Darth Krayt vs Count Dooku

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I'm not sure if I agree with you, Faunus, that Dooku riuns hims. I've been looking him up recently and he seems like he's probably pretty capable. As a padawan he was able to defeat Aurra Sing. Later, he was a General during the Clone Wars. During the Clone Wars he fought alongside Anakin and, long story short, Anakin ended up attacking Hett, yet Hett was able to disarm Anakin and then fix things between them. Years later he fought Obi-wan and did lose, but this was to Obi-wan several years after the Purge.

So at that point I wouldn't put him as capable of defeating Dooku, but then he does the typical finding of a Sith holocron and then spends several years learning from it and comes out more powerful. By the time we see him in Legacy he is about 170 years old and probably capable of giving Dooku a run for his money I think.

Are you really going to acknowledge the disarming of a berserker lunatic as Anakin at that point or getting the drop on Sing-Jax Pavan can do that, too- as great feats? Hett was good, but not to the best level. Certainly not to Sora Bulq who Dooku destroyed in combat. Certainly not to Grievous or to Anakin at the end. And Dooku was far superior to Obi-wan as well.

Darth_Glentract

I'm just saying that he wasn't a pushover per say as a Jedi and seeing as he's gained like what, over a hundred years more experience since then, I don't see Dooku pwning him. Winning, sure, but I think Dooku would be breathing heavy, to say the least.

NonSensi-Klown

Originally posted by Faunus
and made Yoda work for it on Geonosis.

Did Yoda not later fight Dooku half-heartedly on a planet steeped in the dark side, and not get a single injury?

Darth_Glentract

Not really. Dooku was definitely on some level a threat to Yoda

NonSensi-Klown

... Yoda wasn't even fully concentrated on the fight.

Gideon

Count Dooku did injure Yoda with a slash to the arm on Vjun. But this was after he hurled a woman out of a window and attacked Yoda as he attempted to halt her terminal velocity with the Force. After an engagement where Yoda professed his reluctance to hurt Dooku and Dooku, in turn, professed that he would enjoy killing Yoda, Dooku is knocked back and admits that he has been overpowered... and reveals that he put a missile in high orbit for just such a scenario. He then jumps out the window.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I'm just saying that he wasn't a pushover per say as a Jedi and seeing as he's gained like what, over a hundred years more experience since then, I don't see Dooku pwning him. Winning, sure, but I think Dooku would be breathing heavy, to say the least.

he wasn't a 'pushover,' sure, but there's a fine line between 'pushover' and having the ability to fight Dooku.

And he's been in stasis for a lot of the time. he's seen comparatively little fighting, even in the war

Darth_Glentract

So would you put him above or below Obi-wan?

Enyalus

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So would you put him above or below Obi-wan?

Technically I'd put him slightly below ROTS Obi-Wan. Factor in his two blades and the lightsaber resistant armor, though...

Lightsnake

As of ROTS? Oh yes, he's below Obi. As Krayt? hmm...more difficult.

And Obi-wan knows Jar'Kai very well. Thank Asajj for it

Darth_Glentract

My question intended for Krayt to be at his peak vs. Obi-wan

Lightsnake

Too hard to say. Krayt hasn't really done much at all.

Frankly, the only one who's shown real great power is Wyyrlok who killed an Ancient Sith

Darth_Glentract

Wyyrlok is a decent amount below Krayt though...right?

Lightsnake

In all honesty, I have no idea. Wyyrlok genuinely cares for Krayt as a friend and the Wyyrloks have always safeguarded Krayt's secret and Krayt himself when they could easily destroy him via revolt or while he was in stasis.

It's entirely possible that Wyyrlok is serving a weaker master. As I said, he manages to fight an Ancient Sith in Darth Andeddu and utterly destroys him in the Force.

Schwarzenegger

He killed an ancient sith that had been in hibernation for thousands of years so that meant he killed a sith that had not command or used the force for millenia.

Lightsnake

He wasn't in hibernation. He had sucked out the life of the acolyte to revitalize himself and he'd been active in his Holocron...the whole point was coming back to life strong as before

Enyalus

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
He killed an ancient sith that had been in hibernation for thousands of years so that meant he killed a sith that had not command or used the force for millenia.

He still managed to, through his holocron, nearly turn Darth Krayt into a krayt dragon.

