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All out battle, takes place in the Trayus Academy throne room.

Just to start it off, I believe that The Exile could in fact beat Ulic, whether it be a saber duel or with the force. She has beaten more powerful foes then Ulic has (Atris, Sion, Traya) her experience compounded with her great saber and force skills would crush Ulic.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Just to start it off, I believe that The Exile could in fact beat Ulic, whether it be a saber duel or with the force. She has beaten more powerful foes then Ulic has (Atris, Sion, Traya) her experience compounded with her great saber and force skills would crush Ulic.

It is illogical to assume that because she's beaten more powerful foes than Ulic has, that she's more powerful. I can also counter that illogical assertion with my own stating that because Ulic tied Exar Kun, who is more powerful than any of the foes the Exile defeated, that Ulic can beat the exile. But lets not beat around the bush. As far as I'm concerned, the exile is a wound in the force, nothing more. She has not shown anything with a saber, and she hasn't proven to be more than an average force user with the fluke of being a wound. With that said, I believe Ulic absolutely rapes her with a saber. With the force though, Ulic hasn't shown much either so I don't care to argue that point.

I was only playing devils advocate to get the discussion started.




As far as her being "nothing more then a wound." is absolute BS, she throughout the course of KOTOR 2 proved herself time and time again. The masters during the training sessions were amazed by the speed at which she progressed not only that but in which the skill she wield the separate saber styles.

She's beaten Atris who had as the scene in the game projects dozens of Sith Holocrons which she has studied and grown more powerful from.

Lets look at The Exile while fighting on Trayus Academy where she on her own took out an Academy literally FULL of dark jedi and Sith troopers and beasts of Sith Alchemy, including one 4x's her size. Moreover each room in the academy was filled with at least 4 Dark Jedi. After she proceeds to kill about at LEAST 20 Dark Jedi she then fights the Sith Lord Sion whom she then beats 5 times in a row.

If that doesn't prove she's a beat I don't know what does.

After all this she then goes on to fight Traya who not only did she defeat in a straight up fight she then has to fight off three lightsabers drawn up, not limited by the sentient beings range of motion (meaning they have infinite angles to attack from) and she beats this.

But there's more as the masters noted on Dantooine after all the killing she's done through the galaxy she syphons the power from their deaths and adds it to her own, also she's leeched power from that of her teammates.

I'd REALLY like to see how Ulic can even hold a candle to that level of skill.

I could counter that argument by asking what Kun has done to make himself more impressive than Nihilus or Kreia? Outside of a few feats with his amulets, I would dare to say that Kun is a little overrated.

Secondly, arguing that the Exile is an average Jedi who lucked out with his/her wound, is like arguing that Superman is an average man who lucked out by living in a world with a yellow sun.

Basically, their individual abilities are connected to their natural gifts, the Exile (to his/her force bonding ability) and Superman (to his light absorbing cells and sub atomic density).

If the Exile didn't have the ability to form force bonds (consciously and subconsciously) with ease, then he/she wouldn't have been able to benefit from being a wound.

You basically have a character - in the Exile - that is given a reason for why they are powerful that goes beyond: "they were simply uber in the force".

Originally posted by Allankles
I could counter that argument by asking what Kun has done to make himself more impressive than Nihilus or Kreia? Outside of a few feats with his amulets, I would dare to say that Kun is a little overrated.
You mean besides being the most powerful person in the galaxy and learning everything from Naga Sadow's teachings including techniques that died with him? Nihilus had one maneuver due to him being a wound in the force and unfortunately for him, it didn't do much for him. Kreia also had a smaller version of that instakill but her power came from manipulation.


Except we have nothing to indicate that the Exile was more than an average Jedi who indeed lucked out by being a wound because it's how she killed Nihilus.



this has to do with what exactly? OH right, it's irrelevant.


Um..No

And AC, I'll get to your post tomorrow probably seeing as the majority of it deals with irrelevant gameplay mechanics and still doesn't explain how good the exile is with the force or the saber, while we know how good Ulic is.

Whatevea, the only gameplay mechanic is how fast she learns the saber styles. The numbers of the dark jedi however are not.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Whatevea, the only gameplay mechanic is how fast she learns the saber styles. The numbers of the dark jedi however are not.

what do you mean the number of dark jedi are not? That's like the argument about Revan supposedly defeating over 100 dark jedi, while having his companions with him. None of that is canon because you can't definitely tell me how many the exile kills. Also, I don't remember how killing a dark Jedi makes you uber powerful. We know Ulic stalemated Kun and then Sylvar without the force, so that alone would make him superior to the exile in saber combat.

Expect he didn't, and the number wasn't even close that but thats irrelevant since its not the same situation as the Exile did her feat by herself.




No, but I can assume she kills them since logically, when looking at the situation as a canon event(which it is) why would a bunch of Dark Jedi let some random chick just run by them?

And other then the fact that they attack you en mass as soon as you open the door, stealth belts and generators don't work.

And when removing this event from its gameplay context The Exile cannot take multiple lightsaber blows and shots from blasters thus she would have HAD to defend herself, and in all likely hood kill them.

But it doesn't matter if she killed them or not, all that matters is she immobilized a magnitude of Dark Jedi and Sith Troopers by herself.



I never said it did now did I? Its the NUMBER of how many DJ's she killed that makes it impressive compounded with the fact that after that she goes on to fight to Dark Lords of the Sith back to back, and win.




No. He didn't stalemate shit, he ran and occasionally parried a blow from an raging berserker.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You mean besides being the most powerful person in the galaxy and learning everything from Naga Sadow's teachings including techniques that died with him? Nihilus had one maneuver due to him being a wound in the force and unfortunately for him, it didn't do much for him. Kreia also had a smaller version of that instakill but her power came from manipulation.

And how do techniques that die with you help us to identify Kun as being more impressive than Nihilus and Kreia? And Nihilus knew more than one technique, and his power in the force was greater than Kun's anyway, so you don't have much of an argument here.

Kreia was also many times wiser, more knowledgeable and far more experienced in the force than Kun, so what did Kun ever do to be more impressive a Sith than Kreia? He was certainly a great fighter but beyond that he was quite lacking when compared to Kreia.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except we have nothing to indicate that the Exile was more than an average Jedi who indeed lucked out by being a wound because it's how she killed Nihilus.

And defeating three of the most powerful Sith in the Kotor timeline so far is something an average Jedi would accomplish, right? Using your logic, Kun was nothing but an average man (in fact quite lacking in common sense) who lucked out by being force sensitive.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy

this has to do with what exactly? OH right, it's irrelevant.

It's relevant, because it quite clearly indicates - as Kotor 2 indicated - that the Exile was always a unique Jedi with a unique connection to the force. Being called average - as you put it - in the context of Kotor 2 is quite meaningless given that an average Jedi wouldn't have achieved what the Exile achieved, before and during Kotor 2.

The fact that he's called average in the same game that he becomes a grand hero, only makes the Exile stand out among the elite Jedi heroes of SW because how many of those get called "average" in the middle of their grand adventures?"

Again, the whole average Jedi thing only has meaning in as far as character building is concerned (lending greater depth to the Vrook-Exile relationship) but is meaningless in the context of power or ability, because the Exile was quite clearly a Jedi of exceptional ability.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Um..No

Um.... Yes. Brilliant rebuttal, our posts would be so much shorter if this is how we chose to write our counter arguments. The authors chose to give a reason for the Exile's growth in power that went beyond a simple "he was so uber" explanation.

Trying to tribute power to the Exile because there were Dark Jedi in the academy is similar to trying to say the Luke, as of ANH, is extremely powerful because he was on a battle station with millions of Stormtroopers (That is an admittedly ridiculous scale to compare it to, though). He didn't fight every one.
How the Exile went about dealing with the Dark Jedi could be any number of ways. She could have used stealth, made them fight among themselves, or just lobbed grenades and ran. It could show some strength if she took on a group of random darksiders with an undefined amount of skill in single combat. Or it could show resourcefulness if she made them fight, or used grenades. Or it could show her good heart, in not wanting to kill (or her cowardice, or her realistic view, if she thought she couldn't beat them) if she used stealth. We just don't know.

Originally posted by Allankles
And how do techniques that die with you help us to identify Kun as being more impressive than Nihilus and Kreia? And Nihilus knew more than one technique, and his power in the force was greater than Kun's anyway, so you don't have much of an argument here.
More impressive? Kun's knowledge learned under Freedon Nadd and learning everything from Naga Sadow's teachings as opposed to Nihilus and Kreia who learned what, one maneuver on Malachor V? Nihilus didn't know more than one technique unless you count the basics, so you have yet another baseless assumption. Thanks for your opinion but without facts and logic(two things you fail to possess), you are wasting your time.


Wiser yes, knowledgable yes, more experienced yes, stronger? No. Yoda was also all of those things and more but could not defeat Sidious, so your point is moot, as always. This is beginning to look just like the Revan thread in which you were so horribly wtfpwned.




Good god, this is just like the Revan thread, your argument is dead. Saying that Kun was an average man who lucked out by being a force sensitive can apply to every force sensitive in the SW galaxy, dumbass. That was probably the dumbest statement ever made on this forum, and after that I don't think I need to continue arguing with you, you're beyond help.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Trying to tribute power to the Exile because there were Dark Jedi in the academy is similar to trying to say the Luke, as of ANH, is extremely powerful because he was on a battle station with millions of Stormtroopers (That is an admittedly ridiculous scale to compare it to, though). He didn't fight every one.
How the Exile went about dealing with the Dark Jedi could be any number of ways. She could have used stealth, made them fight among themselves, or just lobbed grenades and ran. It could show some strength if she took on a group of random darksiders with an undefined amount of skill in single combat. Or it could show resourcefulness if she made them fight, or used grenades. Or it could show her good heart, in not wanting to kill (or her cowardice, or her realistic view, if she thought she couldn't beat them) if she used stealth. We just don't know.

That's my point. That's like saying Revan defeated hundreds of dark jedi by himself. Nobody knows how the exile won those fights, and there is still nothing to suggest the exile is an extremely powerful force user OR saber comabatant.

What we see in KOTOR II shows that she is above average certainly, but, I agree, nothing phenomenal.

Originally posted by jollyjim311

How the Exile went about dealing with the Dark Jedi could be any number of ways. She could have used stealth, made them fight among themselves, or just lobbed grenades and ran. It could show some strength if she took on a group of random darksiders with an undefined amount of skill in single combat. Or it could show resourcefulness if she made them fight, or used grenades. Or it could show her good heart, in not wanting to kill (or her cowardice, or her realistic view, if she thought she couldn't beat them) if she used stealth. We just don't know.


"She could throw grenades?"

What a load, as I said removing this event from its gameplay context, any below average force user could use the force to either toss it back at her or simply move it a distance away from themselves.


"Fight amongst themselves?"

Except you don't get that power in game, and she's rushed by a bunch of DJ's who's obvious orders are "kill this chick." so really, is she gonna have a sit down and a heart to heart with each one? Getting them to turn to the light? No. It doesn't even make sense.

"She didn't want to kill."

She obviously has no problem with all the other killing she's done throughout the game, even the masters note it was a ridicules amount.

And the whole, "Well Luke didn't fight everyone on the Death Star so the Exile didn't fight every one in Trayus." Is also BS, unlike Luke, The Exile had to go through pretty much every room in the damn place to even get to Kreia.

We do know, she either logically killed them with a saber or with the force either way it shows her skill.

And really you act as if this is her only feat, you all go on and on about how powerful Kreia is, and yet the Exile beat her, legit, twice all the while she was using 3 lightsabers to combat her that alone makes her "up there" on the power charts, lets see Bane who's mind went crazy contemplating the endless possibilities of Jar Kari, contend with three lightsabers not bound by the human hand attack from every angle possible.

She's completely outclassed Sion who was himself capable of taking on Jedi Masters (Master Vash)

The logic of: Well she doesn't have "random uber powerful quote" so she's nothing special is BS.

Stop exaggerating, its annoying "Thats like sayin Revan took on TEHN TOUSAND!!!!!1111" No, its not as I've explained apply a little logic to the situation and you have your answer. What do ALL Jedi and Sith use to combat each other? The force or a saber, now why would the Exile be the ONLY one not to?

The DJ's could block blaster shots, they could toss back grenades, they also spot you when you use stealth combined with the gun torrents, what other means to beat them could she use? Really now be smart. Moreover her efforts against Kreia following that she's extremely competent with either the force or a saber.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
What we see in KOTOR II shows that she is above average certainly, but, I agree, nothing phenomenal.

So any above average Jedi could go through Trayus Academy, Beat Atris, Beat Sion, and beat Traya? Please, basically what your saying is someone like Aylaa Secura or Quinlan Vos could do the same thing the Exile did.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Stop exaggerating, its annoying "Thats like sayin Revan took on TEHN TOUSAND!!!!!1111" No, its not as I've explained apply a little logic to the situation and you have your answer. What do ALL Jedi and Sith use to combat each other? The force or a saber, now why would the Exile be the ONLY one not to?
The exile had companions so you can't definitely state how many she killed, and it doesn't make her powerful because she killed dark Jedi.


They are DARK Jedi, nothing more. They are average force users, get over it.

No, she didn't. You HAVE to do Malachor alone.





Pay Attention, I said killing a DJ isn't impressive, but killing 5 then 10 Sith Troopers while blocking blasters from a gun torrent is. Then proceeding to kill Sion and Traya makes it impressive.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
No, she didn't. You HAVE to do Malachor alone.





Pay Attention, I said killing a DJ isn't impressive, but killing 5 then 10 Sith Troopers while blocking blasters from a gun torrent is. Then proceeding to kill Sion and Traya makes it impressive.

breaking Sion's will and beating Traya isn't impressive. Who says Traya was uber powerful? Her skill lay in manipulation and aside from her force drain, she didn't show anything but the ability to manipulate everybody.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
breaking Sion's will and beating Traya isn't impressive. Who says Traya was uber powerful? Her skill lay in manipulation and aside from her force drain, she didn't show anything but the ability to manipulate everybody.

Uh yeah it is, after she's battled all that she fights Sion who himself is capable of fighting Jedi Masters and beats him 5 times.

Traya hasn't shown anything? How about when she blew away 10 Sith Assassins with the wave of her hand, making Sion bow to her, she's obviously been holding back.

Her skill with the levitating sabers further proves this, she's able to wield three sabers telepathically and able to use each one separately while simultaneously controlling the other two.

She's powerful enough to cloak herself from Jedi Masters while standing right next to them

She tore through Vrooks defenses with the flick of her hand.

She's performed the technique Jacen failed to do, when she successfully dug through Attons mind without killing him (it should be noted that Atton has had specific training to prevent this) She's hardly just some average Sith.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Uh yeah it is, after she's battled all that she fights Sion who himself is capable of fighting Jedi Masters and beats him 5 times.

Traya hasn't shown anything? How about when she blew away 10 Sith Assassins with the wave of her hand, making Sion bow to her, she's obviously been holding back.
Oh you mean she drained all of the assassins? Yes she has her technique and while she's very knowledgable in the force, I have yet to see anything that makes her seem uber powerful.


Wonderful, she has incredible TK powers. Exar Kun was known to do the exact same thing.


Oh you mean after she formed the bond with the exile she was able to cloak herself and cut herself from the force? Any evidence she could do this before she bonded with the exile?


Please quantify how powerful these jedi Masters were, because they didn't seem to be better than average.


So she did a technique better than Jacen, that makes her uber powerful? Hardly a compelling argument.

No, she used a force wave. You hardly seem to be the authority on KOTOR 2.




And that defeats my point how? She has skills on the level of Exar Kun...she must suck ass Note the sarcasm.




What are you talking about? When does the bond allow her to cut herself off from the force?




Kreia comments on their power and how she could feel it from across the galaxy. Her comments were to the affect of, "I can't allow such powerful masters to remain alive." its on Dantooine after she kills them.




COnsidering you used the same one for Revan, it is. Lets get this straight I'm not claiming Kreia was some god who would contend with DN Luke all I'm saying is she isn't some bum like your making her out to be.

This is a pretty close match. I would normally give this to Ulic, though I tend to be biased against The Exile cause I don't much care for her.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Good god, this is just like the Revan thread, your argument is dead. Saying that Kun was an average man who lucked out by being a force sensitive can apply to every force sensitive in the SW galaxy, dumbass. That was probably the dumbest statement ever made on this forum, and after that I don't think I need to continue arguing with you, you're beyond help.

I was using your rather pathetic reasoning and applying it to Kun, which - as your little neolithic mind deduced - would apply to all force sensitives.

Should we get back to square one with this? Or has your little brain finally processed the point I was making?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
More impressive? Kun's knowledge learned under Freedon Nadd and learning everything from Naga Sadow's teachings as opposed to Nihilus and Kreia who learned what, one maneuver on Malachor V? Nihilus didn't know more than one technique unless you count the basics, so you have yet another baseless assumption. Thanks for your opinion but without facts and logic(two things you fail to possess), you are wasting your time.

You've said Nihilus only knew one technique and attempted to pass that off as some validation for your argument that Nihilus isn't stronger than Kun in the force. Let me put things in perspective for you.

1)Nihilus used the force to lift his in operational flag ship of off Malachor.

2)He used what Kreia described as an unstoppable force technique to incapacitate her on Malachor

3)He quite clearly and easily chokes Visas on the Ravager.

4)Let's not forget that he uses the force to keep his battered ship operational, even while large parts of its hull are breached.

5) Finally, he used the force to bind his life essence to his armor.

One technique (besides the basics ) huh?


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wiser yes, knowledgable yes, more experienced yes, stronger? No. Yoda was also all of those things and more but could not defeat Sidious, so your point is moot, as always. This is beginning to look just like the Revan thread in which you were so horribly wtfpwned.


I was talking about Kreia in terms of being a more complete force practitioner. In terms of knowledge, intelligence, resourcefulness Kreia is leagues above Kun, and it's hardly a moot point if you're trying to make a case for Kun being a better Sith.

And as far as strength in the force is concerned, Kun's top tier feats were mostly accomplished using Sith amulets. I would like to see Kreia use a few amulets herself before I make a comparison on their force abilities. Killing three Jedi Masters in a moment with one application of the force, certainly speaks volumes about Kreia's prowess in this department.

How old are you? You seem to think that merely claiming that you've "pwned" someone, makes it so. Go back to that thread and do an overview of the exchanges we had, you'll find that many of your points were lacking.

Let's not forget also, that the Trayus academy contained a large library of Sith holocrons, so Kreia would have learned from many Sith (especially when you consider she already had great knowledge of the Sith as a Jedi historian).

And why is it that you rarely get such simple points Darthsexy, am I to believe that you're really that thick?

Originally posted by Allankles
You've said Nihilus only knew one technique and attempted to pass that off as some validation for your argument that Nihilus isn't stronger than Kun in the force. Let me put things in perspective for you.

1)Nihilus used the force to lift his in operational flag ship of off Malachor.

2)He used what Kreia described as an unstoppable force technique to incapacitate her on Malachor

3)He quite clearly and easily chokes Visas on the Ravager.
I said that Nihilus has only one real technique besides the BASICS, learn how to read. Nothing makes him uber powerful.


Again how does that make him uber powerful, much less on par with Kun?


Yea, he's elite with TK, wow.





intelligence yes, knowledge yes because she was a historian, but as powerful? Hardly. Nice argument though, jk.


Ah and the stupid Revan esque downplaying occurs.


Except I've argued with you repeatedly on the Revan case and found that you lack common sense and logic, and you like to downplay characters as the focal point of your argument.


Except nothing to suggest Kreia found all the underground cities that Revan found, and Revan pillaged Malachor V, so thanks for yet another pitiful argument.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Except nothing to suggest Kreia found all the underground cities that Revan found, and Revan pillaged Malachor V, so thanks for yet another pitiful argument.

And nothing suggest that she didn't, besides one out of universe reference in the largely inconsistent chronicles. Trayus academy remained - as of Kotor 2 - an ancient Sith centre of learning and knowledge. Weak argument as always, a good debater wouldn't use this in their argument, as it's quite irrelevant (considering Kreia's considerable knowledge).

There's also nothing basic about controlling the internal atmosphere of a ship that has large parts of it's hull destroyed. Nothing basic about using TK to lift a cruiser the size of the Ravager. Nothing basic about binding your life essence to your armor.

Nothing basic about using TK as a potent offensive weapon against a Sith as powerful as Kreia (you have to be a considerable force user to do that), and there's nothing that screams "uber Sith" louder than destroying an entire planet's life with the dark side.

But no, I don't acknowledge Darth Nihilus as a uber powerful Sith, hence he isn't - Darth Sexy.

I'll come up with poor reasoning like mentioning that he hasn't demonstrated a plethora of irrelevant overused force techniques so as to "prove" that Nihilus isn't uber. - Darth Sexy

Great logic there, let's put things into perspective very quickly: you don't kill an entire planet's worth of life if you aren't uber powerful in the force - it's that simple. You could write about Nihilus' lack of great variety in force techniques until your fingers bleed(not that there's any indication that he doesn't have variety mind you) but it doesn't change the fact that Nihilus is uber in the dark side.

The circumstances by which he arrived at his powers? Irrelevant, it's like arguing over the hulk' physical power simply because (as you'd put it) he lucked out by being exposed to gamma radiation - see how poor your reasoning is?

It's fiction, whether the guy was born out of a vortex of force energy or not is irrelevant. How irrational can you be.

