Sith Force Tournament

Kotor3

Originally posted by Gideon
Round One:

a.) Darth Malak, Darth Traya, and Exar Kun in a curbstomp.

b.) I'm not familiar with the extent of Zannah's powers, though it seems evident that Maul isn't nearly as powerful, can he resist her energies?

c.) Caedus, likely. While he hasn't exhibited extremely potent Force mastery, to my knowledge, he has been stated to have a great spectrum of Force techniques at his disposal. I'm not sure to what degree, though, he'd defeat someone of Lumiya's caliber.

d.) Skywalker, Nadd, and Sadow in a battle in relative ease.

Gideon I am a little confused by your analysis.

Darth Malak defeats Dooku but who does he face Traya or Kun?

Who does Zannah face Vader or Ulic?

Caedus does he face ROT Bane or Darth Revan?

Skywalker does he face Nadd or Shadow?

DarkSerpent

Originally posted by Kotor3
Gideon I am a little confused by your analysis.

Darth Malak defeats Dooku but who does he face Traya or Kun?

Who does Zannah face Vader or Ulic?

Caedus does he face ROT Bane or Darth Revan?

Skywalker does he face Nadd or Shadow? Yeah, well shut up. Or getg-asskick

Gideon

Kotor3

Originally posted by Gideon
Erm... oh, lol. I didn't get your set up at all.

It is similar to the setup that I made in the thread saber combat tournament.

Round 2
Winner of Dooku vs SF Malak faces winner of Kreia vs Kun
Winner of Maul vs Zannah faces winner of Ulic vs Vader
Winner of Caedus vs Lumiya faces winner of ROTS Bane vs Darth Revan
Winner of ROTS Sidious vs DE Luke faces Winner of Nadd vs Sadow

Round 3
All four face each other all at once.

Sorry for the confusion, I hope that helps.

DarkSerpent

Master Crimzon

You all know this is DE Luke, right? As in... not uber force god Luke? Plus, he hadn't displayed Emerald Lightning by that point. I'm personally unsure if he can beat Palpatine.

DarkSerpent

Oh, then he still beats him, and loses standard tournament to Kun or Vader.

Master Crimzon

You're joking, right? Kun and Vader can beat DE Luke, but Sidious can't?

... yeah. Considering that Sidious is more powerful than either of them, you make no sense.

Kotor3

Master Crimzon, my setup which you and Enaylus had no problem understanding in a previous thread that I made seems to be confussing.
I would like to hear your opinion on who would win.

Enyalus

First, I'm going to assume that after each fight, they are allowed to rest until the next round.

Round 1:

Malak & Kun.
Zannah & Vader.
Caedus & Bane (although I almost went with Revan).
Luke & Sadow

Round 2:

Kun.
Zannah.
Bane.
Sadow.

Round 3:

Kun wins.

I don't think I need to do too much explaining with this. Let me handle the most controversial fights:

Exar over Malak because Kun can pretty much disintegrate Malak with his amulets, not to mention he has displayed much more versatility. I picked Zannah over Vader due to her Force Horror ability (or whatever it is). Vader is almost always an emotional wreck. I think it would be extremely effective against someone like him. Bane over Caedus because Bane's lightning has really shown no upper limit to the damage it can do (the whole, rage fueling the Dark Side and Dark Side fueling the rage loop that Zannah points out). Sadow over Luke because the only relative Force feat Luke displays in DE is being able to tank an AT-AT laser with his Force Shielding. Sadow's amulet, I believe, is stronger. Not only that, but his knowledge base is far more vast. I'm positive he'd be able to do very nasty things to Luke.

Round three? Bane presumably knows how to counter Zannah's fear attack. Kun and Sadow's amulets are the same, so they cancel - however, Kun has shown a higher variety of Force abilities.

Ta da.

Jbill311

The Caedus Fanboy in me wants to disagree, but I can't see him blocking Bane's lightning with any sort of consistency. 3/10 times, maybe. He has Skywalker blood to power his defenses, and an incredibly diverse arsenal of force powers, as shown by his use of the 'blood trace' and various mindwipes/illusions he has preformed. IF, IF he can block Bane's lightning, then his own significantly powerful lightning, or his mastery over telekinesis might make up for the lack of offensive Force powers (compared to Bane).

If Caedus gets past Bane, and the rest of your fights turn out the same, he will face:
Kun.
Zannah.
Sadow.

Caedus is compared to Vader, who was incredibly strong. I really don't see Zannah posing any threat.

I don't know much about Sadow, so I won't argue for or against him, but you say that he has amulets similar to Kun, with Sadow's being the weaker of the two. Kun's amulets gain in power throughout the duel, and I don't see Caedus tanking them for very long. With speed, luck, and a bit of cunning, he might get the others to team up on Kun to take out the biggest threat. Kun is his biggest competition.

I say Caedus takes it 5/10 times, but he has trouble (or is incapable) of surmounting Bane.

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Enyalus
. I picked Zannah over Vader due to her Force Horror ability (or whatever it is). Vader is almost always an emotional wreck. I think it would be extremely effective against someone like him. Now, your telling me that zannah's sith spell that worked on non force sensitives is going to work on vader, which by your own admission, TK attacks that might even surpass that of sidious and the fact that he is nearly as powerful as sidious?

Vader doesn't get "emotionally wrecked" during fights, or he would have gotten killed several times.

Besides if he DID get "emo" during a fight, his force sensitive opponents would sense that and actually take advantage of the situation.

NonSensi-Klown

I agree.

Vade only seems to get emotional when fighting people who remind him of his past, like Luke. He has no idea who Zannah is, and even if he did the character's personalities don't come into play in vs. fights.

Faunus

Originally posted by Jbill311

I don't know much about Sadow, so I won't argue for or against him, but you say that he has amulets similar to Kun, with Sadow's being the weaker of the two. Kun's amulets gain in power throughout the duel, and I don't see Caedus tanking them for very long.Sadow had the exact same amulets.

DarkSerpent

If Zannah's Horror ability comes into play, then Revan's similar but more powerful(Insanity, and yes gameplay this gameplay that blah blah just hear me out) version should be able to dominate most of the people here.
I said most, not all,most.

Even if he didn't know in KOTOR he would've definitely known and probably used it(Kavar stunned a room full of soldiers, which was situation that was like Order 66, except he survived it) several times.

Random question, exactly how much did the PT Jedi know about the force? It seems that only the absolutely most powerful of them knew any remarkable force powers. While Bandon had the ability to at the very least put three Jedi(or soldiers or whatever) in a similar spell with a wave of his hand. The Jedi of the PT era just got slaughtered and couldn't defend themselves with the force. Kavar got pretty(Don't bring in the surprise deal, Mundi realized what was happening and couldn't do anything about it) much in the same situation and handled it quite easily.
Malak uses a Stasis Field and effortlessly turns a three-on-one to a one-on-one(Yes, I know that neither Bastila nor Carth are upper-tier but niether are those that Zannah targets) and could've sliced Revan up when he force whirlwinded him.

So if you count Zannah's Horror ability, you have to count Revan's ability to do the same but to a greater effect.

Plz don't compare Zannah to Revan to try to disprove what I have said.

Oh and the "He only showed this in-game, there's no PROOF that he ever did outside it" he was one of the most powerful Sith of that Era, if not THE most powerful, a ability that could easily be learned before he even knew who he was and still thought he was who the council programed him to be. So I don't see any problem for him to use this in battle.

Oh, and where did Vader Crush that tank, I know it happened, but I can't remember when.

Mizukage Yoda

^this man makes great sense

DarkSerpent

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
^this man makes great sense Sarcasm... or Honesty...

I don't know, considering it's from you.

Enyalus

Bane essentially taught Zannah that ability, so I'd assume he'd know how to defend against it. Caedus wouldn't have that advantage, so if he made it past Bane, I don't see him faring as well. Also, the reason for the quotes around my "Kun's" amulets comment...is because they were initially Naga Sadow's amulets. Centuries after Sadow's death, Freedon Nadd gives the amulets to Kun, and everyone refers to them now as Kun's amulets. But yes, they are the exact same thing. Furthermore, since they were initially Naga's, he'd probably be able to control its power much better than Kun was shown to.

smile

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Now, your telling me that zannah's sith spell that worked on non force sensitives is going to work on vader, which by your own admission, TK attacks that might even surpass that of sidious and the fact that he is nearly as powerful as sidious?

Vader doesn't get "emotionally wrecked" during fights, or he would have gotten killed several times.

Besides if he DID get "emo" during a fight, his force sensitive opponents would sense that and actually take advantage of the situation.

Zannah not only uses it on non-force sensitives, but also on a Jedi Knight and a mildly Force sensitive user. (Maybe others...I don't recall offhand.) And there's really no reason to think that it wouldn't work against Vader, considering he's never attempted to defend against something like that before. He gets emotionally wrecked during his battle with Obi-Wan, and with Luke.

As for Mr. Blaxican's comment about him only getting 'emotional when fighting people who remind him of his past,'

"What could you hate enough to destroy me?"
"Myself."

Maul to Vader during Resurrection. Now, I know that he did know Maul, but they were hardly close. The point is that he walks around with this emotional baggage all the time (The Emperor says so in...The Rise of Darth Vader, I believe). So, yes...Vader loses to Zannah. In my opinion. Don't like it? Make your own list up. stick out tongue

Problem is that he's matched against Bane in the first round. The same Bane who has studied Revan's holocron inside and out, as well as read both of Revan's books. Meaning, he almost certainly knows how to combat such abilities - unique as they may be. Which is why I gave Bane the battle.

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Enyalus

Zannah not only uses it on non-force sensitives, but also on a Jedi Knight and a mildly Force sensitive user. (Maybe others...I don't recall offhand.) And there's really no reason to think that it wouldn't work against Vader, considering he's never attempted to defend against something like that before. He gets emotionally wrecked during his battle with Obi-Wan, and with Luke.

So because it works on a mild force user it will work on vader. Just what exactly makes you think vader is going to start clawing his eyes out(lol how can he do that when hes behind a mask) when he could simply attempt to combat the creature that is not there?

He would know it was a sith spell used by zannah and just because he has never been shown to defend against these techniques, it doesn't mean he can't.

Nomi sunrider, vaders inferior in the force department at least was able to counter sith spells and illusions rather easily so i don't see why vader, a DARK lord of the sith wouldn't be able to do the same.

About vader being an emo bag, do you think he would not had improved over the next 19 years or is he still going to be so emotional for that long?

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Sarcasm... or Honesty...

I don't know, considering it's from you.
Honesty I'd use a smile if I was being sarcastic.

DarkSerpent

Revan>Bane

Bane may know of the techniques, but defending against them is something different. Let's remember that most of what Revan puts in the Holocron is dependent on the strength of the wielder.

He's not exactly a weak wielder of the force either. He resisted Malachor V through sheer force of will, something nobody else could do. The only other person to escape its corrupting effects was the Exile and we all know how that turned out. I doubt Bane would be able to defend against an assault from Revan in the Force(which is what matters in this thread) and he has never had (with the possible exeption of Kas'im but that was mostly saber so not applicable to this thread) to kill anyone of Revan's caliber in direct confrontation.

Revan most likely mastered other techniques than what was in is holocron and Bane's sources of knowledge seem pretty limited in comparison to the Vast collection Revan had at his disposable.
Malachor V in its entirety, Korriban's secrets and tombs were mostly unplundered until his Empire came to be, virtually all the Jedi Masters of that time, and various other forbidden knowledge from other worlds.
Revan's Empire couldn't have been limited to just those. HK-47 and Bao-Dur both state that there were many Sith Strongholds that they could've been coming from and it was doubtful that the Republic got them all.

Bane had nowhere near this variety to choose from, and most of Korriban had been plundered and spread throughout the galaxy by his time, and neither one of them had access to the ancient libraries of Arkania.

Revan wins against him in a force fight, 7.5/10.

DarkSerpent

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Honesty I'd use a smile if I was being sarcastic. Where was I most right and effective at?

