Darth vader vs naga sadow
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darthsith19
Which Vader is this? I say Naga's too unknown to make an accurate decision.
Gideon
Originally posted by darthsith19
Which Vader is this? I say Naga's too unknown to make an accurate decision.
I'm certain that someone is going to disagree, since Naga Sadow is one of the more prominent Ancient Sith, but the fact remains that, despite his amazing proficiency as an alchemist, Sadow's displays of great Force power have been dependent on Sith technology and arcana, as well as use of Sith magic, which requires no effort to use.
Blax_Hydralisk
I suppose he can get lucky with a brick and knock out Vader's respiratory system. So I say he wins once.
Vader 9/10
Ivalice
Originally posted by darthsith19
Which Vader is this? I say Naga's too unknown to make an accurate decision. OT vader.
Blax_Hydralisk
No chance, Mr.Sado has.
Gideon
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
I suppose he can get lucky with a brick and knock out Vader's respiratory system. So I say he wins once.
Vader 9/10
Wouldn't that be something? Or he'd hit the button that activates the goggle-wiper-function, temporarily blinding Vader and leaving him vulnerable, as Sadow summons all of his mighty powers and hurls two bricks at Vader.
Ivalice
Originally posted by Gideon
Wouldn't that be something? Or he'd hit the button that activates the goggle-wiper-function, temporarily blinding Vader and leaving him vulnerable, as Sadow summons all of his mighty powers and hurls two bricks at Vader. LOL
Blax_Hydralisk
crylaugh
I'm trying to imagine Vader stumbling around with some tiny little windshield wipers moving and little straws spraying windshield cleaner on his eye pieces...
mmm Note to self, find the scan of the brick being hurled and add a caption of "ULTIMATE POOOWAAAHHHHHH" to the bottom.mmm
Gideon
Or "construction workers beware".
Blax_Hydralisk
Shit, Janus is on!
Scatter!
Gideon
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Shit, Janus is on!
Scatter!
Scatter? You fool. Only now, at the end, do you understand... that I'm using the Quey'tek technique, making me utterly invisible.
Blax_Hydralisk
...
Okay. What about the ****ing rest of us?
Well, I suppose I could probably outrun Ivalice. I am black, pretty sure there's some kenyan in there somewhere...
Janus Marius
Fear, foo!
Sadow uses amulet blasts. Vader dies.
Gideon
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
...
Okay. What about the ****ing rest of us?
Well, I suppose I could probably outrun Ivalice. I am black, pretty sure there's some kenyan in there somewhere...
Well, being black, aren't you immune to online thrashings?
Blax_Hydralisk
Usually it's Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Sundays. But with me being only partly black that only works on Sundays
Curse my great great grandmother for not keeping herself outta that Irish bastards pants!
Gideon
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
Only on Sundays.
Well, being black, can't you use your Black-powers to change the date?
Janus Marius
I sense a disturbance in the forums...
Blax_Hydralisk
My black powers only work in liberal states, on the job sites, and in Presidential elections.
Janus Marius
http://i27.tinypic.com/308v96g.jpg
Darth Sexy
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Exar Kun become uber powerful by learning Sadow's teachings? That would include that badass sith spell. Sadow is more powerful than he is given credit for..
Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Exar Kun become uber powerful by learning Sadow's teachings? That would include that badass sith spell. Sadow is more powerful than he is given credit for..
Sadow is very powerful. But being a remarkable repository of dark side knowledge doesn't necessarily make one a being of superior ability.
Janus Marius
Even though multiple Force users have been lauded as potential versus match winners because of their access and mastery of Force knowledge. That statement does not make sense.
Gideon
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Even though multiple Force users have been lauded as potential versus match winners because of their access and mastery of Force knowledge. That statement does not make sense.
No one said that prodigious knowledge of the Force is anything to sneeze at, but it doesn't necessarily make one superior. For example, Master Yoda has had eight centuries of experience, formal training, and time spent mastering the Force. Yet it is the common consensus that he is no match for present day Luke Skywalker, who has had about forty years of indoctrination in the Force from scattered and remote sources, due to the Jedi Purge.
Janus Marius
True, skill and raw power do come into play. But depending on the gap in knowledge and the gap in power, etc., superior knowledge can win the day. Luke may be the exception (considering he is perhaps the strongest Force user in SW media), but other force users can be overcome through superior knowledge if they lack the raw skill and raw power to compensate. Luke doesn't have to learn anything because he can HAX the Force and do whatever he wants.
Gideon
Originally posted by Janus Marius
True, skill and raw power do come into play. But depending on the gap in knowledge and the gap in power, etc., superior knowledge can win the day. Luke may be the exception (considering he is perhaps the strongest Force user in SW media), but other force users can be overcome through superior knowledge if they lack the raw skill and raw power to compensate. Luke doesn't have to learn anything because he can HAX the Force and do whatever he wants.
Certainly. The disparity between characters in all categories has to be taken into consideration.
Janus Marius
I agree. In retrospect, I was hinting more at the fact that previous versus matches had been concluded solely on knowledge disparity when physical advantages were inconclusive.
Gideon
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I agree. In retrospect, I was hinting more at the fact that previous versus matches had been concluded solely on knowledge disparity when physical advantages were inconclusive.
That would make sense. If two combatants possess similar raw ability, experience, et cetera, but one had a clear advantage in terms of Force knowledge and mastery, it would only be logical to assume that that person would emerge victorious.
Janus Marius
In that case, Sadow wins. Booyah!
Gideon
Originally posted by Janus Marius
In that case, Sadow wins. Booyah!
If it were determined that Sadow too closely rivals Vader in every other category; that would require a bit more persuasion and evidence. As has been noted, his greatest demonstration of power without the assistance of Force-enhancing technology and Sith arcana is hurling a single brick.
Janus Marius
And his legacy includes inducing star explosions, massive illusions which fought on multiple planets, tons of dark side relics he made, including the amulets which can clearly frag about anything in existance including powerful sith spirits....
Again, if Vader and Sadow's stack up in saber combat and physical prowess is deemed inconclusive (Which it is), then by your own admission knowledge must be the factor used. Sadow wins in knowledge and prestige.
Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Gideon
As has been noted, his greatest demonstration of power without the assistance of Force-enhancing technology and Sith arcana is hurling a single brick.
*cough* 131
Janus Marius
Who cares? Sadow isn't going to go into battle naked and without his toys. If he did, we couldn't substantiate his powers without them, so the fight would be moot.
Sadow with his amulets is considerably powerful.
Blax_Hydralisk
So uh... does that mean he gets his ship too?
Janus Marius
If he can fit it in the pokeball.
Nah, basically the amulets are always present in the comics when he's shown, so they cannot be divorced from any representations of power he shows. You can note that these same amulets amplify Exar Kun's hatred and thus making him stronger, but this doesn't in any way take away from Sadow. It just adds to his power. Vader doesn't have this benefit, and he can't block man-sized plus obliterating blasts with his iron fist.
Gideon
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Who cares?
We do. Because, in the past, such notations have eluded those who would embellish and fellate the Ancient Sith; dependency on Force enhancing arcana to perform incredibly powerful feats of power is a clear sign that natural ability is not enough.
We can substantiate his powers relatively well. Without use of Sith arcana, he goes from orchestrating interstellar devastation to hurling a single brick; a clear sign of intense lack of natural ability.
No one denied that he isn't, but that is the expression: with his amulets. Obviously, in raw power, he does not compete with Vader at all.
Janus Marius
Again, read above. Having aiding amulets is smart, not a dependency. Dependency would be having the amulets removed and being incapable of basic or impressive Force feats. There's no precedent for this. If you feel the ancient Sith are "weaker" for having the Force equivalent of HGH, well... so what? They have it. It applies. You can't substantiate them without it, nor can you even begin to point out just how much it aids their every action, so leave it lie, Escape.
No, you can't. When he hurls a brick, the amulet sparks as the amulets do every single time the wielders use the Force:
http://i26.tinypic.com/2prwljk.jpg
So yeah, having amplifying artifacts present at all times does NOT quantify him as an inferior Force user. If anything, it means he's smart and powered up, and has a natural advantage in combat over someone who's just using the Force naturally. You can't clearly indicate when Sadow's abilities are aided, boosted, or otherwise supplemented by the amulet in the source material. So how can you conclude he's a wuss without them? You can't. We've been through this before.
Substantiate this using source materials.
Oh wait, you can't.
Allankles
Vader takes Sadow, with a few difficulties. The little we've seen of Sadow in combat doesn't at all flutter the ancient Sith. Illusions and causing Nova's with his ship doesn't at all translate to superior combat prowess (which Vader possesses in abundance).
Plenty of evidence on Vader's combat abilities, very little on Sadow's. Vader should win.
Janus Marius
... Right. So absence of overwhelming combat prowess = decisive victory for the villain who is the main character upon which the series is founded?