Originally posted by Allankles
And nothing suggest that she didn't, besides one out of universe reference in the largely inconsistent chronicles. Trayus academy remained - as of Kotor 2 - an ancient Sith centre of learning and knowledge. Weak argument as always, a good debater wouldn't use this in their argument, as it's quite irrelevant (considering Kreia's considerable knowledge).
Blah blah out of universe this inconsistent that poor character plot this, shut up with your ridiculous bullshit. A piss poor debater such as yourself doesn't have the authority to judge other others,


Nothing powerful about that as well.


And then destroyed by an average jedi.


oh good response.


Your arguments are pathetic.


Yes, mr uber powerful who destroyed a planet but couldn't kill Traya and was killed by the exile. Uber powerful!

Traya learned the same technique, Nihilus' technique was amplified because he was a wound in the force. I'm more than positive the exile inherited the same technique when she became a wound.



Tell you what, when you throw in a logical argument that doesn't involve your incessant downplaying bullshit, I'll take you seriously.

Um, hello...there are other points to respond to.



Really would you drop this crap, theres nothing average about the Exile, again saying this is like saying Aylaa Secura could mimic the Exiles entire adventure in KOTOR2. Moreover you've yet to provide any sort of compelling argument that backs up your claim and you can barely refute my points.



Not really, the only power were shown she was given as her status as "wound in the force" was her amplified bonding ability, which allowed her to dominate the bond and the power to syphon power energy from the death of others albeit it could be considered of the same nature of the force drain, its her natural instinctual power not some Ancient Sith power.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Um, hello...there are other points to respond to.



Really would you drop this crap, theres nothing average about the Exile, again saying this is like saying Aylaa Secura could mimic the Exiles entire adventure in KOTOR2. Moreover you've yet to provide any sort of compelling argument that backs up your claim and you can barely refute my points.

What points exactly? Defeating Traya who never wanted to kill the Exile who represented the death of the force which is what she wanted? Or killing Nihilus with the help of two other companions. You have yet to offer an argument that would make the Exile a powerful jedi.

Or did someone miss the entire point of the end game sequence? The whole "Death of the Force thing" was a ruse to make sure that the Exile would not hold back and would kill her. The point of the final battle was as Kreia said a test, a test to see if she was powerful enough to stand with Revan in the coming war, really if your not keen enough to see this she even spells it out for you after you beat her the second time.



I never even mentioned Nihlius, Pay Attention.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Or did someone miss the entire point of the end game sequence? The whole "Death of the Force thing" was a ruse to make sure that the Exile would not hold back and would kill her. The point of the final battle was as Kreia said a test, a test to see if she was powerful enough to stand with Revan in the coming war, really if your not keen enough to see this she even spells it out for you after you beat her the second time.



I never even mentioned Nihlius, Pay Attention.

Powerful enough to stand with Revan? What the hell does that even mean? That's supposed to consider her as powerful as Revan, or be powerful enough to go to war with Revan, and what the hell does that even mean about her personal power compared to powerful jedi?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Powerful enough to stand with Revan? What the hell does that even mean? That's supposed to consider her as powerful as Revan, or be powerful enough to go to war with Revan

Your getting caught up in the word "powerful", look what your original point was:

What points exactly? Defeating Traya who never wanted to kill the Exile who represented the death of the force which is what she wanted?

My response was to attest to the fact that Kreia was NOT holding back, and that the death of the force crap was to make sure the Exile would hold nothing back and be forced into a position in which she could show no mercy and have to kill Kreia, and inturn Kreia would not hold back because as she stated the final battle was a test.


Nothing, as that wasn't the point. The point was Kreia's intentions to raise up strong enough force users to help Revan in the coming war with the "True Sith"

Originally posted by Allankles
You've said Nihilus only knew one technique and attempted to pass that off as some validation for your argument that Nihilus isn't stronger than Kun in the force. Let me put things in perspective for you.

1)Nihilus used the force to lift his in operational flag ship of off Malachor.

Wow. Kun received the entire knowledge of a guy who was able to create solar flares and destroy entire star-systems using the force or force aided weaponary.



Wow. That was a force drain. Kun simply resisted a rather similar attack without actively defending himself against it (Wall of Light attack through Odan).



Yeah. And Kun quite clearly and easily choked Odan, a 1,000 year old Jedi Master who apparently defeated Ancient Sith Lords to death. Even as a ghost he was capable of force choking Luke's student (about 10 people) at once and would have most likely killed them if Streen wouldn't have been there. Guess what's more impressive.



Funny. So he kept his battered ship together ? Can you please explain to me why his ship didn't simply crumble into pieces at the moment he was killed by the Exile ? Obviously the ship was functional enough to remain intact without his presence or force powers keeping it together. Meaning that was quite untrue.



Wow. Kun used the force to bind his spirit to the temples on Yavin 4 and as a ghost was still powerful enough to cause some nice amount of damage - 4,000 years after his actual death.



Urm. Knowledge ? Kun had more knowledge than he could ever use, according to the omniscient narrator of the TOTJ comics. Hard to trump that. Intelligence ? Kun might, in some cases, appear like being quite the hot-head. But I really don't see where he lacks intelligence. He was obviously rather good at making people join his cause as he basically talked people in joining the Dark Side.



Woah. I didn't see Kun using his amulet to freeze the entire population of the Senate on Coruscant. I didn't see him using his amulet while killing Odan (also only one force attack to kill a Jedi Master) and I didn't see him using his amulet while slaugthering Vodo or performing that nice Sith ritual to enable his spirit to "run rampant throughout the galaxy". So I wonder what you are talking about...



Let's not forget that Revan did actually plunder the place and finally destroyed it pretty much using the mass shadow generator. Did you any Sith holocrons in the Academy during KotoR 2 ? I can't remember "a large library" of them that was actually found there. And even then I don't see a point while Kun, who had knowledge coming from people that Kreia descriped as "frightening" (in terms of power), should be less powerful than Kreia.

Not to mention that I don't see any revelance for this thread. Ulic could hold his own against Exar Kun. Something that people who must have had pretty nice combat skills (like Vodo) weren't capable of. Hell...even when he completely lost his force powers he was able to hold his own against an enraged Jedi in a lightsaber duel. So I guess in terms of lightsaber combat Ulic would defeat The Exile.

Leaves force powers. And again Ulic received information from Freedom Nadd and most likely Aleema (both rather skilled when it comes to Dark Side abilities) and of course Exar Kun himself (who also had a nice knowledge base). Aside of that he also owns a Sith amulet (similar to that of Kun) that seems to have boosted his powers as Aleema perceives him and Kun as "rippling with Dark side energies" after their duel. And the Exile ? The Exile technically is just another Jedi when it comes to force powers, without any special training or knowledge. The only thing "special" is that "hole in the force" stuff which does actually affect combat...how ? Didn't help her to overcome somebody like Sion and it didn't grant her immunity against force attacks. Going by this, the Exile is pretty much toast when she has to fight Ulic.

And when have Ulic's awesome 1337 force power been documented? Considering her own force defenses were enough to protect her from Kreia who's specialty is guess what...force attacks.

The bulk of Darht sexy's arguments constitute dismissing my arguments with a simple "No". I cant even call him a debater. And Nihilus humiliated Kreia, Darthsexy, he didn't bother to try and kill her, that was Sion.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Wow. Kun received the entire knowledge of a guy who was able to create solar flares and destroy entire star-systems using the force or force aided weaponary.

Sadow possessed great knowledge in Sith alchemy (I haven't attempted to argue against that), but Kreia studied many Sith not just one ancient Sith alchemist. Her whole life (several years more than Kun lived) was dedicated to learning of the force and the Jedi and Sith specifically. So as impressive as Sadow was, it's a weak argument to try and place Kun's knowledge on par with Kreia's simply for the fact that Kun learnt from Sadow. Try again.



Originally posted by Borbarad

Wow. That was a force drain. Kun simply resisted a rather similar attack without actively defending himself against it (Wall of Light attack through Odan).

What force drain? Nihilus used TK on Kreia, there was no indication that it was force drain.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Yeah. And Kun quite clearly and easily choked Odan, a 1,000 year old Jedi Master who apparently defeated Ancient Sith Lords to death. Even as a ghost he was capable of force choking Luke's student (about 10 people) at once and would have most likely killed them if Streen wouldn't have been there. Guess what's more impressive.

What's impressive about attacking Jedi acolytes? Besides I wasn't trying to claim that Nihilus' force choke on Visas was impressive, I was simply making the point that he used force techniques besides drain.


Originally posted by Borbarad

Funny. So he kept his battered ship together ? Can you please explain to me why his ship didn't simply crumble into pieces at the moment he was killed by the Exile ? Obviously the ship was functional enough to remain intact without his presence or force powers keeping it together. Meaning that was quite untrue.

Oh! You happened to miss the part in Kotor 2, where Visas mentions that Nihilus keeps the ship operational with the force, despite the fact that large parts of it's hull are destroyed? In fact, the bridge happens to be exposed to space, yet the ships internal pressure is unaffected. He was obviously using an unnamed technique. Besides, this is besides the point, I was merely highlighting that Nihilus was capable of using more than one technique.


Originally posted by Borbarad

Wow. Kun used the force to bind his spirit to the temples on Yavin 4 and as a ghost was still powerful enough to cause some nice amount of damage - 4,000 years after his actual death.

What's impressive about this? You know that he actually died in performing this ritual, right? Nihilus was actually still in the physical realm while his life essence remained bonded to his armor. He supposedly used this technique to escape death on Malachor (during or after the Mando wars). Exar Kun's attempt to preserve his life failed, so what's impressive there? Again, I was merely making the point out that Nihilus knew more than one technique.


Originally posted by Borbarad

Woah. I didn't see Kun using his amulet to freeze the entire population of the Senate on Coruscant. .

It's an impressive feat, but it was never used on Jedi. Nihilus actually killed hundreds of Jedi and millions (perhaps billions) of organisms in one application of the force.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I didn't see him using his amulet while killing Odan (also only one force attack to kill a Jedi Master) and I didn't see him using his amulet while slaugthering Vodo or performing that nice Sith ritual to enable his spirit to "run rampant throughout the galaxy". So I wonder what you are talking about.

First of all his spirit never run rampant throughout the galaxy, and killing Vodo, Odan in the manner that he did is more impressive than Kreia killing three Jedi masters by draining them of the force?



Originally posted by Borbarad

Let's not forget that Revan did actually plunder the place and finally destroyed it pretty much using the mass shadow generator. Did you any Sith holocrons in the Academy during KotoR 2 ? I can't remember "a large library" of them that was actually found there. And even then I don't see a point while Kun, who had knowledge coming from people that Kreia descriped as "frightening" (in terms of power), should be less powerful than Kreia.


The mass shadow generator obviously didn't destroy the trayus academy, how the hell can you even write that? Secondly it's obvious that there was plenty of Sith knowledge in Trayus core when you consider that it's implicitly stated that Kreia, Sion and Nihilus spent the better part of five years learning of the Sith at Malachor 5.

Lastly, Kreia never described the ancient Sith as frightening, she only mentioned that they were great lightsaber duelist and as you should know Sadow and his particular band of ancient sith hadn't started using lightsabers yet.

Originally posted by Allankles
The bulk of Darht sexy's arguments constitute dismissing my arguments with a simple "No". I cant even call him a debater. And Nihilus humiliated Kreia, Darthsexy, he didn't bother to try and kill her, that was Sion.
Considering I wtfpwned you in the only other debate I've ever had with you, I wouldn't call you a credible source for anything, especially with your piss poor debating skills. And no, Nihilus stripped her of the force yet he couldn't kill her. "I was stripped of my power, cast out", or did you forget that.




Kreia was a historian, you have no idea what sith relics she studied if any, so stop speculating. Kreia's knowledge lies within history and the philosophy of the force, but I wouldn't even begin to compare her power with that of Exar Kun.






You mean to the point where she couldn't even call her lightsaber back? That sounds like the force drain to me.





It's pretty obvious that Nai destroyed your whole argument when we see Nihilus dying and his ship staying in tact.





Kun actually died? Good lord are you a moron. Kun shed his mortal body to begin a spirit, that's the point of the ritual. There was NO attempt to preserve his own life. Stop downplaying a character because you do it so poorly and it makes you look stupid.





Except for the fact that Nihilus never killed hundreds of Jedi. You know why? Because after the Jedi Civil War there were less than 100 jedi left in the entire galaxy, the majority leaving the jedi order and becoming anonymous, so for all you know, there were 10 jedi on Katarr.




Who cares what was more impressive? Kun didn't need to put on a spectacle against 3 jedi masters, he did enough by freezing the entire senate chamber.




Except for the fact that Sion and Nihilus were more than likely part of the jedi civil war, and after the mass shadow generator destroyed Malachor V, they got on their trusty ship and started killing from the outer regions.

I disagree. The most important point to consider is the lightsaber color that is used by the two devilish combatants. The Trayus academy is large dark and hollow like an edgar ellan poe poem. Therefore the one that uses red lightsaber is excuse the pun "In the Red". Everyone knows that red can be seen from further than any other on the color spectrum which opens the user to attacks by flying projectiles from his enemy. God didn't intend for stalactites to be used to carve out someones heart.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Considering I wtfpwned you in the only other debate I've ever had with you, I wouldn't call you a credible source for anything, especially with your piss poor debating skills. And no, Nihilus stripped her of the force yet he couldn't kill her. "I was stripped of my power, cast out", or did you forget that.

She was cast out (as you've quite rightly mentioned) which would imply that she was essentially expelled from the trayus academy, you've killed your own silly argument right there.

It would also make good sense to note that they would easily have killed her if that's what they wished, or are you forgetting they had her at their mercy? And what I saw was a tk blast that all but incapacitated her. You can't use the force effectively if your head has just suffered significant blunt force trauma, are you really this narrow minded?

The only time we see Nihilus use his drain in the game, it's both identified by a orange arc of light and doesn't throw it's victim off their feet.

And you hardly pwned anybody, unless your idea of pwned is dismissing another persons arguments on the basis that you don't like them. I've never seen you write an effective counterargument in any of the exchanges we've had. And here you are making the same ineffective and weak (at best) arguments.



Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Kreia was a historian, you have no idea what sith relics she studied if any, so stop speculating. Kreia's knowledge lies within history and the philosophy of the force, but I wouldn't even begin to compare her power with that of Exar Kun.

You have no idea how much knowledge Exar Kun possessed himself, he even mentions that he didn't understand many of the Sith techniques he'd come across.






YOriginally posted by Darth Sexy
ou mean to the point where she couldn't even call her lightsaber back? That sounds like the force drain to me.

And it also tells me that the blunt force of her body's impact on the wall, most certainly affected her ability to focus in effect making her incapable of using the force - or have you forgotten that Jedi and Sith can get koed. We see Obi Wan get incapacitated by Dooku's tk in ROTS, the same likely happened here.

I'm not trying to claim that Nihilus didn't do some kind of drain on her (her powers were stripped away afterall) but in this instance Nihilus definitely uses tk as opposed to a force drain. And how do we know it's not Sion using the force to stop Kreia from retrieving her lightsaber?





YOriginally posted by Darth Sexy
It's pretty obvious that Nai destroyed your whole argument when we see Nihilus dying and his ship staying in tact.

How about getting a clue? It's a pretty irrelevant point to make as Nihilus did keep his ship operational. The specifics of how he managed for instance, to keep the internal pressure of the ship normal despite the fact that it had many hull breaches is unknown.

Whether the phenomenon was directly linked to a continual conscience effort by Nihilus is unknown. The important point here (you never address the important points) is that Nihilus did keep his ship intact with the force - because Kotor 2 quite clearly states that he did.





YOriginally posted by Darth Sexy
Kun actually died? Good lord are you a moron. Kun shed his mortal body to begin a spirit, that's the point of the ritual. There was NO attempt to preserve his own life. Stop downplaying a character because you do it so poorly and it makes you look stupid.

I'm hardly downplaying Kun. In SW spirits are immortal anyway and Kun essentially killed himself, while Nihilus preserved his existence in the mortal plane while binding his spirit. I'll admit that it was Kun's intention to die in the physical plane, however he failed to escape the confines of the Yavin temple as he'd expected.





YOriginally posted by Darth Sexy
Except for the fact that Nihilus never killed hundreds of Jedi. You know why? Because after the Jedi Civil War there were less than 100 jedi left in the entire galaxy, the majority leaving the jedi order and becoming anonymous, so for all you know, there were 10 jedi on Katarr.

Pointless? The Jedi after the Civil war were in the hundreds by estimation, so I gave a rough estimate, no big deal. And this is besides the point, we know that many Jedi went to Katarr and all of them died, including the force sensitive Miralukas, as well as the entire planets life forms.



YOriginally posted by Darth Sexy
Who cares what was more impressive? Kun didn't need to put on a spectacle against 3 jedi masters, he did enough by freezing the entire senate chamber.

And your point being? My point is; as impressive as it was he could never use it against Jedi, otherwise he would have.




YOriginally posted by Darth Sexy
Except for the fact that Sion and Nihilus were more than likely part of the jedi civil war, and after the mass shadow generator destroyed Malachor V, they got on their trusty ship and started killing from the outer regions.

Except that this argument is based on your wishful thinking given that it's quite clearly elaborated that Nihilus, Kreia and Sion were based on Malachor 5 for the better part of five years. Kreia as master of the academy, trained Nihilus and Sion for a good part of that time.

I meant to say conscious effort not *conscience*.

wasnt the exile stated to be just an ordinary jedi master?

Before she was exiled. If you remember, she has a kind of passive force drain, when she kills someone she drains their power and gains strenght (the Jedi Masters tells you this), so she would actually have drained the power of hundreds upon hundreds of people....

Originally posted by Borbarad
Wow. Kun received the entire knowledge of a guy who was able to create solar flares and destroy entire star-systems using the force or force aided weaponary.

And had a whole 6 months to learn from it... Wow, what a god.



No proof for that whatsoever.



Right, because force blocking is totally similar to something described as the greatest of all sith techniques and something to which there is no defence {}, not to mention that Nihilus' raw power is miles beyond Odan's.

And where's the proof that Kun didn't actively defend against it?



And by Odan's own admission, he was 'old an weak,' so the feat really isn't too special.



Funny how you forget to mention that Kun as a spirit was more powerful than he had ever been in true form, given he had access to a number of power sources that he had preserved since his physical death.



Erm, except, that's what actually happened... The ship starts falling to pieces as soon as you start leaving the Ravager.



Look dude, if you're going to just jump into someone else's argument, at least understand what they're saying. Allankles is simply pointing out that Nihilus knows more than one technique. And again, Kun as a ghost > Kun in his true original form, so quit with this 'even as a ghost' bs.



Do you actually like not know how to distinguish between having access to knowledge, and studying under said knowledge? Yes, Kun's knowledge base was incredibly large, however his 6 months of learning from said knowledge in comparison to Traya's decades in studying the lightside, as well as a further year in learning the darkside pretty much sucks.



No, that's not what he 'basically' did, what he 'basically' did was convince a group of Jedi into coming with him to his source of what they thought was some ancient forgotten Jedi knowledge. However, he in no way actually turned them to the darkside, the credit for that goes to the sith spirits that were released from the sith holocron.



What don't you get about the amulets considerably augmenting his force connection? He doesn't actively have to be using the amulets for them to be in effect, as they naturally increase his force connection.





What don't you get about being able to draw power from everyone she kills?

What don't you get about being harder to directly affect or sense due to a lack of force presence?



God forbid that she wasn't able to kill someone in combat who can't actually be killed in combat, what a weakling. That totally proves that Ulic > The Exile.

Originally posted by Allankles
Sadow possessed great knowledge in Sith alchemy (I haven't attempted to argue against that), but Kreia studied many Sith not just one ancient Sith alchemist. Her whole life (several years more than Kun lived) was dedicated to learning of the force and the Jedi and Sith specifically. So as impressive as Sadow was, it's a weak argument to try and place Kun's knowledge on par with Kreia's simply for the fact that Kun learnt from Sadow. Try again.


It's nice that you know what Kreia did considering we almost have no background information on her. People at that time weren't trained from infancy on - hence you can't tell me when Kreia did start her training exactly. And I don't have to put Kun's knowledge on par with Kreia's because it's above Kreia's amount of knowledge. As stated by the omniscient narrator, Kun had more knowledge than he would be capable of using.



Yeah. Of course. With the exception of the little fact that Kreia tries to lift her lightsaber using the force and is obviously not able to do that. Ups. Force drain. Unless you want to argue that Nihilus did telekinetically force push Kreia's force energy away... And then you should take it up with Kreia personally because, her own words from that scene: "There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense. I was cast down, stripped of my power, exiled."



You did notice that a force choke is still "basic knowledge" when it comes to force techniques, right ?



In fact, the bridge does have windows in it. So you are wrong. And you seem to have missed the part in KotoR 2 where Nihilus ship doesn't fall apart after he is killed which should be the case if he kept it together. Got that now ? And even this would be telekinesis which is, again, a "basic" force technique. Scale isn't the same thing as "advanced force use".



And I'm trying to explain to you that compared to Sith Lords who did know some really impressive stuff, Nihilus is nothing special with the exception for his force drain ability. And that's it. Kun in his time obviously had enough knowledge to construct Sith amulets (given he wears two of them when he had only one) and come up with Sith magic attacks (like the mass freezing in the senate) that Kreia, as it seems, didn't have any knowledge about.



And Thon did defeat a Sith which did the same thing on Ambria. Now if Thon is, at least, compareable to the like of Odan and Vodo in terms of skill (given that they all were Jedi Masters at the same time), I wonder what your conclusion is, considering Kun did simply tool Odan and Vodo without having much problems.



You mean three Jedi Masters that were actually concentrading of shutting the Exiles connection to the force down when Kreia did attack them ? You mean using a technique on them against which "there is no defence" ? Sure that is still impressive. Yet Kreia would still lose to Kun in a force fight.



