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Who would win?

ESB Luke I think is far stronger than AOTC Anakin. Anakin was just learning the ways of the force. So was ESB Luke for the matter. Maybe a nice long force and saber battle. Might be a stalemate.

Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
ESB Luke I think is far stronger than AOTC Anakin.

Hardly.

When it comes down to sheer prowess with a lightsaber, Anakin was good enough to give Count Dooku a run for his money, he even faired better than Obi-Wan Kenobi. Let's take a look at some excerpts from the novelization:

"He came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light.

For the first time, Count Dooku lost his little confident smile. He had to work furiously to keep Anakin's blade at bay, dodging more than parrying.

He came on hard, thinking to drive Anakin back and off balance as he had driven Obi-Wan back. But Anakin held his ground stubbornly, his green blade flashing left, right, and down so forcefully and precisely that none of Dooku's attacks got through." (Attack of the Clones novel, Ch. 24).

While it's undoubtedly true that he wouldn't have beaten him, and that fatigue was eventually setting in, I'd love to see a neophyte farmboy like Luke Skywalker do the same. Obi-Wan even remarks that he'd be a fully trained Jedi by the time he was twenty, merely a year away. His power is astonishing for his minimal amount of training, as is Luke's, but Anakin has had a larger amount of time to focus in on that natural talent and turn it into pure skill.

Luke isn't even superior to Anakin in any regard, let alone "far stronger".



No, Anakin had been a practicing the Jedi way for ten years by the time of AotC, Luke had a few weeks, at best, to grasp what knowledge Yoda passed on (as Obi-Wan's lessons lasted only a couple of days in ANH).

Now, while it's certainly true Anakin still was a padawan (as well as had much to learn), he's had a vast amount of more time to train, and he has been taught formally, as opposed to Luke, who wasn't.

In regards to training, and experience, it goes directly to Anakin.



No, Anakin firmly has this match up.

Originally posted by Advent
Hardly.

When it comes down to sheer prowess with a lightsaber, Anakin was good enough to give Count Dooku a run for his money, he even faired better than Obi-Wan Kenobi. Let's take a look at some excerpts from the novelization:

"He came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light.

For the first time, Count Dooku lost his little confident smile. He had to work furiously to keep Anakin's blade at bay, dodging more than parrying.

He came on hard, thinking to drive Anakin back and off balance as he had driven Obi-Wan back. But Anakin held his ground stubbornly, his green blade flashing left, right, and down so forcefully and precisely that none of Dooku's attacks got through." (Attack of the Clones novel, Ch. 24).

While it's undoubtedly true that he wouldn't have beaten him, and that fatigue was eventually setting in, I'd love to see a neophyte farmboy like Luke Skywalker do the same. Obi-Wan even remarks that he'd be a fully trained Jedi by the time he was twenty, merely a year away. His power is astonishing for his minimal amount of training, as is Luke's, but Anakin has had a larger amount of time to focus in on that natural talent and turn it into pure skill.

Luke isn't even superior to Anakin in any regard, let alone "far stronger".



No, Anakin had been a practicing the Jedi way for ten years by the time of AotC, Luke had a few weeks, at best, to grasp what knowledge Yoda passed on (as Obi-Wan's lessons lasted only a couple of days in ANH).

Now, while it's certainly true Anakin still was a padawan (as well as had much to learn), he's had a vast amount of more time to train, and he has been taught formally, as opposed to Luke, who wasn't.

In regards to training, and experience, it goes directly to Anakin.



No, Anakin firmly has this match up.


I agree with what your saying.

Originally posted by Advent
Now, while it's certainly true Anakin still was a padawan (as well as had much to learn), he's had a vast amount of more time to train, and he has been taught formally, as opposed to Luke, who wasn't.

He had more training that Luke, more than enough to give him the win, but Luke's training was more intense, he was trained to be a weapon and a match for Vader fast. He was the last hope (**** you, Leia) and Yoda trained him to become powerful fast, despite the risks.

I just wanted to bring that up.

He was also at a more emotionally and physically mature age and could likely need that extra effort to even make the same impact. Like they say, its easier to learn a foreign language when you're younger because a young mind absorbs information easier and more efficiently. So the month or however long he was on Degobah, was certainly no match for Anakin who had 10 years of formal training as yet was ahead of all his peers by a descent amount.