Lightsnake

And he was the one to force the duel with Wyyrlok as well

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And he was the one to force the duel with Wyyrlok as well

I disagree Lightsnake. Although all the retcons make this look ridiculous, it is most likely that Andeddu predates even Marka Ragnos, and even though his spirit was in the holocron, logically his skills atrophied over a period of thousands of years, at least. That's like saying Ragnos is a weakling because he (tavion) got defeated by Jaden. It just doesn't make sense.

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I disagree Lightsnake. Although all the retcons make this look ridiculous, it is most likely that Andeddu predates even Marka Ragnos, and even though his spirit was in the holocron, logically his skills atrophied over a period of thousands of years, at least. That's like saying Ragnos is a weakling because he (tavion) got defeated by Jaden. It just doesn't make sense.
^ Bingo, this is what i meant.

And i believe darth sexy thinks andeddu predates ragnos because of his armor, it looks like ancient sith armor and it also looks like andeddu came from egypt.

Originally posted by Enyalus
He still managed to, through his holocron, nearly turn Darth Krayt into a krayt dragon. Which hints to us that he may had been extremely powerful when he was alive.

Andeddu needs a novel, now.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
^ Bingo, this is what i meant.

And i believe darth sexy thinks andeddu predates ragnos because of his armor, it looks like ancient sith armor and it also looks like andeddu came from egypt.

Which hints to us that he may had been extremely powerful when he was alive.

Andeddu needs a novel, now.

Logically, it seems Andeddu predates Ragnos. However, how the hell did he find his way to Korriban when the republic couldn't until the Great Hyperspace War? And how the hell did he find his way back to the deep core, whose hyperspace lanes are out of wack and weren't exactly researched until the age of Palpatine? There's a lot of nonsense surrounding his history. It's unlikely he would be of Bane's sith order, since there were no sith to chase him down and attempt to extract knowledge from him. IMO, his backstory was poorly conceived.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Gideon
According to the Clone Wars Visual Dictionary, Count Dooku "attempt to gain the upper hand" in his duel with Anakin Skywalker on Tattooine by revealing that Ahsoka is in danger of General Grievous's Magnaguards. After that, he gets a boot to the face and is knocked on his ass.

While he does demonstrate superiority over Anakin in their brief Force engagement, he couldn't get the upper hand in swordsmanship during that duel.
Well Anakin does get put on his ass twice in the same duel. Dooku's main purpose in the duel was to kill what he thought was Rota, if that backpack wasn't on Anakin would have been cleaved through his spine

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Logically, it seems Andeddu predates Ragnos. However, how the hell did he find his way to Korriban when the republic couldn't until the Great Hyperspace War? And how the hell did he find his way back to the deep core, whose hyperspace lanes are out of wack and weren't exactly researched until the age of Palpatine? There's a lot of nonsense surrounding his history. It's unlikely he would be of Bane's sith order, since there were no sith to chase him down and attempt to extract knowledge from him. IMO, his backstory was poorly conceived. You got a point, which is why i think they should drop any future bane novels and start writing about the era of andeddu or plagueis.

Bane is uber and compelling enough, we don't need a third book about him.

Darth Exodus

Meh, I think you should always finish wahat you start. Plus an 'uber and compelling' (I'm holding that against you till your dying day) character needs a fitting death. Which is why Maul, Dooku and Sidious, not being uber enough, all had crappy deaths.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
You got a point, which is why i think they should drop any future bane novels and start writing about the era of andeddu or plagueis.

Bane is uber and compelling enough, we don't need a third book about him.

The issue with the theory that Andeddu was 'atrophied' was the power he demonstrates as a Holocron, and that he revitalizes with one's life force...he's demonstrating no problem doing what he can do, he's in his own place of power and then he's the one forcing the duel, fully expecting to kill Wyyrlok.

This doesn't seem the actions of someone whose power has decreased

Schwarzenegger

Maybe this is an indication that perhaps he was much more powerful when he was alive? Like i said even as a holocron gatekeeper, he had not fought anybody for a long time, thousands of years possibly.

Obviously if you don't fight for even a decade let alone centuries, your skills are going to deteriorate.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The issue with the theory that Andeddu was 'atrophied' was the power he demonstrates as a Holocron, and that he revitalizes with one's life force...he's demonstrating no problem doing what he can do, he's in his own place of power and then he's the one forcing the duel, fully expecting to kill Wyyrlok.

