post. I just looked at the scans

There's also the fact that Exar Kun was able to break through Vodo's stick, which could not only withstand the cutting power of a lightsaber, but was also directly stated as being stronger than one. That display of strength is probably the greatest we've ever seen in Star Wars, I mean think about it: he was able to generate enough kinetic damage with an object that has no weight to break through something that could withstand its cutting power. That's incredible.

Here's some stuff on Ulic that Advent missed out:

http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=127

He was able to blast both Cay and Nomi back some pretty nice distance with waves of darkside energies purely by shouting, so that was without even focusing the attack.

http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=144

He was able to push Nomi away and weaken her with a sith amulet, and he seemed to only be using just a portion of his power.

http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=152

Here, Aleema can see that Ulic is 'rippling with darkside energy... more power than all her sith magic has given her.'

http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=6&page=113
http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=6&page=114
http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=6&page=115

Even after having been cut off from the force, he was still able to vanish to the spiritual plane upon death, which is something only a true jedi master can usually achieve.

http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=3&page=005

He was insanely quick and agile too, and this is when he's just a padawan, and before turning to the darkside and obtaining a sith amulet.

5 would be hard.

He will stop at 6. And even if he manages to beat Obi-Wan then 7 is the last one.

Dooku will defeat him.

He loses at Dooku, The Man.

Jango is the best Mandalore.

And he wasn't beaten by AOTC Kenobi.

And he wouldn't have been beaten by Mace if it hadn't been for the whole being trampled bit. Well, he would have lasted longer, at least.

I'd say Vodo makes it to Dooku at the minumum. He probably wins there too. The guy's experince comes closer to that of Yoda than anyone with the possible exception of Odan. Also, he did hown his own against Exar for quite some time. Yes, he did lose in the end, but so would any group in this gauntlet if they went against Exar. Also, Vodo was intrusted with training Exar, who the Order must have known had a ridiculous amount of Force Potential. For all the reasons stated above I think he make it at least to Sidious and probably wins there too.

Agreed, and to add on to the whole being Exar's teacher thing, the teachings contained in his holocron were considered some of the most valuable pieces of Jedi History by Mikal (historian) in KotOR 3, so in terms of knowledge, he's likely right up there (along with Yoda and Odan).

Originally posted by Count Makashi
He loses at Dooku, The Man.

The hell... You;re trying to say that Jango could have beaten Mace? Lol, no, AOTC Kenobi was on par with him and that was when he was trying not to kill Jango, AND Jango had Boba helping him. Mace is not only quite a ways above AOTC Kenobi, he's even above ROTS Kenobi, and Kenobi got quite a bit stronger between films.

On par with Jango? Eh... It wasn't even much of a fight, both lost their weapons if I remember and then Jango nearly fell. THat's about it. All Kenob did was block some shots and get snagged by Jango's grappling line.

What a titanic clash.



Agree here.

Vodo Siosk-Baas was one of the more powerful Jedi masters -- after all, the guy wields a staff, and augments it, *using the Force*, so that it could match lightsaber blades. And then he dueled one of the most deadly Dark Side wielders in history with it. That's pretty awesome, and that's not taking into account any of his more relevant feats.

He doesn't make it all the way through, but he gets most of the way. I'd say that it could go either way at eight, but that he definitely loses at nine. Darth Sidious is too powerful for him, though the fight still might last a while.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I'd say Vodo makes it to Dooku at the minumum. He probably wins there too. The guy's experince comes closer to that of Yoda than anyone with the possible exception of Odan. Also, he did hown his own against Exar for quite some time. Yes, he did lose in the end, but so would any group in this gauntlet if they went against Exar. Also, Vodo was intrusted with training Exar, who the Order must have known had a ridiculous amount of Force Potential. For all the reasons stated above I think he make it at least to Sidious and probably wins there too.

Oh, PLEASE! He's not even touching one of the most powerful Jedi masters in histor.y

'Held his own?' Right, he held his own against a padawan...and was toyed with and destroyed by a Sith Lord.

and no, not 'everyone' in this gauntlet would lose fi they went up against Exar.