That's logic for you.
Sadow does amulet blast. Vader blocks it with having more books, movies, and comics about him.
Allankles
Originally posted by Janus Marius
... Right. So absence of overwhelming combat prowess = decisive victory for the villain who is the main character upon which the series is founded?
That's logic for you.
Sadow does amulet blast. Vader blocks it with having more books, movies, and comics about him.
Vader blocks it by demonstrating that he has a very strong grasp of the Jedi arts as they relate to combat. It has nothing to do with the frequency of his appearances in the SW mythos. Sadow's illusions are not combat effective in a close combat fight.
Causing novas with his ship? Not combat effective, can't be applied in this situation. The one time we see him fight, he was nowhere near as impressive as Vader.
Now Sadow was no doubt powerful and knowledgable in the sith arts, but Vader seems to have him beat when it comes to the martial aspects of those arts.
Gideon
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Again, read above. Having aiding amulets is smart, not a dependency. Dependency would be having the amulets removed and being incapable of basic or impressive Force feats. There's no precedent for this. If you feel the ancient Sith are "weaker" for having the Force equivalent of HGH, well... so what? They have it. It applies. You can't substantiate them without it, nor can you even begin to point out just how much it aids their every action, so leave it lie, Escape.
I feel that the Ancient Sith are "weaker" because subsequent Sith Lords, such as Darth Nihilus and Darth Sidious, were able to use the Force on a greater scale, despite the fact that neither of them relied or made use of Sith magic or Force enhancing arcana. They performed such feats based on natural ability, and managed to eclipse the feats and powers of those who made use of much more than natural ability. Likewise, no one denied that Sadow's reliance on "aiding amulets" is anything but smart, but it does not indicate that Sadow is more powerful than Vader.
Are you serious? Sadow relied on his amulets to hurl a single brick? That is beyond ridiculous. And "a natural advantage in combat over someone who's just using the Force naturally"? Right, either of the two previously mentioned Sith Lords -- who rely singularly on natural ability -- would consume Sadow, swallow him entirely, and then shit him out into the nearest, cheapest toilet on whatever planet they happen to be fighting on. That Sadow always has them on and they "spark" whenever he uses the Force would be an excellent indicator that they have an enhancing effect on him all the time.
Actually, I can. Vader is still considered eight-tenths of the Emperor's own strength and, according to the Visual Dictionary, maintains an incredibly high amount of midichlorians. That he demonstrates feats well in excess of Sadow's own (minus Sadow's opulent warship), even when Sadow is being naturally aided by Force enhancing arcana, flat out nails the coffin shut on the delusion that the alchemist is somehow on par -- much less superior -- to Vader in raw ability.
Your move, Janus.
Blax_Hydralisk
... that still isn't really proof that he could block it with his hand.
Janus Marius
Originally posted by Allankles
Vader blocks it by demonstrating that he has a very strong grasp of the Jedi arts as they relate to combat. It has nothing to do with the frequency of his appearances in the SW mythos. Sadow's illusions are not combat effective in a close combat fight.
Causing novas with his ship? Not combat effective, can't be applied in this situation. The one time we see him fight, he was nowhere near as impressive as Vader.
Now Sadow was no doubt powerful and knowledgable in the sith arts, but Vader seems to have him beat when it comes to the martial aspects of those arts.
You should learn to read. Perhaps pictures will help.
http://i25.tinypic.com/1eb5zl.jpg
Gideon
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
... that still isn't really proof that he could block it with his hand.
Not that this is especially relevant, but Luke Skywalker's power was enough that he was able to absorb blasts from an AT-AT as of Dark Empire. Don't see why it's entirely out of question for Vader, who is proficient in the art of absorbing energy; out of curiosity, how do the amulets do against Force users?
But, back on topic, I could just as easily say that Vader might, y'know, hurl his lightsaber at Sadow the second the fight begins and decapitates him.
Edit: I just found out one of Vader's guantlets contains on of Kaan's invincible Sith amulets. We're gonna have to continue this tomorrow, folks. Good night.
Janus Marius
Firstly, Sadow's massive cross-galaxy illusions, Sith alchemy, and star-destroying dark-side ship rank pretty high in force creations and powers throughout the series. Later Sith apparently don't use the same amulets, but they may rely on other artifacts and most certainly they build on the works of Ragnos, Sadow, and other sith lords for sure.
Vader most certainly does not compare to even an amulet aided Sadow.
1. So what if they're on all the time? That means he's throwing around more power. Force users can survive quite a bit of beatings before they stumble or knock out. In combat while forcing Ludo Kressh out of the chamber and eventually down the stairs of the crypt, Sadow casually ripped out head-sized bricks and blasted Ludo in the scalp enough to make him fall down on his ass. That's a lot better than Vader throwing office chairs and printers at Luke, especially when he's in combat.
It's all win-win, really. Who cares if it always works. It always works. It enhances his powers, and he can do all sorts of neat shit with it. The amulet blasts alone are a carte blanche to win most up-close fights, the illusions, enhanced force strength (Ludo crushes a statue using these same amulets and physically breaks a sword capable of piercing a Hutt's durable flesh and furthermore holding up to lightsaber sparring), etc., etc. The rest is just icing. What is Vader going to do? Throw chairs? Take apart a bridge?
Percentile figure taken out of context + personal biased opinion of a character's relative power which ignores actual source material = baseless assertion. Congrats! You've proved nothing!
Lightsnake
Just a note: Vader also has a Sith amulet beneath his right glove (Source: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties)
Janus Marius
How can we define its powers though?
Blax_Hydralisk
Originally posted by Gideon
Not that this is especially relevant, but Luke Skywalker's power was enough that he was able to absorb blasts from an AT-AT as of Dark Empire. Don't see why it's entirely out of question for Vader, who is proficient in the art of absorbing energy; out of curiosity, how do the amulets do against Force users?
But, back on topic, I could just as easily say that Vader might, y'know, hurl his lightsaber at Sadow the second the fight begins and decapitates him.
Edit: I just found out one of Vader's guantlets contains on of Kaan's invincible Sith amulets. We're gonna have to continue this tomorrow, folks. Good night.
That post was aimed at Allankles. His reasoning for Vader being able to do it was because of his "knowledge" in the force... I know that wasn't his literal point. But still.
Do you think Corran Horn could possibly absorb an amulet blast? Isn't energy absorption one of his special talents (A ridiculous one)?
Allankles
Originally posted by Janus Marius
You should learn to read. Perhaps pictures will help.
http://i25.tinypic.com/1eb5zl.jpg
Strange that these Sith never used such attacks on force users. And that's Exar Kun. Why didn't Sadow blast Ludo Kressh? All he could do was hurl a brick. This doesn't prove anything.
I don't see how you can compare those creatures to the chosen one , who - as Vader - had grown stronger in the dark side of the force. Those creatures are defenseless, I don't think Vader is (he has the dark side).
Lightsnake
Originally posted by Janus Marius
How can we define its powers though?
It's an Ancient Sith Amulet....shouldn't that be enough to clarify its power?
Janus Marius
I've never seen anything to indicate that it's an ancient Sith amulet, much less one exactly like or similar to the ones used in GAofS. For this to be excepted, we need to know more.
Strange that Sidious never used force drain on Yoda, or that Yoda didn't just crush Sidious' windpipe. Strange that Traya didn't just butcher the Exile using her superior powers with TK, or that Luke Skywalker doesn't just use a lightside power to cut Caedus off from the Force like they did to Ulic. Strange stuff doesn't happen, but that doesn't mean it couldn't. You don't argue from absence as proof of absence. It's nonsensical.
Considering you didn't even directly address my post, show any knowledge of the source material, and used italics for 'Chosen One', I think I'm wasting my time with you.
Lightsnake
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I've never seen anything to indicate that it's an ancient Sith amulet, much less one exactly like or similar to the ones used in GAofS. For this to be excepted, we need to know more.
IIRC, it's described as an ancient Sith amulet that Palpatine gives him.
Basically, it's Abel's explanation for why the Glove of Darth Vader is such a powerful artifact, a neat little retcon
Allankles
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Strange that Sidious never used force drain on Yoda, or that Yoda didn't just crush Sidious' windpipe. Strange that Traya didn't just butcher the Exile using her superior powers with TK, or that Luke Skywalker doesn't just use a lightside power to cut Caedus off from the Force like they did to Ulic. Strange stuff doesn't happen, but that doesn't mean it couldn't. You don't argue from absence as proof of absence. It's nonsensical.
How do you know that the technique Sidious used on Byss is the same as what Kreia used on the Jedi Masters? Which superior powers in tele kinesis? I can't remember Kreia ever showing TK except when she was using the 3 lightsaber on Malachor 5. A wall of light technique would be useful on Caedus, but that would be anti-climatic.
