Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

1. Sabers
2. Force battle

What are your thoughts on this?

Kas'im wins both. A Force Shield, conjured at the last second, blocked the portion of Bane's Force Wave that would have hit him and turned him into a pulpy liquid. For sabers, Kas'im mastered every single forum of lightsaber combat to the highest degree possible. Bane got lucky against him if you ask me. He was regarded as one of the best saber wielder ever, and possibly THE best saber wielder ever (doesn't include Force Users around after his death).

How is this even a thread? Darth Maul has virtually nothing going for him when compared to Kas'im.

Saber Technique - Kas'im mastered all seven forms for the single saber, saber staff, and dual sabers, and spent decades honing his skills.

Speed in close combat - whilst wielding two sabers, Kas'im made it seem as if he were wielding six, and this was from the perspective of the incredibly powerful Darth Bane.

Force ability - Capable of defending against a force attack that would have instantly demolished his entire body. Bare in mind that the darkside is best used offensively, rather than defensively.

Maul gets curbstomped.

I shall reserve my judgement until I read all the EU material on Maul (I have looked it out and will set aside a weekend to revel in the Darkside), but with Sabers I must say that Kas'im does seem terrifically skilled.

This business of force shields seems ambiguous however.

I shall see.

Kas'im would win this so badly that it wouldn't even be funny....



















Well mabye a little.

Nah he wouldn't rape but Kas'im toys with him and then cuts him in half. Then he gets found by his other brother Ravage Ipress and brought back to Bathomir where Father Tolzin gives him horse legs made out of carbon fibre and tells him he'll get vengeance. He finds the Rogue Handolorians, Death Clock and makes one massive crime syndicate with the Orange sun and the Bykes. Deeming himself true lord of the sith, Maul feels a presence, someone powerful. When Kas'im's ship lands, he challenges the brothers to a duel where he slays Ravage. Witnessing his brother's death, Maul becomes enraged and has a lengthy duel with Kas'im. Maul over extends one of his bloodlusted offensives and gets impaled. The end.

The max amount of cancer one post can have is up there ^

I've given my opinions on the matter here.

I just find Kasim to be the more resourceful fighter. Very close though.

Every opinion on this thread is embarrassing.

As is getting cut in half by a padwan kenobi

Are you trying to be witty or is that a serious argument? I honestly can't tell...

Every argument I've put forth so far is a deep conviction of mine. I'm a bit of a back-bedroom causality in that regard. I write things down furious and self importantly, thinking it will be mummerd as ancient lore. There is no facade or baiting here. With everything we know about him, I don't rate Maul much above a Trayas Academy Sith Marauder.

Truth be told, while Maul getting cheapshotted by TPM Obi-Wan doesn't mean anything in terms of direct combat, it's not like the shit didn't happen. It demonstrates Maul is a stupid ****** who plays with his prey and lowers his guard

Yeah, because Kas'im never overconfidently lowered his guard, before getting pwned... oh wait. Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Every argument I've put forth so far is a deep conviction of mine. I'm a bit of a back-bedroom causality in that regard. I write things down furious and self importantly, thinking it will be mummerd as ancient lore. There is no facade or baiting here. With everything we know about him, I don't rate Maul much above a Trayas Academy Sith Marauder. Link me to these arguments friend, sounds amusing.

I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or not.

That's my line.

Maul clowns him.

What a sad thread.

I now see why The Great Master acted so harshly against these people..

Maul wins

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Maul clowns him.

No. Maul can clown an operative of space thugs and junkies, those of whom work in a time of galactic leniency. He couldn't 'clown' the only Force-sensitive bodyguard of that group. A random Nightsister. He doesn't clown Bondara, and gets grievously wounded in the process of victory. And of course, he was almost killed by the master's padwan. Fast forward a few years, and another padwan actually bisects him.

You might want to tell me which swordmasters Maul is clowning, and how he does so to Kasim?

That Padawan you keep lowballing mastered lightsaber combat by thirteen.

Defeated a notorious Bounty Hunter that stalemated Jinn when said Padawan was thirteen.

