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Sora Bulq and Cin Drallig versus OT Vader, the battle takes place on Invisible Hand, where Dooku fought Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker.

1. Saber battle

2. Force battle

3. An all out fight

For the poll, vote only for what you think would happen in an all out fight, i just want to know, what you think about the first two.

1. The duo pwns him. Individually, either of them could put up a good to great fight against him. Cin was trained by Yoda, was a legendary battlemaster, and a name brought up by Dooku when he was trying to teach Grievous a lightsaber lesson. That stuff doesn't come lightly. As for Sora, he viewed himself as stronger than any Jedi, of course, that doesn't mean that he was, but he wasn't Dooku's right hand man for nothing, and when he fought Mace Windu he put up a good fight. K'Kruhk (or was it Jeisel?) even said that they thought Sora and Mace were equal.

2. The duo wins. Vader could probably take either of them alone (I say probably because Cin's Force Skills are unknown). However, Sora can use Force Lightning, so while Cin is attacking Vader, Sora will shoot lightning at Vader and fry him.


3. The duo. As previously stated, Sora gave Windu a good fight and was stated by one Jedi as being even with Windu. And Cin's got to be about on Sora's level. Vader is stronger, but not strong enough to take out two legends at once.

1. Team 1 wins, but no pwmage.
2. Close, but I lean towards vader.
3. Depends.

What? How, when Sora has lightning>



Depends on what?

Originally posted by darthsith19
What? How, when Sora has lightning>



Depends on what? Ya, sora has lightning. But as debated many times before, everyone who has lightning doesn't automatically become>vader in the force. It depends on who strike first. In general, vader still>them in the force. If he can force crush sora first(or both of them), then he llikely wins. Actually it would be a very close battle I think.

In the all out fight, it depends on whether the fight would go mainly into a saber duel or a force duel. It can go either way.

Originally posted by darthsith19
What? How, when Sora has lightning>



You know darth sith, you have unbelievablely horrible logic. Anybody who has lightning > vader, i guess the nightsisters of dathomir are even more powerful than vader seeing that they have lightning,

Or bastila shan on the SF.

Or even R2 could pwn vader for that matter

I agree, but don't forget, this is Sora and Cin. How is Vader going to block the lightning and Cin's attacks at the same time?



What if Sora starts shooting lightning at Vader right away and Vader is blocking it with his saber, then Cin runs over and starts attacking Vader? Anyways, Vader has always been seen to engage his opponent(s) with a saber before he uses the Force on him.





Did I say that? No, so quit making things up. I said Vader won't be able to block the lightning and Cin's attacks at the same time. Honestly, get Vader's mechanical dick out of your mouth.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I agree, but don't forget, this is Sora and Cin. How is Vader going to block the lightning and Cin's attacks at the same time?

What if Sora starts shooting lightning at Vader right away and Vader is blocking it with his saber, then Cin runs over and starts attacking Vader? Anyways, Vader has always been seen to engage his opponent(s) with a saber before he uses the Force on him. Cin is not a big thread for vader, if vader can attack sora faster than sora does, I think he can handle both of them. I know it is a very hard fight for vader though.

As in the all out fight, yes, I said it can go either way. So, team 1 can win if they have good teamwork. If they have bad teamwork, vader can win also.

EDIT

darthsith19, you make it sound like a force user could never defeat two other force users simply because as he defends against one's attacks, he'll be open to the other's. Ever heard of defending against both at the same time by any chance?

Originally posted by Proteus
darthsith19, you make it sound like a force user could never defeat two other force users simply because as he defends against one's attacks, he'll be open to the other's. Ever heard of defending against both at the same time by any chance?
It is possible, but has it ever happened? And can Vader even block lightning with the Force?

Can't really think right now, but you rarely get a defence which would just focus on one attack. The nature of the force shield for instance is that it protects the user with an intangible shield against the force, energy and physical attacks, meaning that as long as there's nothing overpowering the shield, the number of attacks used at the same time is irrelevant. Sure, it would be harder to defend against two at once, but not impossible. I would think that Vader's vast superiority over either Sora or Cin in the force would grant him the ability to defend against both at the same time.



Pretty sure he can't, but he has his lightsaber.

Not in the Force duel he doesn't.

What good is lightning if you're being choked out?

