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well he inspired me to make this thread in his small comparison of the two in the Bastilla thread
plus Advent's old post establishes Malak on his own is below Dooku
(so are a lot of people but just saying)

so which Sith wins here ?

Darth Malak

Is Malak being powered by the Star Forge in this duel?

no

Originally posted by 123KID
well he inspired me to make this thread in his small comparison of the two in the Bastilla thread
plus Advent's old post establishes Malak on his own is below Dooku
(so are a lot of people but just saying)

so which Sith wins here ? Malak wins a force fight but gets tooled in a saber duel by maul

I don't see how Malak, head and shoulders above an entire Sith Order consisting of hundreds, "strongest among us who leads" according to them, legendary swordsman (KotOR official website- unfortunately now defunct), and someone the Jedi Council was absolutely terrified to challenge could be manhandled in saber combat by a talented though relatively raw Sith Lord. Yes, Maul was good, but I doubt he was much far at all below Dooku; Dooku's real one-ups over Malak would be longer life leading to more Force mastery and Form II mastery (Though we are never told what form Malak uses).

I'd consider both Maul and Dooku, by virtue of also being above the vast majority of Jedi at the time, to be on par with Malak in reference to swordsmanship. Maul comes up well short in force powers, though. However, Maul having made the Jedi Battlemaster, someone whose skills were apparently close to Yoda and Mace, and second to none below the council, realize he was completely outmatched in moments, would be able to make Malak realize he'd had a fight

So then in this case, since both are lightsaber prodigies, the real deciding factor is Force powers and knowledge.

Pretty much. With Dooku, he has the edge there, but Malak is very likely above Maul with the Force. In a saber combat, it'd be extremely close

Why does Dooku have the edge in force powers over Malak? According to KOTOR and the Dark side sourcebook I think, Malak had more force abilities than Dooku

If it's simple stats, those tend to be fully disregarded. Story info is what matters

True, Malak was a bonafide Sith Lord, but Dooku was top of his generation and master of Form II. That makes him pretty damn difficult in a real battle. Personally, I think Malak's physical power would help negate some of the Form II precision, as well as Malak hardly being unfamiliar with a lightsaber. As for Force? Dooku's one of the best Force users of his era.

That he is Janus, but Malak was #2 of his. I'm not saying that automatically puts him higher than Dooku and I haven't read every book about Dooku, but Malak's skill with the force, especially on the SF, is considerable.

Here's what we know of Malak's Force abilities:

1. He can use Force lightning.

2. He can Force Freeze other Force users of decent skill.

3. He is way over Bastila's ability.

4. He was one of the two Sith Lords who used the Star Forge and wasn't eaten by its power.

5. Malak's showings in the final battle are buffed by the power of the Star Forge itself and reflect a boosted Malak.

For Maul's power...that's difficult, except we know he could shrug off Force Lightning from a Nightsister, use force choke/crush....he was also described in the TPM novelization as being more powerful than Qui-gon...both better with a saber and stronger in the force. He obviously doesn't use the Force a great deal, though

I doubt Sidious really wanted him knowing advanced techniques either.

Palpatine wanted him to be a powerful, vicious killer...and really, Palpatine was never in danger from Maul. Maul's 'initiation' proved that

If TPM Kenobi can slice Maul in two, Malak can most certainly do it also, and much quicker. Although Star Forge Malak is a "boosted" Malak, he is pretty powerful when you face him onboard the Leviathan, no matter how short that duel may be, when he's unboosted. True, Revan wears him down in that duel, but I doubt Maul could as fast as Revan could.

And yes, I'm doing that thing again. You know, ignoring the debate straying from the topic and going back to the beginning of the thread. It's my special talent

If Maul has Malak hanging over the edge of a pit and decides to get really, really careless, then Malak could indeed pull it off

Malak could still kill him even if he's not hanging onto a pit. It would be difficult, but Malak could pull it off.

In a saber fight, yes, Malak could. But Malak is at heavy risk, too

It is a 50/50 fight.

Both are uber awesome (I am using that term correctly, yes?).

