Nihilus, Revan, Kun and Vader vs. NJO Luke

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Nikkolas
The four strongest Sith next to DE Sidious who, on his own, can give NJO Luke a fight. So including him and the rest be unfair.

But, in purely the Force, could these 4 take NJO Luke?

Oh and this is OT Vader.

Darth_Glentract
Yes. Easily.

jollyjim311
Luke could hypothetically "speedblitz" them with force powers (like his lightning) before the four could even react... or loop out of the force to throw them off (Nihilus mostly) and then use his lightning...

vader11
Not so easily.

kiddo44
Luke would be killed in a few seconds.

jollyjim311
Luke could just outclass them, and it would be a curbstomp, like how Sidious crushed Kit, Agen, and Seasee, but, who knows. The four could probably win if they had prep time to combine their powers (thanks to Revan)...


Luke could move a black hole... with the exception of Nihilus (who could be handled by a loop and a blast), no one here has shown anywhere close to that much power.

Darth Subjekt
Yea thats true, but with all four working together, Luke would be in deep shit.

darthsith19
Nihilus uses Force Drain, Kun uses his amulet blast, Vader uses Force Crush, and Nihilus uses Force Storm Lightning on Luke all at the same time. Luke tries to defend himself against all those abilities at once, block 2 at the most, and gets curbstomped by the other 2.


And Kyp Durron moved a black hole. Could he take on all 4 of these guys at once? Hell no.

jollyjim311
Luke could loop out of the force, becoming invisible to Nihilus, kill Revan with emerald lightning, and block against the amulet and Vader's attacks, then he could send both Vader and Kun flying back a kilometer or five when he takes the offensive, and then he just picks off Nihilus with his lightning.

Null ARC Avis
and then he can dance in his underwear singing the star spangled banner. this is why i miss the Janus-era. when people pulled shit like this out of their asses, they got shamed out of their rap arguement. LUKE WILL BE DESTROYED! Luke moved a Vong black hole? Nihilus drained a planet, as did Kun, Vader is...vader (so he gets crushed by luke, but whatever) and revan killed hundreds of Sith in his time. Nihilus and Kun alone can throw Luke into hell. with the other wo, he gets DESTROYED.

jollyjim311
Nihilus won't even know that Luke is there if he loops out of the force. Luke can then kill Kun or Revan with his lightning. Then, he has to block against attacks from (Kun/Revan) and Vader. From there he gains an advantage, and launches them both. Then there is just a clueless Nihilus to kill.

If Luke goes about it like that, it is well within his capabilities to win.

Darth Sexy
Jim has a point, while this looks like a curbstomping against Luke, Luke COULD win this.

jollyjim311
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Jim has a point, while this looks like a curbstomping against Luke, Luke COULD win this.

Thank you. At least now I know I'm making sense.

Darth Subjekt
But if he loops out of the force, how can he use the force at the same time? Maybe I'm a little lost on that...

Gideon
Bullshit.

While Luke is definately more powerful and capable than all four of these guys, even suggesting that he could curbstomp them all together borders on absolute stupidity. DE Sidious and NJO Luke aren't that powerful, people. I could easily say that Luke might not think to disconnect himself from the Force before squaring off against Nihilus, and getting owned or weakened by his drain.

Violent K
Question. How the hell does Luke know about Nihilius's drain?

Gideon
Luke is capable of countering Nihilus's drain; whether he will be able or think to do so is what is questionable.

Violent K
Originally posted by Gideon
Luke is capable of countering Nihilus's drain; whether he will be able or think to do so is what is questionable.

He IS Capable, but whether he wants to be is questionable. If I fought Nihilius, I wouldn't know crap about him. Although I would expect the unexpected as a Jedi, I'd think him as a powerful Sith thats gonna lash out a Lightning or a Lightsaber furry. Not a force drain that pwned a planet.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Nihilus won't even know that Luke is there if he loops out of the force. Luke can then kill Kun or Revan with his lightning. Then, he has to block against attacks from (Kun/Revan) and Vader. From there he gains an advantage, and launches them both. Then there is just a clueless Nihilus to kill.

If Luke goes about it like that, it is well within his capabilities to win.

What are you talking about. Luke's not nearly as good as you're claiming. If he was it wouldn't matter that Lumiya had an advantage, she wouldn't have stood a chance against him, much less cut off his hand and puncture his lund. Exar alone should be able to give him a hard time. With Revan, Vader (who should be able to defend himself against any of Luke's attacks) and Nihilus, Luke honestly doesn't stand a chance.

