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1.Sabers only
2.Force(No sabers)
3.All out

1. Luke bested Vader when using the Dark Side, and without it was able to defend against Vader. Even if Vader wasn't trying his hadest, it's still fairly impressive, and it seemed like Vader was going all-out for most of that fight, as there were several instances where his saber would have killed Luke if Luke hadn't dodged/blocked it. He also bested Boba Fett quite easily, as quickly as Mace took out Jango, which is also quite impressive, though he just temporarily defeated Boba while Mace killed Jango. I say he takes Anakin with just a little difficulty.
2. Hard to say, even in ESB Luke Force Jumped pretty proficiently, and was able to deflect some of the objects that Vader tossed at him off of his back. In ROTJ he jumps some more, and also uses Force Choke on 2 guards at once - if I'm not mistaken, nobody else has been seen to choke multiple people at once before. And Luke seemed to do it pretty casually, too.

What has AOTC Anakin done? Jumpedd off a high cliff into a Tusken Camp and float a metal ball in midair while talking to Padme? Toss a few objects at some Geonosians? I go with Luke, hard to say for sure, though.

3. Luke, just a little trouble.

Originally posted by darthsith19
1. Luke bested Vader when using the Dark Side, and without it was able to defend against Vader. Even if Vader wasn't trying his hadest, it's still fairly impressive, and it seemed like Vader was going all-out for most of that fight, as there were several instances where his saber would have killed Luke if Luke hadn't dodged/blocked it. He also bested Boba Fett quite easily, as quickly as Mace took out Jango, which is also quite impressive, though he just temporarily defeated Boba while Mace killed Jango. I say he takes Anakin with just a little difficulty.
2. Hard to say, even in ESB Luke Force Jumped pretty proficiently, and was able to deflect some of the objects that Vader tossed at him off of his back. In ROTJ he jumps some more, and also uses Force Choke on 2 guards at once - if I'm not mistaken, nobody else has been seen to choke multiple people at once before. And Luke seemed to do it pretty casually, too.

What has AOTC Anakin done? Jumpedd off a high cliff into a Tusken Camp and float a metal ball in midair while talking to Padme? Toss a few objects at some Geonosians? I go with Luke, hard to say for sure, though.

3. Luke, just a little trouble. Then do you think Luke can take Maul?

No, what gave you that idea? Luke destroyed Black Sun HQ with help from Dash, Leia and Chewie. Nobody there was as strong as Mighella was, and a lot of the Black Sun members there escaped.

Meanwhile, Maul gathered the entire Black Sun syndicate in the same place, and took out every last one of them all by himself. Not a single soul survived, and it was hardly any harder for him to do this than it was for Luke to take out a small portion of Black Sun. Luke may have gotten a tiny bit stronger in the half a month or so between then and his confrontation with Vader, but probably hardly progressed at all.

1.Anakin, no question, he was atleast equal to Jedi Knight Kenobi
2.not sure on this, from what we have seen, Luke
3.Hard to say, Vader in ROTJ especially, never had any intention of really even hurting Luke, but Luke still showed to be powerful with the force and when using the darkside, i guess very slight edge to Luke, but not certain b/c Anakin was clearly a much better swordsman than him.

Who is below Luke, and Anakin was at most equal to AOTC Kenobi.

Clearly "a much better swordsman"? Hardly. What do you make ot Luke matching Vader, then?

Originally posted by darthsith19
No, what gave you that idea?Just curious
I think Asajj may be a match for Luke.

I'd personally put Asajj above Luke but yes, it would be a close one. I put ROTJ Luke about even with TPM Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Who is below Luke, and Anakin was at most equal to AOTC Kenobi.

Clearly "a much better swordsman"? Hardly. What do you make ot Luke matching Vader, then?

Well on Vader, thats easy Vader as i just said in ROTJ never had any inteniton of hurting Luke, and ROTJ Luke after a few years is not above Jedi Knight Kenobi in anything DS.

Originally posted by kiddo44
Well on Vader, thats easy Vader as i just said in ROTJ never had any inteniton of hurting Luke, and ROTJ Luke after a few years is not above Jedi Knight Kenobi in anything DS.
Never had any intention of hurting Luke? Lol, so throwing his saber at Luke, attacking Luke when he had his defenses down in what could have been a fatal move, Luke having to jump out of reach of his blade, that's not trying to hurt Luke? Lol, that's riduculous, I will admit that he was conflicted but for msot of that duel his strikes were death strikes.

Luke is above AOTC Kenobi as well. Kenobi lost to Dooku in 40 some seconds and Dooku wasn't even trying his hardest. Luke defeated Vader, and even if Vader wasn't trying to hrut Luke he was certainly trying his hardest to defend himself yet he failed to. Most people here, though it sickens me, would put Vader above Dooku. Why, surely you would put OT Vader above AOTC Kenobi with a lightsaber, right?

AOTC Kenobi could never do this:
http://massassi.yavin4.com/sw_img/e6star28.jpg

yes of course, but if want to act like that fight in ROTJ when Vader, was saying stuff like its "too late for me son" and Luke even saying i know you want hurt me, is like Count Dooku and AOTC Kenobi fighting, ok, thats crazy though.

thats ridiculous, Luke even said he was not trying to do this.



if Vader let him he could.

so much blatant anti-anakin fanboyism shit in here, its hard to breathe.

sabers: Anakin was somewhat prodigal, and tired Dooku out while being tired himself (fighting in the arena and being electrocuted). He had formal training with a saber from multiple sources and was training with a definite style. Luke swung his around like a baseball bat. Vader wasn't trying to hurt Luke, its obvious. When he threw his saber, even if luke hadn't moved it wouldn't have hit him. Vader could have most likely taken him out at any point, up until Luke had to use the dark side...

Force: C'mon...Anakin was far beyond his peers at this point with a significant less amount of training. He jumped over 100 stories, through traffic, and landed on a moving target. And also, its hard to judge how powerful he was in AOTC cause Lucas wanted to save all that for ROTS. Also, you woud have to prove that the first pig wasn't already knocked out by the time he choked the second, although it could go either way there.
And wow...he jumped...I'd put controlled TK feats above that. Plus when Anakin was with Padme (both times) he wasn't demonstrating great skill...he was almost bored the first time, just moving the ball while talking to her, and the fruit - he's not gonna hurl it at her to knock her out. He wanted to try to be nice...bad examples man. And luke deflected debris? Big deal...Anakin blocked far more blaster bolts in the arena than Luke did in his whole trilogy...Anakin takes this too.

All out: Anakin - he's ahead in both, a combination of both would leave Luke crying like the fairy he his.

And youre ranking Luke pretty high with not a whole lot of evidence...higher than AOTC Kenobi and equal to QGJ??? Please...i need way more proof to buy that.

Lol, Vader never said that during the duel. Luke was using the opposite of Dun Moch to try and turn Vader back to the lightside, even if Vader didn't want to hurt Luke, he proved that he was willing to do so for the Emperor when he attacked Luke while Luke had his defenses down, and again when he threw his saber at Luke. Yet Luke defeated him - neither AOTC Anakin or Kenobi could have.


Yeah, cause Luke was trying to turn him back to the Dark Side, so you're going to take his words over what we actually see happen?

Oh, and Vader even says that he was trying to do this:
"There is no conflict. If you will not be turned to the dark side then you will be destroyed."


Then provide proof that Vader let Luke cut off his arm and knock him to the ground.



Where does it say that Dooku was aitred, and if he was it was a combination of Anakin and Kenobi that tired him out. Yes, he did have formal training with a lightsaber, and since Luke never did, that we saw (except with Kenobi on the Falcon), he must automatically lose, right? Oh wait, NJO Luke has never had formal saber training either, and he's the best saber wielder in all of Star Wars. Oh my gad, so now we're taking bad choreography to make Luke look bad? Well, if we're going to use bad choreography as proof then why the hell do people put Vader above Dooku? If Vader is truly above Dooku and Luke beat Vader then we should put all bad choreography aside.

No, his saber would have hit Luke's right side, cut into him. Also, when Vader says "You are unwise to lower your defenses!" that's a killing blow, too. And at any rate, even if Vader wasn't trying to hurt Luke (which he was) Vader was still trying his hardest to defend himself, he didn't let Luke kick him down the stairs, he didn't let Luke knock him to the ground and cut off his arm.

Pretty impressive, but Luke Force Chokes two people at once, something we haven't even seen Vader do ebfore, and successfully Force Cloaked himself from Vader during the duel in ROTJ, and Vader is much more powerful than AOTC Anakin.

Uh, neither of them were knocked out, you can live for 3 minutes without air, that was a few seconds. He just choked them to scare them so they'd let him pass and no one need be hurt.

What does hurling it at her have to do with anything, why'd you put that in there? Deflecting objects that Vader throws at him and Force Jumping quite proficiently is good, and then in ROTJ he would be even stronger than that. Also, in SOTE, he levitates, actually is sitting cross legged in his cell when captured by Bounty Hunters and rises off the ground using the Force.

It is a big deal, seeing as they were coming from Vader, who's leagues ahead of AOTC Anakin with the Force, and that was ESB Luke, ROTJ Luke is even stronger. Didn't Anakin take damage from Asajj Ventress's objects in the CW Cartoon?