@Big S
Of course he will be that emotional, the Sith get their power from Passion(a.k.a emotion) were as Jedi get similar but slightly less strength from clarity.

One of the main weaknesses of the Sith is that they get so dependent on rage and hatred.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
So because it works on a mild force user it will work on vader. Just what exactly makes you think vader is going to start clawing his eyes out(lol how can he do that when hes behind a mask) when he could simply attempt to combat the creature that is not there?

He would know it was a sith spell used by zannah and just because he has never been shown to defend against these techniques, it doesn't mean he can't.

Nomi sunrider, vaders inferior in the force department at least was able to counter sith spells and illusions rather easily so i don't see why vader, a DARK lord of the sith wouldn't be able to do the same.

About vader being an emo bag, do you think he would not had improved over the next 19 years or is he still going to be so emotional for that long?

I already gave my reasoning for his loss to Zannah.

Bane's probably the Sith'ari. He's got displays which put him near or above ROTS Sidious, who was the most powerful Sith Lord in history. That means that Bane > Revan. Also, yeah, knowing the techniques means knowing how to use them and how to defend against them. stick out tongue

Especially for someone as thorough as Darth Bane.

DarkSerpent

Enyalus, you seemed to have ignored the rest of my post.

Noway in hell Bane's the Sith'ari(Unless you mean that as the Sith Language's way of saying Sith Lord) Anakin is the Sith'ari. Or more likely than Bane Palpatine is the Stih'ari.

Every canon source has Anakin as the Chosen One/Sith'ari.

Enyalus

The Chosen One isn't the same as the Sith'ari. And yes, it's either Bane or Palpatine. A lot of people think Bane though, because of his founding the new Sith Order.

DarkSerpent

Sith'ari was said to make the Stih stroger than they had ever been, then destroy them.

Great Vengeance

Originally posted by Enyalus
I already gave my reasoning for his loss to Zannah.

Bane's probably the Sith'ari. He's got displays which put him near or above ROTS Sidious, who was the most powerful Sith Lord in history. That means that Bane > Revan. Also, yeah, knowing the techniques means knowing how to use them and how to defend against them. stick out tongue

Especially for someone as thorough as Darth Bane.

Dont flaunt Sids being the strongest like its a fact that could be used in a debate. There is no definate proof, even LS and Gideon who are both entirely devoted to supporting Sids will admit that fact.

And putting Bane as the Sith'ari is very questionable. Not that being the Sith'ari is an auto win anyways.

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Dont flaunt Sids being the strongest like its a fact that could be used in a debate. It IS a fact you moron. But that doesn't mean there are people who can't beat his ROTS incarnation.

Darth Exodus

Round 1:
Malak and Kun
Zannah and Vader
Caedus and Bane
Sidious and Sadow

The two contraversial things here are that Bane would beat Revan and Sidious would beat Luke.
Bane has shown much more force showings than Revan and more powerful. The only things that Revan has been shown too use are Choke, Force Bomb and Force storm and while the latter is impressive, Bane kicks her ass in Lightning showings (disintergration). Also as Of this point Sidious hasn't shown us major usages of the Force, but enough to put him above DE Luke ( who has pretty much Zero experience in force battles).

Round 2:
Kun
Vader
Bane
Sadow ???

Kun would beat Malak with the amulets or Ebony lightning, Vader beats Zannah with his Tk (also I think he once used Horror in comic but that might be non-conon), Bane beats Caedus by overpowering him and Sadow might be able to beat Sidious if he has the amulets plus mastery of them

Round three

Bane or Sadow.

It depends on whether Bane can Tank the blasts or not.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Kotor3
Rules only the force can be used.

Round 1
Dooku vs SF empowered Malak Kreia vs Kun

Maul vs Zannah Ulic vs Vader

Darth Caedus vs Lumiya Bane vs Darth Revan

ROTS Sidious vs DE Luke Nadd vs Sadow

Round 2
Winner of Dooku vs SF Malak faces winner of Kreia vs Kun
Winner of Maul vs Zannah faces winner of Ulic vs Vader
Winner of Caedus vs Lumiya faces winner of ROTS Bane vs Darth Revan
Winner of ROTS Sidious vs DE Luke faces Winner of Nadd vs Sadow

Round 3
All four face each other all at once.

I was bored, so I figured I'd deal with the stuff here.

Dooku vs. SF Empowered Malak- Tough one. I would put Dooku over Malak any day in Malak's regular state; his displays of force power more than rival Malak's, such as being able to cause Ventress tremendous internal pain (without killing her). His mastery of Makashi and dueling in general is far more detailed and lauded than Malak's swordplay- the Star Forge may empower Malak considerably, but we can't gauge the exact level of empowerment it will give him. Therefore, I give Dooku this fight.

Kreia vs. Kun- Kun in a curbstomp.

Maul vs. Zannah- Honestly, Maul would own her in a lightsaber duel, but her Sith illusions may give him a rough life. Maul's never displayed great ability to defend against them, so I have to give Zannah the nod.

Ulic vs. Vader- Any incarnation of Vader wins, but I'd assume this is RotJ Vader.

Caedus vs. Lumiya- Caedus. Definetly.

Bane vs. Darth Revan- Bane. Orbalisks, studying of Revan's holocrons, in addition to far more known saber and force ability should give him the automatic win.

RotS Sidious vs. Luke- DN Luke WILL win, but by Dark Empire? He may be a master swordsman, but he was absolutely owned by Sidious in a duel when they fought. Granted, that was DE Sidious, but I really doubt the difference between the incarnations is that large. Luke may be a beast even by that point, but his command of the force isn't even comparable to Sidious, who, by RotS, could summon up lightning that nearly overpowered the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known' (who is a far more masterful, experienced in actually blocking lightning, and is likely faster), caused Mace Windu, whom despite using his Vaapad- something that Luke can't use, and possessing a physique Luke could only dream of, to get overpowered. Sidious also launches planet-devastating rituals (Sithisis), clouded the force from the eyes of the Jedi through his sheer presence and dark side power, and summoned incredible levels of speed in lightsaber combat- he's also a 'master of every weapon and every form' by that point. Luke isn't. My money is on Sidious in this fight, but I'm not -that- much of a Luke expert. I do know that he's only godly during NJO, DN, and LotF. Not DE.

Nadd vs. Sadow- Sadow.

Dooku vs. Kun- Kun will win via amulet blasts, even if Dooku is, IMO, the superior lightsaber user.

Zannah vs. Vader- Vader, certainly. He has superior telekinesis, force, and power feats, and is, quite a simply, a stronger and more skilled swordsman. He beats Zannah.

Caedus vs. Bane- Damn, this is a hard one. But my money is on Bane taking this fight, if only due to these godamned orbalisks.

Sidious vs. Sadow- Sidious is more than fast enough to dodge the amulet blasts at long range, and has a more versatile and lethal command of dark side attacks. He beats Sadow.

Kun vs. Vader vs. Bane vs. Sidious- Either Bane or Sidious got this. Sidious is the most powerful person here, being the most powerful Sith in history. However, Bane has... the godamned orbalisks (I will continue saying that). That should give him a shot, especially while fighting multiple combatants... ugh. Yeah, it's a split between Sidious and Bane.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Bane has shown much more force showings than Revan and more powerful. The only things that Revan has been shown too use are Choke, Force Bomb and Force storm and while the latter is impressive, Bane kicks her ass in Lightning showings (disintergration).
If Bane was so powerful than why was he hesitant to unleash all the knowledge that Revan possessed?

He himself said that some of the techniques Revan knew were too dangerous to try. This says a lot. (Source: DB: POD)

Also do you think that Bane can over-power Revan through Force Lightning? Thats a wishful thinking. Keep in mind that Revan can unleash his Force Lightning Storm on him and this dark side technique is indeed the Force Lightning in its highest degree. (Source: KOTOR)

Let me remind you once again that mainly through knowledge and wisdom imparted by Revan, did Bane managed to change the future of the Sith and became one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the history of Star Wars. In other-words, Revan indirectly helped the Sith to get back on their feet once again after a long time.

Enyalus

Crimzon, I'm beginning to seriously doubt your command and comprehension of the English language. stick out tongue

Sith Force Tournament

What's the bolded word imply? Saber skill is a non-factor.

Kotor3

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If Bane was so powerful than why was he hesitant to unleash all the knowledge that Revan possessed?

He himself said that some of the techniques Revan knew were too dangerous to try. This says a lot. (Source: DB: POD)

Also do you think that Bane can over-power Revan through Force Lightning? Thats a wishful thinking. Keep in mind that Revan can unleash his Force Lightning Storm on him and this dark side technique is indeed the Force Lightning in its highest degree. (Source: KOTOR)

Let me remind you once again that mainly through knowledge and wisdom imparted by Revan, did Bane managed to change the future of the Sith and became one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the history of Star Wars. In other-words, Revan indirectly helped the Sith to get back on their feet once again after a long time.

I like how you make Revan look good. big grin

Great Vengeance

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
It IS a fact you moron. But that doesn't mean there are people who can't beat his ROTS incarnation.

Prove up then, moron. Quotes from third party in-universe characters and vague bullshit quotes are not going to fly btw.

Also En designated ROTS Sids as the most powerful so you agree with me. Not that DE Sids is proven to be the strongest either.

Tangible God

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Dont flaunt Sids being the strongest like its a fact that could be used in a debate. Something about Lucas calling Sidious the #1 most powerful Sith... Iunno, I could be mistaken. The guy has a way of saying things that don't make sense.

Great Vengeance

Originally posted by Tangible God
Something about Lucas calling Sidious the #1 most powerful Sith... Iunno, I could be mistaken. The guy has a way of saying things that don't make sense.

Nah its a myth. If somone actually provides proof of this then I stand corrected, but Ive never seen anyone prove it. And LS or Gideon would be flaunting this quote like it was the second coming if it actually existed.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Enyalus
Crimzon, I'm beginning to seriously doubt your command and comprehension of the English language. stick out tongue

Sith Force Tournament

What's the bolded word imply? Saber skill is a non-factor.

is that correct u? i meam im right im sure. so shutup troll.

Oh, and my command of the English language is perfection.

Holy shit, though. I didn't notice all that. Silly me. I'm too lazy to repost my analysis of the fight, though.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Nah its a myth. If somone actually provides proof of this then I stand corrected, but Ive never seen anyone prove it. And LS or Gideon would be flaunting this quote like it was the second coming if it actually existed.

Narrator from Death Star: "The Emperor was completely in concert with the Dark Side of the Force. He was the most powerful sith who had ever lived."

There's plenty more establishing superiority. The only one with power enough to achieve the long awaited Sith goal-paraphrasing, only one powerful enough to tame the Dark Side...

Palpatine as the time is about as close to face as you get now.

Lightsnake

Oh, and Vader in the force tears Zannah apart. What does she have exactly...sith illiusions? Which she can't use unless the opponent has no defense and needs to wait for an opponent's distraction in a real fight?

Vader beats her by far

Enyalus

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
is that correct u? i meam im right im sure. so shutup troll.

Oh, and my command of the English language is perfection.

Holy shit, though. I didn't notice all that. Silly me. I'm too lazy to repost my analysis of the fight, though.

I forgive you since you're foreign scum. wink

@ LS: There's nothing to suggest that she needs an opponent to be distracted. She just needed time enough to move her fingers without having Sarro chop her in half.

Master Crimzon

Originally posted by Enyalus
I forgive you since you're foreign scum. wink

Pfft. America sucks. Foreigners for da win!

Lightsnake

If she could rip through a Force shield, one would assume she'd do so when Johun was giving her a chance to leisurely block them and Sarro decided to showboat by rearing up, twirling his saber around himself and then leaping forward.

Available evidence is against Zannah

Enyalus

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If she could rip through a Force shield, one would assume she'd do so when Johun was giving her a chance to leisurely block them and Sarro decided to showboat by rearing up, twirling his saber around himself and then leaping forward.