The lightsaber can't even be used for defence in a force duel? Cheap disadvantage for Vader if you ask me.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
What good is lightning if you're being choked out?
Well, it takes three minutes for you to die from lack of oxygen - people have said that Force Choke works faster, but it took about twnety seconds for Ozzel to hit the ground. So okay, lets say Vader Force Chokes Sora, during those twenty seconds, Sora could be zapping Vader, and Cin could be attacking Vader. So the Force Choke wouldn't be very effective, would it?



Of course not - if you were using a lightsaber then it wouldn't really be a Force duel, would it?

That's assuming that Vader intended for Ozzel to die a quick death.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Well, it takes three minutes for you to die from lack of oxygen - people have said that Force Choke works faster, but it took about twnety seconds for Ozzel to hit the ground. So okay, lets say Vader Force Chokes Sora, during those twenty seconds, Sora could be zapping Vader, and Cin could be attacking Vader. So the Force Choke wouldn't be very effective, would it?
Ok, so what, Vader can't choke two people at once? And you mean to tell me for a FACT, that Sora can maintain composure for 20 agonizing seconds and pull off an advanced force technique? Doubtful. And what would Cin be attacking Vader with, hope and dreams? What can he do as a lightsider? Push...pull...what? Who's to say that Vader can't pull off two separate attacks simultaneously? He can choke one person and go on having conversations with other people as if the person being choked wasn't even there. I think that someone of Vader's caliber can focus and has the power to pull off dual attacks.

Who's to say that he cant snap the neck of an opponent, killing them instantly? It'd be no different than moving an object right?


Originally posted by darthsith19
Of course not - if you were using a lightsaber then it wouldn't really be a Force duel, would it? Well, characters use the force to amplify their saber abilities so that's not really a pure saber fight, is it?

He can't until it's proven that he can.



Since when was Force Lightning an "advanced Force tecnhique"? Quinlan Vos usedit when possied off having never beent rained with it. Bane destroyed a room with it an hour after it was taught to him. Yes, Sora can use it, so what if he is being choked? Give em a gun and start strangeling me, I can still shoot you.



With the Force, dummy.



It's in the Invisible Hand. He could chuck Vader out a window after breaking it with an object, drop the catwalk on him, whatever. The point is, he can attack Vader.



Thinking he can doesn't mean shit. You have to prove that he can choke two Force Sensitives at once for it to be true.



He ca if you prove that he can. Otherwise I could just say that Cin could snap Vader's neck first.

Originally posted by darthsith19
He can't until it's proven that he can.
Yes its debatable, we have seen malak someone slightly below vader do it with the force.

And theres this scan which i find ambiguous,

1) He could have either force waved them but seeing that their corpses are just a feet or 2 away from them, i doubt it

2) Instantly crushing 10 of them with the force after using TK to lift them and suspend them

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/5408/empirevol3038ta6.jpg


Originally posted by darthsith19

Since when was Force Lightning an "advanced Force tecnhique"? iQuinlan Vos usedit when possied off having never beent rained with it. Bane destroyed a room with it an hour after it was taught to him. Yes, Sora can use it, so what if he is being choked? Give em a gun and start strangeling me, I can still shoot you. The thing is would you be trying to break free of the grip or still focusing on killing your enemy?

And vader can execute a force crush which immobalises its victims immediately seeing that it isnt on one part of your body but your whole structure


Originally posted by darthsith19

With the Force, dummy. Push? Pull? I only see sora being capable of maybe killing vader when he is caught off guard with lightning


Originally posted by darthsith19

It's in the Invisible Hand. He could chuck Vader out a window after breaking it with an object, drop the catwalk on him, whatever. The point is, he can attack Vader. Vader can do the same exact thing, just that its alot more devastating, or we have vaders massive TK ability tossing people like ragdolls

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/8969/talesvolume1172tn3.jpg





Originally posted by darthsith19


Thinking he can doesn't mean shit. You have to prove that he can choke two Force Sensitives at once for it to be true. Again seeing that malak, whoms force mastery is lower than vader do it, i dont see why vader, malaks superior cant do it, and seeing that he could have choked 10 wild animals at once.

Darthsith back to "You have to prove this, you have to prove that" when you have yet to actually prove anything?


Originally posted by darthsith19

He ca if you prove that he can. Otherwise I could just say that Cin could snap Vader's neck first. Prove that cin drallig knows dark side techniques which snap peopls necks like that.