Way to miss the point entirely though. Kreia has used potent force powers on force sensitives in close quaters combat. Luke has done the same. Sidious has done the same. Sadow hasn't - which brings us back to the original premise.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Considering you didn't even directly address my post, show any knowledge of the source material, and used italics for 'Chosen One', I think I'm wasting my time with you.
I directly addressed your post and I am aware that you're trying to hype Sadow off of the accomplishments of Kun. I've read the comic had it on my cpu (don't know if I have it now).
Kun was simply a greater Sith than Sadow. Those who can't do teach - how's that saying relevant here, you might ask? I'm merely pointing out that we can't use what Kun did as an indication of what Sadow could do.
Beyond that Kun's most impressive feats with the force were not exercised on force sensitives, which perhaps hints at the idea that those who could command the force with great authority perhaps had a defense for such phyisically manifested attacks.
Janus Marius
Lovely. Well, let's make a conditional argument around it then:
If Vader's amulet is similar to Sadow's and can either replicate blasts or absorb them, and if he even knows how to use it this way, then it stands to reason the amulet blasts themselves may be not so much a deciding factor in the battle.
There. Until the abilities of Vader with this amulet are further substantiated, that argument stands.
I don't. But it was an ability to drain life. He only used it on Byss and didn't say, drain the Jedi Temple or anything like that. He didn't sap the rebel base. Is that definitive proof that he cannot. Of course not. It's context. Just because Obi-Wan did not use the force to open a beer bottle is not proof that he is unable to do so.
That make sense to you?
In addition to that, she overcomes Vrook and Force pushes him like a ragdoll. Meanwhile, she has the ability to pretty much own the Jedi Masters using solely the Force, as the cut-for-lack-of-development-time material supports. But simply because she didn't pop Sion's head like a melon or otherwise crush the Exile into a ball after draining her from the Force doesn't exclude her ability to do so. Intent can make force users hold back, or else Kun would have went into the senate chamber lighting up people with the amulet blasts.
But very effective and dramatic, IMO. Stripping Jacen of the Force seems like the Jedi thing to do, versus fighting him in saber combat. Again, it's not a huge debate whether or not Luke can do it considering he's got the Superman equivalent of Force control, but why he didn't. Again, ability is not determined solely by a being's not doing it during canon events.
No, actually you posted something totally off base about Sadow doing other, unrelated powers which I hadn't originally been arguing as why he wins. My most straight-forward position was Sadow made the amulets, the amulets make boom, Vader go boom. Period. So unless Vader's entire body is somehow more resistant and durable than the sith wyrm, he's toast.
Prove this conclusively using sources, not conjectures.
Perhaps you should step back and reread what I'm saying-- the amulets make the blasts and enhance one's anger, which itself fuels their force powers by extension. Kun being able to do this after picking up Sadow's amulet without any training indicates that it's inherent of the amulet itself, outside of oh, just using common sense. It's not like he was blasting away before he picked up the amulet, and the amulet just made his hand heavier or something.
Learn to put things in context instead of making blanket statements based on your own opinion, please.
This doesn't add up. If you're refering to the freezing, we don't know if it was even aimed at the Jedi. It's not like he was threatened by any of them. Tossed Sylvar like a ragdoll and stove Vodo's skull in. Considering his confidence in the situation, I can't see why he would need to freeze the Jedi in the senate chamber.
If you're refering to the amulet blasts, you should review the following scan:
http://i25.tinypic.com/fc5edy.jpg
In addition to multiplying his rage "hundred thousand times" and on the second page it states that it doubles with "each pulse of anger". You see that he's all but leveling the wall with a single blast, and indeed two pages later the entire room is reduced to rubble and flames.
And this is what Kun did with the amulet without any training or in-depth knowledge of its abilities. Sadow created it. He knows it better than anyone. He could just spam blasts and wreck Vader who will have to try and close the gap and hope Sadow is somehow weaker and slower with his blade.
Gideon
This is getting ridiculous, lmao. Why do people cling to the absence of proof clause like a shield as they scramble to try to make a point? These versus matches are not 100% conclusive or correct, they are hypothetical in nature and the 'Any Given Sunday' rule definitely applies. That said, when two combatants from separate time periods are set up against one another, one must compare their Force feats. Sadow's greatest feats of power derive from Sith arcana, which enhances their Force powers, and Sith magic , which requires no effort to use. Vader's feats of strength are dependent solely on his powerful, raw connection to the Force. Sadow's greatest feat without his vaunted flagship and meditation sphere is what? Hurling a single brick. And you comically assert that this is "far greater" than Vader's ability to dismantle bridges and strike his opponents in critical, strategic areas? Than his ability to dismantle a room in Cloud City and hurl it at Luke? Than his ability to crush and WTFpwn Emperor Palpatine's laboratory in Revenge of the Sith? All of this, completely unaided? No. And despite this, you're asserting that Sadow rivals Vader in raw power? Doubt it. I'm going to have to side with Allankles on this one, Janus, and feel free to accuse me of having a "personal, biased opinion" on this from here to eternity (even though we both know that when it comes to this particular group of Sith, you've always been that which you've accused me of).
darthsith19
I don't understand why everyone always lol's at Sadow throwing a brick. Have you ever tried getting a brick out of a wall? It's cemented in there... taking it out with no effort, and quickly, right in the middle of a duel, is impressive. Much more, it hits Ludo's head with enouc=gh force that it bounces off - that would knock out most humans at lest, and possibly more. Yet Ludo gets up off the ground quick enough to block Naga's next attack! That shows these ancient sith's powers, not their weaknesses. Honestly, not to downplay Vader's feats. but in ESB those objects he threw, they weren't attacked to the floor, were they? If they weren't most of us could probably have picked one of them up, but I doubt any of us would be able to shove a brick out of a brick wall without using tools and taking some time.
Elite Hunter
I think some(atleast one) of the objects Vader tossed in ESB at Luke were attached to the wall.
Ivalice
Originally posted by darthsith19
I don't understand why everyone always lol's at Sadow throwing a brick. Have you ever tried getting a brick out of a wall? It's cemented in there... taking it out with no effort, and quickly, right in the middle of a duel, is impressive. Much more, it hits Ludo's head with enouc=gh force that it bounces off - that would knock out most humans at lest, and possibly more. Yet Ludo gets up off the ground quick enough to block Naga's next attack! That shows these ancient sith's powers, not their weaknesses. Honestly, not to downplay Vader's feats. but in ESB those objects he threw, they weren't attacked to the floor, were they? If they weren't most of us could probably have picked one of them up, but I doubt any of us would be able to shove a brick out of a brick wall without using tools and taking some time. You mean attached to the floor?
darthsith19
Originally posted by Ivalice
You mean attached to the floor?
Yeah, that's what I meant, whoops.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I think some(atleast one) of the objects Vader tossed in ESB at Luke were attached to the wall.
Oh yeah now that you mrntion it I remember at east one of those, also. But still, taking a brick out of a wall requires force. No human could do that with his bare hands, at least I don't think so. Unless is was lose already.
IKP
Given how one of Sadow's underlings was capable of using her powers to single-handedly enslave the people of an entire planet, and later wipe them all out with a single Force attack, Vader gets stomped, badly.
All that's stated on the matter is that the amulets were used to help the Sith Lords focus their powers, and that they multiplied the inner rage of the person wearing them; nothing indicates that they actually directly enhanced their powers, and such an assertion would require proof.
What's the real difference? Is "Sith Magic" not simply what the Ancient Sith labelled the Dark Side of the Force?
I've seen this be stated numerous times, first by Publius in that argument of his that you provided, and multiple times by yourself, since. Is this explicitly stated, or are you arguing that correlation = causation?
Darth Sexy
Originally posted by IKP
Given how one of Sadow's underlings was capable of using her powers to single-handedly enslave the people of an entire planet, and later wipe them all out with a single Force attack, Vader gets stomped, badly.
Who are you referring to exactly? The obscure story of some ancient sith who tried a sith ritual on Ambria and got herself killed? Great argument Noobaris.
No it wouldn't, because that's exactly what the amulets did. I have debated this with Escape millions of times and at the end he was right. They were not able to perform certain feats which is why they had amulets. You can play semantics all day long, whether it's "Focused" or "enhanced", but the fact remains that they couldn't perform said feats without the use of their sith arcana.
It's tricky. Sith magic is basically illusions. Sadow was an expert in sith magic, as was Satal and Aleema, as was Nadd. It's not necessarily the dark side of the force persay, because lightside users were able to create illusions. But the general idea is that the ancient sith came up with the illusion tricks, so that's why it's called sith magic.
You would have to prove that it takes effort to use these sith artifacts. Seeing as how Tavion was able to use Ragnos' scepter infused by the dark side, it seems as if anybody can use these artifacts. However, every force user has different levels with which they can use the artifacts. For instance, Exar Kun would have more efficient use of Sadow's amulets as opposed to Tavion, because of his force mastery and raw force abilities..
