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I am revisiting the aotc duel and placing the jedi in aotc against dooku but my question is,

would they have done better against dooku if they were in tip top shape.

what i mean bu that is that the jedi had a number of things working against them

heres the list

1) both were exhausted from geonosian battle
2) both had unfamiliar lightsabers
3) anakin ws ticked off becase of padme so that destroyed thier teamwork strategy
4) obi wan was distracted by a wounded anakin
5) they expended a lot of energy to chase dooku down



if none of these factors existed and the aotc team had a fresh start against dooku with thier own lightsabers and they co-operate properly, how would they do?

They would still die.

It wouldn't matter much. Anakin wasn't rash because of Padme so much as it was "all the Jedi that Dooku killed."
Unfamiliar lightsabers is kind of a lame excuse. Sure they may have preferences for their hilts, but any Jedi worth their salt can be extremely proficient with any lightsaber.
Also, the force can help to replenish lost energies and revitalize stamina. Dooku was just too good for them at this point. Had Anakin not just rushed in like that, i believe they would've done better (Anakin did better than OB1 anyway) but would have still been killed.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
It wouldn't matter much. Anakin wasn't rash because of Padme so much as it was "all the Jedi that Dooku killed."
Unfamiliar lightsabers is kind of a lame excuse. Sure they may have preferences for their hilts, but any Jedi worth their salt can be extremely proficient with any lightsaber.
Also, the force can help to replenish lost energies and revitalize stamina. Dooku was just too good for them at this point. Had Anakin not just rushed in like that, i believe they would've done better (Anakin did better than OB1 anyway) but would have still been killed.

Nice idea.

They would have done better? Sure. Oh wait. We've seen in RotS how it went when they tried to attack Dooku together. Obi-Wan was force choked and tossed out of the fight and Anakin did eat Dooku's boot. Conclusion: Dooku was even too good for them 3 years past AotC. And without his attempt to talk Anakin over to the talk side (by telling the young Jedi to unleash his anger), he would again have destroyed them pretty much instead of - literally - losing his head in that situation.

dooku was outclassed in the rots duel

Originally posted by Man of Christ
dooku was outclassed in the rots duel

Oh? When did that happen, huh? When he taunted Anakin into Dark Side instakill mode while not being allowed to actually kill the guy? Whoopie.

You do notice that Dooku could easily have killed Anakin instead of dropping the metal structure on the - already knocked out - Kenobi, considering how Anakin was lying on the ground, defenceless? You do realize that Dooku could have attempted to blast Anakin with force lightning (considering he still fought him with one hand and has used that tactic in various other duels)?

Yup. Sounds much like getting "outclassed". See. I can also "outclass" Babe Ruth when it comes to playing Baseball, when he enters the field sitting in a wheel-chair with both of his arms tied to his back.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh? When did that happen, huh? When he taunted Anakin into Dark Side instakill mode while not being allowed to actually kill the guy? Whoopie.

You do notice that Dooku could easily have killed Anakin instead of dropping the metal structure on the - already knocked out - Kenobi, considering how Anakin was lying on the ground, defenceless? You do realize that Dooku could have attempted to blast Anakin with force lightning (considering he still fought him with one hand and has used that tactic in various other duels)?

Yup. Sounds much like getting "outclassed". See. I can also "outclass" Babe Ruth when it comes to playing Baseball, when he enters the field sitting in a wheel-chair with both of his arms tied to his back.

Oh totally Nai. So lets ignore the novelization for a second. Dooku apparently let Anakin win correct? Oh wait, I guess the novelization and the movie both prove you wrong. I'm glad you're an authority on Dooku's motives or Dooku's mental state but the fight was evident in both the movie and the book. Anakin became enraged and proceeded to wtfpwn Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh totally Nai. So lets ignore the novelization for a second. Dooku apparently let Anakin win correct? Oh wait, I guess the novelization and the movie both prove you wrong. I'm glad you're an authority on Dooku's motives or Dooku's mental state but the fight was evident in both the movie and the book. Anakin became enraged and proceeded to wtfpwn Dooku.

Trying to play the smartass again, Sexy? I've thought that, up to this point in time, you'd have learned that, to play this role with a decent amount of success, you do actually need to be smart. That's why you always utterly fail in your attempts to do the job.

a)
Did I say that Dooku let Anakin win? No? WTF? Then you should probably stop trying to put words in my mouth. I just said that Dooku was obviously not doing all he could to kill Anakin - at least not throughout the entire fight.

b)
The movie proves me wrong? The movie proves what exactly wrong, DS? Does it show Dooku parrying Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously with one hand? Yup. Does it show Dooku controlling the entire fight up to the point where he taunts Anakin to unleash his anger (*hint* force pwning Obi-Wan, kicking Anakin across the place *hint*)? Yeah. Does Dooku waste a nice opportunity to defeat Skywalker by dropping the metal structure on the already knocked out Kenobi? Yup. So what statement of mine is actually proven wrong by the movie?

c)
I don't need to be an authority on Dooku's motives or his mental state. The properties of this fight are written down in the novel. You can't use a source to claim that Anakin is simply superior to Dooku and then ignore the very same source, when it sites something that obviously contradicts your opinion. Of course you can totally ignore the novel and go by the movie. In this case you just have to explain the following things:

1) Why does Dooku obviously control the entire fight when engaging two Jedi, yet he's overpowered by one? Explanation: Anakin was tapping into the Dark Side.

2) Would that have happend if Dooku didn't taunt him to do so? Yes? No? And if not: Would Anakin still have been able to overcome the Sith Lord? And why did Dooku taunt Anakin at all, knowing that this would make his opponent stronger?

3) Why did Dooku decide to perform a totally useless move (burrying Obi-Wan under the metal structure) instead of finishing Anakin off?

4) If Dooku was aware of the fact that this should have been a duel for the apprentice position (as some people here do claim), why does he present his "WTF?" Look, when Sidious orders Anakin to kill the Count? Do you think that Dooku was not aware of the fact that a fight to the death ends with the death of one of the contestants?