This doesn't seem the actions of someone whose power has decreased

So because he forced a duel with Wyrrlok, he was at full power? How does one maintain power over thousands upon years, especially since his holocron has been opened what, once or twice in the span of those thousands of years? So excuse me if I doubt the validity of the claim that Andeddu was at full strength.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Logically, it seems Andeddu predates Ragnos. However, how the hell did he find his way to Korriban when the republic couldn't until the Great Hyperspace War? And how the hell did he find his way back to the deep core, whose hyperspace lanes are out of wack and weren't exactly researched until the age of Palpatine? There's a lot of nonsense surrounding his history. It's unlikely he would be of Bane's sith order, since there were no sith to chase him down and attempt to extract knowledge from him. IMO, his backstory was poorly conceived.

....Why is this a problem? The Jedi Exiles find the Sith species on Korriban in 6,900 BBY. Later, they move their headquarters to Ziost and use Korriban as a tomb world. 5,000 BBY is the Great Hyperspace War. Also about the time when Marka Ragnos dies. Assuming Darth Andeddu predates Ragnos, but comes around the time or after the time of Ajunta Pall, there's no reason why he wouldn't know where Korriban is.

Lightsnake

Andeddu used a battle with the Force for a reason. Wyyrlok was the one offering the peaceful solution, Andeddu wanted to kill him. If he was so weak-and Andeddu is hailed for wisdom and given a real streak of caution that verges of cowardice- why would he be so confident? There's nothing hinting Andeddu is weaker.

And he'd just sucked the life out of someone to restore himself. That's pretty helpful for a Sith.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Andeddu used a battle with the Force for a reason. Wyyrlok was the one offering the peaceful solution, Andeddu wanted to kill him. If he was so weak-and Andeddu is hailed for wisdom and given a real streak of caution that verges of cowardice- why would he be so confident? There's nothing hinting Andeddu is weaker.

And he'd just sucked the life out of someone to restore himself. That's pretty helpful for a Sith.

There is no indication that Andeddu was at full strength. His holocron was activated a few times at best in the past 4,000+ years. If anything, he was arrogant into goading Wyrrlok into a fight, nothing more.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Enyalus
....Why is this a problem? The Jedi Exiles find the Sith species on Korriban in 6,900 BBY. Later, they move their headquarters to Ziost and use Korriban as a tomb world. 5,000 BBY is the Great Hyperspace War. Also about the time when Marka Ragnos dies. Assuming Darth Andeddu predates Ragnos, but comes around the time or after the time of Ajunta Pall, there's no reason why he wouldn't know where Korriban is.

If Andeddu is part of the old sith empire (Ragnos), then he wouldn't know where Korriban was, seeing as how nobody in the republic knew this. Furthermore, how he managed to navigate from the deep core to Korriban and back baffles me.

Gideon

Regarding Andeddu (stupid name, btw) and Wyrrlok: if Andeddu wasn't at full strength and still engaged Wyrrlok in a fight and got his ass kicked, he's a moron.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
If Andeddu is part of the old sith empire (Ragnos), then he wouldn't know where Korriban was, seeing as how nobody in the republic knew this. Furthermore, how he managed to navigate from the deep core to Korriban and back baffles me.

...I think I'm missing something. I must be missing something.

Ragnos was part of the Old Sith Empire. He clearly knows where Korriban is. Naga Sadow was part of the Old Sith Empire. He clearly knows where Korriban is. In fact, every Sith in the Old Sith Empire knew where Korriban was because it was their tomb world. What does the Republic have to do with anything, when he wasn't a member of it?

If Darth Andeddu was a member of the Jedi Exiles or the Old Sith Empire, yes he would know where Korriban was located. It was where they officially first settled.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Enyalus
...I think I'm missing something. I must be missing something.

Ragnos was part of the Old Sith Empire. He clearly knows where Korriban is. Naga Sadow was part of the Old Sith Empire. He clearly knows where Korriban is. In fact, every Sith in the Old Sith Empire knew where Korriban was because it was their tomb world. What does the Republic have to do with anything, when he wasn't a member of it?
You're not understanding. Ragnos knows where it is based on the sith empire. Ragnos doesn't know how to go back to the republic, or go back to the republic and then come back to korriban, because the Daragon Trail hasn't been charted. So how the hell did Andeddu know how to get to Korriban and back to the Deep Core? Makes NO sense unless he was a genius.

Lightsnake

Or Andeddu was one of the Sith who fled the Republic with Ajunta Pall and the others. He just fled later when he felt his enemies were after him and buried himself in the Deep Core.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You're not understanding. Ragnos knows where it is based on the sith empire. Ragnos doesn't know how to go back to the republic, or go back to the republic and then come back to korriban, because the Daragon Trail hasn't been charted. So how the hell did Andeddu know how to get to Korriban and back to the Deep Core? Makes NO sense unless he was a genius.

thumb up

I knew you couldn't be suggesting what I thought you were, lol.