Allankles
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I don't. But it was an ability to drain life. He only used it on Byss and didn't say, drain the Jedi Temple or anything like that. He didn't sap the rebel base. Is that definitive proof that he cannot. Of course not. It's context. Just because Obi-Wan did not use the force to open a beer bottle is not proof that he is unable to do so.
Whether he can or cannot is not indicated by what he did to Byss. So this isn't really a great example, considering Palpatine showed a potent use of Sith Lightning in close quarters combat; he has a showing.
Sadow simply doesn't have the showings. We could assume a lot, and if we did I don't see how that couldn't be extended to Vader seeing as he was Sidious apprentice for just over 2 decades. Context in this case, isn't really a good argument for Sadow. I'll explain this further below.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
In addition to that, she overcomes Vrook and Force pushes him like a ragdoll. Meanwhile, she has the ability to pretty much own the Jedi Masters using solely the Force, as the cut-for-lack-of-development-time material supports. But simply because she didn't pop Sion's head like a melon or otherwise crush the Exile into a ball after draining her from the Force doesn't exclude her ability to do so. Intent can make force users hold back, or else Kun would have went into the senate chamber lighting up people with the amulet blasts.
I think the narrative pretty much explains why Kreia didn't do that to character X and Y. The Exile and Sion - it must be said - were different kinds of animals. Even considering Kreia powerful TK I don't see why it should overcome the Exile and Sion given that they were supposed to be among the best duelists of that era.
Intent shouldn't be part of the discussion when we're talking about life and death battles here. The Sith war, was no game. Neither were the battles Kreia, Sion and the Exile were involved in. So I can't see how intent is a hindrance there.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Period. So unless Vader's entire body is somehow more resistant and durable than the sith wyrm, he's toast.
Can you explain how a wyrm is comparable to a powerful dark side force user like Vader? Do you honestly believe such crude attacks are unblockable? Any force power that manifest itself physically in such a conspicuous manner, surely should be blockable. It manifest itself no differently than Sith lightning.
As a powerful force user, shouldn't Vader be able to form a defense for a physical attack? Or does this power operate through the force itself like a force drain, if it's merely physical you would have to come up with a good reason why Vader can't block it.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
http://i25.tinypic.com/fc5edy.jpg
In addition to multiplying his rage "hundred thousand times" and on the second page it states that it doubles with "each pulse of anger". You see that he's all but leveling the wall with a single blast, and indeed two pages later the entire room is reduced to rubble and flames.
And this is what Kun did with the amulet without any training or in-depth knowledge of its abilities. Sadow created it. He knows it better than anyone. He could just spam blasts and wreck Vader who will have to try and close the gap and hope Sadow is somehow weaker and slower with his blade.
As I said earlier, we know enough about the force to recognize that such attacks are mere crude manifestations of the force. We know for a fact that any physically manifested attack can be blocked with the force. There are techniques which have no defense which attack through the force itself with no physical manifestation like Nihilus' drain, but such a crude attack?
It's basically a form of kinetic energy, we know that can be controlled via the force. Unless Sadow is stronger than Vader in the force (seriously doubtful), he isn't going to overcome Vaders defenses with such attacks.
My last point is that; I hope you know all that talk of anger is hyperbole. How do you even quantify anger? Sure we've seen people go into a berserk rage. But can you honestly say that Anakin was more angry than Luke in ROTJ or that the young Hett who lost his father was more angry than Obi Wan in TPPM? I mean anger is not quantifiable, so those multiplications are pure hyperbole.
Darth Sexy
To be fair, in theory, everything Exar Kun did as a result from Sadow's teachings, Sadow should be able to do as well. You can pull out the absence of proof clause all you want but the fact remains that Sadow knows how to use his amulets best and the simple fact that he didn't use them doesn't mean he can't. It just means that most likely the ancient sith could all do something like what Kun did in the Massassi temple, or the ancient sith had a defense (which would be represented by the second amulet). The latter statement is just an opinion, not fact or any kind of proof.
They were supposed to be the best duelists of that era? Says who? Please don't pull out this exile fanboy card as you have in the past. There is nothing to suggest the Exile is anything but an average lightsaber duelist. Same goes with Sion.
Given that they were at least twice the size of a human being and destroyed a stone wall, I highly doubt Vader, who is mostly machine, could stop that blast. In fact, nothing suggests that he can.
No he doesn't, YOU have to come up with proof that Vader can block something of that magnitude. I don't think Vader's suit is as powerful as a Massassi Temple so the burden of proof falls on you.
If you call what Kun did with the amulet a "crude attack", then you and myself are going to have problems with semantics, such as the term "crude". There is nothing "crude" about what Kun did.
Amulets were used to perform attacks that weren't performed naturally. There is NOTHING to suggest Vader can block a steroid type attack.
Let me guess. You want us to quantify "100,000 times" too? It was powerful enough to reduce a sith wyrm to nothing, and to make a hole in a temple. Notice how I'm not choosing a victor here. Vader's force mastery is superior to Sadow, while Sadow has the broader knowledge of the dark side. However, if Sadow unleashes his amulets, Vader is dead.
Ivalice
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Let me guess. You want us to quantify "100,000 times" too? It was powerful enough to reduce a sith wyrm to nothing, and to make a hole in a temple. Notice how I'm not choosing a victor here. Vader's force mastery is superior to Sadow, while Sadow has the broader knowledge of the dark side. However, if Sadow unleashes his amulets, Vader is dead. Broader dark side knowledge? I thought it was stated that vader had an ancient sith holocron on in his castle in vjun?(The rise and fall of darth vader).
And if kun and bane could learn a shit load of knowledge from 1 holocron, i don't see why vader can't.
Seeing that while he may be receiving training from palpatine to become more powerful in the force but to an extent where palpatine won't make him supremely powerful, i don't see why vader wouldn't turn to other means of studying the force to surpass his master which is what he has been clearly trying to do.
Anyways the rise and fall of darth vader states he has a single ancient sith holocron.
Janus Marius
Oh yes, because having a generic or even specific ancient Sith holocron makes you better than a living ancient Sith, especially when you spend most of your days not being able to use Sith Lightning and otherwise being the Emperor's *****.
Anyways, DS (Surprisingly) refuted Allankles' confusion. As for Escape, I'm going to let you just think about your stance. I've made my case and quite well. There's no sense in me arguing against your prejudice. That's just not productive.
Gideon
Here we go again; this is becoming rather droll, don't you think?
Janus, between you and I, there is only one of us who has a reputation for a calm, persuasive discussion and documented attempts to reason. The other usually drafts comical, but petty and vicious diatribes attempting to bash or intimidate those who disagree into submission. Each and every one of us here is aware which traits belong to whom, so you're not fooling anybody here by pointing fingers and crying out "prejudice". Likewise, you have been irretrievably pro-Ancient Sith since your original tenure here, and it's undeniable. You vehemently argued that Marka Ragnos could solo and WTFpwn the likes of Luke Skywalker, Yoda, and Palpatine without "use of all of his limbs", and as I have pointed out to you a dozen or so times since you're return, you've been (apparently) knocked on your ass so hard, scrambling for a shadow of suggestion of superiority for the Ancient Sith that the most staunch and biased of the pro-Ancient Sith elite (Deception and Darth Sexy) feel that it is pointless to try to argue in their favor anymore. Likewise, Darth Sexy can provide testimony to the fact that I have argued in favor of Sadow and his ilk on occasion when it is clear that SW_LeGenD and Allankles attempted to undermine their status.
It is ridiculous to try to paint it out that I'm out to get the Ancient Sith and that I'm plagued with "prejudice". Ultimately, only one of us here has ever been proven to be utterly and completely blinded when it comes to them, and if it will so interest you, I can go back and post examples of your own prejudice, for all to see. Perhaps that will jog your lapsing memory?
I appreciate the time to think. You can either 'refute' my prejudice-ridden arguments or don't bother responding to them at all. It doesn't make a bit of difference. But it would be to your benefit to not whine and point fingers when it comes to bias (I don't rely on the absence of proof clause like a shield and attempt to cast doubt on otherwise sound conclusions). And you say I nitpick, lol.
This will be my final post on the subject until we both feel inclined to continue the argument (which will require a rebuttal from you). And remember: (even though I've already sent six bajillion private messages with the same topic) I'm always willing to discuss this whole thing with you.
The ball's in your court.

Darth Sexy
Escape is correct. As far as I remember, he has been 100% objective, and that's saying a lot when you look at all of the people on this forum present and past. I try to be the exact same way which is at times, difficult. In this situation I'm on your side Janus but it's hilarious how you have to add the snoody comment "surprisingly" in regards to my debating skills. Just because I don't have the time nor the patience to go in circles with you doesn't make you any better than me in regards to debating.
