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Who wins?

1.Force battle
2.Saber battle
3.All out

1. I can't decide
2. Tyranus
3. Probably Tyranus, but it'll be a tough battle either way.

I don't know but I am rooting for Revan!

I think Revan might take 2 out of 3 obviously losing in saber combat but it wont be easy.

1. Most likely Revan.

Revan was strong in the Force and possessed immense knowledge of the Sith Lore.

2. Giving a conclusion in this case is very difficult.

Both Count Dooku and Revan were skilled duelists, but we need to know a little more about Revan' skill with a Light saber.

3. Though Count Dooku will put up some fight, Revan will still win.

Revan was smarter and defeated Darth Malak on the Star Forge. And this is enough to put him above Count Dooku.

Welcome back legend

I think we're all forgetting that AotC Dooku was skilled enough with a saber and powerful enough in the force to keep up with Yoda, who is canonically stronger than light side Revan, who is in turn more powerful than Darth Revan. I think we're underestimating Tyranus here.

No one is underestimating Count Dooku. Despite certain (banned) individuals attempting to discredit the skill and proficiency of the Count of Serenno, Dooku ranks among the most powerful Jedi Masters in the history of the Jedi Order itself, he was regarded as the "the most bitter loss" of the Lost Twenty (to which the Complete Visual Dictionary cites is testament to his strength in the Force), and -- according to the Revenge of the Sith novelization -- an even greater Lord of the Sith. He would certainly prove to be a skilled challenge for Darth Revan.

I think Revan would win but it would be very close. Dooku might win the saber duel.

revan... no this is not fanboyism... revan was a sith lord, Tyrranus was a sith apprentice.

their titles say it all. I dont want to start a debate so I wont be on this thread. noobs.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
revan... no this is not fanboyism... revan was a sith lord, Tyrranus was a sith apprentice.

their titles say it all. I dont want to start a debate so I wont be on this thread. noobs.

Actually I believe both we called sith lords in the rule of two. Furthermore Dooku was the apprentice of one darth sidious who would beat down revan so there is no shame in being an apprentice to him. So Revan may still win but it is not because a title.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
revan... no this is not fanboyism... revan was a sith lord, Tyrranus was a sith apprentice.

their titles say it all. I dont want to start a debate so I wont be on this thread. noobs.

Your logic is extremely faulty. In case you didn't know, when a Sith apprentice is strong enough, he is supposed to challenge his master. Eventually, the Sith apprentice will surpass his master. If not, then he is not worthy of being his apprentice. Therefore, this has nothing to do with it.

Under Darth Bane's Rule of Two, both Sith Lords share the title of "Dark Lord of the Sith" -- the only titular difference is that the reigning Sith also possesses the title of 'Master'.

Superior rank -- especially when comparing two individuals from separate timeframes -- does not necessarily equate to superior skills.

OK,

I imagine this as a 60/40 fight in either direction.

Revan impresses with his Star Forge accomplishments and Dooku in taking on Anakin, Kenobi and Yoda.

I voted for Revan but on second thought I might have to give this to the Lord Count Dooku.

When in doubt it is good practice to bet against the ancients despite the ambiguous pattern of evolution in the Star Wars universe.

Strength in the Force can't evolve or devolve.

Originally posted by Gideon
Strength in the Force can't evolve or devolve.

It is true that I am not familiar with Star Wars biology.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
revan... no this is not fanboyism... revan was a sith lord, Tyrranus was a sith apprentice.

their titles say it all. I dont want to start a debate so I wont be on this thread. noobs.

Another reason why this is flawed: they are from different time frames, they weren't around at the same time. If they were both Sith at the same time and Revan was Tyranus's master, then yes this logic would work. But by this logic Lord Kaan, who is a master, would be able to defeat Darth Vader, who is an apprentice. Which wouldn't happen, btw.

Darth Revan, in a close fight.

Force: Revan
Saber: Really really really close but Revan
Overall: Revan again

He'd win the saber battle because we've established that Dooku would lose to Malak (I think...somewhere although really closely, again) and if Revan can beat Malak we have the following equation:

Revan>Malak>Dooku

Overall, it's Revan, although quite closely. Please don't jump on me for saying Revan would win the saber fight! PLEASE!

Originally posted by caedusrulesall

Overall, it's Revan, although quite closely. Please don't jump on me for saying Revan would win the saber fight! PLEASE!

How can you expect us not to when Revan hasn't shown anything saber wise to take out Anakin "in TeH Zone" Skywalker in a saber duel.



No what people though they established was malak>dooku overall (though i'm sure count makashi would prove that wrong if he posted here and im not sold on it either as im sure others are not) and Malak has shown even less than Revan saber wise so it truly makes me wonder what evidence is out there that puts Malak above Dooku.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
No what people though they established was malak>dooku overall (though i'm sure count makashi would prove that wrong if he posted here and im not sold on it either as im sure others are not) and Malak has shown even less than Revan saber wise so it truly makes me wonder what evidence is out there that puts Malak above Dooku.

The general consensus was that a Darth Malak, empowered by the Star Forge, likely exceeds Count Dooku's natural prowess, and based on evidence alone, a Vjun-empowered Dooku rivals or exceeds even that powerful version of Malak.

As for natural ability, I would like to see justification of Malak's skill.

Originally posted by Gideon
The general consensus was that a Darth Malak, empowered by the Star Forge, likely exceeds Count Dooku's natural prowess, and based on evidence alone, a Vjun-empowered Dooku rivals or exceeds even that powerful version of Malak.


To me it is sort of contradictory. Malak powered by the star forge(dark side object which makes this Malak at his peak of power) maybe greater than a normal dooku. But when Dooku is powered by darkside object (vjun) then this would be arguably be Dooku at his peak. So wouldn't that make Dooku>Malak both of whom at their peaks in power?


Same here.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
To me it is sort of contradictory. Malak powered by the star forge(dark side object which makes this Malak at his peak of power) maybe greater than a normal dooku. But when Dooku is powered by darkside object (vjun) then this would be arguably be Dooku at his peak. So wouldn't that make Dooku>Malak both of whom at their peaks in power?

No.

First, being empowered or having one's power amplified, focus, or directed via a dark side object is not being at the peak of one's power, as the preternatural advantages afforded to these individuals are strictly due to the power of the object. Despite being two very powerful Force-users, there's no indication that either Darth Malak or Count Dooku would be capable of such feats without such aid. Otherwise, we can credit Naga Sadow with being on par with Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious because he orchestrated stellar disasters with the assistance of the focusing mechanisms afforded by his flagship. Because no Ancient Sith demonstrates such powers without the use of Sith technologies and arcana -- or even Sith magic (which requires no effort to use) -- they clearly aren't capable of such feats without them.

Second, the Star Forge might afford more power to the user than Vjun might, or vice versa.

revan... although dooku is supremely skilled, revan is even more skilled, taking the title of "Sith Lord" above all in his era. Dooku was killed easily by an insane psychopath. that says something about either the insane psychopath, or Tyrranus....

Tyrranus--My favorite sith, just because of the actor.. Saruman should have won rots.... but what sux is he didnt.

so i would have to put Revans life higher then a man who was killed by a very skilled pawn of the Jedi.

I am not even going to debate... this is my opinion.

Force fight: Dooku slightly, he seemed well versed in the force and what he did to a powerful Jedi like Obi Wan I don't see Revan being able to replicate.

Saber: This is where Dooku has a huge advantage in my opinion, his saber skills were exceptional.

All out: Dooku, although I would expect Revan to make it quite difficult. In the end I think Dooku defeats him through saber combat as they cancel out each others force attacks.

Originally posted by Allankles
Force fight: Dooku slightly, he seemed well versed in the force and what he did to a powerful Jedi like Obi Wan I don't see Revan being able to replicate.

Saber: This is where Dooku has a huge advantage in my opinion, his saber skills were exceptional.

All out: Dooku, although I would expect Revan to make it quite difficult. In the end I think Dooku defeats him through saber combat as they cancel out each others force attacks.

Force fight and all out fight would undoubtedly go to Revan. He was the most powerful force user of his time, and his knowledge of the darkside was very broad. The only fight Dooku would probably win is a saber duel.

Hang on!!

If what you're saying is true and Malak impowered= Dooku impowered
then logically Revan, who (easily) beat Malak impowered, would trump Yoda who could only draw with Dooku impowered.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Hang on!!

If what you're saying is true and Malak impowered= Dooku impowered
then logically Revan, who (easily) beat Malak impowered, would trump Yoda who could only draw with Dooku impowered.

Except Yoda never attacked Dooku. He always held the defensive and hoped that he could turn Dooku back to the light.

It was still stated that Dooku was almost too powerful and fast for him.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
It was still stated that Dooku was almost too powerful and fast for him.


Oh really? Where?

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
revan... although dooku is supremely skilled, revan is even more skilled, taking the title of "Sith Lord" above all in his era. Dooku was killed easily by an insane psychopath. that says something about either the insane psychopath, or Tyrranus....

Tyrranus--My favorite sith, just because of the actor.. Saruman should have won rots.... but what sux is he didnt.


Taking the title of sith lord in his era doesn't make Revan more powerful than Dooku. Considering the two eras of sith followed different rules.

And Dooku was killed by one of the top duelist ever. So it says something about Anakin's skill not the lack there of in Dooku's.


Originally posted by Darth Exodus
If what you're saying is true and Malak impowered= Dooku impowered
then logically Revan, who (easily) beat Malak impowered, would trump Yoda who could only draw with Dooku impowered.

No one said that Malak empowered by the star forge=Dooku on vjun. Yoda>Revan has been proven. And there is zero proof that Revan easily beat Malak so stop lying Nebaris.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
It was still stated that Dooku was almost too powerful and fast for him.

Bullshit. No such statement was issued. Yoda never went on the offensive during the little debacle on Vjun, and Count Dooku only attacked him when Yoda was distracted, attempting to save a civilian's life, and Dooku retreated. Hell, Dooku knew that he couldn't defeat Yoda, hence the missile parked in orbit.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
It was still stated that Dooku was almost too powerful and fast for him.

Give me a break.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Force fight and all out fight would undoubtedly go to Revan. He was the most powerful force user of his time, and his knowledge of the darkside was very broad. The only fight Dooku would probably win is a saber duel.

I don't doubt Revan's power I doubt whether he would be more powerful than Dooku in the force. Different timelines, versus very little evidence to the affirmative (I.E. that he's more powerful) lead me to doubt placing Revan above Dooku.

If I did it would without evidence IMO. Dooku was great Jedi, who trained in the ways of the force for 80 years and was without doubt one of the greatest practitioners of the force in the Golden era itself, I don't see too much from Revan that puts him above such a Jedi in terms of force power/potential/skill.

Originally posted by Allankles
I don't doubt Revan's power I doubt whether he would be more powerful than Dooku in the force. Different timelines, versus very little evidence to the affirmative (I.E. that he's more powerful) lead me to doubt placing Revan above Dooku.
I guess you forgot Revan plundered Korriban and Malachor V. Dooku stands NO chance in the force.



That's anti Revan rhetoric for you. Very few force users are above Revan. His knowledge was incredibly broad and based on evidence, his force abilities were beyond Dookus.

And his saber skills must've been of a very high level as well... though how high, really, is debatable.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy


That's anti Revan rhetoric for you. Very few force users are above Revan. His knowledge was incredibly broad and based on evidence, his force abilities were beyond Dookus. True, few are above revan, but there are others who rival him in terms of raw power, Bane and vader most likely.

I'd call beating someone between 3 to 7 times in a row easy pwnage. Revan also cut off his jaw which is a surprisingly tricky thing to do and requires great skill.

