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Who wins?

I am sure that Vader would use the same move that Windu used.

Hell, Grievious was supposed to be badass in these cartoons (caught a few on youtube) but he cannot use the force.

There is nothing to stop Vader having his way with the lawnmower without engaging him with a saber.

Except that Grevious can move Very Fast. Much faster than jedi master Kenobi, and almost certainly faster than Vader. It depends on the arena then, to see if GG can get to Vader fast enough. If he can then Vader loses. Just.

Well, I'll go to swords for the moment.

In ROTS he just twirls the blades very fast and his attacks are quite poor.

Easy to defend against.

The cartoon version though? Well, he does seem very capable with the blades.

Now back to the force: If he can move fast he would probably want to get on his bicycle as getting too close to Vader would put him in danger of being crushed.

So, he can escape with his life at best.

Just my two cents.

its very.... hard to say. boba could have easily killed anh vader at one point just because he had him distracted, and vader didnt choke or crush boba.

my problem with the whole force crush thing is its a darkside move... why would mace do a darkside move?

and then if vader did crush him, it wouldnt kill him, just make him wheez.

and the clone wars grevious is ungodly. it sux how they took all that skill and ripped it off when grevious finally made it to the bigscreen.

i cast my lot in with grevious here...

if vader crushed GG it would be a far stronger version of what mace did and vader could crush GG's limbs since he destroyed that room made of Duralium and Lanthanide when he first woke up in his suit in ROTS.

and i do believe that those to metals together are stronger than Duranium.

but if GG can dodge vaders force attacks like he did Shaak Ti's then GG will take vader down in saber combat.

Vader crushes him like a tin can.

It's called the Force, people, and Vader happens to be a Sith Lord who's rather good with it.

hmm. hard to see, the versus results are. unless its a totally bogus thread. this happens to be a interesting one. vader could be killed by grevious. it would be very circumstantial.

sabers=grevious
force=vader
all out=a)close quarters=grevious (sabers)
b)furthur away=vader wins because of the force

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
hmm. hard to see, the versus results are. unless its a totally bogus thread. this happens to be a interesting one. vader could be killed by grevious. it would be very circumstantial.

sabers=grevious
force=vader
all out=a)close quarters=grevious (sabers)
b)furthur away=vader wins because of the force
I agree.
I doubt Vader could win with sabers, so if they start close to each other and Grievous can attack him with sabers before Vader uses the Force, he could win. If Vader gets a chance to use the Force, though, Grievous is toast.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

my problem with the whole force crush thing is its a darkside move... why would mace do a darkside move?

and then if vader did crush him, it wouldnt kill him, just make him wheez.



Well you pretty much answered your question here. It is a darkside move which is why when Mace used, he may have only used it enough to stop GG, not kill him. Vader, on the other hand, wouldn't do it to just to stop him, he'd do it to kill GG.

Now in sabers, Vader is no slouch and most likely better than 90% of the Jedi that GG killed, however, at this point in time, GG gets Vader in sabers.

Force, obviously there's no contest here. Even if GG gets close, Vader can send him flying backwards like Kenobi did. Or crush him. Or throw shit at him. And its at a distance, then same thing. Vader tools him with the force. Pulls his sabers away from him like OB1 and Anakin did in ROTS. I guess that would help in the all out portion.

All out i have to say Vader for the reasons above. If by some chance GG gets close enough to engage Vader in sabers, then Vader only has so long to increase the distance or fire off a force move. And I don't think that GG would tool Vader physically the way he did Kenobi.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Well you pretty much answered your question here. It is a darkside move which is why when Mace used, he may have only used it enough to stop GG, not kill him. Vader, on the other hand, wouldn't do it to just to stop him, he'd do it to kill GG.

^this is just speculation^ and i doubt at this point in time vader would have the power to crush gg like this.

the whole medical room crushing thing is in my mind not as impressive either because:
WHY would they be making medical equipment out of durasteel and super strong crap? they wouldnt. most likely it would be glass or some lesser substance that is not totally like ships armor. could you substantiate that they made the equipment in the hospital out of thick durasteel? if so, please do. we dont make our xrays out of battleship armor.


all too true.



anakin/vader have shown incredible telekenesis but, as i said before, grevious can probably take a force crush or two from him. medical equipment is not armor grade durasteel. what is throwing shit at him or pushing him going to do? remember, hes made out of armor grade stuff.... my point is if mace couldnt crush him to death, how could vader?

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
^this is just speculation^ and i doubt at this point in time vader would have the power to crush gg like this.

the whole medical room crushing thing is in my mind not as impressive either because:
WHY would they be making medical equipment out of durasteel and super strong crap? they wouldnt. most likely it would be glass or some lesser substance that is not totally like ships armor. could you substantiate that they made the equipment in the hospital out of thick durasteel? if so, please do. we dont make our xrays out of battleship armor.

actually the Emperor Palpatine Surgical Reconstruction Center where vader was operated on was made out of durasteel armor plating as well ass a mixture of lanthanide and duralium alloy as i stated before.

this is from wookieepedia

Dark designs

It was this gloomy location that served as the site of Darth Vader's rebuilding. The Sith stronghold hid in plain sight with large windows that seemed to show that there was nothing to hide. In addition, it relied on the Jedi's weakness of attacking a hospital and risking the patients inside. It featured four landing pads near the top of the structure for emergency cases. The interior was lined with ultra dense walls of neuranium shielding to conceal any radiation leak from the building's reactor. Surrounding this shielding was an exterior shell of durasteel built with armor of a lanthanide and duralium alloy. It was within the ChanPal SuRecon that Palpatine performed acts of Sith Alchemy.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
^this is just speculation^ and i doubt at this point in time vader would have the power to crush gg like this. How so? How would he not have the power to crush a throat? You'd have to prove that Vader isn't that powerful. And it's not really speculation. Mace, as a Jedi and practitioner of the lightside of the force, does not use the for offense to kill. Vader does as wielder of the darkside of the force. So it only stands to reason that where a Jedi would stop, a Sith would continue. Granted, Vaapad allows mace to enjoy the fight and tiptoe on the line separating light and dark, but that's a line a Jedi master wouldn't cross.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
the whole medical room crushing thing is in my mind not as impressive either because:
WHY would they be making medical equipment out of durasteel and super strong crap? they wouldnt. most likely it would be glass or some lesser substance that is not totally like ships armor. could you substantiate that they made the equipment in the hospital out of thick durasteel? if so, please do. we dont make our xrays out of battleship armor.
I never even mentioned the crushing of the medical room. matter of fact, I never even said durasteel. Nevertheless, it was still impressive...crushing the entire room by simply getting angry. Granted it wasn't a controlled feat (that we know of), but it speaks for his power level. So actually you would have to prove that the medical room was constructed of something else besides durasteel (as you can't prove a negative).

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
all too true. Indeed.



Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
anakin/vader have shown incredible telekenesis but, as i said before, grevious can probably take a force crush or two from him. medical equipment is not armor grade durasteel. what is throwing shit at him or pushing him going to do? remember, hes made out of armor grade stuff.... my point is if mace couldnt crush him to death, how could vader? Probably = speculation. What will throwing shit at him do? Knock him down/off of something. Give Vader an opening.

And you're saying that his armor is armor grade durasteel? So OB1 has the physical strength to bend durasteel? I doubt it. And in any case, Vader has a considerable strength advantage over OB1, and the force only amplifies physical (and some not) abilities.

So if Mace cant then Vader can't? That's horrible logic. Yoda is more powerful than Mace, yes? Well, as i recall, Mace did a hell of a lot better against Sidious than Yoda did. But if Yoda can't do it, then Mace can't do it, right?

Vader is a beast with the force and would completely dismantle GG with it, if he chose to.