Anakin has this in the bag.

Advent, how would you personally rate AOTC Anakin against TPM Ob1? Just curious.

Of course it was, but I don't see how that matters (or what purpose it serves in bringing it up), as he still loses, still has less training (and informal to boot), and still has less experience, which was the entire point.

was that to me or Jim??

That was in reply to James' post.

To you, though, I'd certainly put AotC Anakin above TPM Obi-Wan, so I'd definitely say he would win were a fight like that ever to occur.

Hell, I think I might even put TPM Kenobi above ESB Luke.

Anakin.

Luke. He was just toying with Vader. He HAD to lose to him. How would Lucas profit from a 2-part trilogy?

Originally posted by Tangible God
Luke. He was just toying with Vader. He HAD to lose to him. How would Lucas profit from a 2-part trilogy? LOL, i almost thought you were serious for a second.

Originally posted by Advent
That was in reply to James' post.

To you, though, I'd certainly put AotC Anakin above TPM Obi-Wan, so I'd definitely say he would win were a fight like that ever to occur. Ok, I was wondering due to the debate in the Maul gauntlet and Maul vs Anakin and Jango (?) thread...some thread where darthsith19 said that Anakin is close to TPM OB1 and not above him or something to that affect...just seeing what you thought...Do you think AOTC Anakin could take Maul?

Anakin wins but it's a little close. Luke is soooooo underrated.

Edit: Can't remember ayaing that AOTC Anakin is close to TPM Kenobi but not above him, are you sure I didn't say that he was close to AOTC Kenobi?

I'll have to go check, but i believe you said that if he is above him, its not by much.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Anakin wins but it's a little close. Luke is soooooo underrated.

Edit: Can't remember ayaing that AOTC Anakin is close to TPM Kenobi but not above him, are you sure I didn't say that he was close to AOTC Kenobi?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Anakin is barely above TPM Kenobi, while Jinn is solidly above AOTC Kenobi - Jinn was the best swordsman Kenobi has ever seen, he rivaled Mace Windu, he was so strong with the Force that he taught himself how to live after death, and the Jedi who trained him with a lightsaber said that he was the best swordsman that he's seen in 400 years. What has Kenobi done that makes him betetr than that, and don't say beating Maul cause we all know that was all luck there.

There ya go...

Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
ESB Luke I think is far stronger than AOTC Anakin. Anakin was just learning the ways of the force. So was ESB Luke for the matter. Maybe a nice long force and saber battle. Might be a stalemate.

I don't think I have ever read such a contradictory post. How can Luke be 'far stronger' - yet you say they end in a stalemate.

Anakin wins this easily.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
There ya go...
Look again. I said TPM Kenobi is close to Anakin but not above him, you got it backwards...

LOL, yeah I noticed that too.

OK, and barely above TPM OB1 is nowhere near the same as closer to AOTC OB1...thanks though...

Also...
Originally posted by darthsith19
Edit: Can't remember ayaing that AOTC Anakin is close to TPM Kenobi but not above him, are you sure I didn't say that he was close to AOTC Kenobi?
then...
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I'll have to go check, but i believe you said that if he is above him, its not by much.

last i checked, barely=not that much...

Neb, if you "noticed that too" you're just as bad...

Wrong. AOTC Kenobi is hardly above TPM Kenobi with a blade. Gillard calls TPM Kenobi a 6 or 7, and AOTC Kenobi a 7. AOTC Kenobi god pwnd by Dooku in 40 some odd seconds and Dooku was just toying with him - against Maul TPM Kenobi actually came close when using the Dark Side. Again, not saying TPM kenobi's ahead of AOTC kenobi, but he's certainly close with sabers. Force, well, what has AOTC kenobi done with the Force that puts him far ahead of TPM Kenobi? No, AOTC Anakin is close to AOTC Obi-Wan, TPM Kenobi is close to AOTC Anakin, TPM Kenobi is kinda close to AOTC Kenobi.

Agreed, but I never said anything of the sort. You got it backwards, you see that, don't you? Apollo Cloud noticed the same thing that I did, that you got it backwards, how does that make him "just as bad"?

When did Gillard say TPM Kenobi was a 6 or 7? I know he said the AOTC Kenobi was a 7, and ROTS an 8.