LS's explanation makes sense.

Schwarzenegger

Originally posted by Gideon
Regarding Andeddu (stupid name, btw) and Wyrrlok: if Andeddu wasn't at full strength and still engaged Wyrrlok in a fight and got his ass kicked, he's a moron. Seeing as how he thought of krayts order as pathetic and useless, i'm sure he thought he could kill them easily even not at full strength.

More idiocy from the sith.

Mizukage Yoda

Ok Krayt gets annihilated with the Force and all out. I can't see Krayt dueling with Yoda for more that fifteen seconds before being decapitated in a Commander Gree-like fashion. Dooku in Attack of the Clones lasted well over thirty seconds against the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, who put fricken Palpatine on his ass with a force push, and stalemated him. Many people seem to underestimate Dooku's sabers. He did defeat Mace Windu before, and stalemated him on Boz Pity.

Lightsnake

Andeddu is both smart and a coward. That is NOT the type to engage someone like Wyyrlok unless you're possessing a decent amount of power

Darth_Glentract

Well the problem I have with the idea that Krayt gets annihilated is that NJO and later Jedi have been usually very strong and Krayt's underlings were able to kill many of them apiece.

Mizukage Yoda

I don't think so Glentract. I mean K'kruk was a weak Jedi in the PT era, and hasn't shown much improvement and yet he's up there in Legacy Era Jedi. Not to mention Kohl Skywalker the leader of the Jedi Order lost to Darth Nihil for godssakes.

Tangible God

Yeah, once Luke died, the whole Order decreased in power and ability.

Faunus

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Not to mention Kohl Skywalker the leader of the Jedi Order lost to Darth Nihil for godssakes. He gets hit from behind while standing atop a veritable pile of death stormtroopers and Sith warriors. It was believed, actually, that Nihl had been killed by Skywalker; he'd certainly been wounded, which would explain why he was lying on the ground when he fired that fatal burst of lightning.

NonSensi-Klown

Just like 90% of Kun's theoretical fights, if he get's his amulets than he has a good chance of winning. Sabers only/force only he gets whooped.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Andeddu is both smart and a coward. That is NOT the type to engage someone like Wyyrlok unless you're possessing a decent amount of power

Or unless you think that you have amassed enough power to kill him. The point with Andeddu was that he has basically whooped Krayts ass, while just being a spirit in a holocron. Combine that with the fact that in Andeddu's time the strongest was the one to rule. So, obviously, Andeddu would have expected that Wyyrlok is considerably weaker in comparison to Krayt.

If that wasn't the case, Andeddu might simply have underestimated his opponent. And I doubt that he really was at full power. Otherwise one might ask, why he didn't just "zap" himself back into life in the millenia before that incident.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
Or unless you think that you have amassed enough power to kill him. The point with Andeddu was that he has basically whooped Krayts ass, while just being a spirit in a holocron. Combine that with the fact that in Andeddu's time the strongest was the one to rule. So, obviously, Andeddu would have expected that Wyyrlok is considerably weaker in comparison to Krayt.

If that wasn't the case, Andeddu might simply have underestimated his opponent. And I doubt that he really was at full power. Otherwise one might ask, why he didn't just "zap" himself back into life in the millenia before that incident.
Andeddu would have to be very, very stupid if he figured manipulating Krayt's armor with two other projections and then summarily being dismissed would really give him enough to take on someone like Andeddu...Andeddu knows about Krayt's Order, enough to mock it and Krayt as a pretender and he's clearly been accessed by Wyyrlok before. What we know of Andeddu, he's paranoid, greedy, intelligent and a borderline coward. He forces the fight and has no issues or hint that he's ever weaker.

And it seems pretty clear why he didn't zap himself back to life: He had the holocron hidden on Korriban, where it was found by Quin and given to Dooku and then to Palpatine...I don't see Palpatine nipping off to the Deep Core to revive Andeddu, or even offering like Wyyrlok did. After that, the Holocron ends up with Krayt. Andeddu needs the Holocron to be placed on his body, at which point he sucks the life out of the user and revives.

It seems apparent Wyyrlok might be that much more powerful than Krayt and just that good.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Tangible God
Yeah, once Luke died, the whole Order decreased in power and ability.

Oh sure, cause everyone else's power was because of Luke?

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Oh sure, cause everyone else's power was because of Luke?

That's exactly what I thought when I read it.