I'd also actually be willing to bet that, with his armor on and with his type of fighting style, Vader could beat CW Grievous in saber combat as well. Maybe even the majority...

Hmm...wasn't it said that his suit/armor could protect against some lightsaber strikes? I doubt that GG's could. Although it would be 4 on 1, saber-wise.

Yeah that's why I said that with his armor on he could stand a chance. Luke's shoulder strike barely even dented it. I'm pretty sure it even has some cortosis weaved into it. I'll for the source for that. I'd be willing to say that his suit could take a few hits.

what about when luke easily cut off vaders hand in ROTJ? his suit didn't look very lightsaber resistant then.

It certainty did when he hit his shoulder and the lightsaber literally bounced off. It looked even more so when Han shot him in the hand repeatedly and nothing happened..

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
It certainty did when he hit his shoulder and the lightsaber literally bounced off. It looked even more so when Han shot him in the hand repeatedly and nothing happened..
Luke's blow in ESB seemed really light, though, and also Vader used the Force to block Han's blaster bolts, not just his hand, didn't he? Besides, haven't you read The Glove of Darth Vader? Vader's right glove is indestructible. Like xxxpoppunker182 said, Luke cut off his arm easily in ROTJ. Luke was pissed, and yes, Vader's armor does offer him some protection, even against lightsabers, however, Grievous's lightsabers are like saw blades - I seriously doubt Vader's armor would be able to withstand a lightsaber strike from Grievous, if Grievous got the chance to land one on Vader.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
How so? How would he not have the power to crush a throat? You'd have to prove that Vader isn't that powerful. And it's not really speculation. Mace, as a Jedi and practitioner of the lightside of the force, does not use the for offense to kill. Vader does as wielder of the darkside of the force. So it only stands to reason that where a Jedi would stop, a Sith would continue. Granted, Vaapad allows mace to enjoy the fight and tiptoe on the line separating light and dark, but that's a line a Jedi master wouldn't cross.

still speculation ^_^

wait, since i cant prove it negative, it defaults as positive? how is this logic? i never said anything about his power level.


um... once again, range=vader, as I said before....



is starwars insider cannon? because i read that the material grevious is made out of is capable to take starship canon blasts. I also read that he was killed because mace crushed his chest and then obi wan pulled the weakened chest apart using force strength. I read this in the november 2005 edition.


So if Mace cant then Vader can't? That's horrible logic. Yoda is more powerful than Mace, yes? Well, as i recall, Mace did a hell of a lot better against Sidious than Yoda did. But if Yoda can't do it, then Mace can't do it, right?
actually, yoda vs mace is a different topic, feel free to start the thread. Mace Vs Sideous was
A. an act
B. shatterpoint and vaapad.
C. magic and storyline inconsistency

and mace would not fall short so much farther then vader if you take the time to think about it. mace=jedi master anakin/vader=jedi counsilmember/sith peon.



more speculation.

did i mention that sideous would have tooled windu in the force?

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
It certainty did when he hit his shoulder and the lightsaber literally bounced off. It looked even more so when Han shot him in the hand repeatedly and nothing happened..

first off in ESB luke barely hit him and second go watch empire again when Han shoots vader. Vader deflects the blasts with the force if you look to the wall to the left of the screen you will see where the deflected blasts hit.

I've seen much more convinving evidence from Advent and a few others to believe that that wasn't the force.

greivious is mean and strong. esb luke is wimpy and vaders shoulder took a glancing blow. greivious probably has 50 times the strength of luke so i dont see where this is relevent.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
did i mention that sideous would have tooled windu in the force?

Speculation

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
greivious is mean and strong. esb luke is wimpy and vaders shoulder took a glancing blow. greivious probably has 50 times the strength of luke so i dont see where this is relevent.

speculation.

A lightsaber is a lightsaber. It does the same type of damage to certain materials. Granted Luke's was a glancing blow, but it still didn't go through his armor, it bounced off. It was no weaker a blow then when QGJ pushed his into the blast doors.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
greivious is mean and strong. esb luke is wimpy and vaders shoulder took a glancing blow. greivious probably has 50 times the strength of luke so i dont see where this is relevent.

I think you are underestimating ANH Vader quite a bit. Even after ROTS, Vader was still one of the best duelists. His power and potential did reduce, but he is still stated to have 80% of Sidious' potential and power at his peak (I don't remember the source, if someone does, please post). Even if CW GG wins this, it will be a very close match (and he probably doesn't). I don't understand what makes you think Vader is not strong with the Force by ANH. That's just plain speculation from your part.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Speculation



speculation.

A lightsaber is a lightsaber. It does the same type of damage to certain materials. Granted Luke's was a glancing blow, but it still didn't go through his armor, it bounced off. It was no weaker a blow then when QGJ pushed his into the blast doors.

speculation....

and... believe it or not, as a result of hyraulics, and being made out of steel and being a machine, he would be way stronger then luke (maybe not 50 times...) but im not debating this because it is still speculation as you said before.
wookiepedia on grevious' body:
where Poggle the Lesser and his Geonosian scientists implanted his brain and eyes into a duranium alloy body reminiscent of a Krath war droid, complete with LX-44 robotic legs. His vital organs were housed in a synthskin gut-sack impervious to vacuum.

on duranium:
Duranium was a substance much stronger than either Transparisteel or Bronzium. It was extremely durable, and was capable of withstanding a glancing blow from a lightsaber; however, it also had a very high melting point, making it difficult to shape.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Unknown_Soldier:_The_Story_of_General_Grievous this is where i read that his body could withstand a blow from a ship's cannon.

so he is actually made out of some nice armor pl8

Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
I think you are underestimating ANH Vader quite a bit. Even after ROTS, Vader was still one of the best duelists. His power and potential did reduce, but he is still stated to have 80% of Sidious' potential and power at his peak (I don't remember the source, if someone does, please post). Even if CW GG wins this, it will be a very close match (and he probably doesn't). I don't understand what makes you think Vader is not strong with the Force by ANH. That's just plain speculation from your part.

this has nothing to do with what i said, i didnt say that he wasnt strong with the force, i said that luke wasnt strong enough to make his glancing blow damage vader's shoulder. however, grevious is strong enough that probably any blow would dammage vader.

and... I never said that vader sucked or was crappy or any some such nonsence... i said that he would get smoked at close range lightsaber combat. and if he lost some potential and skill, what, was he 99% of sideous during the clone wars?

the point is, obi wan could barely take him out, and he gave anakin a sound spanking, and then anakin decreased in power and potential after the suit (no canon resources say this, but if you guys say it, ill run with it just to turn it on you) so: grevious<obiwan>anakin>vader hmm see how this is working out?

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
I've seen much more convinving evidence from Advent and a few others to believe that that wasn't the force.

either way Han's dl-44 is not as powerful as a lightsaber blade. and vader did reflect those blasts he didn't just take them thats is canon as it is seen in the movie.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
I've seen much more convinving evidence from Advent and a few others to believe that that wasn't the force.
From the script:

Faster than the wink of an eye, Han draws his blaster and
pops off a couple of shots directly at Vader. The Dark Lord
quickly raises his hand, deflecting the bolts into one of the
side walls, where they explode harmlessly. Just as quickly,
Han's weapon zips into Vader's hand. The evil presence calmly
places the gun on the table in front of him.

Assuming Vader doesn't use the Force to crush Grievous' organs like Windu did (don't see why he couldn't), then I'd say Grievous wins.

Grievous at full, uncrushed, strength is flippin' ridiculous in speed and strength, for a cyborg. I'm not gonna say what's already been said, but I just can not see how Vader is going to withstand a barrage of four lightsabers twirling with the speed and strength that Grievous can make them go.