I still have not set aside 15 minutes to read about Maul (but will do so soon) though from what can gather he is most impressive.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
In a saber fight, yes, Malak could. But Malak is at heavy risk, too

Indeed it would be a difficult fight. However, in a Force fight, while Maul can resist Force Lightning, do we know if he can resist a sustained bombardment by it? Plus the lightning of a Sith Lord is probably more powerful than that of a Nightsister. Also Malak can use Force Drain, which would wear down Maul's health in a Force fight.

I think I would give the fight to Malak about 70/30

Originally posted by caedusrulesall
Indeed it would be a difficult fight. However, in a Force fight, while Maul can resist Force Lightning, do we know if he can resist a sustained bombardment by it? Plus the lightning of a Sith Lord is probably more powerful than that of a Nightsister. Also Malak can use Force Drain, which would wear down Maul's health in a Force fight.

Yes, but the problem is even if it could sap Maul down, he's still capable of delivering a sudden strike while still being electrocuted

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes, but the problem is even if it could sap Maul down, he's still capable of delivering a sudden strike while still being electrocuted

Um, a sudden strike of what?

His lightsaber? It's how he killed said Nightsister

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I think I would give the fight to Malak about 70/30

Actually, on review I would give it to Malak at 67.547/32.453.

I base this on something that I have come across at another forum.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
His lightsaber? It's how he killed said Nightsister

Oh. I was talking about in a Force fight. Of course in an all-out Malak could block with one hand while lightninging (is that a word?) or draining with the other.

Originally posted by Light_Sith
Actually, on review I would give it to Malak at 67.547/32.453. Close enough

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Close enough

One must be as precise as possible when talking of these things.

When I read about Maul fully I am sure that I will have the correct answer to 12 decimal places.

This may not be good enough, but all we can do is try.

lemme geuss you had to use calculus to figure it out.

besides maul might be able to win but malak wins the majority of the time.

force wise, maul maul gets pwned.

Forcewise Maul gets owned by, what, more than 75% of the Force-users?

here's a question it's an old piece of waffle i read in older topics
why exactly did people think Malak was stronger than people like Nihilus or Traya simply because he was #2 to Revan ?
doesn't make much sense

Malak was able o easily defeat many mandelorians, Mandelorians who were extreemly efficient killers.
He was described as being very talented ust like revan, but was extreemly ruthless, when it came to battle.

He was the only person besides revan who was able to control the Star Forge without being consumed by its power, that in itself is extreemly noteworthy.

He isn't better than traya or nihilus because he's #2 to revan, he is that powerfull because he earned his rank and power.

i know
i was just asking why some people thought that
read it in older threads and thought maybe someone understood it

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8024833& amp;highlight=Malak+Nihilus+forumid%3A86#post80248
33

While it seems apparent that Darth Malak could overcome Darth Maul in a contest of Force powers, a much more cogent and logical argument would have to be made to suggest that Malak is superior to Maul in a strict contest of lightsabers:



.

Joining these forums was worth it.... people here know what they are talking about, unlike "debaters" from other Star Wars forums...

Anyway, hello everyone, I am looking forward to this.

Originally posted by Gideon
While it seems apparent that Darth Malak could overcome Darth Maul in a contest of Force powers, a much more cogent and logical argument would have to be made to suggest that Malak is superior to Maul in a strict contest of lightsabers

Agreed. Nothing indicates Malak is the superior duelist.

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Joining these forums was worth it.... people here know what they are talking about, unlike "debaters" from other Star Wars forums...

Anyway, hello everyone, I am looking forward to this. Touche and welcome

Thank you.

Originally posted by Gideon
Correct.

But I mean, what the hell? It's not as though those who make a naked claim aren't obligated to prove it or supply evidence so as to accurately map the route by which they used to get across LogicLand. Besides, Malak's got two things going for him that Maul doesn't; first, he's tall and second, Malak is from KotOR and we all know that video games > movies (KotOR even moreso).


You must definitely be one of the most intelligent debaters of these forums.... correct?

I read some of your posts in the thread where you debate Janus Marius, as well as other (older) ones from different debates. Those analysis and observation abilities are not those of a person with an average (or even slightly-above-the-average) IQ.

Originally posted by Gideon
Correct.

But I mean, what the hell? It's not as though those who make a naked claim aren't obligated to prove it or supply evidence so as to accurately map the route by which they used to get across LogicLand. Besides, Malak's got two things going for him that Maul doesn't; first, he's tall and second, Malak is from KotOR and we all know that video games > movies (KotOR even moreso).