Any of these people should be strong enough to completely defend themselves against his lightning with a lightsaber in hand. Revan arguably knows higher Force Techniques than Luke, some of which Luke probably with have a very hard time defending himself against. With Vader pummeling him with Force Attacks of his own and Exar doing the same (Exar may also know higher techniques than Luke), he's screwed. This is without counting Nihilus at all, who I don't know why you think wouldn't be able to see Luke if he made himself an echo in the Force (assuming he can even make himself the right kind of echo to prevent him from somply draining Luke). Nihilus could see the Exile just fine. Nihilus should be able to add his considerable Force Powers (lifting the Ravenger from the depths of Malachor, for example) to the mix and overwhlem Luke even faster.

Toss in Kyp and Corran and Luke has a chance. On his own he gets raped.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What are you talking about. Luke's not nearly as good as you're claiming. If he was it wouldn't matter that Lumiya had an advantage, she wouldn't have stood a chance against him, much less cut off his hand and puncture his lund. Exar alone should be able to give him a hard time. With Revan, Vader (who should be able to defend himself against any of Luke's attacks) and Nihilus, Luke honestly doesn't stand a chance.
Oh lovely, the Lumiya logic. Read Exile, because it destroys your argument. Kun giving Luke a hard time? He might give him SOME difficulty with a saber, but that's about it.


His lightning isn't regular lightning, in fact we don't know all of its components.

Toss in Kyp and Corran and Luke has a chance. On his own he gets raped.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh lovely, the Lumiya logic. Read Exile, because it destroys your argument. Kun giving Luke a hard time? He might give him SOME difficulty with a saber, but that's about it.

I have read Exile. So what. All it says is that he could have beaten her if he had gone full out. Regardless, he would in no circumstance allow himself to come close to the point of death. It happened, he couldn't stop it. He's not nearly as strong as you seem to think.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
His lightning isn't regular lightning, in fact we don't know all of its components.

Wow, great response. Not. His lightning appears to be no different than electric judgement. Regular lighting that can be blocked by a lightsaber. Big deal. He gets raped.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I have read Exile. So what. All it says is that he could have beaten her if he had gone full out. Regardless, he would in no circumstance allow himself to come close to the point of death. It happened, he couldn't stop it. He's not nearly as strong as you seem to think.
"You could have killed me if you wanted to". Obviously you DIDNT read exile, because you would know that he didn't WANT to kill her and he still had feelings for her.





Yea, no different, except that it's an instakill. Right Glentract, no different.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
"You could have killed me if you wanted to". Obviously you DIDNT read exile, because you would know that he didn't WANT to kill her and he still had feelings for her.

I did read Exile and I apparently understood it much better than you. You don't seem to have read my last post either. I specifically said that Luke could have killed her, but didn't. I also said that he wouldn't have let himself be injured by her under any circumstance. She did. Bottom line, she could injure him and he couldn't do anything to prevent it. Got it this time?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yea, no different, except that it's an instakill. Right Glentract, no different.

Prove it's an instakill.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I did read Exile and I apparently understood it much better than you. You don't seem to have read my last post either. I specifically said that Luke could have killed her, but didn't. I also said that he wouldn't have let himself be injured by her under any circumstance. She did. Bottom line, she could injure him and he couldn't do anything to prevent it. Got it this time?
Apparently YOU don't understand since him not killing Lumiya somehow downplays Luke's abilities.





Lets see. He fires it at a slayer, the slayer instantly dies, therefore instakill. You've been on these forums long enough to know it was an instakill, so don't play stupid.

Nikkolas
Because the Slayer has absolutely no defense for the attack and is not even in the Force per se. Or so the reasoning can go.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Nikkolas
Because the Slayer has absolutely no defense for the attack and is not even in the Force per se. Or so the reasoning can go.

Basically. Let me guess Glentract. "Just because it affected someone oustide of the force doesn't mean it could kill a force user lol".

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Apparently YOU don't understand since him not killing Lumiya somehow downplays Luke's abilities.

You can't deny that she came within inches of killing him even though he was trying his hardest to defend himself.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Lets see. He fires it at a slayer, the slayer instantly dies, therefore instakill. You've been on these forums long enough to know it was an instakill, so don't play stupid.

The Slayer had no defense whatsoever against it. Lightning from any Force User of sufficient strength; Count Dooku, for example, would do exactly the same. It is not an instakill against Force Users of the calliber seen here. If it was Welk, Lomi Plo, and Raynar would have been no problem for him. That wasn't the case. He didn't use it on them probably because they would have just deflected it with their sabers, just as any of these four Force Users will do.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Basically. Let me guess Glentract. "Just because it affected someone oustide of the force doesn't mean it could kill a force user lol".

Lol. Dumbass, I never said that. Pull your head out of your ass.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You can't deny that she came within inches of killing him even though he was trying his hardest to defend himself.
Yes, I can, especially since evidence points otherwise.




This is random bullshit you decided to post without any proof. And since evidence>your nonsense, I'll go with the lightning is an instakill for $500.




Notice how I said "Let me guess Glentract", as if guessing what you were going to say next. Someone needs to learn how to read.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yes, I can, especially since evidence points otherwise.