Originally posted by darthsith19
From the script:

Faster than the wink of an eye, Han draws his blaster and
pops off a couple of shots directly at Vader. The Dark Lord
quickly raises his hand, deflecting the bolts into one of the
side walls, where they explode harmlessly. Just as quickly,
Han's weapon zips into Vader's hand. The evil presence calmly
places the gun on the table in front of him. Unfortunately, that doesn't say with what he deflected them. You deflect a blaster bolt with something tangible. It doesn't have to be the force. As i recall, his glove was smoking a bit, leading one to believe that he blocked them with his hand. If it was the force (and never touched his hand) then why even raise your hand? You wouldn't need to.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Unfortunately, that doesn't say with what he deflected them. You deflect a blaster bolt with something tangible. It doesn't have to be the force. As i recall, his glove was smoking a bit, leading one to believe that he blocked them with his hand. If it was the force (and never touched his hand) then why even raise your hand? You wouldn't need to.

Ok then why did vader raise his hand in ANH to choke that moff while on the death star.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Unfortunately, that doesn't say with what he deflected them. You deflect a blaster bolt with something tangible. It doesn't have to be the force. As i recall, his glove was smoking a bit, leading one to believe that he blocked them with his hand. If it was the force (and never touched his hand) then why even raise your hand? You wouldn't need to.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
Ok then why did vader raise his hand in ANH to choke that moff while on the death star.

Exactly, people always raise their hands... wheh has anybody ever blocked or deflected laserbolts with the Force without riasing their hand? Also, as I stated before, Vader's right glove is indestructible. Good point about the glove smoking, though.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Glove_of_Darth_Vader








But I'm not sure anymore, I think it's an unknown whether or not Vader used the Force.

Originally posted by darthsith19
It's an unknown whether or not Vader used the Force.

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/4/4c/Kenboi_Deflecting_Durge%27s_Attack.jpg

Apparently, that's just Obi's glove.

That picture shows those little icicle's stopping at least half a foot away from Obi-Wan's hand... whereas the blaster bolts not only stopped on his glove, but, as Subject pointed out, caused his hand to start smoking.. if there was no actual contact with the suit then the glove wouldn't be smoking.

Vader's right glove, btw, is a Sith gauntlet underneath cloth.

Little icicles.... lol

It's a hate crime to laugh at me

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Unfortunately, that doesn't say with what he deflected them. You deflect a blaster bolt with something tangible. It doesn't have to be the force. As i recall, his glove was smoking a bit, leading one to believe that he blocked them with his hand. If it was the force (and never touched his hand) then why even raise your hand? You wouldn't need to. If i recall correctly, it was stated in shadows of the empire novel that he could use the force to deflect blaster bolts...

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
It's a hate crime to laugh at me

someone is *lisp* sensetive...

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
That picture shows those little icicle's stopping at least half a foot away from Obi-Wan's hand... whereas the blaster bolts not only stopped on his glove, but, as Subject pointed out, caused his hand to start smoking.. if there was no actual contact with the suit then the glove wouldn't be smoking.

they did not stop on vaders glove you can clearly see in the movie where the bolts were deflected into the wall.

They were only deflected after they hit Vader's glove They essentially just bounced off.

Right, and we see yoda doing the same thing to a blaster bolt in acts of war.

But again its not like this ability is beyond vader and as i said, its been stated in the shadows of the empire novel that the force can allow him to deflect blaster bolts.

um... i dont see the difference. maybe the anim was off? anyway, there is never going to be any way to prove it either way. maybe, it was part force, and part glove?

To be honest, i do not think it can ever be answered and confirmed.

aggreed.

to be honest i can't remember how we got on to this and how it has any relevance to the topic

Vader would rip him apart, literally.

*sigh* here we go again...

Don't mind kiddo. He can't debate his way out of a paper bag.

hehe. k

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
to be honest i can't remember how we got on to this and how it has any relevance to the topic
Somebody said Vader's armor had some resistance to lightsaber attacks. The "block laser bolt with glove" was to prove how much protection Vader's armor had.

On another note, IG-88 could deflect blaster bolts with his hands, and Vader's metal hands would likely be made of higher-quality material than IG-88's.

well there you go then.

In the Clone Wars cartoon, Obi-Wan managed to block Durge's bolts with his hands. I know, I know, everything in the show was overblown. But if we're going to be using Clone Wars Grievous, we shouldn't disregard the abilities of other characters in the cartoons.

Anyway, if this simply a saber battle, Grievous would win. If Vader can use the Force, he'd simply crush Grievous like Mace did.

He used the Force, though, he didn't just use his hands alone. Though Vader can do that, I'm just pointing it out cause you made it seem like Kenobi blocked them with his hands alone. And, CW Grievous refers to Grievous in all CW material, not just the cartoon, I assume. In LOE he floors 4 Jedi at once and has a pretty close duel with Mace Windu.

Originally posted by darthsith19


On another note, IG-88 could deflect blaster bolts with his hands, and Vader's metal hands would likely be made of higher-quality material than IG-88's. Again, in the novel shadows of the empire it was stated that the force could shield him from lightsaber bolts, anyways how the hell does he send a bolt flying back at a storm trooper strong enough to rip his head off? Obviously he uses the force to amplify the bolts sheer power which means in that one instance in empire betrayals, he used the force to deflect the bolt.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Again, in the novel shadows of the empire it was stated that the force could shield him from lightsaber bolts, anyways how the hell does he send a bolt flying back at a storm trooper strong enough to rip his head off? Obviously he uses the force to amplify the bolts sheer power which means in that one instance in empire betrayals, he used the force to deflect the bolt.
Calm down dude why are you getting so worked up when nobody ever even hinted that Vader couldn't use the Force to deflect blaster bolts? We were discussing how much protection he gets from his armor and therefore the "blocking blaster bolt with his hand" came up, but nobody ever suggested that he couldn't do it with the Force.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Calm down dude why are you getting so worked up when nobody ever even hinted that Vader couldn't use the Force to deflect blaster bolts? We were discussing how much protection he gets from his armor and therefore the "blocking blaster bolt with his hand" came up, but nobody ever suggested that he couldn't do it with the Force. Hey chill i wasn't worked up or anything...

Is it because of the "how the hell did he?". Anyways its just a bad habit for me to type in hell everytime i make a statement. That does not mean im worked up though.

Racist.

yea....

Reported.

Don't go off-topic.

because you touch yourself at night....

Because I grew tired of having your Mom do it.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Because I grew tired of having your Mom do it.

...You as well, huh?

Yeah, only on Thursdays though. She's not really the best.. she tends to graze with her teeth.

I'll probably call her over when REX comes over on spring break.

what on earth makes anyone think Greivous could take OT trilogy Vader in a lightsaber duel, when he culdnt even take ROTS Kenobi????

Also Dooku toys with Greivous while sparring, and Anakin took out Dooku at such a young age.. Vader might not have been as physically capable after being chopped to pieces by Obi-Wan, but he had years to catch up to that level. and im sure Lucas has stated he eventually surpassed his ROTS self.

However Vaders midi-chlorian count stayed the same, so his Force Powers had definetely improved massively by the OT. 80% of Sidious's level, and remember Sidious's mastery of the Force would have been even greater by the OT, with another 20-25 years of Mastering the Dark Side.

Also who says Greivous was fast and Vader was slow. Just because they didnt have CG effects back in those days?? and Vader never had much competition for us to see the upper limits of his physical body.

Vader was a cyborg like Grievous. In fact Grevious was the sort of prequel to Vader.

So I say Vader takes Greivous in a lightsaber fight close up. Destroys him with his Force powers. and overall just destroys him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
what on earth makes anyone think Greivous could take OT trilogy Vader in a lightsaber duel, when he culdnt even take ROTS Kenobi????