Available evidence is against Zannah

I don't know what possible evidence you're using. Your very explanation of events contradicts your conclusion. She explicitly says that Sarro was open to other forms of attack (either the Horror spell or some other Sith sorcery) if she had the time to use it. She doesn't. Just because she knew where Johun was going to be attacking, allowing her to easily block, does not mean that she had the time to get the spell off inbetween parries. She does not have that kind of superspeed. So it's irrelevant if it was obvious where the strikes were coming from, since she can't block them and summon the spell at the same time.

Furthermore, she's fighting two opponents at that time. So, what, she uses the spell against Sarro and allows herself to be cut down by Johun in the time it takes to do it? Right.

You gotta let this whole Bane and Ancient Sith hatred go. I'm not Nebaris or Illustrious. Because I occasionally pick them to win, does not mean I'm a fanboy blind to obvious details.

Great Vengeance

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Narrator from Death Star: "The Emperor was completely in concert with the Dark Side of the Force. He was the most powerful sith who had ever lived."

Nope, the knowledge of the narrator is limited to the characters involved. There were not any ancient Sith in Death Star, and Palpatines knowledge of them is not complete. Besides that, it would not be reasonable to think that Palpatine had an honest opinion of himself.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Nope, the knowledge of the narrator is limited to the characters involved. There were not any ancient Sith in Death Star, and Palpatines knowledge of them is not complete. Besides that, it would not be reasonable to think that Palpatine had an honest opinion of himself.
The omniscient narrator is an out of universe source. It is not subject to that sort of fallibility unless a retcon occurs. In other words: It's a godly voice stating a fact. End.
Nor is that from Palpatine's POV.
And Palpaitne's 'knowledge of them isn't completely?' Fun how indications are that his knowledge of them is totally complete and he had control of their spirits at points.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't know what possible evidence you're using. Your very explanation of events contradicts your conclusion. She explicitly says that Sarro was open to other forms of attack (either the Horror spell or some other Sith sorcery) if she had the time to use it. She doesn't. Just because she knew where Johun was going to be attacking, allowing her to easily block, does not mean that she had the time to get the spell off inbetween parries. She does not have that kind of superspeed. So it's irrelevant if it was obvious where the strikes were coming from, since she can't block them and summon the spell at the same time.
'Superspeed?' She uses it in a heartbeat when Sarro takes a quick look behind him.

Moreover, there's a point where Sarro is not attacking or doing anything but showboating. He rears up, grins and twirls his saber before leaping leaping forward after Johun leaves. Zannah just readies herself.
That's what we call 'time to use it.' This'd take more time than quickly looking behind you. And quite frankly, I doubt Zannah's assertion that Sarro's training leaves him vulnerable to her other forms of attack. She knows precisely nothing of Sarro's training or ability beyond sabers

Or she uses that and then blocks and kills Johun-like we doubt she could.

Frankly? No. No, I won't let my irritation of them go so long as they remain the awful, 1-D characters they are with nothing more than talentless hacks who wouldn't know subtlety unless it hit them in the face writing about them substituting power ups and action scenes for 'character' and having a legion of people clamoring on about them like they're the best thing ever.

And frankly, I'll hold a special little grudge against Bane because he bordered on actually interesting in Jedi vs. Sith, as did the entire setting and scenario. With the exception of Kopecz, Karpyshyn managed to screw up the entire era, situation and characters to the point where they ceased to be even SLIGHTLY interesting with his "Screw continuity, I'm an ARTISTE!" attitude.

In the Force, Zannah's shown us little beyond using Sith sorcery on an exhausted, distracted opponent and a Chiss terrorist and a spell of concealment. As far as available power goes, Vader takes her without much trouble.

At least until the third Bane novel has her annihilating stars for disrupting her nap.

DarkSerpent

@ LS
fu

Gideon

Great Vengeance

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The omniscient narrator is an out of universe source. It is not subject to that sort of fallibility unless a retcon occurs. In other words: It's a godly voice stating a fact. End.
Nor is that from Palpatine's POV.
And Palpaitne's 'knowledge of them isn't completely?' Fun how indications are that his knowledge of them is totally complete and he had control of their spirits at points.
Look
The 'omniscient' narrator is limited to what can be known, seen, thought, or judged from a single character's perspective.

And I can play that game too. Look at the quote about Ragnos in which he is stated as the most powerful of the most powerful. If the narrator has knowledge beyond the characters in his work, than the narrator wouldnt be limited to a certain timeframe either. So when the narrator says Ragnos is the most powerful of the most powerful, that is conclusive evidence according to your reasoning, of Ragnos being more powerful than Sidious and indeed more powerful than anyone else in the SW universe. But all this is meaningless since your reasoning is flawed.

Great Vengeance

Originally posted by Gideon
LOL. I love how quick you are to try to dodge the issue.

Im not dodging the issue. If you see a flaw in my reasoning than point it out, otherwise dont be upset because Im raining on your parade of Sidious being the god of SW.

Gideon

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Im not dodging the issue. If you see a flaw in my reasoning than point it out, otherwise dont be upset because Im raining on your parade of Sidious being the god of SW.

I'm not fond of double standards. I'm a Sidious fanboy and Sidious is a 'god of SW!!1!' because I correctly proclaim him to be the pinnacle of Sithdom... yet you, who has absolutely no evidence that Revan is anything approaching uber will state that you believe him to be stronger?

Let's be honest here. At least I have evidence. Which makes my arguments... many, many, many times better than yours. wink

Taven

LOL at Lightsnake's inane ramblings. I'd really love for the claim that Bane is a "1-D character" to be substantiated, considering we see him in a variety of more roles than almost any character in the mythos (student to teacher, follower to leader, combatant to master manipulator), see the entire development of his character realistically and properly fleshed out (where unlike that of most Sith, his path to the darkside is almost a constant struggle, with him constantly questioning the evil actions he takes, and the person he's becoming), and witness him shift through numerous different states of mind as the plot expands (from outright pathetic at times, to the more assured character he later becomes). Hell, even his relationships with the other characters are better explored and fleshed out than almost any other character in the mythos with the time frame we're dealing with (his relationship with Githany, and Kas'im), especially in comparison to other Sith. I'm sorry Lightsnake but you can whine about how perfect he is and how much you hate that about him all the time, but that doesn't change the fact that there are many elements to his character and Drew K writes him with more creativity and brilliance than any other author has with their respective characters.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Look
The 'omniscient' narrator is limited to what can be known, seen, thought, or judged from a single character's perspective.
If it's describing something happening from their point of view, yes. Unfortunately, it's stating a mythos fact. There's more to back it up and considering Palpatine's knowledge of the Ancient Sith is complete...

Yeah, it's a funny thing that said quote happens to commenting on the time frame. The 'Now he is dead and two explorers' thing would kind of indicate that it's not applying to 'of all time'

Actually, it's not since you're taking a quote meaning to that specific time and applying it to the entire mythos whereas the Palpatine quotes are meant to apply to 'ever.'

That, and by all available evidence, Palpatine>Marka. By far

Great Vengeance

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If it's describing something happening from their point of view, yes. Unfortunately, it's stating a mythos fact. There's more to back it up and considering Palpatine's knowledge of the Ancient Sith is complete...

Nope the narrator has no authority to state a mythos fact about characters which arent involved in the story. And Sidious' knowledge of the ancient Sith isnt complete, dont be ridiculous. To have a complete knowledge it would be necessary for him to look back in time, and I rather doubt he has this ability.

Your own interpretation. There is nothing in the actual quote which states that the narrator only meant the ancient Sith. "Marka Ragnos was the Dark Lord of the Sith - the most powerful of the most powerful." Sorry, but its cut and dry.

Again there is nothing in the actual quote suggesting the narrator only meant the ancient Sith. The only way your argument would hold any water is if the narrator was limited to the knowledge of his characters. Oh damn there goes all your Sidious quotes.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Nope the narrator has no authority to state a mythos fact about characters which arent involved in the story. And Sidious' knowledge of the ancient Sith isnt complete, dont be ridiculous. To have a complete knowledge it would be necessary for him to look back in time, and I rather doubt he has this ability.
Oh, right, because you say so, of course? The omniscient narrator has NO right to state a fact when the fact ISN'T from Palpatine's POV-killing your point. Moreover, YEAH his knowledge is complete. He kind of has access to all their spirits and knowledge. Canon, sorry.

Except the whole 'And now he is dead' and the most powerful quote is in PTAST TENSE

Use the whole quote or not at all. This is dishonesty by omission.

Do explain the whole 'now he's dead and two travellers' arrive thing

Except the quote you use only covers up to Ragnos's time.
While the Palpatine quote covers....all time.

Sorry, dear

Great Vengeance

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not fond of double standards. I'm a Sidious fanboy and Sidious is a 'god of SW!!1!' because I correctly proclaim him to be the pinnacle of Sithdom... yet you, who has absolutely no evidence that Revan is anything approaching uber will state that you believe him to be stronger?

Let's be honest here. At least I have evidence. Which makes my arguments... many, many, many times better than yours. wink

Edit: Yeah, forgot about Ragnos, too. Gotta love Ancient Sith fanboys... they provide great entertainment. For the record, there is a timeframe that attaches to Palpatine "...most powerful Sith ever" or "most powerful Sith in history" > a statement that applies for Ragnos.

Revan has many feats which are impressive, and there are many characters who imply he has great power. Ragnos is considered godlike by all of his era in a time when the Sith were prospering and the principals of natural selection were in full effect. Is this conclusive? No, but Im not fond of double standards either and your arguments are no more conclusive.

And I already addressed the timeframe issue to LS.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Revan has many feats which are impressive, and there are many characters who imply he has great power. Ragnos is considered godlike by all of his era in a time when the Sith were prospering and the principals of natural selection were in full effect. Is this conclusive? No, but Im not fond of double standards either and your arguments are no more conclusive.

And I already addressed the timeframe issue to LS.
No, you haven't. Frankly, you've ignored the entire quote.

Moreover, quantify Revan's feats. Impressive? Yes. Any direct and actual canon on them? And when was Ragnos considered even REMOTELY 'Godlike?' He kept guard by having a loyal cadre and playing factions against one another

Great Vengeance

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, right, because you say so, of course? The omniscient narrator has NO right to state a fact when the fact ISN'T from Palpatine's POV-killing your point. Moreover, YEAH his knowledge is complete. He kind of has access to all their spirits and knowledge. Canon, sorry.

It doesnt matter if it isnt from Palpatines POV. Once again, the 'omniscient narrator' is limited to the knowledge of the characters. This is how fiction novels operate, I already supplied a link to you that explains it all very clearly and you still miss the point. And discovering the knowledge of the ancient Sith isnt going to tell him anything about the power levels of the ancient Sith, which is the most relevent point.

A statement being in past tense is irrelevent when told by an omniscient narrator, as the narrator(according to your logic) has knowledge of the entire mythos and timeline and the narrator himself is outside the actual timeline.

I dont remember the entire quote off hand but it hardly matters whether it is in past tense or not, for reasons I explained above.

What is there to explain?

Nope, not when its told by the narrator. He is not part of the universe and so not part of the timeline. And if he isnt limited to knowledge of his characters like your faulty reasoning suggests, than he is capable of making objective observations on the whole mythos.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
It doesnt matter if it isnt from Palpatines POV. Once again, the 'omniscient narrator' is limited to the knowledge of the characters. This is how fiction novels operate, I already supplied a link to you that explains it all very clearly and you still miss the point. And discovering the knowledge of the ancient Sith isnt going to tell him anything about the power levels of the ancient Sith, which is the most relevent point.
I can read the comic Your quote is on the Dark Horse website. You're the one missing the point here. The narrator, with knowledge of all Sw history says Palpatine>Any other Sith. Ever. Case closed.
And 'discovering all the knowledge' of the Ancients and having control of their spirits means nothing to knowing their power? Please.

Perhaps you don't get it. They're saying he used to be the most powerful of the Empire. Now he's dead and events are unfolding. That means it means nothing to the very second after he dies. the narrator is describing events that have already occurred and setting the stage. If the narrator said "The most powerful Sith who had ever lived" in a source that included a comprehensive history, you'd have a point

When it specifies the unfolding events, it does matter. Take it in context.

That Ragnos is dead? That it only applies to what has already transpired and not what will?