So Luke intentionally allowed Lumiya to cut off his hand and pierce his lung?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
This is random bullshit you decided to post without any proof. And since evidence>your nonsense, I'll go with the lightning is an instakill for $500.

Great rebuttal. Not. How about you stop being an idiot and at least attempt to forumlate a response to what I have to say. You've have zero uncontested arguments for it being an instakill and plenty that say it's not.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Notice how I said "Let me guess Glentract", as if guessing what you were going to say next. Someone needs to learn how to read.

Great idea, especially since you were quoting someone else's post.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So Luke intentionally allowed Lumiya to cut off his hand and pierce his lung?
Nope, but Luke had no intention of harming Lumiya.




You're right, I have zero uncontested argument against the instakill, seeing as how it's a definite instakill, there's nothing to contest my "arguments". Way to use words you don't understand. And by "plenty", i'm sure you mean "nothing", since Nothing suggests its anything BUT an Instakill.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Nope, but Luke had no intention of harming Lumiya.

So Luke didn't intentionally let Lumiya harm him?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You're right, I have zero uncontested argument against the instakill, seeing as how it's a definite instakill, there's nothing to contest my "arguments". Way to use words you don't understand. And by "plenty", i'm sure you mean "nothing", since Nothing suggests its anything BUT an Instakill.

Re-read my post. You got it all wrong again, retard. You've have zero uncontested arguments for it being an instakill

Captain Bob
There is no evidence, aside from fan (mis)interpretation, that Luke's lightning is special, or that it is "instakill".

It's merely higher-powered lightning -- nothing more, nothing less -- that, in this situation, was enough to take out a particular enemy combatant.

If I was to fire a blaster at you, and it killed you instantly, would you say that it must be as powerful as a turbolaser bolt, because that could kill you instantly too?

On Luke vs. Lumiya: People (including myself, just from hearing about him, at times) tend to ascribe deity-like traits to the powers and abilities of NJO/Post-NJO Luke.

The reason for this is akin to the reason people say things like "nihilus > all" -- they've been seen to do really awesome things, above anyone else, and so they take on these new heights, and so people, not being able to quantify the power gap (if there is one), simply label certain chaps as "uber" and regard their attacks as like magical fireballs, slaughtering everything and everyone without end, except if interfered by by another uber person.

It's obvious that Luke isn't all-powerful, since Lumiya attacked him, while he was unfocused on the problem at hand, and managed to do some degree of damage.

Oh, and saying that "Luke had no intention of harming Lumiya" is irrelevent. Darth Vader in ROTJ didn't want to kill Luke, but that doesn't mean that he would have let himself get kicked around the room because of that -- such an argument makes no sense at all. It's obvious that he wasn't putting all his strength and will into the fight -- that he was unfocused, unsure, etc. -- but he should still have been able to at least hold his own for just a few minutes.

Just as Vader failed in ROTJ to protect himself against his maddened son's wild attack, NJO Luke failed to protect himself from Lumiya's attack. It's obvious that Luke is *not* all-powerful, and this, in fact, shows a good amount of mental weakness on his part, that other Jedi might not possess. Do you think Yoda or Obi-Wan would be confused about killing Lumiya? They'd just run her through, wipe the dust off their robes, and move on. While his compassion may be one of his greatest overall strengths, in this particular fight, it gave support to his enemy.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Re-read my post. You got it all wrong again, retard. You've have zero uncontested arguments for it being an instakill
1. Do you know what uncontested is?
2. I don't need to make ANY arguments for it being an instakill since all evidence points to it. Luke hit the slayer, the slayer died instantly. It's an instakill.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Captain Bob
It's merely higher-powered lightning -- nothing more, nothing less -- that, in this situation, was enough to take out a particular enemy combatant.
No it's not merely high powered lightning because the vong are on an entirely different level of the force. Sidious has a rage instakill, so what are you going to say, that it's merely high powered rage? It doesn't work that you.


Wow, you're comparing blaster fire to force techniques? Wow.


Except he's the most powerful character in the SW universe.


No, it's NOT irrelevant because if Luke wanted to kill Lumiya, he would have without any trouble. The fact that he held back and let her get on the offensive has nothing to do with his power, but with his emotions.


Yet another terrible argument. Yoda and Obiwan have no feelings towards Lumiya while Luke does, so suddnely Yoda and Obiwan>Luke? What kind of bullshit argument is that?

Reality Cell
Hey Sexy, I stepped on a bug and it instantly died. My step = instakill?

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Reality Cell
Hey Sexy, I stepped on a bug and it instantly died. My step = instakill?

Hey Noobaris, a force based instakill is a force based instakill, how the hell are you comparing the two? By your logic I guess Nihilus' force drain isn't an instakill either. Oh wait, it is. Try again troll.