Oh wow, blocking blaster bolts, and you think Force Jump and Force Deflect are no big deal, and yet you bring up blocking blaster bolts, something that Luke could do after less than a week of training on the Falcon. Oh my god, Anakin must be uber...

Wow, so 90% of the population here insists on putting OT Vader above Dooku and the same people put ROTJ Luke below AOTC Anakin, even though Luke beat Vader, just because of bad choreography, which, by the way, Vader has, too.

Then read up, I've posted lots of it. Seems like you're really downplaying Luke just because of bad choreography and because you don't like him, seeing as you put Vader above Dooku...

Originally posted by darthsith19
Uh, neither of them were knocked out, you can live for 3 minutes without air, that was a few seconds. He just choked them to scare them so they'd let him pass and no one need be hurt.



There is a difference between holding your breath, and being choked you know.

Originally posted by kamikz
There is a difference between holding your breath, and being choked you know.
Okay, what's the difference? Same restrictions, you can't breathe, neither would make you pass out any more quickly than the other.

Choke can damage you in some ways, unike holding your breathe.

Exactly. Try asking someone to hold their breath, see how long they last, then put a fibre wire around their necks and pull, see how long they last then.

Putting a fibre wire around someone's throat will cut into their neck, maybe even cut it off. Force Choke is used to punish or threaten someone, not do lasting damage to them. it is more like the difference between holding your breath and someone puting their hands around your neck.

Originally posted by darthsith19
It is more like the difference between holding your breath and someone puting their hands around your neck. Maybe. But still, they are different.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Putting a fibre wire around someone's throat will cut into their neck, maybe even cut it off. Force Choke is used to punish or threaten someone, not do lasting damage to them. it is more like the difference between holding your breath and someone puting their hands around your neck.


They are almost crushing their throats, that DOES do damage. Look at the general that Vader kills in ESB in some seconds, that is proof enough.
Also, in ANH, the General that Vader chokes for a while (while talking to him), holds his neck like it's in pain after he has stopped, not like he's just gasping for air. Force grip/choke doesn't just make you stop breathing.

Oh, and Padme fainted after a couple of seconds. Yeah, she was pregnant, but a pregnant lady can hold her breath for 10 seconds without fainting.

ROTJ Luke. Beat OT Vader and OT Vader pwns AOTC Anakin in all ways.

You honestly think Vader was fighting his hardest or even close to it, in either movie? And Vader got his arm cut off b/c he was holding back, and by ROTJ w/ the darkside added, and Vader very conflicted he got his arm cut off, Kenobi in the same situation could have done the same thing.

Originally posted by kamikz
They are almost crushing their throats, that DOES do damage. Look at the general that Vader kills in ESB in some seconds, that is proof enough.
Also, in ANH, the General that Vader chokes for a while (while talking to him), holds his neck like it's in pain after he has stopped, not like he's just gasping for air. Force grip/choke doesn't just make you stop breathing.

Oh, and Padme fainted after a couple of seconds. Yeah, she was pregnant, but a pregnant lady can hold her breath for 10 seconds without fainting.
Force Crush cruches throats, not Force Choke, especially when the user of it is trying not to hurt his opponents, just scare them. Which general is it that we see Vader kill in seconds in ESB? Ozzel is still flopping around a while later when Vader is talking to Piett. It was a lot lonegr than seconds, more like a minute before he fell to the ground and likely longer till he died. If you're talking about Needa, the camera cuts to Vader choking him, we don't know how long Vader had been choking him before off-screen.

With Padme you have a good point. But that was really weak. I don't know why she went down so much faster than Ozzel did.



In ESB he was at the end of their duel, from the point where Luke nicked his shoulder to the end. In ROTJ he was likely holding back slightly, but when he was fighting he was willing to kill Luke, but he wasn't going all-out due to the fact that he was, at the same time, trying to turn Luke to the Dark Side. He was, however, trying his hardest to defend himself, and he failed to twice, once when he got nicked down the stairs and again when he lost his arm. You seriously think that Vader let Luke cut off his arm, not trying to hurt Luke and not trying toi save himself are two totally different things, why would Vader not be trying his hardest to defend himself? And Kenobi, with his Soresu, couldn't do that to Vader, for one thing he doesn't fight with offense, for another he's just not strong enough.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Force Crush cruches throats, not Force Choke, especially when the user of it is trying not to hurt his opponents, just scare them. Which general is it that we see Vader kill in seconds in ESB? Ozzel is still flopping around a while later when Vader is talking to Piett. It was a lot lonegr than seconds, more like a minute before he fell to the ground and likely longer till he died. If you're talking about Needa, the camera cuts to Vader choking him, we don't know how long Vader had been choking him before off-screen.

With Padme you have a good point. But that was really weak. I don't know why she went down so much faster than Ozzel did.



That's why I said "almost", it squeezes the throat, kinda like strangulation. (Or exactly like)


I thought he went down in seconds, gonna have to re-watch ESB.

Also, Luke gets choked by Shimrra, and cannot hold out very long. Apparently, force breath doesn't work, or else he would've used it, same as others would've. So there is more to it than just losing air.
I mean, if someone chokes someone it takes less than three minutes to kill them.
We don't know the power behind the force chokes, but I bet that they could squeeze the whole throat so the pain would be overwhealming, or kill them instantly.

Well, never mind about that, I just wanted to say that choking someone and holding breath isn't the same thing, you can kill someone much quicker than you can wait out a person who's holding his breath. Doesn't mean that I agree that Luke didn't choke both at once though.

Are you sure it was choke and not crush? I thought Shimrra wasn't Force Sensitive? So he just plain choked him with his hands? Hmm, I would think his hands would be stronger than a Force Choke, but I guess it's hard to say. Good points, though.

Vader didn't want to kill Luke in ROTJ.

He was testing Luke and trying to turn him, but his intention was not to kill Luke. He forced Luke to fight and to eventually give in to anger and/or fear.

Luke even acknowledges in the Courtship of Princess Leia that if Vader wanted to kill him in ROTJ he would have.

Of course Vader didn't want his hand chopped off, but such was Luke's ferocity at that moment that Vader found he couldn't hold Luke off on pure defense.

As far as the this match up is concerned, AOTC Anakin beats Luke. He pushed Dooku and visibly made Dooku struggle, plus he had more raw talent and training than Luke.

Maybe so, but he was still willing to, as he proved when he attacked Luke after Luke had lowered his defenses, and again when he threw his saber at Luke.

Agreed, but he was also willing to kill Luke is Luke didn't turn to the dark side. During parts of the duel his moves were deadly, and Luke could easily have died. So while Vader's intention was not to kill Luke, he was still willing to do so if necessary.


I remember the quote, and it refers to how easily Vader could have killed him with the Force. Luke ebat Vader in the saber duel fair-and-square, unless you want to proove that Vader wasn't trying to defend himself, which is riduculous.



And when Vader gets kicked down the stairs?


Really? So then could AOTC Anakin beat Vader with a blade?


Not in the film, only in the novel, the film contradicts this, therefor it didn't happen.


Dooku did seem hard pressed to keep up with Anakin's speed, but Anakin never even came close to getting a hit on him. It wasn't that close, and also remember than Dooku's form is weak against Anakin's.


And what good is raw talent going to be?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Lol, Vader never said that during the duel. Luke was using the opposite of Dun Moch to try and turn Vader back to the lightside, even if Vader didn't want to hurt Luke, he proved that he was willing to do so for the Emperor when he attacked Luke while Luke had his defenses down, and again when he threw his saber at Luke. Yet Luke defeated him - neither AOTC Anakin or Kenobi could have. He didn't want to hurt Luke and anything he said to the contrary was for the emperor's benefit so he wouldn't seem like a traitor. He gave Luke a little warning that he was about to strike (whether subconsciously or not) by saying, "you are unwise to...", so it wasn't much of a "death strike."


Originally posted by darthsith19
Yeah, cause Luke was trying to turn him back to the Dark Side, so you're going to take his words over what we actually see happen? Thats exactly what you're doing with the "There in no conflict." statement. Hypocrite.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Oh, and Vader even says that he was trying to do this:
"There is no conflict. If you will not be turned to the dark side then you will be destroyed." Dude, why do you lie? Is so you have a remote chance of maybe winning? Vader only said the first sentence. Palps said the latter right before he electrocuted him. Nice try though. Next time, get your facts straight before trying to argue it. And there was conflict as it was ANAKIN that felt Luke on the shuttle with Han and the emperor didn't. Conflict.


Originally posted by darthsith19
Then provide proof that Vader let Luke cut off his arm and knock him to the ground. Didn't say he let him, but he was not trying to hurt Luke at all. It's quite obvious that he didn't want to hurt him. Everything he said was for Palps' benefit.



Originally posted by darthsith19
Where does it say that Dooku was aitred, and if he was it was a combination of Anakin and Kenobi that tired him out. Yes, he did have formal training with a lightsaber, and since Luke never did, that we saw (except with Kenobi on the Falcon), he must automatically lose, right? Oh wait, NJO Luke has never had formal saber training either, and he's the best saber wielder in all of Star Wars. Oh my gad, so now we're taking bad choreography to make Luke look bad? Well, if we're going to use bad choreography as proof then why the hell do people put Vader above Dooku? If Vader is truly above Dooku and Luke beat Vader then we should put all bad choreography aside. The novel, the look on his face in the movie; and it was from Anakin testing him, not OB1 who was not a threat to him in the least. He was constantly taunting OB1 and did no such thing against Anakin. Also, NJO luke has far more experience than ROTJ Luke so thats highly irrelevant and moot. Nice try at misdirection though. I didn't mention anything about the choreography. But Luke wasn't even a Jedi yet, and he was just swinging his bat, I mean saber, all wildly devoid of any defining style. Anakin picked up a second saber for the first time against one of the best swordsman in the order's history and was doing pretty well with it. Luke could barely use one with half the finesse.