The only thing that is obvious is, that there don't seem to be any greater sources of knowledge in the Trayus academy during KotoR 2. Which would be illogical anyways since Revan wouldn't have left the knowledge there just to destroy the planet (risking the destruction of said knowledge). And we don't know what Kreia, Sion and Nihilus exactly did on Malachor. What we know is that Kreia trained Sion and Nihilus but we don't know if the knowledge was still present at Malachor or if Kreia received it before. If that should be the case she possibly only had a few months to study that knowledge.



Oh, really ? She descriped Ragnos grasp of the Dark Side as "frightening" in case you didn't notice that. And Sadow and his friends had actually stopped using lightsaber and instead preferred their Sith swords. Does that naturally mean they are weaker duellists especially since Kreia says that "We would look like children playing with toys compared to them" when the "them" clearly refers to all ancient Sith Lords or at least those four burried in the valley which, unfortunatelly for you, would include Sadow. Hmm.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
And had a whole 6 months to learn from it... Wow, what a god.


That's far more time than the Exile ever had to learn something from Kreia. Aside of that: Have a look at Luke. Beginning ESB to end of ROTJ = 6 months.



See above.



Kun didn't block the attack. He resisted it. And again: Odan did defeat ancient Sith Lords who were (at least the Sith on Ambria) able to reproduce Nihilus feat of draining a planet empty. Hmm.



He walks in, and Odan tries to kick his ass. Kun, who doesn't even know that technique, is simply pushed back. Where's Kun's defence there ?



Yeah. Yoda is "old and weak" too. Hooray.



What bullshit. Where did you pull that from ? He obviously had no access to his amulets. He was barely able to talk over the centuries. Yet somehow he was "more powerful" than before ? Yeah, right.




That might come from the huge bombs planted by Mandalore that actually blow the ship up, Mr. Smartass.



Dude. If you're going to just jump into someone else's argument, at least make sure that you are capable to use reasoning or apply some logical argument. Ok. It's you. So simply forget that about "logic", "reasoning" and "arguments". Such words are strange to your mental realm of idiotism.



Kun's six months of studying Dark Side lore + unknown time he spent as lightside practicioneer VS Traya's unknown time studying in both fields. Hmm...what result do you expect comparing two unknowns, huh ? Not to mention that things like learning speed or prodigious abilities on certain field might actually speed up the learning.



He's smart enough to device plans how to attack the republic. He's smart enough to make some suspicious people follow him. He's smart enough to plunder a world filled with Jedi knowledge without having to confront Jedi. Hmm....the guy doesn't seem to be stupid which was all that I wanted to say.



Oh wait. I spot some nice contradiction to your point above that he was more powerful as a spirit (without amulets) than when he was alive. Now, all over a sudden, the amulets are augmenting his force connection ? Where has that ever been stated anyway ? For all we know, it just augments Kun's anger and forces them into the form of energy blasts.



What don't you get about the nature of her abilities ? First: Considering a light side canon, she did never kill anybody "important". Pretty stupid point. And then she draws raw force power over away using that ability. But where does that make her stronger ?



What don't you get about the fact that this is an invention of your own brain, huh ? Mere Sith assassins can affect her via the force rather easily but everyone else should have problems ? Yeah, right.



God forbid that she wasn't able to use her uber-super-hyper-force-drain-hole-in-the-force-nonsens to kill somebody who needs the force to keep his body parts from falling apart. Woah. Impressive.
Her force skills aren't enough to overcome somebody who had his ass handed to him by Nihilus rather easily and was Kreia private pet. And she also doesn't have enough lightsaber abilities to actually disarm Sion. Yet that should work against somebody who was one of the most powerful force users of his time and had enough saberskill to stalemate Kun and fend of an enraged Jedi (the latter without having access to the force) ?

Yeah. Right.
The point is that the Exile has never shown anything impressive in terms of lightsaber combat or force use that would put her above Ulic Quel-Droma. It's really that easy.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
And had a whole 6 months to learn from it... Wow, what a god.
Yes, 6 months+learning everything from Sadow. Good point there Francine.




Proof shouldn't even be used in a debate with you since you constantly argue against it.




Except the greatest of all techniques was the force storm, specifically Palpatine's, but you're used to making shit up.


Who the hell has to prove what Kun DIDNT do? Good lord francine learn the rules of debate.



Um who cares if he was old and weak. A technique is a technique whether youre 50 or 500. Not to mention Yoda was at his peak 20 years before he died.


This is quite possibly the dumbest thing you've ever said, and I know I say that everytime you post but you always add something extra to your stupidity.




No, no it doesn't. It eventually gets blown up by the republic.




You do know that Nai is miles ahead of you in the logic and debate categories? And shut up, youre embarassing yourself with your stupidity.




Too bad you have no proof of how long Nihilus actually learned from Traya, and how long Nihilus spent on the Ravager in the unknown regions.




You really are an idiot... But this is entertaining.




Except amulets weren't known to do that, so stop making shit up because you can't debate worth a damn.






No dumbass, the proof is that Ulic was a saber prodigy who stalemated Kun, while you have nothing on the exile besides speculation and game mechanics. Great going jackass, another piss poor argument...

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Funny how you forget to mention that Kun as a spirit was more powerful than he had ever been in true form given he had access to a number of power sources that he had preserved since his physical death.

Excuse me, I just had to interject. I also find that the fact that you forgot to mention you were making shit up quite comedic, to say the least.

Let's assume, arguendo, that what you're saying is true. This then begs the question: why is Kun so weak? If Exar could draw on such supplies, why has his power vastly diminished to the point where he needs to draw on residual energy to sustain himself? Why does he need others' life forces when he supposedly has the Golden Globe to draw on? I'll repost what I said in the other topic, as it'd be stupid on my behalf to write something new:

Originally posted by Advent
"Kun discovered that one of his great temples was inhabited by a small band of armed humans. But before he could gather enough strength to reach out to tap this energy source, the Force-user and his fellows departed, and Kun again lapsed into sleep.

Eagerly, but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, proving for weaknessess and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active.

Enraged and drained, Ken returns to Gantoris. Desperate for more energy, he goads Gantoris

"Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a reserve of energy to last until he can subvert more students." (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, pg. 49)

The first statement is talking about a Force sensitive human who arrived on Yavin, not any of Luke's Jedi. And the fact that he couldn't even "gather enough strength" to feed on them implies that Kun's power is greatly lessened. I'm curious as to why he even would need to use some no name Force sensitive if he was more powerful in spirit form, as opposed to physical form (and had objects, places, etc. to draw upon).

And, the third statement is made in reference to when Kun appears to Luke as a shade of his father, and Luke rejects him. He's "drained", and is "desperate for energy", yet - according to you - he can call upon these supposed resources, and other things. To me, if what you're saying is true, then those things do not help him much, if they even do at all.

Throughout the entire story (Dark Apprentice, at least) Exar Kun draws upon anger, and is in dire need of such. Where are these alleged "resources"? Why aren't they so much as mentioned? The only reference to such a thing is indirect, and it's the Golden Globe. As Kun states that he had to "drain dry every last one of the Massassi". He doesn't say he accessed such afterwards, and there's no indication of anything you're suggesting. It's your turn now. Prove up.

Indeed, it'll be hard, considering Kun is more powerful in the flesh.

Wow mega wtf pwnage for dickbaris

Advent, all those quotes that you just supplied are in reference to Kun before tapping into those power sources. Of course I'm not claiming that his spirit form alone is more powerful than his original form, but with all of the added power sources (Golden Globe, the Massasi Temples, Yavin itself etc.), it quite clearly is, given it was able to force own a post DE Luke, who was pretty damn powerful (DE Luke Respect Thread). Info on all of this is in I, Jedi, and I'll post quotes and such later when I have access to the book, so until then don't reply.

You're an embarassment Noobaris

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Advent, all those quotes that you just supplied are in reference to Kun before tapping into those power sources.

How about you actually provide viable evidence before typing, as you'll find it makes your response rather worthless.

1.) Prove that Kun 'tapped into' these supposed sources of energy he had after killing Gantoris. It's funny, since even the secondary, fallible account (I, Jedi) doesn't make any note that he did such, as far as I've checked.

The only thing that vaguely resembles your argument is dialogue between characters:

"I thought I heard someone - Bodo Baas, perhaps - say the temples here had all been raised as a focus for Exar Kun's power. Maybe this temple isn't the focus of it, but just linked to it. If the link was forged of Sith magic, Exar Kun might be able to block back-tracing. Another of the temples here, then, would be the centerpoint of his power."

And that doesn't support what you're saying either, because even after Kun trapped Luke at the actual centerpoint and put him in a comatose, he was "still was not ready to take on Luke directly", because he was not powerful enough. Which leads one to believe that the temples only preserved his strength enough to remain a spirit for thousands of years (much like the Ancient Sith on Korriban). Luke even wonders as to why Kun would still be lingering around, and not have vanished entirely, and that's the reason. Which leads me to #2.

2.) Prove that these sources even enhance his power anymore than they did to simply keep his spirit from diminishing.

3.) "With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear. Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form." (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p. 49)

If the temples made him more powerful than he was in the flesh, then why are the students that he needs energy from] the only ingredient said to be used to revert him back to his physical form? The only "sources" that are said to increase his strength and power are that of actual Force sensitives, and their emotions. Golden Globe? No, not even mentioned in either account. Massassi Temple? Only used to sustain his spirit from becoming nonexistent. Yavin? Uh, prove up.



"...Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him-but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly."

And it also mentions previously that he was seeking any defensive tactic to work. This would imply that he had no defense for it.



Really? That's funny, I don't recall the Golden Globe ever being mentioned in I, Jedi (and I just searched the e-book). Care to provide a specific quote(s)? I'd love to know how the book contains said information.



So until you provide sufficient evidence, don't waste my time, noob.

Hey Advent, are there ebooks to all of these sources such as I, Jedi, and the Jedi Academy Sourcebook along with whatever other books mention Exar Kun as a spirit. I don't want to take the time to buy those books.

Ok, before that one minor point blows up into a huge debate, I'll man up and admit right now that I was basing everything off of what Lightsnake's been saying, and honestly didn't know what I was talking about, but really Advent, you don't have to address every argument made against Kun you know, I mean geez, one might suspect you that you actually did kill commies. And the 'noob' comment hurt, by the way.

That's not something I'd expect from you, but knowing you, it isn't too ridiculous.

Anyways, if you've ever read the discussion between Lightsnake, Kadesh, and I (those two were arguing the point you just were), I put their arguments on the matter to rest.





That really did make me laugh out loud.

Lol, so you get it right (because if you don't what I said probably sounded pretty random)?

Yes, I got it in the other topic, as well. I wouldn't have laughed otherwise.

Ulic Qel-Droma

Look at your rebuttals Darth Sexy or whoever it is that bothered to quote my posts; I state that Nihilus kept the internal atmosphere of his ship normal despite massive breaches in the hull, you say there were windows. Did you ever play through the Ravager level? As it's quite clear that many parts of the ship were exposed to open space, including the bridge.

Then you present a weak argument against Kotor 2 statement on Nihilus keeping the ship intact, Kotor 2 stated that he used the force to keep his ship intact, and it gets destroyed soon after Nihilus dies, so how the hell do you have an argument here? The specifics of what Nihilus did to actually keep his ship together are unknown, what matters is is that he did keep his ship intact - be logical.

As for Nihilis force techniques outside of his force drain, you only added "besides the basics" when I pointed out examples where Nihilus used techniques outside of force drain. Besides, your argument here is rather piss poor, as its completely based on your preference. Nihilus' drain makes him uber powerful and he's able to effect it because he's uber powerful, whichever way you look at it (logically).

Anyway, "basic", as you say, is really a matter of interpretation.

Lastly, Kreia was a Jedi Master for many years, and we know this because she was Revan's first trainer many decades before Kotor 2 and it's implied that she had many more padawans in her time as a Jedi. It should also be noted that she claimed to have followed Atris' path i.e. studying Jedi and Sith holocrons for years to uncover force secrets.

As far as Kun's knowledge goes, he may have had too much knowledge to use within 6 months, but the omniscient narrator never claims that Kun was the most knowledgeable Sith in history.

Logically Kreia, should have been many years more knowledgeable than Kun. She was a historian and chronicler for years, as well as master of a Sith academy for the better part of five years, she's clearly had alot more time than Kun to gain knowledge in the force. Nebaris made a valid point in this case.

As for what Nihilus did to Kreia in the cutscene, why should we argue incessantly over what is clearly specualtion on both our parts? The evidence says it was tk blast, anything beyond that is speculation based on what is read in Kreia's words, what we actually see, is a telekinetic force slamming Kreia onto a wall.

You want to believe you interpretation is the truth? You lose.

BTW The Exile beats Ulic.

Originally posted by Allankles
Look at your rebuttals Darth Sexy or whoever it is that bothered to quote my posts; I state that Nihilus kept the internal atmosphere of his ship normal despite massive breaches in the hull, you say there were windows. Did you ever play through the Ravager level? As it's quite clear that many parts of the ship were exposed to open space, including the bridge.
Yes I've played it, and then Mandalore blew up the Ravager long after Nihilus is dead.


Weak argument? Yet again you have not presented a single point in either this debate or the Revan debate, which is why it was defeated so easily. Your argument yet again dies when you realize Mandalore set off the Proton bombs.


Nihilus' drain is the only thing that makes him stand out, yet he couldn't deal with Traya nor the exile.


So?


Of course not but logical deduction states that Kun knew a shitload more than Traya, as did Revan. Understand it or shut up.


Quality>Quantity. Yoda was 800+ years and his knowledge didn't surpass that of Sidious who was 60, which destroys your argument again.



As I've stated earlier, piss poor debaters such as yourself seem to have a weird grasp on reality. Just in case you don't get it, i'm calling you delusional.


Sure she does. Thanks for providing a compelling argument.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yes I've played it, and then Mandalore blew up the Ravager long after Nihilus is dead.

Easy there! When was it canonically stated that he blows the ship long after Nihilus died? Keep the speculations to your fanfics.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Weak argument? Yet again you have not presented a single point in either this debate or the Revan debate, which is why it was defeated so easily. Your argument yet again dies when you realize Mandalore set off the Proton bombs.

Yes, weak! It's a silly argument: "why didn't Nihilus' ship break down immediately after Nihilus died?" It shows how narrow minded you are. First of all, I wouldn't have the answers, Kotor 2 never specified how he kept his ship together. Secondly, we wouldn't know whether the integrity of the Ravager was dependent on a continual conscience effort by Nihilus.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Nihilus' drain is the only thing that makes him stand out, yet he couldn't deal with Traya nor the exile.

This is rather irrelevant, you should know. I entertained you with a few rebuttals, but I tire of arguing over the most irrelevant points. I told you before, whether you're powerful because you were born in a force vortex or not is irrelevant as it's all fiction. Your bias leads you to be irrational.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
So?


She had tons more knowledge than Kun, years more.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Of course not but logical deduction states that Kun knew a shitload more than Traya, as did Revan. Understand it or shut up.

A fail to see what is logical about assuming a relatively young and green Jedi, with a 6 month crush course on Sith arts can have more knowledge than a many decades wizened Jedi historian, Sith Lord and Sith Academy Master.



Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Quality>Quantity. Yoda was 800+ years and his knowledge didn't surpass that of Sidious who was 60, which destroys your argument again.

Hardly. Sidious had more than a 6 month crush course in Sith knowledge, besides he only surpassed Yoda in Sith knowledge, and as we know - Yoda was never Sith.



Originally posted by Darth Sexy
As I've stated earlier, piss poor debaters such as yourself seem to have a weird grasp on reality. Just in case you don't get it, i'm calling you delusional.

Piss poor? I think you're poorer than you give yourself credit for. Debate lesson one, meaningless insults don't win you debates.

Piss poor? I think your poorer than you give yourself credit for. Debate lesson one, meaningless insults don't win you debates.

Something he'll never learn.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Piss poor? I think your poorer than you give yourself credit for. Debate lesson one, meaningless insults don't win you debates.

Something he'll never learn.

I'm guessing he thinks that throwing an insult here and there will help his debate. I see him do it alot with Nebaris, almost as if he expects that Nebaris' arguments should fall in the face of his little digs.

Edit

Originally posted by Allankles
Easy there! When was it canonically stated that he blows the ship long after Nihilus died? Keep the speculations to your fanfics.
You've proven my point, thank you. There's nothing canon about Nihilus allegedly holding his ship up.





Translation: I'm making an assertion and I can't back it up so I'm going to make up some baseless bullshit and pass it off as fact.





Once again, you don't know how debate objectively, nor how to debate at all, so don't pass your inabilities off as me being irrational.





Once again quality>quantity and raw force potential>all










No no, Sidious' knowledge surpassed that of Yoda as well considering he knew the ways of the Jedi, so your point is defeated.






You're right, but when arguing against you our AC, insults are just extra, neither one of you can debate.

Sure, we can't debate, your so LEET . Even if we couldn't (which is BS) at least, as I said we can form a sentence that makes sense.

The Sith Lords (Sion, Traya and Nihilus) were obviously powerful Sith. They were able to hunt down and destroy almost all of the Jedi in the galaxy.

Nihilus was powerful enough to destroy planets just with the Force. It has been stated more than once that he keeps the ship together (statements by Visas and Colonel Tobin come to mind). When he dies the ship starts falling to pieces. It's only after the Exile leaves the Ravager that Mandalore blows is up. The only reason the Exile could fight Nihulus was because he was a wound in the Force himself . No one else would have a chance.

Sion's power was impressive because nothing could kill him. That's why the fight was about strength of will. How many times did you kill him and he would regenerate I counted 3. The only reason Sion lost is because he had a weak will.

Traya was quite powerful herself she was able to was able to kill three Jedi counsel members with one attack. Was able to wield three or more lightsabers in battle with the Force.

The Jedi Exile himself is more powerful than any of these (he did kill them). While not being able to destroy entire planets or regenerate from lethal wounds he becomes stronger with every one he kills (explained by the masters on Dantooine). The Exile WAS a average Force user before the Mandalorian wars but after the events of Malachor V he grows stronger and stronger because of his unique power. His skill is easy to prove just see how fast he learns the Force and lightsaber forms from the masters. By the end of the game the Exile easily defeats Dark Jedi (which are average Force users) and loads of Sith troopers. To claim that the Exile is an average Force user is ridicules and can mean only 2 things:

1 You didn't pay attention to what is said in the game.
2 You couldn't understand what is said in the game.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Sure, we can't debate, your so LEET . Even if we couldn't (which is BS) at least, as I said we can form a sentence that makes sense.

Wouldn't it be you're? If you're going to concede an argument by pointing out spelling mistakes, make sure your spelling is correct, otherwise you look like a fool.

Originally posted by the_satan32
The Sith Lords (Sion, Traya and Nihilus) were obviously powerful Sith. They were able to hunt down and destroy almost all of the Jedi in the galaxy.

Nihilus was powerful enough to destroy planets just with the Force. It has been stated more than once that he keeps the ship together (statements by Visas and Colonel Tobin come to mind). When he dies the ship starts falling to pieces. It's only after the Exile leaves the Ravager that Mandalore blows is up. The only reason the Exile could fight Nihulus was because he was a wound in the Force himself . No one else would have a chance.

Sion's power was impressive because nothing could kill him. That's why the fight was about strength of will. How many times did you kill him and he would regenerate I counted 3. The only reason Sion lost is because he had a weak will.

Traya was quite powerful herself she was able to was able to kill three Jedi counsel members with one attack. Was able to wield three or more lightsabers in battle with the Force.

The Jedi Exile himself is more powerful than any of these (he did kill them). While not being able to destroy entire planets or regenerate from lethal wounds he becomes stronger with every one he kills (explained by the masters on Dantooine). The Exile WAS a average Force user before the Mandalorian wars but after the events of Malachor V he grows stronger and stronger because of his unique power. His skill is easy to prove just see how fast he learns the Force and lightsaber forms from the masters. By the end of the game the Exile easily defeats Dark Jedi (which are average Force users) and loads of Sith troopers. To claim that the Exile is an average Force user is ridicules and can mean only 2 things:

1 You didn't pay attention to what is said in the game.
2 You couldn't understand what is said in the game.

Apparently you don't understand the concept of gameplay mechanics either,a nd you didn't pay attention to the game either, since the exile was a SHE.

Uh, the game NEVER says the Exile was a she, that was later said by the developpers.

Your arguments are well thought out Darthsexy , except you only seem to be able to make relatively legible responses at best, you can't seem to make a logical argument even when we (metaphorically speaking) slap you in the face with sound reasoning.

You're grabbing at straws here, and I'm not just saying that (like a lot of posters tend to do).

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wouldn't it be you're? If you're going to concede an argument by pointing out spelling mistakes, make sure your spelling is correct, otherwise you look like a fool.

Nice job retard you missed the point again (you do that a lot). I said "at least, as I said we can form a sentence that makes sense." Do you see ANYTHING about spelling? PAY ATTENTION. WTF are you talking about? I haven't conceded shit, but again PAY ATTENTION.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Apparently you don't understand the concept of gameplay mechanics either,a nd you didn't pay attention to the game either, since the exile was a SHE.

In the game the Exile can either male or female. I consider him a male and I don't really count this canon about gender since it doesn't really change gameplay.