The narrator could say "Darth Bane is the most powerful Sith" in Path of Destruction. That wouldn't apply to anything afterwards.

Except he's doing so about that time and that is IT.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Lightsnake
'Superspeed?' She uses it in a heartbeat when Sarro takes a quick look behind him.

Yes. It was one-on-one and she was given that extra instant.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Moreover, there's a point where Sarro is not attacking or doing anything but showboating. He rears up, grins and twirls his saber before leaping leaping forward after Johun leaves. Zannah just readies herself.
That's what we call 'time to use it.' This'd take more time than quickly looking behind you. And quite frankly, I doubt Zannah's assertion that Sarro's training leaves him vulnerable to her other forms of attack. She knows precisely nothing of Sarro's training or ability beyond sabers

Right. Because Sarro is incapable of stop showing off and hacking her into pieces once he sees her going something else besides being ready for the duel?

Look, this is how a Zannah vs. Vader fight would go:

Zannah opens with making herself invisible and hiding her Force signature, rendering Vader's massive raw Force power useless. Now, let's assume that Vader can resist an attack that he's never even faced before. Zannah uses her fear ability. Vader takes a split second, or several seconds, attempting to combat it. During which time his Force shielding is reduced to crap - Zannah Force Crushes his life support box, the end.

Perfectly plausible.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Frankly? No. No, I won't let my irritation of them go so long as they remain the awful, 1-D characters they are with nothing more than talentless hacks who wouldn't know subtlety unless it hit them in the face writing about them substituting power ups and action scenes for 'character' and having a legion of people clamoring on about them like they're the best thing ever.

And frankly, I'll hold a special little grudge against Bane because he bordered on actually interesting in Jedi vs. Sith, as did the entire setting and scenario. With the exception of Kopecz, Karpyshyn managed to screw up the entire era, situation and characters to the point where they ceased to be even SLIGHTLY interesting with his "Screw continuity, I'm an ARTISTE!" attitude.

In the Force, Zannah's shown us little beyond using Sith sorcery on an exhausted, distracted opponent and a Chiss terrorist and a spell of concealment. As far as available power goes, Vader takes her without much trouble.

At least until the third Bane novel has her annihilating stars for disrupting her nap.

One dimensional? That would be Darth Sidious. He's completely boring, egotistical, and evil...all of which is extremely predictable. At least Bane was devastated when he learned that he unintentionally killed his own father - who deserved it, mind you. Gets cut off from the Dark Side from an entire month because he felt guilty over killing someone else, goes through a whole range of other emotions...His character is far more interesting in PoD than anything Sidious or Vader display. Now, in RoT - it seemed like he was trying too hard to be evil. But perhaps DK will correct that in his third novel.

DarkSerpent

@ LS
Palpatine once went to Korriban with Jeng Droga, he told him to stay on the ship or something, and went to to the Valley of the Dark Lords.
He almost instantly demanded knowledge of the darkside, and they(the spirits of the Dark Lords) cowed him and Jeng Droga, sensing his mater was in danger, saved his life from the specter of the Sith Lords.

Shortly after the Battle of Yavin, Palpatine, now Emperor of the Galactic Empire and the ruling Dark Lord of the Sith, visited the tombs of the ancient Sith Lords on Korriban that were still haunted by the ghosts of the long deceased Sith. He wanted to gain further knowledge of the dark side, but his demands only enraged the mummified Sith. Wounded and cowed, he was rescued by Jeng Droga and had to recover from the assault in a bacta tank on Imperial Center.

At no point were the Sith ghost under his control, heck, they damn near killed him. It was only because of(oddly enough it seems that his dark jedi assistants were extremely loyal) Droga that he survived at all. His arrogance nearly cost him his life.

Enyalus

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
@ LS
Palpatine once went to Korriban with Jeng Droga, he told him to stay on the ship or something, and went to to the Valley of the Dark Lords.
He almost instantly demanded knowledge of the darkside, and they(the spirits of the Dark Lords) cowed him and Jeng Droga, sensing his mater was in danger, saved his life from the specter of the Sith Lords.

Shortly after the Battle of Yavin, Palpatine, now Emperor of the Galactic Empire and the ruling Dark Lord of the Sith, visited the tombs of the ancient Sith Lords on Korriban that were still haunted by the ghosts of the long deceased Sith. He wanted to gain further knowledge of the dark side, but his demands only enraged the mummified Sith. Wounded and cowed, he was rescued by Jeng Droga and had to recover from the assault in a bacta tank on Imperial Center.

At no point were the Sith ghost under his control, heck, they damn near killed him. It was only because of(oddly enough it seems that his dark jedi assistants were extremely loyal) Droga that he survived at all. His arrogance nearly cost him his life.

This is a good post. thumb up

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Enyalus

Yes. It was one-on-one and she was given that extra instant.
She had an instant when he was twirling his saber around when Johun left

Like Sarro's ever seen Sith sorcery used before? honestly, she doesn't need long at all. Just an instant

This usually doesn't work if they're looking right at you...and can still sense you if they're looking

Honestly, Vader's Force defenses are going to be hit...how? Unless Zannah has EVER used it on a battle ready opponent-and Bane indicates it ain't gonna work if she tries it on him- then the point is moot

Vader is fully capable of surviving for periods with it damaged, agony aside. And that agony will only fuel him. Not like zannah will even know details of Vader's life there, either. Nor is there anything saying vader won't just lash out and kill her with far superior force power and mastery first

More plausible is Vader starting off and wrecking her from the get go

Even more Stu-ish. He goes through generic angst phase before it ceases to matter
Palpatine is a generic villain, sure. He's interesting BECAUSE he's actually evil, too and most of his life is a solid known

still Suish. Generic angst on display

Again: DK thinks he can write.

I doubt it.

Enyalus

I'd prefer a character who is virtually perfect and shows off just about every range of emotion, etc, as opposed to someone like Palpatine who is a perfect stereotype of the bad "bad guy." At least Bane is a charming villian. Palpatine, you just want to smack.

There's nothing wrong with Drew's writing. His character development is done well, PoD had a great plot, his battle scenes are exceptional, his knowledge of the SW universe is good (except the one slip about Sirak using Vaapad).

DarkSerpent

Originally posted by Enyalus
This is a good post. thumb up

I'm like Loki on Crack. Either I'm superbly ridiculous or my win factor is exponential. You have to pay attention to all my post.

The main reason I said that is that LS was getting a bit ridiculous, in no way can Ragnos' power be argued. Palpatine may have known a shitload more than most, but he

1.Can only used that which is of the darkside or neutral.

2.Doesn't use or show the usefulness of this knowledge base during battle, which means

a. Most of it isn't that useful anyways.

b. He can't use it or apply it to battle.

c. He's to arrogant to try, and so wouldn't do it anyways.

d. Using some of these (I.e The Fallanasi techniques) would detrimental in battle.

or e. He's not as ZOMGTEHUBURRPWNZAR as he's made out to be.

3. He, like Dooku who preferred sabers when he could force rape enemies, is too arrogant and sure of himself to use the best of these.

@ Enyalus
Thank you.

Enyalus

Marka Ragnos has more Force knowledge than Darth Sidious. This is a canon fact.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Enyalus
I'd prefer a character who is virtually perfect and shows off just about every range of emotion, etc, as opposed to someone like Palpatine who is a perfect stereotype of the bad "bad guy." At least Bane is a charming villian. Palpatine, you just want to smack.

There's nothing wrong with Drew's writing. His character development is done well, PoD had a great plot, his battle scenes are exceptional, his knowledge of the SW universe is good (except the one slip about Sirak using Vaapad).
Ok, which of the two has personally butchered children with zero remorse? 'Charming' villains tend to be subtle.

And there's LOTS wrong with Drew's writing. And 'his knowledge of the SW universe is good?' Are you aware of how much continuity he wrecked and then essentially said 'Screw it's MY story!'
And most of the story isn't HIS. It was established well beforehand. His battle scenes...ok, he writes good action.

Drew's prose is laughably bad. He constantly contradicts stuff well established-want a LIST? Drew didn't even READ Jedi vs. Sith except for a brief summary.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Enyalus
Marka Ragnos has more Force knowledge than Darth Sidious. This is a canon fact.

....eh? Based on?

DarkSerpent

Originally posted by Enyalus
Marka Ragnos has more Force knowledge than Darth Sidious. This is a canon fact. What?

Enyalus

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
What?

The Dark Side Sourcebook...which, so a birdy tells me, is N-canon when they mention the knowledge stuff. So if that's true, meh.

Great Vengeance

Sigh, the narrator does *not* have knowledge of all Sw history, he is limited to the knowledge of the characters. Im tired of repeating myself. HERE
Provide some evidence that your sources operate under different rules, otherwise this is the standard form that fiction novels operate under as notated by the article.

He didnt control their spirits. And to sense an individuals power level he would have to see them in the flesh. Ghosts dont cut it. Clearly that is impossible by Palpatines era.

Okay here is the exact quote as requested. "Marka Ragnos ruled the galaxy with an iron fist. He was the Dark Lord of the Sith -- the most powerful of the most powerful. But now he is dead. And two innocent hyperspace explorers, Gav and Jori Daragon, may follow suit if they get caught between the factions fighting to fill the Dark Lord void."

Now what am I not getting? Ragnos is still stated as the most powerful of the most powerful. That he is dead is irrelevent, the quote can be in the past tense and still apply to the future because according to your reasoning the narrator is omniscient to the whole mythos, and he is outside the timeline. Your argument is rather confused.

See above.

See above.

Nope, actually it would if the narrator(according to you) has omniscient knowledge of the entire mythos as opposed to just the characters. Stop treating the narrator like he is a part of the timeline.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Sigh, the narrator does *not* have knowledge of all Sw history, he is limited to the knowledge of the characters. Im tired of repeating myself. HERE
Provide some evidence that your sources operate under different rules, otherwise this is the standard form that fiction novels operate under as notated by the article.

Oh, stop your whining and actually READ:
The 'Third person' is a VERY GENERAL concept' that just doesn't use 'I' or 'you' in the story perspective and can only apply when it's describing that scene. the narrator is CLEARLY saying from NO CHARACTER'S perspective, Palpatine is the most powerful ever. Guess what? In numerous other sources that ALSO cover dear Marky-boy, he's named most powerful. Only one powerful enough to tame the Dark Side and all?

Stop corrupting literary devices, since you're applying it purely incorrect. The third person omniscient narrator is saying as a fact Palp is the most powerful ever. Quote to contradict him since? Let's hear this retcon then.

He 'bound them to his will.' That's not control?
And considering in Sithisis, he's clearly SUMMINING them and sees them VISUALLY and clearly KNOWS them PERSONALLY when he goes to visit them in Empire's End. Who's wrong? You.
and have to 'see them in the flesh?' Yeah, totally impossible to gauge their powers otherwise....not like everyone in the present of SW always thinks how strong some past people were.

I'm sorry, but are you confused? This is a PRESENT TENSE QUOTE! It has NO BEARING on the future! Of course he's that powerful THEN because the future HASN'T HAPPENED YET! He WAS the most powerful! WAS! Palpatine IS the Most powerful! SEE THE DISPARITY?
The narrator is only discussion the present in Golden Age! If he said Marka is the most powerful who was and ever will be, you'd have a point. You don't

Kindly stop posting

Oh, ye Gods. The two narrators are totally different. In SW, narration has always taken as canon to that point. Marka means nothing to future comments on power. It's not hard to see why

Schwarzenegger

Great Vengeance

Shut the hell up, palpatine IS the number one sith lord, live with it or simply die with it.

The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed.
-- Death Star, page 76.

"...Yoda could defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
-- The New Essential Chronology, page 84

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72.

Dark Empire sourcebook:

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Empire's End(audio book i believe, i got this from nikkolas but hes banned now), one of the Ancient Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine.

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: Palpatine at his peak.

Essential Chronology: the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."

had succeeded where all others failed in taming the Dark Side. He would journey across the universe, spreading the shadow of his rule, blotting out the stars themselves, and taking his Dark Rule to other helpless galaxies.