Originally posted by darthsith19
No, his saber would have hit Luke's right side, cut into him. Also, when Vader says "You are unwise to lower your defenses!" that's a killing blow, too. And at any rate, even if Vader wasn't trying to hurt Luke (which he was) Vader was still trying his hardest to defend himself, he didn't let Luke kick him down the stairs, he didn't let Luke knock him to the ground and cut off his arm. If it were a killing blow, then he wouldn't have given him that little warning before striking. And you're right, cause I know when I'm trying to hurt/kill someone and then they cut off my hand (pissing me off even more) I want to go help them out. No, if he wanted him dead, he would have let his master kill Luke.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Pretty impressive, but Luke Force Chokes two people at once, something we haven't even seen Vader do ebfore, and successfully Force Cloaked himself from Vader during the duel in ROTJ, and Vader is much more powerful than AOTC Anakin. He clearly chokes the left on first then the right one, separately, the first one just still feeling the affects. And he did not cloak himself from Vader, he was just hiding in the shadows. Jedi don't come with lo-jack or something for people to find them.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Uh, neither of them were knocked out, you can live for 3 minutes without air, that was a few seconds. He just choked them to scare them so they'd let him pass and no one need be hurt. If it was just to scare them then he wouldn't need to continue choking the first on while choking the second. And holding your breath is not the same being choked. Watch UFC and watch people get "choked out" or tap out within 30 seconds to a minute...holding your breath, there's no constrictions on your airways; you're just holding the flow of air in. It's common sense.

Originally posted by darthsith19
What does hurling it at her have to do with anything, why'd you put that in there? Deflecting objects that Vader throws at him and Force Jumping quite proficiently is good, and then in ROTJ he would be even stronger than that. Also, in SOTE, he levitates, actually is sitting cross legged in his cell when captured by Bounty Hunters and rises off the ground using the Force. Hurling has a lot to do with it. He controlled it rather than just point and fling. Luke could barely move rocks. And he only deflected one maybe two and then got bombarded with all the rest. Plus, they weren't even moving fast. Well he did nothing in ROTJ to show a power increase, so we cant assume that he did increase by a significant amount, just as your asinine assumption that OB1 didn't improve over a 10 year gap with formal training. As you would say... Is SOTME even canon? I don't think Vader tripping over his own arm really fits the bill.

Originally posted by darthsith19
It is a big deal, seeing as they were coming from Vader, who's leagues ahead of AOTC Anakin with the Force, and that was ESB Luke, ROTJ Luke is even stronger. Didn't Anakin take damage from Asajj Ventress's objects in the CW Cartoon? Ok, throwing something is throwing something, and they weren't moving fast. He didn't deflect, he hit it with his saber and started getting pelted. And I would put Asajj far above Luke anyway, so irrelevant.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Oh wow, blocking blaster bolts, and you think Force Jump and Force Deflect are no big deal, and yet you bring up blocking blaster bolts, something that Luke could do after less than a week of training on the Falcon. Oh my god, Anakin must be uber... HE didn't DEFLECT ANYTHING BY USING THE FORCE!!! Jumping? No. Luke blocked 3 or 4 bolts from a remote after being hit just as much. These were THOUSANDS of blaster bolts (that kill unlike remotes) coming from BD and SBD. Far more impressive. Especially when there were Jedi with far more training than Anakin getting hit and dying from those same bolts. Your anti-Anakin shit doesn't work here. Anakin uber...? Compared to this Luke, yes.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Wow, so 90% of the population here insists on putting OT Vader above Dooku and the same people put ROTJ Luke below AOTC Anakin, even though Luke beat Vader, just because of bad choreography, which, by the way, Vader has, too. Who brought up choreography? He didn't beat vader because of choreography, he beat Vader because Vader didn't want to hurt him in the least, and like your little wet dream Maul, Vader was taken by surprise by Luke using the dark side. Couple that with no intention of harm and anyone would go down.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Then read up, I've posted lots of it. Seems like you're really downplaying Luke just because of bad choreography and because you don't like him, seeing as you put Vader above Dooku... You mean like how you downplay Anakin cause you don't like him? I've argued for Luke plenty of times. I don't mind Luke, I just don't like Mark Hammil. And taking your word on topics doesn't equate to much being as how i've rarely seen you debate without lying or "misinforming" people who may not have the same sources. So save that shit for the birds.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Maybe so, but he was still willing to, as he proved when he attacked Luke after Luke had lowered his defenses, and again when he threw his saber at Luke. No, just no. If you don't want to do something, then you're not willing to...thats what that means.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Agreed, but he was also willing to kill Luke is Luke didn't turn to the dark side. During parts of the duel his moves were deadly, and Luke could easily have died. So while Vader's intention was not to kill Luke, he was still willing to do so if necessary. No he wasn't. Prove it. By proof I mean something other than your opinion.


Originally posted by darthsith19
I remember the quote, and it refers to how easily Vader could have killed him with the Force. Luke ebat Vader in the saber duel fair-and-square, unless you want to proove that Vader wasn't trying to defend himself, which is riduculous. Prove a negative? Prove he was trying his best to defend himself. That onus is on you since you brought it up before.



Originally posted by darthsith19
And when Vader gets kicked down the stairs? Luke saw an opening while Vader was "holding back" and took it. Doesn't prove anything.


Originally posted by darthsith19
Really? So then could AOTC Anakin beat Vader with a blade? Given that Vader would be holding back the same as he was with Luke, absolutely.


Originally posted by darthsith19
Not in the film, only in the novel, the film contradicts this, therefor it didn't happen. Not if a cut scene was around the same time, but I'd have to see it again.


Originally posted by darthsith19
Dooku did seem hard pressed to keep up with Anakin's speed, but Anakin never even came close to getting a hit on him. It wasn't that close, and also remember than Dooku's form is weak against Anakin's. Anakin didn't use Djem So yet (at least not to the same degree) so thats moot. And maybe you should go read the exerpts that Advent posted about that duel. Dooku was tested more than the movie showed...


Originally posted by darthsith19
And what good is raw talent going to be? Well, it certainly helped Dooku lose two hands and a head didn't it?


EDIT: Sorry for double post.

Luke pwns him.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Luke pwns him. No, Luke can't pwn him.

It was still a move that could have killed Luke, as was the saber throw, so where his intention wasn't to kill Luke he was willing to do so if it needed to be done.

What the hell are you talking about?

My mistake, Vader said if he didn't turn to the dark side then he would "meet your destiny". How was it Anakin who felt Luke on the shuttle?

His goal wasn't to kill Luke, but he was willing to hurt him, as he showed numerous times in the duel and also in ESB when he threw objects at him and cut off his hand. At any rate, he was trying to defend himself and Luke still got past his defenses twice.

The look in the movie was pity - please provide a quote.

Doesn't matter, your point was that Anakin wins cause he's had more formal training, which I proved didn't work.

The swinging it like a baseball bat is the choreography. He was a Jedi Knight by the end of the film.

Who says it was the first time? I seriously doubt any Jedi would use 2 sabers for the first time in a deadly situation.

Yet he still beat Vader, so your point is moot.

The warning shows that his intention was not to kill Luke, but the strike was still a killing strike and shows that Vader was willing to kill Luke if Luke didn't turn to the dark side. At the end it took him over a minute to turn back, before he wasn't at that stage yet, one swing and it's over, no time to think about your actions.

I'll have to check the film, and he does cloak himself from Vader. Hiding in the shadows? Lol, yeah, and what was stopping Vader from sensing where he was? The all-powerful shadows?

Good point, Luke was able to control moving rocks, while holding up a stack of them, and hanging upside down, and that was in ESB, he's stronger in ROTJ.

No, he somewhat deflected most of them, and they were thrown by someone who you think is greater than Dooku so they had to have had a lot of power behind them. Quit trying to downplay Vader after consistently putting him above Dooku in the other thread!
Killing Vader, choking guards and taking out all of Jabba's thugs by himself shows a great power increase.

No, SOTME isn't, but SOTE is. Two different books.

Quit downplaying Vader. According to you he's above Dooku, so they ahd to have had tons of power behind them. He did deflect most of them, watch again, he rarely hit them with his lightsaber. Vader >>>>> Asajj at the beginning of the Clone Wars, and her objects hit Anakin, didn't they? And that's CW Anakin, who's ahead of AOTC Anakin.

He did, watch again, your memory seems to be foggy.

Luke got his twice, and deflected far more than that, and that was the second time he'd ever held a saber. Anakin couldn't have done that the second time he'd held a saber.

You did, baseball bat swing = bad choreography.