Trust me

Also, Revan was undefeated in combat despit fighting most of the top fighters of the era. Dooku wasn't.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
I'd call beating someone between 3 to 7 times in a row easy pwnage. Revan also cut off his jaw which is a surprisingly tricky thing to do and requires great skill.

Which could mean that Malak has no saber skill. No one know who cut off Malak's jaw and it is probably not Revan so stop lying loser. There duel on the star forge was not easy for either one of them.



Dooku had faced people that would also beat Revan in saber combat-Yoda,Anakin and Mace. And last I checked these top fighters didn't have the skill level as the one's Dooku faces. Revan's best chance is to eliminate Dooku with the force.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Which could mean that Malak has no saber skill. No one know who cut off Malak's jaw and it is probably not Revan so stop lying loser.

I'd say Malak was not skill-less, but not as powerful as some people might think. And, yeah, what's that bullshit about Revan cutting off Malak's jaw? You just made that up yourself, didn't you, Exodus?



Yes, I agree... but it was probably harder for Revan. Malak was already too corrupted to care, Revan on the other hand, was fighting against his ex-best friend. Although, it probably wasn't the same since he had his memory wipe...




It is, but we just can't take away the possibility of Revan winning in a saber duel. After all, his dark side knowledge was vast.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I guess you forgot Revan plundered Korriban and Malachor V. Dooku stands NO chance in the force.

I don't see how that proves anything. Dooku had 80 years learning the ways of the force and spent over 5 years as apprentice to the greatest Sith master there ever was. Yoda spoke highly of Dooku, and he was a tremendously huge loss to the Jedi.

Unless you can offer definitive proof Revan knew more about the force than an accomplished and very talented 80 year veteran, the caliber of Dooku.



Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That's anti Revan rhetoric for you. Very few force users are above Revan. His knowledge was incredibly broad and based on evidence, his force abilities were beyond Dookus.

I don't see how I suggested that many people are above Revan. But 'few', in the context of millions of Jedi through the ages could be as high as 100 and as low as 5.

I think Dooku would have been Revan's superior in the force if they were in the same era IMO. It's only that Dooku was in the greatest era of Jedi, an era that had force giants like Yoda, Anakin and Palpatine.

Originally posted by Allankles
I don't see how that proves anything. Dooku had 80 years learning the ways of the force and spent over 5 years as apprentice to the greatest Sith master there ever was. Yoda spoke highly of Dooku, and he was a tremendously huge loss to the Jedi.

Unless you can offer definitive proof Revan knew more about the force than an accomplished and very talented 80 year veteran, the caliber of Dooku.
I don't have to prove Revan knew more. Facts show Revan knew more. Revan pillaged ancient sith worlds and had broader knowledge than even Exar Kun. YOU have to prove Dooku was even near Revan in force abilities. Nobody cares how long Dooku trained for. Yoda was 800 years old when he couldn't defeat a 60 year old Sidious. Nobody cares how highly Yoda spoke of Dooku either.




Your opinion holds no water though.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I don't have to prove Revan knew more. Facts show Revan knew more. Revan pillaged ancient sith worlds and had broader knowledge than even Exar Kun.


Yet exar kuns broad knowledge of sith alchemy and sith magic surpasses revan so that pretty much makes them equal.

And the some of the feats performed by kun surpasses that of revan.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I don't have to prove Revan knew more. Facts show Revan knew more. Revan pillaged ancient sith worlds and had broader knowledge than even Exar Kun. YOU have to prove Dooku was even near Revan in force abilities. Nobody cares how long Dooku trained for. Yoda was 800 years old when he couldn't defeat a 60 year old Sidious. Nobody cares how highly Yoda spoke of Dooku either.

So no evidence.

I know the facts. I know Revan pillaged some worlds of their dark side artifacts, but how does that equate to 80 years of studying the force? Are you saying Revan's knowledge was more than the sum total of all the knowledge available to Dooku in his 80 years?

Are you saying Dooku didn't have access to large stores of knowledge in his era (first through the Jedi archives and then through Sidious)? Are you trying to say his 80 yrs of studying in the ways of the force are nothing in comparison to Revan's much fewer years?

Are you trying to see the logic here? Revan pillaged Korriban and Malachor as a Sith and that didn't last very long (he didn't even have half a decade as a Sith Lord under him before getting captured by the Jedi).

EDIT:Lastly, a lot of Revan's stolen artifacts were beyond his possesion once he was captured by the Jedi, meaning he didn't have enough time to learn all there was, unless you think otherwise which would mean that the knowledge he attained wasn't all that much if he was able to learn it in such a short time.

Way too many assumptions on Revan based on unquantifiable info. Dooku take this, via his superiority in sabers.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
YOU have to prove Dooku was even near Revan in force abilities. Nobody cares how long Dooku trained for. Yoda was 800 years old when he couldn't defeat a 60 year old Sidious.


He was stronger in the force than his peers (by how much? we can't tell). He was stronger than Malak while he was aided by the starforge (again unquantifiable given that Malak was weaker in the force). Beyond this what do you know about Revan's force power?

Dooku had enough power to hold his own against two powerful Jedi Knights of the highest caliber in Obi Wan and Anakin. He was even able to overpower the crafty and relatively powerful Obi Wan with TK in the middle of the duel.

He was strong enough to toy with a dangerous Dark Jedi like Asajj Ventress. He was able to hold his own with Yoda even after a tiring battle with Obi Wan and Anakin in AOTC. At least we can gauge Dooku's strength fairly accurately. Revan: just wishful thinking and assumptions.

Palpatine just happens to be one of the force giants I mentioned earlier, he's an exception not the rule.

Originally posted by Allankles
So no evidence.

I know the facts. I know Revan pillaged some worlds of their dark side artifacts, but how does that equate to 80 years of studying the force? Are you saying Revan's knowledge was more than the sum total of all the knowledge available to Dooku in his 80 years?
Yes. Revan had all of the ancient sith artifacts and treasures. Dooku had a few of Sidious' teachings. Your argument of quantity>quality is defeated.


Duh.. Just like Yoda's 800 years weren't nearly enough against Palpatine's 60 years..


Doesn't matter. Revan's skill in the force was unmatched during his time, and the techniques he learned were enough to give Bane a woodie. Dooku doesn't compare..



Except you're not an authority on how long it would take Revan to learn something.

Originally posted by Allankles
Way too many assumptions on Revan based on unquantifiable info. Dooku take this, via his superiority in sabers.

Yea, sadly this is all Dooku is superior to Revan in. Revan takes force+overall battle.

Originally posted by Allankles
He was stronger in the force than his peers (by how much? we can't tell). He was stronger than Malak while he was aided by the starforge (again unquantifiable given that Malak was weaker in the force). Beyond this what do you know about Revan's force power?
Yes..#1 in the KOTOR era.


Except the fact that he used his experience to take down two jedi who weren't that great in the force. Anakin was to become the greatest but not at that current stage. Once he faced a very powerful force user in Yoda, he was nothing.


No



So is Revan.

http://i28.tinypic.com/538idc.jpg

In a word, ah... no.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
http://i28.tinypic.com/538idc.jpg

In a word, ah... no.

It's very tough to judge who:

A. Has more offensive force powers
B. Who has a broader range of force powers
C. Who has achieved more force mastery
D. Etc...


This debate will go around in circles..

Originally posted by Janus Marius
http://i28.tinypic.com/538idc.jpg

In a word, ah... no. So your basically saying exar's knowledge on sith alchemy clearly does not surpass that of revan and perhaps inferior? Why don't you bring it up for debate which is what i am trying to do...

Really? When has revan ever been shown with enough knowledge on sith magic and alchemy to create tarentateks, beasts or stun possibly hunderds and thousands of senators? Thats why i assumed exars knowledge of alchemy and magic > that of revan while vice versa happens when we bring in force knowledge.

You guys are getting off topic.
Revan Plundered the Ancient Sith worlds. Revan Killed a Star Forge fuelled malak, Revan won the Mandalorian War (mandalorians are WAY tougher then clones (maybe not commandos) and droids) Revan Saved the galaxy from a Nigh unstoppable sith threat (the star forge and the vast supply of Malak's Ships)

Secondly; you have no knowledge of how long Tyrranus trained, and you have no knowledge of how long Revan trained. By canon storyline, we can defenitely see alot more training on Revan's part. seriously, he Trained and surpassed the Period Jedi knowledge, fell to the darkside on malachor five during the Mandalorian war, learned and grew in darkside knowledge as he Lead the republic against losing odds to victory against the Mandalorian threat. He was then memory wiped and grew in power again to surpass the capabilities of the period Jedi, Killed all available Sith on the star forge, and killed a star forge fueled Bastilla, and Malak.

Later in the Darth Bane novels, Revan was shown to have invented "the thought bomb"

Count Dooku Didnt train for 80 years, he was a Jedi and then a sith for a combined time of 83 years. He probably only trained during the time he was a jedi, and then picked up battle experience during the clone wars.

One thing I would like to point out is that "years" are a "earth" time unit. a year is the ammount of time it takes the earth to revolve around the sun once...

In the star wars galaxy, there would be different times for this to happen varrying from planet to planet and from system to system, so every single system would have almost 9 different lengths that could be called years....

So before you say "Dooku is the PWNZRZ HE LIVED FOR LIKE 90 YEARS!!!!" realize that this is a major inconsistency and a contradiction in the SW universe....

And as someone said before, 800 years had yoda trained jedi, but unable he was, to defeat maybe a 70 year old palpatine, the dark lord of the sith. This totally screws up any arguement you have as to how long dooku trained having anything to do with this fight...

and no, if I made one minor mistake in my arguement such as the thought bomb was just found on his holocron, not invented by him, you are not allowed to jump on me and call me a noob with horrible debating skills and noobiness beyond your knowledge

First off, QUIT triple posting and use the edit button.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
You guys are getting off topic.
Revan Plundered the Ancient Sith worlds. Revan Killed a Star Forge fuelled malak,
ok
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Revan won the Mandalorian War
With the help of technology.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

(mandalorians are WAY tougher then clones (maybe not commandos) and droids)
I'd love to see you prove it seeing that clones have far superior armor and technology and the very fact that they are much stronger than mandalorian troopers.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Revan Saved the galaxy from a Nigh unstoppable sith threat (the star forge and the vast supply of Malak's Ships) O rly? How i forgot he had the republic and his friends to aid him.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Secondly; you have no knowledge of how long Tyrranus trained, and you have no knowledge of how long Revan trained.
Actually we DO know how long dooku was trained, nearly his entire life of 70 over years including studying under the most powerful sith lord for 10 over years.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

By canon storyline, we can defenitely see alot more training on Revan's part.
Are you THAT stupid? Revans young, dookus old so obviously who had more training? But again so what? I think its clear revan is stronger than dooku in the force.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

seriously, he Trained and surpassed the Period Jedi knowledge, fell to the darkside on malachor five during the Mandalorian war, learned and grew in darkside knowledge as he Lead the republic against losing odds to victory against the Mandalorian threat. He was then memory wiped and grew in power again to surpass the capabilities of the period Jedi, Killed all available Sith on the star forge, and killed a star forge fueled Bastilla, and Malak. Again he never killed bastila, and his duel against malak was no easy one.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Later in the Darth Bane novels, Revan was shown to have invented "the thought bomb"
Don't lie you raging hormone fanboy of revan, revan was never stated to have invented the thought bomb, hell even the fallible wookie states the technique predated him.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

Count Dooku Didnt train for 80 years, he was a Jedi and then a sith for a combined time of 83 years. He probably only trained during the time he was a jedi, and then picked up battle experience during the clone wars. LOL yet you said revan had more training despite revan being younger than dooku.