Kadesh
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Luke could loop out of the force, becoming invisible to Nihilus, kill Revan with emerald lightning, and block against the amulet and Vader's attacks, then he could send both Vader and Kun flying back a kilometer or five when he takes the offensive, and then he just picks off Nihilus with his lightning. Agreeable but that has to be before they start their attacks

Kadesh
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
1. Do you know what uncontested is?
2. I don't need to make ANY arguments for it being an instakill since all evidence points to it. Luke hit the slayer, the slayer died instantly. It's an instakill. So why wont regular lightning kill vongs/.

Reality Cell
'Luke hit the slayer, the slayer died instantly. It's an instakill.' = Your argument, Darth Sexy. My bug comparison is valid, so learn at how to argue yourself before you call me a newb, OK? Then we're cool.

Captain Bob
Originally posted by Kadesh
So why wont regular lightning kill vongs/.

Because, according to him, it isn't the power of the lightning being tossed -- it's some magical property that Luke's lightning had. Of course, there's no evidence to support anything but that it was just green-colored lightning, but when you're playing fast and loose with details, you can say pretty much anything you want.

Take a look at this particular quote:


Apparently, either he can't recognize that as an analogy, or he doesn't want to.

And this one:


Check the context, and you can see that this refers to *mental weakness* -- *NOT* overall power. Of course, Darth S. doesn't bother to check the context -- he just takes whatever he wants to hear out of it and bashes that.

Ah well.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Reality Cell
'Luke hit the slayer, the slayer died instantly. It's an instakill.' = Your argument, Darth Sexy. My bug comparison is valid, so learn at how to argue yourself before you call me a newb, OK? Then we're cool.

Yet again Noobaris, for someone who's never won a debate and been banned 7 times only to come back because he's an addict, you're one to talk. Here are the rules are the debate. All of the evidence points to it being an instakill, just like Nihilus instantly draining a planet proves his technique was an instakill basically, so the onus is on YOU to prove it was something else. Since you can't because you can't debate, you're on your way to your 8th ban.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Captain Bob
Because, according to him, it isn't the power of the lightning being tossed -- it's some magical property that Luke's lightning had. Of course, there's no evidence to support anything but that it was just green-colored lightning, but when you're playing fast and loose with details, you can say pretty much anything you want.
How cute, someone who has no concept of who or what the Vong are, so he posts bullshit. Yes dumbshit, it's some "magical property", because the Vong are not only immune to force attacks, but the force attacks actually ARCH away because they're on a different level of the force. Read the NJO before you type.


No, because comparing attack X to attack Y and calling it an "analogy", makes you ignorant.



Right, when you idiots post something resembling an argument, I'll try caring about what you post. In the meanwhile, educate yourself with SW knowledge before looking like a fool and posting ignorantly.

LORDSIDIOUS01
Interesting 4 on 1 match up. If Luke separates them and fights each one on one NJO Luke can win.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
1. Do you know what uncontested is?
2. I don't need to make ANY arguments for it being an instakill since all evidence points to it. Luke hit the slayer, the slayer died instantly. It's an instakill.

1. Learn what "zero" means. Then take note of it's placement before "uncontested."

2. This has already been proven to be BS. How about you go check TUF, read page 447 (assuming you have the hardcover book) and see if you can find any evidence for it being an instakill. Or you could save yourself some time and not look cause you won't find anything. It's not an instakill.

Violent K
Originally posted by Kadesh
Agreeable but that has to be before they start their attacks

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
1. Learn what "zero" means. Then take note of it's placement before "uncontested."
Do you even know what uncontested means?


If by proven to be BS you mean "all the proof is for the instakill and I don't have an argument which proves otherwise so I'll make up some bullshit", you are correct. Luke shoots lightning, instantly kills the slayer. It's an instakill toughpants, get over it.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Do you even know what uncontested means?

Yeah, I do. Do you know what zero means?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
If by proven to be BS you mean "all the proof is for the instakill and I don't have an argument which proves otherwise so I'll make up some bullshit", you are correct. Luke shoots lightning, instantly kills the slayer. It's an instakill toughpants, get over it.

Did you take another look at the book? I even gave you a page number. I guess you didn't, cause if you had you'd know you are wrong.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract


Did you take another look at the book? I even gave you a page number. I guess you didn't, cause if you had you'd know you are wrong.
I don't have the book next to me, so no. I'll ask lightsnake what it says or you can post it, but it's already been proven that it IS an instakill.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I don't have the book next to me, so no. I'll ask lightsnake what it says or you can post it, but it's already been proven that it IS an instakill.

It is not been proven to be an instakill. I would type it up, but I'm feeling lazy so I'll do it tomorrow if no else has by then.