Prove up or shut up, You have sources you better name them, quote them. Now

Originally posted by darthsith19
He can't until it's proven that he can. Really? Ok, then prove to me that Sora can still execute lightning attacks while being choked by a superior force user. Oh wait...you can't.



Originally posted by darthsith19
Since when was Force Lightning an "advanced Force tecnhique"? Quinlan Vos usedit when possied off having never beent rained with it. Bane destroyed a room with it an hour after it was taught to him. Yes, Sora can use it, so what if he is being choked? Give em a gun and start strangeling me, I can still shoot you.
Could Maul do it? No, and he was pretty powerful. And bane did after he was taught it. I'm sure he didn't wake up one morning after knowing little of the force and just started using it. We've only seen powerful people doing it, Sith wise.


Originally posted by darthsith19
With the Force, dummy. Dummy...oh, that one stung. I meant examples bright guy.



Originally posted by darthsith19
It's in the Invisible Hand. He could chuck Vader out a window after breaking it with an object, drop the catwalk on him, whatever. The point is, he can attack Vader. Right, cause that's not what Vader does and excels at. And Vader, being evil and more powerful, would most likely attack first to ensure the upper-hand. And in Cin breaks a window, he'd be sucked out as well. And thinking back now to ESB, Luke got sucked out while Vader stood strong. So prove any of that could happen.



Originally posted by darthsith19
Thinking he can doesn't mean shit. You have to prove that he can choke two Force Sensitives at once for it to be true. Does Vader eat, piss or shit?



Originally posted by darthsith19
He ca if you prove that he can. Otherwise I could just say that Cin could snap Vader's neck first. Not something a Jedi would do. And if TK is just moving things with your mind, than he could, quite easily, "move" the bones in his neck, or twist his head around. It's not rocket science here.

And as Kadesh said, you haven't proved shit yet, so we're still waiting.

I don't have to prove the obvious, as there's no logical reason why Sora couldn't still use lightning is doesn't need to be proven. However, there is reason to believe that Vader wouldn't be able to Force Choke tow powerful Force Users at once, seeing as if he could, why didn't he just Force Choke Kenobi to death in ANH, or Force Choke the Dark Woman, Darth Maul when they fought, the Jedi in Purge, ect.



Logically, if a Jedi Knight who's kida strong can summon it just by being anrgy a powerful Sith Lord could summon it. Just because Maul never used it doesn't mean that he couldn't, he just preferred using his lightsaber. Bane was taught it by a Sith Apprentice who could barely summon it herself and he still destroyed a room an hour after learning it. But you can't just use an "advanced Force technique" having never been taught it, just because you are angry, which is exactly what Quinlan Vos did, in between TPM and AOTC. Force Lightning is a basic dark side technique, it's not advanced.



Let me get this straight - Vader is going to topple Cin under a catwalk, through him out a window, choke Sora Bulq, while blocking Sora's lightning, all at the same time? That's a rather large assumption. In ESB the wind current wasn't strong enough where Vader was to suck him out. Cin could break the window and then grab onto something while Vader, busing choking Sora and blocking the lightning at the same time (assuming he can block the lightning period) won't have time to grab onto anything and will be sucked out. So what if Sora is, too, Cin's still alive so his team wins.



What the hell is wrong with you? This has nothing to do with anything that I said.




If Vader could do it so easily, why didn't he simply snap Cin's neck in ROTS? And Bene's, for that matter? Why did he even engage them in a saber duel?



And crushing ten of them tires him so greatly that he is forced to use his lightsaber to kill the last one, he can't even use the Force to get it. And those are just creatures of no skill, I want proof that he can do that to two powerful force users.



Focusing on killing your enemy. Once Vader is zapped, the choke doesn't matter. There's a 50/50 chance that Vader would crush Sora first, 5/50 Cin. If he crushes Sora first, he might win, but we can't say for sure because we don't know how good Cin is with the Force. But if he crushes Cin first, Sora can zap him quick and win.



Agreed. But can he do that to Cin, while choking Sora and block the lightning? Doubtful.



Malak and Vader are close, but anyways, when did Malak Force Choke more than one force user at a time?



Oh, but as subjekt says, it is simple TK, and all Jedi know simple TK. If you want a source for that then you had better ask him.