Or you can accept the fact that Dooku didn't give Anakin all he could (because of the orders he received from Sidious) and even weakened his own position further by taunting his enemy to use the Dark Side (making Anakin stronger). Of course the Count might have suffered from spontaneous amnesia, so he didn't remember that using the Dark Side will make somebody stronger in terms of combat. Because there is no other explanation why he would taunt Anakin to raise his power-level when he did indeed want to defeat Anakin there.

Originally posted by Advent




But during the one-on-one portion of the duel, where the NEC claims that Dooku was "fighting for his life" is where he was giving his all against Anakin and lost (hence "outclassed".

I actually wanted to type that to justify anakins victory but meh you already done so.

Good to see you again Advent, and thanks for clearing up all of that, I cannot seem to find my copy of ROTS.

Nai, your rants about other people's intelligence (especially after reading Star Wars according to Nai), are downright hilarious. I didn't know Germans could be so humorous.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Good to see you again Advent, and thanks for clearing up all of that, I cannot seem to find my copy of ROTS.


Translation: I don't have the source material which doesn't keep me from talking.



Wow. Considering that you have still not been able to point out any flaw in my argument (the status quo here), and you still keep attempting to play the smartass and flame me, actually just leads to the conclusion that you're even dumber than I previously thought. So, Doofy, do you have anything else to say? Maybe something that is related to the topic of the debate here? Otherwise you can go back to the sand box and built yourself a sweet little castle there, just to find out how it is to have a place where your can open your mouth without holding yourself up to ridicule. I'm pretty sure that will be a totally new experience for you.

LOL @ Doofy. Nai, don't ***** about people flaming you. Your opening salvo in the Sith vs. Jedi thread (which I'm about to address) wastes no opportunity in bashing me. House doesn't condone hypocrisy, Nai.

Edit: Oh, and since you mention source material, this is Anakin Skywalker & Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Count Dooku as interpretted by the screenplay.



So, we have confirmations that Kenobi and Dooku tire as Anakin only becomes stronger. The movie also shows Dooku being pressed back the entire time. And where did Lucas say that Dooku wanted to turn Anakin and went easy on him?

Originally posted by Gideon
LOL @ Doofy. Nai, don't ***** about people flaming you. Your opening salvo in the Sith vs. Jedi thread (which I'm about to address) wastes no opportunity in bashing me. House doesn't condone hypocrisy, Nai.


House doesn't condone idiots either, Gideon. It's pretty obvious that I'm simply flaming Sexy. Every halfway intelligent person in the western hemisphere would be able to understand that. So why aren't you capable of doing so? Holy shit.



Wow. And there is Gideon with the "I pick what suits my opinion" mode again. So the same screenplay that is wrong and illogical, when it tells us that Yoda disarmed Sidious in their lightsaber fight, is good enough to proof your ideas right, when it comes to the Skywalker and Kenobi VS Dooku fight? Hooray. Either use everything present in a source or don't use the source at all.



In the RotS commentary, from the point on, where Anakin and Dooku engage in a saber duel.

Lucas: "The main issue here is I put Dooku in after Darth Maul was killed to establish that the Emperors assistant or the other Sith could take Jedi and convert them."

Goddamn it. That is the main issue for that particular scene, according to George Lucas himself. And you do want to deny it, still trying to parade around everything - with the exception for the movie itself and Lucas own words - as proof that you're correct with your opinion? You fail once again. The fact remains that Dooku can't go all out on Anakin (which means that he's even ready to kill the dude), while trying to convert him to the Dark Side at the same time, which is what he was trying to do, according to Lucas himself.

Originally posted by Borbarad
House doesn't condone idiots either, Gideon.

The other House fanboys probably told you that when you tried to join their forum, Nai. Though it is really telling that you didn't deny the accusation of being a hypocrite.



Yes, Nai, catch up. That's why I called you a hypocrite.



The formula is still strong here, I see. Holy shit. Wow. I can still do it. Holy shit.



Once again, very telling that you didn't try to argue the point. Meanwhile, as for Yoda vs. Sidious, Yoda disarmed him, owned him with his lightning, and let him go for no reason. That's the problem I had. You keep spitting out more irrelevant misdirections than ever. Desperation is an ugly thing.



LOL, Nai, no one said that Dooku couldn't own Anakin with the Force or that he went into the fight with the desire to kill him. What we said was that he couldn't (and didn't) beat Anakin with a lightsaber.

Careful, man. Nai's on his House/Mengele spree; he does this every six months after he leaves with his tail between his legs.

Oh I can tell. I'm already really impressed.

Originally posted by Gideon
Yes, Nai, catch up. That's why I called you a hypocrite.


Give me a call when you've understood the concept of "flaming", Gideon.



The "problem" you had is irrelevant as was your quote. I was merely pointing out that you can't criticize a source and then use it again because you're just happy. And thanks for dodging the point I made by accusing me of dodging the point.



Okay. I'll explain it for the three-year-olds around here: Dooku didn't went into the fight with the desire or intention to beat Anakin, because he wanted to convert him to the Dark Side. Got that so far? I hope so. Now, given that he didn't want to defeat or kill Anakin, how can you conclude from his performance there and then that he wasn't able to do it?

He never tried to do it. That's the entire point here. He went into the fight with the command to get capture by Skywalker. He, even at the climax of their confrontation, wants to convert Anakin instead of defeating him (according to Lucas own words). That directly contradicts the novels interpretation. He can't be trying to convert him while wanting to kill him at the same time. So where does he try to overcome Anakin, Gideon? The right answer is: nowhere

Hence your pitty conclusions are simply false. And on a side-note: now you can go back to the beginning of that "debate" here. What did I say? I said that Dooku was still too much for them in RotS. And what? You admit that Dooku is quite superior in force mastery and I talk about Dooku going "all out" on his opponents. Now Gideon. Tell me what would happen if we repeat that match with the same setup, but this time with Dooku wanting to kill both Jedi at any cost instead of attempting to convert Anakin? Would Obi-Wan and Anakin win?



At least, I have a tail between my legs that I can leave with, Grace. And please don't forget to mention Goebbels in your next "Nai's a Nazi" flame.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
There is no point in continuing to try to convert someone when you know that if you don't kill them first, they will kill you.