Darth Sexy, you completely ignored my points and said something that isn't even true. "Apparently you don't understand the concept of gameplay mechanics" no apparently you don't understand them. If the Exile is more powerful than normal Dark Jedi in the game than that obviously means that he is a above normal Dark Jedi. Why is it so difficult to understand that? He killed 3 Sith Lords (and 3 Jedi Counsel members if he's DS) He destroyed countless Droids, Sith troopes, Dark Jedi and bounty hunters. Isn't that enough of a testament to his power?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You've proven my point, thank you. There's nothing canon about Nihilus allegedly holding his ship up.

There is: Kotor 2. Kotor 2> Darthsaxy's bias and all round irrational "arguments"




Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Translation: I'm making an assertion and I can't back it up so I'm going to make up some baseless bullshit and pass it off as fact.

Translation: you have a small reasoning capacity at best. It's in the game, I didn't come up with the idea out of thin air, it's part of Kotor 2. So ponder that, if you can, and lets see you come back with the same stupid argument.





Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Once again, you don't know how debate objectively, nor how to debate at all, so don't pass your inabilities off as me being irrational.

Objectivity? When were you ever objective? Denying in-game ideas simply because you don't agree with them is objectivity, right?! Get out of here with this bs - you're the last person who should talk about objectivity.





Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Once again quality>quantity and raw force potential>all.

I don't care about some arbitrary idea like force potential, or some half assed baseless assertion like quality. I'm talking about knowledge, and Kreia has a ton of more knowledge than Exar Kun.










Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No no, Sidious' knowledge surpassed that of Yoda as well considering he knew the ways of the Jedi, so your point is defeated..

I don't care what you think, Sidious didn't have more knowledge of the force than Yoda, that's a ridiculous idea. Sidious was one of the most knowledgable Sith in history, he'd know about the Jedi obviously, but Yoda knew more about the force overall.






YOriginally posted by Darth Sexy
ou're right, but when arguing against you our AC, insults are just extra, neither one of you can debate.

Ya extra: an extra waste of time on your part. Your arguments are pretty weak to begin with, I'm just telling you not to expend energy where it doesn't help your already poor debating.

Originally posted by Allankles
There is: Kotor 2. Kotor 2> Darthsaxy's bias and all round irrational "arguments"
Says the terrible debater.







This coming from the guy who got wtfpwned in the Revan debate because he didn't like the storyline.













No, you're speculating based on your ignorance and stupidity, while I'm giving you facts and logical deduction. Either prove up or shut up twinkletoes.




Sidious had more techniques, Jedi and sith techniques, try again.







Again, this is coming from someone who I wtfpwned in the Revan debate because you chose to argue how bad the storyline is rather than argue logically about things that matter.

Originally posted by Allankles
Look at your rebuttals Darth Sexy or whoever it is that bothered to quote my posts; I state that Nihilus kept the internal atmosphere of his ship normal despite massive breaches in the hull, you say there were windows. Did you ever play through the Ravager level? As it's quite clear that many parts of the ship were exposed to open space, including the bridge.

Did you ever use the smallest bit of logic ? Really. This is the SW universe. Starships in the SW universe do have...what...shields ? OMG ! Blastdoors ? WTF ! As we've seen in RotS when Anakin and Obi-Wan enter Grievous ship both shields and security doors are capable of keeping the atmosphere inside a ship. So if the shields were working, there was no need to waste any concentration on keeping the air in. Hell...in fact it would be stupid to waste energy in keeping air in regions of the ship which were obviously not used and unimportant. Who would do something like that ?

And again I can only say: Had Nihilus used the force to keep the air inside the ship, it would have been released completely in the very same second in that he died. This did obviously not happen.



Woah. Where does KotoR 2 say he keeps his ship intact with his will / his force powers / anything else ? In fact the Exile and his friends enter the Ravager and plant bombs there which would be a totally useless action if they did suggest that the Ravager would simply be destroyed by the death of Nihilus since he "kept it together". The specifics of what he did to keep it intact are unknown. Maybe he told some engineer to repair the ship constantly ? Woah. That would be "keeping it intact" right ? And we should be logical ? Very funny.



Damn it. Considering that everyone and there mothers can use force drain, how does that make Nihilus "uber powerful" ? Sidious was capable of repeating his feat (planet draining). The Sith on Ambria that Thon did defeat (TOTJ era) did do the same. Ragnos sceptre is capable of performing something similar.
And there are defences against it (minimizing the own presence in the force) meaning that everyone capable of doing this (ranging from Tholme to DN Luke Skywalker) would kick Nihilus sorry ass across the place.

Yet I don't see how that matters in this thread. The Exile did just defeat Nihilus because of her natural resistance (hole in the force) against the force drain ability which wouldn't help her against Ulic.



Nope. Anything that can be learned rather fast is "basic". Any application of telekinesis is "basic use" of the force. Advanced force use would be force lightning, force storms - essentially everything that requires a certain technique and not just application of raw power.



This is really hilarious.
For you again: People in that time weren't trained from infancy on, meaning that Revan can have joined the Jedi Order just some years before the events shown in KotoR. Same goes for Kreia. On the other hand there were some people who were trained from infancy on, which might be true for Kun.

The problem is that their respective amount of training time is unknown, hence you can't compare them. Technically Kreia could have been a regular Jedi Knight when she trained Revan just a few years before KotoR 2 (both just having a few years of training) while Kun could have spent decades in training the Jedi arts before the events of TOTJ.

And it doesn't really matter. Kreia when training Revan did already suggest that he was more powerful than her ("heart of the force".
Obviously Revans raw power and his ambitions to learn new stuff (and his abilities to do so) did exceed that of Kreia. And actually the same can be said about Kun. He at least did advance from "Padawan" to Sith Lord capable of killing his master and constructing own Sith amulets in six months of time. And that can be enough time if you have a nice knowledge base. Hell...again I can only show Luke as example who did advance clearly between ESB and ROTJ and all he had was Obi-Wans diary.



The narrator says he had more knowledge than he could ever use. Got that know ? He simply did possess more knowledge than he could ever apply in his lifetime. And going by the sheer amount and variety of the sources for that knowledge he had (ranging from what Sadow left behind to the stuff he stole from Ossus) he might have been one of the most knowledgeable Sith in history.



Since when can knowledge be measured in years ? Stupid idea. If I can read twice as fast as you, I can archieve twice as much knowledge from books compared to you in the same amount of time. Such things are dependant on talent when talking about force powers or lightsaber abilities. Again I can only come up with Luke since he is the best example: In six years he went from somebody who didn't use the force to somebody able to beat Darth Vader. Notice how utterly Jedi Masters and entire groups of Jedi did fail to do that in Vader's past.



How is the fact that she wasn't able to use the force after that assault from Nihilus "speculation", hmm ? How is the fact that she even says herself that she was "stripped from her power" speculation ? A mere force push wouldn't cause effects like that. So my "interpretation" is no "interpretation" - it's simply a presentation of two single facts that say "force drain" in bolt, blinking letters.

Until now I really never found somebody stupid enough to argue that his wasn't a force drain given the evidence that it was...



Can you please explain this brillant, genious and absolutely stunning conclusion ? Average Jedi Knight without special abilities or training (Exile) VS Sith Lord equipped with a Dark Side amulet, offensive force powers and vast lightsaber abilities. Yet somehow, the average Jedi wins. Yeah. Nice logic, that is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EogIiuZI9PQ

Here Tobin says that he (Nihilus) holds it together.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Did you ever use the smallest bit of logic ? Really. This is the SW universe. Starships in the SW universe do have...what...shields ? OMG ! Blastdoors ? WTF ! As we've seen in RotS when Anakin and Obi-Wan enter Grievous ship both shields and security doors are capable of keeping the atmosphere inside a ship. So if the shields were working, there was no need to waste any concentration on keeping the air in. Hell...in fact it would be stupid to waste energy in keeping air in regions of the ship which were obviously not used and unimportant. Who would do something like that ?

And again I can only say: Had Nihilus used the force to keep the air inside the ship, it would have been released completely in the very same second in that he died. This did obviously not happen.



Woah. Where does KotoR 2 say he keeps his ship intact with his will / his force powers / anything else ? In fact the Exile and his friends enter the Ravager and plant bombs there which would be a totally useless action if they did suggest that the Ravager would simply be destroyed by the death of Nihilus since he "kept it together". The specifics of what he did to keep it intact are unknown. Maybe he told some engineer to repair the ship constantly ? Woah. That would be "keeping it intact" right ? And we should be logical ? Very funny.



Damn it. Considering that everyone and there mothers can use force drain, how does that make Nihilus "uber powerful" ? Sidious was capable of repeating his feat (planet draining). The Sith on Ambria that Thon did defeat (TOTJ era) did do the same. Ragnos sceptre is capable of performing something similar.
And there are defences against it (minimizing the own presence in the force) meaning that everyone capable of doing this (ranging from Tholme to DN Luke Skywalker) would kick Nihilus sorry ass across the place.

Yet I don't see how that matters in this thread. The Exile did just defeat Nihilus because of her natural resistance (hole in the force) against the force drain ability which wouldn't help her against Ulic.



Nope. Anything that can be learned rather fast is "basic". Any application of telekinesis is "basic use" of the force. Advanced force use would be force lightning, force storms - essentially everything that requires a certain technique and not just application of raw power.



This is really hilarious.
For you again: People in that time weren't trained from infancy on, meaning that Revan can have joined the Jedi Order just some years before the events shown in KotoR. Same goes for Kreia. On the other hand there were some people who were trained from infancy on, which might be true for Kun.

The problem is that their respective amount of training time is unknown, hence you can't compare them. Technically Kreia could have been a regular Jedi Knight when she trained Revan just a few years before KotoR 2 (both just having a few years of training) while Kun could have spent decades in training the Jedi arts before the events of TOTJ.

And it doesn't really matter. Kreia when training Revan did already suggest that he was more powerful than her ("heart of the force".
Obviously Revans raw power and his ambitions to learn new stuff (and his abilities to do so) did exceed that of Kreia. And actually the same can be said about Kun. He at least did advance from "Padawan" to Sith Lord capable of killing his master and constructing own Sith amulets in six months of time. And that can be enough time if you have a nice knowledge base. Hell...again I can only show Luke as example who did advance clearly between ESB and ROTJ and all he had was Obi-Wans diary.



The narrator says he had more knowledge than he could ever use. Got that know ? He simply did possess more knowledge than he could ever apply in his lifetime. And going by the sheer amount and variety of the sources for that knowledge he had (ranging from what Sadow left behind to the stuff he stole from Ossus) he might have been one of the most knowledgeable Sith in history.



Since when can knowledge be measured in years ? Stupid idea. If I can read twice as fast as you, I can archieve twice as much knowledge from books compared to you in the same amount of time. Such things are dependant on talent when talking about force powers or lightsaber abilities. Again I can only come up with Luke since he is the best example: In six years he went from somebody who didn't use the force to somebody able to beat Darth Vader. Notice how utterly Jedi Masters and entire groups of Jedi did fail to do that in Vader's past.



How is the fact that she wasn't able to use the force after that assault from Nihilus "speculation", hmm ? How is the fact that she even says herself that she was "stripped from her power" speculation ? A mere force push wouldn't cause effects like that. So my "interpretation" is no "interpretation" - it's simply a presentation of two single facts that say "force drain" in bolt, blinking letters.

Until now I really never found somebody stupid enough to argue that his wasn't a force drain given the evidence that it was...



Can you please explain this brillant, genious and absolutely stunning conclusion ? Average Jedi Knight without special abilities or training (Exile) VS Sith Lord equipped with a Dark Side amulet, offensive force powers and vast lightsaber abilities. Yet somehow, the average Jedi wins. Yeah. Nice logic, that is.

Thank you Nai, with Escape, Advent, and Lightsnake posting here rarely nowadays, logic seems to be lost.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Did you ever use the smallest bit of logic ? Really. This is the SW universe. Starships in the SW universe do have...what...shields ? OMG ! Blastdoors ? WTF ! As we've seen in RotS when Anakin and Obi-Wan enter Grievous ship both shields and security doors are capable of keeping the atmosphere inside a ship. So if the shields were working, there was no need to waste any concentration on keeping the air in. Hell...in fact it would be stupid to waste energy in keeping air in regions of the ship which were obviously not used and unimportant. Who would do something like that ?

And again I can only say: Had Nihilus used the force to keep the air inside the ship, it would have been released completely in the very same second in that he died. This did obviously not happen.

First of all there aren't any blast doors on the roof of the exposed bridge, or some of the rooms you have to go inside of, to place the protocon cores, so dumb argument again. Secondly, if you knew anything about ship tech in sci-fi you'd know that energy shields can't compensate for a breached hull, that's why they builds ships with you know... hulls.

Dumb argument 2 destroyed quite easily. If your hull is breached you have to get something to plug it, the Ravager's atmosphere remains normal despite the absence of any sought of "plug".

And I've already mentioned as you get to see below, Kotor 2 implicitly states that Nihilus did keep his ship intact, and looking at how the internal atmosphere stayed normal (in the bridge for instance) while it was exposed to open space, it's quite clearly understandable that Nihilus did keep the internal atmosphere of his ship normal by some unknown power and or technique. Should we go back to this stupid argument of yours, or will you finally get around to stop arguing over irrelevant points?


Originally posted by Borbarad

Woah. Where does KotoR 2 say he keeps his ship intact with his will / his force powers / anything else ?

See above^.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Damn it. Considering that everyone and there mothers can use force drain, how does that make Nihilus "uber powerful" ? Sidious was capable of repeating his feat (planet draining). The Sith on Ambria that Thon did defeat (TOTJ era) did do the same. Ragnos sceptre is capable of performing something similar.
And there are defences against it (minimizing the own presence in the force) meaning that everyone capable of doing this (ranging from Tholme to DN Luke Skywalker) would kick Nihilus sorry ass across the place.

According to you everyone and there mother can force drain an entire planet, right?! Nihilus is uber, his force drain speaks for itself, I don't need to write another sentence on this point.

YOriginally posted by Borbarad
et I don't see how that matters in this thread. The Exile did just defeat Nihilus because of her natural resistance (hole in the force) against the force drain ability which wouldn't help her against Ulic.

It was only brought up because someone mentioned Kun, doesn't matter, the Exile has more than enough qualities to take Ulic.



NYOriginally posted by Borbarad
ope. Anything that can be learned rather fast is "basic". Any application of telekinesis is "basic use" of the force. Advanced force use would be force lightning, force storms - essentially everything that requires a certain technique and not just application of raw power.

Oh brother! When have the specifics of what it entails to learn these techniques ever been written? Your talking out of your ass, I say "basic" is all a matter of interpretation, but that's just me.

As an example I'll point out that Jacen in Traitor was able to cast some form of lightning while in a rage, does that become a "basic" technique to you? Don't even bother with a response, because the answer doesn't matter. Please refrain from bringing up these frail arguments.




NYOriginally posted by Borbarad
This is really hilarious.
For you again: People in that time weren't trained from infancy on, meaning that Revan can have joined the Jedi Order just some years before the events shown in KotoR. Same goes for Kreia. On the other hand there were some people who were trained from infancy on, which might be true for Kun.

The problem is that their respective amount of training time is unknown, hence you can't compare them. Technically Kreia could have been a regular Jedi Knight when she trained Revan just a few years before KotoR 2 (both just having a few years of training) while Kun could have spent decades in training the Jedi arts before the events of TOTJ.

Most Jedi were trained from childhood even then, we see examples like the Exile (who can't remember his parents because he was taken by the Jedi as a child), Kreia herself implies that she never knew her parents, even when it comes to Revan she further implies that Revan was trained from childhood and she was his first master.

The Jedi from an early time realized the value of severing a child's ties to the family as early as possible, so as to make them more dedicated Jedi.

So your argument here is pure speculation. Kreia herself mentions that she was a Jedi historian and chronicler many years before Kotor 2 and that long ago (certainly more than Kun's 6 months) she followed Atris' path i.e. gathering sith and jedi holocrons to uncover secrets of the force.

Kreia is vastly more experienced than Kun and does posses more knowledge than Kun, she concerned herself with the pursuit of knowledge for many decades, this is indisputable. You're trying to argue that her experience as a Jedi was far less than her years suggest, this is quite obviously one of your weakest arguments.


And an average Jedi doesn't:-

End a civil war virtually single handedly

Dismantle a crime syndicate in a short time.

End a massive mercenary incursion on a colony world.

Defeat three powerful Sith Lord's and a Dark Jedi like Traya, Sion, Nihilus and Atris.

And lets not forget preventing the collapse of the Republic with these actions and paving the way for a new legacy of Jedi that would live on until the PT period.

Yeah Ulic was great, but the Exile is quite obviously a greater Jedi and has many talents to go along with that greatness.

Also, could you please shorten your overly long posts? Arguing with you is like reading through a book on librarians, which is to say it's almost a chore. I'm here to have irreverent discourse, please don't turn it into a thesis on basic and non basic force techniques.

And since when is Vrook the epitome of objectivity? He berated Revan, and Vandar flat out disagree with him. Nice that you included all that though.





The Exile has amnesia now? Where the hell did you get that from?



For what its worth the KOTOR comics show the Jedi adopting children into their ranks about two decades after the Great Sith Wars.




So she didn't beat him five times? Your making it sound like they sat on a couch and The Exile had a long discussion with him and told him to die.



Already been proved wrong, the point of the final battle was a test if she was strong to go to war with Revan, In this context Kreia has no clear reason to hold back, as she was testing and what would be the point of the test if she was holding back?



Since you can't actually harm Atris as Brianna and Atris tools her rather easily with force lightning we can assume it wasn't anything near a hard fought battle.





And owning a non force user in personal combat is impressive?



And Cay is now some how strong?




and?




I'm glad you somehow know the passage of time by looking at pictures. Not to mention Ulic is in a full run in one of the panels.




Because who wields a lightsaber other then Jedi? And you didn't mention Ulic was in extreme physical shape, and was as said a very accomplished lightsaber duelist, why wouldn't he have muscle memory?

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
And since when is Vrook the epitome of objectivity? He berated Revan, and Vandar flat out disagree with him. Nice that you included all that though.
What are you stupid? Not a few hours ago you were using the Jedi Masters' own words to somehow prove the exile learned all 7 forms. Double Standards much dumbass?








No dumbass, that's like saying if I beat Malak within 20 seconds, that the canon fight was easy for Revan. Unfortunately we don't know HOW the exile defeated her opponents, nor how Revan beat Malak. Shut up with your gameplay.




And she wasn't in a murderous rage to kill the exile either. Think Vodo's second fight with Kun.






Yea, it's Mandalore dumbass.






How about you concede the argument because you just look ridiculous with your contradictions and double standards.

or Vrook even though he out right stated he didn't like the Exile admitted that:

"Your form is a little sloppy but you've got it."

Nice Job at reading though.




Logical deduction tells us but thats far above your intellect level, not that it matters all that matters is she did with either the force or saber, and since force power is directly tied into how well you perform with a saber and how good you are it doesn't really matter which.




She kinda was when she screams about how there can be no mercy when you offer to redeem her, after you beat her the first time, Nice Job at paying attention though.


And? Force Sensitive (especially one of Ulics caliber) > Non force sensitive almost any day.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx

or Vrook even though he out right stated he didn't like the Exile admitted that:

"Your form is a little sloppy but you've got it."

Nice Job at reading though.
Nice job of proving that the exile was somehow adept at 6 forms.. Dumbass..




This coming from someone who just got wtfpwned once again.. Lying to yourself only hurts yourself Betty.






AHAHA..Idiot.



Wow, your argument is done.

Was I trying to..







I could point out the logical fallacy but that would be a waste of my time.





Riveting response.





So wait someone of Ulics calibaer in the force is no match for a force sensitive. Way to go.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Was I trying to..
You claimed that she was adept at 6 forms, stop contradicting yourself, it's sad.








Of course you were, your argument is dead.









K thanks for conceding the argument dumbass.

I don't know, but didn't Boba fend of Vader with a saber for 3 pages in a comic?

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
And since when is Vrook the epitome of objectivity? He berated Revan, and Vandar flat out disagree with him. Nice that you included all that though.

Vandar didn't disagree with him. He just mentions that the formation of force bonds the Exile is capable off is something special. Vrook's statement is not contradicted. So the Exile is just an average Jedi with some special abilities which won't help in actual combat.



Did you even play KotoR 2 ? You do realize that the Exile has forgotten everything from her early life to the point she awakes aside of Kreia ? Yes ? That's called "amnesia".



Somehow I can remember to have written that some people did join the Jedi Order as children. My point was that we don't know in what age Revan, Kreia, the Exile and Kun did join the ranks of the Jedi (for this debate) did join the ranks of the Jedi Order. I was merely pointing out that the procedure of accepting only young children as candidates for Jedi training was introduced with the Ruusan reformation. Quite clearly the TOTJ / KotoR era Jedi Order did accept much older candidates (Nomi Sunrider, the Quel-Droma brothers etc.)



Again you're making the misstake to hand in gameplay as canon. Again I can only tell you to use some common sense. We do know that Sion can be just defeated by convincing him to give up. So what most likely happened is that the Exile and him duelled and the Exile kept talking to him during that duel until the point he finally is convinced to give up.

It's pretty much apparent that the Exile was not able to beat Sion in a normal fight, as Kreia pretty much says that when the Exile first confronts Sion on Korriban. But suddenly she's capable of doing it ? Not to mention that it doesn't make much sense to argue with somebody if you can easily chop him into pieces with a lightsaber. Even if Sion keeps his body together with his will power and the force - I doubt he would be able to do much after having his limbs or his head removed with a lightsaber.



Oh. You mean as Sidious was testing Anakin's strength in the duel with Dooku when he told Dooku not to kill Anakin right before ? Damn it. As it seems you don't necesseraly have to kill somebody or have to be willing to do so, to test that person's strength. And Kreia had enough reasons not to kill the Exile.