Janus Marius
Escape:
I don't run around rampantly clogging up threads with my opinion every single time Sadow or another Ancient Sith is brought up, and none of my arguments are arguments from personal opinion (Like you), or just plain ol' argument via baseless assertions (Like you). Even when the proof is right in front of you and the conclusion already drawn, you look the other way and either bring up some other minor detail and blow it up or attack me personally as being faulted, unreasonable, an old guy picking on a mere kid, some ancient sith fanboy, a dick, a sarcastic dick, and not making any arguments worth reading.
It's amazing how quickly you turn to personal attacks and well-poisoning when you can't beat me in a debate.
You know, I don't agree with LS on a lot of things, yet at least he has the decency and maturity to try and separate the debate from personal attacks, even when it gets heated. You've never known such grace, and considering you're barely old enough to shave, we should all know better than to expect any real rationality out of you.
So ball's in your court. Either grow up and stop slinging personal insults and attacks, or expect me to challenge your ridiculousness every time it rears its ugly, misshapen head.
DS:
I had a big of trouble understanding you at first, but that's because you had your head halfway up Escape's ass. You say he's been "100% objective", but you wouldn't know the meaning of the phrase if it came up and fathered your children. You don't "try" to be anything other than antagonistic and when you're not riding the fence you're hopping on the opposite side just to get a response. It's few and far apart that you make any good points, and when you are challenged, like Ivalice, you tuck tail and run or just act like you debate part time or something, besides spending more time on these threads than most of us. So really, I was surprised that you made any good points at all, even if I had brought them up previously.
You tend to just act like a controversial ass because it makes you the center of attention. And that is apparently something you require. Thankfully Escape is just irrational and hateful of the Ancient Sith/KotOR-era Force users/TotJ-era Force users/Anyone not associated with the movies or post-movie works because they are a threat to his favorite character.
So you two go and have fun and enjoy each other, because it's pretty endearing to see you guys support each other. I think they have a term for that kind of bond...
Oh right.
http://i26.tinypic.com/k1cemf.jpg
Blax_Hydralisk
Can't we all just get along?
Darth Sexy
I didn't know you had a "big" of trouble understanding me. I'm apparently having a "bit" of trouble understanding you. You telling me I have my head up Escape's ass is like me saying you have your head up all the Antedeluvians ass. Of course you are going to deny this and tell me this is somehow different than me allegedly having my head up Escape's ass. But here's the thing. Escape is recognized as an objective debater by more than just me, whereas you are recognized as a bitter mid 20s pseudointellectual with too much time on your hands. Who's the ***** now?
Blah blah blah we can say the same about you.
If you don't like it, quit bitching and cry back to your dying forum..
http://www.afunnystuff.com/forumpics/stillgh3y.jpg
IKC
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/254/1176972758312gb9.jpg
Darth Sexy
Very nice IKC, I was wondering when you were going to saunter in here and save your girlfriend.
Ivalice
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Oh yes, because having a generic or even specific ancient Sith holocron makes you better than a living ancient Sith, especially when you spend most of your days not being able to use Sith Lightning and otherwise being the Emperor's *****.
Lol as if the ancient sith or any sith for that matter would waste precious time inputting data into a holocron let alone construct one were it to contain a pile of worthless junk.
And since when not being able to conjure up lightning equates to being a useless pawn as you are seemingly trying to imply?
Gideon
You don't? Well, this must be a recently acquired trait of yours, and that's excellent; we're making progress. However, I must object to the notion that you base "none of arguments from personal opinion (like me) and baseless assertions (like me)", because as I see it, there is no logical evidence or a distant cousin thereof suggesting that Marka Ragnos could "WTFpwnz0rs!!1one!" Luke Skywalker, Darth Sidious, Exar Kun, and Darth Revan by himself and without full use of his limbs. Unless, of course, there has been such evidence around all this time and it has managed to elude me. Confident in your objectivity as you seem to be, you will no doubt have no problem providing the proof for your earlier claims.
Come now, Janus. Pot. Kettle. Black. Must you be a hypocrite every single step of the way? You've been implying and calling me a Sidious fanboy since the metaphorical dawn of time, is it not within my rights to retaliate when I see a startlingly prominent fondness for the Ancient Sith from you? You make it sound as though I call you such without reason, and you need only look to the posts you've made and the posts you continue to make -- the fact that you have yet to address anything about the Ancient Sith in our discussions and private messages -- it's almost as if you're trying to ignore it. If you're not a fanboy, surely you can explain why you posted the things you did. Likewise, I have said that you're a grown adult who has demonstrated a remarkable lack of patience when dealing with someone substantially younger than you, not that you are "an old guy picking on a mere kid". I'm hardly blameless in this spat, but come on. You aren't exactly the embodiment of patience and understanding.
Personal attacks? Like, what? Implying that you're a fanboy of the Ancient Sith? Well, you've been calling me a Sidious-fanboy forever, so I'd say that they cancel each other out. Saying that some of your own members at EoD consider you to be a failed administrator? Harsh as it sounds, that's not an insult or a cleverly disguised bait. That is the truth. Whether you actually are or not is up for debate. Saying that you've went from 'fellating' the Ancient Sith to having the most faithful and zealot of their fanboys concluding "Ehh... it's best not to argue in favor of them anymore"? That would be a fact.
Anyways, you've been bringing this up quite often anymore, how 'I can't beat you in a debate'. Are you becoming a bit insecure, Janus?
In contrast, snapping off at people who disagree, posting offensive pictures, and insinuating that two users are gay just because one happens to prefer the other's tactics rather than yours? That might be considered trolling and personal attacks, and from the looks of it, that's more your territory than mine.
Your propaganda skills are prominent as ever. You make yourself seem almost angelic. But, once again, you're not fooling anyone here, Janus. Lightsnake and I handle much things differently, but don't imply that you somehow act the same way as him, either. You haven't exactly proven where I have been so cutthroat with you, and I have already demonstrated that -- within this post -- you've been outrageously rude and hostile. Saying that I've "never known such grace" doesn't seem to make it true, as it doesn't seem to be my reputation to fly off at the handle and attack people on a whim. You seem to be fabricating a backstory for me; perhaps proving it would make it seem more realistic.
Janus, my friend, you're becoming unintentionally comical. You haven't provided a shred of proof that I am "slinging personal insults and attacks". Making me out to be some kind of ruthless monster doesn't change facts. Of the two of us, only you have a reputation for unwarranted bashing, via hateful words or rude pictures, and personal attacks. I have no ill will towards you at all. In all actuality, I'm the one who has been trying to understand the method to your madness. I've proposed that we have a calm question and answer session, but it doesn't seem to interest you. You've ignored the multiple private messages and only respond to points that you feel you can address, rather than take all of the bullets like the man you imply that you are. That you would go on to call Darth Sexy and I "gay" is funny, especially since you said he was my girlfriend a few weeks ago. Far from your finest hour. Why, Janus? Because he and I share radically different view points and still manage to respect one another? That he considers me objective, when you never have had the honor? Given your constant assertions how I can't "beat you in a debate!!1one!", it carries the symptoms of extreme, petty jealousy.
darthsith19
It's so great that all the Antediluvians are coming back!

Gideon
Well, trudging my way through all of the bitterness of your diatribe, I would point out that none of the Ancient Sith and other Force users you mentioned are a threat to Gilad Pellaeon. He is, by far, their superior in all things.
I will respond with your own statement, as (I'm told) nothing is more embarrassing than having someone else curbstomp you with your own words:
And, for the grand finale! This is an excerpt taken from Janus's private forums, EoD. A question was posed to him:
...Janus's response:
Ladies and gentlemen, we have what is considered to be a direct victory. I would like to thank Janus for playing and putting up an excellent show, after all these years. Now, we know why they have stopped arguing for the Ancient Sith at EoD. It's because they have seen the light, acknowledged the light, and would rather keep themselves locked in the dark.
Light always finds a way, folks, it casts a strong glare.
IKC
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Very nice IKC, I was wondering when you were going to saunter in here and save your girlfriend.
You were? Really? So whenever Janus makes a post you wonder when I'm going to do the same even though it's been about six months since I've looked at this pit?
Wow you're stupid.
Emphasis mine. I thought I'd highlight the parts where he makes clear that he's not saying what you claim he's saying.
Perhaps you've forgotten to read since last we've been around. I mean, as far as I can tell you wouldn't have to read too much, given that you can repeat the same drivel ad nauseum and pass it off as debate without an Antediluvian around.
And no, Escape. The reason we've generally stopped talking about these kinds of things is because this well has been dry for quite awhile. As well, unlike you, we're not this guy:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png
Gideon
Originally posted by IKC
Wow you're stupid.
Sheesh. First, Janus with his "girlfriend" and "gay" jabs, and IKC returning with the time tried "your stoopid!!11" remarks? I guess witty banter is in short supply at EoD.
Janus went from thinking that Sidious was among the weakest Sith Lords to admitting that he is one of the most powerful. Emphasis mine.