Kadesh
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It is not been proven to be an instakill. I would type it up, but I'm feeling lazy so I'll do it tomorrow if no else has by then. Why wouldnt it be an insta kill? Luke IS the most powerful, its only logical to assume his attacks will do devastating damage

Darth Volter
mmm id say NJO Luke goes dooown hard in this one

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Kadesh
Why wouldnt it be an insta kill? Luke IS the most powerful, its only logical to assume his attacks will do devastating damage

Do you realize what you're saying? Techniques are not instakills in the norm. To ask why something wouldn't be out of the norm is ridiculous. Terrible logical fallacy.

Null ARC Avis
if luke had any really powerful force tequniques, wouldn't he use them on Luminya? if he was as strong as all of you say, couldn't he have just pulled her whip out of her hands? if he ould have, we would have. there would have been a lot less casualties that way. Luke isn't as uber as you all say, get over it. the lightning was never shown to work on force sensitives, or even humans. there is no telling what it would have done o a person. if he had it, he could also have used it on Lumiya. on the other hand, we know what Nihilus can do, what Kun an do, what Revan and Vader can do. All in all, i say Luke is 6 feet under before the fight even starts.

Gideon
Absolute stupidity. Luke was not only getting attacked by Lumiya, but also by the crowd of patrons in the bar - and he didn't want to hurt either of them - not to mention the distraction of Mara's life being in danger.

A no-name Jedi was beating both Lumiya and Aleema in single combat before they barely subdued and killed her in that very same book. Suggesting that the Grandmaster of the Jedi order couldn't do the same to just Lumiya without exenuating and special circumstances is ridiculous. In a straight up fight, he'd assrape her.

Null ARC Avis
then why didn't he just force own the whip out of her hands? no one would have died. Any response to that? and by saying what you just did, you are going back to he Janus-era. because of your prejudices, you overlook facts.

Gideon
Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
then why didn't he just force own the whip out of her hands? no one would have died. Any response to that? and by saying what you just did, you are going back to he Janus-era. because of your prejudices, you overlook facts.

I find it insulting that you're implying that I debate in a Janus-era fashion. We've already established that we use logic now instead of prejudices and biases.

So, let's base this on facts: in the premise of the very same book, a no-name Jedi took on both Lumiya and Aleema in single combat and nearly beat them both. In fact, Lumiya lost a limb and Aleema was nearly knocked unconscious. Only at the very end did they finally subdue her; in Betrayal, Nelani overpowered Lumiya in a direct Force confrontation. Luke is miles and miles ahead of both, and Lumiya herself admits that Luke didn't want to kill her. To top it off, Jacen in particular was deeply concerned about what would happen if Luke discovered that Lumiya was present, because he knew he'd beat her.

Let's now put it into perspective: A passive Luke battled Lumiya amid a plethora of distractions - in the form of enraged bar patrons whom he didn't want to hurt and his wife being endangered - and he still held his own and eventually overcame her.

Put two and two together, dude. Luke is miles ahead of her.

Violent K
Originally posted by Gideon
I find it insulting that you're implying that I debate in a Janus-era fashion. We've already established that we use logic now instead of prejudices and biases.

So, let's base this on facts: in the premise of the very same book, a no-name Jedi took on both Lumiya and Aleema in single combat and nearly beat them both. In fact, Lumiya lost a limb and Aleema was nearly knocked unconscious. Only at the very end did they finally subdue her; in Betrayal, Nelani overpowered Lumiya in a direct Force confrontation. Luke is miles and miles ahead of both, and Lumiya herself admits that Luke didn't want to kill her. To top it off, Jacen in particular was deeply concerned about what would happen if Luke discovered that Lumiya was present, because he knew he'd beat her.

Let's now put it into perspective: A passive Luke battled Lumiya amid a plethora of distractions - in the form of enraged bar patrons whom he didn't want to hurt and his wife being endangered - and he still held his own and eventually overcame her.

Put two and two together, dude. Luke is miles ahead of her.

OWNED!

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Violent K
OWNED!

EXCEPT NOT! Gideon didn't even answer Avis' questions. Avis is right, Gideon is getting into the old way of doing things. You know why, cause he's in the majority, just as Janus, IKC, and Faunus were. It's a cycle.

I find it insulting that you're implying that I debate in a Janus-era fashion. We've already established that we use logic now instead of prejudices and biases.

I agree with Avis. You're slipping into how we used to do things. If you need to be insulted to get your head out of the clouds, then it's gotta happen.

So, let's base this on facts: in the premise of the very same book, a no-name Jedi took on both Lumiya and Aleema in single combat and nearly beat them both. In fact, Lumiya lost a limb and Aleema was nearly knocked unconscious. Only at the very end did they finally subdue her; in Betrayal, Nelani overpowered Lumiya in a direct Force confrontation. Luke is miles and miles ahead of both, and Lumiya herself admits that Luke didn't want to kill her. To top it off, Jacen in particular was deeply concerned about what would happen if Luke discovered that Lumiya was present, because he knew he'd beat her.