Thats just a credit to how powerful Dooku is.


i have heard you say this before, a jedi like Kenobi would not stay the same in anything 10 years later, what do you think he was just sitting around? Obi-wan was a more devoted jedi than anybody, of course he got stronger in the force and a better swordsman, its just common sense.

He said it in the same homing beacon that he was the numbers for Dooku, ROTS Obi-Wan and Anakin and AOTC Kenobi and Anakin.


Somewhat, but also a credit to TPM kenobi being close to AOTC Kenobi. You can see from the fight that Kenobi has lost speed and offensive skills.


Assumptions don't count as proof. Most of the missions during that time were negotiation missions, not fighting missions, not every mission is "go fight Asajj Ventress" or "go fight Darth Maul" you know.

Name one thing that AOTC Kenobi did with the Force, or anything he did between TPM and AOTC with the Force, that it impressive.

AOTC Kenobi can beat TPM Kenobi, both in the force and sabers, but can't pwn him.

You think you have to have a fight for your force powers to go up? How did Sidious get so powerful he didn't fight anybody for years, What Kenobi was doing in those 10 years was training Anakin, of course he got better with the saber and obviously with the force.

No you don't, his opponent was just alot better and made him look that way.

You have to fight for your overall fighting abilities to go up. Who says Sidious progressed during the period when he didn't fight anybody? Obviously, huh? Why is that, when he went on mostly diplomatic missions? He got betetr, but not by very much, and why would he? You don't get stronger by talking to diplomats all day.

You're kidding, right? That's completely false, since Dooku moved far slower when fighting Kenobi than Maul did while fighting TPM Kenobi. Are you honestly saying that AOTC Kenobi fought Dooku faster than he fought Maul during TPM?

AOTC Kenobi is above TPM Kenobi in the force by some margin, but it is nothing to change the outcome of the battle, actually, it would hardly affect it unless it was a pure force fight.

Thats b/c his opponent was so much more precise and better in AOTC, Maul looked to move alot faster than Dooku of AOTC, but who was better? Dooku easily. Kenobi may have looked faster but he was much more out of control as well in the TPM.


you thinking thats all he did for 10 years is you just making an assumption that doesn't make sense. And you think this mainly b/c of what he looked faster when fighting Maul than Dooku??

There are 2 people voted for Luke...

Doesn't matter if he was out of control, the point still stands that TPM Kenobi has more speed than AOTC Kenobi. Dooku was more precise? Yeah, and that's got what to do with speed?

That's not all he did, but it's mostly what he did. It's not an assumption, it's common knowledge that most of the Jedi Missions invloved little to no fighting, we just don't see those missions cause their boring. The Jedi are keepers of the peace, not soldiers. They mainly enforce laws through non-violent methods, they don't usually go and fight hundreds of Battle Droids. Ask anyone here and they will tell you the same.

Common Knowledge, DS you do know that there is a cartoon coming out next year based on the Clone Wars, and Anakin and Kenobi are in it. Its not going to be little micro ones either, the show takes place in the 10 years between episode 1 and 2, so is that what will be seeing Kenobi just talking to people? No action at all?

It is based on the Clone Wars or between episodes 1 and 2, which one? I haven't heard of this cartoon, it should be cool. Yes, there will likely be lots of action in it, I already told you we don't see any of the diplomatic missions because their boring, but it's common knowledge that the Jedi did a lot of diplomatic stuff more so than fighting.

They both rush in stupidly, swing their sabers and cut each other's heads off.

its between TPM and AOTC.www.iesb.net

Im guessing Anakin and Kenobi will not just be on dimplomatic missions here, as you said.

Originally posted by kiddo44
its between TPM and AOTC.www.iesb.net

Im guessing Anakin and Kenobi will not just be on dimplomatic missions here, as you said.
Ookay, cause you also said 'DS you do know that there is a cartoon coming out next year based on the Clone Wars'.

And I never said they would be on diplomatic missions in it, for the last time, those missions we don't see because they are boring! They do go on some fighting missions, just a LOT more diplomatic missions than fighting missions.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Ookay, cause you also said 'DS you do know that there is a cartoon coming out next year based on the Clone Wars'.