And the predictable questioning of the opponent's reading comprehension. IKC, new material, please. You'd think that spending over a year in internet exile would give you plenty of time to think of something new for those few occasions you crawl out of your hidey-hole.
IKC
Originally posted by Gideon
Janus went from thinking that Sidious was among the weakest Sith Lords to admitting that he is one of the most powerful. Emphasis mine.
And the predictable questioning of the opponent's reading comprehension. IKC, new material, please. You'd think that spending over a year in internet exile would give you plenty of time to think of something new for those few occasions you crawl out of your hidey-hole.
Wow, you're still stupid.
From the material you posted earlier, someone asked Janus,
Then you claimed,
As if what he said means he agrees that Palpatine was the strongest Sith, or that he thinks he's more powerful than the Ancient Sith.
It doesn't, and he doesn't, as I pointed out to you using rudimentary reading comprehension. Your masturbatory celebration at the end of that post was unwarranted and thankfully short-lived.
Darth Sexy
Originally posted by IKC
You were? Really? So whenever Janus makes a post you wonder when I'm going to do the same even though it's been about six months since I've looked at this pit?
Wow you're stupid.
Says the little boy who's come back to defend his girlfriend..
I could say the same about you but it would be too obvious seeing as how you ran from this forum like a little girl..
Gideon
Originally posted by IKC
Wow, you're still stupid.
Giving me excerpts from the 'father-son' speeches in your youth doesn't exactly apply here, IKC.
Then you claimed,
This almost looks like deduction.
Don't assume, IKC. When you do, you tend to make an ass out of you and me (in this case, it's just you). Janus said that, in a manner of speaking, Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord ever. The point was that he once thought that Palpatine was shit on every other Sith Lord's boots, and now he admits that, even in Force power, Palpatine is among the best.
Really, lecturing someone on reading comprehension (predictable) when your entire insult-laden diatribe is based off of the assumption that I considered that statement to be Janus's admission that 'Sidious > Ancient Sith', really isn't necessary. Really, IKC, perhaps you should return to EoD where such bullshit is common practice. But here, now? Hardly.
Raise your game or get off the court.
IKC
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Says the little boy who's come back to defend his girlfriend..
I could say the same about you but it would be too obvious seeing as how you ran from this forum like a little girl..
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/456/1201146361234up0.jpg
Darth Sexy
HAHAHAHAHA this coming from a fool who came onto this forum after his "exile" to call people stupid..http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/hypocrite.jpg
Gideon
Originally posted by IKC
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/456/1201146361234up0.jpg
IKC
Except that no Antediluvian ever denied that Palpatine held the most political power or that he was personally very powerful (by DE specifically).
What you wrote, and I'm sure this escaped you due to your general reading skills, meant that you claimed victory and ergo you must think Janus was admitting defeat.
I don't belittle your reading skills for no reason, you're clearly playing hard and fast with the language (and elsewhere, the facts). If you don't want people to take you wrong then perhaps you should read and write in a manner that actually follows the language correctly.
Oh, tdtd - Learn to format. Nice job putting that enormous image to the right of all your text.
Darth Sexy
Omgz no, I didn't format the image properly. You PWNED me IKC. Next, I expect you to correct my grammar or punctuation. Ah, the last resort to a lost cause.
Gideon
Originally posted by IKC
Except that no Antediluvian ever denied that Palpatine held the most political power or that he was personally very powerful (by DE specifically).
We've gone from a distinct lack of witty banter to outright lies in such a short time. Your lot went from claiming "Palpatine was the benefactor of circumstances" and that the older and ancient Sith Lords would be able to annihilate him to admitting that he is among the most powerful ever.
I claimed victory because Janus has retracted his earlier opinions and agreeing that Palpatine is among the most powerful Sith in terms of acquired Force power and knowledge, and is the most powerful Sith Lord ever in terms of political acumen, thus making him the greatest. Are you used to people having to translate everything for you, IKC?
Or, perhaps, you could avoid making unnecessary assumptions that make you look like an utter ass. You assumed that I was under the impression that Janus conceded that Palpatine was the strongest Sith Lord ever; I never did. Janus went from being on a massive anti-Sidious campaign to admitting that the Emperor was the politically strongest Sith Lord and among the best with the Force and acquired knowledge. This contradicts the vast majority of his beliefs during his tenure here.
You might want to add a funny picture in this, IKC. Your lackluster wit and sad attempts to reason (pitiful skills that have clearly atrophied further in your exile) aren't exactly bringing out the awe in your abilities.
Blax_Hydralisk
By the powers invested in me by the great black Jesus, I demand that we all break for lunch, and this court session will resume on Sunday!
Gideon
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
By the powers invested in me by the great black Jesus, I demand that we all break for lunch, and this court session will resume on Sunday!
I submit.
Janus Marius
I can't believe this passage needs to be clarified. That's desperation right there.
Points used by myself:
1. "In a manner of speaking", which is a "from a certain point of view" disclaimer in that this is obviously not a blanket or absolute statement. Even Luke Skywalker was able to recognize this as a truth which depends on a certain amount of relativism.
2. Most influential sith of his time, which is understandable- he overcame the Jedi through massive treachery and he was one of two Sith during his lifetime. He had a habit of dominating and/or killing off other Sith.
3. Controlling more space and temporal power is an obvious nod to his role as Galactic Emperor. This says absolutely nothing about his dueling capabilities, or mastery of the Force. Being a leader and administrator is not itself proof of capability.
4. Most powerful cult of personality is iffy, but basically he is the most prominent Sith galaxy-wide, and held quite a lot of fans and supporters, both Force users and non. This statement is the weakest in having any real support.
5. The honor of being the only sith to have people obey him willingly is a nod to his manipulation and facade as a normal person. The entire galaxy didn't know he was even a Sith. Again, no bearing on his personal power.
Top-tier of the PT era is a short list, and doesn't stack him up against anyone outside of the PT-era, nor does it definitively place him anywhere but in the top tier of that respective era. It's not an absolute.
DE Sidious is pretty much over the top. I haven't argued against DE Sidious in a long time, and I routinely choose him over quite a bit of other duelists. He is likely one of the most powerful Sith in the Force, and had far more time and sources to use than his younger PT self, which is apparent. But again, even this isn't definitive. Only Sith and fanboys deal in absolutes.
So yeah, great job at playing semantics, Escape.
http://i32.tinypic.com/2zh303p.jpg
Pyron_Knight
Who wins?
The Man With The Golden Gun
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/08_01/Lee0807_468x537.jpg
Gideon
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I can't believe this passage needs to be clarified. That's desperation right there.
Points used by myself:
1. "In a manner of speaking", which is a "from a certain point of view" disclaimer in that this is obviously not a blanket or absolute statement. Even Luke Skywalker was able to recognize this as a truth which depends on a certain amount of relativism.
2. Most influential sith of his time, which is understandable- he overcame the Jedi through massive treachery and he was one of two Sith during his lifetime. He had a habit of dominating and/or killing off other Sith.
3. Controlling more space and temporal power is an obvious nod to his role as Galactic Emperor. This says absolutely nothing about his dueling capabilities, or mastery of the Force. Being a leader and administrator is not itself proof of capability.
4. Most powerful cult of personality is iffy, but basically he is the most prominent Sith galaxy-wide, and held quite a lot of fans and supporters, both Force users and non. This statement is the weakest in having any real support.
5. The honor of being the only sith to have people obey him willingly is a nod to his manipulation and facade as a normal person. The entire galaxy didn't know he was even a Sith. Again, no bearing on his personal power.
Top-tier of the PT era is a short list, and doesn't stack him up against anyone outside of the PT-era, nor does it definitively place him anywhere but in the top tier of that respective era. It's not an absolute.
DE Sidious is pretty much over the top. I haven't argued against DE Sidious in a long time, and I routinely choose him over quite a bit of other duelists. He is likely one of the most powerful Sith in the Force, and had far more time and sources to use than his younger PT self, which is apparent. But again, even this isn't definitive. Only Sith and fanboys deal in absolutes.
So yeah, great job at playing semantics, Escape.
http://i32.tinypic.com/2zh303p.jpg
So, essentially, you've admitted that you were completely wrong about him and (in your own words) "haven't argued against DE Sidious in a long time, and I routinely choose him over quite a bit of other duelists." Being a narcissist, I understand that it is hard to put aside one's ego and concede or apologize, and I especially understand how difficult that must be for you, an adult who has been decisively proven wrong by someone who was a little over 15 at the time. So, I guess it's as close as we'll get to: "Escape, you were right, I was completely wrong about Sidious's level of power, though I can't apologize for being an enormously obtuse douchebag and fighting it for all these years. But I want you to know, you've changed my outlook on things."
And look, you've even taken the liberty of putting a funny picture. Beating a dying horse? I have an eye for art; the horse represents you and your argument, and I'm the bat? How very fitting.