Dude, anyone can take ANH vader, he's a rusty piece of junk. And barely anyone can take ROTS kenobi!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
what on earth makes anyone think Greivous could take OT trilogy Vader in a lightsaber duel, when he culdnt even take ROTS Kenobi????

Also Dooku toys with Greivous while sparring, and Anakin took out Dooku at such a young age.. Vader might not have been as physically capable after being chopped to pieces by Obi-Wan, but he had years to catch up to that level. and im sure Lucas has stated he eventually surpassed his ROTS self.

While I'm not saying Grievous would win or lose there is some things that need to be addressed.

Have you seen the clone wars cartoons? Grievous is extremely fast and has dodged force attacks and missles among other things. And Dooku didn't always toy with Grievous if I recall correctly Dooku stated that he was often "hard pressed" to repel Grievous in their training sessions. And you do realize that Cw Grievous>ROTS Grievous and that ROTS Kenobi was specifically chosen due to soresu being the best form to face him.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
While I'm not saying Grievous would win or lose there is some things that need to be addressed.

Have you seen the clone wars cartoons? Grievous is extremely fast and has dodged force attacks and missles among other things. And Dooku didn't always toy with Grievous if I recall correctly Dooku stated that he was often "hard pressed" to repel Grievous in their training sessions. And you do realize that Cw Grievous>ROTS Grievous and that ROTS Kenobi was specifically chosen due to soresu being the best form to face him.

ok so Dooku was hard pressed when sparring him, but still his superior. And Young Anakin was Dookus superior in Lightsaber dueling.

There was no mention of Soresu or Obi-Wans style in the movie, just that to face Greivous "A Master with more experience is needed" and then Obi-Wan was top of their list. The movie made out because he was the best Master out of the ones who were available to go.

Yeah I remember how tough Grievous was in CW, and was a bit disappointed by his easy defeat in ROTS. But even in Clone wars he was no match for Mace who just Force Crushed him right away as soon as GG pulled out his lightsabers. If Mace can do that then Darth shuldnt have a problem.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Dude, anyone can take ANH vader, he's a rusty piece of junk. And barely anyone can take ROTS kenobi! Say what? Oh you forgot that vader TOOLED 4 jedi knights very easily in a saber duel as well as other remarkable feats.
Why don't you prove he is a "rusty piece of junk"? I don't have to prove anything as you made a claim and the burden falls on you.

Originally posted by skywalker833
Dude, anyone can take ANH vader, he's a rusty piece of junk. And barely anyone can take ROTS kenobi!

Rusty piece of Junk??? Well I think thats totally ruining the biggest on screen villain in movie history. Dnt let the fact that it was an old movie with no CG effects cloud your judgment about how powerful Vader was! He had the same midichlorian count as Anakin but with an added 20 years of mastering the dark side!

and why would Grievous's cyborg armour be so slick, fast and agile, and then just to give Vader a rusty piece of junk?? that wuldnt make sense. The whole idea of introducing Greivous was to show a kind of run up to Vader.

its not that ROTS Kenobis not tough, but its just that he was barely a match for the young Vader no match for Count Dooku so he wuld not fair too well against Vader in his prime.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Rusty piece of Junk??? Well I think thats totally ruining the biggest on screen villain in movie history. Dnt let the fact that it was an old movie with no CG effects cloud your judgment about how powerful Vader was! He had the same midichlorian count as Anakin but with an added 20 years of mastering the dark side!

and why would Grievous's cyborg armour be so slick, fast and agile, and then just to give Vader a rusty piece of junk?? that wuldnt make sense. The whole idea of introducing Greivous was to show a kind of run up to Vader.

its not that ROTS Kenobis not tough, but its just that he was barely a match for the young Vader no match for Count Dooku so he wuld not fair too well against Vader in his prime.
True but this is EU Grievous, not ROTS Grievous. And ROTS Vader > OT Vader. This is George Lucas from the ESB Audio Commentary:

"In terms of Sith, if you have Sith Lords there's usually no more than two because if there's three, two of them will gang up on one of them to try and become the dominant Sith. And Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn't been debilitated. And now he's half machine and half man so he's lost a lot of the power in the Force and has lost a lot of feasibility to be more powerful than the Emperor."









And Ivalice, in case you are confused, I'm not saying Grievous > Vader.

Originally posted by darthsith19
True but this is EU Grievous, not ROTS Grievous. And ROTS Vader > OT Vader. This is George Lucas from the ESB Audio Commentary:

"In terms of Sith, if you have Sith Lords there's usually no more than two because if there's three, two of them will gang up on one of them to try and become the dominant Sith. And Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn't been debilitated. And now he's half machine and half man so he's lost a lot of the power in the Force and has lost a lot of feasibility to be more powerful than the Emperor."


Whats there to say he didn't regain his lost power throughout the years?

And "lost alot of power" could = to "losing alot of potential". Because the more potential = the more power". So vader merely lost alot of potential which limited his strength in the force, he didn't become weaker in the force seeing that he still was able to wtf pwn the emperors medical room and perform remarkable feats throughout his life.

Well that was said on the ESB AC. He has lost a lot of power, not he lost a lot of power. It was speaking in context of ESB.



That could be it, but then why does Lucas say "he's lost a lot of the power in the Force and has lost a lot of feasibility to be more powerful than the Emperor" and not just one of the other? Destroying some objects that reside within a medical room is nothing compared to LoE Anakin making a football stadium sized room collapse by simply yelling.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Well that was said on the ESB AC. He has lost a lot of power, not he lost a lot of power. It was speaking in context of ESB.



That could be it, but then why does Lucas say "he's lost a lot of the power in the Force and has lost a lot of feasibility to be more powerful than the Emperor" and not just one of the other? Destroying some objects that reside within a medical room is nothing compared to LoE Anakin making a football stadium sized room collapse by simply yelling. Ill respond to this later as im busy now.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ok so Dooku was hard pressed when sparring him, but still his superior. And Young Anakin was Dookus superior in Lightsaber dueling.
Agreed, my point is that GG would certainly put up a hell of a fight in this form as we see how dangerous he can be when healthy and the fact that he was mentioned in the cw cartoons to being the key to the war was to stop him.



I'm fairly certain it was mentioned elsewhere other than it is pretty much true his form is the best vs GG. But adding in the saber forms into the movies would either be to confusing for some or sort make the movie seem more "nerdy" to even casual sw fans if you follow my drift.


Only thing I will say about Mace is that I'm fairly certain (please correct me if im wrong) that GG was on some sort of ship when he was hit by the crush and had no room to even attempt to dodge it.



The only reason why this maybe true is because the only thing that survived from Grievous's original body was his organs so they could build anything from there since he had no limbs that needed to be built around. While Vader still had his upper thighs and part of his arms left as well as part of his torso and chest/neck area remaining they needed to build around that. Grievous was like 90% cyborg and Vader was more around 70%-80% cyborg.

Mace was helping a wounded Shaak Tii out the door or something and GG jumped in front of him and ignited all his lightsabers, then Mace just held out one hand crushed him, then kept on going.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Mace was helping a wounded Shaak Tii out the door or something and GG jumped in front of him and ignited all his lightsabers, then Mace just held out one hand crushed him, then kept on going.

hmm,then am i thinking about the next scene when he retreats?

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Mace was helping a wounded Shaak Tii out the door or something and GG jumped in front of him and ignited all his lightsabers, then Mace just held out one hand crushed him, then kept on going.
I remember it Elite Hunter's way. Grievous is on a ship and gets crushed as he flies away, then Mace goes inside and Shaak Ti says "Master Windu, I have failed you." or something to that extent.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJk1aip3pl8




Yes look at 3:42.

hm. Nevermind then. I guess I'm thinking of something else.