IT DOESN'T FVCKING MATTER, BECAUSE VADER WAS STILL TRYING TO DEFEND HIMSELF 100%!!!. Maul was in a tired state, and he still won, Vader was in an untired state and he lost. And now are you putting Maul on Vader's level or something, cause before you put him above Dooku and weren't you the one who claimed that Dooku was far above Maul with sabers? So what the fvck is your point, comparing the two of them?

I never said I don't like Anakin, you're putting words in my mouth. You openly admit that you don't like Hammil and your proof completely revolves around bad choreography. You're riduculous.

Bullshit. Do you eer not want to go to work, but you do? Do you ever wake up in the morning and don't feel like getting out of bed but you do? Do you ever not want to change your kids diaper but you do (I can't remember how old your kids are, if they wear diapers still or not)? But you do it anyways, so your "point" is toal bullshit, people do things that they don't want to do all the time.

So now you're saying that Vader wasn't trying to defend himself? Have you totally lost it? Vader had all the reason to defend himself and no reason not to.

Yes it does, Vader wasn't trying to get hurt or let Luke get past his defenses and he failed to defend himself.

Vader was trying his hardest to defend himself. Got it?

Yes, but there was no cut scene. yes, please watch it again, for our sake as well as yours. And watch ESB again, too. ROTJ as well. ANH would be good, too, as you seem to think the remote droid hit Luke as many times as it didn't.

Yes, he did use Djem So. It doesn't matter what fvcking degree he used it to, he still used it, and Dooku's form is still weak against it, therefor Anakin still had av advantage from the start.

There was no RAW talent involved in that battle. raw talent is talent that hasn't been reached yet, that's like saying TPM Anakin beats anybody because he has more raw talent that anybody. Raw talent speaks only of potential, and nothing of someone's actual abilities at the time. The poitn was moot, I'm not even sure why it was brought up in the first place.
Very true.

AOTC Anakin takes this. Luke hasn't had 10 years of training, and given to the fact that their Force potentials are probably very close to each other, Anakin has exploited his abilites in the Force and saber combat mucho mas than Luke, obviously because Luke had very, very little training.

AOTC Anakin wins in all 3, but its not pwnage and AOTC Anakin could have done the same thing as ROTJ Luke did, Vader was just taken by surprise, that Luke camed so strong at him, Anakin who has more training, precision... could have done the same thing to Vader, that doesn't mean he is better then Vader. What Luke did to Vader in ROTJ is the same thing OBi-Wan did to Maul in TPM, both combatants wore weaker then their opponents(Vader and Maul), they just cot them of guard.

Originally posted by Riverollv
AOTC Anakin takes this. Luke hasn't had 10 years of training, and given to the fact that their Force potentials are probably very close to each other, Anakin has exploited his abilites in the Force and saber combat mucho mas than Luke, obviously because Luke had very, very little training.
Yeah, Anakin had more training, guess what? PoD bane had less than a year of training and even the Bane-haters would say that Bane > AOTC Anakin. Oh my god, AOTC Anakin has had 13 years of training, AOTC Kenobi has has 35, and Anakin would own Kenobi. Poor logic there. How is Force Close? Luke claoked himself from Vader. vader >>>>> AOTC Anakin.
Originally posted by Count Makashi
AOTC Anakin wins in all 3, but its not pwnage and AOTC Anakin could have done the same thing as ROTJ Luke did, Vader was just taken by surprise, that Luke camed so strong at him, Anakin who has more training, precision... could have done the same thing to Vader, that doesn't mean he is better then Vader. What Luke did to Vader in ROTJ is the same thing OBi-Wan did to Maul in TPM, both combatants wore weaker then their opponents(Vader and Maul), they just cot them of guard.
Vader was taken by surprise, huh? yeah, at first maybe, how about after they'd been fighting for twenty seconds, was he still surprised? Oh my god, Anakin has more training, who has had more training, Yoda or DE Luke? Who would win? Right, training doesn't matter since we see that Luke is ahead of Anakin. No, AOTC Anakin would be overwhelmed by Vader. And the same thing didn't happen to Vader as happened to Maul, since Maul was tired and he beat kenobi in combat, only lost later due to Kenobi's surprise attack. Vader lost fair-and-square, and why re you putting Vader in Maul's boat anyways, are you admitting that they are close to each other in power?

im just about to leave work DS, so I cant type alot right now, but its coming...

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yeah, Anakin had more training, guess what? PoD bane had less than a year of training and even the Bane-haters would say that Bane > AOTC Anakin. Oh my god, AOTC Anakin has had 13 years of training, AOTC Kenobi has has 35, and Anakin would own Kenobi. Poor logic there. How is Force Close? Luke claoked himself from Vader. vader >>>>> AOTC Anakin.

When you're a Dark Sider you increase your power and abilities FASTER than when you're a Jedi. That has to do with why Bane obviously kills AOTC Anakin, DarthSith. Anyways, Bane has nothing to do with Luke. They're completely different cases. And let me tell you in case you don't know, Kenobi's potential is NO WHERE near Anakin's, so that would explain why Anakin learns faster and is stronger. Now look who speaks poor logic. And DarthSith, I've never insulted you, so lets keep it low.

Kyle didn't have any training, or little, but he still did something very impressive. Hasn't he?

Originally posted by Nikkolas
ROTJ Luke. Beat OT Vader and OT Vader pwns AOTC Anakin in all ways.

Originally posted by darthsith19


I remember the quote, and it refers to how easily Vader could have killed him with the Force. Luke ebat Vader in the saber duel fair-and-square, unless you want to proove that Vader wasn't trying to defend himself, which is riduculous.



You agree that he didn't want to kill Luke outright and then say Luke beat Vader fare and square with his lightsaber? Doesn't correlate. Vader in OT was a far superior lightsaber duelist, credit to Luke for having enough skills to make it difficult for Vader to beat him, but the fact of the matter is that Vader was a better duelist.

Vader did attack Luke when his defenses were down, but that was only to force Luke into a fight. You honestly believe Vader didn't know that Luke would defend himself if he swung his lightsaber at him?

Vader was pretty much controlling the fight in ROTJ without pushing himself, if Vader wanted to beat down Luke with his saber he would have. Vader didn't want to destroy Luke in ROTJ and he was Luke's superior in all aspects of the Jedi arts.

AOTC Anakin was better trained, more talented and overall possesing more knowledge of the Jedi arts, he wins 7/10 times.

Prove all of that.

Originally posted by darthsith19
It was still a move that could have killed Luke, as was the saber throw, so where his intention wasn't to kill Luke he was willing to do so if it needed to be done. Listen to me very carefully...if he was not intending to kill Luke, then they were meant to be killing blows. Virtually ANY strike from a saber can be a killing blow...do you understand?

Originally posted by darthsith19
What the hell are you talking about? You said something about taking what was said over what we actually see, in a sarcastic manner, as if that was wrong to do, but then you're going to say since Vader said, "There is no conflict," that there wasn't. That's what I'm talking about, although now it seems you're slowing changing your view on that.

Originally posted by darthsith19
My mistake, Vader said if he didn't turn to the dark side then he would "meet your destiny". How was it Anakin who felt Luke on the shuttle? It was the good in him that felt his son, rather than a Sith feeling a Jedi. Sidious is 20% more powerful than Vader, and even after he said, "My son is with them," (not skywalker is with them) Sidious still couldn't sense him. Hence, it wasn't Vader feeling him, it was his good side, aka Anakin.

Originally posted by darthsith19
His goal wasn't to kill Luke, but he was willing to hurt him, as he showed numerous times in the duel and also in ESB when he threw objects at him and cut off his hand. At any rate, he was trying to defend himself and Luke still got past his defenses twice. But you still haven't proven that he was defending to his greatest ability. In ESB, he was toying with him til Luke tagged his shoulder and pissed him off for a second and he ended it the way he could have the entire time, thus showing his immense superiority over Luke. There is a such thing as underestimating someone.

Originally posted by darthsith19
The look in the movie was pity - please provide a quote. Please prove it was pity. And i told you it was in the novel, so you can go look it up, as I'm sure you have that book.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Doesn't matter, your point was that Anakin wins cause he's had more formal training, which I proved didn't work. No you didn't prove shit. Anakin, who at the time still had the highest potential of anyone ever (to include Luke) was trained by some of the temple's best for 10 years, while luke got like what, 3 months of training at best, at a much later age? There's no contest there at all. And yes, opening a school and teaching styles and methods does matter as you learn as well, and keep yourself fresh.

Originally posted by darthsith19
The swinging it like a baseball bat is the choreography. He was a Jedi Knight by the end of the film. No, swinging like that is lack of a defining style. You're the one playing the choreography card. And since you say it doesn't matter here, then it doesn't matter in the Vader/Dooku thread...thanks for the retraction.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Who says it was the first time? I seriously doubt any Jedi would use 2 sabers for the first time in a deadly situation. Well unfortunately, you're opinion means jack shit here, and doesn't dictate anything. We have never seen nor heard of him using two sabers before and someone here even said that it was his first time, perhaps LS, Escape, or Advent. In any case, even if he had picked up two before (which he hadn't) i doubt it was enough to become proficient with, as it would take away from his main style training.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yet he still beat Vader, so your point is moot. Vader was holding back, your point is moot.