Now, with so many sources and so much more to go, canon >>>>>>>> your ass.

Now shut up you kotor hardcore fanwanker.

Jbill311

That was an impressive list, and while I do not disagree, just for my own curiosity, where did you get the final quote?

Schwarzenegger

From gideon who took it out from one of the sources. Remember, he is far more credible than almost anybody on KMC.

Great Vengeance

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Moreover, quantify Revan's feats. Impressive? Yes. Any direct and actual canon on them? And when was Ragnos considered even REMOTELY 'Godlike?' He kept guard by having a loyal cadre and playing factions against one another

He used force bonds on a grand scale to convert followers according to Kreia. Hes mastered precognition to the point where he could see entire battles before they happened, according to Handmaiden.

Ajunta Pall said Revans power was 'blinding' to him. Jolee could see the force swirling around Revan.

He slaughters the sith academy by himself, along with the defenses of the SF and an empowered Malak.

"Revan was power. It was like staring into the heart of the Force. Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul." -Kreia

Revan ripped the rakatans language from their skulls, and then forces them to understand basic. A subtle and unprecedented use of the force.

Revans holocron alone was enough to make Bane powerful, and since Bane learned techniques like thought bomb from Revans holocron, it follows that Revan would be able to use them also.

So if you take all these points together you can see Revans one bad dude. On to Ragnos.

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2429/ragnosrule5sd.jpg

Its obvious here that Nadd and Ludo obeyed Ragnos unquestionably. Notice they are bowing down to him, and the Sith respect power nothing else.

"...In death, his grandeur even what he had achieved over a century of iron rule." -The Narrator

When Ragnos interrupts the fight between Ulic and Exar Kun, he states "It matters not who I am, my power is all that concerns you." And then he precedes to iniate them into true sith hood.

Obviously Ragnos is a great and illustrious figure in his own time. If we cant establish that, your just being a blind Sids fanboy.

Jbill311

I'm not trying to second guess you OR Gideon, but that last quote almost sounded like it was from Test of Wills. No matter how skilled the fanfiction author may be, we all know that it is not considered cannon.

DarkSerpent

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
He used force bonds on a grand scale to convert followers according to Kreia. Hes mastered precognition to the point where he could see entire battles before they happened, according to Handmaiden.

Ajunta Pall said Revans power was 'blinding' to him. Jolee could see the force swirling around Revan.

He slaughters the sith academy by himself, along with the defenses of the SF and an empowered Malak.

"Revan was power. It was like staring into the heart of the Force. Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul." -Kreia

Revan ripped the rakatans language from their skulls, and then forces them to understand basic. A subtle and unprecedented use of the force.

Revans holocron alone was enough to make Bane powerful, and since Bane learned techniques like thought bomb from Revans holocron, it follows that Revan would be able to use them also.

So if you take all these points together you can see Revans one bad dude. On to Ragnos.

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2429/ragnosrule5sd.jpg

Its obvious here that Nadd and Ludo obeyed Ragnos unquestionably. Notice they are bowing down to him, and the Sith respect power nothing else.

"...In death, his grandeur even what he had achieved over a century of iron rule." -The Narrator

When Ragnos interrupts the fight between Ulic and Exar Kun, he states "It matters not who I am, my power is all that concerns you." And then he precedes to iniate them into true sith hood.

Obviously Ragnos is a great and illustrious figure in his own time. If we cant establish that, your just being a blind Sids fanboy. Co-Signed.

Faunus

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
From gideon who took it out from one of the sources. Remember, he is far more credible than almost anybody on KMC. Jesus. You don't quote Gideon as canon, especially when the "quote" doesn't even contribute anything to the argument. I know you've had your head up his ass for quite some time now, and of course I recognize his superior familiarity with the material, but enough is enough.

DarkSerpent

Notice that LS didn't argue my point about Palpatine NOT being all-powerful?

Gideon is a good debater, not great, but good.

I can, however, understand that since most of the elite(with the exception of Vengeance, Borbarad) have left or been banned, that he might seem awesome, when in fact he is not.

Schwarzenegger

I didn't say i quote gideon as canon, i said i GOT IT from gideon who in turn got it from one of the sources, theres a BIG difference.

Wow so just because i got a quote from him and actually stated its from him and not me so it essentially means i got my head up his ass?

what do you have against me faunus? You always seem so hostile whenever i place my fingers on the keyboard.

@Great vengeance.

Out of universe sources and canon refute your bullshit claims that "revan is zeh number one" sith.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
He used force bonds on a grand scale to convert followers according to Kreia. Hes mastered precognition to the point where he could see entire battles before they happened, according to Handmaiden.
He couldn't see Malak open fire on him and he had defeats. He's a brilliant tactician, yes. This doesn't translate to power

We know he's powerful. And? At his best, he's still canonically weaker than Yoda

He slaughtered the Ssith Academy? Canon proof?

this means...what, exactly? Quotes like this are great, but I can match them with plenty Palp quotes

'Unprecedented?' This isn't hard for Force users

They're ancient rituals, not 'techniques.' Revan would know how to use them, sure, but it's not something you pull off in combat

Nobody ever denied Revan's powerful.
He is, however, canonically weaker than Yoda according to the ROTS novelization-Revan as a Jedi>Revan as a Sith Lord and Yoda is the canonically most powerful Jedi

And? So he was Dark Lord there. Ludo is a comparative weakling to plenty of people, too. Their straight combat feats aren't so hot. And they're shocked he's even appeared

The pomp and circumstance was something. This has no bearing on power

And? Again, how does this translate to 'more powerful than Palpatine?

Of course he's powerful. he's very powerful.

He's just weaker than Palpatine.

DarkSerpent

Shut up, Roid-******.

Gideon

Are you defying me, Faunus? My status as a god amongst these people cannot be disputed!

In regards to Palpatine's visit to Korriban as seen in the Emperor's Pawns, I can only respond by quoting my Master, Publius:

No one is suggesting that the Emperor could annihilate a large mass of Ancient Sith in combat.

Regarding Darth Revan, I especially enjoy how people here will take quotes from fallible third parties with an established bias for Revan and dismiss more credible statements regarding Palpatine. The greatest highlight is how Great Vengeance seems inclined to argue the validity of the omniscient narrator. GV, when you can tell me where an Ancient Sith -- without assistance -- generates power surpassing or equaling that of one of Palpatine's Force Storms or where they transform a nascent planet into "one of the strongest dark side sites in the entire galaxy" due to their own dark energies during a time when they are secluded on Coruscant and slowly break the wills and enslave the twenty billion inhabitants of said planet... we'll talk. Otherwise, much as you try to disagree, what we bring to the table will always be greater.

Schwarzenegger

I just can't believe it, simply because i respect you gideon, people accuse me of putting my head up your ass. Its amusing really.

Great Vengeance

This quote was the primary discussion between me and LS. Due to the mechanics of Omniscient narrator limited its invalid because the novel in question doesnt include Revan or any other ancient Sith.

The NEC is written from an in-universe perspective. Therefore the quote came from a third party fallible source.

Yes Sids is an evil bastard, master of evil doesnt equal power.

This one is invalid for the same reason Death Star is.

Ditto.

If you provide proof of this quote, Ill accept it. I wasnt aware of this one.

Who is the 'official' that said this?

I explained why the NEC is invalid earlier in the post.

Taming the dark side could mean alot of things. Sidious is very attune to the dark side, thats obvious but still that doesnt mean Sidious > Ragnos.

DarkSerpent

...GV, let it go. You might as well convince Rampnat Ox that Sidious could beat Dooku in a duel.

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
This quote was the primary discussion between me and LS. Due to the mechanics of Omniscient narrator limited its invalid because the novel in question doesnt include Revan or any other ancient Sith.
Sorry pal, its canon. The novel came out after kotor and it has been approved by lfl and received canon status.

The very fact you argue against it further shows how stupid you really are.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance

The NEC is written from an in-universe perspective. Therefore the quote came from a third party fallible source.
LOL and kreia's labeling revan the heart of the force isn't?

I love your double standards.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance

This one is invalid for the same reason Death Star is. No it isn't, it isn't retconned, nor has any official made a statement claiming its not canon.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance

Ditto. And they were referring to palpatine.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance

If you provide proof of this quote, Ill accept it. I wasnt aware of this one. I'm not going to go through hundreds of magazine issues just to find it for you.

The fact is, you claimed revan and ragnos are the most powerful, you prove it.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance

I explained why the NEC is invalid earlier in the post. Right, i just love your double standards.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance

Taming the dark side could mean alot of things. Sidious is very attune to the dark side, thats obvious but still that doesnt mean Sidious > Ragnos. And what has revan or ragnos done to show that they > sidious?

Ragnos did absolutely NOTHING, while palpatine could destroy entire starfleets with his force storm.

Jbill311

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Ajunta Pall said Revans power was 'blinding' to him. Jolee could see the force swirling around Revan.
What's to say that 'blinding' doesn't just mean very lightside? Jolee says himself that he was referring to an important destiny, which presumably has nothing to do with power levels.

We have a fully trained Jedi knight destroying legions of Sith apprentices. Besides Uthar and Yuthara (sp?) there was no one of note in the massacre. Impressive? Yes. Godly? No.

As for the Star Forge, blasting through droids and cannon fodder apprentices doesn't knock my socks off, though it certainly shows skill. Malak was impressive, granted.

She goes on to flatter and coerce the Exile into trying to 'kill the force'. Most of what Kreia says is a lie, and her 'only successful student' is hardly an objective topic for her. I feel safe calling this hyperbole, even though I'm sure Revan was powerful.

Luke was able to communicate with some sort of crystal. Using the Force to communicate is not unheard of. It does give us some indication of Revan's power in the force. It just isn't godly, and does not really apply to combat anyway.

It does show that Darth Revan was no one to be taken lightly, but some of the techniques may have been conjecture on Revan's part, since we never see him using them. His knowledge of the force is impressive for his time and training but is by no means definitive. He is not 'OMG teh Force GOD!!!?!!1two!!1' He has some impressive showings, but is clouded in hyperbole, and is first and foremost an unknown. (outside of comics. I don't read them.)

I have no problem with Revan being considered powerful, even Mega-powerful. I just don't think we know enough for sure to call him 'UBERZ' yet.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance

"...In death, his grandeur even what he had achieved over a century of iron rule." -The Narrator

It's trivial, I know, but I don't know anything else about Ragnos. This is a sentence fragment. It almost appears to be incorrectly quoted, so I didn't want to say anything, but I have a rep. to uphold.

Gideon

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I just can't believe it, simply because i respect you gideon, people accuse me of putting my head up your ass. Its amusing really.

My advice would be to not let it get to you. But for the record, we have had this discussion before: you didn't get all of those quotes from me. I only quote material that I have personally seen and confirmed to exist. Some of those I'm not sure exist, hence why I don't use them.

Schwarzenegger

Oh and GV, respond to lightsnakes post.

@Gideon

I understand, the previous quotes that i took from you ARE valid, its only the last one that i don't have the source to confirm it.

Gideon

I'm particularly interested in his response to my post. I'm curious about the inventive excuses he will make regarding Palpatine's single-handed transformation of Byss and the potency of the Force Storm. The calvary that I expect will arrive for him will make this argument all the more interesting.

Try not to lose your cool, either.

Schwarzenegger

Yea sure, i'm cool.

But reading his responses are quite amusing anyways.

I'm off the playing spore.

Great Vengeance

Did you even read our argument? Wtf are you talking about rofl. I never said the novel wasnt canon, but due to Omniscient narrator limited the narrator cant make a broad statement about the mythos. Sigh, Ill prolly have to repeat this to you again in much simpler terms and still its doubtful that you'll get it.

The quote about Kreia wasnt meant to prove Revan was stronger than Sidious. It shows that Kreia thought he was very powerful, thats all. When you make bold claims, you need rock solid proof. You have nothing which can prove Sidious > Ragnos.

Stop talking about irrelevent bs.

Than you have no point. This quote is the only one which would meet proper standards of proof.