It's okay. We all make mistakes.

NO!

You make mistakes! I'm.. I'm... *breaks down sobbing*

Originally posted by darthsith19
Well that was said on the ESB AC. He has lost a lot of power, not he lost a lot of power. It was speaking in context of ESB.
Does it matter? Because the key question is WHEN did he lose alot of power? Its in revenge of the sith so i don't see how this eliminates the fact that he has regained his powers throughout the year.

Oh and just to add to that, having raw power alone is useless if you lack the skills and mastery to fully utilise the force,

Originally posted by darthsith19

That could be it, but then why does Lucas say "he's lost a lot of the power in the Force and has lost a lot of feasibility to be more powerful than the Emperor" and not just one of the other? Destroying some objects that reside within a medical room is nothing compared to LoE Anakin making a football stadium sized room collapse by simply yelling. Because losing potential IS losing power. And you forget that vader was in the suit for barely 2 minutes yet he still was able to crush an entire room. But do not forget that vader was in a small cramped room when he let out his rage. So of course you can't compare it to what he did in LOE.

But again even despite being in the suit, he was able to choke xizor millions of lightyears away in the bounty hunter wars.(Acstyles hinted this)

I mean its a bit confusing exactly what he lost in power and potential and what he made up with his better mastery of the force over the years.

The way i see it(and this is just my own speculation, so dnt start having a go at me to produce evidence) that the power of the Force comes from your midi-chlorian concentration. They measured Anakins in TPM from just a small blood sample. So loosing body parts should not effect this concentration. Otherwise if the mass of your body made a difference then Yoda, for example would be very weak.

So basically his Force powers should be the same. And if we look at Vaders Force powers over the years (including at the end of ROTS) theres certainly no eveidence of his Force powers having weakened. and there was never any mention or hint of that in the films.

However what could have been effected was his physical abilites. Jedis/Siths use the Force to give them their physical abilities i.e. jumping, leaping, moving fast and agile e.tc. But with Vader now when he calls on the Force to do this he will have to use his powers not just to move him around but his whole machinery as well. This will take extra use of his powers to do this in hand to hand combat.

But with his extra mastery of the force and lightsaber combat forms over the years who knows how much he might have made up in this respect. It must certainly help that his armour already has super human strength.

Also Lucas says that "he lost a lot of feasibilty to become more powrful than the Emporer", this to me shows he could still do it, but it wouldtake him a lot longer.

Neway thats just my theory. Let me know what you think.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Does it matter? Because the key question is WHEN did he lose alot of power? Its in revenge of the sith so i don't see how this eliminates the fact that he has regained his powers throughout the year.

That would be just fine if Lucas had stated "he lost a lot of power " but instead he said "he has lost a lot of power." which is in present context.


Agreed, but Lucas says power, not raw power.


So that means that Lucas has to say the same thing twice in the same sentence? Lol.

No, I didn't forget that. And the entire room didn't get crushed, watch again - only some of the medical apparatus gets crushed. If the script of novel say differently, it doesn't matter, because the movie overrides them.


Alright, but how good do you have to be to do that? We never see pre-suit Vader do anything like this but with TK he has done things that suited Vader has never surprassed (that I am aware of) that is collapsing the room in LoE. It doesn't matter though cause Lucas's word is final.

CW grievous was very powerful, able to take on numerous jedi at a time, even able to dodge a force push, believe it or not. Of course, vader could take on many jedi at a time also, though i'm not sure he could do it as good as grievous. (Grievous defeated five jedi at a time, and Ki-Adi-Mundi, Aayla Secura, and Shaak Ti were among them!)

Not sure how accurate that TV show was though...

Originally posted by skywalker833
CW grievous was very powerful, able to take on numerous jedi at a time, even able to dodge a force push, believe it or not. Of course, vader could take on many jedi at a time also, though i'm not sure he could do it as good as grievous. (Grievous defeated five jedi at a time, and Ki-Adi-Mundi, Aayla Secura, and Shaak Ti were among them!)

I think Ki-Adi-Mundi did note that those 5 jedi were all exhausted from battle at the time Greivous engaged them. Howevewr he also noted how surprised he was that anything could take on 5 Jedis at once exhausted or not..

But There seems to be a big gap in Jedi powers between most the Jedi Council Members and Obi-Wan, Mace, Anakin and Yoda. For example was what Greivous did any more impressive than Sidious taking out 3 Jedi Council members in 3 seconds??? I dnt think anyone would dispute that even Obi-Wan would put up at least a half decent fight against Sidious before getting owned by him.

I don't remember them being tired out, when did master mundi say this?

Originally posted by skywalker833
Not sure how accurate that TV show was though...

Its cannon I think, but some things like ForcePowers were greatly exagerated. A good example of this is Mace taking out more droids by himself with a couple of Force pushes than all the Jedis on Genosia(including Mace) could put together!

However when talking about Greivous vs. Jedis im pretty sure thats all cannon.

Originally posted by skywalker833
I don't remember them being tired out, when did master mundi say this?

When he reported to the Jedi Council about what happened with Greivous in the next chapter. they also talked about not holding back the chosen one, and decided to Knight him.

oh, now i remember. still, it would have been hard to beat all of them.

Originally posted by darthsith19
That would be just fine if Lucas had stated "he lost a lot of power " but instead he said "he has lost a lot of power." which is in present context.
Look at the word has lost, it was clearly in reference to the mustafar duel, tell me DS. Was he losing power in TESB if the quote was in reference to the present time? If he was i want to to substantiate HOW.
Originally posted by darthsith19

Agreed, but Lucas says power, not raw power Does not matter, what use is great power if you don't have the skills and mastery to properly command it?

I can have the greatest machine gun in the world but what use is it if i don't know how to operate it?

Originally posted by darthsith19

So that means that Lucas has to say the same thing twice in the same sentence? Lol. You still don't get it. The whole reason why anakin would have been the most powerful force user ever is due to the fact that he has the most potential which would mean he wields the most power. Losing potential IS losing power.

But i'd rather gideon clear this up for the benefit for the BOTH of us. Can agree do that?
Originally posted by darthsith19

No, I didn't forget that. And the entire room didn't get crushed, watch again - only some of the medical apparatus gets crushed. If the script of novel say differently, it doesn't matter, because the movie overrides them. Pay attention to the walls DS, they DID get crushed, and the background of the room was so dark that it is impossible to see the FULL extent of his attack. And so what if the novel says differently? We didn't see EVERY part of the room, hell we didn't even see the entire room in one shot.

Originally posted by darthsith19

Alright, but how good do you have to be to do that? We never see pre-suit Vader do anything like this but with TK he has done things that suited Vader has never surprassed (that I am aware of) that is collapsing the room in LoE. It doesn't matter though cause Lucas's word is final. Lol how good you have to do that? Then what is so great about nadd doing that to vodo? If it isn't so great, why the hell is people barking about how he attacked someone lightyears away?

Yes lucas words are final, but he didn't say he couldn't recover seeing that novels indicate that vader is progressing in the force as of his current state, hell even advent agreed to that.

Oh and to add to that, darth vader still could rip out a bridge into pieces, bring down a tree larger than the pillar dooku took down,choke some one halfway across the galaxy, grab his secret apprentice when he first met him(he was a jedi with a blue saber) and fling him around effortlessly like a ragdoll overpowering his force defences.

No, he isn't losing power still in ESB. He lost power when he got put into the suit. The quote says he has lost the power when he became half machine and half man but it isn't he lost power when becoming half machine, it's he has lost power. But it is speaking in terms of ESB, and saying he has lost power since before the incident. Key part of the quote putting it into context with ESB:
"And now he's half machine and half man so he's lost a lot of the power in the Force and has lost a lot of feasibility to be more powerful than the Emperor."