Hmm.. touche.

Good for him. I'm glad training makes a Sith better than a tried-and-true Sith Lord who is "legendary" in his own time. Yoda was arguably more trained than Sidious, yet he was unable to overcome him. Apparently, just having training doesn't substantiate being a better duellist.



Good for him. I'm sure Maul's physical and Force-assisted abilities can be substantiated in this light when comparing him with another fighter.



Good for him. I'm happy that Maul is amongst the ranks of some of the deadliest Sith apprentices. Keyword there. He's not listed in the top five Sith Lords, or ranking head and shoulders above X amount of Sith in the Order's history. He's good. Very good. But better than Malak? Doubt it.

You're ignoring how Maul made two extremely fine duelists realize they were in over their heads in moments of engagement. With a saber, there's little going for Malak being above Maul.

We have not seen Malak achieve anything which would rank him above Maul, bladewise. There is nothing to it.

He has a reputation and enough prowess that, to me anyways, says he's on par with the tattooed one

Overall, you mean?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You're ignoring how Maul made two extremely fine duelists realize they were in over their heads in moments of engagement. With a saber, there's little going for Malak being above Maul.

I hope you're not referring to Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon...

I think he might be, yes.

Qui-Gon and Anoon Bondara.

Different duels, my mistake

Originally posted by Spartan 063
lemme geuss you had to use calculus to figure it out.



Quantum theory serves to work these problems.

As I say though, when I get my Darth Maul comic (type thing) I will give you all a more precise answer.

As far as I know Malak has most likely killed many Mandalorians in the war. But he did get struck down by Manadalore on his initial attack on the Arkanian Legacy,Loses his jaw at some point,he fights Revan on the leviathan and that fight never come to a conclusion and loses to Revan on the star forge. But he does have physical strength as an advantage and arguably has more experience.

Malak wins in the Force (Sith Lord, access to more knowledge, done more feats)
They draw with sabers.
Malak wins all-out (just)

Originally posted by Janus Marius Good for him. I'm glad training makes a Sith better than a tried-and-true Sith Lord who is "legendary" in his own time. Yoda was arguably more trained than Sidious, yet he was unable to overcome him. Apparently, just having training doesn't substantiate being a better duellist.

How cute; a suggestion that Darth Malak's "legendary" status during the Old Republic-era is somehow a counter to the statement (issued by the omniscient narrator) in reference to Maul's obscenely difficult and monstrous training. Sadly, your analogy fails. First, the only person to ever survive an actual fight to the death with Darth Maul would be Obi-Wan Kenobi -- who fought him once. He only had one "peer", Darth Sidious, who rarely spoke of him or made reference to him. In short, unlike Malak, there is little opportunity for Maul to achieve "legendary" status amongst his peers and fans -- simply because he had few of either. Eric Clapton and Jimi Hendrix are regarded as "legendary!!1!" by everyone who carries a decent knowledge of music; Neal Schon and Steve Vai are lesser-known and unlegendary, yet Clapton admits he's not as technically versed and as skilled as Schon or Vai. Fame, infamy, "legendary" status =/= talent, Janus.

Raise your game or get off the court.



Certainly. Maul was trained from infancy by a master with considerably higher standards and harsher tests. Malak? Not so much. Maul was trained from infancy in various martial arts and physical disciplines? Malak was a big guy. Maul spent twenty-something years being indoctrinated in Sith teachings and combat. Malak? Five, six years? Sorry, Janus. Only in KotOR Fantasy Land would that somehow tip in Malak's favor. Training, education, and standard of education clearly go to Maul.



As Nai said, this list of "apprentices" would also include Darth Bane, Darth Zannah, Darth Sidious, Count Dooku, Darth Vader, and Darth Plagueis. And Darth Malak as well.



"Harhar!!1! Malak is bettr becaz I think so!1!!1"

Nice try, Janus. When you perform a common courtesy by providing proof, we'll talk. The burden of proof is on you, my friend, and you're failing.

Wow...

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Wow...

What?

I'm guessing he wow's at your debating skills...?

i kenw you were into kinky shit

Originally posted by 123KID
i kenw you were into kinky shit

I'd prefer to keep that a secret...