This proves....little. So what if Jacen knew Luke could beat Lumiya. We already know that Luke DID beat Lumiya, it just wasn't total ownage as many think it should have been.

Let's now put it into perspective: A passive Luke battled Lumiya amid a plethora of distractions - in the form of enraged bar patrons whom he didn't want to hurt and his wife being endangered - and he still held his own and eventually overcame her.

Held his own? How about got a punctured lung and lost a hand, as well as nearly his life. If Luke could have he would have simply blasted the hell out of her with Lightning (he didn't, so we know it's not an instakill. If it was Lomi, Welk, and Lumiya would have been no problem.) That would have allowed him to keep causulties to a minimum and let him go help the bar patrons immediatly. He couldn't. He's not strong enough to pwn Lumiya.

Darth Sexy
instakill

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
instakill

WTF?

jollyjim311
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
If Luke could have he would have simply blasted the hell out of her with Lightning (he didn't, so we know it's not an instakill.

So because he didn't use it when he didn't want to kill her... we know it's not an instant-kill force technique? Interesting, to say the least.

Known force attacks bend away from Vong, even lightning. Luke has a different technique, seeing as how it wasn't that visually impressive, and probably wouldn't be enough electricity (even if it was normal electricity) to put down a Vong (Slayer!), never mind instantly killing him. Am I correct?

Gideon
It is so cute when you try to debate, Glentract. Do us a favor and just stick to your forte: mathematics.



Gee whiz, Glentract, you're a walking contradiction! Not a week ago, you informed me - and, in fact, were unwilling to debate the issue - that the old way of doing things was the better way, and they were the better debaters. So, I guess, coming from you, this is a compliment.



Like I said, coming from you, it's a compliment, so I should say thanks, even though it is a rather deluded perception.



Since you've never been an expert on 'what is proof' and 'what isn't proof', Glentract, I pretty much consider this assessment... little.



That's all you've got from that argument? Lmao. Why not try the whole 'no-name-Jedi-owned-Lumiya-and-Aleema-in-single-combat-in-the-same-book' or the fact that Nelani owned her in Betrayal.



Given the circumstances, no it wasn't. Without those circumstances, would it have been? Abso-freakin'-lutely.



For such a keen, analytical mind, you do tend to let these 'minor details' slip past you. Let me reiterate: he didn't want to kill her.



He didn't want to kill her, the bar patrons were between him and her, and they were attacking him as well.



Certainly... if he didn't mind killing her and torching a dozen patrons... nice, Glentract!



Special circumstances already outlined.



In the words of Obi-Wan, 'then you are lost'.

Violent K
Originally posted by Gideon
It is so cute when you try to debate, Glentract. Do us a favor and just stick to your forte: mathematics.



Gee whiz, Glentract, you're a walking contradiction! Not a week ago, you informed me - and, in fact, were unwilling to debate the issue - that the old way of doing things was the better way, and they were the better debaters. So, I guess, coming from you, this is a compliment.



Like I said, coming from you, it's a compliment, so I should say thanks, even though it is a rather deluded perception.



Since you've never been an expert on 'what is proof' and 'what isn't proof', Glentract, I pretty much consider this assessment... little.



That's all you've got from that argument? Lmao. Why not try the whole 'no-name-Jedi-owned-Lumiya-and-Aleema-in-single-combat-in-the-same-book' or the fact that Nelani owned her in Betrayal.



Given the circumstances, no it wasn't. Without those circumstances, would it have been? Abso-freakin'-lutely.



For such a keen, analytical mind, you do tend to let these 'minor details' slip past you. Let me reiterate: he didn't want to kill her.



He didn't want to kill her, the bar patrons were between him and her, and they were attacking him as well.



Certainly... if he didn't mind killing her and torching a dozen patrons... nice, Glentract!



Special circumstances already outlined.



In the words of Obi-Wan, 'then you are lost'.

OWNED! Ver.2

Kadesh
Wow so according to glentract lumiya > luke? Stupid

Null ARC Avis
NO! that is not what he said, don't put words in his mouth. He said Luke can beat Lumiya, just with some, if not a lot of, difficulty.

Glentract, thanks for sticking up for me, i appreciate it. now, there were a lot of distractions in Lukes fight with Lumiaya. Well, if a few bar parons are a distraction, imagine what a distraction 4 Dark Lords of the Sith will be! When he is trying to fight one, another will get all force ownage on him, and another will attempte to stab him through the back. I think Luke will be quite confused uder these circumstances!