Oh wait, Susan. Now you're telling me that it doesn't make sense trying to convert somebody when you know that the guy can kill you. Okay. So, reversing that statement, this means that Dooku didn't think that Anakin could be a threat for him before telling him to use his anger and hatred? Thanks for confirming my line of thought.



Allright, Sally. So after 10 years of training their respective forms, their skill in them is "mediocre". Additional 3 years of training do suddenly turn them into saber gods. Yap. And because they are "mediocre" in the forms, which they trained for 10 years, it makes much sense for them to turn away from that forms and towards other forms. Notice: If you can't do one thing right, you better do a second thing wrong - old Jedi rule.



What "point" are you talking about? You effectively tried to tell me that it is impossible to retain a "clear" mind, while using the Dark Side. So by this logic, anybody using the Dark Side must be somehow mentally deluded while doing that. But let me make it easier for you. Can you read?

his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

Read that. So...what is Anakin "using" here? Correct answer: terror and rage, which are "out in the fight". Can it be that "rage" normally isn't use by a Jedi for fighting? Yes? So what is Anakin using here? The Dark Side maybe? Yes? Thanks for reading.



What in the blue hell is your problem? Let me once again try the "explanation for children" way: We know that Dooku's intention is to turn Anakin to the Dark Side. I see that you have understood the concept so far. Now: How is Dooku supposed to convert Anakin to the Dark Side without having Anakin utilizing his dark feelings?

So. Can it be that Dooku wanted Anakin to use the Dark Side there? Obviously, yes. So what was the intention of Dooku's words: Insulting Anakin? Or making him tap into the Dark Side?



Okay. At any given sunday, Luke will freak out and this will enable him to defeat Vader. Vice versa: If Luke doesn't freaks out, Vader would most likely destroy him with superior training, skill and experience.

And this is precisely what we have in the Anakin-VS-Dooku fight. Anakin freaks out, which enables him to defeat Dooku. Any given sunday. Can he do that in every situation or can it be that Dooku's superior training, skill and experience will lead to the destruction of Skywalker in a lightsaber fight?



You aren't the brightest light that ever shone, are you? Yes, Dooku advices Anakin to utilize the Dark Side because of wanting to convert him and because he thrusts Sidious, who promised that he will interfere and have Dooku leave the ship alive, should anything go wrong. Dooku didn't have any reason to assume, that Skywalker could beat him before he taunted Anakin into using his anger and hatred considering that both Jedi together weren't able to do the job.

So Dooku, no matter what, did never try to defeat Skywalker, at least not before taunting him to give into his dark feelings. My entire point is that, leaving this entire plot apart, in an all out fight RotS Dooku would still defeat RotS Anakin and RotS Kenobi, because he would use all the chances he got to get rid of Skywalker. It is really that easy.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Give me a call when you've understood the concept of "flaming", Gideon.

Note to all bystanders: this is Nai's not-so-clever way of soliciting minors online. He initiates a flame war, offers his characteristic retarded/hypocritical/bullshit arguments, and once the kitchen gets too hot for the chef here, he leaves little lines like this. No, Nai. I have no intention of "calling" you. Assuming your reading comprehension has improved over the years, I'm told that Pedophilia 101 by Michael Jackson is the book for you.



No one dodged anything, Darth Nai, though I appreciate the black and white mentality. The problem you bring up is that the scenario with Yoda and Palpatine had a legitimate complaint. If you can account for Yoda disarming Yoda, pwning him with his lightning, and then jumping away for no reason (allowing Palpatine to attack him once again), we'll talk. Until then, it's an irrelevant misdirection.



Ah, I see. Because intentions don't change given the circumstances? Say, aren't you the one who said that Dooku held his own against Yoda, even though the Jedi was unwilling to kill Yoda, visibly held back during the duel, and made it specifically clear to Mace Windu that he wanted to "bring in alive"? Aren't you the one who paraded and suggested they're on par? Double standards galore.



Right, so Dooku let himself die. I guess it doesn't matter then, since Dooku clearly has a death wish.



No one denied Dooku's superior Force mastery and no one is saying that the exact outcome would happen again, Nai. But I guess that's Nazi logic for you.



Thanks for the suggestion. I'm sure he was a personal hero.


Edit: LOL @ Dooku trusting Sidious. He feared him, respected him, perhaps admired him. But "treachery is the way of the Sith" was running through Dooku's mind before the duel started. He's a complete and utter moron if he trusted Sidious.

Originally posted by Gideon
Note to all bystanders: this is Nai's not-so-clever way of soliciting minors online. He initiates a flame war, offers his characteristic retarded/hypocritical/bullshit arguments, and once the kitchen gets too hot for the chef here, he leaves little lines like this. No, Nai. I have no intention of "calling" you. Assuming your reading comprehension has improved over the years, I'm told that Pedophilia 101 by Michael Jackson is the book for you.

Aww, Gideon. I'd really love to read a book that you praised to me but I really don't think I want to dig into the secrets of your childhood. So pardon me, if I'd rather stick with Goethe, Schiller, Shakespeare or Poe. Those are authors in case you don't know. I'm just telling you that because, considering all the time you must waste with skimming through SW literature, you might have missed the people who don't write in that particular field.



I know that the concept of reasoning escapes (!) you, Gideon. But, okay. So Anakin doesn't tire while Obi-Wan and Dooku do. Effect on the fight? Apparently none, since Dooku keeps kicking Obi-Wan and Anakin's sorry asses across the place with his superior force abilities. Even less effect since the same story mentions that Dooku simply removes the effects of being tired out by shortly tapping into the Dark Side reviving himself.

Effectively, all you can do with that statement is argue that Anakin could possibly wear down Dooku in a long lasting lightsaber battle. Which has no effect on this debate since my entire point is that Dooku could saber or force rape Anakin at any given time, if he hadn't entered the fight with the command to get capture and the intention to convert Skywalker.



And more ammunition from the Gideon realm of fiction about Nai Fohl. Impressive. No, Gideon. I was the guy that pointed out that Yoda would have thrashed Dooku when being confronted with the ridiculous assertion that the upper limit of Yoda's power is shown when he prevents Anakin and Obi-Wan from getting smashed by those metal structure. This to a point where I was commonly referred to as "Yoda fanboy" by certain people (see Kun VS Yoda / Revan VS Yoda debates). So apparently, I am not the person you are thinking about. But nice try.