Owning Mandalore, who is the top fighter of a entire race of warriors in melee combat and that without actually using the force is impressive.



Kun definitly is and this seems to be the reason why you ignored my comment on him, huh ? Nice try.



Common sense and logic are so easy to use. Why don't you do so ?
Ulic and Sylvar do obviously fight their way through Ulic place. Then they continue their fight outside up to the point where they are finally reaching that little edge. I wonder how it can not have taken minutes. Aside of that it's pretty irrelevant. Normally people who can't use the force go down against Jedi in the matter of seconds when trying to compete with them in melee combat.



I was talking about defeating a Jedi in melee combat. You know: The force can boost up actual physical strength, speed and so on. You don't necesserily need a lightsaber to do that.

And yes. Ulic was in good physical shape and he was an accomplished lightsaber duellist. That's already more than what we can say about the Exile.

Yes the Exile was an average Force user before the Mandalorian Wars but after Malachor V he gained the ability to drain the power of someone after he kills them. At the end of KotOR II the Exile becomes as strong as Revan. Just like him the Exile was strong enough to defeat many Sith troopers and Dark Jedi. How can you call a man (or a woman) who kills three Sith lords (two of which are uber-powerful) an average Jedi? You can't because he isn't average. Everything in the game states otherwise just listen to the Jedi Masters on Dantooine.

And it's obvious the Kreia wasn't holding back. Why would she? She's a Grey Jedi but she has adopted many of the teaching of the Jedi and the Sith. Have you listened to the dialog before the final confrontation? It's quite clear she wants to fight the Exile in the Sith tradition of master vs. apprentice.

"Even if Sion keeps his body together with his will power and the force - I doubt he would be able to do much after having his limbs or his head removed with a lightsaber." Neither his head nor his limbs would fall off his body because he keeps his entire body together. This has been stated by the medical officer on the Harbinger.

"Did you even play KotoR 2 ? You do realize that the Exile has forgotten everything from her early life to the point she awakes aside of Kreia ? Yes ? That's called "amnesia"." WTF?! The Exile never had amnesia he only can't remember the events that led to him being on Peragus (because he was drugged by the HK-50). Pay more attention to the dialog of the game.

"Again you're making the mistake to hand in gameplay as canon. Again I can only tell you to use some common sense. We do know that Sion can be just defeated by convincing him to give up. So what most likely happened is that the Exile and him duelled and the Exile kept talking to him during that duel until the point he finally is convinced to give up." Except that they talk every time after the Exile defeats him. Again you need to pay more attention to the game. You can't say that something happened different from the game because you don't like it.

pwned

Originally posted by the_satan32
Yes the Exile was an average Force user before the Mandalorian Wars but after Malachor V he gained the ability to drain the power of someone after he kills them.

First. The Exile is canonically female. That would be "she".
Second. How would an ability that enables the Exile to drain the power of somebody already killed in the actual fight ? Irrelevant.



Oh. The Exile does ? Proof ?



Oh yes ? You mean the remains of Revan's destroyed Sith Empire ? And the Exile did so while being accompanied with a nice amount of friends. I don't know how this is impressive. And again we're talking about gameplay related stuff here. Just an example. If you do possess a stealth level high enough you can simply stealth through the entire Trayus Academy only killing two people: Sion and Kreia. Now did the Exile canonically kill the amount X of Dark Jedi and Sith troopers or did this not happen since there are other ways to solve certain situations ?



As if "killing a Sith Lord" is anything special per definition. Padawan Kenobi managed to do that in TPM (Maul). Anakin did in RotS (Dooku). Vader did in RotJ (Sidious). There is quite a large list of people who did sucessfully deal with Sith Lords - including Ulic who did survive against Kun. The question is: How powerful and skilled with weapons were those three Sith Lords in KotoR 2 ? Compareable to Exar Kun who had more knowledge than he could ever use and was definetly a prodigy when it came to lightsaber combat ? Even above him which better should be the case if you want to make a convincing argument for the Exile ?

Again. Kun in just six months (and sorry - that's exactly the time that Revan had to study his Sith knowledge in case nobody did notice that) managed to become proficient enough in Sith Magic to use it to freeze the entire Senate. He became proficient enough in Sith Alchemy to construct his own Sith Amulet and creating some unique new beasts. Going by Nadd's comments on Sadow's knowledge and how he wanted to use it (creating a completely new body for him) and the fact that Kun did actually study that knowledge, he must have a damn huge amount of Sith Lore at hands. Then Kun totally wasted two century old Jedi Masters with apparent ease, resisted one of the most powerful - if not the most powerful - light side force attack applied against him by a Jedi who actually killed ancient Sith with it. This aside from being a lightsaber prodigy able to overcome a 600 year old Jedi Master and develop a new unique weapon with a corresponding style in just a few months.

Yet Ulic was capable of stalemating Kun in the lightsaber department and since it's rather impossible to stalemate somebody who does possess a far greater amount of force powers I think we can suggest that, at the point of their duel, Kun and Ulic were indeed equals. Where did the Exile do anything close to that ?



Can you please explain to me why Kreia should want to kill the Exile ? Kreia did obviously want the Exile to go and find / aid Revan. Not possible for somebody that is dead. Kreia was proud because the development of the Exile. Did you have a look at the dialog after the confrontation ? Where Kreia (in one possible answer) actually says that she's tired on being dependent on the force and by killing her the Exile would do her a favor ? Doesn't appear to me as if Kreia did really want to win that fight by killing the Exile.

And Sith tradition ? Since when can a lightsider be part of any Sith tradition ? And since when does the master challenge the apprentice ? Normally that is the other way around exactly.



Yeah. I'm pretty sure that the medical officer on the Harbinger did try to remove some of Sion's limbs or his head to come to this conclusion. For somebody who "holds his entire body together" the guy is clearly missing to much skin (chest / face) not even talking about one of his eyes. Apparently it's pretty well possible to remove pieces of him. Anything else would be hilarious if you think about it. I mean hey...what should he do if somebody cuts his arm off ? Force pull it back to his body ? Levitate it around ?

The medical officer on the Harbinger just says that Sion's condition is actually impossible since he should be dead considering all the broken bones and other injuries. That doesn't mean the Sion won't die if somebody would actually remove his head with a nice lightsaber cut.



Yeah. Let's see. Kreia has to teach the Exile the most basic force powers despite the fact that the Exile did go through some nice amount of Jedi training. The Exile doesn't seem to remember her own trial before the Jedi Council until actually finding a recording of it. And she also doesn't recognize Bao-Dur when first meeting him again. Until you think it's normal to forget everything that happened just a few years in the past, I would call that "amnesia".



What point about "gameplay" was it you didn't get ?
Unless you want to tell me that Sion is the reincarnation of the Black Knight from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" I don't see how a "cut him into pieces and after this have a nice talk with him" situation should actually work. On the same level you could also say that the Exile can take multiple lightsaber hits right in her face without sustaining any injury (rather hilarious) which is pretty much the case for every possible opponent in the KotoR games. As you might have realized almost every hit taken from a lightsaber does either cause some massive amount of damage if not killing somebody right on the spot.

Really. You need to apply some realism to the display of certain situations within the game. The Exile had to run from Sion on Kreia's order when first confronting him. Yet some days (weeks) later she should be able to totally defeat (meaning basically "kill" the same guy serveral times in a row ? Suggesting that the Exile did actually duel him and during that duel finally convinced him to give up is actually more reasonable than thinking she did bring him to a point near death 250 times in a row before reaching the desired outcome.

"First. The Exile is canonically female. That would be "she""
It doesn't matter the story is the same.

"Second. How would an ability that enables the Exile to drain the power of somebody already killed in the actual fight ? Irrelevant."
Because the Exile killed alot of people on Kotor II (as some fights are unavoidable). The masters state that the reason has grown stronger is that is because he feeds on death.

"Oh. The Exile does ? Proof ?"
"You are greater than any I have ever trained"- Kreia/Traya and considering that Kreia trained Nihilus, Sion and the strongest of all Revan that's quite a statement isn't it.

"As if "killing a Sith Lord" is anything special per definition. Padawan Kenobi managed to do that in TPM (Maul). Anakin did in RotS (Dooku). Vader did in RotJ (Sidious)."
And these are average force users?

Can you please explain to me why Kreia should want to kill the Exile ? Kreia did obviously want the Exile to go and find / aid Revan. Not possible for somebody that is dead. Kreia was proud because the development of the Exile. Did you have a look at the dialog after the confrontation ? Where Kreia (in one possible answer) actually says that she's tired on being dependent on the force and by killing her the Exile would do her a favor ? Doesn't appear to me as if Kreia did really want to win that fight by killing the Exile.

"And Sith tradition ? Since when can a lightsider be part of any Sith tradition ? And since when does the master challenge the apprentice ? Normally that is the other way around exactly."
I suggest you go and play the game again. Kreia was a grey jedi not a lightsider as I said before she doesn't believe in the Jedi code but unlike the Sith doesn't believe in destruction for it's own sake. And since some of her teachings are derived from the Sith it's only natural that she faces her apprentice. If he can't defeat her than how could he be any help to Revan? To claim that Kreia was holding back and letting the Exile kill her is against her philosophy (which you would have known if payed attention to the game). When you try to help someone what does Kreia say that helping them is deny them the fight and thus weaking them and cheapening their victory. If Kreia let the Exile defeat her than she would be cheapening his victory. It's against her philosophy.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure that the medical officer on the Harbinger did try to remove some of Sion's limbs or his head to come to this conclusion. For somebody who "holds his entire body together" the guy is clearly missing to much skin (chest / face) not even talking about one of his eyes. Apparently it's pretty well possible to remove pieces of him. Anything else would be hilarious if you think about it. I mean hey...what should he do if somebody cuts his arm off ? Force pull it back to his body ? Levitate it around ?

"The medical officer on the Harbinger just says that Sion's condition is actually impossible since he should be dead considering all the broken bones and other injuries. That doesn't mean the Sion won't die if somebody would actually remove his head with a nice lightsaber cut."
She states she doesn't know what is keeps him together.

"Yeah. Let's see. Kreia has to teach the Exile the most basic force powers despite the fact that the Exile did go through some nice amount of Jedi training. The Exile doesn't seem to remember her own trial before the Jedi Council until actually finding a recording of it. And she also doesn't recognize Bao-Dur when first meeting him again. Until you think it's normal to forget everything that happened just a few years in the past, I would call that "amnesia"."
Yeah let's see Kreia has to teach the Exile about the Force becasue he is stripped from it. Yes the Exile remembers it but doesn't know what the masters said after he left. He recognises Bao-Dur and laiter in game there is a conversation about Malachor V.

What point about "gameplay" was it you didn't get ?
Unless you want to tell me that Sion is the reincarnation of the Black Knight from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" I don't see how a "cut him into pieces and after this have a nice talk with him" situation should actually work. On the same level you could also say that the Exile can take multiple lightsaber hits right in her face without sustaining any injury (rather hilarious) which is pretty much the case for every possible opponent in the KotoR games. As you might have realized almost every hit taken from a lightsaber does either cause some massive amount of damage if not killing somebody right on the spot.

"Really. You need to apply some realism to the display of certain situations within the game. The Exile had to run from Sion on Kreia's order when first confronting him. Yet some days (weeks) later she should be able to totally defeat (meaning basically "kill" the same guy serveral times in a row ? Suggesting that the Exile did actually duel him and during that duel finally convinced him to give up is actually more reasonable than thinking she did bring him to a point near death 250 times in a row before reaching the desired outcome."
Or maybe Sion is impressed that the Exile keeps going and that Sion keeps losing. After every loss Sion becomes less and less sure of him self that's the point of the battle.

Rofl, pwned

Originally posted by the_satan32
It doesn't matter the story is the same.


No. It's not. For example Brianna only joins the Exile if the Exile is a male character (which wasn't the case - the Exile is female) aside from the fact that some people develop some feelings for her. Including Sion: "I hate you because you crawl within my head as she does, but your presence holds no thoughts, no teachings, you are just... there, unspoken. I hate you because you are beautiful to me. And in that weakness lies death." (Sion to the Exile)



As a matter of fact: No.
"You are a cipher, forming bonds, leeching the life of others, siphoning their will and dominating them." (Vrook about the Exile) The Exile just feads of the force powers / life force of people close to her means she has to form some bonds to them before being capable of doing so. That surely doesn't apply on her opponents in the game. In fact the only people the Exile "drains" are the Jedi Master if you chose to play the game as Dark Jedi. Unfortunatelly, this isn't canon.



Third party commenting somebodies powers. Fallible source. Aside of the fact that Kreia gives that statement when being up to send the Exile to a mission to the Unknown Regions where the Exile does possibly have to deal with the Ancient Sith. That's more cheering the Exile up than anything else.



Wrong question. The right question would be if those are "average Jedi". Padawan Kenobi definetly is pretty average, yes. At least compared to the "outstanding" people of his era (Yoda, Mace, Anakin). And as you might have noticed Ulic is surely no average Jedi.



With "lightsider" I meant the Exile. And it's still not usual for a master to challenge his apprentice.

And please. The philosophy of a Grey Jedi technically is that the end does justify the means. Now ask yourself what was Kreia's goal ? She wanted the death of the the force - only being capable of bringing that: The Exile. She wanted somebody to aid Revan in his quest in the Unknown Regions. Only person who can do it: The Exile.
Now how would a dead Exile be of any help for Kreia / Revan ? I'm pretty sure that Kreia did give the Exile a nice fight. Holding back (meaning: Not to kill somebody in a fight) doesn't mean you're "helping" them. You just don't use "last resort" actions as instakills. That is something Luke Skywalker almost always does when confronting Dark Siders. Kreia would be pretty stupid to try and kill the Exile since the Exile is her only hope to fulfill his "higher goals".



Woah. And where is the proof that limbs will keep attached to his body when somebody actually cuts them off with a lightsaber ? Yeah. Thanks. It doesn't exist.



No. The point of the battle is that the Exile does utilize persuation to turn Sion against his own beliefs. In fact she tells him pretty much that Kreia doesn't have any use for him any longer and that he can leave his pain and hatred behind by giving up the force. Hence his final words: "I am glad to finally have peace... at last."

And that aside I still don't see a convincing argument for the Exile being able to defeat Ulic.

"No. It's not. For example Brianna only joins the Exile if the Exile is a male character (which wasn't the case - the Exile is female) aside from the fact that some people develop some feelings for her. Including Sion: "I hate you because you crawl within my head as she does, but your presence holds no thoughts, no teachings, you are just... there, unspoken. I hate you because you are beautiful to me. And in that weakness lies death." (Sion to the Exile)"

It doesn't change the story. If the Exile is female will Sion stop fighting the Exile? No he won't. If Disciple joins the party instead of the hand maiden will he run to help in the fight against Darth Nihilus? Again no.

"As a matter of fact: No.
"You are a cipher, forming bonds, leeching the life of others, siphoning their will and dominating them." (Vrook about the Exile) The Exile just feads of the force powers / life force of people close to her means she has to form some bonds to them before being capable of doing so. That surely doesn't apply on her opponents in the game. In fact the only people the Exile "drains" are the Jedi Master if you chose to play the game as Dark Jedi. Unfortunately, this isn't canon."

Wrong. Zez-Kai Ell stays (on Dantooine) "You must have noticed as you fought on all these different planets killing hungreds only to become more and more powerful. Why do you think that is ?" Wookieepedia confirms this: "She was able to gain greater power through all the deaths she caused, which, as the Jedi Council believed, was a result of her being a "wound" in the Force." You may not trust Wookiepedia but you cannot deny what is stated in the game itself.

"Third party commenting somebodies powers. Fallible source. Aside of the fact that Kreia gives that statement when being up to send the Exile to a mission to the Unknown Regions where the Exile does possibly have to deal with the Ancient Sith. That's more cheering the Exile up than anything else. "

Third party? Yes but this third party has been a master of Nihilus, Sion, Revan and the Exile so she knows what she's talking about.

"And please. The philosophy of a Grey Jedi technically is that the end does justify the means. Now ask yourself what was Kreia's goal ? She wanted the death of the the force - only being capable of bringing that: The Exile. She wanted somebody to aid Revan in his quest in the Unknown Regions. Only person who can do it: The Exile.
Now how would a dead Exile be of any help for Kreia / Revan ? I'm pretty sure that Kreia did give the Exile a nice fight. Holding back (meaning: Not to kill somebody in a fight) doesn't mean you're "helping" them. You just don't use "last resort" actions as instakills. That is something Luke Skywalker almost always does when confronting Dark Siders. Kreia would be pretty stupid to try and kill the Exile since the Exile is her only hope to fulfill his "higher goals"."

What I meant with "Grey Jedi" is that she doesn't belong to either the Jedi or the Sith and neither to the Light or Dark sides. You are again ignoring that Kreia has her own philosophy. Why would she even bother with Exile if she is powerful enough that can fight him without using all her power (holding back)? She can just go and help Revan herself. It's obvious that Kreia wants the Exile to fight her and she makes it quite clear that if the Exile doesn't kill her she will kill him (don't ignore something that has been stated in the game). But it is pointless to tell you this since Kreia wouldn't give him the win without him earning it. Why? because for Kreia everyone has to earn their victories that's why when you do something kind (like giving money or saving someone) she berates you for it and in most cases you lose influence with her. If you go around killing people for no reason you will again lose influence because destruction for it own sake is also against her philosophy. I have stated before that to her it would be like she cheapened his victory and made his struggle pointless.

"Woah. And where is the proof that limbs will keep attached to his body when somebody actually cuts them off with a lightsaber ? Yeah. Thanks. It doesn't exist."

Have you seen Sion? His entire body is in cuts and after the examination of the medical officer she states that there are deep fractures in his bones and that she doesn't know what is keeping him together.

Play the game again and pay attention.

Kreia brings back Hanharr from death as well, after Mira has killed him. At least he was near death.

Originally posted by the_satan32
It doesn't change the story. If the Exile is female will Sion stop fighting the Exile? No he won't. If Disciple joins the party instead of the hand maiden will he run to help in the fight against Darth Nihilus? Again no.


Sion does himself say his attraction to the Exile is a weakness and he senses (his own) death in said weakness. I wonder how this doesn't matter. And for Nihilus: Having Mandalore and Visas helping out in that fight is already enough, don't you think so ?



Again. It's the killing of that person which might give her a temporary power boost but how exactly should that make her stronger ? If anything she could have received some very minor boosts in terms of force energy (which minor I mean that even the game doesn't realize them in the form of additional force energy everytime you slay an opponent).

That being said the only "viable" sources for power would be other fully trained Jedi and the Sith Lords. As the Exile canonically didn't slay the Jedi Masters, didn't "slay" Sion and wasn't able to receive power from Nihilus (seen when Nihilus tries to train her and is weakened) - the only viable source for power would be Kreia herself. So I wonder where this "gift" is of any matter in a match of Ulic VS the Exile, especially when Ulic did already start with being an exceptional student of the force when the Exile started as "average Jedi".



It's nice how you simply ignored what I've actually written. Kreia does admit in the end that she did love the Exile and yet she still wanted the Exile to join Revan. As I said: This statement was most likely done to cheer the Exile up. Aside of that: How would Kreia know the full extend of Revan's power ? She did recognize him as a Sith Lord and wasn't really close to him for all we know during that time. Yet Malak in the end of KotoR does say that Revan had become more powerful than he was ever before.



No. She can not go and help Revan herself because she's so easily affected through the Dark Side. She doesn't even dare to leave the ship when the group visits Korriban because of that. How should she stay "tuned" in a place filled with Ancient Sith ? She wanted to die. That's why she's bothering with the Exile.



How would the victory be pointless if Kreia wasn't willing to give the Exile all she could ? The Exile did practically earn everything at the same moment she managed to defeat Nihilus, which Kreia herself wasn't capable of. It's not as if I said that Kreia simply stood there and did let the Exile kill her easily. Obviously that wasn't the case. Yet how should Kreia be able to actually kill a person who she loved, as she did admit herself after the fight ? For the sake of her philosophy which in this circumstances would have let her a) kill a beloved being that was b) her only hope for archieving the goals she had ? That's illogical.



Oh my. Did you ever suffer from a broken bone ? If you break your arm: Does it fall off instantly ? Obviously not. If your skin is burned, does that mean your body falls apart ? I don't think so. Sion kept the overall structure of his body intact using his willpower. Yet he still haven't answer how he would be able to keep limbs or his head attached to his body if somebody cuts them off. And he doesn't have any wounds on his body that would result in his body parts falling off if he stopped with that influence. Or did he fall into pieces after finally being defeated by the Exile ? He just drops dead on the ground. Using your logic he should have ended up in different corners of the room after the Exile sliced him into pieces multiple times.



Learn how to use some logic and common sense. Or at least how to use the quote function on this board.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Vrook: Today I caught her in a heated argument with my Padawan! Her Master refuses to properly discipline... (static) ...I want to know what action you intend!
Vandar: Vrook, I respect your wisdom, but it is not your concern.
Vrook: But... (static) uncontrolled! (static)... whatever the other Padawans see her do, they are quick to do the same... (static) other students dislike her intensely!
Vandar: True, an average student of the Force... (static) but with a unique strength... (static) is a natural leader...
Vrook: I strongly disagree... (static) mediocre Jedi... (static) lust for power! (static) ...will lead to the dark side! Furthermore it... (static, cuts off)


Actually the exact quote was mediocre Jedi from Vrook, but thats besides the point. Lets look at the time of when the quote was made, since we don't know and for the sake of argument I'll assume its right before the Mando Wars started, or at least the first Jedi involvement it was 3963 BBY, The Exile makes her return to known space in 3951, your seriously forming an opinion on a character who under goes multiple power ups using a 12 year old quote.