Darth Sexy
Escape, you're wasting your time.
Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, you're wasting your time.
I disagree.
Perhaps if I were attempting to reason with Janus or debate with him about his own heightened fanboyism, but I'm doing neither. I have made it impossibly clear that I have been (and still am) willing to have a discussion with him, so that we might get a better understanding of the mentalities we both possess. But he has made it explicitly clear that he doesn't want to, and would rather ***** and moan on various threads that "Escape is a Sidious fanboy!! Escape, why are you a Sidious fanboy?!" and henceforth ad infinitum. To every question he has posed to myself and Lightsnake, we have been courteous and have provided answers. When questions are posed to him, be it via private message or on threads, Janus elects not to respond. Why? I suspect that his hesitation derives from the fact that he cannot provide an explanation that is substantiated or in any way logical. I mean, take a look at the above diatribe; Janus admits that "he has not debated against DE Sidious in a long time" and "chooses him over other duelists". Is that not tantamount to a declaration of defeat? That he was utterly wrong, hence his sudden change of heart? But he can't so much as say the words "I was wrong" or concede the point and becomes unquestionably hostile when the subject stems to DE Sidious or the Ancient Sith. Further facts in favor of this line of thought are that, even at EoD, the Ancient Sith are not argued in favor of. It seems that the denizens of the forums have come to the conclusion that they have no way of proving how "uber!!" those particular Sith are, and resolve merely to not discuss them at all. Consider yourself, Darth Sexy, or Deception (the most ardent of the Ragnos fan brigade). Neither of you even really bother anymore and admit that there's no way you can prove or assert that Ragnos is a Force god. Yet Janus? No. He can't even have a discussion about them with me.
So, I feel that no time is being wasted. The offer is on the table and if Janus wishes to merely act petty in every thread he and I post in, I'm content to do so. After all, he's the one whom I "can't beat in a debate" and the vaunted adult. His obsessive behavior (the multiple signatures, mocking myself and Sidious, the constant direct references to myself at EoD, associating you and I as gay lovers) is exposing him to be an irretrievably immature man who is constantly bested and baited by a person substantially younger than him.
Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Gideon
I disagree.
Perhaps if I were attempting to reason with Janus or debate with him about his own heightened fanboyism, but I'm doing neither. I have made it impossibly clear that I have been (and still am) willing to have a discussion with him, so that we might get a better understanding of the mentalities we both possess. But he has made it explicitly clear that he doesn't want to, and would rather ***** and moan on various threads that "Escape is a Sidious fanboy!! Escape, why are you a Sidious fanboy?!" and henceforth ad infinitum. To every question he has posed to myself and Lightsnake, we have been courteous and have provided answers. When questions are posed to him, be it via private message or on threads, Janus elects not to respond. Why? I suspect that his hesitation derives from the fact that he cannot provide an explanation that is substantiated or in any way logical. I mean, take a look at the above diatribe; Janus admits that "he has not debated against DE Sidious in a long time" and "chooses him over other duelists". Is that not tantamount to a declaration of defeat? That he was utterly wrong, hence his sudden change of heart? But he can't so much as say the words "I was wrong" or concede the point and becomes unquestionably hostile when the subject stems to DE Sidious or the Ancient Sith. Further facts in favor of this line of thought are that, even at EoD, the Ancient Sith are not argued in favor of. It seems that the denizens of the forums have come to the conclusion that they have no way of proving how "uber!!" those particular Sith are, and resolve merely to not discuss them at all. Consider yourself, Darth Sexy, or Deception (the most ardent of the Ragnos fan brigade). Neither of you even really bother anymore and admit that there's no way you can prove or assert that Ragnos is a Force god. Yet Janus? No. He can't even have a discussion about them with me.
So, I feel that no time is being wasted. The offer is on the table and if Janus wishes to merely act petty in every thread he and I post in, I'm content to do so. After all, he's the one whom I "can't beat in a debate" and the vaunted adult. His obsessive behavior (the multiple signatures, mocking myself and Sidious, the constant direct references to myself at EoD, associating you and I as gay lovers) is exposing him to be an irretrievably immature man who is constantly bested and baited by a person substantially younger than him.
You are absolutely right but I feel you and lightsnake are fighting a losing battle against an egocentric dipshit with no concept of reality. It's a losing battle because of the way you approach it. You might think it's always right to be civil and courteous but I disagree. In mitigating circumstances (this is one of those), I think it is better to fight fire with fire. Janus is pushing, so you should push back. Sure he looks like a fool everytime he types but you can look intelligent AND be uncivil at the same time.
Janus Marius
When was the last time I said DE Sidious loses a fight when it was unreasonable? Over a year? Two years?
When have I argued against yours or another's stilted and biased view of PT Sidious? Quite often? At least once a week?
But you've never learned to differentiate between DE Sidious and PT Sidious, always molding them together when it suits you and never mentally separating them, because you know that PT Sidious is a complete wuss compared to his later self.
Of course, I'm glad you can read well enough to see that much. Keep on plugging away, Escape. Maybe someday you'll look back at all this and see just how dense you've been. But hey- at least you have what? Two supporters? Maybe three?
I could see if I was out to prove DE Sidious was inferior to everyone and couldn't beat Coleman Trebor, but that hasn't been the case. DE Sidious, as I have said before, is powerful. I reread DE and I conceded that much a long time ago. You need to accept this and move on. If me admitting that is a "victory" to you, you need to seriously reevaluate your reason for posting here. I came to a conclusion which was reasonable by reviewing the source materials and completely ignoring anything you said is not a "victory" for you, and it certainly does jack-all for your current PT Sidious debates.
But then again, I could be wasting my time with you because whenever the debate does not turn in your favor you attack me, my past arguments, my friends, my forum, my age, my profession, and try and play off like you're some sort of mature debating god who's had inexhaustible patience with me being some sort of bashing idiot. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just because you feel you're civil and logical doesn't make it so. I've never had a serious problem with you outside of debate until you took it to the next level some time ago. You cast the first stone, and you went on to bring your bashing, biased viewpoints into EoD and its subsequent remake, and attacked Illustrious when he called you out. You then pissed and moaned, backstabbed me to everyone else via PM, and took your ball and left.
But amazingly, for someone who was 'wronged" there and disinterested in our viewpoints, arguments, and very being, you sure are knowledgable about what goes on in there, aren't you? I would think that if you didn't respect us and care for what we thought and were really so "above" us and "reasonable" that you wouldn't be tempted to haul off and bash me and my friends and my forum, huh? If I am insufferable and impossible to deal with, why do you continue to reply? Why do you know every single pindrop that happens at EoD?
Here's every single debate with you:
You: Skewed viewpoint on a duel or versus match.
Me: Reasonable rebuttal, which usually consists of Occam's Razor, sources, and ruling out the impossible.
You: More skewed viewpoint backed by a vicious denial of the opposite viewpoint. Straw-manning.
Me: More rebuttal, another wearisome post detailing why you're wrong.
You: Nitpicking reply which seeks to belittle decent arguments and myself while not offering up any in-depth arguments yourself.
....
Me: Tired of your crap again. I decide the argument is concluded because you cannot be reasoned with. You refuse to budge at all.
You: Personal attacks, crowing about "winning" the debate you never even fairly participated in, reinforcement of grand baseless assertions with some cheerleading acts run by DS.
It all goes to hell at this point. If you hadn't been unwilling to debate and compromise or at least agree to disagree, none of this would ever happen. I disagree and debate against people all the time I don't have great issues with: Nai Fohl, LS, Illustrious, Faunus, etc. They don't haul off and try to belittle me in five different threads while acting self-righteous and logically superior simply because they stonewalled my debate.
"Heightened fanboyism"? Where? Can you provide sources for this? Or is this another baseless assertion?
No, actually I last told you via PM this:
We're done here. Don't PM me again unless you come to your senses.
Since then I haven't talked debate with you in a PM. That was November of '06, btw. I simply won't waste my time debating with you in a PM when I can have an open forum with third party feedback. You don't like me and don't trust my views on anything, so why would I expect to convince you of anything in a debate? You might listen to a third party, which is the only reason I address your open posts. In reality, I'm debating right over your head and at the audience, convincing them with my points, because I know you can't concede defeat. I've started to just use you as a mouthpiece to show the opposite side so I can make more complete arguments. Yoda versus Sidious was pretty much the icing on the cake. Sadow versus Vader is more of the same. When I ask you for rationally drawn conclusions and sources, you misdirect. At that point I know the point is conceded, even if you can't admit it yourself.
Defeat? I'm sorry, in which thread was I debating against you and DE Sidious? Was it this one? No. Yoda versus PT era Sidious? No. Any thread at all this month? No.
Gee, where'd you get that baseless assertion from?