Originally posted by Gideon
Or perhaps he was surprised how harsh I was. But, being a responsible pet-owner, when a dog pisses on my carpet, I rub his nose in it and beat him with a newspaper.

I know what you mean, but yes, I was wow'ing at your debating skills, as Mandalore guessed.

Originally posted by Gideon
How cute; a suggestion that Darth Malak's "legendary" status during the Old Republic-era is somehow a counter to the statement (issued by the omniscient narrator) in reference to Maul's obscenely difficult and monstrous training. Sadly, your analogy fails. First, the only person to ever survive an actual fight to the death with Darth Maul would be Obi-Wan Kenobi -- who fought him once. He only had one "peer", Darth Sidious, who rarely spoke of him or made reference to him. In short, unlike Malak, there is little opportunity for Maul to achieve "legendary" status amongst his peers and fans -- simply because he had few of either. Eric Clapton and Jimi Hendrix are regarded as "legendary!!1!" by everyone who carries a decent knowledge of music; Neal Schon and Steve Vai are lesser-known and unlegendary, yet Clapton admits he's not as technically versed and as skilled as Schon or Vai. Fame, infamy, "legendary" status =/= talent, Janus.

Raise your game or get off the court.

Well, Gideon. By your own standards the only being that survived a "fight to the death" with Malak would be Revan himself. And Kavar who "barely" managed to escape alive when the circumstances of his confrontation with Malak are rather unknown.

Of course, the legendary status (and by the way...Steve Vai is not a legend? WTF...he certainly is among guitar players) might not matter that much. He still had a talent in the ways of the force that made him the second most powerful force user in his own time, friend of Revan, who was without doubt the most powerful of the corresponding era.

Surely, Maul had some nice amount of training that Malak is missing (at very last the Sith training), yet Malak had several years of actual war experience that would have forced him to develop some nice amount of skill in a rather short amount of time. Perhaps on the very same amount or even more than Maul's training forged Maul into a "perfect Sith weapon". At least we can't write that possibility off.



Well. If training in the SW universe would matter that much, Gideon, you would of course be right. Yet the best example for a powerful force user, Luke Skywalker, tells us an entirely different story. Luke's actual training time in comparison to the Jedi and Sith before and after him is almost non-existant. He did grow through actual conflicts and confrontations. And yet he does still top anybody else in terms of lightsaber combat or force powers. Because, unlike many other force users, he was forced to become "great" by the circumstances he lived in. He was the only hope for a Galaxy ruled by the Dark Side.

In the same manner, Malak lived in times of war for a nice time of his life. First the Mandalorian Wars which, without doubt, demanded that he became strong in all possible ways of combat - just to survive them. Then the Jedi Civil War which also wouldn't have been a piece of cake. That would mean a development in personal ability compareable (or even above) that we saw in characters like Anakin or Obi-Wan from AotC to RotS. "Wars don't make people great", as Yoda said. Yet they most certainly make people stronger at the very least in the "personal confrontation" department.



Correct. But being "one of the best" and "one of the most deadly" doesn't mean he is the best or the most deadly, which allows enough room for speculation that the people above are actually better than he is. Darth Malak as well. Which is entirely possibly considering Malak's obvious talent in combination with his actual war experience.

Still. I would give Maul an advantage in a sheer lightsaber fight, going by the fact he defeated a guy on par with (TPM) Mace Windu (Qui-Gon) in lightsaber combat. In a force fight, Malak seems to be more powerful going by his showing. On the other hand: That we don't see Maul toasting people with force lightning (or other offensive force powers for that matter) doesn't mean that he wasn't capable of using them. One should think that he had access to techniques like that after two decades of Sith training. Especially since he's obviously able to resist a (weaker) form of that ability.

I am not suggesting that Maul is superior to Malak in the Force or in an all out fight, Nai, merely contesting the ridiculous notion that someone here has proven that Malak > Maul in strict lightsaber combat. So we've arrived at the same conclusion.

Steve Vai is well known and well regarded amongst guitarists, true, as is Neal Schon (who received offers from Carlos Santana and Eric Clapton to play in their respective bands, as a full time member, at the age of 15 ), but neither of them can compete with the fame and status of Clapton or Hendrix, which is the point: fame and status as a legend is not necessarily indicative of superior ability compared to those of lesser fame and status.