Is put over as the fastest person on an entire planet.

Moved so fast that he surpassed physical blurs alongside two Jedi Masters while thirteen.

He was counted among the greats with people like Adi Gallia, QGJ, Eeth Koth, and more while still a Padawan.

So quit lowballing Kenobi as if he was a mook yeah?

He also seems to have forgotten about that one Jedi Master named Qui-Gon. mmm

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
That Padawan you keep low-balling mastered lightsaber combat by thirteen.

DolfZigglerStardust : Maul was bisected by a Padawan
FatedMollyPillz : Hey! Don't lowball Kenobi. He's not a mook, yeah?

If you're not going to represent my argument properly, how about not addressing it at all, yeah? And you might want to tell me what aspect of 'lightsaber combat' has been mastered or who casts judgement on his aptitude? Is it the saber-to-saber combat side considered too outdated to be popularized? Or is it the type of combat focused on contemporary weapons, like blasters? I'm thinking the latter considering the humiliation Dooku (an actual duelist) gave his older and more experienced self. Kudos for not getting slaughtered by the droids on Geonosis (spelling).



First point, you're going have to tell me who that is. Second, I imagine this isn't a planet of trained Force sensitives we're talking about... right.



He surpassed physical blurs alongside two masters? It helps me if your points are more coherent. But if you don't want me to expose their superficial nature , then by all means continue an typing. Otherwise, I Imagine we have a generic speed feat that has been matched by novices. Not that it's the be-all-end-all of combat either. If the TPM novel is to be trusted, Obi Wan was faster than Qui-gon, but not as skilled.



So basically, no one special.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He also seems to have forgotten about that one Jedi Master named Qui-Gon. mmm

I don't see much 'clowning' in their fight.

Clowning would be what Kenobi did to Opress, the latter having back-up from his brother. Or what a blinded Kanan did after a few blade-clashes with Maul.

Depends on how literally the term is being used.

On the other hand, he eclipsed Qui-Gon's ability, and Jinn didn't stand a chance.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Depends on how literally the term is being used.

There is not a sound interpretation that can rationalize a "clowning" here. Unless you think Maul wanted to get slapped in the face and dropped from a 5 story height.



And let's go back full circle. How does this make him better than Kasim? Secondly, standing a chance is exactly what Qui Gon did. And given the ludicrous circumstances that Obi Wan reclaimed, there is certainly room for most everybody to have "a chance" against Maul.

Maul.

Originally posted by Trocity
Maul.

Any reasons pal?

Kas'im, a supposed blademaster who's dominated saber combat, got killed by a PoD Bane that although talented, was no where near as skilled as Maul is and had barely begun his training as Sith.

First off, Maul defeated both Jinn and Kenobi individually, and only together they could manage to pose a threat to him. Him getting cut in half is a result of overconfidence and cockiness and nothing more, a mistake we never see him make again.

Maul was also stated to have become more powerful after TPM, during TCW. Every time they duel , he has the edge over Kenobi and has him on the go, even with the aid of Ventress.

Kenobi was one of the most proficient Soresu user and one of the top tier combatants of the PT. Only the likes of Dooku, Mace and Yoda are above him, which speaks a lot of his skills. The fact that Maul is = or slightly above him should easily indicate someone like Kas'im is considerably below him. What has Kas'im done? What are his feats? What are his accolades, other than being the best swordmaster out of a mediocre Order of Sith?

A trainee Bane who didn't even know jar'kai and whose only opponents had been fodder trainee speculated in the middle of combat that he might be the greatest swordsman ever.

Originally posted by Petrus
Kas'im, a supposed blademaster who's dominated saber combat, got killed by a PoD Bane that although talented, was no where near as skilled as Maul

Which is nothing other than a poor attempt at lowballing. At least in the context of PoD, the principles of lightsaber combat, and what makes a master duelist are nicely defined. I don't think it needs repeating. POD Bane was winning through his superior force connection, something he has in leagues above the Maul. And when it comes to Kasim and Maul, bane is more powerful than either.