Really, glentract, how pathetic is this? You ahve any evidence to back up this fanboy crap? Any top tier PT Jedi would turn Vodo into crabcakes. "He makes it up to Sidious and wins."
Bullshit. Sorry. What'd Vodo do that was ever impressive...? Oh, right, he beat a padawan-and lost shortly later....and he can make a STICK saber resistant, OMG!

Maul slaughters him. Period. Vodo's just not a top tier, and this was shown by our last 'debate' at EoD. Which was really you continuing bleating out Vodo's praises without an ounce of proof

If he magically makes it to Maul, Maul saber rapes him.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I'd say Vodo makes it to Dooku at the minumum. He probably wins there too. The guy's experince comes closer to that of Yoda than anyone with the possible exception of Odan. Also, he did hown his own against Exar for quite some time. Yes, he did lose in the end, but so would any group in this gauntlet if they went against Exar. Also, Vodo was intrusted with training Exar, who the Order must have known had a ridiculous amount of Force Potential. For all the reasons stated above I think he make it at least to Sidious and probably wins there too.

Com on, he even defeats Sidious, the strongest Sith ever, while the strongest Jedi(Yoda) couldn't, don't tell me your a Vodo fanboy.

There are all of four people who could defeat Darth Sidious, in a full, fair (not being supported by other people) match: Yoda, Mace Windu (only due to Vaapad, and only against ROTS Sidious, no later form), Anakin Skywalker, and Luke Skywalker. There's no doubt that Vodo is going to lose there; Darth Sidious is significantly more powerful than Exar Kun.

However, he has demonstrated sufficient ability to progress far elsewhere. While Maul may have been one of the "deadliest Sith apprentices in history", he was still only an apprentice, and it is evident that other Sith at other times have demonstrated greater ability, whether in the Force or in saber combat. Even if Vodo could not prevail in the latter, he has a good chance in the former, as Maul hasn't demonstrated particularly amazing force power.

I just have to correct this:

DARTH SIDIOUS: "This is an unexpected move for her. It's too aggressive.. Lord Maul, be mindful."

The Maul being one of the deadliest Sith Apprentices in history quote is referring to how strong he was as a Padawan. But he is stronger even by TPM, by which time he is a Sith Lord.

I just have to correct this:

Originally posted by darthsith19
The Maul being one of the deadliest Sith Apprentices in history quote is referring to how strong he was as a Padawan. But he is stronger even by TPM, by which time he is a Sith Lord.

No, it's accounting for his entire life as a Sith, which even goes up to the point of his death on Naboo.

Firstly, the Sith don't even have the rank of "padawan". Secondly, Darth Vader in RotJ is still an apprentice, as was Darth Tyranus in RotS, they were both serving under a Sith master, hence "apprentice".

The Sith of Bane's Order both take on the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith, but that still doesn't mean they disregard distinguishing master from apprentice, as much has been noted in the Darkside Sourcebook, among other various sources.

So, you're wrong; although, his point was rather absurd to begin with.

Good point, I concede, but Maul was considered fully trained, right?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, PLEASE! He's not even touching one of the most powerful Jedi masters in history.

I don't see where "being compareable to person X in terms of knowledge" means "being on par with them". Vodo's holocron was sited as one of the greatest source for knowledge one could possibly attain. I think for a reason.

By the way: How many people on that list are capable of resisting a "Wall of Light" attack ? Might be hard to fight a Jedi without having force powers...or did I miss the "this is melee combat only" ?



If you want to get that polemic, I could say that Maul didn't manage to hold his own against a padawan. And being toyed and destroyed by the second most powerful (possibly) Sith Lord in history, at least one of the most powerful ones ? Shame on him for that.



Sidious with two magnaguards might take Kun. But the rest ? I don't think so.



Vodo would die against Sidious. I'm pretty sure there. But the rest ?