And to answer your initial question: Yes. Intentions can change given the circumstances, Gideon. The point is that this supposes "change of intention" could just have happened after Dooku taunted Anakin into using his hatred and anger. That gives Dooku 12 seconds (in the movie) to realize Anakin using the Dark Side might be dangerous, change his intention from "converting" into "killing" before Anakin cuts his hands off. Either that simply didn't happen, because Dooku was confident that Sidious would prevent him from getting killed anyway or Dooku, for some unknown reason, didn't develop the idea that he could simply force rape the guy in front of them.



No, because once more, he was either under the impression that Skywalker wasn't a serious threat for him or thrusted Sidious.



I advised you to use Goebbels in your next Nazi flame. You've failed again. And can you please tell me what you're arguing here if you consider it possible that Dooku might defeat the Jedi if not entering the fight under the same circumstances (which was pretty much all I claimed) ?



Oh sure. I celebrate Hitlers birthday every year. In fact it's that date I went to my confirmation.



And nonetheless he looked like a puppy who received the newspaper beating of a lifetime when Sidious ordered Anakin to kill him. It's quite obvious that he didn't expect that to happen.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Aww, Gideon. I'd really love to read a book that you praised to me but I really don't think I want to dig into the secrets of your childhood.

Not your best, Nai. Surely you've been indoctrinated on how to turn insults around better than this.



Is that your hostile way of bringing me to task because I proved you wrong about the Ancient Sith, Palpatine, and et cetera?



Oh, but NAI! YOU CAN'T USE MATERIAL FROM THE NOVELIZATION! YOU CAN'T PICK AND CHOOSE! LOLZ!

I can do that too.



Rape Anakin with the Force? Sure. With a saber? Perhaps if Anakin were disarmed, bound, and willing to partake in such an event.



Nice try? A brilliant success. Got you to admit that you're a Yoda fanboy.



I make room for the possibility that Dooku didn't think to summon his Force powers. After all, this is the same selfish, deceitful, violent man who -- when disarmed and at the mercy of Skywalker -- couldn't summon the common sense to expose Sidious for what he was. He's not exactly the most accepting and adaptable of personages, Nai.



That would be where I mentioned earlier: "egotism".



I want time to break it in, Nai. All good things come in time. I'm here because you initiated the argument earlier about Anakin's victory over the Count. Something that I used as rationale for his superiority over the other fighters. I came to debate it.



Sounds like you. SS uniform come in the mail, yet?



Maybe because he just got his ass kicked by someone, what? A fourth his age and experience? Someone whom he was disgusted and repulsed by?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh wait, Susan. Now you're telling me that it doesn't make sense trying to convert somebody when you know that the guy can kill you. Okay. So, reversing that statement, this means that Dooku didn't think that Anakin could be a threat for him before telling him to use his anger and hatred? Thanks for confirming my line of thought. Well you can try to twist my words all you want. It doesn't make you cool and it doesn't make you right. If you could properly read, as you seem to so keen on everyone else doing, you would have noticed that I said continue trying to convert, when that that person is trying to kill you, and has the ability to do so rather quickly. Nice try though.


Originally posted by Borbarad
Allright, Sally. So after 10 years of training their respective forms, their skill in them is "mediocre". Additional 3 years of training do suddenly turn them into saber gods. Yap. And because they are "mediocre" in the forms, which they trained for 10 years, it makes much sense for them to turn away from that forms and towards other forms. Notice: If you can't do one thing right, you better do a second thing wrong - old Jedi rule.
Dude, really, the chick names are coming off kind of fruity. It's not funny, cynical, or even clever. It has no bearing on the argument nor does it make me think you're right. In all actuality, it's pretty lame.

Can you prove when, after Ep1, OB1 started using his form? He sure as hell didn't use it in TPM, and he trained in that form a lot longer than he did in form 3. Anakin, whose powers "have doubled" (although that was not completely accurate) could have, and did grow exponentially in his saber techniques. The proof of this is, in AoTC, he got his arm chopped off and in RoTS, Dooku lost his hands and his head. As for OB1, he obviously got better, cause Dooku never once penetrated his defenses in RoTS. He had to resort to the force. And you still haven't proved they used their chosen forms.

Originally posted by Borbarad
What "point" are you talking about? You effectively tried to tell me that it is impossible to retain a "clear" mind, while using the Dark Side. So by this logic, anybody using the Dark Side must be somehow mentally deluded while doing that. But let me make it easier for you. Can you read?

his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

Read that. So...what is Anakin "using" here? Correct answer: terror and rage, which are "out in the fight". Can it be that "rage" normally isn't use by a Jedi for fighting? Yes? So what is Anakin using here? The Dark Side maybe? Yes? Thanks for reading.
Exactly, there was no rage or terror in his mind, which would have been the presence of the darkside. His mind was clear of all emotions and distractions.

Originally posted by Borbarad
What in the blue hell is your problem? Let me once again try the "explanation for children" way: We know that Dooku's intention is to turn Anakin to the Dark Side. I see that you have understood the concept so far. Now: How is Dooku supposed to convert Anakin to the Dark Side without having Anakin utilizing his dark feelings? Ok great. That's what he wanted, but that
s not what he got. Had he gotten Anakin to give into the darkside, the fight would have been over and he would still be alive. And the last person i give a shit about trying to insult me, is you. You have to matter to me first. And sadly, you don't.

Originally posted by Borbarad
So. Can it be that Dooku wanted Anakin to use the Dark Side there? Obviously, yes. So what was the intention of Dooku's words: Insulting Anakin? Or making him tap into the Dark Side? Use the darkside and giving into it, which is what he wanted, are different. Had he given in, he would have "become an agent of evil." Unfortunately for your boyfriend Dooku, that didn't happen.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Okay. At any given sunday, Luke will freak out and this will enable him to defeat Vader. Vice versa: If Luke doesn't freaks out, Vader would most likely destroy him with superior training, skill and experience. Agreed. But he still had love for his son and didn't want to kill him, which is different than your backstabbing master telling you not to kill someone and then having to fight for your life after you've decided to kill. Wasn't his fight with Anakin his "crowning achievement?"