"You're training is complete, they won't stand a chance against you". Warning - quote accuracy. Regardless of semantics, the meaning is correct. So you are wrong as per Sidious' own words. Not that Maul was ever trained as a proper 'sith' given that he can barely fend off sparkly lightning bolts, and wasn't worthy of producing them. Furthermore, as his training was supposedly complete, it's logical to assume sidious wouldn't teach him anything more than the limited set of tasks he's been bread for. Maul is really more of a dark jedi, than a 'true sith'. A tool to be used and then disposed of.



It was certainly a mistake on Mauls part, rather than some miraculous godsend for the Jedi learner. But it really doesn't look good. Either he chose not to react to Kenobi, or simply hadn't the ability to. You can pick one, but either option musters his skill with a stinking log. From an out-of-universe perspective, it's slapstick writing. But I put it down to the philosophy of Juyo. And his poor defense has creeped up more than one time since.



Bring forth the quote, the source's name and I will examine it from there. Logically, halving one's midi-chlorian count would make one weaker. So I can't see how a power increase is possible.



The relationship between Maul and Kenobi is capricious. Regardless, Kenobi is probably better. He likely grew at faster rate than Maul during the time of, and after TCW. And it makes perfect sense, Maul was one of the only beings in the PT to be trained for actual combat with live opponents. You can't say the same for Kenobi, who was travelling around acting as some sort of 'galactic sherif' until the clone wars. Maul then looses potential via bisection. Capping his fantasies short. He admits he can't beat Vader in his 50's while Kenobi is nigh-stalemating him.



And how are you measuring duelists from different eras? There aren't any comparisons between Kasim or Mace Windu, so claiming one is better than the other is just baseless speculation. You are right, Kasim was the top-dog of his era, as was Mace. The difference being that Mace lives in an era that doesn't expect saber-to-saber confrontations - or really any confrontation at all. The routine practice for Jedi of that time, was one of diplomatic character.

You do realize that much of Dooku's time as a Jedi was spent solving non-volatile conflict, no? A lot, if not most of the Count's renown came from being a political idealist. He was skilled at resolving conflict throughout the galaxy such as the Sevarcos Dispute of 52 BBY. Which was one among many missions that required no actual fighting whatsoever. Though, his first real hint of action was against the Mandalorians on Galidran. And of course, Jango Fett was humiliating Jedi left and right with his bare hands; demonstrating how unprepared the PT era were for any sort of combat.

So it's no wonder that duelists like Mace and Dooku can stand out among their peers. They didn't exactly have much competition. The brotherhood may not be much compared the Sith of old or the banite line. But Maul wasn't part of either. The brotherhood were almost certainly stronger than the Jedi during the rise of the empire, however. The repression of Jarkai not withstanding.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
A trainee Bane who didn't even know jar'kai and whose only opponents had been fodder trainee speculated in the middle of combat that he might be the greatest swordsman ever.

I'd still take that over being just a tool (sheev) or a skilled animal (Dooku)

Originally posted by Petrus
Kas'im, a supposed blademaster who's dominated saber combat, got killed by a PoD Bane that although talented, was no where near as skilled as Maul is and had barely begun his training as Sith.

Bane was skilled and experienced enough to know every move Kas'im could possibly try to do with his double-bladed style, counter them all and seize the advantage. In terms of skill that's all you need to beat someone. Note that Kas'im had mastered all forums and spent decades perfecting all of them. So I fail to see what Maul could do to Kas'im that would be more skillful and effective than what Bane could do.

As if Bane knew ever technical sequence that could be invented and countered, Kas'im knows all aspects of lightsaber combat but utterly fail to come up with something to beat a vastly less skilled opponent? Yeah he's ****ing trash tier

Lmao. Kas'im did come up with something to beat Bane with, retard.

Withholding a form and sabotaging his training isn't "coming up with something" idiot. You keep sucking his dick when it comes to technicality and skill, when he had to resort to cheating and he still died like an incompetent loser

No one takes him seriously other than you and the other Banetards

Or maybe, just maybe, Bane's a better duelist than Kas'im is in a combative sense due to his superior strength in the Force that Kas'im's technical skill couldn't overcome?