Originally posted by darthsith19
The warning shows that his intention was not to kill Luke, but the strike was still a killing strike and shows that Vader was willing to kill Luke if Luke didn't turn to the dark side. At the end it took him over a minute to turn back, before he wasn't at that stage yet, one swing and it's over, no time to think about your actions. No he would not have killed him. he could have been confident in his ability to block and defend himself. Also, through his conversations with Luke its obvious that he wanted to kill Sidious as early as ESB, and would not sacrifice his only chance for help (as well as his son) just on a whim.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I'll have to check the film, and he does cloak himself from Vader. Hiding in the shadows? Lol, yeah, and what was stopping Vader from sensing where he was? The all-powerful shadows? Yes, dipshit, shadows. If the room is dark already, you're wearing black and hiding under stairs in the shadows, which are, guess what...BLACK then you would be somewhat hidden. And what good would talking be if you're were busy "cloaking" yourself? lol, wow...good one there buddy!! Prove to me that he was cloaking himself. A quote, a source, something...can't do it, can you? Didn't think so.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Good point, Luke was able to control moving rocks, while holding up a stack of them, and hanging upside down, and that was in ESB, he's stronger in ROTJ. And dropped them all...wow...good control. Again, nice try at ignoring facts by way of shitty misdirection.

Originally posted by darthsith19
No, he somewhat deflected most of them, and they were thrown by someone who you think is greater than Dooku so they had to have had a lot of power behind them. Quit trying to downplay Vader after consistently putting him above Dooku in the other thread!
Killing Vader, choking guards and taking out all of Jabba's thugs by himself shows a great power increase. Uh, bullshit. He hit one or two, then got hit in the back and sides until vader broke the window behind him that sent flying bye-bye. And I'm not downplaying Vader in the least. Look at the film...they weren't moving fast, at least the one that he actually hit. Wow, a guy with a lightsaber taking out a bunch weak-ass "thugs" is not that impressive, when he gets shot in the hand, trapped by Boba, and has help from others. And if you're even trying to SUGGEST that Luke killed Vader, then I'm done with this and dropping you down to the bottom of the scrotum pole, cause thats blatant bullshit and you fcuking know it.

Originally posted by darthsith19
No, SOTME isn't, but SOTE is. Two different books. Thought it was a typo...what is SOTE? When is it?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Quit downplaying Vader. According to you he's above Dooku, so they ahd to have had tons of power behind them. He did deflect most of them, watch again, he rarely hit them with his lightsaber. Vader >>>>> Asajj at the beginning of the Clone Wars, and her objects hit Anakin, didn't they? And that's CW Anakin, who's ahead of AOTC Anakin. Dooku's irrelevant, and the speed with which the objects move IS NOT FAST. The power of the individual is irrelevant, and being as he wasn't trying to kill or really hurt Luke, he could have thrown them "just hard enough."

Originally posted by darthsith19
He did, watch again, your memory seems to be foggy. In ESB? No, i don't believe he did...

Originally posted by darthsith19
Luke got his twice, and deflected far more than that, and that was the second time he'd ever held a saber. Anakin couldn't have done that the second time he'd held a saber. 3 is far more than 2? Wow buddy. Way to fellate a favorite characters feats. How do you know he couldn't do that? He has far more talent than Luke. And yes, we see younglings doing it in AOTC, and since Anakin is above all of them, I'm sure he could do that too. So, you're wrong again. Anakin blocked far more blaster bolts from many more directions while being distracted by other occurrences, not all safe on a cozy ship with an old man telling you what to do. You lose again.

Originally posted by darthsith19
You did, baseball bat swing = bad choreography. That's your opinion, and obviously your attempt at avoiding a point.

Originally posted by darthsith19
IT DOESN'T FVCKING MATTER, BECAUSE VADER WAS STILL TRYING TO DEFEND HIMSELF 100%!!!. Maul was in a tired state, and he still won, Vader was in an untired state and he lost. And now are you putting Maul on Vader's level or something, cause before you put him above Dooku and weren't you the one who claimed that Dooku was far above Maul with sabers? So what the fvck is your point, comparing the two of them? Prove it. Did I say that Maul is on Vader's level? FCUK NO!!!! I never put Maul above Dooku, and Dooku is superior to Maul...and thats all irrelevant. And my point is, not that i didn't state it clearly enough the first time, that Vader was holding back, and didn't expect Luke to tap into the dark side, hence taking him by surprise when being attacked from the side. Do you understand now? This is all typed out, so you can read as slow as you need to, to comprehend it.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I never said I don't like Anakin, you're putting words in my mouth. You openly admit that you don't like Hammil and your proof completely revolves around bad choreography. You're riduculous. Its obvious that you don't like Anakin, and shows in your..."debates"...I don't mind Luke, but don't like the actor. I don't care for HC, but i like Anakin. Choreography never escaped my mouth, or in this case, fingers, so you're ridiculous in trying to bait me into something. Try harder. Try...oh I don't know, logic and not be a fanboy.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Bullshit. Do you eer not want to go to work, but you do? Do you ever wake up in the morning and don't feel like getting out of bed but you do? Do you ever not want to change your kids diaper but you do (I can't remember how old your kids are, if they wear diapers still or not)? But you do it anyways, so your "point" is toal bullshit, people do things that they don't want to do all the time. So you're really going to compare going to work, getting out of bed and changing diapers to killing your own son that you thought was dead already, thusly forcing you into this state of evil? Wow dude. If thats your argument, you need more practice at this. You're in idiot in this case. Well....

Originally posted by darthsith19
So now you're saying that Vader wasn't trying to defend himself? Have you totally lost it? Vader had all the reason to defend himself and no reason not to. I just said there's a chance he wasn't trying his best until the end of the fight when he was overwhelmed.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes it does, Vader wasn't trying to get hurt or let Luke get past his defenses and he failed to defend himself. Not trying to hurt or kill someone equates to not trying your hardest overall.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Vader was trying his hardest to defend himself. Got it? Vader was holding back. Got it?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, but there was no cut scene. yes, please watch it again, for our sake as well as yours. And watch ESB again, too. ROTJ as well. ANH would be good, too, as you seem to think the remote droid hit Luke as many times as it didn't. You seem to think he blocked "far more" than what hit him...you're a tool. Why don't you go watch the OT again. Obviously You're a PT fanboy who knows dick about the OT.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, he did use Djem So. It doesn't matter what fvcking degree he used it to, he still used it, and Dooku's form is still weak against it, therefor Anakin still had av advantage from the start. It doesn't matter to what degree he uses it? Are you fcuking stupid? No, wait, don't answer that, I already know. Then by your logic, anyone who used Makashi, regardless of their skill level, could stalemate Dooku in a saber match. Dooku, who mastered it to the absolute highest degree. Dooku was Anakin's superior in saberwork and Anakin truly tested him, and did better than Kenobi, who you think is his superior. You dolt.

Originally posted by darthsith19
There was no RAW talent involved in that battle. raw talent is talent that hasn't been reached yet, that's like saying TPM Anakin beats anybody because he has more raw talent that anybody. Raw talent speaks only of potential, and nothing of someone's actual abilities at the time. The poitn was moot, I'm not even sure why it was brought up in the first place.
Very true. No, Dooku was still superior to Anakin in sabers, and Anakin, due to his RAW talent and abilities, fcuking PWNED his ass...therefore not moot, therefore, you lose.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Prove all of that.

Are you talking to me?

OK. Putting aside logical deduction i.e. Vader was a lot more powerful than Luke in ROTJ and a superior duelist still in his 40's with a 3 decades more, worth of experience and knowledge in the Jedi arts.

Luke says in the Courtship of princess Leia that he realizes Vader would have destroyed him if he wanted to.

Second, ever since their ESB encounter Vader was conflicted and was very reluctant to destroy Luke. When Luke lowers his lightsaber he deliberately forces Luke to defend himself, and tests the young Jedi without showing any urgency to destroy Luke. If you ever saw Vader fight Jedi he was a lot more intense than he was in ROTJ.

Luke jumps on the platform and Vader destroys it supports, clearly and deliberately preventing Luke from avoiding a fight. Beyond that he doesn't even attack Luke, and you want to believe that Vader wasn't holding back?

Vader was extremely conflicted, on one hand he wanted more than anything to be together with his son and turning his son was the best way to accomplish that end.

Another part of Vader didn't want to fight or even to turn Luke and he was trying to convince himself as well as the Emperor, that he was still the devoted Sith Lord he'd been for 20 years before meeting his son.

He was testing Luke, trying to force him into anger and/or fear , after all Vader by this point was an excellent Sith Lord.

Yes and he did provoke Luke's anger. And with that anger, Luke beat the shit out of him.

Luke wins this fight.

he didn't beat the shit out of him, he hammered his blocking saber then cut his hand off. Luke got the shit beat out of him in ESB, as noticed with all the bruises and physical attacks...Vader lost due to holding back. Luke admitted he would have lost had Vader actually, oh i don't know...TRIED. Also, just because Luke won this ONE duel, doesn't mean he's better than Vader...not in the least. If you recall, OB1 was beating Maul, but Maul was still the better of the two. There's no way, logically, that Luke can win this.

Still waiting DS19...