Originally posted by Borbarad
And this is precisely what we have in the Anakin-VS-Dooku fight. Anakin freaks out, which enables him to defeat Dooku. Any given sunday. Can he do that in every situation or can it be that Dooku's superior training, skill and experience will lead to the destruction of Skywalker in a lightsaber fight? But the point you're obviously missing is that Anakin didn't "freak out." He stayed in control, he held back and was still pwning him, and then simply had to "decide" to win. He didn't freak out or go berserk, he outclassed Dooku as he would normally do at this point in time.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You aren't the brightest light that ever shone, are you? Yes, Dooku advices Anakin to utilize the Dark Side because of wanting to convert him and because he thrusts Sidious, who promised that he will interfere and have Dooku leave the ship alive, should anything go wrong. Dooku didn't have any reason to assume, that Skywalker could beat him before he taunted Anakin into using his anger and hatred considering that both Jedi together weren't able to do the job. He thrusted Sidious? Well shit, I'd turn on him too. Two don't always work better than one, as proved by this encounter. He was holding back and still forcing Dooku on the defensive. And it said that he knew half way through the fight that he was set up. And no, you 2 watt light bulb, he never, let me repeat, NEVER advised Anakin to use his fear. He simply said, "YOU DON'T USE THEM." You can try to twist that too into what you would take that to mean, but in the literal sense of what he said, he never said he should use those feelings.

Originally posted by Borbarad
So Dooku, no matter what, did never try to defeat Skywalker, at least not before taunting him to give into his dark feelings. My entire point is that, leaving this entire plot apart, in an all out fight RotS Dooku would still defeat RotS Anakin and RotS Kenobi, because he would use all the chances he got to get rid of Skywalker. It is really that easy. Apparently not, and you have still yet to prove that.

And i thought all you AFC boys' main objective was to "rid these boards of fanboyism!!!!" yet you're on Dooku's dick like a rubber. Hmmm, that's strange, isn't it?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Sorry. If you don't want to talk about the funny doctor games you were playing with your uncle, it's your choice. Not that anyone here did want to read anything about it anyways.

Jesus Christ, LOL. You go from borrowing comments by ACstyles and Nebaris to borrowing my own jokes about pedophilia. You lose points for originality, Nai.



LOL @ the thirty-year-old Nazi who trolls internet forums, makes assertions, loses, leaves the aforementioned forum, pops in his DVD collection of House, waits six months, comes back, rinse and repeat calling anyone a nerd.



LOL @ the thirty-year-old Nazi bringing up how I "pick and choose" from the script, being refuted, and yet when I bring up how he picks and chooses from the novelization, he accuses me of dodging the point.



LOL @ the thirty-year-old Nazi using Nick Gillard as a source, something he used to scoff at doing, proving himself to not only be a thirty-year-old Nazi with no life, but a hypocrite as well. Might as well call him SS Captain Vice for his appalling lack of virtues.



LOL @ the thirty-year-old Nazi being called a "Yoda fanboy" by his cabal of friends on the internet, calling me a Sidious fanboy, and then throwing a hissy fit and listing a bunch of pejoratives, never mind the fact that he himself has been called each one numerous times himself.



LOL @ the thirty-year-old Nazi not realizing that twelve seconds is practically an eternity for a clever, experienced warrior with Force enhanced reflexes in an attempt to provide cosmetics to Dooku's total screw up. Also LOL'ing at the fact that the same Nazi has yet to provide a valid excuse for Dooku's silence.



LOL @ the thirty-year-old Nazi making excuses for Dooku's lack of regard that inevitably caused his death; also LOL'ing at his apparent ignorance of "irony".



LOL @ the thirty-year-old Nazi making excuses for Dooku's lack of regard, precaution, and understanding of the dark side's effects on those who even briefly tap into its strength, even though Dooku was a Sith Lord for thirteen years.



LOL @ the thirty-year-old Nazi not accepting that that rage became an integral part of Anakin's makeup. It wasn't just a "temporary" fix. Fighting with rage makes one an overwhelming opponent for the dark side; why would Palpatine be urging Anakin and Luke to use it if it was just temporary? He wants the strongest apprentice, as per Lucas's own words according to the commentary.



LOL @ the thirty-year-old Nazi slip further along down the path to total retardation by bringing up "the boyfriend" jokes that haven't been seen since Nai's grade school days.



He's being completely abandoned, Nai. He ****ed himself over and no one's going to save his ass.

Originally posted by Gideon
Jesus Christ, LOL. You go from borrowing comments by ACstyles and Nebaris to borrowing my own jokes about pedophilia. You lose points for originality, Nai.

Oh? You have your "own jokes"? Geez. I have to admit that this must be the biggest revelation I've seen from you here - not that this means anything. And talking about "originality" when the only two words you seem to be capable of using are "House" and "Nazi" is simply hilarious. ROFLMAO.



Do you want to make my head explode, Gideon? You can't even possible imagine how frustrating it is to lecture you about the art of flaming in detail to just find out about five minutes later that this has been a complete and utter waste of time. So what now? Did I leave the forum to watch my DVD collection of House, or did I keep stalking you here? Stop contradicting yourself. On a sidenote: Points taken for not being able to come up with a proper defense for being called a nerd. More points away for "House" and "Nazi" again.



Oh look. Who did bring up the script here? You or me? Let me see. It was that guy called Gideon. Okay, pumpkin. Did I react to what you've quoted? Yes, sir. Did you keep on dodging the point with some lame excuses with generally involve the words "Nazi" or "House"? Yap. You do. The third pitiful attempt to do so - what a surprise - also didn't get you anywhere.



And here we have a story of Gideon's famous "Nai Fohl myths", children. As you can see, Gideon desperately wants me to have generally scoffed at Nick Gillard as a source. And - like it's the case with all other Nai Fohl Myths that Uncle Gideon keeps ranting about - this also has never happened. Yes, Gideon. I refuted Nick Gillard as a source on ocassion. You remember that days, when he said that Cin Drallig could defeat everybody in the SW mythos, that Vaapad doesn't exist. But before you fill your entire pillow with tears, (and though I now you will come with the "YOU DON'T PICK YOUR SOURCES" again, let me change that statement:

"As we can all see in RotS, Anakin, without being in that perfect Dark Side controlling status, commonly refered to here as 'the z0ne' can't even take Obi-Wan Kenobi. Neither with a lightsaber, nor with force powers."