Dont put words in my mouth, where did I say that? I showed evidence why both Revan and Ragnos are very powerful. Are they greater than Sids? I believe so, but atleast I have the modesty to admit that I cant prove it conclusively.

Implied power is just as good of evidence as feats. Its unlikely he did nothing if he was able to establish a century of iron rule (canon) among a people who only respect power.

And yes Palpatines force storm is a nice trick but its useless in close quarters, unless Sids would be willing to kill himself.

Also, get some help with your anger issues bud. Your taking this shit too seriously.

Advent

Several of your sources are bullshit and invalid.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
"...Yoda could defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
-- The New Essential Chronology, page 84

Subjective, illogical.

Voren Na'al isn't able to compare Sidious' power to any of the Sith Lords' that preceded him, ergo his opinion cannot be used as a source. I would think the same applies to the Essential Chronology given the NEC is an update.

Subjective, illogical.

Who was the spirit? How could he actively compare Sidious' power to others? If what DarkSerpent said was true (and it is), then it seems like some of the Ancient Sith were going to lay the smackdown on him. I don't see all of them holding the same opinion regardless.

Blatant lie, idiotic.

Ignoring the stupid notion that's presented in that, this is an outright falsehood. Don't put words in people's mouths and expect it to hold any weight here, Schwarzenegger. You can't find the proof for this one because there simply is none. Lying won't help Sidious.

Proof that this is official, not fan fiction?

I think I bashed GV back in the day, but he's quite clearly got a point now. So instead of Gideon's ass, perhaps you need to pull your head out of your own.

Gideon

Originally posted by Advent
I think I bashed GV back in the day, but he's quite clearly got a point now. So instead of Gideon's ass, perhaps you need to pull your head out of your own.

For the record, I just checked, and no one's head is in my ass. As far as Great Vengeance's point is concerned, Advent, please enlighten those of us (such as myself) who are either too stupid to comprehend or too blind to see.

Enyalus

GV, much as I would love to knock the Sidious fanboys off their high horses, I have a serious question.

You said "Due to the mechanics of Omniscient narrator limited its invalid because the novel in question doesnt include Revan or any other ancient Sith." and invalidated several quotes this way. What is the difference between those quotes and the Tales of the Jedi 'Most powerful of the powerful' quote?

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Advent
Several of your sources are bullshit and invalid.

Subjective, illogical.

Voren Na'al isn't able to compare Sidious' power to any of the Sith Lords' that preceded him, ergo his opinion cannot be used as a source. I would think the same applies to the Essential Chronology given the NEC is an update.

Subjective, illogical.

Who was the spirit? How could he actively compare Sidious' power to others? If what DarkSerpent said was true (and it is), then it seems like some of the Ancient Sith were going to lay the smackdown on him. I don't see all of them holding the same opinion regardless.

Blatant lie, idiotic.

Ignoring the stupid notion that's presented in that, this is an outright falsehood. Don't put words in people's mouths and expect it to hold any weight here, Schwarzenegger. You can't find the proof for this one because there simply is none. Lying won't help Sidious.

Proof that this is official, not fan fiction?

I think I bashed GV back in the day, but he's quite clearly got a point now. So instead of Gideon's ass, perhaps you need to pull your head out of your own. I got most of it from nikkolas. But i'll drop these few claims, i couldn't check with him simply because he got banned. I guess i learned that next time i want to use something i got from other people, ill confirm first, then use it.

@GV, ill get back to you later

Great Vengeance

Malaks betrayal was the only known tactical mistake that he made. And handmaidens word > you regarding his abilities. Yes tactical mastery doesnt translate to power, but his mastery of precog does.

No hes not. The ROTS novel operates under omniscient narrator limited also, and the Yoda quote doesnt apply to his pre kotor dark side incarnation.

He has to fight through the academy regardless of LS or DS choices.

It means Kreia thought he was very powerful. Im not pretending that this is absolute proof of Revans dominance, these points are meant to be taken together.

Show me an example of somone else doing it then.

Ok, but the destructive power involved with a thought bomb is impressive regardless.

Quote doesnt apply to DS pre kotor Revan. No canon source says LS Revan > DS Revan the quote comes from Malak, a fallible third party source.

He wasnt dark lord anymore, he was a deceased spirit. You asked why I thought Ragnos was considered godlike in his own era, and I gave you the proof. And to say that Ludo or Sadow are weak is entirely your opinion.

In a society such as the ancient Sith, it does have bearing on power because to be so highly respected means that he must of had great power.

I never said that I possessed conclusive evidence Ragnos was more powerful than Palpatine. But your using double standards as you have no proof Sidious > Ragnos either. Im not going to keep debating omniscient narrator limited with you, its simply the way things work.

Gideon

Yes, those pesky Sidious fanboys. I mean, it's not like calling the guy who corrupted a planet and enslaved its billions of inhabitants from across the galaxy, manhandled three of the Jedi's greatest swordsmen in seconds, battled the creator of the deadliest lightsaber form to a standstill despite the fact that he hadn't touched a lightsaber in over a decade, as well as stalemated the most powerful Jedi ever, survived an explosion capable of blowing up a tower from an individual capable of ungodly feats, creates Force Storms capable of disintegrating state-of-the-art warships with shields resisting gigatons of energy, and was the imbalance in the Force -- and would rule the galaxy twice -- the greatest and most powerful Sith Lord ever has any merit to it.

DarkSerpent

Bane used the Thought Bomb and the Strom ritual, but he said that many of the techniques were too terrifying to use period.

So Revan might have any reservations using these while Bane obviulsy would.
Also, one must wonder, if the Thought Bomb and the Storm apparrently were not the most terrifying, then what in Sith royal ****-ery was so much so that Bane was scared to used them when he wasn't scared of mentioned techniques!?

Enyalus

Originally posted by Gideon
Yes, those pesky Sidious fanboys. I mean, it's not like calling the guy who corrupted a planet and enslaved its billions of inhabitants from across the galaxy, manhandled three of the Jedi's greatest swordsmen in seconds, battled the creator of the deadliest lightsaber form to a standstill despite the fact that he hadn't touched a lightsaber in over a decade, as well as stalemated the most powerful Jedi ever, survived an explosion capable of blowing up a tower from an individual capable of ungodly feats, creates Force Storms capable of disintegrating state-of-the-art warships with shields resisting gigatons of energy, and was the imbalance in the Force -- and would rule the galaxy twice -- the greatest and most powerful Sith Lord ever has any merit to it.

Yes, but unfortunately for those Sidious fanboys, he only actually manages to rule it once. And 90% of it was due to a keen political mind, rather than strength in the Force.

But, I do agree that calling him the most powerful Sith Lord ever has merit. Saying that he 'waves his hand' and destroys four PT era Council members, does not. Nor do several other Sidious fanboy statements and exaggerations which certain people have made around here that are equally ridiculous to the statements such as "Exar Kun can destroy the entire PT Council by himself" and Ancient Sith induced fanwanking.

Gideon

Someone actually hasn't read Dark Empire. Despite having, technically, a lesser military, he manages to subdue the New Republic and drive them back to guerilla warfare, conquering the majority of the galaxy, "winning his war of conquest." Second time... and he does it in one year.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Gideon
Someone actually hasn't read Dark Empire. Despite having, technically, a lesser military, he manages to subdue the New Republic and drive them back to guerilla warfare, conquering the majority of the galaxy, "winning his war of conquest." Second time... and he does it in one year.

Last I checked, they were able to destroy a vast amount of Palpatine's world breakers thanks to Luke Skywalker's double-crossings and codes programmed into R2-D2. The New Republic still existed. And was still large.

DarkSerpent

Originally posted by Advent
Several of your sources are bullshit and invalid.

Subjective, illogical.

Voren Na'al isn't able to compare Sidious' power to any of the Sith Lords' that preceded him, ergo his opinion cannot be used as a source. I would think the same applies to the Essential Chronology given the NEC is an update.

Subjective, illogical.

Who was the spirit? How could he actively compare Sidious' power to others? If what DarkSerpent said was true (and it is), then it seems like some of the Ancient Sith were going to lay the smackdown on him. I don't see all of them holding the same opinion regardless.

Blatant lie, idiotic.

Ignoring the stupid notion that's presented in that, this is an outright falsehood. Don't put words in people's mouths and expect it to hold any weight here, Schwarzenegger. You can't find the proof for this one because there simply is none. Lying won't help Sidious.

Proof that this is official, not fan fiction?

I think I bashed GV back in the day, but he's quite clearly got a point now. So instead of Gideon's ass, perhaps you need to pull your head out of your own. Oh shitness, one the old ones...

I'm wouldn't argue with this titan if I were you.

Gideon

Enyalus, seriously, for five minutes, stop acting like an obstinate moron. Did I say that Palpatine went without losses? No. Are you apparently ignorant of the extremely obvious fact (stated numerous times) that Palpatine was aware of Skywalker's treachery and was manipulating him the whole time? That they managed to destroy a World Devastator or two is hardly tantamount to winning a galactic war. I'm actually embarrassed that you'd bring that up to try to refute the idea that Palpatine drove the New Republic into hiding.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Gideon
Enyalus, seriously, for five minutes, stop acting like an obstinate moron. Did I say that Palpatine went without losses? No. Are you apparently ignorant of the extremely obvious fact (stated numerous times) that Palpatine was aware of Skywalker's treachery and was manipulating him the whole time? That they managed to destroy a World Devastator or two is hardly tantamount to winning a galactic war. I'm actually embarrassed that you'd bring that up to try to refute the idea that Palpatine didn't drive the New Republic into hiding.

You initially implied, without directly saying (nicely covering your ass again wink

) that Palpatine conquered the galaxy twice. You then went on to add that he "subdued" the New Republic...not true. And that he reconquered the majority of the galaxy. Which is also not true. He had most of the Core, and that's pretty much the extent of it. It was even stated that he wanted to launch his attack in waves...at the end of Dark Empire, he hadn't done so yet.

The rest of that post is a really poorly constructed strawman. Of course I'm aware that Palpatine was aware of Skywalker's treachery. I never suggested otherwise. I can cover my ass, too.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Malaks betrayal was the only known tactical mistake that he made. And handmaidens word > you regarding his abilities. Yes tactical mastery doesnt translate to power, but his mastery of precog does.
No, it doesn't. He lost battles before that, too. It's one talent...or is Bastila Shan a Force God?

Oh, do shut up. narrator facts are facts. Period. End story. Your nonsense is based on you not understanding how a third party narrator works. Sorry, but facts stated by the narrator are canon facts APPLYING TO STAR WARS. End story! Chee's said that narration is canon.
You? Aren't

Prove he does any of the fighting

And all they are are random quotes without any direct backing. And your attempts to poison the well on other sources is just pathetic

How do you think Jedi understand every language spoken? They let the Force translate for them.

Yeah, and it needs a LOT OF PEOPLE and isn't a singular effort

Yeah, Malak's untrustworthy here. Are you mad? He was Revan's closest friend and apprentice, if anyone knows, he does.
Get over it

Yeah, Ludo who can't even block a thrown brick is powerful-FEAR HIM.
And the Sith don't even know WHAT he is then. Naga is shocked to see Ragnos again and Ludo is begging him to forgive them

We've seen the 'highly respected' Dark Lords like Simus and those jokes Horak and Dol. If the Sith council is any indication they're nothing special, and Ragnos can't even take a Padawan with his hugely empowered Sith sword.
And as we know, Ragnos ruled in no small part thanks to manipulation

Oh, do shut up. Narrators are fact in SW. Except, you're too ignorant to accept the obvious fact your quote applies to that specific time when the Palpatine quotes constantly apply to 'of all time' and you, being insanely biased, refuse to believe that omniscient narrator quotes, even in SOURCEBOOKS-which even MENTION RAGNOS are valid.

Lemme get this through your insanely thick skull:
1. Narrator quotes are made by the omniscient narrator, NOT LIMITED in any way since it's not from a character's POV which is the one limitation to usual third party limitation and takes a God's eye view of the mythos. It declares Palpatine the most powerful.

End of story, kindly shut up now.