Personally, I do think it's fairly obvious that RotJ Luke did not overpower Darth Vader based on 'natural ability'. Given what I've read about the topic, it is logical to assume that both Vader's and Luke's feelings regarding their fight was similar to Yoda's feelings about confronting Dooku in AotC. Willing to fight hard against them? Yes. Willing to kill them? No. At least, not without some severe incentive. Furthermore, you have to understand that the second half of this little debacle is a mirror-image of Obi-Wan's fight with Maul; Luke (Obi-Wan) utilizes his sudden burst of anger against Vader (Maul), catching them off guard. In this case, however, you have a person who is naturally stronger in the Force and a natural with a lightsaber, and someone who isn't quite as agile or as quick.

Give RotJ Luke a lightsaber and one to Vader, there's nothing to make me think that Luke could actually defeat Vader, one-on-one without the assistance of the dark side, his father being conflicted, or both.

That said, Anakin wins. But I don't think RotJ Luke is sucky in the slightest. Standing toe-to-toe against Vader requires some sort of skill, since an inexperienced Vader was able to tool six trained Jedi in RoDV.

Originally posted by Gideon
That said, Anakin wins. But I don't think RotJ Luke is sucky in the slightest. Standing toe-to-toe against Vader requires some sort of skill, since an inexperienced Vader was able to tool six trained Jedi in RoDV. and there is no question he is way beyond RODV in terms of power, you can not underestimate how much Vader was holding back fighting his son, especially in ROTJ.

It may seem obvious, but, I'd like a quote, not your opinion.

Vader comments on how he thinks that Luke has more potential than Anakin did in SOTE.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
It may seem obvious, but, I'd like a quote, not your opinion.

Vader comments on how he thinks that Luke has more potential than Anakin did in SOTE.

We know that Luke's potential doesn't surpass Anakin's, and in SOTE, he goes on how he hasn't tried to kill Luke at all, nor would he. He would only kill him if he were 'easily defeated'. Vader was fully confident that he could defeat Luke. It's just a matter of how easy it would be.

Originally posted by Gideon
We know that Luke's potential doesn't surpass Anakin's
How?
"The Force was strong in Luke, perhaps even stronger than it had been in Anakin..."


Vader said he didn't try to kill Luke during the fight in ESB, but Luke was still very good, he was "a worthy opponent" and "strongly oppos him(Vader)." He even went as far as to say that "Luke could have defeated him" if Vader allowed him to get mad enough. We've seen what Vader can do. Luke having a hope at that point in his training is insane. Also, the ROTJ Novel seems to hint that Luke was more powerful. Luke was speed-trained, and, with his anger, he becomes one of the most powerful individuals out there...

Vader is still the Jedi crushing Titan we know him as. Luke is just the character with the most potential and was trained to become powerful fast by the most powerful Jedi ever. Enough so that he overpowered Vader, using his emotions, and Vader was left helpless to Luke's rage.

After Anakin injured, his potential decreased, am I right?

Originally posted by Gideon
We know that Luke's potential doesn't surpass Anakin's,

Do we really? Luke may not surpass Anakin's natural potential but Luke has the Kaiburr Crystal which may very well put him above Anakin in potential.

and in SOTE, he goes on how he hasn't tried to kill Luke at all, nor would he. He would only kill him if he were 'easily defeated'. Vader was fully confident that he could defeat Luke. It's just a matter of how easy it would be.

I'm not going to claim that Luke was stronger than Vader. He wasn't. However, Luke is still far beyond AOTC Anakin, who I don't think would last thiry seconds against Vader.

Where does it say he has a Kaiburr Crystal? Not doubting you, but it's never mentioned in the movie...ever...

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Where does it say he has a Kaiburr Crystal? Not doubting you, but it's never mentioned in the movie...ever...

What the hell is up with you going around questioning everything I say? It's from a source that's been mentioned repeatedly in this thread. SOTE.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Where does it say he has a Kaiburr Crystal? Not doubting you, but it's never mentioned in the movie...ever...

What the hell is up with you going around questioning everything I say? SOTME.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract


I'm not going to claim that Luke was stronger than Vader. He wasn't. However, Luke is still far beyond AOTC Anakin, who I don't think would last thiry seconds against Vader.

I don't get this, how was he far beyond AOTC Anakin?

A question: would Luke have handled himself as gracefully as Anakin did (before getting his hand chopped off) against AOTC Dooku by ROTJ?

Would Luke have survived the Geonosian arena, given how he got his hand shot by Jabba's goons in ROTJ?

People are failing to realize just how much experience AOTC Anakin has over Luke in terms of the Jedi arts. They are also failing to realize that Anakin had greater force potential than Luke, given that he was (you know...) birthed by the force itself.

Vader didn't want to kill his son and that pretty much dictated what happened in ROTJ.

AOTC Anakin takes this.

I have to say, Jolly, this is some utter bullshit coming from you; which is something I never expected to occur. That quote is retconned by Lucas, who - at most - said that Luke could become what Anakin couldn't, more powerful than Sidious. Never has it even been hinted that his potential surpasses the Chosen One, who is conceived by the Force itself, which is exactly what you're suggesting.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What the hell is up with you going around questioning everything I say? It's from a source that's been mentioned repeatedly in this thread. SOTE. Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What the hell is up with you going around questioning everything I say? SOTME.

Because apparently, you're a moron. First off I said "not that I'm doubting you, " and secondly, not only do you double post saying virtually the same thing, but you name two different books.

And for a bonus point!...I asked what SOTE was and when it was but to no avail. Perhaps this is why you're looked at as Nebaris' foreskin around here...

Also, I like how DS19 hasn't yet responded when he was sooo sure he was right...

You can't call people out like that. DS may have a... ya know... life.

Thanks, Blaxican.

Subjekt, I see no point further debating with you, it is:
A. To long of a debate
B. Worth more than it's worth
C. Your poor logic (poor imho) makes me sick, since you're judging by what you see in the film and not taking EU into any account what so ever.

P.S. Go Darth_Glentract!

Originally posted by darthsith19
Thanks, Blaxican.

Subjekt, I see no point further debating with you, it is:
A. To long of a debate
B. Worth more than it's worth
C. Your poor logic (poor imho) makes me sick, since you're judging by what you see in the film and not taking EU into any account what so ever.

P.S. Go Darth_Glentract!

A. Good excuse
B. Worth more than its worth??? What?
C. Poor logic...right. Because the movies (highest form of canon) doesn't outweigh EU. Your blatant ignorance on the matter makes me sick along with your fanboyism. Ill take that as you concede.

Blaxican - whatever...

Fine then, have it your way.


No, it is possibly to strike with a saber with a non-killing blow. Dooku did so twice in AOTC, Kenobi did so in ROTS to Anakin, Anakin in turn did it to Dooku, vader did it to Luke in ESB, how can you say that most are killing blows? But yes, you're right, they were meant to be killing blows.

I was talking about what Luke said, and he was trying to turn Vader back to the light side so, obviously, he had to twist some of his statements to achieve his goal. Why would Vader not be telling the truth?

Lol, yeah, since Sidious didn't sense him then Anakin must have sensed him, not Vader? Lol, no, what the hell kind of logic is that, Vader sensed him because he was right outside his spaceship! He was not as close to the Death Star.

Please tell me why he wouldn't have been defending himself to his greatest ability. Glentract already provided proof that Vader was trying against Luke and couldn't kill him easily. Want me to quote his post? Vader ended it so quickly cause Luke had nowhere else to back up to.

No, I don't have the book; why should I? Quote, please.

Trained by some of the temple's best for 10 years? Lol, no, it was mostly just Kenobi training him and as far as his power goes, it was mostly built of what he did while on missions, which wasn't all fighting like the CW or anything. Proove that the temple's best trained him that entire time. Luke got 3 years, though yes, most of it was informal. But so was his training in NJO and he still ownes everybody. Yoda trained for 900 years, NJO Luke trained for what, twenty, 99% of which was self training, and he'd kick Yoda's ass hard, so your point is moot.

Opening a temple doesn't give you training. You learn through the self experience of it, but it is no training.



No, Luke had a style, it was just bad choreography, which doesn't prove anything. if you're going to go by his undefined style in the movie then go to the Vader vs. Dooku thread and admit straight up that Vader doesn't have a defined style, either, and would get owned by Dooku.


My opinion is backed up by logic, your isn't. Therefor, until you provide proof, I win. Nobody fight with 2 sabers for the first time against a Sith Lord. It's simple logic here, buddy.


Vader was defending himself 100%, so your point is moot.


Yes, it would definitely have been a killing blow, how can you even say otherwise? Just admit that you're wrong here. Okay, so vader was confident, how does that change the fact that he lost? And what help was Luke going to be to Vader if he wouldn't turn to the Dark Side? Which is why vader had to use killing blows, to anger Luke and get him to turn.


Okay, dipshit, explain then why vader didn't just SENSE Luke with THE FORCE! Luke's voice echoed so vader couldn't find out where he was, wow, you are eitehr an oxymoron or seriously need to watch ROTJ over again. The MOVIE is the source, WATCH IT. Vader is unable to SENSE Luke with the FORCE, therefor Luke was cloaking himself! You can't just hide from a Force user UNDER THE STAIRS! Oh my god, you make me sick.


Still a lot more impressive than Anakin, while sitting at a table, moving ONE piece of fruit!


Watch ESB again and then try debating. Trapper by Boba? What the fvck are you talking about?! Boba doesn't do shit to Luke, Luke disarms him in a second. Why would Jabba hire weak-as thugs? Come back and debate after you've watched ROTJ as well.