And I never said they would be on diplomatic missions in it, for the last time, those missions we don't see because they are boring! They do go on some fighting missions, just a LOT more diplomatic missions than fighting missions.
How do you know that they are more diplomatic missions?? Where does it say that? I guess we will find out if they are fighting anybody in this cartoon since you think this is how you get stronger with the force.

And i said its of the Clone Wars b/c Lucas in that interview says its between EP 1 and 2, and it is a Clone wars show.

Originally posted by kiddo44
How do you know that they are more diplomatic missions?? Where does it say that? I guess we will find out if they are fighting anybody in this cartoon since you think this is how you get stronger with the force.

And i said its of the Clone Wars b/c Lucas in that interview says its between EP 1 and 2, and it is a Clone wars show.
It's common knowledge that they mostly go on diplomatic missions. Their not soldiers, Mace says so himself. What do you think, they just go fight battles everywhere? Yeah right, the Jedi Order didn't even want to send Padawans into the Clone Wars because it was so violent, Maks Leem talks about how she hates all the fighting, if they really spent most of their lives fighting than it wouldn't matter and every Jedi would be like Darth Maul, just made for fighting. Their not soldiers, their like police officers kinda, they do see some action but mainly try to find peaceful solutions.

My god guys, isn't it obvious that Anakin would take a metaphorical sh!t on Luke? Because I think so. I dont really see the point of debating this.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, but you've always been biased against Luke, merely because of his baseball bat swing. Your opinion doesn't count in movie Luke threads.

My opinion doesn't count? Who are you to say my opinion doesn't count? I'm not "bias" against movie Luke at all, I actually like movie Luke more then most of the other characters in the SW universe but I also reaise that he is weak and untrained when compared to almost everyone else.

I never said you didn't like Luke, merely pointing out that as far as fights go you are always against Luke solely for his baseball bat stance. If he is so "weak" then how come he owned Jabba's guards and even bested Vader? Don't say Vader was holding back because even if that's true, he was still trying to defend himself and failed to twice (the kick and the cutting off of his arm). And "untrained" doesn't mean shit, as Kyle with no training killed 7 Dark Jedi and Bane with < one year of training is already well beyond AOTC Anakin, who's received 10.

so just ignore how the fight actually happened and why Luke was able to do that.


How would that be possible, considering Anakin is the chosen one and progresses faster than any jedi ever, b/c of his midi- count.

Originally posted by kiddo44
so just ignore how the fight actually happened and why Luke was able to do that.


How would that be possible, considering Anakin is the chosen one and progresses faster than any jedi ever, b/c of his midi- count.

It could be possible because remember the Dark path always leads you faster to full power.

Originally posted by kiddo44
How would that be possible, considering Anakin is the chosen one and progresses faster than any jedi ever, b/c of his midi- count.
Anakin himself remarked during his first clash with Count Dooku that he is a slow learner. Although he is talented.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin himself remarked in AOTC that he is a slow learner. Although he is talented.

you mean in the fight?? I think he was just saying that, George Lucas said on the AOTC DVD, Anakin was upset b/c he progressed faster than every other jedi and was still a padawan.

Originally posted by kiddo44
you mean in the fight?? I think he was just saying that, George Lucas said on the AOTC DVD, Anakin was upset b/c he progressed faster than every other jedi and was still a padawan.
Count Dooku: "I thought that you have learned your lesson?"

Anakin: "I am a slow learner."

Source: EP II - AOTC

Yes, but he only said that to counter wat Dooku told him. GL himself said Anakin progressed faster thn any other padawan in the Academy.

Also, I think Anakin was referring to his headstrong arrogance.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Count Dooku: "I thought that you have learned your lesson?"

Anakin: "I am a slow learner."

Source: EP II - AOTC

Its called being a smartass...

It was supposed to be obvious...as is all the anti-Anakin fanboys around here.

Anakin takes this easily.

Originally posted by Burnt Pancakes
Also, I think Anakin was referring to his headstrong arrogance.

You're possibly right.


P.S. I know this has nothing to do with the topic, but since I am mexican I wish to know si tu eres tambien.

Unfortunately I don't speak much Spanish. My Mom is the Mexican side of my family, and her Mom didn't teach her Spanish because she was ashamed of her heritage

Well, that's not right... it's like being ashamed of your country...

Anakin takes this easily.