Oh my. Vrook calls the Exile a mediocre Jedi. Vandar goes and calls her average (overall) but equipped with a unique ability (force bonds). This is effectively all that matters. Ulic was descriped as an outstanding combatant even before he started his Jedi training and when he did, he was again recognized as being outstanding among the other Jedi students of that time. The point is where both of them start off.

The Exile starts as average Jedi with a special ability that doesn't have any effects on actual combat. Ulic starts as a prodigeous student in the Jedi ways. They did both went to some adventures, fighting, wars and so on but the point is that Ulic had the better starting position and actually far better possibilities to develop compared to the Exile.

The facts always remain the same. The Exile was nothing special before he disappearance. And after she returned to the Galaxy she just became special because her force connection did come back. Yet what did she do that was so great that it puts her above Ulic ? She was not capable of defeating Nihilus on her own. She was not capable of defeating Sion in normal combat (in fact Kreia tells her to run when first confronting him). Yet all people she confronts were obviously not on par with somebody like Revan in terms of power and combat skills who in turn is weaker than Exar Kun in his prime. So how is she going to defeat the guy who was the only being capable of stalemating Exar Kun ?



Oh my. While KotoR is a nice game it's still rather limited in actually showing things like they happened. You can't expect 100 % realism from a game. Now does it really make sense to you that somebody has to be cut down and then comes up with some talking, just to be cut down again - this being repeated five times ? Of course I saw him being cut down. The point is that (imaging this like a scene from a SW movie) it would make more sense that they were talking either while fighting or after the Exile did land an successful attack on Sion. Something like Luke and Vader in ESB. You actually don't pause a fight completely just to exchange two lines of dialog and then continue the fight as if nothing has happened.



See my last post. That won't explain a massive gain in power as she didn't destroy powerful opponents (force wise) during her journey throughout the Galaxy. Simply have a look at Nihilus. He zapped a planet filled with force users empty and still is defeatable when he should actually have turned into some godlike being untouchable by anybody since he had the power of thousand of Jedi and millions of Miraluka. Yet obviously that isn't the case. Kreia even says that "There is no strength" in Nihilus ever growing hunger.



The point of the test would be if Anakin is actually emotioally enough to really strike Dooku down. The same thing is done with Luke in RotJ but he, unlike his father, refuses to do so...hence he's useless for the Emperor and Sidious decides to kill him. He obviously knew before the fight that Luke is stronger than Vader as he knew before the fight that Anakin is capable of defeating Dooku. He knew their powers better than anybody else.

cont...

...cont.



Was defeating your own argument willfully done or was that just some mistake on your sight. As you said: Kreia did spent almost every waking minute with the Exile and already knew how powerful the Exile was. So what should be the point of testing that strength again ? Kreia basically knows the result of that "test" before coming up with it. As I said: Kreia did want to fight the Exile because she didn't want to live any longer as she has grown tired of relying on the force which she did hate. That's what she says herself after the Exile did actually defeat her. Yet she did want to prepare the Exile for the journey into the outer regions once again. She did need that personal confrontation but I still don't see why she should have wanted to kill the Exile. Aside from the fact that she must have known that she couldn't do that it would have destroyed all effort she did put into the Exile.



What desperate measures to kill ? She took desperate measures to ensure that the Exile will kill her / mortally wound her. She's eager not to survive this fight but that still doesn't mean she did want to kill the Exile.



Yeah. I'm sure that Kreia is uber skilled in the art of lightsaber combat fencing with her offhand as Sion did already took her main weapon hand off.



I wonder why Kreia did simply kept healing herself in the fight with the Exile if she absolutely wanted to kill the Exile then. Ups.

Aside of that Luke was capable to reanimate himself, get poisoned air out of his lungs and heals at least one almost mortal wound while being knocked of in the first book of the Callista trilogy. Then we have Cil'gal who obviously also has vast healing abilties considering how she cured Mon Mothma.

Aside of that, Kreia is still not compareable to somebody like Exar Kun. Moving objects independant from each other ? Luke was capable of doing this after some days or weeks of training under Yoda (several stones, R2D2 in ESB). Cloaking oneself in the force ? Asajj Ventress was capable of doing that before she even received training by Dooku (seen when she sneaks up to Dooku in the CW cartoons). Actually Kreia's most impressive feat is to kill the Jedi Masters on Dantooine which was pretty nice - no argument there. However...Kun managed to do pretty much the same to Odan Urr who, at this time, was one of the most powerful individuals in the Jedi Order. That aside from tossing people like Sylvar and Aleema around like ragdolls with his force abilities.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
How do we know he didn't use the force passively to enhance his, physical strength, speed and agility to levels Mandalor couldn't match. As a matter of fact isn't that what he did when he cleaved through Mandalores weapon?

Since that wasn't an option when the TOTJ comics were written as the fighting was based on the craptastic choreography of the OT where nobody does actually exhibit superhuman speed in a duel and were superhuman strength is just given to Vader because of his cyborg body.



Oh my. When Kun did go to fight Ulic he had already destroyed Nadd's spirit and read through whatever Sadow left behind. He also did defeat Vodo at that point in time already and he was capable of simply blasting Aleema aside as if she were nothing. After that he does what to improve his power ? He obviously is busy designing his new weapon, the corresponding fighting style, teaching some people and have some nice war going on. But I didn't see him doing actually "training" much after his duel with Ulic.



The point is that he was fighting an enraged Jedi. Now look at what happens when Jedi that lost control do enter actual combat. Luke kicks Vaders sorry ass across the place in seconds, Anakin does the same with Dooku pretty much. Ulic pretty much did the same to Cay just before. Now given the natural advantages of a force user over a non-force user (reflexes, minor forsight and so on) it's pretty impressive that he lasted more than seconds. And of course he did run away at one point. He's still shown to defend against Sylvar who obviously did come to kill him over a rather long time.



Yeah. The deadliest man in the Galaxy which later did become Mandalore. Now you can judge how impressive it was that Ulic did actually defeat the Mandalore at a time where the Mandalorians where in their prime and not on the edge of extinction as they were in Jango Fett's time.



Actually those people in the TOTJ comics are all pretty damn brutes. Kun simply pushing Sylvar down was especially funny.



I guess that doesn't apply to me as I'm seven years older than you and don't have ego problems.



Erm. Actually Kreia says it cannot be taught but it can be gained through instinct and EXPERIENCING it. So obviously it can be learned and somehow obviously Nihilus as well as Kreia did learn it.



The long ago is still no exact definition and aside of that I already told you why it doesn't matter.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Sion does himself say his attraction to the Exile is a weakness and he senses (his own) death in said weakness. I wonder how this doesn't matter. And for Nihilus: Having Mandalore and Visas helping out in that fight is already enough, don't you think so ?



Again. It's the killing of that person which might give her a temporary power boost but how exactly should that make her stronger ? If anything she could have received some very minor boosts in terms of force energy (which minor I mean that even the game doesn't realize them in the form of additional force energy everytime you slay an opponent).

That being said the only "viable" sources for power would be other fully trained Jedi and the Sith Lords. As the Exile canonically didn't slay the Jedi Masters, didn't "slay" Sion and wasn't able to receive power from Nihilus (seen when Nihilus tries to train her and is weakened) - the only viable source for power would be Kreia herself. So I wonder where this "gift" is of any matter in a match of Ulic VS the Exile, especially when Ulic did already start with being an exceptional student of the force when the Exile started as "average Jedi".



It's nice how you simply ignored what I've actually written. Kreia does admit in the end that she did love the Exile and yet she still wanted the Exile to join Revan. As I said: This statement was most likely done to cheer the Exile up. Aside of that: How would Kreia know the full extend of Revan's power ? She did recognize him as a Sith Lord and wasn't really close to him for all we know during that time. Yet Malak in the end of KotoR does say that Revan had become more powerful than he was ever before.



No. She can not go and help Revan herself because she's so easily affected through the Dark Side. She doesn't even dare to leave the ship when the group visits Korriban because of that. How should she stay "tuned" in a place filled with Ancient Sith ? She wanted to die. That's why she's bothering with the Exile.



How would the victory be pointless if Kreia wasn't willing to give the Exile all she could ? The Exile did practically earn everything at the same moment she managed to defeat Nihilus, which Kreia herself wasn't capable of. It's not as if I said that Kreia simply stood there and did let the Exile kill her easily. Obviously that wasn't the case. Yet how should Kreia be able to actually kill a person who she loved, as she did admit herself after the fight ? For the sake of her philosophy which in this circumstances would have let her a) kill a beloved being that was b) her only hope for archieving the goals she had ? That's illogical.



Oh my. Did you ever suffer from a broken bone ? If you break your arm: Does it fall off instantly ? Obviously not. If your skin is burned, does that mean your body falls apart ? I don't think so. Sion kept the overall structure of his body intact using his willpower. Yet he still haven't answer how he would be able to keep limbs or his head attached to his body if somebody cuts them off. And he doesn't have any wounds on his body that would result in his body parts falling off if he stopped with that influence. Or did he fall into pieces after finally being defeated by the Exile ? He just drops dead on the ground. Using your logic he should have ended up in different corners of the room after the Exile sliced him into pieces multiple times.



Learn how to use some logic and common sense. Or at least how to use the quote function on this board.

Where exactly is it stated that the boost is temporary? Nowhere the boost is permanent. That's why it is such a great power. You have not provided any evidence to support your statement while I and others such as xxXAcStylesXxx have provided plenty of evidence to support our points. Until you do I don't see why I or anyone else should trust your opinion on the Exile's power.

The Exile did slay Sion it's just that he keeps coming back. You keep claiming that the Exile was talking to Sion during their duel but there is no evidence supporting your claim. Truth is that they talked between duels. That has been shown in the game your opinion cannot override what has been shown and stated in the game. Unless someone breaks Sion's will he can't be killed. I'm sure Ulic Qel Droma could break his will but if he doesn't than he can't win. In fact if Sion's will was "unbreakable" than no one except Nihilus would have been able to kill him.



It's nice to see you confirm yet again that you have not paid attention to the game. Kreia didn't send the Exile to join Revan, she gave him/her a choice whether to stay on Malachor, return to exile or go search for Revan. She didn't know what the Exile would choose (evidenced by the DS and LS endings). Kreia "loved" the Exile because she saw in him/her that the will of the Force can be denied but not in the true sense of love. Malak does indeed state that Revan has become stronger but Kreia still knows his power (Revan's) quite well. Who would know Revan's power better his ex-apprentice or his Master ? Even if Revan has grown a bit stronger and Kreia only knows his level of power before his "rebirth" her's statement still confirms that the Exile is far beyond the overage Jedi/Sith. Oh and have actually seen Kreia cheer up someone in the entire game? Did she cheer up the Exile when he/she was choking in the Jek Jek Tarr? "Don't worry Exile you'll be just fine. I'll teach you a new Force power and you'll kick some alien ass." No I don't remember it that way. No Wait I remember! When he/she was facing Sion on Korriban she said "Don't worry Exile, you can do it! You can beat him! Just break his will!" No Wait that didn't happen either. Show me a moment where Kreia cheers the Exile or anyone else. However I am sure you can't because Kreia doesn't cheer anyone she manipulates people and usually by some cruel means (just like with Atton).

Easily affected by the Dark Side? Really? Or maybe she didn't want to face Sion. Because if she did he could have reveal her identity to the Exile. If she is so Easily affected by the DS then why did she continue to be herself on Malachor V (also a Dark Side world) at the Trayus Academy? She wasn't affected at all.

How could victory be pointless if she didn't give him/her all she could? It would be because he/she didn't earn it and for her that is cheapening the victory. If someone gets something that they haven't earned (be it victory, money or whatever) Kreia feels "it is like poring sand in their hands." Kreia would have killed the Exile it is stated by both Sion and Kreia and refusing to do otherwise would be against everything she believes in. When the Exile says that he is willing to sacrifice himself/herself for any of his friends including her, Traya states that she would rather die than allow the Exile to demean him self /herself. This again proves that Kreia wouldn't let the Exile win without giving everything she's got. For Kreia that is betrayal of the self. And as I have stated before Traya doesn't feel true kind of love. Or do you remember some moment in the game where Kreia is hitting on the Exile?! It was more like a metaphor because as Atris stated the Exile is the only thing that matters to Kreia (because of his unique ability to defy the will Force).

His skin isn't burnt it's full of cuts. If you can't see it than you should know Atton stated that he looks like he "sleeps with vibroblades". Why do you think the cuts are only skin deep? Do you know how deep they are? No you do not. Neither do I but I at least have something to fall back on. The medical officer's words for example I don't know why you keep ignoring them but when she says she doesn't know "what's even keeping him together" it definitely means something. Besides why is it that every time the Exile defeats him (both on Korriban and Malachor V) Sion's limbs are still on his body. You can say that applies to everyone in the game but they die, Sion doesn't.

Originally posted by the_satan32
There exactly is it stated that the boost is temporary? Nowhere the boost is permanent. That's why it is such a great power. You have not provided any evidence to support your statement while I and others such as xxXAcStylesXxx have provided plenty of evidence to support our points. Until you do I don't see why I or anyone else should trust your opinion on the Exile's power.
Are you kidding me? Neither you nor AC have shown any shred of proof in terms of the exile being above Average. You're right though, nobody trusts Nai's opinion on here, dumbass. And nowhere is it stated that the boost is permanent as well.


Yet again, the concept of gameplay mechanics eludes both you and AC. What do you mean there's no evidence supporting the claim that the Exile was talking to Sion. Of course there's evidence, that's the only way you can beat him is by talking him to death. It's funny how you guys use gameplay mechanics in one part to further your argument, and deny it in another part. Double standards are a ***** huh?




This crap doesn't warrant any kind of response except for "bullshit".


She didn't want to face Sion? The same Sion that still listens to her when the Exile is on Malachor V? Try again. It's more than obvious that she doesn't want to be affected by the dark side, which is why she doesn't get off on the ship on Korriban.


All of this nonsense is irrelevant to a 1 on 1 fight with Ulic.


Good lord, nowhere in your pointless rambling did you state or prove how the exile would have any chance against Ulic in a saber duel.

Nai, don't expect a full response from me till Saturday night from me cause, I'll be out having a life.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Nai, don't expect a full response from me till Saturday night from me cause, I'll be out having a life.

I hope so, because you're making a fool out of yourself on the internet.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Are you kidding me? Neither you nor AC have shown any shred of proof in terms of the exile being above Average. You're right though, nobody trusts Nai's opinion on here, dumbass. And nowhere is it stated that the boost is permanent as well.


Yet again, the concept of gameplay mechanics eludes both you and AC. What do you mean there's no evidence supporting the claim that the Exile was talking to Sion. Of course there's evidence, that's the only way you can beat him is by talking him to death. It's funny how you guys use gameplay mechanics in one part to further your argument, and deny it in another part. Double standards are a ***** huh?




This crap doesn't warrant any kind of response except for "bullshit".

"
She didn't want to face Sion? The same Sion that still listens to her when the Exile is on Malachor V? Try again. It's more than obvious that she doesn't want to be affected by the dark side, which is why she doesn't get off on the ship on Korriban.


All of this nonsense is irrelevant to a 1 on 1 fight with Ulic.


Good lord, nowhere in your pointless rambling did you state or prove how the exile would have any chance against Ulic in a saber duel.

No shred of evidence!? I have to ask you something can you read?
I have provided plenty of evidence and I will write them again. If the Exile isn't above average then why does she/he defeat three Sith lords, end a civil war (Onderon), defeat waves of Dark Jedi and Sith troopers (again Onderon and Trayus Academy) and many others. Kreia states the the Exile is greater than any she has ever trained and even Mandalore admits that even their greatest warriors are no match for him/her.

I never said they don't talk I said they don't talk the way Borbarad speculated. They talk the way you see in the game in between duels.

"Bullshit" ? Of course you will say that. You are no debater when you don't have a response all you can do is insult. How old are you 10?

Of course she wouldn't want to face Sion. If she does he can reveal her identity as a Sith Lord and ruin her plans. And besides he is trying to kill her.

Of course is irrelevant in a fight against Ulic but I was debating with Borbarad who unlike you doesn't insult people when he is wrong and can't answer.

Just put him on ignore, like me and Lightsnake have done, I can guarantee you nothing he says is important enough to even view.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Just put him on ignore, like me and Lightsnake have done, I can guarantee you nothing he says is important enough to even view.

I see why you would do that. His arguments are ridicules and his insults further discredit him.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Just put him on ignore, like me and Lightsnake have done, I can guarantee you nothing he says is important enough to even view.

Speak for yourself, I don't see lightsnake having me on ignore. Don't be upset because you can't win a debate and lack any kind of common sense.

Originally posted by the_satan32
I see why you would do that. His arguments are ridicules and his insults further discredit him.

A. Ridiculous
B. For someone who thought that being either male or female for the Exile was the same thing, you sure like to talk. You've offered less facts and more bullshit than AC has thus far.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
A. Ridiculous
B. For someone who thought that being either male or female for the Exile was the same thing, you sure like to talk. You've offered less facts and more bullshit than AC has thus far.

1 English isn't the first language I've learnt so it's normal for me to make mistakes.
2 Bullshit ? Really? Can you show us some specific examples? At least I don't insult people when I'm losing a debate.

At least you acknowledge losing the debate, most poor debaters have a problem doing that and instead project their bullshit on the better debaters.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
At least you acknowledge losing the debate, most poor debaters have a problem doing that and instead project their bullshit on the better debaters.

I'm not losing. You are. I never said I'm losing this one.

Darth Sexy I want to ask you something, if you are such a good debater why do you either come up with some ridiculous and obviously wrong answers or you just call the other debater's posts bullshit and don't answer at all. Why do you insult people when they are debating with you? I'll tell you why it's because you are poor debater you said yourself that most poor debaters can't admit that they are wrong. Looks like you're right.

Originally posted by the_satan32
Darth Sexy I want to ask you something, if you are such a good debater why do you either come up with some ridiculous and obviously wrong answers or you just call the other debater's posts bullshit and don't answer at all. Why do you insult people when they are debating with you? I'll tell you why it's because you are poor debater you said yourself that most poor debaters can't admit that they are wrong. Looks like you're right.

As I told AC, the poor debater's biggest friend is denial. You are not an authority on good debating or even logical debating since judging by your hilarious posts, you are an expert in neither. I suggest you sit back, take your medicine, and learn something, or embarass yourself like AC has been doing.

Originally posted by Borbarad
on.

And I still wonder where that discussion should actually lead to as still none of the Exiles opponents comes close to Exar Kun in actual confrontation. That won't change no matter how long we keep talking about Kreia, Sion or Nihilus.

That's where you're wrong, Nihilus was more powerful than Kun, he's uber.

I can't beleive you're making a case for Ulic based on stale mating a relatively green Jedi turned Sith, who at that point probably hadn't reached his peak (peak being he's power level at the end of his life).

Face it, there are Sith who's powers and knowledge have surpassed Kun, namely Nihilus (in power) and Traya (in knoweldge). I don't need an omniscient narrator to tell me that Kun had more knowledge than he knew what do with (in 6 months time)..., no shit. I mean he was encountering Sith knowledge that had taken Sadow almost a life time to learn.

Knowldege: Traya > Kun

Power: Nihilus > Kun
Let's not forget Sion who'd achieved nigh immortality in his physical body. Let's not forget that the Exile didn't just stale mate these Sith, he beat every one of them.

The Exile over Ulic.

Let me put Nihilus' power into perspective: outside of the Exile (the wound), Luke and Sidious, there's probably no one that can stand up to him in a one-on-one square off, that's how overwhelming his power is.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Want to argue against canon again ? Go and watch RotS. Watch the opening sequence. Anakin and Obi-Wan just before entering Grievous ship do destroy the shield that is in front of the hangar entrance. And the shield...obviously kept the air inside the hangar as Anakin and Obi-Wan are both breathing their which should be possible in...a vacuum. And notice how the air didn't leave the hangar in the same moment the shield was destroyed. The same principle also works for the Death Star hangars in ANH and ROTJ where nothing but an energy shield is between the hangar bay and outer space.

So if you knew anything about ship tech in Star Wars, you would have noticed that shields actually do keep the air inside a room.



See above. Simply wrong.


You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

I'll give you an example in ROTS. Remember when Grievous escaped by breaking one of the windows in the bridge, disrupting the internal atmosphere of the bridge? What did Obi and Anakin have to do? They had to close off and seal the windows with an emergency lock down to avoid getting sucked into the vacuum of space.

This destroys your completely illogical argument. The Ravager needed seals to keep the internal atmosphere normal yet somehow, it functioned without them, clealry Nihilus' influence. And as far as the hangar is concerned, it's filled with force fields not energy shields.

That whole rant on the structural intergrity of the Ravager was amusing. Have you forgotten hyperspace? A ship that beaten up has no place in hyperspace, where ships supposedly bypass dimentions (and you don't want what's outside the ship to get inside which would be disastrous), yet the Ravager was quite clearly capable of traveling through hyperspace.


Originally posted by Borbarad

You mean the same force drain that is an extend of his "hunger". The same thing that Kreia comments with "There is no power behind his hunger" ? Woah. Nihilus was beaten by an average Jedi (quote of Vrook about the Exile) who was lucky enough to have some sort of resistance against the force drain. That's exactly how "powerful" he is.



Why use the word luck? There's no real luck in fiction and the Jedi Exile is far from being an average Jedi. Your argument is weak because, "Average Jedi" in the context of Kotor 2 is very much meaningless. Maybe if the Exile had had average achievements, but that didn't happen in Kotor 2.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Name some.