" Using the Force, Luke manages to deflect it and send it flying as if it had hit an invisible shield. A large pipe detaches and comes flying at Luke. He deflects it. Sparking wires pull out of the wall and begin to whip at the youth. Small tools and equipment come flying at him. Bombardment from all sides, Luke does his best to deflect everything" - ESB script

SOTE is Shadows of the Emperor, set between ESB and ROTJ.


Dooku isn't irrelevant, as you have stated many times that Vader can beat him.



What, did I say 3, I meant there is far more than 2 that he blocks. Watch the scene, it's like 3 minutes long, just go watch it. Those Younglings have been training for 8 friggin' years, that was Luke's first time ever using a saber.


If Maul isn't on Vader's level then quit making that comparison. Proove that vader let Luke cut off his hand.


I do like Anakin, You're full of shit, you know that?

The point was people do things that they don't want to do all the time, which makes your point moot.


So now it's just a chance, huh? Now are you admitting that he was trying his best at the end? And that Luke still beat him?




Not at the end he wasn't, you said it yourself.



Go watch the entire OT again and then get back to me. I hope you're happy.

Originally posted by darthsith19


Okay, dipshit, explain then why vader didn't just SENSE Luke with THE FORCE! Luke's voice echoed so vader couldn't find out where he was, wow, you are eitehr an oxymoron or seriously need to watch ROTJ over again. The MOVIE is the source, WATCH IT. Vader is unable to SENSE Luke with the FORCE, therefor Luke was cloaking himself! You can't just hide from a Force user UNDER THE STAIRS! Oh my god, you make me sick.



Not arguing against you or anything, but how come Vader could read his mind, if he couldn't sense him?

Yeah, really. Since Vader was able to detect Luke without any difficulty earlier in RotJ, not to mention that there is no account of Luke being indoctrinated in Quey'tek that early on, as well as the fact that Kamikz is right: Vader could not have delved into Luke's thoughts without sensing him.

Originally posted by Gideon
I have to say, Jolly, this is some utter bullshit coming from you; which is something I never expected to occur. That quote is retconned by Lucas, who - at most - said that Luke could become what Anakin couldn't, more powerful than Sidious. Never has it even been hinted that his potential surpasses the Chosen One, who is conceived by the Force itself, which is exactly what you're suggesting.

Thanks?

What was the quote exactly? If you don't have it, that's fine, but, I can't remember it. I believe the quote I just supplied hinted at it, actually. If it has been retconned, then, that's fine, but I'd just like to see where.

The Force still could have some mystery to it. Maybe Luke, by chance, could be more naturally potent in it. Plus there is the Crystal thing.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Because apparently, you're a moron. First off I said "not that I'm doubting you, " and secondly, not only do you double post saying virtually the same thing, but you name two different books.

And for a bonus point!...I asked what SOTE was and when it was but to no avail. Perhaps this is why you're looked at as Nebaris' foreskin around here...

Also, I like how DS19 hasn't yet responded when he was sooo sure he was right...

zOMG!!! I'm a noob! I double posted on accident. It's the end of the freakin world. Get over it.

And second, because you going around always second guessing everything I say speaks louder than some shit you typed up about not doubting me. Actions speak louder than words, buddy. Guess what, I tpyed SOTE and realized it was wrong and then tried to change it to SOTME, which is correct, but accidently double posted when I was unable to delete the first post. To anyone who was offended or confused, I am sorry; please forgive me.

Most importantly, can you name anyone around here who has any credibilty whatsoever as a debator (this excludes you) who looks at me as anything other Nebaris' superior in the debate ring, much less his "foreskin"? Why don't you stop acting so childish and get a ****in life. Before reading your last post I had no beef with you at all. Thanks for starting it.

Because Luke wasn't able to bear his feeling's deep down, as Kenobi told him to. Because Vader brought out fear in Luke and broke Luke's guard, perhaps. The point is, for some time Luke successfully cloaked himself from Vader, cause there's no reason why the all-powerful stairs would have stopped Vader from sensing Luke with the Force.


Yeah, but Luke wasn't trying to cloak himself then, was he? Yoda could have taught Luke that technique - NJO Luke knew it, right? So where did he learn it?

I see. So, what you're saying is: you don't have any proof for this theory other than the fact that Vader didn't outright attack Luke at the bottom of the stairs? What a wonderful assertion, Darthsith. I forgot that you don't necessarily require a basis to pass something off in an argument and expect it to hold weight. New style of debating that you're famous for, eh?

Have you checked into the alternatives? That Vader knew he was there, perhaps, and was simply toying with him? Hell, the purpose of the entire situation was for Luke to willingly join Vader and Palpatine. Perhaps that is why instead of fighting with him and risk dying or killing his own son, Vader sought to toy with Luke. That would certainly explain the theory much better than your assertion that: 'Vader couldn't sense Luke's presence but could read his feelings accurately.'



Well, since Luke was in the middle of a Rebel operation that required absolute secrecy and anonymity, I don't see why he wouldn't, with the risk that Vader would be there and all. The fact that he didn't attempt to shield himself even after Vader detected his presence seems to support it.

Bottom line: you've got jack, son.

The script says: "Vader stalks the low-ceilinged area on the level below the Throne, searching for Luke in the semi-darkness."

So he didn't know where Luke was, or else he wouldn't be searching for him. In the shuttle Luke probably didn't realize that Vader was on the Star Destroyer until it was to late. It wouldn't do any good to cloak himself after Vader had already sensed his presence, would it?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
zOMG!!! I'm a noob! I double posted on accident. It's the end of the freakin world. Get over it.

And second, because you going around always second guessing everything I say speaks louder than some shit you typed up about not doubting me. Actions speak louder than words, buddy. Guess what, I tpyed SOTE and realized it was wrong and then tried to change it to SOTME, which is correct, but accidently double posted when I was unable to delete the first post. To anyone who was offended or confused, I am sorry; please forgive me.

Most importantly, can you name anyone around here who has any credibilty whatsoever as a debator (this excludes you) who looks at me as anything other Nebaris' superior in the debate ring, much less his "foreskin"? Why don't you stop acting so childish and get a ****in life. Before reading your last post I had no beef with you at all. Thanks for starting it. To be honest with you, I really wasn't doubting you, and wanted to know. If i happen to "question" things you say, it might be because a. I don't agree, or b. haven't heard that before, which was the case here.

Also, I have no direct beef with you, but if thats the route you want to take it in, thats fine too. Furthermore, the foreskin comment was actually intended for DS19, but i was writing you and thinking about what I was going to reply to him, so for that, I apologize. There's not many here who aren't above Neb.

Now to the original point. I had never heard of SOTE, and since DS19's posts usually have a fair amount of typos in them, I assumed he meant SOTME, and when asked about it, no one answered me. So really, thats all i wanted to know, what it was and when, and then you took it as an attack...well calm down son, I haven't attacked you yet. If I had, you'd know it. However, if this squashes shit, cool, if not, thats fine too...

Originally posted by darthsith19
The script says: "Vader stalks the low-ceilinged area on the level below the Throne, searching for Luke in the semi-darkness."

So he didn't know where Luke was, or else he wouldn't be searching for him. In the shuttle Luke probably didn't realize that Vader was on the Star Destroyer until it was to late. It wouldn't do any good to cloak himself after Vader had already sensed his presence, would it?

Exactly. It doesn't say anything about "Luke cloaks himself from his searching father, " or anything like that. It does however say that he's searching for Luke in a dark room, hence giving more credibility to my "ZomG s0rRY s00p1d Sh@d0W" theory, than your cloaking theory...my next response is coming up next...

That's nice. But Force-sensing isn't exactly like a GPS system, Darthsith. He sensed his feelings and knew that he was somewhere under the stairs. Your point that Luke was shielding himself was rather stupid.



That or he didn't know Luke's specific location or he was toying with him.