Tangible God

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Oh sure, cause everyone else's power was because of Luke? I'd have given you the benefit of the doubt, but I find it hard to believe your memory is that bad---I can't be that forgetful.

Luke being the source of power for the Jedi is preposterous, absurd, not even worthy of Ms. Traviss. I'm not that dumb, I'm sarcastic.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Tangible God
I'd have given you the benefit of the doubt, but I find it hard to believe your memory is that bad---I can't be that forgetful.

Luke being the source of power for the Jedi is preposterous, absurd, not even worthy of Ms. Traviss. I'm not that dumb, I'm sarcastic.

Please then, explain exactly what you were saying.

Tangible God

*stares*................................I really wish I one of those emoticons where the guy's smashing his head off the keyboard. That's how frustrating this is.

Darth_Glentract

Are you not going to explain dude?

Red Nemesis

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Are you not going to explain dude?

His point is that he shouldn't have to. Take a minute, engage your brain and think about it.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Andeddu would have to be very, very stupid if he figured manipulating Krayt's armor with two other projections and then summarily being dismissed would really give him enough to take on someone like Andeddu...Andeddu knows about Krayt's Order, enough to mock it and Krayt as a pretender and he's clearly been accessed by Wyyrlok before. What we know of Andeddu, he's paranoid, greedy, intelligent and a borderline coward. He forces the fight and has no issues or hint that he's ever weaker.

Since when did the other two Sith Lords help him with manipulating Krayt's armor? And sorry. Given that your description of Andeddu's character, I don't see why he should force a fight with Wyyrlok, if he isn't 100 % sure that he can win...

Which leads to the suggestion that he had a reason to believe that he is more powerful - and one might even think by far in comparison to Wyyrlok. Otherwise he wouldn't have forced the fight.

Ah, well. After reading the comic again: Andeddu isn't "revived" exactly. He just has his spirit forced back into his own body. He's still just equipped with the power he was wielding in his "spirit form", which - if we can thrust the words of Nadd and Sidious - leaves him almost "powerless" in comparison to the times when he was actually alive. Which would be logical, given that his body was alread decaying .

Probably he thought that he would simply be just as powerful as he was before (when alive for the first time) but simply wasn't and therefor died.

Because he took out the spirit of an Ancient Sith Lord? That put's him on one level with Jaden Korr. Not that it matter for that debate here, because Dooku would simply crush Krayt. wink

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since when did the other two Sith Lords help him with manipulating Krayt's armor? And sorry. Given that your description of Andeddu's character, I don't see why he should force a fight with Wyyrlok, if he isn't 100 % sure that he can win...
Andeddu is shown shown laughing "Let the pretender's fears consume it!" while Krayt's armor reacts...I'm not sure anything indicates he's doing it alone. And then Krayt banishes them and restores himself.

Even if he's so much weaker? Andeddu isn't the type to enter into a risky fights. When he's not at full power, that would qualify as risky

Andeddu was able to keep his corpse alive while decaying...the concentration of MCs would likely still be the same.
And his spirit reenters his body after sucking the life out of the one cultist. Seems this is what gives the whole 'return to life' thing there since we know the whole 'give energy to revive the body' thing for Sith.
While Andeddu might be powerless in spirit form to most, that seems pretty 'the norm' with Sith Spirits according to JvS...when they get the body back, it's hello power.

After he's back up and about, I assume he'd know if he was as powerful if he was before

Jaden didn't obliterate Marka's spirit

And yep, not denying Dooku>Krayt. The point is Wyyrlok=awesome, even if he is 'second' to Krayt.

Darth Sexy

Wait a second, Wyrrlok is awesome because he's got advanced skills with illusions? In that case, Aleema pwns as well. As I've stated earlier, there is absolutely NOTHING to indicate that Andeddu was at his full power, and even with the partial power he was wielding, he gave Wyrrlok all he could handle, suggesting he would be very powerful in full form.

Lightsnake

Errr...Wyyrlok is an illusion master, a master duelist, master of Force lightning, noted as a master of Sith lore and ritual....

Nothing indicates Andeddu was weakened at all and everything we know about the craven little corpse indicates that he wouldn't dare risk an open confrontation unless he thought he had all the cards and having a huge lack of personal ability would qualify as missing a few of them.

And Wyyrlok, when he got the rhythm, utterly obliterated Andeddu. The battleground was illusory, but they were fighting utterly with the Force. Different than just an illusion

Enyalus

He's a Sith Lord. All of them are absurdly arrogant. Sure he was weakened. He'd just been revived after 7,000 years of being dead.