Yeah, he should have had a sense of fair play and instead invented a move on the spot that's more effective than the techniques he spent decades creating to maximise effectiveness, to defeat an opponents who's superior to him in strength, power and speed and knows all he can do while getting reamed in an enclosed space. Instead of just taking advantage of a weakness he knew he could easily exploit.

Bane knew everything Kas'im could do with that weapon and how to counter it, he wasn't vastly less skilled.

So given that there are no counter arguments for Maul, I assume Kasim's got this one in the bag

Originally posted by MythLord
Or maybe, just maybe, Bane's a better duelist than Kas'im is in a combative sense due to his superior strength in the Force that Kas'im's technical skill couldn't overcome?

He won because of a better connection to the force, not because he was more skilled.

That's not the point its the fact for all of Kas'im's technical skill he couldn't come up with a new sequence or moveset to win, and he died a failure who had to cheat and still lost



So I'm guessing that you still have no excuse that for someone whose "mastered every aspect of lightsaber combat" he couldn't actually come through with his supposed mastery? Lmao, keep making excuses

Originally posted by carthage
He won because of a better connection to the force, not because he was more skilled.

That's not the point its the fact for all of Kas'im's technical skill he couldn't come up with a new sequence or moveset to win, and he died a failure who had to cheat and still lost

Indeed, so that means, *gasps*, innate talent > technical skill? It's not like that's a running theme in Star Wars or anything...

Kas'im did apply a new sequence, he just didn't invent one on the spot with a bloodlusted Bane breathing down his neck. That's like saying Mace Windu sucks as a duelist because he didn't magically invent a new sequence to deal with Sora Bulq or Asajj Ventress on the spot but had to resort to, *gasps again*, Vaapad. So yeah, take your pathetic double standards elsewhere.

Originally posted by carthage
That's not the point its the fact for all of Kas'im's technical skill he couldn't come up with a new sequence or moveset to win, and he died a failure who had to cheat and still lost

Well as far as dueling goes, Kasim was winning, and didn't even truly loose a contest of Force powers. He quickly and instinctively nullified bane's wave, and only died as a result of the environment they were in. I can't see Maul surviving the sort of collateral damage caused By Bane's power and I certainly don't see him producing it. So how is Kasim's death relevant to Maul? so far no one's anyone answering that question. The Novel literally spells out how Bane overcame the technical gap - we even have Kasim emphasizing power over technicality. Do you think Anakin is more technically skilled than Dooku? Someone who's dedicated a little more than 7 decades to master the art of saber combat?

What a about the battle master Cin Drallig - who's presumably learned in every fighting form - and has even mastered Juyo... something that was deliberately restricted from Anakin's practice (Jedi Path) by the blade master himself. Surely if Cin was so skilled and refined, he should have been able to surprise Anakin with the very form he forbade him to learn. But he didn't. And was swatted asunder in a single strike. Is he also a "failure" as someone who had already constrained Anakin's skills, but lost without a fight? What about Dooku being disarmed by Savage, the latter of whom only getting a few weeks training, most of that coming from himself?

When you compare the two, Kasim starts to look less like a failure, don't you think?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
There is not a sound interpretation that can rationalize a "clowning" here. Unless you think Maul wanted to get slapped in the face and dropped from a 5 story height.Yeah, what I'm saying is that people use phrases like "clowning", "stomped", "sweeps" etc. quite liberally on these boards, and shouldn't be taken quite so literally.

Moving on. Well first of all it makes short work Kas'im being praised by Bane has "perhaps the greatest duelist ever", considering Jinn was regarded as one of the greatest Jedi the Order had ever produced, over its 25,000 year history. Yet Maul well exceeded his talents:

Maul appeared able to orchestrate the fight in a no-holds-barred struggle to the death. Supple and quick, he fought with a confidence and ease that threatened to eclipse the skills of the two Jedi.

- Star Wars Fact File 001

Though of course as objectively one of the most skilled and deadly Sith warriors in galactic history, Kas'im really has no advantage here anyway.