Gideon

I'm not interested in continuing an argument when you're unwilling to look at the facts. Palpatine drove the New Republic leadership into hiding, he forced numerous worlds to rejoin the Empire, he was "winning his war of conquest" according to tNEC. He was winning, it's time you accept it. wink

Lightsnake

Yeah, in DE 2...they're the 'rebel alliance' again

Gideon

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, in DE 2...they're the 'rebel alliance' again

What Enyalus means to say is that the New Republic adopted this name because they thought it was catchier. Since they clearly still dominated the galaxy, they were entitled to name changes. Adds to the drama, you see.

Faunus

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I didn't say i quote gideon as canon, i said i GOT IT from gideon who in turn got it from one of the sources, theres a BIG difference.

Wow so just because i got a quote from him and actually stated its from him and not me so it essentially means i got my head up his ass?

what do you have against me faunus? You always seem so hostile whenever i place my fingers on the keyboard.
I'm not hostile when you're not being an idiot, as I thought I'd made clear in the past. Throwing in "zeh great gideon," "gideon sez," and "from gideon:" in every other post is obnoxious and pathetic. We get it, you respect him, you think he's awesome and knowledgeable, etc. He is. Now get over him.

We've had great discussions, and I have nothing against you personally. But quite frankly, this is getting on my nerves. Coupled with the vehement and unbelievably stupid anti-Bane and anti-Sidious bitching going on, plus Dark Serpent posting in as massive font as possible just to be a dick, I get annoyed pretty quickly here.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Gideon
What Enyalus means to say is that the New Republic adopted this name because they thought it was catchier. Since they clearly still dominated the galaxy, they were entitled to name changes. Adds to the drama, you see.

big grin

Perfect. Exactly what I had meant. I'm so glad you're able to understand me.

Faunus

Originally posted by Lightsnake
How do you think Jedi understand every language spoken? They let the Force translate for them. 1) Since when do Jedi understand every language spoken?

2) How is understanding a language remotely similar to forcibly implanting it in its entirety into someone's mind?

Gideon

I do understand you and I enjoy your backhanded concessions. Like DarkSerpent, it just warms my heart when you criticise me or accuse of me of sophistry (suggesting that you're somehow in a position to judge me) and then concede the point in every argument we ever engage in.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Faunus
1) Since when do Jedi understand every language spoken?

2) How is understanding a language remotely similar to forcibly implanting it in its entirety into someone's mind?

Bit of miscommunication. Jedi tend to use the Force to translate for them with other languages.

We've seen it in Shatterpoint, Tales of the Jedi off the top of my head and others.

Granted it's different than forcibly implanting in one's head

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Faunus
I'm not hostile when you're not being an idiot, as I thought I'd made clear in the past. Throwing in "zeh great gideon," "gideon sez," and "from gideon:" in every other post is obnoxious and pathetic. We get it, you respect him, you think he's awesome and knowledgeable, etc. He is. Now get over him.

We've had great discussions, and I have nothing against you personally. But quite frankly, this is getting on my nerves. Coupled with the vehement and unbelievably stupid anti-Bane and anti-Sidious bitching going on, plus Dark Serpent posting in as massive font as possible just to be a dick, I get annoyed pretty quickly here. Alright, thats fine.

But honestly i don't remember you telling me saying "zeh great gideon" is obnoxious, i think it was blax who said that.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Gideon
I do understand you and I enjoy your backhanded concessions. Like DarkSerpent, it just warms my heart when you criticise me or accuse of me of sophistry (suggesting that you're somehow in a position to judge me) and then concede the point in every argument we ever engage in.

If you'd like me to be more difficult, I'm sure that can be arranged as well.

He doesn't rule the galaxy twice. For you to suggest that he does is for you to mislead the people who take your opinions as gospel (Ivalice comes to mind).

Gideon

"If you'd like for me to be more difficult..." lol. And they accuse me of egotism? You state that as though I'm threatened by it. You accuse me of sophistry and being a fanboy on a regular basis, yet you concede every argument we've ever had. LOL, and you expect me to believe that it's you "just going easy"?

That's why you're on ignore, my friend. If you're going to concede every argument, you're not really in a position to criticise me, now are you?

Faunus

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Bit of miscommunication. Jedi tend to use the Force to translate for them with other languages.

We've seen it in Shatterpoint, Tales of the Jedi off the top of my head and others.

Granted it's different than forcibly implanting in one's head Do you have a quote? I'm not recalling anything, especially from Shatterpoint. We have Kar Vastor speaking through the Force, although that's a personal thing.

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Enyalus
If you'd like me to be more difficult, I'm sure that can be arranged as well.

He doesn't rule the galaxy twice. For you to suggest that he does is for you to mislead the people who take your opinions as gospel (Ivalice comes to mind). Ivalice? Whos ivalice? Its "Big S" now, the way you address me wink

Advent

Originally posted by Gideon
For the record, I just checked, and no one's head is in my ass.

That doesn't necessarily indicate someone wasn't hiding up there before. And I wonder how you even figured that out in the first place...

So those are the only two options if you don't understand? *sighs*, his argument is simple: if the narration is limited to the perspective of the character(s) in the sources, then the quotes could be declared invalid. I'm not saying he's right on all accounts or that Sidious isn't the most powerful, only that he has a point. You would have to review the sources itself to determine whether they are actually omniscient or third-person omniscient.

I'm sure some might be from an all-knowing perspective; although, in the case that some aren't, then it raises a question as to how recent the ones that are really are.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Faunus
Do you have a quote? I'm not recalling anything, especially from Shatterpoint. We have Kar Vastor speaking through the Force, although that's a personal thing.

I'll give a look later. Perhaps I'm off on Shatterpoint, though, but I could have sworn Vastor speaks in snarls and growls and it 'translates' via the Force as all of the Koruunai are Force sensitives anyways. Thon, however, I know speaks in a series of growls and snarls and the Force 'translates'...I'm pretty sure it's that way for Odan-Urr too.

And Advent is right on one end: We should examine narration, but as a matter of perspective...if it's the omniscient narrator or from a character's POV

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Advent
That doesn't necessarily indicate someone wasn't hiding up there before. And I wonder how you even figured that out in the first place...

So those are the only two options if you don't understand? *sighs*, his argument is simple: if the narration is limited to the perspective of the character(s) in the sources, then the quotes could be declared invalid. I'm not saying he's right on all accounts or that Sidious isn't the most powerful, only that he has a point. You would have to review the sources itself to determine whether they are actually omniscient or third-person omniscient.

I'm sure some might be from an all-knowing perspective; although, in the case that some aren't, then it raises a question as to how recent the ones that are really are.

While I haven't read Death Start myself, I'm pretty sure it's the purely omniscient narrator from what I've been told.

And the ROTS novel...Stover is ALWAYS using the purely omnipotent narrator no matter what he writes

Enyalus

Originally posted by Gideon
"If you'd like for me to be more difficult..." lol. And they accuse me of egotism? You state that as though I'm threatened by it.

Right. Because I think low enough of you to think you'd be somehow scared off by such a thing.

Non sequitur, anyone? Because one is relevant to the other why? And for the record, you must indeed be quite egotistical to think I've conceded every argument we've had.

Because I'd think that it matters what you'd think, why?

Because it's such a punishment to be on Gideon's ignore list, as though it hurts my pride or makes me less intelligent or less respectable to other KMC members. Truly, I could care less and you should've gotten that picture by now if you were able to think dynamically and creatively, instead of spitting sources verbatim like a parrot.

As for the criticism, I've disagreed with your position on a great many things. Your stance that DE Sidious could destroy four PT era Council members is ridiculous. And your 'sophistry' is a fact, not really a criticism. You seem to like flaunting it, so me actually calling you on it shouldn't come as a surprise. You simply don't need it - it was constructive criticism if anything.

That's about the extent of that.

Faunus

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'll give a look later. Perhaps I'm off on Shatterpoint, though, but I could have sworn Vastor speaks in snarls and growls and it 'translates' via the Force as all of the Koruunai are Force sensitives anyways. Thon, however, I know speaks in a series of growls and snarls and the Force 'translates'...I'm pretty sure it's that way for Odan-Urr too.Completely different on Vastor's part. He is essentially a manifestation of the raw power of the Force that is inherent in the jungle, and as such he is simply incapable of human speech. When he is "talking" to an individual, only the subject of his attention understands what he's "saying." Everyone else hears snarls and barks. It's a form of telepathy more than anything.

The Death Star line is third-person - immediately after stating Palpatine to be the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived, it says "... As Vader would be, someday." That particular segment is from his perspective.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He couldn't see Malak open fire on him and he had defeats.
He was distracted by the Jedi Strike Team and Malak was not even present in his ship.

So what you would expect him to focus upon?

A) Malak, who was stationed on a different ship.
B) The Jedi Strike Team, which was standing near him.

Revan' exceptional precognitive capabilities were indeed put to test when he faced the greatest known Echani warrior - Yusanis in single combat and defeated him.

Also, keep in mind that distraction and betrayal has caused demise of many notable figures and the list includes Darth Sidious.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
We know he's powerful. And? At his best, he's still canonically weaker than Yoda
We are talking about his ranking in the lineage of the Sith Lords and he is definitely among the top tier ones.

Yoda is believed to be second most powerful Jedi, who managed to stalemate the most powerful Sith Lord in history in single combat. However, Yoda' status as 2nd most powerful Jedi is also a contested issue.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He slaughtered the Ssith Academy? Canon proof?
I think this information was revealed in KOTOR 2.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
this means...what, exactly? Quotes like this are great, but I can match them with plenty Palp quotes
It means that he was very strong in the Force.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
'Unprecedented?' This isn't hard for Force users
Yes it is. Jason tried to do such a thing on one individual and we all know how it ended up. That feat shows that Revan holds exceptional command over the Force and can effectively control his moves, even when they are of extra-ordinary scale.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
They're ancient rituals, not 'techniques.' Revan would know how to use them, sure, but it's not something you pull off in combat
Revan knows more than those techniques. Bane did not revealed the details because some of those "techniques" were too dangerous to try. Revan surely learned a lot from Malachor V.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nobody ever denied Revan' powerful.
Some did under-estimated him and I silenced them in other threads.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He is, however, canonically weaker than Yoda according to the ROTS novelization-Revan as a Jedi>Revan as a Sith Lord and Yoda is the canonically most powerful Jedi
You make it sound like as if Yoda was a joke? How many Jedi can defeat him combat? Last time I checked, he was more powerful than Mace but keep in mind that power is not everything. Some other factos such as talents, circumstances and techniques also matter a lot in combat situations and Revan, in-addition to being very powerful is a brilliant tactician as well and also knows lots of techniques. He explored and studied both the Light and Dark aspects of the Force, like Sidious did.

Master Crimzon

I don't understand why the 'Revan > Sidious' argument is still going on. I mean, JESUS, it's pretty much canonical fact that Sidious is more powerful than him. Not only that, he's actually smarter and more resourceful, displaying tactics in personal combat that, as far as we know, is beyond Revan's capacity, such as being able to defeat Yoda despite being locked in a potentially eternal stalemate with him.

According to the omniscent narrator of the RotS novel, Yoda is the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known'. Sidious, by RotS, is Yoda's equal in power- by RotJ and DE he surpasses Yoda considerably. Conclusion? Sidious, as of RotS, is more powerful than Revan. As of RotJ, he's even more powerful than Revan. By DE, he will be able to nigh-curbstomp Revan.

Yeah, Sidious is more powerful than Revan. Now, I know power =/= win, but really, Revan, as far is we know, doesn't possess an uber (read: bullshit) artifact (orbalisks, amulets), and doesn't have an uncanny talent for tactics in personal combat (warfare tactics aren't personal combat tactics). Revan's saber skills are utterly unknown. Therefore, Sidious would logically lay the smack on Revan in combat.

Darth Exodus

POD Bane was hesitant to unleash some of Revans techniques, but ROT has a decade more training and experience as well as a power-boost.
And just because Revan knew them doesn't mean that he wasn't scared to used them too. She could have been shit scared of them.