And who said you only get powerful through battle? Sidious barely fought people yet he was labeled the most powerful sith lord ever and easily dispatched 3 of the greatest swordsman in 25 000 years of the jedi history and went head to head with yoda whom was stated to be the most powerful lightsider surpassing that of revan.

You fail
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

One thing I would like to point out is that "years" are a "earth" time unit. a year is the ammount of time it takes the earth to revolve around the sun once... So? why are you telling something so obvious?
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

In the star wars galaxy, there would be different times for this to happen varrying from planet to planet and from system to system, so every single system would have almost 9 different lengths that could be called years.... I'd love to see you prove it.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

So before you say "Dooku is the PWNZRZ HE LIVED FOR LIKE 90 YEARS!!!!" realize that this is a major inconsistency and a contradiction in the SW universe.... Contradiction to whom? To what? To what source? To what statement?
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

And as someone said before, 800 years had yoda trained jedi, but unable he was, to defeat maybe a 70 year old palpatine, the dark lord of the sith.
I guess you forgot yoda was restricted to the light side of the force whereas the dark side > the light.Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

This totally screws up any arguement you have as to how long dooku trained having anything to do with this fight... Noboies argueing dooku > revan save for allankles.

Seriously, the only thing good you provided is "revan plundered ancient sith worlds". Thats all you need to say, the other things are irrelevant.

Revan knew stuff that even Bane was scared to try. He says that that world destroying was one of the weaker attacks known by Revan.



What you fail to realise is that Revan was a super-genius who almost took over the galaxy in 2 years. Dooku on the other hand had a crappy master plan that equates to : trust Anakin Skywalker.
Face it, He was a Racist, senile moron.

And yes i only guessed the jaw thing but come on!!! Its pretty obvious. Who else has the skill to own Malak so badly in a fight. And it would explain why Malak hates Revan so much and is very Sithly.



100 mandos= an army of clones.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Revan knew stuff that even Bane was scared to try.
Actually it was revan and his predecessors whom were scared to perform certain techniques, this ALONE indicates you have yet to actually read POD or already read it just that you have poor reading skills.Originally posted by Darth Exodus

He says that that world destroying was one of the weaker attacks known by Revan. It was never stated you lying fool, please post up a quote pal to support your ridiculous claims.

You LIE as usual.

Janus, you forgot to mention that Exar Kun learned quite a lot from the sith holocron he possessed according to Jedi vs. Sith. But yea, in terms of broader sith knowledge, Revan has the W.

Yes. Revan had all of the ancient sith artifacts and treasures. Dooku had a few of Sidious' teachings. Your argument of quantity>quality is defeated.

This is unsupported, for one we know that there are plenty of Sith holocrons in the Korriban academy in Kotor 1. We also know that Kreia and the Sith triumvirate as a whole studied at Malachor for just over half a decade. All we know is that Revan plundered Korriban and Malachor acquired a treasure trove of artifacts and must have learned from a good number of these.

We know as much about Revan's overall knowledge as we do about Dooku's. The difference is Dooku had 80 years of study under his belt .


Doesn't matter. Revan's skill in the force was unmatched during his time, and the techniques he learned were enough to give Bane a woodie. Dooku doesn't compare..

Even this is unsupported, apart from beating Malak - who himself wasn't all that impressive - what leads you to believe he was the most skilled?

Duh.. Just like Yoda's 800 years weren't nearly enough against Palpatine's 60 years..

Where's the proof? Revan's knowledge is pure speculation unsupported by any kind of evidence outside of Bane being apparently awed by his knowledge of Sith rituals. How can we determine what would awe a relative initiate like Bane, especially during an era where it seemed Sith knowledge was at an all time low?


Except you're not an authority on how long it would take Revan to learn something.

I didn't say that I was. We've seen Dooku's power on display against powerful opponents, we haven't seen Revan's. So how do you know how Revan's power would affect a Jedi the caliber of Dooku?

Logic dictates that with Dooku's skill with the force coupled with his undoubted power, this fight boils down to sabers where Dooku prevails.

He plundered Korriban before the other sith, he plundered the underground cities of Malachor V. Furthermore, Revan was constantly searching for more force knowledge so it stands that Revan learned all that he could from all of his sources. Not to mention, in his little 1 year tenure as a sith lord, he learned how to create holocrons, but yes lets call it unsupportive assumptions. Riiight..



SO what.. Absence of proof isn't proof of Absence. Considering Dooku didn't have nearly the resources Revan possessed, your point is moot. There is nothing indicating Dooku's equality with Revan in the force.. Nothing..




Nobody cares what you think. Revan and Malak were #1 and #2 in the old republic. Revan was #1. There was nobody better.



Considering Revan's knowledge was more useful than anything on Korriban according to Bane, considering Bane could barely wrap his mind around the techniques Revan taught him, you have no point.





Because nothing suggests Dooku was even in Revan's league in terms of force mastery. Nobody cares if he studied for 80 years. Sidious studied for less and would pwn Dooku. Kun studied for under 3 as a sith, and would pwn DOoku.


Logic dictates that you've been spouting your anti Revan bias for a long time now, without any positive effects.

or


Choose.

No Sexy is right, Revan got the techniques from some source(possibly malachor) of the ancient sith. But during Bane's time Korriban had a lot less unexplored areas so he is still right that Revan knew techniques Bane was scared of.

Suck it, Ivalice!!!

Dooku would certainly lose to Revan in all aspects. After all, his greatest feat is merely standing up to Yoda. Also, Revan actually knew how to win a war instead of simply relying on a Psycho.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Suck it, Ivalice!!! Why don't you make yourself useful and ACTUALLY post the quote?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Dooku would certainly lose to Revan in all aspects. After all, his greatest feat is merely standing up to Yoda.

How can you say "merely standing up to Yoda", as though this accomplishment is nothing worthy? Yoda is the most powerful Jedi ever up to that point, and stalemated Darth friggin' Sidious. Therefore the feet is hugely substantial, considering only 2, maybe 3, other people in the era could do the same.



A Psycho who - in case you missed Episode 3,4,5 and 6 - did win the war.

I don't own the book. Had to read it in the store.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
He plundered Korriban before the other sith, he plundered the underground cities of Malachor V. Furthermore, Revan was constantly searching for more force knowledge so it stands that Revan learned all that he could from all of his sources. Not to mention, in his little 1 year tenure as a sith lord, he learned how to create holocrons, but yes lets call it unsupportive assumptions. Riiight..

I think I already said that. But we see in Kotor 1 and 2 evidence that there was plenty of information in both Korriban and Malachor, information that allowed people like Kreia to drain the force out of three experienced Jedi, hide her force presence in the middle of powerful Jedi etc etc Learning how to create holocrons is proof of nothing?

It doesn't quantify Revan's knowledge anymore than Dooku's knowledge has been quantified. You want to make assumptions about Revan's knowledge, be my guest, just don't try to force it down our throats.

Dooku's knowledge was exemplified by skill and poise born of 80 years of experience.



Originally posted by Darth Sexy
SO what.. Absence of proof isn't proof of Absence. Considering Dooku didn't have nearly the resources Revan possessed, your point is moot. There is nothing indicating Dooku's equality with Revan in the force.. Nothing..

He had the Jedi archives (which we know contained Sith artifacts accessible to Jedi Masters), he had Palpatine who we know collected a great number of Sith artifacts himself. What piece of empirical evidence do you have to say Revan had more resources?




Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Nobody cares what you think. Revan and Malak were #1 and #2 in the old republic. Revan was #1. There was nobody better.

I'm talking about skill, I don't care about power (Malak wasn't even second and Nihilus appeared more powerful than both). I'm asking how do you know he was the most skilled?



Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Considering Revan's knowledge was more useful than anything on Korriban according to Bane, considering Bane could barely wrap his mind around the techniques Revan taught him, you have no point..

You missed the entire point. Bane was not some Sith scholar being awed by great information, he was an initiate, in an era where dark side knowledge was not as abundant as in previous eras.

The point is, if you're trying to make Revan's knowledge seem genuinely vast, Bane is the wrong character to be using to describe the vastness of that knowledge, only because he's an initiate (more or less) and his era seems to be lacking, in dark side knowledge relative to other eras.





Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Because nothing suggests Dooku was even in Revan's league in terms of force mastery. Nobody cares if he studied for 80 years. Sidious studied for less and would pwn Dooku. Kun studied for under 3 as a sith, and would pwn DOoku.

There's no doubt Revan achieved some degree of force mastery but what makes you believe it was even on the level of Dooku's? What has Revan done with the force that Dooku couldn't replicate? Don't mention FS on some Rakata.

Dooku was holding his own against Yoda, after defeating Anakin and Obi Wan in AOTC. We later see him overwhelm Obi Wan with TK in the middle of a fight in ROTS, I mean that kind of display is uncommon, especially against a tough opponent like that.

You honestly believe Revan even holds his own against Anakin and Obi Wan without losing? Malak was Revan's rival. The likes of Dooku, Anakin, Obi Wan, Yoda are a different kettle of fish.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Logic dictates that you've been spouting your anti Revan bias for a long time now, without any positive effects.

Now, no need to get testy. I'm looking for evidence that Revan beats Dooku in a one on one fight, and I can't find any.

No force feats, no definitive combat feats for us to gauge his level compared to Dooku. I have huge doubts that Revan's FP would scare or overwhelm Dooku, seeing as he had the capacity to hold is own against Yoda.

Uh of course it quantifies Revan's knowledge which clearly exceeds Dooku's. Now you're just arguing out of ignorance. There's nothing indicating Dooku's superiority or even equality to Revan in force abilities. So the burden of proof is on you to prove Dooku was anywhere within Revan's rage in the force..


You keep saying it doesn't make it so. Once again, Dooku's 80 years couldn't defeat Anakin, Yoda's 800 years couldn't defeat Sidious.






Revan had all of korriban and all of Malachor V. Dooku had Sidious who CHOSE what he wanted to reveal to him just as he CHOSE to reveal what he wanted Maul to know. Revan's overall force knowledge is on par with the greatest force users of all time. Dooku's isn't.



Nihilus had 1 great power. Revan had more force knowledge. Revan and Malak were #1 and #2 in their era.






Oh ok so let's diminish Revan's accomplishments because Bane's era wasn't the most force strong. The point remains, Revan's force knowledge was beyond Dooku's so it's up to you to prove otherwise.


In terms of vast force knowledge I can only think of 3 characters that are above him in this category. Sidious, Luke, and Jacen.




The question is what makes you believe DOOKU was even in Revan's league in force abilities? Again, Revan plundered korriban AND Malachor V where Traya and Nihilus learned their drains. Revan was strong enough to withstand the dark side on Malachor where Traya was not. Nothing indicates Dooku's equality to Revan in the force.


If by holding his own you mean Yoda was defending himself against Dooku because he didn't want to kill him, you are correct.

Y
In the force, only Yoda is more powerful than Revan at this point, (besides Sidious). In saber combat, he was #1 but his saber skills are relatively unknown so I wouldn't say he defeats Dooku here.




Of course not. Ignorance is bliss to the anti Revan fan club. I don't see any evidence for Dooku being remotely close to Revan in force abilities.

Well, using the Star Forge would probably require some skill. It needs a powerfull force-user to work and creates ships out of the raw elements of a sun. Thats...... tough to say the least.

Theres nothing to even surgest that Dooku had extensive Force knowledge. He only ever uses TK and lightning. When Dooku knows techniques that can destroy whole worlds then I might start to respect him, but not before.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus


Theres nothing to even surgest that Dooku had extensive Force knowledge. He only ever uses TK and lightning. When Dooku knows techniques that can destroy whole worlds then I might start to respect him, but not before. Your constant stupidity surpasses most of the shit i had seen.