And no, he didn't stand a chance, of winning. Or rather Maul would beat him every time, 10/10, as he would Kas'im. Why? Well first of all he well exceeds Kas'im in training, who was taught by a "great Sith Lord" of the Ruusan-era and essentially came to represent the Sith lightsaber talent of that era par excellence. Supposedly perfecting all known saber techniques and inventing hundreds of his own.

Maul on the other hand is essentially his analogue, except after 1,000 years of the Banite Sith refining and improving their lightsaber techniques, studying at the feet of the perhaps the greatest Banite lightsaber combatant ever, to become one of the most highly trained Sith in the Order's history:

He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order.

Source : Star Wars: Fact Files #01

Darth Maul is one of the most dangerous and highly trained Sith in the history of the Order.

Source : Star Wars / Encyclopedia Databank

One of the deadliest, most efficiently trained Sith in the Order's history, Darth Maul's tattooed face is as symbolic of his utter devotion to the dark side.

Source : Ultimate Star Wars

Maul was described by Sidious as his "myrmidon", a "blazing lightsaber aimed directly at the hear of the Jedi Order", and a "perfect Sith weapon", and with the ultimate goal of the Banite Sith being the eradication of its Order, this would essentially make him an embodiment of its martial ability par excellence, just like Kas'im. Yet again in the contexts of a significantly more advanced Order, one where an individual like Venamis was regarded as capable of doing well in the Bane era, but entirely out of his depth in the current age. Whereas Maul by Palpatine's appraisal is anything but.

In fact multiple sources indicate that Palpatine regarded Maul as a true apprentice and a potential successor. With George Lucas stating Maul was never intended to die, and Sidious favouring him as a right hand over Mother Talzin. Point being? Not only does he possess better training than Kas'im, but a greater level of innate talent as well. He's objectively superior, and altogether possess a level of talent that well exceeds Kas'im's pay-packet.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
If you're not going to represent my argument properly, how about not addressing it at all, yeah? And you might want to tell me what aspect of 'lightsaber combat' has been mastered or who casts judgement on his aptitude?

Hahah! Fine then.

Kenobi is stated to have mastered lightsaber combat by the out of universe source Fact File.

He is continuously praised as an extreme talent by Yoda.

Jinn views the young apprentice as a skilled duelist.

Furthermore Kenobi is considered the best of the Padawans of his day, which would include legendary lightsaber virtuous Soara Antana(whose Lightsaber skills set her apart even as a child) and Siri Tachi the "best fighter in the temple" during her youth.



It's both.

You do understand Dooku knew Ataru inside and out right? A huge advantage would be given to him because of this no?




Ona Norbis, what's more impressive is she immediately rendered Jinn powerless while Kenobi completely outwitted her and bested her despite the fact that she eas using a lethal lightwhip



Go ahead, I am oh so terribly bored.


Here's the thing, i don't care for what you think. You refute my points with nothing but your opinion, which is of course, baseless. Give me quotes, and scans, not theories.



If you're an imbecile, then yeah, why not?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Well as far as dueling goes, Kasim was winning, and didn't even truly loose a contest of Force powers. He quickly and instinctively nullified bane's wave, and only died as a result of the environment they were in. I can't see Maul surviving the sort of collateral damage caused By Bane's power and I certainly don't see him producing it. So how is Kasim's death relevant to Maul? so far no one's anyone answering that question. The Novel literally spells out how Bane overcame the technical gap - we even have Kasim emphasizing power over technicality. Do you think Anakin is more technically skilled than Dooku? Someone who's dedicated a little more than 7 decades to master the art of saber combat?

What a about the battle master Cin Drallig - who's presumably learned in every fighting form - and has even mastered Juyo... something that was deliberately restricted from Anakin's practice (Jedi Path) by the blade master himself. Surely if Cin was so skilled and refined, he should have been able to surprise Anakin with the very form he forbade him to learn. But he didn't. And was swatted asunder in a single strike. Is he also a "failure" as someone who had already constrained Anakin's skills, but lost without a fight? What about Dooku being disarmed by Savage, the latter of whom only getting a few weeks training, most of that coming from himself?