Being able to learn techniques very quickly from observation, unpredictability, great strength in the force, enigmatic force connection, and like Ulic, skilled in battle (according to Malak and some of the Exile's masters).

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh genious. You do notice that there are certain techniques that every Jedi is capable of using while there are some which are restricted to person who learned corresponding force techniques. For example: Every force user can use telekinesis. Basic. Not every force user can use force lightning. Hence it's not a "basic" ability.


That's beside the point, Nihilus "choked" Visas with the force, for all we know the technique may not be as "basic" as you assume. For instance, when Vader choked the officer while situated in an entirely different part of the ship. Now, it might be assumed that choke is just an aggressive form of TK, but for Vader to create a connection through the force, along the many corridors and contours of a large star destroyer seems pretty complex. This was an irrelevant argument anyway.



Originally posted by Borbarad

Yet Kun did utterly destroy people who, following your own definition, should have been leagues above Kreia in terms of knowledge and power. And while having no access to the force any longer he was capable of fending off an enraged Jedi for minutes in a lightsaber duel. Rather interesting because nobody else with the exception of Grievous, has pulled something like this off before or after.

Compared to that the Exile did what exactly ? Killing people that were previously weakened ? Yeah. Great.

Not at all, Kreia was an unconventional Jedi, she studied both the dark side and the light with equal vigor, Odan and Vodo were very much Jedi in the conventional mode, so no they were not as powerful in the force as Kreia.

The Exile's accomplishments easily trample over Ulic's, so don't even bother going there.

I thought the Exile generally wasn't used in vs. threads because she was an unknown?

The Exile has done enough to be considered above average. He/she defeated three Sith Lords, waves of dark jedi and sith troopers (don't say gameplay mechanics because some battles can't be avoided thus the Exile is over the enemies he/she fights because if he/she couldn't win then we wouldn't be able to finish the game). He/she also defeats a Jedi counsel member (Atris) and three other counsel members (if DS).

There are enough people that say that the Exile is a powerful warrior. The vision of Malak says that the Exile's masters speak well of him/her in battle. Mandalore says that not even their greatest warriors are a match for him/her.

Simply by observing another in action, the Exile could instantly learn techniques and battle stances that would take a Jedi Master years to perfect (as seen during the sparing/fight scenes with the Jedi masters).

He/she was able to gain greater power through all the deaths he/she caused which was a result of him/her being a wound in the Force. You say this effect is temporary but in-game dialog contradicts this. Sion admits during his duel with the Exile (on Malachor) that he/she is strong and that Kreia was right about him. When you speak with masters on Dantooine and they say you are a wound in the Force the Exile replies "I am stronger than ever before" ( or "More lies! My power is proof that you are wrong". The Jedi do not argue and respond by explaining that her/his power comes from the deaths of all those she/he has killed. More evidence that the effect is permanent is that if your character is dark sided and you hunt down the masters and kill them the Exile drains them she/he gets additional Force points. These Force points don't disappear after some time passes (because that should happen if it was temporary).

You make a mistake when you compare the Exile's power to that of Nihilus. Nihilus weakens when he doesn't "feed" (and would eventually die) but the Exile doesn't. Nihilus drains his targets which kills them but the Exile cannot drain them unless he/she kills her target first.

Originally posted by Allankles
That's where you're wrong, Nihilus was more powerful than Kun, he's uber.
Opinions from retarded debaters are irrelevant.


I can't believe you're still on this forum when you don't have any debating abilitites whatsoever.


Here comes the irrelevant Kun bashing. You did the same thing with Revan and you looked absolutely ridiculous.


Wrong. Your opinions are meaningless unless you can back them up.


Wrong again. Not to mention gameplay mechanics don't count... This is the worst argument I've seen here in months..


You're an idiot.

Originally posted by Allankles
You don't know what the hell you're talking about.
No, as you've clearly shown since you've been here, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.


Guess what dumbass, what you said is absolutely irrelevant. If the ship was held up by NIhilus' will, it would have immediately been destroyed. Instead everyone got off the ship and the proton torpedos were initiated. Try again.


Rant? You mean the bullshit you've been doing since you've started posting. Don't start crying because it makes sense. Your bullshit argument fails yet again when Nihilus dies and the ship stays intact.





From what I've seen between you and the other two dumbasses here, nothing even remotely suggests the exile is above average. Perhaps you should let someone more intelligent debate whatever point you are trying to make.




Yea right, the exile learned 6 lightsaber styles in minutes.. Good thinking.




It's a force choke dumbass, there's absolutely no reason to assume otherwise. You can't be this stupid if you're trying to make an argument that Vader's choke was different? How about the fact that Vader had more mastery of the force, that he could choke from long distances.





You don't know what she studied and you sure as hell don't know if she's more powerful than Odan and Vodo.


This is where I tell you your denial is beyond anything I've seen from the other two arguing your case. The exile's achievements do nothing for a 1 on 1 match with Ulic, and she loses.

Originally posted by the_satan32
The Exile has done enough to be considered above average. He/she defeated three Sith Lords, waves of dark jedi and sith troopers (don't say gameplay mechanics because some battles can't be avoided thus the Exile is over the enemies he/she fights because if he/she couldn't win then we wouldn't be able to finish the game). He/she also defeats a Jedi counsel member (Atris) and three other counsel members (if DS).
Jesus christ, the 3 morons arguing the same thing cannot differentiate between gameplay mechanics and canon. The exile did NOT defeat 3 sith lords because she had her companions so the fights are unknown. Not to mention whatever happens with the dark side is absolutely non canon so it shouldn't even be in this debate.


What the hell are you babbling about?


Gameplay mechanic dumbass. As Nai said if you play a Jedu Counselor, you don't learn half of these techniques. That point of AC was already destroyed.


I'm starting to think that AC, satan, and Allankles are all the same people because they make all the same dumbass arguments with no common sense.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Jesus christ, the 3 morons arguing the same thing cannot differentiate between gameplay mechanics and canon. The exile did NOT defeat 3 sith lords because she had her companions so the fights are unknown. Not to mention whatever happens with the dark side is absolutely non canon so it shouldn't even be in this debate.


What the hell are you babbling about?


Gameplay mechanic dumbass. As Nai said if you play a Jedu Counselor, you don't learn half of these techniques. That point of AC was already destroyed.


I'm starting to think that AC, satan, and Allankles are all the same people because they make all the same dumbass arguments with no common sense.

Hm... gameplay mechanics and canon where is it stated that the Exile had help when he/she fought Sion and Traya? Nowhere because she/he was alone in the Trayus Academy. The only time the Exile had companions is when he/she faced Nihilus. Nowhere in the game is it stated that the Exile is average (apart from the hologram with Vrook and Vandar which is over 10 years old and does not describe the Exile in his/her present form). Quite the opposite the masters make it quite clear that the Exile grows stronger after he/she kills someone. And like I said many fights are unavoidable thus the Exile is stronger than he/she was before the Mandalorian Wars.

The vision of Malak (in the tomb on Korriban) states that the Exile's masters speak well of his/her abilities in battle. Mandalore (Canderous) says that not even the greatest mandalorian warriors are a match for him/her. Kreia says that the Exile is greater than any she has ever trained. And yes she would know Revan's power as she says she was his first and last master. Saying she doesn't know his power and skill is like saying that Obi-Wan didn't know Anakin's power and skill.

Yes if you play a "Jedu Counselor" you don't learn some of the lightsaber forms instead you learn force forms with the same speed. The masters state in in-game dialog that the Exile learns with incredible speed (unless G. Lucas comes and says otherwise it's hard to get more canon than that). They teach him/her different forms because it would better suit him/her. Why would they teach someone who focuses more on the Force instead of a lightsaber lighrsaber forms ? And regardless the Jedi Exile knew many lightsaber and force forms and since Jedi usually know one or two that means something. The only Jedi that I can think of who knows so many forms is Yoda (forms I-VI).

Right so you can't answer the last one? Just admit that you are wrong or that you can't answer because making stupid and obviously wrong statements doesn't make you a good debater. And insults just make you seem desperate.

Originally posted by the_satan32
Hm... gameplay mechanics and canon where is it stated that the Exile had help when he/she fought Sion and Traya? Nowhere because she/he was alone in the Trayus Academy. The only time the Exile had companions is when he/she faced Nihilus. Nowhere in the game is it stated that the Exile is average (apart from the hologram with Vrook and Vandar which is over 10 years old and does not describe the Exile in his/her present form). Quite the opposite the masters make it quite clear that the Exile grows stronger after he/she kills someone. And like I said many fights are unavoidable thus the Exile is stronger than he/she was before the Mandalorian Wars.
You said the exile defeated 3 sith lords, which was the basis of your argument. She defeated Sion by breaking his will, and she defeated Traya who never truly wanted to kill her. Explain to me how this makes her uber powerful or even comparable to Ulic? Better yet stop posting, your argument is getting more and more ridiculous. Nobody is arguing that the exile has some abilities but there is, and I will repeat this since you haven't made a real argument yet, absolutely NOTHING that suggests she can best Ulic in a force battle, or a saber duel.


I don't remember Canderous saying anything like that. I remember Canderous saying Revan was the best tactician he's ever met. Kreia also said Revan was the heart of the force, and considering Kreia loved the exile because of what she represented, the opinion is a little biased, unless you want to start preaching the Exile's dominance over Revan.


Uh, once again, its a gameplay mechanic that allows her to learn all the forms within minutes. Unless you want to start arguing that she learned all forms quicker than Yoda or anyone else could. Lets try this again, canonically the Exile did NOT know 6 forms.


Why would I admit you're wrong when your first post was utterly destroyed and you've been posting crap ever since? Once again, the poor debater goes into denial when his argument gets torn apart. I suggest you stop posting.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You said the exile defeated 3 sith lords, which was the basis of your argument. She defeated Sion by breaking his will, and she defeated Traya who never truly wanted to kill her. Explain to me how this makes her uber powerful or even comparable to Ulic? Better yet stop posting, your argument is getting more and more ridiculous. Nobody is arguing that the exile has some abilities but there is, and I will repeat this since you haven't made a real argument yet, absolutely NOTHING that suggests she can best Ulic in a force battle, or a saber duel.


I don't remember Canderous saying anything like that. I remember Canderous saying Revan was the best tactician he's ever met. Kreia also said Revan was the heart of the force, and considering Kreia loved the exile because of what she represented, the opinion is a little biased, unless you want to start preaching the Exile's dominance over Revan.


Uh, once again, its a gameplay mechanic that allows her to learn all the forms within minutes. Unless you want to start arguing that she learned all forms quicker than Yoda or anyone else could. Lets try this again, canonically the Exile did NOT know 6 forms.


Why would I admit you're wrong when your first post was utterly destroyed and you've been posting crap ever since? Once again, the poor debater goes into denial when his argument gets torn apart. I suggest you stop posting.

Kriea NEVER let the Exile win. There is no proof in the game that would confirm this. Why would she summon the floating sabers if the Exile has already defeated her (if you remember he/she cut off her other hand). And as I have said it's against what she believes. But there is no point in discussing this since like I said there is no proof that this is true.

Mandalore does say this if you have influence with him.

Yes she/he does. Unless you have any proof that states otherwise than yes the Exile can learn the forms faster than Yoda. Your opinion does not override what happens in the game. Show me a canon source that states the Exile did not know 6 forms.

I'm a poor debater?! Am I the one who ignores post and just calls them bullshit without explaining why they are wrong. Am I the one who keeps insulting people because I can't win an argument? No that's you.

Originally posted by the_satan32
Kriea NEVER let the Exile win. There is no proof in the game that would confirm this. Why would she summon the floating sabers if the Exile has already defeated her (if you remember he/she cut off her other hand). And as I have said it's against what she believes. But there is no point in discussing this since like I said there is no proof that this is true.
Can you learn how to use the quote feature before you waste my time? I never said she LET the exile win, I said she never truly wanted to kill the exile, so she wasn't going all out.


And thank you for proving my point about gameplay mechanics. I rest my case.


Stop saying he/she. I realize you have trouble differentiating between canon and gameplay mechanics, but we refer to characters in their canonical gender. I don't need proof, especially when you make a claim that the exile learns faster than Yoda due to gameplay mechanics. I don't need to show you a source that the exile did not learn 6 forms. Apparently you have no concept of the rules of debate, seeing as you need to show a canon source stating the exile DOES know 6 forms, and the gameplay mechanics don't count, no matter what you want to believe.


Yes, you're a poor debater who asks me to prove a negative and tries to pass off gameplay mechanics for canon, not to mention lies to himself because he can't debate.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Can you learn how to use the quote feature before you waste my time? I never said she LET the exile win, I said she never truly wanted to kill the exile, so she wasn't going all out.


And thank you for proving my point about gameplay mechanics. I rest my case.


Stop saying he/she. I realize you have trouble differentiating between canon and gameplay mechanics, but we refer to characters in their canonical gender. I don't need proof, especially when you make a claim that the exile learns faster than Yoda due to gameplay mechanics. I don't need to show you a source that the exile did not learn 6 forms. Apparently you have no concept of the rules of debate, seeing as you need to show a canon source stating the exile DOES know 6 forms, and the gameplay mechanics don't count, no matter what you want to believe.


Yes, you're a poor debater who asks me to prove a negative and tries to pass off gameplay mechanics for canon, not to mention lies to himself because he can't debate.

Can you prove that she wasn't going all out?

What does that have to do with what Mandalore says?

If you read my posts you will see that I never debated whether or not the Exile can beat Ulic. I debated that the Exile is more than just an average Force user. She (do you feel better) seems to be very underestimated. Perhaps you are right about gameplay but the point is that the Exile is stated to be more powerful than normal Force users. Her triumph over the Sith lords and Atris and what the Jedi masters say on Dantooine is enough . Yes I know Nihilus was weakened but he was still a powerful Sith. Sion is defeated because of having a weak will but Traya loses despite not holding back (provide proof that she is and I'll change my mind). What the counsel says still remains and you still haven't said anything about Atris.

Originally posted by the_satan32
Can you prove that she wasn't going all out?
Again with the proving of a negative? Traya loved the Exile and it's clear she wasn't going out during their final battle. Can you prove that she was going all out?


Uh the fact that if you don't influence him, he doesn't say it, the fact that it's a gameplay mechanics.


The exile specializes in force bonds and accidental force drain, due to her being a wound. Other than that, there's nothing that makes her superior to normal force users. I don't need to say anything about Atris, because she doesn't seem more than average as well. Not to mention she gets manipulated by Traya rather easily.

Originally posted by Allankles
That's where you're wrong, Nihilus was more powerful than Kun, he's uber.

No. He has a single ability that is "uber" and that's it.



He was good enough to defeat 600 year old Jedi Master in duels and toss people like Aleema apart casually with a single force attack. And his "peak" ? He had actually read through anything Sadow left behind at the point he confronted Ulic. He already had his amulet. He already destroyed Nadd's spirit. The only thing that he might have done during the time between that day and his death was a) coming up with a new lightsaber + style b) studying what he had taken from Ossus. Yet on Ossus he was again capable to kill a 1,000 year old Jedi Master who had defeated Ancient Sith in personal confrontation while another one immediatly admits that he can't take on Kun in combat and turns into a giant tree thing by drawing away energy from the planet itself.



Oh my you freaking ignorant idiot. The omniscient narrator says Kun had more knowledge than he could EVER use. No shit. You're are as stupid as somebody can actually get if not getting the meaning of that statement.



Proof ? Ah thx. Kun had more viable sources and was obviously eager to study them. He had no problems in mastering Sith alchemy and Sith magic in the matter of six month. If you show me Traya constructing Sith amulets or create completely new creatures as well as freezing the entire Senate on the spot, you can come back to me.



Nihilus was done in a three on one and he was weakened during that twice (first: attempt to drain the Exile, second: Visas assaulting him through the force). Hardly a glorious action. Sion was still convinced to give up. And Kreia is still not as powerful as Kun was. So what did you want to tell me ? Put Kun in the same situations.

Nihilus: Kun resists force drain (as he did with a similar attack before) and kicks Nihilus ass over the place.

Sion: Kun points his hand at him and tosses him through the room like a ragdoll as long as he pleases, or blasts him into pieces with his amulet, or takes the "talk him to death" Exile route.

Kreia: "Hey look baby. I have Sith amulets" Blows her into the core of Malachor V.



Did you watch the film ? Did you notice how the Invisible Hand was constantly attacked to a point WHERE THE SHIELDS FAILED. Ups.



This isn't feat wars. Without the event of being turned into a wound in the force, Nihilus would have killed the Exile with his very first attack. Any doubt about that ?



You noticed how RotS Anakin was capable of force choking Padme, right ? Luke did also use that technique in RotJ. Apparently both did that without special training involved.



Hello, idiot. Odan Urr did defeat Ancient Sith Lords in personal confrontation as he tells Nomi Sunrider when teaching her the wall of light attack. Right. The same people who Kreia descripes as being so uber powerful that she and the Exile would look like children playing with toys compared to them. Yet somehow Kreia is more powerful than Odan Urr who happened to EXPERIENCE the epitomes of Dark Siders in personal confrontation and who kept some Sith holocrons around him just in case. Yeah. Of course, dude.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Nihilus: Kun resists force drain (as he did with a similar attack before) and kicks Nihilus ass over the place.

I'm not going to argue about anything else but has Kun really resisted an attack that can drain entire planets? If Kun is so powerful wouldn't this just make him a tasty meal for Darth N? Only someone who is a wound in the Force should be able to resist it. If and entire force sensitive race and about a 100 Jedi couldn't resist his power how can Kun do it?
I admit I don't read SW comics I just debated that the Exile is over an average Jedi.

Um... bump..

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. He has a single ability that is "uber" and that's it.



He was good enough to defeat 600 year old Jedi Master in duels and toss people like Aleema apart casually with a single force attack. And his "peak" ? He had actually read through anything Sadow left behind at the point he confronted Ulic. He already had his amulet. He already destroyed Nadd's spirit.

Odan -Urr never proved himself to be anything special. Saying you defeated ancient Sith and then show nothing to prove that you're anywhere near as bad ass as you say you are, doesn't cut it. By the same token, Kreia defeated many Sith, that years later would be called ancients. Kreia was talking about lightsaber dueling, during a time Sith used lightsabers, Sadow and his ilk clearly didn't use lightsabers, try again.


Originally posted by Borbarad

Oh my you freaking ignorant idiot. The omniscient narrator says Kun had more knowledge than he could EVER use. No shit. You're are as stupid as somebody can actually get if not getting the meaning of that statement.

And how much time did he have to study that knowledge? 6 months. Defeats the gravity of that statement right there.



Originally posted by Borbarad
Proof ? Ah thx. Kun had more viable sources and was obviously eager to study them. He had no problems in mastering Sith alchemy and Sith magic in the matter of six month. If you show me Traya constructing Sith amulets or create completely new creatures as well as freezing the entire Senate on the spot, you can come back to me.

Proof?! Kreia showed herself to be master of the force. One, her knowledge of all the lightsaber forms, her knowledge of several force forms, her knowledge of specialized techniques like BM (Onderon), Beast Trick (Dxun), Mind reading and probing, her intimate knowledge of force drain.

Not to mention her ability to hold her breathe for a long time with the force, her ability to put herself in a trance where she shows no life signs, her ability to mask her presence in the force even while standing next to very powerful force sensitives, her ability to use three lightsabers simultaneously with TK.

Her ability to create echoes in the force, propell monumental events with the smallest of actions.

The wealth of the knowledge she openly displays far exceeds anything Kun ever showed himself to know. So quit trying to pass your obviously illogical and biased reasoning as fact, because it's far from it.






Originally posted by Borbarad

Did you watch the film ? Did you notice how the Invisible Hand was constantly attacked to a point WHERE THE SHIELDS FAILED. Ups..

Ups yourself dummy. You want me to believe that the Ravager, which was far more beaten up than the Invisible Hand (at that point) had operational energy shields while the Invisible Hand did not? Let's bring this up again: Grievous compromises the hull in the bridge, Obi has to seal the breach to prevent from getting sucked into space.

Give me one example where a breach in the hull was compensated for by a friggin energy shield, in sw?

Your arguments are devoid of sense.





Originally posted by Borbarad

You noticed how RotS Anakin was capable of force choking Padme, right ? Luke did also use that technique in RotJ. Apparently both did that without special training involved.

First of all, Visas was clearly able to speak, which presents a possibility that Nihilus was doing more to her than merely constricting her wind pipe.

Two, this is irrelevant, you obviously didn't understand what I meant by basic is all a matter of interpretation. Your apparent arguments to the contrary proved this, how about broadening your scope to not only your narrowed view of the techniques by themselves, but also their place in the many interpretations of fiction we have in SW.


Originally posted by Borbarad

Hello, idiot. Odan Urr did defeat Ancient Sith Lords in personal confrontation as he tells Nomi Sunrider when teaching her the wall of light attack. Right. The same people who Kreia descripes as being so uber powerful that she and the Exile would look like children playing with toys compared to them. Yet somehow Kreia is more powerful than Odan Urr who happened to EXPERIENCE the epitomes of Dark Siders in personal confrontation and who kept some Sith holocrons around him just in case. Yeah. Of course, dude.

Pray tell, who were these ancient Sith that he beat? Saying you beat Ancient Sith means absolutely nothing, if you don't show yourself to be as good as you claim you are. Odan never proved that he's anywhere near Kreia's league.

And Kreia was talking about the ancients who used lightsabers, none of the ancient Sith we've come to read about used lightsabers, so you can stop with your umpteenth idiotic argument.