Lucas is talking about ESB and he says "now". now = ESB, because that's the movie he is talking about and it's the movie that is playing. He wouldn't say "and now" and be referring to "now" as the end of ROTS.



Exactly. Which is why Lucas wasn't talking about raw power. He was talking about their current power levels. If you don't know how to use the gun, then it isn't even included as part of your power because it is of no use to you.


Agreed. So he lost both power and potential. Therefore he would be weaker in ESB than in ROTS prior to the injuries.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmi7jlVeN4w

you're right, it is diffiult to see what all was crushed there, but the room is certainly smaller and far less damaged that the one that LoE Anakin destroyed, which completely collapsed.


I was asking, how great a feat. that was, but I guess you're right, if Nadd's spirit is able to do it then it can't be all great, unless Nadd's spirit > ROTS Anakin. The thing with Nadd's spirit doing it is, everybody assumes that if his spirit is that powerful then at his peak he was probably amongst the best. It is powerful for a spirit. But note that Nadd didn't choke Vodo, either, just cut off his connection to Kun which pushed him to the ground.




The bridge was in RODV, right? It wasn't cut of anything before that? The tree he knocked onto the Dark Woman was cut first. And I thought the Force Unleashed Video Game wasn't being taken into consideration until the novel came out, that's what everybody says whenever the Secret Apprentice is put into a thread.



Again, he was speaking in context of ESB, hence the "and now". There was also one time when Lucas said about Vader after falling into the lava (not an exact quote) "He was never again as strong as the Emperor. He was more like Maul or Dooku." Do you know that quote? I think it was in the Darth Vader Ultimate Guide.

A Maul or Dooku really??? are you saying even after 20-25 years of mastering the Dark Side he was never again as formidable as his ROTS self??

Anyway even Maul or Dooku would take out GG, so Vader still wins this.

No, cause he lost so much when he got cut in half. And that's what Lucas is saying.

But he originally had like twice the Force potential as Sidious if im not mistaken. So even if he lost half of that, he would still have a roughly similar potential level to Sidious. Possibly still even more than Sidious or any other Jedi.. Because his potential was just sooo ridiculously high in the first place.

"he's lost a lot of the power in the Force and has lost a lot of feasibility to be more powerful than the Emperor."

notice hes said has lost a lot of feasibility, to become that powerful, and not has lost all feasibility. Suggesting he still may in time be able to be able to surpass the Emporer.

Lol, are you guys talking about midichlorians?

Your midichlorian count won't drop just because you lose a limb or certain amount of body tissue.

Originally posted by darthsith19
No, he isn't losing power still in ESB. He lost power when he got put into the suit. The quote says he has lost the power when he became half machine and half man but it isn't he lost power when becoming half machine, it's he has lost power. But it is speaking in terms of ESB, and saying he has lost power since before the incident. Key part of the quote putting it into context with ESB:
"And now he's half machine and half man so he's lost a lot of the power in the Force and has lost a lot of feasibility to be more powerful than the Emperor."
Ok, but note that "Now" was in reference to his machine self and "has lost" was about him losing his powers in the mustafar incident.

Again how does that discount the fact that he didn't become stronger and regained his lost powers? Hell even sidious stated that vader was beginning to regain his lost powerful somewhere in RODV.(I can't find my damn novel to quote).


Originally posted by darthsith19

Lucas is talking about ESB and he says "now". now = ESB, because that's the movie he is talking about and it's the movie that is playing. He wouldn't say "and now" and be referring to "now" as the end of ROTS.
Ok

Originally posted by darthsith19

Exactly. Which is why Lucas wasn't talking about raw power. He was talking about their current power levels. If you don't know how to use the gun, then it isn't even included as part of your power because it is of no use to you.
But again you have to realise that ROTS vader doesn't exactly > TESB vader when the fact remains that while ROTS has a higher power level, he lacks the mastery and skills to fully utilise it whereas his later self mastered the force to an even higher degree.

And TESB vader could be more "powerful" in overall abilities such as mastery, skill and combat prowess. He surpasses anakin in ALL of these categories.

Hell caedus was superior to mara yet mara's mastery, skill and combat prowess took him down.
Originally posted by darthsith19

Agreed. So he lost both power and potential. Therefore he would be weaker in ESB than in ROTS prior to the injuries. No, again you have failed to prove that he couldn't have regained his powers at all.




Originally posted by darthsith19

you're right, it is diffiult to see what all was crushed there, but the room is certainly smaller and far less damaged that the one that LoE Anakin destroyed, which completely collapsed. Simply because he was put in an small room, and he JUST recovered from his severe injuries so how exactly is he suppose to fully command the force?

Originally posted by darthsith19

I was asking, how great a feat. that was, but I guess you're right, if Nadd's spirit is able to do it then it can't be all great, unless Nadd's spirit > ROTS Anakin. The thing with Nadd's spirit doing it is, everybody assumes that if his spirit is that powerful then at his peak he was probably amongst the best. It is powerful for a spirit. But note that Nadd didn't choke Vodo, either, just cut off his connection to Kun which pushed him to the ground. Please DS i remember you rambling the nadd is greater than vader simply because he pushed nadd from across the galaxy, don't try to change your words now. It IS a great feat, nadd even as a spirit was extremely powerful and how many force users other than palpatine, nadd and vader could attacke opponents lightyears away?

Firstly i'm going by YOUR logic, you said PT anakin > vader simply because he brought down a larger area, and since vader didn't do that feat therefore anakin > him, now i'm bringing up the issue where vader has done things anakin has never done, and you try to downplay them.(I seriously mean it).

Ever feat listed for vader, you try to downplay them, discredit/refute etc.

Can't you accept being wrong for once?





Originally posted by darthsith19

The bridge was in RODV, right? It wasn't cut of anything before that? The tree he knocked onto the Dark Woman was cut first. And I thought the Force Unleashed Video Game wasn't being taken into consideration until the novel came out, that's what everybody says whenever the Secret Apprentice is put into a thread. The bridge wasn't cut and so what if the tree was cut? It was merely a minor scar and it wouldn't matter as vader still effortlessly crushed its trunk, the result would STILL be the same EVEN if the tree wasn't cut.


Originally posted by darthsith19

Again, he was speaking in context of ESB, hence the "and now".
"Now" was in reference to him being more machine than man, not his power level. Again even that can not disprove the fact that vader grew stronger throughout the 19 years. Hell if you think he didn't become any stronger then i think there is something really wrong with you.
Originally posted by darthsith19

There was also one time when Lucas said about Vader after falling into the lava (not an exact quote) "He was never again as strong as the Emperor. He was more like Maul or Dooku." Do you know that quote? I think it was in the Darth Vader Ultimate Guide. Uh thats fact period, vader is 80% of sidious power level, so if he had lost alot of power, what was his % of power compared to that of sidious at first? 90%? 100% 120%? If he was more powerful than sidious, why didn't sidious admit it?

Why did sidious say the boy is powerful, potentially more powerful than my self? if anakin was so MUCH MORE powerful than vader?

Funny how lucas only mentions vader losing the potential to become more powerful than sidious and not make any mention of him losing power in THIS quote.

"However, after all of his limbs were severed and he was extremely burned on Mustafar he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Anakin was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful.

THIS is backed up by RODV according to what i recall

The Emperor, having gone out of his way to keep Vader alive, took an alternative viewpoint. Though it was true to say that he had not bargained for an apprentice that was "more machine than man", Palpatine was of the opinion that most of the limitations on Vader's potential power were not physical but psychological. He believed that, were Vader to fully confront his choices and disappointments to completely shake himself out of his despair, he would have been able to reawaken the incredible power within him.