What do you want me to post proof of? That Cin can use TK? Tell me what you want proof of and I will tell you. But I don't need to provide proof for something like "Cin can use tk", or anything obvious.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I don't have to prove the obvious, as there's no logical reason why Sora couldn't still use lightning is doesn't need to be proven. However, there is reason to believe that Vader wouldn't be able to Force Choke tow powerful Force Users at once, seeing as if he could, why didn't he just Force Choke Kenobi to death in ANH, or Force Choke the Dark Woman, Darth Maul when they fought, the Jedi in Purge, ect. It's not obvious at all. If, as you say, we've never seen a force user being choked by Vader than we don't know how they would react, correct? You're just assuming that he can because you like him and are trying to downplay Vader. That's whats obvious. And as you say later in your little post, maybe Vader prefers to engage people in saber combat first. However in a force only duel, he won't have his saber and have to resort immediately to force powers. Not that hard to understand.



Originally posted by darthsith19
Logically, if a Jedi Knight who's kida strong can summon it just by being anrgy a powerful Sith Lord could summon it. Just because Maul never used it doesn't mean that he couldn't, he just preferred using his lightsaber. Bane was taught it by a Sith Apprentice who could barely summon it herself and he still destroyed a room an hour after learning it. But you can't just use an "advanced Force technique" having never been taught it, just because you are angry, which is exactly what Quinlan Vos did, in between TPM and AOTC. Force Lightning is a basic dark side technique, it's not advanced.
Prove that Maul could do it then. That still has no bearing on pulling it off while being choked to death almost instantly, or even crushed by Vader. You have to prove that he can still do it while being choked. And if it was basic, all Sith would do it. The ones who do do it, seem to prefer it at the beginning of a duel.


Originally posted by darthsith19
Let me get this straight - Vader is going to topple Cin under a catwalk, through him out a window, choke Sora Bulq, while blocking Sora's lightning, all at the same time? That's a rather large assumption. In ESB the wind current wasn't strong enough where Vader was to suck him out. Cin could break the window and then grab onto something while Vader, busing choking Sora and blocking the lightning at the same time (assuming he can block the lightning period) won't have time to grab onto anything and will be sucked out. So what if Sora is, too, Cin's still alive so his team wins. Did I say anything resembling what you said I posted? No, I didn't. So too bad I didn't assume that. In ESB it was that strong and he had to brace himself or suffer the same fate his son did...watch it again. Once the room pressure stabilized, he could again move freely. I never once said that vader could block lightning, so stop trying to put words in my mouth to help your argument. And there's no reason that someone with Vader's intelligence wouldn't release his grip in order to preserve his own life. That's a ridiculous assumption if you're looking for an example of one.



Originally posted by darthsith19
What the hell is wrong with you? This has nothing to do with anything that I said.
Answer the question and then I'll reveal it's relevance.



Originally posted by darthsith19
If Vader could do it so easily, why didn't he simply snap Cin's neck in ROTS? And Bene's, for that matter? Why did he even engage them in a saber duel?
Uh, cause as you said in regards to Maul, maybe he prefers saber duels to simply attacks. Plus, if he were to engage them all and defeat them all in saber dueling, it would certainly boost his ego, which all Sith love to do.


Originally posted by darthsith19
And crushing ten of them tires him so greatly that he is forced to use his lightsaber to kill the last one, he can't even use the Force to get it. And those are just creatures of no skill, I want proof that he can do that to two powerful force users. Wasn't he famished and hurt from a crash or something? A technique is a technique, and a target is a target. You have to prove that they can both block it, individually or separately.



Originally posted by darthsith19
Focusing on killing your enemy. Once Vader is zapped, the choke doesn't matter. There's a 50/50 chance that Vader would crush Sora first, 5/50 Cin. If he crushes Sora first, he might win, but we can't say for sure because we don't know how good Cin is with the Force. But if he crushes Cin first, Sora can zap him quick and win.
If we don't know how good Cin is with the force, how can you confidently sit there and call him a "powerful force user?" don't give me that BM shit, cause that relates to saber skills. vader has a comfortable edge over both of them.


Originally posted by darthsith19
Agreed. But can he do that to Cin, while choking Sora and block the lightning? Doubtful.
Where are you getting all that?