Lightsnake

Andeddu's a unique case. He kept himself tied to the physical world by being in a holocron and then revived himself by sucking out someone's life force.

And a Sith Lord who refuses to face his enemies and goes off to bury himself somewhere seems the type to be more cautious than arrogant.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
His point is that he shouldn't have to. Take a minute, engage your brain and think about it.

I know exactly what he's saying and his point makes no sense. There is no reason for the Order's members to have decreased in power when Luke died. He wasn't even the main teacher of the students. Kam Solusar did that.

Enyalus

He was being sarcastic...

Faunus

Jeez, Glen.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Luke being the source of power for the Jedi is preposterous, absurd, not even worthy of Ms. Traviss. I'm not that dumb, I'm sarcastic.

Darth_Glentract

Darth Sexy

No lightsnake, you can't say that just because Andeddu challenged Wyrrlok, he was in his full form. There is absolutely nothing to prove that. All of the evidence points towards the other direction and the simple fact that he challenged him had more to do with hubris than anything else.

Lightsnake

Alright. Ultimatum: Find me anything from the comic saying Andeddu wasn't at full power and you'll consider the point dropped.

As I've said-AGAIN- Andeddu's 'hubris' didn't prevent him from running away from his enemies even when he held the cards.

Schwarzenegger

What indicates he was at full power when common sense says he was not? Has he fought anybody for the last thousands of years? Has he entered combat with anybody? Did he do anything to to prevent his skills from being deteriorated?

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Alright. Ultimatum: Find me anything from the comic saying Andeddu wasn't at full power and you'll consider the point dropped.

Gosh, Lightsnake. Find me anything from the comic saying Andeddu was at full power and you can consider the point dropped. The facts remain:

-> he only had access to a partial decayed corpse
-> he only had the lifeforce of one of his worshippers
-> he didn't face another being in combat for 5,000 - 7,000 years which is roughly the time period of him not using the force.

So, essentialy, he was bound to a weaker corpse without having used the force for the last 5,000 years. And you want to tell us he was at his full power? Right. What exactly were you doing the day they were giving out common sense?

And despite of that, he forces the fight with Wyyrlok despite the fact that there was no need of him to do so. So what? Shall we add "madness" to the above listed disadvantages in comparison to his older self?

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Alright. Ultimatum: Find me anything from the comic saying Andeddu wasn't at full power and you'll consider the point dropped.

As I've said-AGAIN- Andeddu's 'hubris' didn't prevent him from running away from his enemies even when he held the cards.

I love your logic lightsnake. I'll use yours. Find me anything that says Andeddu WAS at full power. I'm afraid you have common sense against you here. You don't know why he ran away from his enemies. Maybe he knew they were more powerful than him, or there were many of them. Maybe he thought he was more powerful than Wyrrlok even in his current position. It really doesn't matter since nothing indicates that he was at full strength, not to mention the idea of being a spirit for thousands of years.

Schwarzenegger

So darth sexy, do you think andeddu was a powerful individual during his reign?

Darth Sexy

I think Andeddu was extremely powerful but also arrogant and a coward. I think he new dark side secrets beyond those of most sith including the new sith order. Hell, he was able to cheat death via the force, so yes he is very powerful indeed.

Enyalus

Personally, I don't think he was extremely powerful. More powerful than LS gives him credit for. More powerful than Wyrrlok. But, not Nadd or Kun or Ragnos-esque.

And I hate the character. He's such a *****. Its like the authors said, "Hey, what if we made a douchbag pansy version of Palpatine." "Okay. We'll call him Andeddu."

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
Gosh, Lightsnake. Find me anything from the comic saying Andeddu was at full power and you can consider the point dropped. The facts remain:
Who's arguing he was weaker against the evidence? You? Ok, show me proof.

Wyyrlok says it's only a shell. The 'decaying' bodies didn't stop Palpatine in DE 1, nor did it stop Andeddu from ruling the Empire while he was decaying.

Which seems to have made the difference.

Why would that, y'know, matter? He was an active spirit in his Holocron and adept enough to affect Krayt as well as generate an illusory battleground and fighting very viciously against the powerful Wyyrlok.

'Weaker corpse?' That was the body he was ruling the Empire in. Wyyrlok even says it's just a shell. Andeddu just transferred his consciousness to the Holocron and drained someone else when revitalizing himself.

In line where you were standing in the line for tips how to be a pointless ass.