So far for the Gideon side of the story, which is only linked to reality by the fact that Gideon appears in both of them. Well. I make it especially easy for you, little one. "I was called Yoda fanboy" =/= "I am a Yoda fanboy" =/= "You did proof I'm a Yoda fanboy".



And now, Gideon is sharing all his experience as a trained combatant with us. So Gideon. How often, in all your years of being a famous lightsaber combatant, have you been in a fight where you simply underestimated an opponent (because he was inferior to you before) and then he suddenly used his Dark Side force power to surprise you? Oh what, Gideon? That has never happened, because you aren't a skilled lightsaber combatant, as we're debating a fictional issue here? My-oh-my.

Simply look at the fight between Sidious and the Jedi coming to arrest him. There are nine seconds passing from the point he pulls the lightsaber out and six seconds from the point he ignites it to the point where he kills his first opponent. So Gideon: If 6-9 seconds aren't enough for some of "the finest swordsmen the order has ever produced" to assume a defensive stance or react in any other way to a Sith Lord who comes flying at them with an ignited lightsaber in his hand - how can 12 seconds be eternity then for Dooku?

Oh right. Either those Jedi aren't thinking with superhuman speed, are plain and simply too stupid to react or - another suggestion - the fights we see aren't shown in "real time", which might be the most logical explanation, considering the usually move with speed "to fast for the eye to see", "lightning fast", "so fast that the movement is invisible" etc. pp. Gosh.



Look. He still doesn't get it and still wants to argue with me. First read, then think and after that - if you're capable of crossing the personalized version of the Chinese wall, that the second step might be for you - post.



The fun factor really keeps raising. So now you're telling me, that just getting angry enough to go berserk (as Luke did in RotJ) is the same thing as utilizing you anger and hatred in a controlled manner to archieve certain goals. I want to get that straight: Luke "Baseball bat swinging" Skywalker, to you, is the exact same thing as Anakin in RotS while defeating Dooku? Ahahahaha!

On a side note: Despite of his permanent "uber DS skillz" he's not able to take out Obi-Wan Kenobi? I can almost smell all the more fun incoming here.



Oh sorry, dude. That was the revenge for not inviting me to your coming-out-party. And of course you're "haha! Nazi!" is all the way more mature and funny. But really. All that little teenage anger is - well...it's delicious. It's like a little mini-meal between lunch and dinner. Quite frankly, it's all I can do not to grind pepper on your head.



You can go on with ignoring the circumstances until you get blue in the face, Gideon. It doesn't change them and neither does it change the fact that by ignoring them, you turn your personal interpretation into an even greater joke. And one has to say that this is an outrageous work, considering that you've - by now - already put Anakin in RotS to baseball-bat-action-RotJ-Luke level and turned some of "the finest swordsmen the Galaxy has ever seen" into mere jokes. Some more of that, and you'll probably manage to talk them all down to a level, where C-3PO walks in and mutilates them with a riding crop. With "laughable ease".

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
You see, here's the difference. With OB1 - HE WAS IMMERSED IN THE DARKSIDE!!!!!!!!!!! With Dooku, which yielded a completely different outcome, he was not. Plus, OB1 and Anakin knew each other more intimately than Dooku ever could, so it would make sense for the fight to last longer, and with Anakin not thinking clearly, it was possible for OB1 to beat him. And I think Dooku would tire more quickly than OB1 in a lightsaber battle after OB1 defends all his attacks.


My God, Darth Subjekt. Let me try to make it very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very clear to you: The entire debate here is circles around the question if Anakin permanently recides in the very same state he was in at the point he beats Dooku. If that's not the case - and you claim here yourself that it is not - then we can't use that state he was in, as his "regular", "normal" or "any given time" state. Meaning: He just doesn't get into that very same state each and every time he ignites his lightsaber.

That was the entire point here. Okay?

And if you accept that premise, then it can very well be the case, that Dooku beats Anakin in 9 out of 10 lightsaber duels.



Did I quote Lucas on how Dooku was attempting to convert Anakin, a comment given to the very moment where Dooku "taunts" him? Yes. The entire point here, once again explaining it for you, was that Dooku didn't went all out on Anakin throughout the entire duel. Going by the fact, that he still wants to convert Anakin during their saber-lock, the only time left for him trying all he can is the time from there to the second he loses his hands. Can you agree with that?



Apparently you once more didn't get it. I was commenting on the fact that the action as descriped in the novel (which you used as basis for your argument) can't have happened in the time that does pass between the "taunt" and the end of the duel in the movie. Plain and simple.



No, Sir. My point is - still - that while wanting to convert Anakin (beginning of the fight until the "taunt" scene), Dooku couldn't have wanted to hurt or kill Anakin at the same time (thus not going all out against the young Jedi) - because that would, obviously, have been counter-productive to his "goal" which is to convert Anakin.

Originally posted by Borbarad
My God, Darth Subjekt. Let me try to make it very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very clear to you: The entire debate here is circles around the question if Anakin permanently recides in the very same state he was in at the point he beats Dooku. If that's not the case - and you claim here yourself that it is not - then we can't use that state he was in, as his "regular", "normal" or "any given time" state. Meaning: He just doesn't get into that very same state each and every time he ignites his lightsaber.

That was the entire point here. Okay?

And if you accept that premise, then it can very well be the case, that Dooku beats Anakin in 9 out of 10 lightsaber duels. You can't speak for his state of mind every time he ignites his saber, nor can you prove his state of mind was different after "the taunt." And my other point was, if he was using the darkside, and was better than Dooku, who is always fueled by the darkside, then with them being on an even keel, Anakin is simply better. And i would put Anakin beating Dooku 9 out of 10 times.