When you compare the two, Kasim starts to look less like a failure, don't you think? Friend this hardly aids your point, considering that Maul exceeds PoD in raw power.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Moving on. Well first of all it makes short work Kas'im being praised by Bane has "perhaps the greatest duelist ever", considering Jinn was regarded as one of the greatest Jedi the Order had ever produced, over its 25,000 year history. Yet Maul well exceeded his talents:

Maul appeared able to orchestrate the fight in a no-holds-barred struggle to the death. Supple and quick, he fought with a confidence and ease that threatened to eclipse the skills of the two Jedi.

- Star Wars Fact File 001

This doesn't make short work of anything. Jinn's accolade holds no weight next to 90% of anyone we talk about. Neither does Mauls. These "one of the greatest" quotes mean nothing as a comparison to a duelist on Kas'im's level.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Though of course as objectively one of the most skilled and deadly Sith warriors in galactic history, Kas'im really has no advantage here anyway.

This doesn't mean that at all.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well first of all he well exceeds Kas'im in training, who was taught by a "great Sith Lord" of the Ruusan-era and essentially came to represent the Sith lightsaber talent of that era par excellence. Supposedly perfecting all known saber techniques and inventing hundreds of his own.

Maul on the other hand is essentially his analogue, except after 1,000 years of the Banite Sith refining and improving their lightsaber techniques, studying at the feet of the perhaps the greatest Banite lightsaber combatant ever, to become one of the most highly trained Sith in the Order's history:

He was one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order.

Source : Star Wars: Fact Files #01

Darth Maul is one of the most dangerous and highly trained Sith in the history of the Order.

Source : Star Wars / Encyclopedia Databank

One of the deadliest, most efficiently trained Sith in the Order's history, Darth Maul's tattooed face is as symbolic of his utter devotion to the dark side.

Source : Ultimate Star Wars

Neat. You know who else Maul exceeds in training? Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Considering Maul apparently had so much better training than Kas'im yet failed to master as many forms as him, kek. Kas'im had decades more training than he did anyway. And that's decades more training after mastering all lightsaber forms, something Maul never did, spent entirely on perfecting every move of every form for every style.

but no mauls one of the best in history obviously hes better hurr duur.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Maul was described by Sidious as his "myrmidon", a "blazing lightsaber aimed directly at the hear of the Jedi Order", and a "perfect Sith weapon", and with the ultimate goal of the Banite Sith being the eradication of its Order, this would essentially make him an embodiment of its martial ability par excellence, just like Kas'im.

Yeah but Kas'im was called "Darkness's Darkest Dark Knight", "Literally a black hole with a face" and "a weapon to surpass Metal Gear". Hyperbole checkmate. excellent

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yet again in the contexts of a significantly more advanced Order, one where an individual like Venamis was regarded as capable of doing well in the Bane era, but entirely out of his depth in the current age. Whereas Maul by Palpatine's appraisal is anything but.

In fact multiple sources indicate that Palpatine regarded Maul as a true apprentice and a potential successor. With George Lucas stating Maul was never intended to die, and Sidious favouring him as a right hand over Mother Talzin. Point being? Not only does he possess better training than Kas'im, but a greater level of innate talent as well. He's objectively superior, and altogether possess a level of talent that well exceeds Kas'im's pay-packet.

Literally the only thing you posted in this entire thing is a bunch of quotes about Maul being one of the best evar. Absolutely worthless garbage for comparing combatants on this level. 0/10 waste of time

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Furthermore Kenobi is considered the best of the Padawans of his day, which would include legendary lightsaber virtuous Soara Antana(whose Lightsaber skills set her apart even as a child) and Siri Tachi the "best fighter in the temple" during her youth.

how was obi-wan better than siri if siri was the best tho

Later she admits he is her better this is prior to their kissy face stuff so i take it pretty serious

TPM, SoD, and Rebels Maul all beat Kas'im.