Yes, Nai, please provide me SOME evidence of how Sith spirits weaken when they transfer themselves to a Holocron for the purpose of being put back in the comatose body with aid of someone else's drained life force to empower them anew. Is there ANY other scenario you have for that? Any? No? Ok, then.

Noticing that any evidence of madness seems conspicuously absent from any apeparances or evidence

Gideon

Jesus, LS. That post is a nightmare.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I love your logic lightsnake. I'll use yours. Find me anything that says Andeddu WAS at full power.
Oh, look, nice answer. Yawn

Andeddu: They were seeking to depose me! They wanted my knowledge!

then he was a really poor Dark Lord. Ragnos and Sadow had their enemies murdered or played them off against eachother. Was Andeddu incapable of that?

Contrasting fully with his cowardice or intelligence.
Maybe, maybe, maybe. What we DO know was he fought a battle against someone he KNEW to be powerful and has accessed him before and that he's a craven, intelligent Sith.
signs point to him not losing much power and still be adept.

Andeddu wasn't a free range spirit and he was never killed, sent to Chaos and bound to a physical point. He just used the Holocron as storage and then returned to his hibernating body.

And why are you overlooking his draining of the cultist to restore himself?

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, look, nice answer. Yawn
Sure as hell beats "Prove that he wasn't!" Great common sense there LS

This is relevant to what exactly? Oh right, nothing.

Who gives a shit about what you think about Andeddu? Your opinion of his reign as a dark lord is irrelevant to this thread. The argument concerns his power, which logically must have atrophied with thousands of years and being a spirit. Come up with an argument or drop it.

Except his arrogance led him to believe that krayt is weak, wyrrlok is weak, and the entire new sith order is weak. Arrogance. Nothing but.

Ragnos was never killed either. Granted he didn't use the force to keep himself alive, his essence still lived within not 1, but 2 sith objects. Yet after 5,000 years, he was a shell of his former self and sucked it up in a weakling's (tavion) body.

Because it's irrelevant. He used a weak force user's body to restore himself and this is somehow going to grant him full strength after thousands of years?

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sure as hell beats "Prove that he wasn't!" Great common sense there LS
No, I asked you to prove your point. You responded with a nothing

He says why he fled. Period

'Must have?' When has A Sith transferred themself to an object while never having died, used the body as a 'shell' and drained someone's life to return?
Is there ANY precedent for this scenario? Andeddu's spirit isn't floating freely all this time, which is where spirits begin losing power

No, he derided them as Sith and unworthy of the title. I don't believe he ever thought Wyyrlok or Krayt were 'weaklings' He mocks Wyyrlok as a slave of Krayt.
Which goes to my point of Wyyrlok serving Krayt when he could overthrow him with no issue, given Krayt is often in stasis.

Ragnos died, though. Andeddu's body died, but he was never seperated from it. Ragnos was bodiless and free floating. And don't forget Ragnos got a boost from the scepter....his 'essence' didn't survive, either...just his personal effects. With Andeddu, he literally put his conscious mind into the Holocron

Thing is, and Wyyrlok says...the body is just a shell and it never 'died,' a final end. Andeddu did something similar to Arden Lyn by going into a trance only he put his spirit and conscious mind into an item, to preserve it. Essentially, he used it as a horcrux, where he awoke, draining the guy's life force and likely getting a boost from his place of power and not only that, but he was generating some nice power in that fight. If Andeddu was 'reduced,' it wasn't by much. Heck, from his Holocron, he was still able to manipulate and use the Force

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, I asked you to prove your point. You responded with a nothing

Actually you asked him to proof a negative. And we know that this is fallacious reasoning, don't we?

Actually, Lightsnake. We saw Exar Kun willfully giving up his body to store his own spirits into the temples on Yavin 4. And despite roaming around in those Sith temples, specifically constructed to channel force energies, the guy doesn't seem to be in his "top shape" during the JA trilogy. Nadd did practically do the same after his death, storing his spirit in the Sith talisman.

The point is, that existing in form of a spirit alone is a quite disturbing experience, even for somebody like Darth Sidious. And while he just assumed that form for a brief amount of time, Andeddu did exist in that form for more than 5,000 years. If you think about that, Ajunta Pall went pretty much mad in that time span and the same was said about Exar Kun.

And even if you leave that aside: We can see that Andeddus body has started to decay, more resembling a mummy then a living being. Each cell lost in that process would result in less midi-chlorians if they, being a symbiont life-form, did even stay alive at all after the natural death of Andeddu.

All of that leads to the conclusion that he wasn't as powerful as he was when he was actually alive.