Originally posted by darthsith19
Malak and Vader are close, but anyways, when did Malak Force Choke more than one force user at a time?
Doesn't matter, he's not Vader so what Malak does is irrelevant. But if has the ability, than Vader, his superior would be able too after 20 years of teachings from Sidious.


Originally posted by darthsith19
Oh, but as subjekt says, it is simple TK, and all Jedi know simple TK. If you want a source for that then you had better ask him.

Attention to detail my friend. I never said simple, and using it in that manner would have dark intentions behind it, thus making it less likely that a Jedi would do it.

And in other words, you have no proof to back up your assertion.


Originally posted by darthsith19
What do you want me to post proof of? That Cin can use TK? Tell me what you want proof of and I will tell you. But I don't need to provide proof for something like "Cin can use tk", or anything obvious. That Sora can still use lightning while being choked or crushed, and that both can block choke or crush for starters.

Originally posted by darthsith19



If Vader could do it so easily, why didn't he simply snap Cin's neck in ROTS? And Bene's, for that matter? Why did he even engage them in a saber duel? Zomg if he could do tis why didnt he do that on guy X, Same for sidious, he know force sever technique, did he use it on luke? No he didnt.


Was it necessary darth sith? At that time of ROTS he could barely kill his wife though she was going to die


Originally posted by darthsith19

And crushing ten of them tires him so greatly that he is forced to use his lightsaber to kill the last one, he can't even use the Force to get it. And those are just creatures of no skill, I want proof that he can do that to two powerful force users. Prove that it tires him, oh what because he picks up his lightsaber? Bad analogy, prove that because he picks up his saber, he becomes tied.

Again malak chokes 2 force users on the SF


Originally posted by darthsith19

Focusing on killing your enemy. Once Vader is zapped, the choke doesn't matter.
Once sora is in a crush stance, lightning wont matter
Originally posted by darthsith19

There's a 50/50 chance that Vader would crush Sora first, 5/50 Cin. If he crushes Sora first, he might win, but we can't say for sure because we don't know how good Cin is with the Force. But if he crushes Cin first, Sora can zap him quick and win. Cin and sora are no where near the level of darth vader in the force, get over it anti-vader boy, I read your website, you so biased against vader claiming he is the weakest sith


Originally posted by darthsith19

Agreed. But can he do that to Cin, while choking Sora and block the lightning? Doubtful. He can choke both of them at once or crush them at the same time, I dont have to proof that,

If you can fire a hangdun with one hand you can certeinly do so with another and seeing that, you can use 2 hands to fire, Its simple commen sense darth sith, Vader CAN do it, get over it


Originally posted by darthsith19

Malak and Vader are close, but anyways, when did Malak Force Choke more than one force user at a time? Already answered that. Dont believe ask legend


Originally posted by darthsith19

Oh, but as subjekt says, it is simple TK, and all Jedi know simple TK. If you want a source for that then you had better ask him. And TK alone cant kill you unless you toss your opponent smashing him into debris which vader is quite capable of doing





Originally posted by darthsith19

What do you want me to post proof of? That Cin can use TK? Tell me what you want proof of and I will tell you. But I don't need to provide proof for something like "Cin can use tk", or anything obvious. Breaking someones neck with the force? That could be the force choke technique, one where you actually kill your opponent quickly rather than wait for him to die for lack of oxgen.

Well then you said Cin can use TK, so can vader, on a MUCH greater level


@EDIT

DS, we HAVE seen vader choke a jedi, in purge and that jedi couldnt do shit until he was released from vaders grip

I guess that settles that, Kadesh.

Was it necessary darth sith? At that time of ROTS he could barely kill his wife though she was going to die

^ ill drop this point, he could have easily killed her

Yea he just didn't want to. He got pissed off, choked her, the "good" in him realized what he was doing then he focused on OB1. He could have killed her in seconds.

Thats assuming he wants to kill her quickly, One thing i notice about vader, is that he never attempts to kill his victims quickly with choke. Like ozzels case, vader could have easily snapped his neck but he chose not to, problably he wants ozzel to suffer before he dies

Well I'm sure he didn't want to kill Padme anyways. Its his wife for god's sake. He did let her go and I doubt it was because OB1 told him to.

When does Vader snap someone's neck?

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
When does Vader snap someone's neck? Its not a matter of when, its a matter of "can he do it" which he is quite capable with a force grip

so is this settled then?

As long as idiots dont bump the thread