I guess it does not occur to you that dooku had 80 years of force knowledge aka access to the entire jedi archives and the fact that he has been stated to be one of the most powerful jedi ever and an even greater sith lord.

You seem to forget the fact that he himself studied under the most powerful sith lord ever for 13 years which would mean he had plenty of dark side knowledge.

You too seem to forget that he could fight yoda toe to toe whom was stated to be the most powerful jedi up until that time.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Your constant stupidity surpasses most of the shit i had seen.

I guess it does not occur to you that dooku had 80 years of force knowledge aka access to the entire jedi archives and the fact that he has been stated to be one of the most powerful jedi ever and an even greater sith lord.

You seem to forget the fact that he himself studied under the most powerful sith lord ever for 13 years which would mean he had plenty of dark side knowledge.

You too seem to forget that he could fight yoda toe to toe whom was stated to be the most powerful jedi up until that time.

You seem to forget that even in his young age, Revan's force mastery surpasses Dooku's. Exar Kun was in his mid 20s and he surpassed Dooku. Dooku could have 800 years of studying and it wouldn't be enough to defeat someone like Sidious because there are more powerful force users than him. He studied under Sidious but Sidious would HARDLY give him everything he knew, especially when he knew Dooku would be replaced.

Wasn't most of the sith knowledge that revan studied and learned destroyed at malachor IV. If sion, traya, and nihilus all learned their force drains from the limited (compared to what it was before) stores of knowledge at the academy, how much more powerfull and vast would the rest of the stores on Malachor IV be?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You seem to forget that even in his young age, Revan's force mastery surpasses Dooku's. Exar Kun was in his mid 20s and he surpassed Dooku. Dooku could have 800 years of studying and it wouldn't be enough to defeat someone like Sidious because there are more powerful force users than him. He studied under Sidious but Sidious would HARDLY give him everything he knew, especially when he knew Dooku would be replaced.

Dooku was replaced by the chosen one himself, I don't see how that's much of a knock on Dooku. If he was replaced by Quinlan Vos (great character) then I might see your point. The point is with Revan the numbers don't add up, the evidence is non - existant, so it all boils down to assumptions.

If Dooku wasn't unfortunate to have been in the same era as the chosen one, and force giants like Yoda and Sidious, he would be the top force user in that era.

Dooku's power and skill was exemplified quite clearly throughout the clone wars. Revan? There just isn't any evidence he would even be able to replicate what Dooku did, given the same circumstance or opponents.

Malak wasn't even second in the whole era (certainly he was from the perspective of Kotor 1 and with the likes of Bastila, Uthar and Bandon as peers you'd expect that) but in the persons of Traya and Nihilus we see more impressive Sith Lords.

Dooku's power has been demonstrated to us, Revan's has not (at least not near enough the same degree for us to assume he automatically takes Dooku).

I would expect it to be close, but Dooku beats him all-out via sabers.

All of which gave him shit in his duels. If you can't produce any evidence of him doing anything special with the force (destroying planets, mind-raping billions etc) then you have no argument.


And you seem to forget that Dooku was never the real apprentice.
Plus Vader studied under Sidious for 19 years and he never does any feats of skill except for Force crush and he did that instinctively. TK does not count as skill, but as power


Dooku was powerful and might be in the top 20 Jedi/Sith.
Revan, on the other hand, is in the top 10. Easily.


Revan surpassed Traya



What a funny joke!!!! But allow me too spell it out for anyone who didn't get it. It's funny becuase it is so ridiculous. Revan would have easily won the clone wars and would have had the sense to dispose of Sidious early ( by tipping off the jedi across the street).
You cad!! You poor comedian!!!

Originally posted by Allankles
Dooku was replaced by the chosen one himself, I don't see how that's much of a knock on Dooku. If he was replaced by Quinlan Vos (great character) then I might see your point. The point is with Revan the numbers don't add up, the evidence is non - existant, so it all boils down to assumptions.
Of course his numbers add up. He had a knowledge of dark side abilities that easily surpass those of Dooku, whose power was force lightning. Sorry but Dooku's force abilities just don't add up to Revans/


You saying this nonsense doesn't make it so.


You mean throw sith lightning? LOL. Revan taught Bane a large amount of ancient sith techniques. It is unlikely Dooku even knew ONE of them. Sorry, Dooku loses in the force department.


If by impressive you mean 1 ability and a weakness to negate that ability, sure.


In force? Revan would absolutely take it. In saber combat, Dooku would take it. In an all out fight? Revan is the superior tactician and the more powerful force user, so he wins.

Another thing that might limit Dooku's sith training is the fact that his master is the supreme chancellor of the republic. Sidious doesn't have the same amount of time to train Dooku,who he himself might face a tough time if he is seen with Sidious in secret or even in the general public being that he was in exile. Plus Dooku was busy laying in the ground works for the CIS and the upcoming clone wars.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Of course his numbers add up. He had a knowledge of dark side abilities that easily surpass those of Dooku, whose power was force lightning. Sorry but Dooku's force abilities just don't add up to Revans/


Oh really? So the stuff a person is shown using is now equal to the stuff the same person knows? Great idea, kid. But in this case, Revan would be limited to force lightning only either. Since that's the only force power he did use canonically. Oh well. Can it be that Dooku actually had access to more Dark Side techniques than just force lightning?

Especially if we look at that here (Dark Rendevouz):
Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain.
"Please," she said. "Don't."
"It doesn't feel very good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest."
Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor.
"It's the blood vessels I hate," Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside, like balloons about to pop."


Oh well. What's that? A force technique that stretches (and at the end destroys) your blood vessels? Sounds pretty badass. Especially considering that Dooku uses it against Asajj Ventress (a good match for post-AotC Anakin). That aside from his ability to deflect force lightning with his bare hands (only done by Yoda and Sidious aside of him), force choke people like Obi-Wan Kenobi and other nice TK actions (AotC force duel with Yoda, later fights as well)



Ah. Yes.
"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student!" (Yoda on Dooku in Dark Rendevouz)

Apparently Dooku is one of the greatest force users in his own era. Yoda puts him over all Jedi when it comes to force mastery (and he does own people like Tholme, Sora Bulq, Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ventress with force attacks rather easily) meaning that - if you reduce it to actual force mastery - Dooku is number 3 in his own era. Just behind Yoda and Sidious (so the most powerful Jedi and the most powerful Sith in history until that point in time). Yup. Sounds as if the guy does really suck.



Wow. And now the amount of force techniques you know is the deciding factor in a battle. Really. What Revan taught Bane through the holocron were ancient Sith rituals (among them the one Bane used to channel the powers of the BoD and the thought bomb). So what? None of that is useable in a force fight.

Yet you also don't know what Sidious did teach Dooku (and apparently he had to teach Dooku some nice stuff - to lure the guy with 7 decades of Jedi training over to the Dark Side). Not to mention that Dooku not only studied the holocron of Darth Andeddu but also studied another Sith holocron when he was a young man (the same he stole out of the Jedi Temple on coruscant).

So even if Sidious didn't teach Dooku more than force lightning, Darth Tyranus did have other sources to learn Sith teachings from and had them long before he med Sidious.



Well. Do you think Malak could defeat the likes of Nihilus or Traya? I seriously doubt that.



Oh. Revan is a superior tactician in comparison to the guy that talked several powerful organisations and thousands of star-systems into joining the CIS? And Revan is also more powerful than the guy that Yoda considered to be the second most powerful Jedi in the PT era (behind himself) who was "even more powerful as a Sith Lord"? A guy that studied the ways of the Jedi for seven decades, a guy that studied the ways of the Sith for more than one decade and had access to at least 2 Sith holocrons (one even when he was a young man) - aside from whatever Sidious gave him.



Yeah. Right. And Revan wasn't busy leading two full-scale wars (Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War)? That aside from the fact that Dooku didn't appear in the public between 33 and 24 BBY, meaning that are 9 years in which he did pretty much nothing except learning Sith teachings - quite more time than Revan had to do the same, eh?

Nai, I can agree with most of that, except for the notion that Count Dooku is a tactition on par with Darth Revan. There is no basis for that conclusion, since Dooku left the militaristic needs of the war to individuals such as General Grievous and Sev'rance Tann. As a political strategist, you'd have a decent argument. But militarily? Dooku just does not compare.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Right. And Revan wasn't busy leading two full-scale wars (Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War)? That aside from the fact that Dooku didn't appear in the public between 33 and 24 BBY, meaning that are 9 years in which he did pretty much nothing except learning Sith teachings - quite more time than Revan had to do the same, eh?

Never said it didn't. What I did say was that it was hard for Sidious and Dooku to train together to Sidious's occupation as the supreme chancellor. And it would be unwise for the two to be seen together in public because it might have raised some questions from the jedi

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh really? So the stuff a person is shown using is now equal to the stuff the same person knows? Great idea, kid. But in this case, Revan would be limited to force lightning only either. Since that's the only force power he did use canonically. Oh well. Can it be that Dooku actually had access to more Dark Side techniques than just force lightning?
IT doesn't matter what he used, and it was a miniature force storm. It matters that his knowledge was extremely broad, including knowledge of Korriban and Malachor V. Before you ask me to substantiate this, let me remind you that according to Bane, Revan had an extended knowledge of ancient sith techniques. Dooku is limited to what, force lightning that was blocked by Obiwan's saber?


So because he was able to subdue Ventress, he is on par with the most powerful force user of the KOTOR time? In that case Revan blows Dooku out of the water because his miniature force storm can kill multiple users around him, nevermind whatever else he had in that holocron.




Nobody said he sucks, but that isn't enough to put him on par with Revan.



Revan had the knowledge of the underground cities of MAlachor V, same place where Traya, Sion and Niihilus learned the force drain. Revan had extended knowledge of korriban before it was plundered.


I don't have to know what Sidious taught Dooku, because there isn't any evidence of him teaching Dooku certain abilities other than force lightning. If you are going to claim Sidious taught Dooku various techniques, prove up. Not to mention that according to Jedi vs. Sith, it didn't take Sidious much to convince Dooku to join the darkside, especially since Dooku had a fascination with sith holocrons. Not to mention you have no proof of him studying the holocron him and Lorian Nod stole.


This would be acceptable if we knew anything about Darth Andeddu.




Probably not because they have their patented force drains.. But one could argue that if Traya didn't have a force bond with the exile, she wouldn't be able to do what she did, otherwise she could have taken care of Sion just as easily. I would give overall force mastery to Malak though, especially star forge powered Malak



quote]Oh. Revan is a superior tactician in comparison to the guy that talked several powerful organisations and thousands of star-systems into joining the CIS? And Revan is also more powerful than the guy that Yoda considered to be the second most powerful Jedi in the PT era (behind himself) who was "even more powerful as a Sith Lord"? A guy that studied the ways of the Jedi for seven decades, a guy that studied the ways of the Sith for more than one decade and had access to at least 2 Sith holocrons (one even when he was a young man) - aside from whatever Sidious gave him.
As escape said, there is nothing that proves Dooku is even on the same level as Revan in this regard.




I'm glad you know what he did those 9 years... Oh wait, assumptions for dummies. I could say that he spent those 9 years on his home planet of Serenno doing what philanthropists do..

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh really? So the stuff a person is shown using is now equal to the stuff the same person knows? Great idea, kid. But in this case, Revan would be limited to force lightning only either. Since that's the only force power he did use canonically.
The KOTOR game alone reveals Revan doing following:

1) Revan force choked a Republic Officer to death in just 2 seconds in his flag-ship. (This was shown in a cutscene.)
2) Revan used a powerful variant of Force Lightning on the Rakatan scouting parties to kill them quickly.
3) Revan also ripped through the minds of the Rakatans and forced basic in to their skulls, so that he would be able to understand their conversations. Now what should we call this technique? Force Mind Ripping

So we have 3 of Revan' abilities to talk about from just one source. So how can you conclude that Revan would also be limited to just one ability in any case?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Wow. And now the amount of force techniques you know is the deciding factor in a battle. Really. What Revan taught Bane through the holocron were ancient Sith rituals (among them the one Bane used to channel the powers of the BoD and the thought bomb). So what? None of that is useable in a force fight.
So just because the Thought Bomb is not useable in a force fight, it means that many other techniques that Revan knew aren't as well? Nice conclusion!