Now look at the next sentence in bold

Yet, while Vader made progress in this regard, he was never fully able to accept who, and what, he had become.

This alone states that he has been regaining his powers OVER THE YEARS.

Darth Vader is too slow to block all four of grievous's blades. it's a fact. Grievous can dodge force pushes, take on five jedi simultaneously, and strike 20 times per second. (That was as high as he reached until obi1 couldn't block anymore and went on the offensive.)

Originally posted by Master_Starbuck
Lol, are you guys talking about midichlorians?

Your midichlorian count won't drop just because you lose a limb or certain amount of body tissue.

Yeah thats what I thought as well

Originally posted by Ivalice
Uh thats fact period, vader is 80% of sidious power level, so if he had lost alot of power, what was his % of power compared to that of sidious at first? 90%? 100% 120%? If he was more powerful than sidious, why didn't sidious admit it?



Exactly.. If OT trilogy Vader was never as powerful as ROTS Anakin, and OT trilogy Vader was 80% as powerful than the Emporer, and I think DarthSith is saying OT Vader is in the same league as Count Dooku, who was no match for ROTS Anakin... then that would make ROTS Anakin At Least 90% of Sidious in power. So pretty much as powerful as him.

In that case if Obi-Wan wasnt powerful enough to fight Sidious then he shuldnt have been powerful enough to fight Anakin either really.. So somethings not making sense here.

Yes, now was referring to his machine self from ESB. If I said "now we are debating" I wouldn't be talking about a debate from 2006, I would be talking about now.


Maybe it was just him getting used to the suit, and after he got used to the suit he stayed the same. Also even if he was getting stronger that doesn't mean by ESB he was stronger than his ROTS self.


ROTS Vader hadn;t reached his full power, no, but I don't consider raw power to be the same as the power they are currently at, because raw power doesn't help you at all. Anakin had mastered the power that he did currently have. That raw power isn't part of his current level of power, just what he can be in the future.


How were his combat prowess and skill better? Skill at what, fighting? ROTS Anakin / vader had been figjhting for 3 years straight in the Clone Wars and had fought numerous adversaries such as Durge, Asajj, Dooku, and oether Dark Acolytes in the video game The New Droid Army, and he had been fighting droids and such and was in such good shape. Mace says that ROTS Anakin might be the strongest Jedi ever "and his power is still growing." On the other hand, Lucas says that after becoming a machine, Vader is like Dooku or Maul.


All I know is Lucas says "now (as in ESB) Vader is half amchine and half man so he's lost a lot of power."


Ok. So then what relevence does the medical center scene play in this debate?


I may have been debating that Nadd was above Vader, but I wasn't debating that Nadd's spirit was above Vader. It is a great feat - for somebody who is merely a spirit. idk how many others could do it, but I would imagine that if a spirit could do it at least a few other people could.


Actually, I originally said that PT Anakin / Vader > OT Vader because of the Lucas quote.



yes, I accept them, but I don't think a feat. that a spirit can do is all great. Maybe good though.


if the result would have been the same, then why did vader cut the tree at all? And you can't tell how far into the tree the lightsaber cut.


Yes, but it is talking about him being machine now, in ESB, Lucas didn't say "and now, when he became half machine and half man" he jsut said "and now he's half machine and half man". Since he is talking about ESB there is no reason to assume he was talking about ROTS unless he states so, the statement "in ESB he's half machine and half man so ue's lost a lot of power." works. I don't see any evidence that he was referring to another film when he said "now".


Lucas says he was as strong as Sidious in ROTS. "He was never again as strong as the Emperor."


1. I never said he was so much more powerful.
2. Lucas > Sidious, who is a falliable, in-universe character.



Okay. I will concede that he did indeed gain power throughout the years. But the last quote also says that vader "was never fully able to accept who, and what, he had become." And Sidious said he would have to "fully confront his choices and disappointments to completely shake himself out of his despair". So that means that while he may have made progress, he never gained all his power back.









Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Exactly.. If OT trilogy Vader was never as powerful as ROTS Anakin, and OT trilogy Vader was 80% as powerful than the Emporer, and I think DarthSith is saying OT Vader is in the same league as Count Dooku, who was no match for ROTS Anakin... then that would make ROTS Anakin At Least 90% of Sidious in power. So pretty much as powerful as him.

In that case if Obi-Wan wasnt powerful enough to fight Sidious then he shuldnt have been powerful enough to fight Anakin either really.. So somethings not making sense here.
That's what Lucas says. After becoming injured, "Anakin is never again as strong as the Emperor." it dooesn't make sense to me, either, than Anakin would be equal to Sidious but that is what Lucas says. idk. But Kenobi was powerful enough to fight Anakin cause he trained him and knew his moves and weaknesses. And yeah to me I would say that ROTS Anakin is like 90% of Sidious. And that makes sense because Kenobi isn't strong enough to fight Sidious, but noone ever said he wasn't strong enough to fight someone 90% of Sidious. 90% and 100% aren't the same. That's like saying someone who can bench 700 lbs. and someone who can bench 630 lbs.are the same. They're not.

Originally posted by darthsith19


That's what Lucas says. After becoming injured, "Anakin is never again as strong as the Emperor." it dooesn't make sense to me, either, than Anakin would be equal to Sidious but that is what Lucas says. idk. But Kenobi was powerful enough to fight Anakin cause he trained him and knew his moves and weaknesses. And yeah to me I would say that ROTS Anakin is like 90% of Sidious. And that makes sense because Kenobi isn't strong enough to fight Sidious, but noone ever said he wasn't strong enough to fight someone 90% of Sidious. 90% and 100% aren't the same. That's like saying someone who can bench 700 lbs. and someone who can bench 630 lbs.are the same. They're not.

ur rite 90% is not the same as 100% but it is very close. Powerful enough to possibly have defeated him in ROTS if he remained a Jedi.
well at least your making sense out of Lucas's statements. but still it seems like from the statements uv posted that Lucas sed that Anakin in ROTS was already as powerful as Sidious. From Sidious level down to Dooku level... no wunder he hates Obi-Wan so much. Id hate him too! Lol!

I think its also worth noting that Vader wasnt very old even in the OT.. just like in his 40's I think... So had he lived another 20 years he could have still eventually surpassed Sidious in Power. Remember your quote said "he lost a lot of feasibility to become more powerful than the Emporer.." not all feasibility, so there was still hope of that.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, now was referring to his machine self from ESB. If I said "now we are debating" I wouldn't be talking about a debate from 2006, I would be talking about now.


Maybe it was just him getting used to the suit, and after he got used to the suit he stayed the same. Also even if he was getting stronger that doesn't mean by ESB he was stronger than his ROTS self.


ROTS Vader hadn;t reached his full power, no, but I don't consider raw power to be the same as the power they are currently at, because raw power doesn't help you at all. Anakin had mastered the power that he did currently have. That raw power isn't part of his current level of power, just what he can be in the future.


How were his combat prowess and skill better? Skill at what, fighting? ROTS Anakin / vader had been figjhting for 3 years straight in the Clone Wars and had fought numerous adversaries such as Durge, Asajj, Dooku, and oether Dark Acolytes in the video game The New Droid Army, and he had been fighting droids and such and was in such good shape. Mace says that ROTS Anakin might be the strongest Jedi ever "and his power is still growing." On the other hand, Lucas says that after becoming a machine, Vader is like Dooku or Maul.


All I know is Lucas says "now (as in ESB) Vader is half amchine and half man so he's lost a lot of power."


Ok. So then what relevence does the medical center scene play in this debate?


I may have been debating that Nadd was above Vader, but I wasn't debating that Nadd's spirit was above Vader. It is a great feat - for somebody who is merely a spirit. idk how many others could do it, but I would imagine that if a spirit could do it at least a few other people could.