Originally posted by Borbarad
Did I quote Lucas on how Dooku was attempting to convert Anakin, a comment given to the very moment where Dooku "taunts" him? Yes. The entire point here, once again explaining it for you, was that Dooku didn't went all out on Anakin throughout the entire duel. Going by the fact, that he still wants to convert Anakin during their saber-lock, the only time left for him trying all he can is the time from there to the second he loses his hands. Can you agree with that? I can agree that he wanted to convert Anakin, but never at the expense of his own life. If he was that dense to allow that to happen, then he's obviously not where he needs to be in order to beat Anakin. And as the novel states, and there's nothing to indicate that this contradicts the movie, Anakin was holding back, i.e. not going all out on Dooku the entire time, either. So, what happened in the last 12 seconds, could have happened in the first 12 seconds if Anakin was going all out.



Originally posted by Borbarad
Apparently you once more didn't get it. I was commenting on the fact that the action as descriped in the novel (which you used as basis for your argument) can't have happened in the time that does pass between the "taunt" and the end of the duel in the movie. Plain and simple. How can be so sure? You can't use "normal human" standards to judge Jedi and Sith in a fictional realm.



Originally posted by Borbarad
No, Sir. My point is - still - that while wanting to convert Anakin (beginning of the fight until the "taunt" scene), Dooku couldn't have wanted to hurt or kill Anakin at the same time (thus not going all out against the young Jedi) - because that would, obviously, have been counter-productive to his "goal" which is to convert Anakin. That still doesn't prove that he could've beaten Anakin.

If Dooku beats ROTS Anakin itd have to be early on in the fight. thatd be his best hope.

just as a matter of interest though Nick Gillard says Anakin beats Dooku by suckering him with his sword arm. he also says Dookus big weakness in that fight was that hes already beaten Anakin before so is quite confident he can do it again. so basically he was overconfident.

suckering him, what?

he dupes him.. he offers Dooku his sword arm.. and Dooku goes for it, and then Anakin has him. and hes able to do this because Dookus confident he can take Anakin. this is what Gillard says in the making of ROTS.. nothing to do with the novel. ill find the exact quote tonite.

If you watch the duel, they're fighting and Anakin makes a move, grabs his hands and lops them off. He didn't pause and offer his own hand. It happened too quick.

And besides, how much say does NG have on the plot anyway? Fighting levels and styles, sure, but the storyline? Hmm...

its when he dupes him he gets the chance to grab his hands. Nicks in charge of the fight choreography, so u cant say hes just making that up. hes also in charge of fighting levels and styles like u sed. and thats what we're talking about here isnt it??

Heres exactly what it says in reference to the Anakin/Dooku fight on page 141 of the Making of ROTS:

"All of this is deconstruction," Gillard says of the films increasingly complex lightsaber battles. "They are always in check. If you get in check, you have to move out of it, which makes the moves much more complicated. It means that if you want to arrive at an end move, it might take you 15 moves prior to that to get there. Just like chess. You start feinting and offering up parts of your body to try and tempt them. Anakin is offering his sword arm to Dooku, and he falls for it- and he knows as soon as Anakin draws his hand back, that it's all over. Its much more than a swordfight. The mental game that's going on is just as important as the moves. Dooku's weakness is that he's already beaten Anakin- and he's pretty sure he can do it again."

That doesn't mean he just sits there with his arm sticking out waiting for Dooku to grab for it. Watch the fight, it was near instantaneous. Anakin flat out pwned Dooku. That's all there is to it.

And Escape, good foresight about Nai. You must have Jedi powers.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
That doesn't mean he just sits there with his arm sticking out waiting for Dooku to grab for it. Watch the fight, it was near instantaneous. Anakin flat out pwned Dooku. That's all there is to it.

And Escape, good foresight about Nai. You must have Jedi powers.

I appreciate the sentiment. But don't deride the statement from Nick Gillard, because it proves that overconfidence was Dooku's weakness.

Well that's still a weakness that cost him his life that a Jedi Anakin didn't have. Doesn't matter how you slice it, Anakin beat Dooku. Whether it was by Dooku's own hubris or whatever, Anakin didn't make the same mistakes and knew to capitalize on any mistake there was.

Out of curiosity, does the novel refer to any trickery in Anakin beating Dooku? I don't recall Lucas say anything along those lines in the commentary either. Ah well, Dooku's dead.

no ones saying Anakin didnt beat Dooku fair and square.. and its not about trickery exactly.. thats what happens in swordfights, you have to anticipate your opponents next move.. but everyone has different strengths and weaknesses in different fights..

Anakins strength in that particular fight was that he let go of his raw power and stopped holding back, and "decided to win." Dookus weakness in that particular fight was that he completely underestimated what he was up against.

As for Lucas im sure he must discuss how the fights go with Nick Gillard. including the mental aspects of the fights.

I'm sure he does to an extent, but I was always under the assumption that his decimation of Dooku was to display how powerful he was. Like no matter what, Dooku couldn't have done anything to change the outcome of that fight.

Oh, and for the record:

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
You can't speak for his state of mind every time he ignites his saber, nor can you prove his state of mind was different after "the taunt." And my other point was, if he was using the darkside, and was better than Dooku, who is always fueled by the darkside, then with them being on an even keel, Anakin is simply better. And i would put Anakin beating Dooku 9 out of 10 times.


First: Sorry for my absence. Work.

Second: I might repeat my point once more or rather point out a single thing in your statement. As you've said: Dooku is always "fueled by the Dark Side" which naturally boosts his combat abilities. Anakin, on the other side, is not. That was the entire point here. We can't assume that Anakin goes "berzerk" in any confrontation and we can't assume that he's going past that (into "the z0ne" to an even lesser extend.

Third: There are rules for VS issues. We're comparing abilities here while the rest is ignored. And what is the result? The result is that Anakin has no reason to be angry at the beginning of the fight and far less to even get more angry . On the other hand, Dooku has no reason not to take Skywalker seriously as an opponent and also no motivation of converting him.

So the battle will always start with Lightside Anakin and Sith Lord Dooku. What is going to happen? Of course Anakin might get angry over time. But I really doubt that he will get angry enough to defeat Dooku before the Sith Lords kills him. I mean what: Asajj Ventress and Obi-Wan Kenobi, who are pretty much nothing in comparison to Dooku both have managed to almost kill Anakin in RotS days .

And we're still just arguing lightsaber combat here (for whatever reason that was). Going all out on Anakin, Dooku could simply pwn him with his superior force ablities. Not even Gideon would deny that.