You forgot to note that Revan possessed the ability to use the famed Force Lightning Storm by just himself and without any aid. And he knew lot more than these two powers.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yet you also don't know what Sidious did teach Dooku (and apparently he had to teach Dooku some nice stuff - to lure the guy with 7 decades of Jedi training over to the Dark Side). Not to mention that Dooku not only studied the holocron of Darth Andeddu but also studied another Sith holocron when he was a young man (the same he stole out of the Jedi Temple on coruscant).
And Revan plundered the entire worlds filled with vast amounts of Sith Lore.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh. Revan is a superior tactician in comparison to the guy that talked several powerful organisations and thousands of star-systems into joining the CIS?
Now let us look at what Revan did!

1) He easily managed to become the leader of the Republic fleets through his talent and skills and also managed to lure many Jedi to his cause, even when the Jedi Council forbade all the Jedi to participate in the war and than through his clever tactics, turned the tide of the war in the Republic's favor, when it seemed to loose against the Mandalorians. And such was the extent of Revan' leadership skills that the results spoke for themselves; The enemy (that had the upper-hand previously) was not just defeated, but it was nearly wiped out.

2) And things did not stopped just there, as Revan wanted more. He was trying to set his greater plans in to motion through a very careful strategic planning. He understood in advance that to accomplish his greater plans, he needs to do more than just destroying the enemy. He also decided to eliminate those who might question his authority or ambitions in the near future and time was short. Hence, he secretly planned to eliminate the armies of the Republic (whose loyality to him was questionable) along with the major enemy. The battle of Malachor V serves as a good example of this accomplishment. In short words, he planned and managed to eliminate two major threats with a single stroke. Brilliant! Isn't it?

3) Now what were the greater plans of Revan? He decided to do that few Sith Lords attempted to accomplish in the SW mythos - To conquer the Republic. And at the same time, prepare to battle against the True Sith faction. Now to accomplish his greater plans, he managed to convert thousands of the Jedi loyal to him in to the Sith and the Dark Jedi (unlike using the Order 66 type tactic) and initiated a double-edged sword type strategy to deal with both the threats of the Jedi Council and the Republic itself. Against the Jedi Council, he started a "shadow war" to cripple them from behind the scenes (source: The Chronicles) and against the forces loyal only to the Republic, he unleashed his nearly unstoppable armies and carried out the invasion process with brutal efficiency. Now it was the betrayal that actually stopped him or else Revan would have succeeded in his ambitions just like Sidious.

4) And Revan also understood the importance of forming an alliance with the powerful organizations spanning accross the galaxy and guess what? He managed to convince several powerful organizations to join him and support him financially in his efforts against the Republic. The famous Czerka Corporation was also among them.

5) Revan also knew how to keep his plans as top secret. His enemies never knew what was going to happen to them above the Malachor V. Heck, not even many generals serving Revan knew about what Revan had planned to do with his enemies.

Thus! In several ways, he mimics Darth Sidious. So now who is more impressive tactican?

Originally posted by Borbarad
And Revan is also more powerful than the guy that Yoda considered to be the second most powerful Jedi in the PT era (behind himself) who was "even more powerful as a Sith Lord"? A guy that studied the ways of the Jedi for seven decades, a guy that studied the ways of the Sith for more than one decade and had access to at least 2 Sith holocrons (one even when he was a young man) - aside from whatever Sidious gave him.
Yes! Revan is more powerful than Count Dooku.

Revan was so wise, knowledgeable and powerful that he impressed several Sith Lords including Ajunta Pall, Darth Malak, Darth Traya and Darth Bane.

And I am willing to bet that even Count Dooku will be impressed by him.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Right. And Revan wasn't busy leading two full-scale wars (Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War)? That aside from the fact that Dooku didn't appear in the public between 33 and 24 BBY, meaning that are 9 years in which he did pretty much nothing except learning Sith teachings - quite more time than Revan had to do the same, eh?
Who said that Revan did not got the time to study Sith Lore?

A) He got the time to visit the world of Malachor V and plunder its treaures.
B) He got the time to visit the world of Korriban and plunder its treasures.
C) He got the time to visit Lehon and learn its secrets.
D) He got the time to find and locate an ancient super-weapon called the "Star Forge."

Sidious suceeded. Revan did not. It is very hard to suggest that the two were somehow on par.

That said, where've ya been, Lejj?

Originally posted by Gideon
Sidious suceeded. Revan did not. It is very hard to suggest that the two were somehow on par.

That said, where've ya been, Lejj?
Do you have to repeat these lines in every case? Did I said that Revan was fully on par with Sidious?

My actual point is that Revan does mimics Darth Sidious in several cases and I have proved it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do you have to repeat these lines in every case? Did I said that Revan was fully on par with Sidious?

My actual point is that Revan does mimics Darth Sidious in several cases and I have proved it.

Easy, killer. No need to get hostile because of your embittered past. That Darth Revan "mimics" Darth Sidious (which really isn't apparent) doesn't conclude, suggest, or insinuate that he is better than Dooku.

Originally posted by Gideon
Easy, killer. No need to get hostile because of your embittered past. That Darth Revan "mimics" Darth Sidious (which really isn't apparent) doesn't conclude, suggest, or insinuate that he is better than Dooku.
Now wait a minute! Who is getting defensive over here? Is it me or you?

You think that Sidious is far above every Sith Lord from each and every perspective and aspect, but this is your perception.

No one is comparing Sidious with Revan over here. No one is suggesting that Revan is somehow over-all on par with Sidious but it is indeed true that Revan does compares with Sidious in some aspects and I have described a few.

So better stop this Sidious-humping for once in a debate! OK!

My original point is that Revan is superior tactican than Dooku and I have proved it.

Also you seem to forget that at one point, even your beloved Sidious was going to get it during a confrontation with the Jedi but thanks to that idiot Anakin Skywalker, his sorry @ss was saved.

However, this does not means Sidious was not good.

But when Revan was confronted by the Jedi, his apprentice actually turned against him. Now this does not means that Revan was not capable of conquering the Republic. He was indeed that damn good and prepared but he was not that lucky.

Well, I'm sure we could host a poll, but I'm fairly certain that you'd get all the votes. After all, you're the one who is using imperatives and exclamation points and jumping to conclusions about "Sidious humping" (very nasty) even though I did not make an argument regarding Sidious or attack you for comparing Revan to him. I simply said that comparing the two is not a logical basis for the predisposition that Count Dooku is inferior to Revan; which is something that I haven't disagreed with (twice I've noted that Revan is Dooku's clear superior in all but strict lightsaber ability and that one cannot compare Dooku to Revan as a tactition). So, there's no factual basis for claiming that I'm getting defensive, as I seem to be the only calm and objective person in this discussion.



I'm not looking to make this into a discussion about Sidious, Legend, though I will compliment you for your efforts in doing so. Sidious is "far above" most Sith Lords and just "above" all of them. This isn't so much perception as it is fact, though.



Well, this speaks for itself.



I'm not the one who is making an embittered passage on a thread about Sidious that has nothing to do with him.



I'll refrain from submitting you to a virtual torture session of barbs and sarcasm and point out that I disagreed with Nai on this very same point before you and also point out that you're deviating from your course, sport.



No one indicated, implied, stated, suggested, or insinuated that he was infallible. Certainly not on this thread. It was simply pointed out that the suggestion (without proof, I might add) that Revan somehow mimics Sidious indicates that he's superior to Dooku is not logical.

How are things at home, Lejj? You seem to be even more frayed and spastic.



Of course not. Anyone tell you that you're like a walking argument? You seem to be keen on arguing both sides.



No one suggested that Revan wasn't capable of conquering the Republic. But he failed. Like Sidious, at Endor, he failed to forsee the betrayal of his apprentice. There are two differences, however, the first being that Palpatine had already ruled the galaxy for two decades and the second being that Vader's betrayal was born due to love for his son, whereas Malak's betrayal was classical ambition, which Revan should have reasonably prepared for.

Might want to get back on topic, sport.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Of course his numbers add up. He had a knowledge of dark side abilities

How come we can assume he had more knowledge than Dooku based on the irrelevant musings of Bane, when Dooku has been SHOWN (in detail) to be a consumate Sith Lord and Jedi Master?



Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You saying this nonsense doesn't make it so.

How are you able to say this when all we know about Revan's force mastery is that he knew ancient Sith rituals, which count for nothing in combat (which is what we're discussing)? In terms of combat effective uses of the Jedi/Sith arts, Dooku has Revan beat.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You mean throw sith lightning? LOL. Revan taught Bane a large amount of ancient sith techniques. It is unlikely Dooku even knew ONE of them. Sorry, Dooku loses in the force department. .

Such as? Don't tell me thought bomb, because we all know a thought bomb requires the participation of others. Give us a run down of this awesome knowledge that Revan gave to Bane.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy
If by impressive you mean 1 ability and a weakness to negate that ability, sure.

So you don't think Dooku's ability to fend of multiple dangerous foes is impressive? Or his ability to stand up to Yoda even though Yoda has him beat in FP? Are you telling me Revan would be a bigger threat than ROTS Anakin and ObiWan (together), as well AOTC Yoda?

Really, Dooku is the superior duelist and would win in an all out battle. And if Revan has any superiority in FP it's minimal (minimal enough to be negated by Dooku's equally impressive FP).

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
In an all out fight? Revan is the superior tactician and the more powerful force user, so he wins.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, no way is Revan outhinking Dooku in a duel. Dooku's great ability in combat is not merely dependant on his skills but also on his ability to outsmart/outfox his opponents. No way would Revan outhtink this guy in a duel. Perhaps in a battlefield where they'd be controlling armies, but not in one-on-one combat.

EDIT: And please for the sake of sanity, give us the evidence of Revan's knowledge on combat effective force techniques, not forum consensus.

Originally posted by Allankles
How come we can assume he had more knowledge than Dooku based on the irrelevant musings of Bane, when Dooku has been SHOWN (in detail) to be a consumate Sith Lord and Jedi Master?
Since when did Bane' opinion about Revan became irrelevant? You seem to forget that Bane is considered to be among the most famous and successful Sith Lords in SW Saga and his opinions do hold merit.

He respects Revan a lot and his opinion about him makes it clear that Revan possessed immense knowledge of the Sith Lore.

It has been indicated even in The Chronicles that Revan wielded tremendous dark side power.

And check this quote from The Chronicles as well: "Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, DARTH REVAN has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side."

Revan also discovered the location of the Korriban and visited that planet to learn more.

And do you remember what Yoda said to Dooku in Geonosis? He said this: "Much to learn, you still have."

So now you still think that Dooku possessed more knowledge than Revan did?

Originally posted by Allankles
How are you able to say this when all we know about Revan's force mastery is that he knew ancient Sith rituals, which count for nothing in combat (which is what we're discussing)? In terms of combat effective uses of the Jedi/Sith arts, Dooku has Revan beat.
How can you say that Revan only knew some Sith Rituals?

From just the KOTOR game alone, we came to know that Revan demonstrated exceptional proficiency in using TK, Force Choke, Force Lightning, Force Lightning Storm and the Force Mind Ripping technique.