Oh really ? Did I somehow miss that debate ? If you want to start like this I'd say that Vodo waves his hand and then Maul stands there, wondering why he can't use the force any longer. By the way: When did you see a force user with several centuries of age that was not Jedi Council material at the very least ? As Vodo stands in one line with people that tooled Ancient Sith (Odan) and survived force attacks capable of killing the life of an entire planet (Thon) I guess "not top tier" isn't the right description.

I don't think Vodo makes it past AOTC Kenobi. He could beat Aayla and Kit Fisto, but not Kenobi. TPM Kenobi was good enough to hold his own against Darth Maul, I don't see him losing to a Vodo by AOTC.

Nothing suggests Vodo is exceptional in saber combat.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I don't see where "being compareable to person X in terms of knowledge" means "being on par with them". Vodo's holocron was sited as one of the greatest source for knowledge one could possibly attain. I think for a reason.
I don't see where Vodo is being able to 'probably take Dooku.'
Dooku's knowledge was amazing? Excellent, I'm sure it was. This means he can take on one of the finest saber duelists and most powerful jedi masters?

Yes, and this would've helped a lot against Exar Kun, no? Or did Vodo instinctively know that Kun would resist it?

I also miss where Vodo used the 'wall of light' in anything but a temporary measure against someone without about five other Jedi to back him up. Especially against someone who is prepared and more than powerful.

The circumstances are a tad different, are they not? It has literally no bearing. Unlike Vodo, Maul has actual, on table evidence going for his power.
And Vodo held his own against the Padawan;. That was it. That he was able to hold his own at that point means very little. when it really counted, how did Vodo do?
Maul did manage to get the better of Obi-wan, recall.
Also, if 'holding your own against padawan Exar' and 'dying horribly to Sith Lord' Exar are your only credentials, how do we decide you're extremely powerful from that?


Yes, hence the 'everyone.'


Against Maul? Dooku? Vader?
I'd say some of the rest, yes


'Waves his hand?'
I'm sorry, did I miss something? Last I recall, not only can the attack be resisted, but Vodo's only ever been shown to temporarily imprison someone with the aid of about five other Jedi, with a sudden attack mentioned as a 'complete last resort.'


And btw, what Ancient Sith did Odan 'tool?' Who, exactly, was left to fight that was so powerful? And where did Vodo stand abreast of someone like Thon? Thon was rather seperate from the council.

And yes, there was a debate at EoD. because I was arguing with Glentract for pages on why Vodo was never shown to be impressive, especially when compared to people like Yoda and Mace.
He had all of two battles against Exar, a minor confrontation with Freedon Nadd, and ganged up on Ulic.

Also, I could name quite a few Jedi of some centuries not on any council. Master Fay comes to mind instantly.

I'm not seeing how Vodo is going to be 'effortlessly' dominating these people. Especially not Yoda's pupil, one of the most powerful Jedi in history who was even more powerful as a Sith Lord? How will he even 'probably' defeat Sidious? Or Anakin, who defeated Dooku himself? And took out Cin Drallig?

Just not seeing where this 'Vodo is so uber, he's the Yoda of his time,, the Jedi Grandmaster, can take most PT Jedi' stuff comes from.

Feel free to call me an idiot, but I have not yet seen this overwhelming proof of Vodo's uberpower. The fact that he managed to use the Force to transform his walking stick into a weapon that was 'more powerful' than a lightsaber is pretty damn impressive, but what the hell does that mean in relation to... well... anything? Perhaps I'm not seeing the whole picture here, but how could Vodo defeat Count Dooku, who was one of the "most powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history" and an "even greater Sith Lord"?

Furthermore, Nai, didn't you say that Sidious might take Exar Kun, and that Vodo would 'definately lose' to Sidious? It is obvious that Sidious is better than Dooku, but by miles and miles? Hardly. Nothing to me indicates that Vodo is nothing but the next special at the local Red Lobster if he goes up against Dooku.

LOL@ Red Lobster