Actually, I originally said that PT Anakin / Vader > OT Vader because of the Lucas quote.



yes, I accept them, but I don't think a feat. that a spirit can do is all great. Maybe good though.


if the result would have been the same, then why did vader cut the tree at all? And you can't tell how far into the tree the lightsaber cut.


Yes, but it is talking about him being machine now, in ESB, Lucas didn't say "and now, when he became half machine and half man" he jsut said "and now he's half machine and half man". Since he is talking about ESB there is no reason to assume he was talking about ROTS unless he states so, the statement "in ESB he's half machine and half man so ue's lost a lot of power." works. I don't see any evidence that he was referring to another film when he said "now".


Lucas says he was as strong as Sidious in ROTS. "He was never again as strong as the Emperor."


1. I never said he was so much more powerful.
2. Lucas > Sidious, who is a falliable, in-universe character.



Okay. I will concede that he did indeed gain power throughout the years. But the last quote also says that vader "was never fully able to accept who, and what, he had become." And Sidious said he would have to "fully confront his choices and disappointments to completely shake himself out of his despair". So that means that while he may have made progress, he never gained all his power back.










That's what Lucas says. After becoming injured, "Anakin is never again as strong as the Emperor." it dooesn't make sense to me, either, than Anakin would be equal to Sidious but that is what Lucas says. idk. But Kenobi was powerful enough to fight Anakin cause he trained him and knew his moves and weaknesses. And yeah to me I would say that ROTS Anakin is like 90% of Sidious. And that makes sense because Kenobi isn't strong enough to fight Sidious, but noone ever said he wasn't strong enough to fight someone 90% of Sidious. 90% and 100% aren't the same. That's like saying someone who can bench 700 lbs. and someone who can bench 630 lbs.are the same. They're not. Well I'm not in the mood to argue at the moment and i will humbly give you the win for now. Congratulations

DarthSith wants you permabanned.

Now. FIGHT!

Wow, Ivalice has shown some real improvement on the temper front. A pig just flew past. That's odd.....

Why is there a giant rock heading towards earth?

OH NO!! IVALICE YOU BAS......

Alright fair enough, and for the record, I do think that OT Vader is very close to ROTS Anakin/Vader.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Except that Grevious can move Very Fast. Much faster than jedi master Kenobi, and almost certainly faster than Vader. It depends on the arena then, to see if GG can get to Vader fast enough. If he can then Vader loses. Just.

Force-barrier: a defensive Force technique taught to all Jedi and Sith which protects the erector from Force attacks(can be overwhelmed by a much stronger Force-user attack).

Only Force-sensitives can use it. Grievous IS fast but cannot erect a Force-barrier. Vader would squash him before he could crawl to his unicycular transport.

There IS a chance that Vader gets cocky and actually engages in lightsaber combat. The outcome is the same; dead cyborg roadkill.
There is about a 1.2% chance of a Grievous victory.

Originally posted by Darth Maliko
Force-barrier: a defensive Force technique taught to all Jedi and Sith which protects the erector from Force attacks(can be overwhelmed by a much stronger Force-user attack).

Only Force-sensitives can use it. Grievous IS fast but cannot erect a Force-barrier. Vader would squash him before he could crawl to his unicycular transport.


If it were that easy to defeat Grievious than he would have been killed early in the clone wars.


Grievous certainly has more than 1.2% of victory though he would most likely lose.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
If it were that easy to defeat Grievious than he would have been killed early in the clone wars.

Grievous certainly has more than 1.2% of victory though he would most likely lose.

Grievous was a coward. He ran when the odds were DEFINITELY not in his favor. His chances are slim against Vader.

I underestimated the actual percentage.
I'd honestly say: 15% at most; that's my final offer.

Originally posted by Darth Maliko
Grievous was a coward. He ran when the odds were DEFINITELY not in his favor. His chances are slim against Vader.

I underestimated the actual percentage.
I'd honestly say: 15% at most; that's my final offer.

are you crazy.
Vader is too slow to block grievous's 20 strikes per second, as i've said before. Vader is good with the force but c'mon! This is CW grievous. He can dodge the force!

Originally posted by Darth Maliko
Grievous was a coward. He ran when the odds were DEFINITELY not in his favor. His chances are slim against Vader.

I underestimated the actual percentage.
I'd honestly say: 15% at most; that's my final offer.
He isn't a coward. He ran because the odds were against him, as anybody of intelligence would have done in such a situation. Dooku also told him (in LoE) that he should run from battle if he doesn't have the advantages of fear and surprise (I think it was surprise) on his side. If Vader engages him in lightsaber combat I would actually give Grievous the edge. There was a thread between ROTS Anakin and EU Grievous, sabers only, and most people thought that it was a toss-up so. Remember, this is EU Grievous, not ROTS Grievous. EU Grievous is a little bit stronger.

Originally posted by skywalker833
are you crazy.
Vader is too slow to block grievous's 20 strikes per second, as i've said before. Vader is good with the force but c'mon! This is CW grievous. He can dodge the force! LOL PROVE that he can dodge a telekenetic grip like attack.

While i agree with DS that GG wins in sabers, vader utterly destroyes GG in the force.

Btw, the ones who voted that GG would win if it was a force fight are very stupid and very incompentant.

Even in a Lightsaber fight OT Vader is sed to be in the same league as Count Dooku or Darth Maul.. and in Clone Wars cartoons Dooku had the edge over GG in lightsaber dueling.. So Darth Vader should as well.

And with the Force he culdnt dodge Mace's Force attack.. didnt seem like he could even react in time to aviod Mace's Force Attack. And I dnt remember anyone ever arguing that Mace has better force powers than OT Vader.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Even in a Lightsaber fight OT Vader is sed to be in the same league as Count Dooku or Darth Maul.. and in Clone Wars cartoons Dooku had the edge over GG in lightsaber dueling.. So Darth Vader should as well.

Where does it say that his saber skills are on Dooku and Maul's level? the quote I had didn't specify that it was in saber skills.

Originally posted by skywalker833
are you crazy.
Vader is too slow to block grievous's 20 strikes per second, as i've said before. Vader is good with the force but c'mon! This is CW grievous. He can dodge the force!

Some would say so.
Don't underestimate the true power of the Force.
I'm probably overly critical in this, so I'll not post much here.
I try not to be bias, but I prefer Vader to the General.
I don't know much of EU Grievous(how much is there of GG in "Labyrinth of Evil"? because I have it just ain't got to it yet), though I have extended knowledge of Vader. Due to my lack of information, I give Grievous a final rating.
40%(judging by the dodging Force and by the supposedly bad-ass EU Grievous)
It does make sense to retreat when you CAN'T win, but he would not have surprise or intimidation on his side.
I retract my statement that Grievous was a coward.
There; are you happy?

sure, and, Grievous is in LoE quite a bit. Though people like Mace, Anakin, and Kenobi are in it more.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Where does it say that his saber skills are on Dooku and Maul's level? the quote I had didn't specify that it was in saber skills.

sorry i just assumed that.. i guess Lucas meant overall powers.. but Id be quite surprised if Vaders Lightsaber skills were below Dooku/Mauls level

Originally posted by darthsith19
sure, and, Grievous is in LoE quite a bit. Though people like Mace, Anakin, and Kenobi are in it more.

Thanks, man.

Originally posted by Darth Maliko
I retract my statement that Grievous was a coward.
There; are you happy?

Actually Lucas says this himself in ROTS commentary.. that Greivous was more the cunning villain. He was the sleezy cowardly type. This is what he wanted with GG. He wanted him to be a good fighter, but not some super powerful villain.. we already had that with Maul, Dooku, Vader, Sidious.