He sensed Vader. He didn't sense Vader sense him. Didn't Luke also say that he's "endangered the mission"? If he could have cloaked himself, he would. People don't abandon stealth or stop using it if they have a 'hunch' or a 'possibility' that the enemy has detected him. At worst, they stop using it when they know it's happened. Luke simply continued on with a Force-sign that said: "Hey Dad, I'm right here! " which defies reason and logic. If he could have shielded, he would have.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Fine then, have it your way. Is that supposed to be scary or something? Tool box.
Originally posted by darthsith19
No, it is possibly to strike with a saber with a non-killing blow. Dooku did so twice in AOTC, Kenobi did so in ROTS to Anakin, Anakin in turn did it to Dooku, vader did it to Luke in ESB, how can you say that most are killing blows? But yes, you're right, they were meant to be killing blows. Hence why I said "virtually" dipshit. And you know I meant "weren't" instead of "were."
Originally posted by darthsith19
I was talking about what Luke said, and he was trying to turn Vader back to the light side so, obviously, he had to twist some of his statements to achieve his goal. Why would Vader not be telling the truth? "Lies, deceit, mistrust are his ways now." Why wouldn't he lie in front of his master that could kill both him and his son if he admitted it? GREAT LOGIC DUMBASS!!! Anakin also told Dooku that he was a slow learner, when you know he's not...Why would he say it if it wasn't true?!?! My point was your blatant hypocrisy.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Lol, yeah, since Sidious didn't sense him then Anakin must have sensed him, not Vader? Lol, no, what the hell kind of logic is that, Vader sensed him because he was right outside his spaceship! He was not as close to the Death Star. THEY WERE CIRCLING THE DEATH STAR!!! You know how much of an idiot you are? Sidious sensed that "Lord Vader is in trouble" on Mustafar from Corrisant. How the hell would he (in a more powerful incarnation) not be able to sense the one person he wants to find most? That's why he asked Vader, "I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear Lord Vader?" Because he said "Strange that I have not" . Meaning there was something in Vader that could feel Luke that Sidious could not. Ask virtually anyone here, I'm sure they will agree.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Please tell me why he wouldn't have been defending himself to his greatest ability. Glentract already provided proof that Vader was trying against Luke and couldn't kill him easily. Want me to quote his post? Vader ended it so quickly cause Luke had nowhere else to back up to. Vader ended it so easily cause he was leagues above Luke. I'm not saying he didn't have to defend himself, I'm saying it wasn't to the best of his abilities until the end when it was too late. For instance, he would protect himself from Yoda more-so than he would from Luke, cause Yoda is a bigger threat. I'm sure he defended himself to the level that he had to, but not to his utmost defensive abilities.
Originally posted by darthsith19
No, I don't have the book; why should I? Quote, please. Advent posted it elsewhere. I don't have the book cause i have grown up responsibilities I have to take care of before buying SW books, and my mommy wont go buy them for me. And you left out your..."proof"...that it was a pity look.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Trained by some of the temple's best for 10 years? Lol, no, it was mostly just Kenobi training him and as far as his power goes, it was mostly built of what he did while on missions, which wasn't all fighting like the CW or anything. Proove that the temple's best trained him that entire time. Luke got 3 years, though yes, most of it was informal. But so was his training in NJO and he still ownes everybody. Yoda trained for 900 years, NJO Luke trained for what, twenty, 99% of which was self training, and he'd kick Yoda's ass hard, so your point is moot. Its not moot at all. Kenobi is one of the best; Cin trains all the students, and is one of the best. Yoda gives lessons and demos to younglings and I'm sure other Jedi as well. And Luke did not spend three years on Degobah, so check that shit right there. Luke had something Yoda didn't...an extremely higher potential, to give way to those feats.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Opening a temple doesn't give you training. You learn through the self experience of it, but it is no training. Yes it is. If you open a school and train and teach others, you also get better in the process. It's asinine to assume otherwise.
Originally posted by darthsith19
No, Luke had a style, it was just bad choreography, which doesn't prove anything. if you're going to go by his undefined style in the movie then go to the Vader vs. Dooku thread and admit straight up that Vader doesn't have a defined style, either, and would get owned by Dooku. Prove he had a style. Quote and source. Vader was said to have created his own modified style to make up for loss of mobility in the suit. So prove up.
Originally posted by darthsith19
My opinion is backed up by logic, your isn't. Therefor, until you provide proof, I win. Nobody fight with 2 sabers for the first time against a Sith Lord. It's simple logic here, buddy.
You cant prove he ever trained with two sabers prior to that, and its not logical at all. If you want to argue that, do so with Advent and/or Escape. Yours isn't backed up by shit...
Originally posted by darthsith19
Vader was defending himself 100%, so your point is moot. FACT: If you're holding back, you're not utilizing 100% of your skills or abilities.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, it would definitely have been a killing blow, how can you even say otherwise? Just admit that you're wrong here. Okay, so vader was confident, how does that change the fact that he lost? And what help was Luke going to be to Vader if he wouldn't turn to the Dark Side? Which is why vader had to use killing blows, to anger Luke and get him to turn. BUt he was confident that Luke was able to block, so it doesn't matter if it was a killing blow cause he knew it would be blocked. And having Luke as help would be better than no help at all. Even still, that further supports the idea that he was putting on a front for Sidious. Did you not see the part before that when Luke and Vader were talking and Luke was getting through to him, and he said, very remorsefully, "it is to late for me, son." Hence not wanting to kill him.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Okay, dipshit, explain then why vader didn't just SENSE Luke with THE FORCE! Luke's voice echoed so vader couldn't find out where he was, wow, you are eitehr an oxymoron or seriously need to watch ROTJ over again. The MOVIE is the source, WATCH IT. Vader is unable to SENSE Luke with the FORCE, therefor Luke was cloaking himself! You can't just hide from a Force user UNDER THE STAIRS! Oh my god, you make me sick. LOL, you are without a doubt one the stupidest people Ive ever talked to!!! First you call me a dipshit and then call me an oxymoron?!?! LMAO! Do you know what an oxymoron is? My guess is no. Go do some research dumbfcuk. Prove he was trying to sense him with the force. Zam was hiding from both Anakin and OB1 in the bar, and wasn't sensed till right behind OB1. There goes that theory, huh? Oh noes, Luke's echoing voice threw off Vader when he has the uber force-sensing ability...Escape already started to debunk this ridiculous assertion. And you make everyone sick with stupid theories and fanboy comments.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Still a lot more impressive than Anakin, while sitting at a table, moving ONE piece of fruit! Right, cause not being able to successfully control rocks is more impressive than Anakin controlling a piece of fruit. Dude, seriously, there is no way that Luke has better force mastery (during ROTJ) than Anakin. Period.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Watch ESB again and then try debating. Trapper by Boba? What the fvck are you talking about?! Boba doesn't do shit to Luke, Luke disarms him in a second. Why would Jabba hire weak-as thugs? Come back and debate after you've watched ROTJ as well. LOL, learn to debate period, b1tch. Boba shot his wrist cord around Luke and he was therefore, for the time being, trapped. Come back and debate after you learn to use logic, common sense and spell check.
Originally posted by darthsith19
" Using the Force, Luke manages to deflect it and send it flying as if it had hit an invisible shield. A large pipe detaches and comes flying at Luke. He deflects it. Sparking wires pull out of the wall and begin to whip at the youth. Small tools and equipment come flying at him. Bombardment from all sides, Luke does his best to deflect everything" - ESB script Well, being as how there's multiple versions of the script and that didn't happen in the movie...then it didn't happen at all. Sorry. Watch it, then come back and attempt to debate. He stood there and saw Vader, then got in a ready stance. Vader threw the big piece off the wall, Luke turned and hit it WITH HIS SABER, and then Vader attacked. After that, Vader started throwing more shit at him, till the window broke, and Luke took off like a kite.
Originally posted by darthsith19
SOTE is Shadows of the Emperor, set between ESB and ROTJ. OK, thank you.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Dooku isn't irrelevant, as you have stated many times that Vader can beat him. And thats irrelevant when talking about how fast the debris was moving 20 some yeas after Dooku was humiliatingly pwned. You do understand that don't you?
Originally posted by darthsith19
What, did I say 3, I meant there is far more than 2 that he blocks. Watch the scene, it's like 3 minutes long, just go watch it. Those Younglings have been training for 8 friggin' years, that was Luke's first time ever using a saber. He blocks three, and is hit by at the very least, as many. As far as the younglings, they don't look eight, so you'd have to prove it was eight years (although i see your point you're trying to make) but Anakin is already ahead of them the day he walks into the temple for the first time. If his precog is good enough to label him the ONLY human to be able to pod race, then logic suggests that he could block a few lasers from a remote droid. However, you're attempting to downplay Anakin's feat, saying that blocking bolts from thousands of BD and SBD's isn't impressive or more-so than Luke and his remote. Shall we go off popular consensus?
Originally posted by darthsith19
If Maul isn't on Vader's level then quit making that comparison. Proove that Vader let Luke cut off his hand. I'm not comparing Maul himself to Vader himself. I'm comparing the situation, which i thought was obvious. Two Sith lords that were being beaten by a lesser opponent by way of them tapping into the darkside. And I chose that comparison to Maul, because you are a Maul fanboy and seem to think that the same thing (that happened to him), happening to Vader, is some kind of monumental statement against Vader, when you just dismiss it as "Oh, OB1 got lucky." Well, that street goes both ways...
Originally posted by darthsith19
I do like Anakin, You're full of shit, you know that? That's fine. I'd want to draw attention away from the fact that I was getting pwned too if the tables were reversed. Also, you never responded to my reply to your assertion that Luke killed Vader...


Originally posted by darthsith19
The point was people do things that they don't want to do all the time, which makes your point moot. It doesn't make my point moot whatsoever. None of those things are even remotely close to killing your son. So you need to rethink that stupid assertion and concede that point, cause that was a horrible comparison.

Originally posted by darthsith19
So now it's just a chance, huh? Now are you admitting that he was trying his best at the end? And that Luke still beat him? Luke beat him cause he caught him off guard and used the darkside when he rushed Vader from the side out of nowhere. And yes, I will say that at the end he was defending himself to the best of his circumstantial abilities. Vader has skills beyond dropping to one knee and simply holding his saber up to be hit and knocked away.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Not at the end he wasn't, you said it yourself. No i didn't. I said continuously that he was holding back, and just that he upped his priority to defend himself when caught off guard by Luke.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Go watch the entire OT again and then get back to me. I hope you're happy. Maybe you need to refresh your memory and come back and respond, as you haven't done well here at all. And I'll be happy when you see the error in your ways.

Personally, I'd say Luke by a bit,, but that's me...

Why's that, if I may ask?