Also, there is a question left unanswered. If Luke is so Uber, why didn't he jsut rip Lumiya's whip right out of her hands? No casualties, quick fight. so why did't he do it?

another thing. If the force doesn't work on Vong, how will a force instakill work? it wouldn't! there are 2 explanations for this.
1. It was a fore technique designed especially for Vong, and there for would, or would not, have an effect on the sith. most likely...it would not. or...
2. it was physical electricity, amped at a high enough voltage to turn green and kill Vong. if this was the case, a good sith lord an easily stop such an attack with the force.

ow, i want you guys to answer these questions. no "Because Luke is uber" crap either. i want real answers.

Pwned61
To be honest, I don't even think that Luke would win this match up (one on one he takes them, but all four at once, he is human after all), but I feel that any kind of comments about Lumyia being any kind of difficult opponent for Luke just reeks of crap.

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
NO! that is not what he said, don't put words in his mouth. He said Luke can beat Lumiya, just with some, if not a lot of, difficulty.


Fine, do you believe that?

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis

Glentract, thanks for sticking up for me, i appreciate it. now, there were a lot of distractions in Lukes fight with Lumiaya. Well, if a few bar parons are a distraction, imagine what a distraction 4 Dark Lords of the Sith will be! When he is trying to fight one, another will get all force ownage on him, and another will attempte to stab him through the back. I think Luke will be quite confused uder these circumstances!


Except, major difference in terms of distractions here, he didn't want to hurt any of the bar patrons (who again, were trying to kill him), not to mention that his mind was drifting to his wife's condition. In the case of this topic, he's facing down nothing but hostiles. No reason to hold back.

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis

Also, there is a question left unanswered. If Luke is so Uber, why didn't he jsut rip Lumiya's whip right out of her hands? No casualties, quick fight. so why did't he do it?


Probably the same reason no one ever tried ripping a lightsaber out of Grevious' hand, and he's not even force sensitive. I just suppose that it isn't easy to grab a small object in the hands of another force sensitive, who's attacking you, in a room full of people who also want you dead.

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis

another thing. If the force doesn't work on Vong, how will a force instakill work? it wouldn't! there are 2 explanations for this.
1. It was a fore technique designed especially for Vong, and there for would, or would not, have an effect on the sith. most likely...it would not. or...
2. it was physical electricity, amped at a high enough voltage to turn green and kill Vong. if this was the case, a good sith lord an easily stop such an attack with the force.


Or it really is just an instakill, saying it only works on Vong because we've only seen it used on Vong is like saying Kun's amulet blasts don't work on force users because we've never seen them used on force users (not to my remembrance anyway, correct me if I'm wrong)

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis

ow, i want you guys to answer these questions. no "Because Luke is uber" crap either. i want real answers.

Seriously, the Janus days of Ragnos ass raping everyone in the SW universe are long past now.

Darth_Glentract
No problem Avis, thanks to you too.

Originally posted by Gideon
It is so cute when you try to debate, Glentract. Do us a favor and just stick to your forte: mathematics.

Petty insults?

Originally posted by Gideon
Gee whiz, Glentract, you're a walking contradiction! Not a week ago, you informed me - and, in fact, were unwilling to debate the issue - that the old way of doing things was the better way, and they were the better debaters. So, I guess, coming from you, this is a compliment.

I never once said the old way was devoid of flaws. I never said that they didn't insult people without reason. You're doing that here, just as they did then. I maintain that they were better debators.

Originally posted by Gideon
Like I said, coming from you, it's a compliment, so I should say thanks, even though it is a rather deluded perception.

My perception is deluded? Not nearly as much as yours. It is not a compliment.

Originally posted by Gideon
That's all you've got from that argument? Lmao. Why not try the whole 'no-name-Jedi-owned-Lumiya-and-Aleema-in-single-combat-in-the-same-book' or the fact that Nelani owned her in Betrayal.

So what if a no-named Jedi nearly matched Lumiya. Lumiya still gave Luke a hard time. All you've proved is that a no-named Jedi could give Luke a hard time as well.

Originally posted by Gideon
Given the circumstances, no it wasn't. Without those circumstances, would it have been? Abso-freakin'-lutely.

Prove that it would have been ownage under different circumstances.

Originally posted by Gideon
For such a keen, analytical mind, you do tend to let these 'minor details' slip past you. Let me reiterate: he didn't want to kill her.

Nothing slipped past me. I know he didn't want to kill her. Disarming her doesn't mean killing her. He didn't want to kill Raynar but wasn't unable to DEFEND HIMSELF from Raynar. Luke could not defend himself from Lumiya, not wanting to kill her had nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by Gideon
He didn't want to kill her, the bar patrons were between him and her, and they were attacking him as well.

If Luke was as powerful as you claim he should have had not problem disarming her without killing her even with the bar patrons in the way. Disarming her as quickly as possible would have been the number one way to save not only his life and hers, but as many of the bar patrons as well. He didn't and the only logical explanation is that he was unable to.

Originally posted by Gideon
Certainly... if he didn't mind killing her and torching a dozen patrons... nice, Glentract!