Again, you are technically correct, but only in that Revan knows a more advanced version of FL that is generally more potent. But Bane has mastered FL to a silly degree, he can disintergrate people with it. For all we know Revan might have been able to use it but not very well. Think of it as a game: who are you more afraid of , the guy with Adv. Fireball at level 1 or the gur with Reg. Fireball at level 200.

Philosophy has no bearing on a fight (unless your Gandi).

Darth Exodus

This quote was told from darth vaders perspective and therefor should be made invalid as a third-person opinion.

Kotor3

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I don't understand why the 'Revan > Sidious' argument is still going on. I mean, JESUS, it's pretty much canonical fact that Sidious is more powerful than him. Not only that, he's actually smarter and more resourceful, displaying tactics in personal combat that, as far as we know, is beyond Revan's capacity, such as being able to defeat Yoda despite being locked in a potentially eternal stalemate with him.

Master Crimzon, how has Sidious display that he is smarter and more resourceful in personal combat beyond that of Revan?

1. How is a stalemate a win? Sidious survive because of the environment and time was on his side.

The only two exceptional people that Sidious fought definitely do not show Sidious as there superior (Mace and Yoda). As of ROTS Sidious cannot claim the title of most powerful or greatest force user of his era.

Sidious tactics would not have enable him to survive in the Kotor era. Killing his master in his sleep would not have gain the respect of any of his peers.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
POD Bane was hesitant to unleash some of Revans techniques, but ROT has a decade more training and experience as well as a power-boost.
How much power boost did he get?

Also, what kind of other techniques that Revan knew, did Bane unleashed in ROT?

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
And just because Revan knew them doesn't mean that he wasn't scared to used them too. She could have been shit scared of them.
This is a bad assumption. Revan learned such deadly techniques for a reason. Now if he would be hesitant to use them, than why would he waste time to learn them in the first place?

Also, Revan is "he" and nor "she." Seems to me that you defy canon more often than expected.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Again, you are technically correct, but only in that Revan knows a more advanced version of FL that is generally more potent. But Bane has mastered FL to a silly degree, he can disintergrate people with it. For all we know Revan might have been able to use it but not very well. Think of it as a game: who are you more afraid of , the guy with Adv. Fireball at level 1 or the gur with Reg. Fireball at level 200.
Dude! "Force Lightning" at ridiculous levels take the form of "Force Lightning Storm" and does lots of damage. Revan mastered this technique and his Lightning will also do serious damage. You are once again making a stupid assumption that Revan might not be able to use Force Lightning very well. Do not forget that it was he who taught Bane how to make Force Lightning more potent.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Philosophy has no bearing on a fight (unless your Gandi).
This shows that you can't grasp the bigger picture of the scenario or you don't want to. Revan' knowledge actually paved the way for the Sith to rise once again. Hence, you should accept this fact and move on. In other-words, only a Sith Lord with great potential and strong affinity with the Force would be able to do what Revan could do and become very powerful like him. Revan was so wise, smart and powerful that he was capable of re-shaping the future of the galaxy.

Darth Angel

Round 1

1) Personally I think Dooku my take it, even though I don't think it will not be easy for him (after all malak killed 2 jedi knights quite easily with the force in the star forge).

2) I am giving this to kun, not due to his amulets balts but because his sheer power in the force, who was described as immense.

3) I don't know, maybe zannah? This is a tough one, personally I am seeing zannah with more to say in the force departmend then maul. However maul can't be a weak force user in order to be handpicked by sidious. Besides maul already killed a man with force choke in shadow hunter, so he also knows how to use the force in order to kill.

4) I am with Vader on this one.

5) Caedus of course even though I don't particullary like him

6) Tough one. Both were created by the same person, both seems quite powerful. Personally I see the contest as quite even. Bane showed quite some power with force lightning or even in his force wave against kasim for example, but Revan also showed quite some amazing power when he killed the rakata's scouts and their rancor beats with what it seems force storm (described by the one) or when he force choked to death an officer of his ship in something like 3 seconds (one of the fastest force choked deaths of the star wars universe), during the jedi knight's team attack. Maybe Revan, just due to the fact that Bane seems to pretty much worship his force knowledge.

7) I am with Sidious on this one. I don't think Luke was really on sidious' level in DE, at least in the force department. Close perhaps, but still weaker in my opinion, and with less offensive force attacks. Also I don't think ROTS sidious is that much different from the DE one even though many people here thinks that way so...

8) Sadow

Round 2

1) Maybe kun, maybe dooku, it's really hard to say. Maybe kun

2) Vader

3) Very hard to say. I think that between Revan, Bane or Caedus, any of them are quite capable in the force department.

4) Sidious obviously

Round 3

Well, the stronger is Sidious, however all the other foes are very powerfull as well. However, I am seeing Sidious masterminding his foes fighting each other and then he finishes off the one who remains.

Darth Exodus

At the end of POD Bane was able to liquidise bone etc with a force push, by the end of ROT he could disintergrate metal and man with ease.
The orbalisks gave him a significant darkside power boost alongside adrenaline (strength and speed) as well.

Knowledge is power. Revan might not have been able to use them yet(he doesn't ever seem too) but one day he might be able too. Plus you have to remember that Revan was seeking to create a Sith dynasty, the more knowledge of the ancients that the Sith possess, the stronger they will become. Revan believed in passing down knowledge to her apprentices, like Bane.

Yeah, it ain't easy, but that just proves how great I am cool

For a start, Bane's lightning was compared to a storm way before his lehon training. And while its true that Revans lightning was probably very powerful, it isn't alright to just assume that its as good as Banes, which can vaporise people, without any proof.
Untill you have some, Bane will> Revan on the lightning front.

What? So, only a 'Sith Lord with great potential and a strong affinity to the force' can understand the Rule of Two?
Condescending answer: Why yes, you know, I've been having some trouble with it myself, I wish Malak could come over and explain it to me.

Again, a philosophy (ROT) has no bearing on a fight, passivism excluded.

Taven

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How much power boost did he get?

He grows in power and refines his Force abilities for a further ten years (over three times his then 3 years of learning), gains the orbalisk armour which substantially enhances his Force powers, grows in understanding of the dark side and soon gains access to all of Sadow's knowledge. Clearly, the improvement was exponential.

I don't really see what point you're trying to make here.

It wasn't an assumption. The assumption would be the claim that Revan was himself just as hesitant. Pointing out how he wasn't necessarily any less hesitant is something we can simply conclusively say using logic and common sense.

It's highly probable that you wouldn't be in a position to know how deadly they are in application until you learn the inner workings of them, in which case Revan would have been blissfully ignorant of that as he went out of his way to learn them in the first place. It's also probable that he wanted to amass as much knowledge as he could for the future of his Order. You could extend the same exact question to Bane, you realise, considering how he himself went out of his way to learn them in the first place just as Revan had.

LOL. Relevance?

Define what you mean by "ridiculous" levels. Force storm lightning is simply area effect lightning, there are degrees of magnitude, and Bane displayed the ability to perform them with an unprecedented scale while still an initiate and not an hour after learning how to summon the base technique itself (lightning).

All we know is that he was said to have been capable of destroying a few parties of the Non Force Sensitive Ratakans with his application of the technique. Nowhere is it said he was a Master.

To who? Someone like Bane? Bane was capable of absorbing a planetary level of Force lightning, storing it and keeping his internal organs protected from it, and spreading it across an entire world, and he's grown considerably since.

No he's not. He's saying "for all we know."

No it wasn't. Bane was capable of such brilliance, with an unprecedented scale, with the simple working knowledge of the base technique itself (the mentioned Force lightning).

LOL. The "bigger picture" has no relevance on this discussion.

LOL. That actually made me ROFL (seriously, the rolling on the floor and everything).

Bane's midi-chlorian count is arguably second only to Anakin, his orbalisk aided Force strength is quite possibly the greatest ever, and his affinity with the Force is used as a measuring stick for Darth fricking Zannah, who could instakill Jedi, protect herself and her surroundings from something that was tearing through an entire planet, and implant her own power into others, all as an untrained 8 year old girl. What exactly is your point? Bane hes been proven to reach a level of power and ability that Revan can't be said to even approach, and that required absolutely astronomical potential and affinity with the Force.

Partially, yes. Bane was far more influential and did far more for the future of the Sith than Revan could ever dream of, though again, relevance? This is a combat scenario you realise?

Darth Angel

WHAT? Are you kidding right? What about, for example, Luke Skywalker, Darth Sidious or Master Yoda. Are they suppose to be weaker then Bane now?

Lightsnake

God, don't get Taven started. EVERYONE is weaker than Bane to him. He's just a troll, anyways

Kotor3

It is quite amusing how some people try to make Revan into a scholar or politician. Knowledge without understanding is useless. The knowledge we do have about Revan clearly shows that he was a leader, teacher, and warrior. Bane was scared to use the techniques Revan knew, which has no bearing that Revan felt the same.

Revan used his knowledge from Malachor V to turn and train Jedi into sith. When Revan walked on Malachor V and survive through pure will power that did not stop him from plundering Malachor V and learning all he could. His knowledge of the Star Forge did not stop him from using the Star Forge. To assume that Revan knew and taught techniques that he himself was two scared to use is ridiculous.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Darth Angel
WHAT? Are you kidding right? What about, for example, Luke Skywalker, Darth Sidious or Master Yoda. Are they suppose to be weaker then Bane now?

Sidious doesn't have an astronomical midichlorian count, or his body wouldn't rot. As Yoda is his equal as of ROTS, it is possible his midichlorian count also isn't nearly on par with someone like Anakin (who's potential was twice that of Sidious at his peak).

Luke, you'd be right about. Taven probably overlooked him. The main reason for Sidious' power is his unprecedented and unparalleled knowledge of the Force - many times greater than most everyone else in the mythos. That, and the Dark is is naturally stronger than the Light.

Also, the notion that somehow Sidious is a tactical genius is absurd. Sidious was a master of grand strategy. There's plenty of evidence suggesting that his "tactics" suck. For anyone who doesn't understand the difference, I've written 60 page papers on Alexander the Great's grand strategy and his 'tactics' at the Seige of Tyre - come see me.

Revan not only possessed the gift of being a great war strategist, but a great war tactician. Saying that those skills wouldn't translate into individual combat is utterly stupid and unfounded.

DarkSerpent

Alexander the Great is the most brilliant military leader of Western civilization period.

Only Tzu, of China, is a possible equal, everybody else is a firm tier below.

Don't you ever say different.

Enyalus

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
Alexander the Great is the most brilliant military leader of Western civilization period.

Only Tzu, of China, is a possible equal, everybody else is a firm tier below.

Don't you ever say different.

Uh, I'd put Hannibal above Alexander, and Sun-Tzu didn't actually have much first hand experience with being supreme commander of a war effort. Sun Pin, his ancestor, was quite good, though. Ts'ao Ts'ao should be on your list, too. Along with Zhuge Liang.

DarkSerpent

Originally posted by Enyalus
When it comes to star wars i knows stuff. when it comes to REAL wars i know scwot. Agreed.

Enyalus

What's 'scwot'?

Darth Angel

What kind of thought is that? Tell me where or when anyone stated that Sidious' body was degradating since his midichlorian count was low... And as far as I know Yoda was pretty much stated as the jedi with highest midichlorian count from the jedi order of his time by obi-wan (when he states anakins one)... I mean, this isn't even discussible, sidious was stated was the most POWERFUL sith lord ever many times, and even though knowledge helps a lot, it can't make you surpass your potential. And if sidious was so powerful was due to his huge potential...

May you state when did his tactics miss? Because as far as I know he was the only sith who truly conquered the republic. And he did that single handed...

Alexander surpassed Hannibal, even hannibal himself stated that. In fact, if you know alexander's battles, then you should know who incredibly good his war tactics war, not only relying in his cavalry as hannibal did, but also a great siege conquer for example, something hannibal was not. I am not denying Hannibal's awesomeness (carthage is one of my favourite ancient civilizations ans cannae was a war masterpiece) but nonetheless alexander surpassed him by his feats.