Originally posted by Allankles
Odan -Urr never proved himself to be anything special. Saying you defeated ancient Sith and then show nothing to prove that you're anywhere near as bad ass as you say you are, doesn't cut it. By the same token, Kreia defeated many Sith, that years later would be called ancients. Kreia was talking about lightsaber dueling, during a time Sith used lightsabers, Sadow and his ilk clearly didn't use lightsabers, try again.
Odan Urr was able to use the wall of light technique on ancient sith, the greatest jedi technique. You don't know ANYONE Kreia defeated, so stop pretending. And Kreia wasn't talking about lightsaber duels, she was talking about combat in general, try again.





6 months of all the ancient sith knowledge from Sadow that DIED with Kun+Ossus>Traya..






My my you ARE an idiot. I didn't know Traya knew all the lightsaber forms? OH that's right, she doesn't. Not to mention there's no canon source that she knows battle meditation. Good god douchebag, you still don't understand the concept of gameplay mechanics. I guess the exile knows force storm!!


hurry for gameplay mechanics and feat wars!!!


Except for the fact that Kun knew techniques Traya didn't, sith magic, sith alchemy, amulet construction. It's enough that your argument is being destroyed everytime you post, it's sad that you have to lie to yourself. Kun>Traya, get over it.









Nobody cares what you believe..


Actually his arguments are logical and so are mine. You have not offered a shred of logic or common sense between your bullshit. I thought you would stop posting after the Revan argument but you love digging yourself into a hole with your neverending stupidity.





Gee, last time it was a force choke, this time it's possibly something else? Bullshit? Yes..


Except Nai has proven his knowledge of star wars integrated with common sense. You have yet to prove you possess either.



Just because in your deluded little mind you say something, doesn't make it reality.


You mean the argument that has destroyed yours for the umpteenth time? Do everyone a favor and take your stupidity somewhere else..

Originally posted by the_satan32
I'm not going to argue about anything else but has Kun really resisted an attack that can drain entire planets? If Kun is so powerful wouldn't this just make him a tasty meal for Darth N? Only someone who is a wound in the Force should be able to resist it. If and entire force sensitive race and about a 100 Jedi couldn't resist his power how can Kun do it?
I admit I don't read SW comics I just debated that the Exile is over an average Jedi.

Can you stop pulling that craptasting numbers out of the sky ?
Thon did survive the attack of a Sith which did wipe the entire life from Ambria. So obviously this can be done. And everybody able to shield his presence in the force (or "minimize it" as it's descriped) should be capable of surviving an attack like that. As people capable of doing that would offer no target to such an attack any longer. And the list of people capable of perfoming something like this is actually pretty long, ranging from pretty much every Sith since Bane over people like Tholme up to various members of the NJO.

@Allankles


Lmao. First: Odan is capable of using the wall of light attack which is pretty apparent as he teaches it to Nomi. Second: I don't see why he should actually lie to Nomi. Third: Going by this he's actually capable of using this technique against powerful opponents. Fourth: This alone does put him above the Jedi Masters in KotoR 2 as they can't affect the Exile in case the Exile tries to defend herself. Fifth: Odan Urr studied the ways of the force for more than 1,000 years and had a rather huge library filled with knowledge. It was him who did invent the Jedi Code in case you didn't notice that.

And Kreia did defeat what ? Not a single person would be the right answer. And surely nobody recognized as "Ancient Sith" as this term refers to the inhabitants of the Ancient Sith Empire only. And Kreia talks about the ancient Siths prowess in battle not about lightsaber combat specifically.



You really are that stupid, right ? Do I really have to type it again for you ? In the courtesy of that six months Kun learned how to use Sith alchemy (he created new lifeforms, he created a new Sith amulet), Sith magic (seen when he freezes the senate and blasts Aleema aside). He even claims to have learned everything that Sadow had to offer about Sith magic in the short period of time that lies between defeating Nadd's spirit and confronting Ulic. Yet he doesn't, for all we know, gain any new knowledge source until the day he plunders Ossus.



Lmao. Yes she can give some general information about the lightsaber forms. I can do the same. Am I a master of all lightsaber forms now ? Apparently not. Force forms ? Gameplay and only matter if you play as Counselor. "Specialized" techniques ? Battle Meditation can be learned, the Beast Trick is so "specialized" that every Koruunai can perform it - aside of the fact that five year old Jacen Solo could do that. How impressive. Mind reading and probing ? Actually can be performed by almost every Jedi. Force drain ? Oh yeah...I guess Kun who mastered every bit of Sith knowledge Sadow had to offer wasn't capable of doing something like that. Oh wait...apparently he drained almost all Massassi on Yavin 4 to perform his nice ritual in the end. When Kreia wipes out the population of a small city please give me a call.



Oh man. Do I have to answer every damn bullshit five times ?
Holding her breathe for a long time would totally help her to survive against Kun, same with the trance ability. She masked her presence in the force so completly that she lost one hand to Sion if you remember that and using TK on multiple objects simultaneously was done by Luke in ESB.



Funny shit. Pass what you're smoking.



Yeah. Right. Kreia does no more about Ancient Sith teaching than the likes of Freedon Nadd and Naga Sadow who shared their knowledge with Kun. By the virtue of her skills as historian she can gain more knowledge and power than somebody like Kun who was chosen by Ragnos (whos grasp on the Dark Side Kreia descripes as frightening) personally. She somehow managed to gain knowledge that was apparently lost from the Galaxy when the ancient Sith Empire ceased to exists. While even Revan was skimming through the tombs on Korriban to find some Dark Side objects, Kun did simply create them himself.



The Ravager was pulled into Malachor by the Mass Shadow Generator. What did overload the ships shields, hmm ? Gravitational energy ?



Again. Did you watch RotS ? Again: Scene when Anakin and Obi-Wan land on the Invisbile hand. They take the shield down. Anything in the hangar should be sucked to the outside at the very same moment or we should at least SEE the oxygen leaving the ship (turning liquid because of temperature in outer space). Did you see that happening ? Because I didn't. And of course you didn't see a hull breach being compensated with an energy shield as a hull breach in a normal battle would require prior overloading of the shields. Still we do have multiple accounts where energy shields are used to keep the athmosphere INSIDE a space ship most apparent with the hangars of the two Death Stars.



Where are there many interpretations of what can be defined as "basic" techniques ? Every use of telekinesis, telepathy, strength / speed entchantment and sensing the force can be done by EVERY trained force user as it's really basic training to learn stuff like that. And there are other techniques that can't be used by every force user.



The Jedi did apparently invade the Ancient Sith Empire and destroyed what was left of it after Sadow's return from republic space. That would be a pretty nice amount of Dark Siders actually. For Odan see above.



Of course dude. Here's the quote: "If you were to face an ancient Sith lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the ancient masters." She refers to Ancient Sith Lords in general and combat in general. So you can stop with that rediculous statement now and STFU, noob.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Odan Urr was able to use the wall of light technique on ancient sith, the greatest jedi technique. You don't know ANYONE Kreia defeated, so stop pretending. And Kreia wasn't talking about lightsaber duels, she was talking about combat in general, try again.

But we've seen Kreia defeat Sith on Malachor, Sith who were said to grow in power proportional to the force strength of their opponents. And the wall of light didn't help Odan in the comics. He says he defeated Sith we've never seen or heard off, then he proceeds to get his ass handed to him. Wow?! Oh so impressive, try again dummy.




Originally posted by Darth Sexy

6 months of all the ancient sith knowledge from Sadow that DIED with Kun+Ossus>Traya...

Proof? And what do you think Kreia was doing as a chronicler of the Jedi order? Kreia was essentially responsible for the archiving and creation of the Jedi holocrons for years, decades. Kun was a green Jedi turned Sith trying o use centuries worth of knowledge in 6 months.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
My my you ARE an idiot. I didn't know Traya knew all the lightsaber forms? OH that's right, she doesn't. Not to mention there's no canon source that she knows battle meditation. Good god douchebag, you still don't understand the concept of gameplay mechanics. I guess the exile knows force storm!!...

She knew all the lightsaber forms, there are only seven if you remember. This is canon, as she has knowledge of every force form and lightsaber form the Exile could possibly use. Translation for dummies: her knowledge is not dependent on the gameplay.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Except for the fact that Kun knew techniques Traya didn't, sith magic, sith alchemy, amulet construction. It's enough that your argument is being destroyed everytime you post, it's sad that you have to lie to yourself. Kun>Traya, get over it.

Great argument Einstein, you could use this argument for just about anyone. Logical fallacies are abound in most of your arguments, and yet you continue to show your inability to mount a decent argument.

Let me put it like this (for the simple minded): there are techniques each has demonstrated that the other hasn't. My point was, Kreia has shown a lot more knowledge of the force than Kun. Her many lectures on the force and many techniques is proof of this.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy


Nobody cares what you believe.

It's not a matter of belief Hawkins, its a matter of the physical laws that abound in that universe. The ships hull besides, forming a large part of the structural integrity of a vessel, help maintain the internal pressure of the ship, energy shields function by creating barriers along the hull to absorb and deflect energy, they don't compensate for breached hulls as "plugs". So get you terms right.






Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Gee, last time it was a force choke, this time it's possibly something else? Bullshit? Yes

Who gives a crap? Apparently you missed the part where I said it's irrelevant.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy

You mean the argument that has destroyed yours for the umpteenth time? Do everyone a favor and take your stupidity somewhere else..

Wow! You've crushed my arguments. How about letting someone with above-kindergaten mental awareness do the arguing for you? You're laughable with your posts. At least try to do some debating that involves more than writing "bs", "get over it" and "I'm a superior debater".

I mean c'mon, you don't think the Exile's hot - fine, but show us why you don't think so, beyond regurgitating weak arguments that have already been refuted with reason.

Originally posted by Allankles
But we've seen Kreia defeat Sith on Malachor, Sith who were said to grow in power proportional to the force strength of their opponents. And the wall of light didn't help Odan in the comics. He says he defeated Sith we've never seen or heard off, then he proceeds to get his ass handed to him. Wow?! Oh so impressive, try again dummy.
Excuse me? What sith did Kreia defeat on Malachor? And has it occured to you that the wall of light that worked on the ancient sith didn't work on exar Kun because, oh I don't know, he was TOO DAMN POWERFUL? Nice argument dumbass.




Actually you don't know how long Kreia was a "historian". And lets assume for argument's sake she was, Exar Kun learning from Nadd, Korriban, and all of Sadow's teachings easily trumps the knowledge Kreia has.





No dumbass, it's not canon. There you go again pulling a "satan" and "AC" and embarassing yourself by taking gameplay mechanics and trying to pass them off as canon. There is absolutely NO canon source that states she was adept in all the lightsaber forms, and force forms..Once again, bravo dumbass.




Translation: When an argument is defeated or in your case, wtfpwned, make some shit up!


Denial isn't just another river in Egypt pumpkin.




Apparently you missed the part where I dozed off after reading your illogical bullshit. I had this dream that you stopped posting after humiliating yourself time and time again, but then I woke up.



Lets see, if I crushed your arguments and I possess kindergarDen level mental awareness, what does that make you?


Still in denial I see? I've noticed the pattern with you and AC. Anytime you two get wtfpwned, you somehow turn it around into a victory. D-E-N-I-A-L..

And she doesn't talk about combat, in general dumbass, she talks about Tulak horde being the greatest of lightsaber duelists among the ancient Sith and that the current gen would be as children playing with toys (toys being the lightsabers) compared to the ancient masters (of the lightsaber).

Don't just pick and choose parts of the quotes to suit your crappy arguments. Kreia was talking about lightsaber combat specifically, as it's the Exile who asks Kreia about the lightsaber combat in his age as compared to the ancient Sith.

Originally posted by Allankles
And she doesn't talk about combat, in general dumbass, she talks about Tulak horde being the greatest of lightsaber duelists among the ancient Sith and that the current gen would be as children playing with toys (toys being the lightsabers) compared to the ancient masters (of the lightsaber).
You can't be this stupid.. Nevermind.. Nai gave you the quote, and I can confirm it, because that's exactly what Kreia is saying during theg ame. Try again..


Combat.. And my arguments may be crappy(very unlikely), but they trump yours every time.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Excuse me? What sith did Kreia defeat on Malachor? And has it occured to you that the wall of light that worked on the ancient sith didn't work on exar Kun because, oh I don't know, he was TOO DAMN POWERFUL? Nice argument dumbass.

She defeated several identifiable albeit unknown Sith on Malachor. Odan defeated unknown unidentifiable Sith. Get the difference brainy?




Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Actually you don't know how long Kreia was a "historian". And lets assume for argument's sake she was, Exar Kun learning from Nadd, Korriban, and all of Sadow's teachings easily trumps the knowledge Kreia has.

Proof? Kreia learnt from many Sith and Jedi, how are we to assume she had less knowledge at her disposal. Plus she showed more knowledge of the force than Kun has shown.



Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No dumbass, it's not canon. There you go again pulling a "satan" and "AC" and embarassing yourself by taking gameplay mechanics and trying to pass them off as canon. There is absolutely NO canon source that states she was adept in all the lightsaber forms, and force forms..Once again, bravo dumbass.

She possessed the knowledge of all the lightsaber forms (irrespective of the Exile's experiences). Whether she was an adept or not is a pointless and fruitless argument.



Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Translation: When an argument is defeated or in your case, wtfpwned, make some shit up!.

Coming from you, in this thread, this means what? Please!

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Denial isn't just another river in Egypt pumpkin.

WOW! Saxy called me pumpkin!




Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Apparently you missed the part where I dozed off after reading your illogical bullshit. I had this dream that you stopped posting after humiliating yourself time and time again, but then I woke up.


People actually get humiliated here? Arguing over irreverent shit? You needs a life.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
ets see, if I crushed your arguments and I possess kindergarDen level mental awareness, what does that make you?.


It makes me your e - slave master. Lick my e-boots slave.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Still in denial I see? I've noticed the pattern with you and AC. Anytime you two get wtfpwned, you somehow turn it around into a victory. D-E-N-I-A-L..

Pwned over what?! Last I checked I was the only one... you know ... debating. Maybe you can work on that in your next post.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy



Combat.. And my arguments may be crappy(very unlikely), but they trump yours every time.

My point being it wasn't combat (in general) that she was talking about, but lightsaber combat specifically. None of the ancient Sith we've read about used lightsabers. Get my point or do I need to write in bolded capitals?

Originally posted by Allankles
She defeated several identifiable albeit unknown Sith on Malachor. Odan defeated unknown unidentifiable Sith. Get the difference brainy?
Yes, Odan defeated ancient sith, and Kreia defeated sith troopers. Thanks..





Who did she learn from? Revan? Who? We know Kun learned on Korriban, from Nadd, and finally all of Sadow's sith magic and alchemy. And no, Kun has shown more than Kreia, unless a force drain>Amulet blasts+sith magic+sith alchemy.






Ah ok, so you're making an assumption that she possessed knowledge of all 7 lightsaber forms. Good thing you can back that up. Oh wait.






Wtf is irreverent? And you take the time to post on here so you are equally responsible for your pathetic arguments. And seeing as how you keep repeating your nonsense and getting wtfpwned, you need more of a life than me.





No, youre the only one getting wtfpwned and coming back for more. Nothing in your text even hints at logical debating.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yes, Odan defeated ancient sith, and Kreia defeated sith troopers. Thanks..

Troopers? That's why you're such a great debater, this is microcosm of Saxy as a debater




Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Who did she learn from? Revan? Who? We know Kun learned on Korriban, from Nadd, and finally all of Sadow's sith magic and alchemy. And no, Kun has shown more than Kreia, unless a force drain>Amulet blasts+sith magic+sith alchemy.

Who did Sadow learn from, who did Ragnos learn from? It's a question without an answer and generally pointless. And the force drain was the full extent of Kreia's knowledge in the force. Let me say this again: Kreia showed herself to be more knowledgable in the force than Kun. Now find the key word in the previous sentence? Shown..... Which is all that matters given it's fiction.





Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Ah ok, so you're making an assumption that she possessed knowledge of all 7 lightsaber forms. Good thing you can back that up. Oh wait.

Who's making an assumption? I don't need any more sources than the official game. Kreia posseses knowledge of all the seven lightsaber forms, irrespective of the Exile's experiences.





Originally posted by Darth Sexy


Wtf is irreverent? And you take the time to post on here so you are equally responsible for your pathetic arguments. And seeing as how you keep repeating your nonsense and getting wtfpwned, you need more of a life than me.

I know my self-respect isn't on the line, do you? Easy there honey.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, youre the only one getting wtfpwned and coming back for more. Nothing in your text even hints at logical debating.

That hurt honey?! Why do you always hurt my feelings pumpkin?

Originally posted by Allankles
Plus she showed more knowledge of the force than Kun has shown.

In terms of abilities? No, she hasn't. Exar Kun is a master of Sith magic, something Kreia's neither displayed or confirmed to know, a master of Sith alchemy, again something Kreia has never demonstrated nor said to have been acquainted with it. Exar Kun also knows powers such as Force lightning, Force whirlwind, Force choke (or a skill resembling such, when he nigh instantly killed Odan Urr with it), has several techniques that even post-DE Luke could not defend against, and have never been so much as mentioned anywhere else.

Let's continue the list: drain life energy (source: JA Sourcebook), electronic manipulation, and the ability to wipe memories. Of course, it's stated that these records did not survive 'on Yavin or elsewhere', and that they died with Kun. And these were only some of the "remnant powers", which implies he knows a vast amount of Sith teachings. That's not including the fact he was able to construct his own Sith gauntlet, and knew more about that than Traya.

Compare this what Kreia has shown: force drain, telekinetic lightsaber combat, and some miscellaneous powers (breath control? Force feat? Wow). Kun had completely managed to become adept, and one of the most powerful beings ever in mere months, which speaks volumes for what he had in his possession. Furthermore, as been stated, he gained "more wealth and knowledge than he could ever use " on Ossus, ergo I'm inclined to say he has more sources and knowledge than Traya, and a larger abundance of such.

Edit:

Oh, I forgot to mention hibernation trance (akin to that of Traya's in the beginning of KotOR).

Originally posted by Advent
In terms of abilities? No, she hasn't. Exar Kun is a master of Sith magic, something Kreia's neither displayed or confirmed to know, a master of Sith alchemy, again something Kreia has never demonstrated nor said to have been acquainted with it. Exar Kun also knows powers such as Force lightning, Force whirlwind, Force choke (or a skill resembling such, when he nigh instantly killed Odan Urr with it), has several techniques that even post-DE Luke could not defend against, and have never been so much as mentioned anywhere else.

Let's continue the list: drain life energy (source: JA Sourcebook), electronic manipulation, and the ability to wipe memories. Of course, it's stated that these records did not survive 'on Yavin or elsewhere', and that they died with Kun. And these were only some of the "remnant powers", which implies he knows a vast amount of Sith teachings. That's not including the fact he was able to construct his own Sith gauntlet, and knew more about that than Traya.

Compare this what Kreia has shown: force drain, telekinetic lightsaber combat, and some miscellaneous powers (breath control? Force feat? Wow). Kun had completely managed to become adept, and one of the most powerful beings ever in mere months, which speaks volumes for what he had in his possession. Furthermore, as been stated, he gained "more wealth and knowledge than he could ever use " on Ossus, ergo I'm inclined to say he has more sources and knowledge than Traya, and a larger abundance of such.

Edit:

Oh, I forgot to mention hibernation trance (akin to that of Traya's in the beginning of KotOR).

Could you please identify for me instances where Kun used lightning, whirlwind, drain life, electronic manipulation, memory wipe?

I could list a series of force powers Kreia potentially knows, whether canonically confirmed or otherwise.

I'm not talking about meaningless spectacles, I'm talking about knowledge, in the vein of Palpatine's subtle application of the dark side. I'm talking about how she's shown a deeper and broader understanding of the force than Kun. I never claimed Kun didn't possess great knowledge, I'm arguing that Kreia had more knowledge than him.

Originally posted by Allankles
Troopers? That's why you're such a great debater, this is microcosm of Saxy as a debater






Who did Sadow learn from, who did Ragnos learn from? It's a question without an answer and generally pointless. And the force drain was the full extent of Kreia's knowledge in the force. Let me say this again: Kreia showed herself to be more knowledgable in the force than Kun. Now find the key word in the previous sentence? Shown..... Which is all that matters given it's fiction.







Who's making an assumption? I don't need any more sources than the official game. Kreia posseses knowledge of all the seven lightsaber forms, irrespective of the Exile's experiences.







I know my self-respect isn't on the line, do you? Easy there honey.




That hurt honey?! Why do you always hurt my feelings pumpkin?
pwned bigboy

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
pwned bigboy

pwned bigboy

Originally posted by Allankles
Could you please identify for me instances where Kun used lightning, whirlwind, drain life, electronic manipulation, memory wipe?

How about I post where it's explicitly stated that he knows these powers. The sources of which would be the Jedi Academy Sourcebook, and the Darkside Sourcebook. I can post scans if you'd like.

He doesn't have to demonstrate such powers to know them, considering a canon source labels him as knowing these.



Then do it, Allankles.

And I just listed all the powers Kreia canonically knows, so the rest would be what we call "speculation" on your behalf. None of the techniques that I cited Kun as knowing were based on what he may know, they are what he does know (otherwise known as "factual information".



And this means what exactly? Kun was never noted as a philosophical-esque Jedi or Sith, he doesn't need to look into the depths of the meanings of the Force, and I don't see how a better comprehension of the Force itself means she has 'more knowledge'.

She may be more associated with what the Force is about, but in regards to abilities and knowledge of such teachings? No. That goes directly to Kun, from what we know, and absolutely nothing suggests otherwise.