Again, you seem to know quite a bit considering you don't visit the forums anymore because of your self-imposed exile. It's amazing how you accuse me of folding and being a coward, but you fled from the forum because your views weren't supported.
And really, do you even have a shred of evidence for this baseless assertion as well? No, wait... it's by its very nature baseless. And an assertion. Nevermind.
Oh yes, because I'm the height of petty. You've always been honest forthright, all-American, 100% objective, fair and balanced, and you even recycle too.
My favorite quote:
That totally blows away this gem:
It takes a whopping two minutes to whip up a signature, Escape. Don't flatter yourself into thinking I obsess over anything other than sleep and time away from work. I love how you victimize yourself, though. I think you almost believe it, too.
DS, since when is Escape and LS fighting you?
When was Escape ever "always civil"? Is this like how he's "100% objective"? Wow, I had no clue you could be an Escape fanboy. That's a new one. I have expect you to run up and give him a shoulder massage.
DS talking about looking intelligent and being uncivil at the same time. I think somewhere God is crying at the ridiculousness of that idea.
Janus Marius
egocentric dipshit with no concept of reality
^ Really though, that's you spot-on. I couldn't have said it better than myself. We're making progress here, DS.
Pyron_Knight
I think the guy is just a masochist, Janus. He likes getting owned.
Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Janus Marius
egocentric dipshit with no concept of reality
^ Really though, that's you spot-on. I couldn't have said it better than myself. We're making progress here, DS.
Ahhh and the game of "I know you are but what am I" continues...
Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
I think the guy is just a masochist, Janus. He likes getting owned.
Says the kid who was
A.Owned so much that he was banned from this forum for constant stupidity.
B. Had to lie about his own identity while bitching about it on EOD
Great example there numbnuts

Pyron_Knight
Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh DS. Geee...
If you want keep your identity a secret, you maybe shouldn't have taken the AIM you entered in your TDTD profile here as username for the starwars.com forums. Not so smart.
Of course you can now try to worm out of the situation by stating that it's just a coincidence that you and TDTD not only share the same name but were also born on the same date in the same year. That aside of both not being creative enough to come up with a nice nickname. And of course you can, after this, try to explain to the listening audience why you registered here at exactly the same date TDTD was banned. I'd say the list of coincidence is a little bit too long, eh?
Just because Rex isn't aware of the fact that there are things like dynamic IP adresses out there, doesn't mean this applies to me too.
And DS. I'm not saying "OMG you're a loser for something you did enter past date here". Things do change and so do people. No. I did just notice that you went back to your former trolling routine in the last weeks, littering the board with reallife-flame-attempts and pretty much nothing else. In all honesty I don't care if you do that with Nebaris. I'm not a moderator here. But being bold enough to insult an entire forum community here (the moderators and most user of the EoD - including myself), because just feel the urge to insult Janus? Don't you think that was going a little bit too far?
And wow DS. You're also back to the "I'm not a troll despite I'm trolling - you just don't understand what a troll is" speeches that you err... TDTD used to give when being called a troll. Pathetic.
Darth Sexy
Awww that's so cute. So now you're Janus' and Nai's *****. They've been looking for one and since you had to tuck tail and run from this forum vintage Janus, about time they found one.
Gideon
Originally posted by Janus Marius
When was the last time I said DE Sidious loses a fight when it was unreasonable? Over a year? Two years?
An admission that you have been unreasonable? We are making progress.
It's in your best interest to not lecture on bias, Janus? I've asserted that Sidious was equal to Yoda in combat. In contrast, you asserted and made a veritable campaign that "LOLZ! Dooku is better than Sidiuz!"
Compared to his later self? Certainly. But so are most Force users, so it's really not productive to consign them all as "wusses".
Supporters? Janus, I'm not out to build a cult of social rejects or Star Wars fans for the purposes of glorifying Palpatine. While that mentality might have worked for you, with the Ancient Sith, you'll come to find that not everyone carries your precise degree of obsession.
Janus, the only thing I've attempted to do regarding this Sidious is assert that he is the most powerful of Bane's Order (which, according to the DSSB, he is), that he is the greatest Sith Lord of all time, (which, according to the CVD, he is), and that he's had more of an effect on the Force, directly, than any other Sith we know of (which, according to AotC, RotS, and various supplemental sources, he has).
Inexhaustible patience? LOL, hardly, but to assert that it's quite a bit more than you've demonstrated? That's not a stretch at all, Janus. You immediately "go for the kill" and bait and jab and what have you. I don't. You can't even suffer a discussion via private message because, for some reason, it gets your boxers all in a twist. If you want to pretend that you really do have more patience than myself, you may go ahead and do so. But only one of us has demonstrated such behavior, and it sure as hell isn't you.
Likewise, you're one of the very few who contend that I "bash", Janus, since you and your ilk have a greater reputation for it than I. Tell me, wasn't it Traya (an Antedivulian, no less) who suggested to Lightsnake that he commit suicide? As far as insults, Nai with his flawed Dr. House routine and IKC (the shrine in my profile speaks wonders of IKC) fling them out with reckless abandon. Meanwhile, that you and I disagree is nothing. Nebaris and I disagree all the damn time, but I don't hesitate to point out that he has a gifted mind. I refer to you as "brilliant" on a regular basis. Once again, it's in your best interest to not whine or complain about being bashed. All you do is initiate baiting, and when I finally return it, you somehow can't handle it anymore. If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen.
"Above you"? I'm not the one who asserts on a regular basis that I'm kicking your ass, which -- correct me if I'm very much mistaken (I'm not) -- you've been saying to me every time we debate in the past two weeks?
Oh, joy.
Self-righteous and logically superior? WTF? LOL! What the hell was that little diatribe above with the "you" and "me" translations? I get it. So, you can be 'self righteous and logically superior' and then lecture others on it?
"LOLZ Dooku > SIDIOUS!"
"Marka Ragnos > EVERYBODY! LOLZ!"
"Darth BANDON > OBI-WAN LOLZ!"
Need I go on?
...Which is a nice excuse for shunting off all potential discussions and whatnot. Don't ***** about my opinions if you're not willing to hear them out.
Erm... didn't I concede Yoda versus Sidious? Haven't I conceded to Nebaris? Janus, can you get any of this right, or will I constantly have to come back to correct you?
Gideon
You were totally wrong about the whole character, Janus. You've admitted it, and it's okay. It took more maturity than I thought you were capable of.
I sat at the foot of the master. No one teaches quite as well as you do, Janus.
Well, duh, of course you're a coward. You ran this place with the vaunted "RAGNOS OWNS!" mentality. Lightsnake comes along, and all of a sudden, Ragnos doesn't look all that great. You run off to EoD. Now EoD doesn't give two shits about Ragnos. You come back here every now and then, a place -- according to you -- with no logical ability whatsoever. Then, you run off again. Rinse and repeat.
Meanwhile, at EoD, two administrators were obscenely biased (you'll no doubt try to refute that) and, after I send a mild-mannered private message to you, you reply with a vicious retaliation (I think I might have it saved on my computer, somewhere) and such statements that "Illustrious was utterly right!" (neglecting the common fact that it takes two to argue) and, after you proceeded to bash Sorgo, I decided to tell him how you truly felt and showed him the private messages. So, then, I left. And if you only knew what's happened since, lol.
We can all make room for improvement. Some, Janus, more than others. It's time that we put an emphasis on humor, once again. It reminds me of Nai's constant "Wow, Escape", "Hello, Escape", "Nice one, Escape" that proceeds every single paragraph in everything he's ever written. Some things just aren't funny.
Well, I'm glad you understand.
As far as quotes are concerned, I've been putting up my own little shrine to you. I figure since you've already obsessed over me and whatnot, it would be only fitting to make a mockery out of every single statement you've ever made and put them in my profile for further use against you later.
Well, I mean, come on. You're not exactly giving us any reason to think otherwise.
Janus, denial is but the first stage.
You might as well make a final choice, Janus. You can either try to end this via a discussion, or you needn't post at all. Because, with each post, you make lovely contradictions like above, and I'm getting to the point where I'm having a lot of fun pointing them out. You whine and complain and post and fuss and rant endlessly about my opinions, but you've not made one single effort to try to resolve this. An alternative solution? Whine and complain and post ans fuss and rant endlessly that Escape's a big meanie and just forces his pro-Sidious rhetoric on everyone, mwahahaha.
Please. Otherwise, this is going to end the same way. You going back to EoD, probably brag that you've WTFpwned me and I'm not worth your time, and then you'll come back and repeat the same schtick.
If you really want this to end, there's only one way to do it.
Captain REX
For the love of the forums...
Closed, simply because everyone is complaining about everyone else and slinging accusations back and forth like they've got a barrel full of them.
And I'm aware of dynamic IPs, thank you.
Keep it civil, folks, please.
And for future reference, please report all uncensored images, such as Darth Sexy's use of an image that I have removed. Don't do it again.
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