Excuse me. But if you want to use the novel, please use it correctly. The "holding back" refers to Anakin holding back his emotions and nothing more:

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

See? And there we are back at the point above: Anakin is skilled enough to pose a threat for Dooku in lightsaber combat, which nobody did deny. The point is that Dooku still had the ability to throw Anakin off balance, after being completely surprised - as the novel claims - by Anakin and Kenobi having "faked forms". Because he did knew the weaknesses of Djem-So. And he also is powerful enough to engage Anakin in a saber lock, which happens in both the novel and the movie - for a rather long amount of time. And this all after having fought against the two Jedi together.



I may ask once more: Since when do Jedi think with superhuman speed? Is there any instance you can present where they were force-speed-thinking? No? Then you should probably assume that they work like every human being in that regard. In fact most of the SW stories wouldn't make much sense if the opposite was true.



Gosh.
How shall I prove something regarding a completely speculative issue, dude? There is no factual evidence that Dooku could beat Anakin. Yet there is also no factual evidence to the contrary, if we put them against each other, assuming the conditions of a VS fight .

Well then if you agree that Skywalker can defeat Dooku in a lightsaber battle, Nai, then that ends the argument. No one denies that Dooku can clearly school Anakin with the Force.

Originally posted by Borbarad
First: Sorry for my absence. Work.

Second: I might repeat my point once more or rather point out a single thing in your statement. As you've said: Dooku is always "fueled by the Dark Side" which naturally boosts his combat abilities. Anakin, on the other side, is not. That was the entire point here. We can't assume that Anakin goes "berzerk" in any confrontation and we can't assume that he's going past that (into "the z0ne" to an even lesser extend. I see what you're saying, and agree. So then, for all we know, the way he was with Dooku could be how he is normally. In this particular scenario, it just didn't matter because the end result was him killing Dooku. So we agree, then?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Third: There are rules for VS issues. We're comparing abilities here while the rest is ignored. And what is the result? The result is that Anakin has no reason to be angry at the beginning of the fight and far less to even get more angry . On the other hand, Dooku has no reason not to take Skywalker seriously as an opponent and also no motivation of converting him. Agreed. And also, since he performed such abilities, without us knowing his status quo, we can assume he can call upon these at anytime. However, being that this is AoTC Anakin and OB1 (honestly, i forgot that, haha) they still won't win and I agreed with that from the start. I just said they could do a bit better. But still lose.

Originally posted by Borbarad
So the battle will always start with Lightside Anakin and Sith Lord Dooku. What is going to happen? Of course Anakin might get angry over time. But I really doubt that he will get angry enough to defeat Dooku before the Sith Lords kills him. This is just something we won't agree on. Anakin is not your average Jedi that'll just get mowed over by Dooku. As hotheaded as Anakin gets, we don't know how long it would take for him to reach "teh z0n3" provided that isn't his natural dueling state - something neither of us can prove.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I mean what: Asajj Ventress and Obi-Wan Kenobi, who are pretty much nothing in comparison to Dooku both have managed to almost kill Anakin in RotS days .

And we're still just arguing lightsaber combat here (for whatever reason that was). Going all out on Anakin, Dooku could simply pwn him with his superior force ablities. Not even Gideon would deny that. Not that familiar with his Asajj fight so I won't comment, but with OB1, he was nowhere near level headed or what we could call his normal manner. Sure his "skill" went up to a 9 after the darkside, but when that's at the expense of clear judgement, he may as well be a level 5.



Originally posted by Borbarad
Excuse me. But if you want to use the novel, please use it correctly. The "holding back" refers to Anakin holding back his emotions and nothing more: Which, as we know, fuel his prowess.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread. So even before he was using his "fury" and emotions, i.e. darkside, he was still driving Dooku back. That's what my point was, that he dominating the fight without being fueled by the darkside.

Originally posted by Borbarad
See? And there we are back at the point above: Anakin is skilled enough to pose a threat for Dooku in lightsaber combat, which nobody did deny. The point is that Dooku still had the ability to throw Anakin off balance, after being completely surprised - as the novel claims - by Anakin and Kenobi having "faked forms". Because he did knew the weaknesses of Djem-So. And he also is powerful enough to engage Anakin in a saber lock, which happens in both the novel and the movie - for a rather long amount of time. And this all after having fought against the two Jedi together. And Anakin is still skilled enough to push the offensive to the point of worry to Dooku without being fueled by the darkside. Didn't the AoTC novel (I don't have it so integrity would be appreciated) say that Dooku was really tired after his encounter with Anakin? Basically cause Anakin was more than he anticipated?



Originally posted by Borbarad
I may ask once more: Since when do Jedi think with superhuman speed? Is there any instance you can present where they were force-speed-thinking? No? Then you should probably assume that they work like every human being in that regard. In fact most of the SW stories wouldn't make much sense if the opposite was true. Again, I see what you're saying, but how long does it take you to get mad? If I'm at work and I even think about someone hurting one of my kids, I get mad immediately. Not to the point beyond control, but I think you get what I mean. Think about someone raping your mom, sister, girlfriend/wife - whatever the case. You'd get mad right? Well imagine seeing that - how long would it take you to get insanely angry? Less than 12 seconds? It'd be instantaneous for me. And with Anakin, who is a hot head anyway, and is easily angered, it wouldn't take him that long to get pissed. Unless of course you're not referring to him getting mad, and talking solely about the amount of action, period.



Originally posted by Borbarad
Gosh.
How shall I prove something regarding a completely speculative issue, dude? There is no factual evidence that Dooku could beat Anakin. Yet there is also no factual evidence to the contrary, if we put them against each other, assuming the conditions of a VS fight . That's why we have these debates and use other encounters/conflicts as evidence and character basis. So then really, we're back to square one and saying that we can't prove who would win. Ok... now what? That, however, isn't the issue. The topic is AoTC Ani/OB1 in prime form vs Dooku, in which case they last a little longer, but still lose.

And yes, I agree that in a pure force fight, where Anakin isn't allowed to even touch a saber, that Dooku would tool him. Not because Anakin is weaker, cause technically he's stronger than everyone, but because his knowledge and mastery of the force pales in comparison to Dooku.

Bump for Nai #1.