Now also add Malak in to the equation, since he was once Revan' apprentice and you can attribute more techniques to Revan including the capability to generate and use: Death Field, Stasis Field and Force Whirlwind in combat.

And it is clearly evident from the canon sources: A) Darth Bane: POD and B) The Chronicles that Revan' knowledge of the Sith Lore was indeed very vast.

Originally posted by Allankles
Such as? Don't tell me thought bomb, because we all know a thought bomb requires the participation of others. Give us a run down of this awesome knowledge that Revan gave to Bane.
What about the famed Force Lightning Storm? And not to forget that Revan did possessed the capability to use this technique in combat by himself.

And Bane also pointed out that some techniques that Revan knew were too dangerous to try.

Originally posted by Allankles
So you don't think Dooku's ability to fend of multiple dangerous foes is impressive? Or his ability to stand up to Yoda even though Yoda has him beat in FP? Are you telling me Revan would be a bigger threat than ROTS Anakin and ObiWan (together), as well AOTC Yoda?
And you don't think that Revan' ability to fend of attacks from large number of Battle Droids, Dark Jedi and heavily armed Sith Troopers in the Star Forge is impressive? And you forget to note that the Sith Lords stationed on the Star Forge were also unable to overcome him, even when their powers were boosted by the Star Forge itself.

Also! Do you think that Anakin Skywalker was more formidable than AOTC Yoda? And yet he was able to subdue Count Dooku during his second encounter with him.

Revan will be indeed a bigger threat to him than Anakin Skywalker.

Originally posted by Allankles
Really, Dooku is the superior duelist and would win in an all out battle. And if Revan has any superiority in FP it's minimal (minimal enough to be negated by Dooku's equally impressive FP).
Your conclusion is wrong. Revan is clearly the superior warrior in this case and he will win in an all out battle. And Revan' superiority over Dooku in terms of FP is well established by following:

A) Considering the opinions of several Sith Lords who were impressed by his power including: Ajunta Pall, Darth Malak, Darth Traya and Darth Bane.
B) Statements from The Chronicles.

Originally posted by Allankles
I've said this before and I'll say it again, no way is Revan outhinking Dooku in a duel. Dooku's great ability in combat is not merely dependant on his skills but also on his ability to outsmart/outfox his opponents. No way would Revan outhtink this guy in a duel. Perhaps in a battlefield where they'd be controlling armies, but not in one-on-one combat.
I have proved this before and I will say it again that Revan is smarter than Count Dooku. The 5 points that I have mentioned in one of my previous posts in this thread make this case very clear.

And you seem to forget that Revan was also a very clever and smart fighter. He could overcome difficult challenges even without using the Force, as evident from his exploits in Taris and this also impressed Bastilla Shan.

And with the Force, he stopped the nearly unstoppable.

Originally posted by Allankles
EDIT: And please for the sake of sanity, give us the evidence of Revan's knowledge on combat effective force techniques, not forum consensus.
Check above.

Well, since you say so...

Bare in mind that Revan was declared a Prodigal Knight at the end of Star Wars source Knights of the Old Republic! So he does indeed mimics Darth Sidious.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Since when did Bane' opinion about Revan became irrelevant? You seem to forget that Bane is considered to be among the most famous and successful Sith Lords in SW Saga and his opinions do hold merit.

He respects Revan a lot and his opinion about him makes it clear that Revan possessed immense knowledge of the Sith Lore.

It has been indicated even in The Chronicles that Revan wielded tremendous dark side power.

And check this quote from The Chronicles as well: "Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, DARTH REVAN has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side."

Revan also discovered the location of the Korriban and visited that planet to learn more.

And do you remember what Yoda said to Dooku in Geonosis? He said this: "Much to learn, you still have."

So now you still think that Dooku possessed more knowledge than Revan did?


How can you say that Revan only knew some Sith Rituals?

From just the KOTOR game alone, we came to know that Revan demonstrated exceptional proficiency in using TK, Force Choke, Force Lightning, Force Lightning Storm and the Force Mind Ripping technique.

Now also add Malak in to the equation, since he was once Revan' apprentice and you can attribute more techniques to Revan including the capability to generate and use: Death Field, Stasis Field and Force Whirlwind in combat.

And it is clearly evident from the canon sources: A) Darth Bane: POD and B) The Chronicles that Revan' knowledge of the Sith Lore was indeed very vast.


What about the famed Force Lightning Storm? And not to forget that Revan did possessed the capability to use this technique in combat by himself.

And Bane also pointed out that some techniques that Revan knew were too dangerous to try.


And you don't think that Revan' ability to fend of attacks from large number of Battle Droids, Dark Jedi and heavily armed Sith Troopers in the Star Forge is impressive? And you forget to note that the Sith Lords stationed on the Star Forge were also unable to overcome him, even when their powers were boosted by the Star Forge itself.

Also! Do you think that Anakin Skywalker was more formidable than AOTC Yoda? And yet he was able to subdue Count Dooku during his second encounter with him.

Revan will be indeed a bigger threat to him than Anakin Skywalker.


Your conclusion is wrong. Revan is clearly the superior warrior in this case and he will win in an all out battle. And Revan' superiority over Dooku in terms of FP is well established by following:

A) Considering the opinions of several Sith Lords who were impressed by his power including: Ajunta Pall, Darth Malak, Darth Traya and Darth Bane.
B) Statements from The Chronicles.


I have proved this before and I will say it again that Revan is smarter than Count Dooku. The 5 points that I have mentioned in one of my previous posts in this thread make this case very clear.

And you seem to forget that Revan was also a very clever and smart fighter. He could overcome difficult challenges even without using the Force, as evident from his exploits in Taris and this also impressed Bastilla Shan.

And with the Force, he stopped the nearly unstoppable.


Check above. You do know revan loses a strict saber duel right? Whereas he wins the others(force all out).

Originally posted by 666.3
Bare in mind that Revan was declared a Prodigal Knight at the end of Star Wars source Knights of the Old Republic! So he does indeed mimics Darth Sidious.

You know, for a second, I was beginning to think you'd caught Lejj's disease... we have vaccines for that shit.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
IT doesn't matter what he used, and it was a miniature force storm.


Nope. It was the "force storm" technique from the KotoR games which is just an upgrade of force lightning in the matter of sense that the lightning is directed upwards and then hits multiple targets around the Dark Sider using it. Which wouldn't be effective against a single opponent - even less against a single opponent who has shown the ability to defend himself against force lightning.



Whoopie. I could say that Dooku's knowledge was also broad because he did study the force for 7 decades as a Jedi and another decade as a Sith Lord. Yoda even says that Dooku is the student of the Jedi Temple that is "most learned in the ways of the force" putting him straight over any other Jedi in the PT era with the exception of Yoda himself.

And sorry. Dooku, aside of force lightning, has also demonstrated abilities like force grip (against Obi-Wan in RotS), an unknown technique which he used to force Ventress down rather easily (stretching her blood vessels in a manner they were about to "pop like baloons". Aside of that he demonstrated vast telikinetic abilities, is a master of Qey'Tek and can push his physical abilities to an extend that allows him to challenge much younger Jedi even in 2vs1 situations.

And please. If you want to limit it to real displays of power than Revan is limited to force choke and lightning (up to the "force storm" version). That aside from the fact that you've still not proven that any of the supposed uber Sith abilities Revan has knowledge about is useable in combat situations (since neither him nor Bane is actually using anything special in combat).



You know that there is a difference between a force user being attacked with the force and some being that doesn't have abilities like that? Right. Force users are capable of withstanding or countering force attacks. Yet Dooku trashes rather many people with his offensive force abilities (Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ventress, Tholme, Sora Bulq, Quinlan Vos - just to name some) without much difficulty.



Putting somebody on par with Revan means putting somebody on par with a relative unknown. Sure. He is the strongest of his era. Now what? Dooku is the number 3 of his own era when it came to force mastery - and that behind the strongest Sith Lord and the strongest Jedi Master up to that point in the history of the SW universe. I really wonder how something like that can be dismissed that easily.



Urm. Nope. Traya and Nihilus didn't "learn" the force drain. Kreia even says that it's a technique that "CAN NOT BE MASTERED". And Korriban was already almost completely plundered when Kun came there. I wonder how Revan could have found anything there - especially if you think about the fact that even the tombs of people like Ragnos or Horde (who weren't plundered before) didn't contain any knowledge.



With the exception of the quote from Dark Rendevouz that I have already posted? And please. You are also not able to tell me what Revan learned from Malachor or Korriban - yet you still keep saying "but Revan plundered Korriban and Malachor" like a broken record.



Oh yes. Dooku always had a fascination and held the belief that the Dark Side should also be studied in a controlled fashion - which was the reason why he never had a seat in the Jedi Council. But that, in turn, means that Dooku studied the Dark Side already before he met Sidious.

And please. Dooku steals the holocron out of the temple again during the Clone Wars - that aside from the fact that he had the holocron of Darth Andeddu.



You mean except from the fact that the dude kept his body alive after having already died? Not to mention that his freaking holocron image was able to use the force against Darth Krayt to have him temporaly consumed by his own armor?



Because Malak did what exactly with the force?



And as I said: Military genious wouldn't have any influence in a force or lightsaber duel, unless the participants are bringing their own armies to the battle.



Oh wow.
I do know what he did in the 70 years before that. Studying the force. I wonder how you came to the idea that somebody who wanted to become the greatest Jedi of all times and who saw himself as the true Chosen One would not spend his time with training his force and lightsaber abilities - especially when there is nothing else to do for him.

He still had more time for learning than Revan had during the Mandalorian Wars, the Jedi Civil War and in the 6 months passing between them (where he was searching for the Star Forge).

And don't get me wrong, Sexy. I'm not outright stating that Dooku was more powerful than Revan. I'm just saying that it's mere speculation to state that Revan had more force knowledge than Dooku because Dooku did spent far more time learning Jedi teachings - to an extend where he could deflect force lightning with his bare hands (and really - that feat is damn uncommon given that any Dark Side with exception of Vader is using that ability) and then had more than 4 times the time Revan had to study the secrets of the Sith (13 years in comparison to 3 years).

Yes. Revan might defeat him in a force fight. But I doubt that would be a piece of cake (and this is how some people here make it look like) considering Dooku's force abilities and his actual training time in the ways of the Jedi and the Sith.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Nope. It was the "force storm" technique from the KotoR games which is just an upgrade of force lightning in the matter of sense that the lightning is directed upwards and then hits multiple targets around the Dark Sider using it. Which wouldn't be effective against a single opponent - even less against a single opponent who has shown the ability to defend himself against force lightning.
Um why wouldn't it be effective against a single opponent? Instead of multiple bolts of lightning there would be one, so I don't know where you are getting this information from.




Congratulations. Yoda also studied for 800 years and couldn't come a 60 year old Sidious. So age doesn't equate to more wisdom and power. Revan's force mastery appeared to be greater than Dooku's.


Force grip was an unknown technique in KOTOR times? You mean Malak didn't use it against multiple Jedi on the SF while squaring off against Revan?


Why would I have to prove them? We know Revan plundered the underground cities of Malachor V and then Korriban. It doesn't matter if Bane used the techniques or not. Bane said Revan was a master of ancient sith techniques, which is more than could be said for DOoku.




And this puts him on Revan's level how?




It's not that it's dismissed it's that the KOTOR games and BOD put level on an incredible pedestal and even though the specific techniques are unknown, it IS known this his knowledge of ancient sith techniques was incredibly broad and his force mastery was second to none.




Kreia says it cannot be TAUGHT. Furthermore, Korriban was NOT plundered when Exar Kun came there. It was plundered by Revan and his troops. Exar Kun left for Yavin IV, unless you want to throw out the old argument that Exar Kun somehow came back to Korriban and took something, which means you'd have to prove it. Kun was a Naga Sadow patsy. His knowledge of ancient sith techniques were limited to Sadow's teachings.