Explain why he didn't use it on Lomi Plo, then.

Originally posted by Gideon
Special circumstances already outlined.

Circumstances that should have had zero effect on the fight.

Originally posted by Gideon
In the words of Obi-Wan, 'then you are lost'.

Only in the eyes of a fool.

Lightsnake
Glentract: In Sacrifice, Luke dismantles Lumiya easily. Mara takes Lumiya, NELANI and Tresina Lobi took Lumiya.

Exile showed Luke was not putitng his heart into the fight....in Sacrifice? Luke slaughters her. Very literally. Lumiya's not coming back

Gideon
Lmao, Glentract, are you implying that you're some sort of forum saint? How hypocritical: the Janus-era - the era that you idolize and defend its so-called 'superiority' - was notorious for making petty insults, and you take offense when I do it? At least I provide an argument when I insult someone.

And in this case, one could interpret my insults to be blunt honesty.



Of course not, since in all actuality, that's what it was: flawed.



Of course not, you're not even that stupid.



No, we've already established that 90% of my responses is an actual argument in favor of a debate, the 10% being jabs at you for your apparently boundless incompetence when it comes to certain things. Back in the old days, it was the reverse.



...This is an example of one of those 'certain things' in which you exhibit apparently boundless incompetence. Since they didn't actually debate, I question the methods by which you achieved this conclusion.



No, no. It is. You said the old ways were better, and that the ones who used them were better debaters. I am apparently engaging in some of the Janus-era typical behavior, so by your logic, I must be a superior logician.



...Another example of your apparently boundless incompetence. These 'certain areas' are becoming a common factor.



Yes, through previously established advantages and circumstances.



Lmao. Comparing Luke's achievements and examples of vast power in NJO and the Dark Next sagas to Lumiya and indicating that a 'no-name-Jedi could give Luke a hard time' is an absolutely stupid assertion.

Unless you're going to try to prove that Luke has apparently transgressed in actual power. Which is also stupid, because there is no reason even implied in the narrative of the story. In fact, if we wanted to get absolutely technical, in Suvivor's Quest - a few years before the Yuuzhan Vong invasion - Luke and Mara were hard pressed to destroy a slightly modified droideka. Timothy Zahn elaborated upon this in an interview, saying that "Luke was becoming Superman" and so he intentionally weakened Luke for the course of that particular plot, even though the story itself did not provide an explanation as to this disparity in power. SQ Luke is pathetic compared to DE Luke - despite it being well over a decade in time.

Yet is this to mean that Luke would have trouble with droidekas? No. Because this singular instance does not contradict the several other examples of Luke's awesome power.

Belittling Luke's power based on an isolated instance - fret with exenuating circumstances? Lmao, this sort of thought makes me think that you're trying to start some sort of forum-revolution.



I don't need to, since it was a singular instance. However, if I did want to, I could point out the examples that Lightsnake has been kind enough to provide of Lumiya getting owned or curbstomped by people proven to be vastly inferior to Luke himself.



Nothing sure equates to a whole helluva lot, these days.



Once again: disarming Lumiya isn't as effortless as you describe, and it was a singular instance that does not automatically disregard the previous examples. Why didn't Anakin or Obi-Wan disarm the Magnaguards they dueled with in RotS? The disparity in power between them is magnificent, since the Magnaguards themselves have no Force power at all. Why didn't Sidious disarm Mace in RotS? Why didn't Dooku disarm Anakin or Obi-Wan? Why didn't Vader disarm Luke? Why didn't DE Sidious disarm DE Luke? I could hurl out an infinite amount of examples, Glentract, so stop perversing your already twisted form of logic.



This has been addressed.



So let me get this straight:

If two people are in combat, and the first person does not want to kill the second person - the second person being a ruthless and manipulative sociopath willing to sacrifice dozens of innocent people into attacking the first person to win (and actually doing so) - this has absolutely no bearing on his performance in the fight? Oh, not to mention the fact that the love of his life was in harm's way?

Lmao, one much less forgiving or understanding than myself might assume a few things: a.) You're not a fighter. b.) You've never been in a fight. c.) You've not observed fights. d.) You'd be screwed if you were ever in one.



Trust me, I think we've seen enough from your eyes.

Really, Glentract, this is absolute bullshit. Either raise your game or stick to your calculator.

Lightsnake
Glentract, seriously:

Nelani defeats Lumiya...
Tresina Lobi manages to slice off one of Lumiya's arms. She loses because of Alema
Mara's defeated Lumiya about twice...the first time, Lumiya was thought killed. The second, Lumiya barely survives.
In their two rematches, Lumiya is no match for Luke and says he can kill her whenever he wants to. When he does want to, Luke kills Lumiya easily and brutally

ThoraxeRMG
Originally posted by kiddo44
Luke would be killed in a few seconds.

I know, this is overkill!!!! sad

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