Originally posted by Riverollv
Well, that's not right... it's like being ashamed of your country...

Indeed. I've never really forgiven my Grandmother for that...

What do you mean Cell couldn't take a shot from an ISD? Even in his most base form, he could rip an ISD to pieces.

Wait..what?

Yeah, even I say Anakin wins this one. He's more of an idiot than Luke but still more skilled.

Originally posted by kiddo44
you mean in the fight?? I think he was just saying that, George Lucas said on the AOTC DVD, Anakin was upset b/c he progressed faster than every other jedi and was still a padawan.
Yeah, but Bane wasn't a Jedi, was he? So that quote doesn't count.

Originally posted by Burnt Pancakes
Indeed. I've never really forgiven my Grandmother for that...

Yeah, well... that doesn't mean you can't learn spanish from somebody else so, if you ever want to know anything in spanish, just ask me.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yeah, but Bane wasn't a Jedi, was he? So that quote doesn't count. Yeah but you were also arguing Luke,ROTJ, is more powerful than Anakin in the force, and he obviously had less training, and at best could progress as fast as Anakin, so how could he have gone past him? 10 years of formal training v what 4 years of whatever Luke did>

What could possibly make you think ESB Luke is a good swordsman, DarthSith? From what we see in the movies, he's terrible. It is OBVIOUS AOTC Anakin kills him. He's had a lot more training and he gave Dooku a fine match. Just like kiddo44 says, by only looking at them you can tell AOTC Anakin is far better.

Originally posted by Riverollv
What could possibly make you think ESB Luke is a good swordsman, DarthSith? From what we see in the movies, he's terrible. It is OBVIOUS AOTC Anakin kills him. He's had a lot more training and he gave Dooku a fine match. Just like kiddo44 says, by only looking at them you can tell AOTC Anakin is far better.

he didn't say ESB Luke was better, he said ROTJ Luke is better.

Anyhow, Anakin beats both. And, there already is an AOTC Anakin v.s. ROTJ Luke thread, so he could comment about that fight in there.

Originally posted by kiddo44
Yeah but you were also arguing Luke,ROTJ, is more powerful than Anakin in the force, and he obviously had less training, and at best could progress as fast as Anakin, so how could he have gone past him? 10 years of formal training v what 4 years of whatever Luke did>
Why would he only progress as fast as Anakin? Some people progress faster than others, due to more intense training, just more natural ability, ect. Luke, Nomi Sunrider, Bane, they just were just fast learners than Anakin was.

Did I say ESB Luke was a good swordsman? It's just that he's NOT terrible. He gets a cut in on Vader's arm and Vader calls him "impressive". Not good, but not at all bad. Yes, I already said that AOTC Anakin wins, I just said it'd be a lot closer than a lot of other people here are saying. He is NOT far better, just a little bit better.

Anakin put up a good fight against Dooku, ESB Luke would get totally destroyed against Dooku, Dooku would super mega own him.

But Anakin progressed faster than every other jedi in the PT, says Lucas on the AOTC dvd.


So are your talking that AOTC Anakin is just a little bit better swordsman than ESB Luke?? Your not serious, AOTC Anakin was clearly a better swordsman than ROTJ Luke, he had 10 years of training and was atleast equal to Knight Kenobi, ESB Luke is not close at all. So you think ESB luke is only a little behind AOTC Kenobi in sabers?? DS i know your not that clueless about Star Wars.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Anakin put up a good fight against Dooku, ESB Luke would get totally destroyed against Dooku, Dooku would super mega own him.
1. Dooku underestimated Anakin
2. Anakin had 2 blades for some of it
3. Dooku's form is weak against Anakin's

Luke would get owned - but not super mega owned.


Yup. Unfortunately, Luke and Nomi aren't PT Jedi, and Bane isn't a Jedi at all.


ROTJ Luke beat Vader and Vader was trying to defend himself 100%, he's ahead of Anakin. Glentract provided proof in the other thread that Vader was unable to beat ESB Luke easily, could the same be said for AOTC Anakin? Possibly, though I doubt AOTC Anakin would be very hard for Vader to beat, either. AOTC Kenobi > AOTC Anakin.

So yeah, ESB Luke is close to Vader, not above, but close.

Vader is still better than Luke in saber, and better than him in the force by a very large margin.