And again I don't have to. He plundere those cities, Bane states he was barely able to wrap his mind around the techniques that Revan showed in his holocron, ergo Revan KNEW ancient sith techniques on a very broad scale.




Oh really? You mean those fake sith holocrons in the jedi temple that were carefully placed there by the sith?



So what did Dooku learn? Or rather how long did he study the holocron? Could have been a week? A year? A day?




Whirlwind abilities, able to choke 2 jedi simultaneously while goading Revan, force lightning, force drain. That's more than could be said for Dooku.


Quantity does not equal quality, otherwise Yoda's experience and mastery would have been enough to defeat Sidious.

what Nihilus does and what Traya do seem vey different
she does a powerful Force Drain Nihilus does "Force Devour" or whatever
what Kreia exactly said about Nihilus' power is:
"It cannot be taught. It can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

which seems to me to mean you must be severed from the Force and die before you can learn it because well that's the effects you must experience first-hand

Originally posted by Darth Sexy



Kreia says it cannot be TAUGHT. Furthermore, Korriban was NOT plundered when Exar Kun came there. It was plundered by Revan and his troops. Exar Kun left for Yavin IV, unless you want to throw out the old argument that Exar Kun somehow came back to Korriban and took something, which means you'd have to prove it. Kun was a Naga Sadow patsy. His knowledge of ancient sith techniques were limited to Sadow's teachings.


Didn't he learn quite alot about the force when he stole that holocron? I remember you stating this somewhere...

So no, i doubt he is limited to ONLY sadow's teachings.

Didn't he get a few ancient sith scrolls with teach ancient sith techniques when he went to korriban or did he get them somewhere else?

He got the sith holocron from Odan Urr. It could't be the one that Sadow made because Palpatine had had that one and Kun destroyed the one he had. The only thing we know he learned from his holocron was the double blade.

Didnt kun get another holocron during the attack on Ossus

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
He got the sith holocron from Odan Urr. It could't be the one that Sadow made because Palpatine had had that one and Kun destroyed the one he had. The only thing we know he learned from his holocron was the double blade. wtf? All he learned was how to make a dbl or use it? I thought you said he learned reasonable amount of force knowledge from it?

And as for sadow's holocron so what if it was in the hands of palpatine? It *could* have been in the hands of exar kun seeing that he was so eager to learn sadows teachings.

Btw where did he learn that "ebony/black" lightning? I don't recall him ever using it..

Originally posted by Ivalice
Btw where did he learn that "ebony/black" lightning? I don't recall him ever using it..

Its the attack he(spirit) and kyp used on Luke. And Kyp wanted to use it on Kun's spirit to kill him (even though kun' was now completely dead) and it might have been the attack used on Gantoris. Though it never was said where he learned it.

He and kyp? Did the power originate from kun? Because the DSSB states that he is a complete master of force lightning.

I think that black lightning attack is some sort of sith magic. I have no clue where he learned it but there doesnt seem to be a defense for it..

Originally posted by 123KID
what Nihilus does and what Traya do seem vey different
she does a powerful Force Drain Nihilus does "Force Devour" or whatever
what Kreia exactly said about Nihilus' power is:
"It cannot be taught. It can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

which seems to me to mean you must be severed from the Force and die before you can learn it because well that's the effects you must experience first-hand Oh damn seems he was nikkolas after all.

As compared too? Obi-Wan? Lord Hoth? Anyone halfway decent?



The same could easily be said for Revan.


Big Woop.
Bane was able to manipulate things on the sub-atomic level. I guess that puts him WAY above Dooku then. Come to think of it, all the Sith that made Holocrons would have had to do the same, Revan included. I guess Dooku's even further down the pecking order than I had previously thought.



What about the quality required to create starships using the Force and the Star Forge? Or in single-handedly defeating two huge, lightsaber resistent monsters that 3 of the best jedi of the time lost to?



Tulak Hords holocron. Ajunta Pall's sword? Qel'Droma's cloak? The circlet of Serresh? All after Revan had initially scoured the world. Also, didn't Krayt find 3 holocrons on Korriban?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
As compared too? Obi-Wan? Lord Hoth? Anyone halfway decent? The entire jedi order in 25 000 years?


Originally posted by Darth Exodus

The same could easily be said for Revan. Mmmhm true, just that he is an even greater jedi as the prodigal knight.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Big Woop.
Bane was able to manipulate things on the sub-atomic level.
Quantify and substantiate which you (would likely) never do at all. But i guess thats nothing new eh?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

I guess that puts him WAY above Dooku then.
Really? I think borbarads great and cogent argument refutes that.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Come to think of it, all the Sith that made Holocrons would have had to do the same, Revan included. I guess Dooku's even further down the pecking order than I had previously thought. And i guess you more stupid than i thought son, how does being stated to be one of the most powerful jedi and an even greater sith lord studying under someone supremely powerful to revan equate to being "further down the order"?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus


What about the quality required to create starships using the Force and the Star Forge?
LMFAO!! Since when revan can create starships with the force? It was the star forge doing so you idiot. Oh right you have yet to actually play Kotor(or pay attention to the dialogue) and yet you already have revans dick in your mouth sucking every quantity of sperm left in his balls.

I seriously laugh at your raging hormone fanboyism every time the name "revan" pops up anywhere.

Hell i am beginning to wonder if you ever saw revan mentioned in any novel or an appearence in the Kotor games, weather your dick steams up or not ready to impale an ******* which is not there.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Or in single-handedly defeating two huge, lightsaber resistent monsters that 3 of the best jedi of the time lost to?
Prove they were lightsaber resistant, find a quote and post it.


Originally posted by Darth Exodus


Tulak Hords holocron. Ajunta Pall's sword? Qel'Droma's cloak? The circlet of Serresh? All after Revan had initially scoured the world. Also, didn't Krayt find 3 holocrons on Korriban? Oh right revan as a lightsider would want to collect dark side artifacts, how amusing.

Oh and those 3 holocrons were kept by palpatine on korriban.

Arguing that Malak > Dooku is pointless. The only time that Malak has demonstrated power and skill beyond Dooku is when he's on the Star Forged, and I doubt that that would be clear cut, either.

There's just nothing pointing to a more powerful Malak. Cut. It. Out.

'The Matrix had to fall within exacting specifications, and Bane had spent hundreds of hours making thousands of precise, subatomic alterations through the Force....'- RO2 p.g.136



Any names?



Bastila stated that after Revan left that there was no one powerful enough to use the Star Forge, indicating that it required someone of emmense power in the force to control it.
And Revan's a girl. No dick.



Revan was a darksider at the time of her scouring of Korriban.
And I was just pointing out how many powerful stuff was still there to be found.

I think everyone is over estimating Revan as a single force user, his greatest skill was his leadership and military tactics in a war against the characters from the films he would ultimately win easily, however against Dooku he would most likely fail.

We can however only guess at certain things because as you play as Revan his power seems diminished and because you no him and could control him you think less of him.

also to the theory that revan fell to the darkside- i dont read the novels and have only played the games (both at least three times) but i think i agree with krei who says that revans fall was his own disition as he needed the power to defeat the true sith threat- with him leaving in mind how powerful did he become??? we dont no unless there is somewhere to find out in which case please let me no

Originally posted by paceme
also to the theory that revan fell to the darkside- i dont read the novels and have only played the games (both at least three times) but i think i agree with krei who says that revans fall was his own disition as he needed the power to defeat the true sith threat- with him leaving in mind how powerful did he become??? we dont no unless there is somewhere to find out in which case please let me no

Whether weather fell to the darkside on his own decision(sort of like Luke in DE) or not it does not affect the fact that he truly was a darksider his holocron shows that.

i sspose but it says something about his will, which may help in the fight against dooku

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
'The Matrix had to fall within exacting specifications, and Bane had spent hundreds of hours making thousands of precise, subatomic alterations through the Force....'- RO2 p.g.136 Ok, but that does not put him "WAY" above bane.


Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Any names? How about every one in the last 25 000 years?


Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Bastila stated that after Revan left that there was no one powerful enough to use the Star Forge, indicating that it required someone of emmense power in the force to control it.
And Revan's a girl. No dick. I'm sorry ******, revan never had the SF in his posession after malak died, it was destroyed. And bastilas statement was in K2 if you play the non canon dark side route.

Oh and controlling a station does not mean using the force to create ships idiot. You have yet to still prove that.

BTW revans a male and lightsider according to canon.


Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Revan was a darksider at the time of her scouring of Korriban.
And I was just pointing out how many powerful stuff was still there to be found. Yet nothing indicates "she" having them in posession, DESPITE the fact that a jedi wouldnt dare use dark side artifacts.

The holocron was made on Lehon, before he was taken by the Jedi. NEC indicates that he did indeed become the Prodigal Knight and rejoin the Jedi.



Firstly, the Star Forge is noted as a dark side artifact. When no Sith or dark siders were about to use it, it could not produce ships. True, the Star Forge does draw energy from the star it orbits, but the fact remains that no sith = no ships. Now, Bastila's holocron, though a non-canon version of events, relates to us that any pretenders to Malak and Revan's title tried to use the Star Forge were not powerful enough- it ate them up. It stands to reason that one must be an exceptional force user to use this artifact, whether it's making Star Forge robes, droids, or making ships does not matter.

Originally posted by Janus Marius




Firstly, the Star Forge is noted as a dark side artifact. When no Sith or dark siders were about to use it, it could not produce ships. True, the Star Forge does draw energy from the star it orbits, but the fact remains that no sith = no ships. Now, Bastila's holocron, though a non-canon version of events, relates to us that any pretenders to Malak and Revan's title tried to use the Star Forge were not powerful enough- it ate them up. It stands to reason that one must be an exceptional force user to use this artifact, whether it's making Star Forge robes, droids, or making ships does not matter.

He seemingly made a claim that revan used the force to create starships in his initial post.

I was simply pointing out to him that it was the star forge which is actually the one creating the starships, not revan using the force to create starships.
Yes it certainly requires a powerful force user to use the star forge without getting consumed as you pointed out, but how does that equate to revan "creating starships with the force" as mr exodus was fond of pointing out?

whats the point in debating it? revan>dooku. revan has acomplished far more.

and look at the poll. everyone else thinks so too.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
The holocron was made on Lehon, before he was taken by the Jedi. NEC indicates that he did indeed become the Prodigal Knight and rejoin the Jedi.

Um, I'm well aware of that Janus. So I'm not sure what your going for here.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Um, I'm well aware of that Janus. So I'm not sure what your going for here.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Quit while you're behind, and take some antidepressants, Michelle. You're embarrassing yourself.

Noted Nebaris

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No..

haha great quote... thats my motto now.

No..

So you don't have any specific names. Interesting.....



Even if it is non-cannon it is still relevant. The makers of the game wouldn't let anything be put in that contradicts the plot or any of the plot devices.


Bastila (in a hologram) said that after Revan left there was no one POWERFUL enough to use the Star Forge, indicating that the Forge requires someone with the Force to use it. And given that she included herself in that we can be sure that it needs butt-loads of Force strength superior to every other Sith of the time bar Revan.



Yes a jedi would 'NEVER' use a dark-side artifacts....... except for Ulric, Exar, Ben, Atris etc and very possibly Revan.
And Revan was not a lightsider at the time so she would have used the relics.

No, when it's n-canon, it is 100% irrelevant.



prove it

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Um, I'm well aware of that Janus. So I'm not sure what your going for here.

Your post implied that Revan was a darksider. For a moment, I thought you meant he had not been redeemed.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
So you don't have any specific names. Interesting..... I don't have to name any one moron, considering the fact that the quote itself already states he is more powerful than most jedi in the entire history.


Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Even if it is non-cannon it is still relevant. The makers of the game wouldn't let anything be put in that contradicts the plot or any of the plot devices.
Non-canon = never happened = irrelevant.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Bastila (in a hologram) said that after Revan left there was no one POWERFUL enough to use the Star Forge, indicating that the Forge requires someone with the Force to use it. And given that she included herself in that we can be sure that it needs butt-loads of Force strength superior to every other Sith of the time bar Revan. Powerful enough to control the station without getting consumed? YES, of course the station would need a powerful force user.

But HOW does that equate to using the force to create starships you fu(king idiot? You have yet to answer this! And to make matters worse YOU made this absurd and unsupported claim in the first place.

Being strong in the force, strong enough not to get consumed and to control the station does not equate to using the force alone to create ships dipshit, i don't think this is difficult for even mentally retarted people to understand, its as simple as telling the difference between an apple or an orange and if you can't tell that difference which is PAINFULLY obvious, your beyond any level of stupidity.


Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Yes a jedi would 'NEVER' use a dark-side artifacts....... except for Ulric, Exar, Atris etc and very possibly Revan.
And Revan was not a lightsider at the time so she would have used the relics. Except for the fact that those people you mentioned HAS got consumed by the dark side and fell to it and so if it consumes even powerful people like exar and ulic, why would some one like revan want to get consumed by the dark side by using dark side artifacts?

Originally posted by Ivalice
I don't have to name any one moron, considering the fact that the quote itself already states he is more powerful than most jedi in the entire history.
for entertainments sake could u name a couple?


just this quote puts him ahead of anyone of his era, including but not limited to, nihilus, traya, and sion.


well just the fact that nobody else could do it without being consumed by the forge puts him above anyone in his era, including, but not limited to, nihilus, traya, and sion.

and non cannon material (that was left in game) still states the game designer's intentions/estimations of/for the power level of the character. the reason it is still relevant is because the designers would not put anything in the game that over/under exceeded their intentions for the portrayal of revans power.

although it isn't as relevant as any canon data that you could come up with that would disprove the above statment of the hologram or conflict with it.

therefor if revan is higher then nihilus (DEFENITELY higher power then dooku) it would be logical to assume that revan would tool dooku.

sabers; dooku
force: revan
all out: Revan

Agreed that forcewise Revan beats the old man. Actually, I'm not even sure if the Count takes the saber one. He might lose... I think there's just not enough evidence. We don't know that much about Revan's lightsaber skills.

yea which is why its so hard to debate on sabers with revan.

wait. mandalore. help me with this. did I just make a good arguement?

Revan is an unknown, period. It's stupid to use him in these types of scenarios since we know so little about his actual abilities.

duh. i have only said that what, like 3 times about revan and bastilla.

Ivalice, since when is a sweeping generalization enough to support itself? So "Golden Age of the Sith Empire" means all other Sith Empires are silver at best? "Most powerful" should be twisted to fit the argument of those using it?

Count Dooku is mentioned as one of the most learned and skilled Jedi in many generations, true, but this doesn't make him the bonafide best among every single Jedi save Yoda who's been born in the last 25 k years by virtue of a sweeping statement. That's just silly.



Cut content may not actually conform to "how things really happened", but the potentiality of the events should still be considered. So unless cut content totally contradicts current events and is totally written out, it does give us insight into character's motivations, powers, and how the game designers invisioned them. For example, dark side KotOR II's Bastila claims the Star Forge ate up any pretenders to the throne of Revan. Because this version of events was overruled by LFL over a year after the game was released suddenly doesn't make the Star Forge not have this capability. Certainly, there weren't infants walking into the place harnessing its vast powers.



Perhaps I missed something, Ivalice, but Exodus is saying the controlling of the Star Forge is reflective of Revan's Force mastery and power considering he didn't get "ate". If he claimed anything else (Like Revan can make an entire Leviathan pop out of his cloak), then yes, that would be ridiculous.



LK, since when did any of those above Sith Lords attempt to use the Star Forge. Or why would they even need to? Sion preferred to hunt his opponents in the shadows, and Nihilus could eat planets himself. Traya could care less about ship power, she preferred to manipulate. Since when have any of them ever tried to use it and failed?

They didn't. Ergo, your point does not hold water.

Originally posted by Janus Marius

LK, since when did any of those above Sith Lords attempt to use the Star Forge. Or why would they even need to? Sion preferred to hunt his opponents in the shadows, and Nihilus could eat planets himself. Traya could care less about ship power, she preferred to manipulate. Since when have any of them ever tried to use it and failed?

They didn't. Ergo, your point does not hold water.

what about the darkside powers? it woulda made one hellofa stronghold/hq

and who would man the ships?

must admit, when i wrote this down i wasnt thinking of why they would even want to try the star forge....

I fail to see what the problem is, Janus, especially when the "sweeping generalization" is issued by a canon source. These statements aren't thrown around arbitrarily, and one must assume that they are included for a purpose. As far as the "Golden Age of the Sith Empire", if that statement is indeed correct, it clearly means that -- at the point that that quote was issued -- the Sith Empire in question was at its peak, be it in productivity, numbers, acquired power. If you're referring to the time of Marka Ragnos, it would also apply, as the Sith were highly numerous and in control of immensely powerful Force arcana, as well as isolated from their enemies where their knowledge could not be stolen, plundered, or lost.

Out of curiosity, other than Revan's "Sith Empire" (does it count? Weren't he and Malak the only true 'Sith Lords' in the entire regime), what other Sith Empires exist that would compare?



Why is it silly, Janus? Once again, the generalizations you speak of are canon statements. They very much apply unless they are contradicted by a higher source or are retconned. As it so happens, Yoda refers to Dooku as the Jedi Temple's "most learned student", the Complete Visual Dictionary refers to him as "the greatest" of the Lost Twenty due to his "strength in the Force" -- so he has been compared to some of the oldest Jedi and it is the conclusion of the LFL authorities that he exceeds many of them. Please give us a reason why we should not take these statements into consideration.

Originally posted by Gideon
I fail to see what the problem is, Janus, especially when the "sweeping generalization" is issued by a canon source. These statements aren't thrown around arbitrarily, and one must assume that they are included for a purpose. As far as the "Golden Age of the Sith Empire", if that statement is indeed correct, it clearly means that -- at the point that that quote was issued -- the Sith Empire in question was at its peak, be it in productivity, numbers, acquired power. If you're referring to the time of Marka Ragnos, it would also apply, as the Sith were highly numerous and in control of immensely powerful Force arcana, as well as isolated from their enemies where their knowledge could not be stolen, plundered, or lost.

Out of curiosity, other than Revan's "Sith Empire" (does it count? Weren't he and Malak the only true 'Sith Lords' in the entire regime), what other Sith Empires exist that would compare?


I would like to see this "sweeping generalization statement" right here, as a direct quote.

does it say "among the greatest?" or "the greatest?" that among defenitely is relevant, so NEVER forget it.



ill do my damnest.



Most learned student. among whom? does this mean every jedi student? ones yoda has trained? among all of the students at coruscaunt? this greatly depends on the context, intention of the writers, and at what time this was said (was it said to luke, or tpm anakin?). was he the most learned student among ones such as obi wan and qui gonn? when was this said, what what was the context, and out of who did he mean to call him the greatest? i am forced to believe that he meant during the time that he was a padawan, in which case, he would have been the greatest, being peered by ones as qui gon jinn.



substantiate. who compared him? when did the lfl authorities say this? where? does this mean i can compare all i want and then go use it in a debate?

other then that i agree. he exceeds many of the old jedi including (but not limited to) bastila, juhani, jolee, visas, zayne, and many others.

once again, this says nothing, there were countless worthless old jedi...


i would like to see the ENTIRE quote calling him "the greatest of the lost 20"untill then... i remain sceptical.

Thanks Janus, no I wasn't claiming that but I should apologise for not being more clear. I was claiming that it spoke volumes about Revans sheer power and mastery. However, Revan might have had a hand in creating those Ships , if only to manipulate the controls, like pushing a button but with the force and on a bigger scale, I can't tell though so I'll drop that line of speculation.



Palpatines?




Revan is definately not most jedi. And a history of unknowns means jack when the highest level of contender that we see for Dooku is Githany

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Thanks Janus, no I wasn't claiming that but I should apologise for not being more clear. I was claiming that it spoke volumes about Revans sheer power and mastery. However, Revan might have had a hand in creating those Ships , if only to manipulate the controls, like pushing a button but with the force and on a bigger scale, I can't tell though so I'll drop that line of speculation.

I doubt it, I seem to remember hearing that Revan tried to limit his contact with the star forge so he wouldn't get dependent on it. I would have to remember who said it, but it still pop into my mind.


I can see why you say Palpatine's because a sith is in control of the of the galactic empire. But I think for it to be considered a sith empire that you would have to have more sith involved than just two, the empire doesn't base laws to my knowledge on sith teachings/principles(the only people who might receive some is the emperor's hands) are not widespread throughout the empire where the overwhelmingly majority of the civilians and the military are not force sensitive.


Revan is not most jedi hence the whole point of being called a prodigal knight on Lehon after the star forge was destroyed by Master Vandar. Post kotor Revan's story is suppose to be passed down by the jedi. I do see why he can't be included in the statement but he came back to the lightside so i can see how dooku being called the "greatest failure" would not include Revan part of the statement being called the most learned might include Revan though it is worth pointing out that dooku could have learned more as a jedi than jedi revan premando wars.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus




Revan is definately not most jedi. And a history of unknowns means jack when the highest level of contender that we see for Dooku is Githany How exactly is revan equating to most jedi? If you actually paid any attention which you clearly did not, i never claimed dooku > revan.

HAH and githany a contender of dookus level? Highly unsupported.

Hardly. Palpatine's Empire isn't considered a Sith empire simply because its supreme ruler was the reigning Sith master. Though, I will grant you, Palpatine's ultimate intention was to replace the Galactic Empire with his "Dark Empire", a theocracy based entirely on the dark side of the Force. However, that never came to fruitation due to his ultimate defeat 11 ABY.

Though the Empire made use of Sith philosophy and teachings, it was not overwhelmingly so, and the Empire's non-Force using personnel and hierarchy vastly outnumbered those who did.

I was responding to the point that you seem to be fond of throwing around that Dooku's status of being one of the best evre somehow puts him above high contender's. To spell it out, simply being one of the best out of a history of trillions doesn't put you on top of Revan at all.
And the point of Githany was put in becuase, to my knowledge she is the only other Jedi to be one of the Lost 20 that we know of. Showing that Dooku doesn't have any competition in that area. She might have been a padawan though. Either way, we don't know anything about the Lost 20 so Dooku being the best of them doesn't count for jack.

While it's not certainly conclusive, I would point out that Count Dooku's revered and legendary status does function as an important indication of his abilities compared to previous Jedi Knights and Masters. The Complete Visual Dictionary states, point blank, that Dooku is considered "the most bitter loss of the Lost Twenty" due to "his strength in the Force". Likewise, the Revenge of the Sith novelization makes it clear that "he was one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history" and that he is "now an even greater Lord of the Sith", meaning that he is among the very best ever. That's indisputable.

So, I hope it isn't your intention to try to ignore this completely, otherwise I could be just as petty and point out that Revan being the best of his era means jack shit to a guy who is confirmed to have been one of the best compared to all eras.

As opposed to who? Githany? Anyone that we actually know of?



The same is undoubtably so for Revan too.



The best is better than one of the best. While the statement undoubtably puts them in the same league, it doesn't make Dooku better. 'One of the best' could mean out of 20 or even 100, 'The best' can only mean number one.