Oh he wasn't? How does "spending millenia in a freaking holocron" not qualify as "being seperated from your body"?

And he was still most likely not in top shape. Can you please acknowledge that and stop littering this thread with your sorry excuse for an actual arguments?

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
Actually you asked him to proof a negative. And we know that this is fallacious reasoning, don't we?
"Prove he was weaker" is asking for negative proof

Neither of which compares remotely. We saw Kun bound his spirit to the temple. Not 'store it in inside.' He was rather much a spirit in his own right, like Ragnos or Graush or Pall...he just couldn't leave the area. Similar to how most of the Korriban ghosts can't skip out any time they want to. Andeddu literally put his consciousness if not his spirit into a Holocron and was capable of using the Force while inside the Holocron.
The issue is, you;re overlooking all those guys had their bodies actually die before they returned. Andeddu kept himself alive after his body died a natural death

Ajunta was going insane with guilt and remorse. It's not a pleasant state, but Andeddu wasn't awake for all of it. It's like Arden Lyn- a sort of hibernation until woken up when someone accessed the Holocron. Andeddu seems fully in control of his mental faculties.

That's Andeddu's claim to fame: when he was Dark Lord, his body had died previously and he kept it alive and intact. Wyyrlok says Andeddu's body, like the Holocron is a shell, which is why he destroys the spirit.

The issue is, you're failing to account for Andeddu is the special case. His body didn't start to rot once he was dead, it was in the same state as it was when he left it. He was practically a mummy when he was Dark Lord. Wyyrlok comments on this, as does Krayt. Considering the 'inferior' clones when they decayed did little to limit Palpatine's proficiency with the Force as they were merely shells, I fail to see why Andeddu would differ so much there.

he put his consciousness inside the thing. In effect, it acts as storage or a small, pyramid body of its own. He's not disembodied in the same sense as Ragnos, Palpatine, Nadd or Kun were.

Can you stop littering this forum with your woeful attempts at insults in lieu of actual points?

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, I asked you to prove your point. You responded with a nothing
No, I responded with an insult to your reasoning. Since all logic points to spirits losing their skills with the force over time, it is up to you to prove Andeddu was at full strength? Got it chump?

Which is irrelevant.

Ah, so his spirit must be floating around to lose power, as opposed to being locked in a holocron for 5,000+ years? Man, give it up LS.

What does this have to do with Andeddu's alleged power, which is the topic of argument?

I believe Nai addressed this point.

I did not know wyrrlok is an authority on Andeddu. I also didn't know that being in stasis for 25,000 years is ANYTHING like being locked in a holocron. So really, you don't have much of an argument.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, I responded with an insult to your reasoning. Since all logic points to spirits losing their skills with the force over time, it is up to you to prove Andeddu was at full strength? Got it chump?
Consider yourself on ignore. I've pointed out my points on why Andeddu is not a spirit and as usual, you're incapable of remaining civil, let alone not resorting to this every time

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Consider yourself on ignore. I've pointed out my points on why Andeddu is not a spirit and as usual, you're incapable of remaining civil, let alone not resorting to this every time

He left his essence in his holocron, just as Ragnos left his in his sword and the sith talismans. Don't pretend like there's any real difference. Exar Kun was the only unique case because he performed a specific ritual, which wasn't shown from any of the other spirits, and even he was severely weakened when he awoke 4,000 years later. As usual you don't have an argument so just stfu.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
"Prove he was weaker" is asking for negative proof

"Prove that he wasn't at full power" is.

So had Andeddu, because it's said that his body started decaying, which is also visible from comic.

Thanks for proving my point, Lightsnake. Andeddu's body was just a shell, which is why Wyyrlok destroys the spirit. He doesn't "kill" Andeddu but destroys the spirit of the Sith Lord. Which is exactly the same thing that Korr does against Ragnos.

Because Andeddu's mummified body is not a fresh clone body of himself. Obviously. And what? So now Andeddu's body started decaying while he was still alive? That would still mean a loss of midi-chlorians, which would still mean that he isn't in his top shape.

Rofl, Lightsnake. His spirit does actually leave his own body. So where is the difference between him and Nadd or Kun for that matter? He wasn't possessing his body for several millenia, therefor he was "disembodied". A simple fact.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
"Prove that he wasn't at full power" is.
Fine, leave it at 'prove he was weak.'

His body had died, he remained alive when in charge of the Empire. Again, nothing indicates this weakened him....it's his claim to fame. Something other Sith badly wanted to learn.

Korr destroyed Ragnos's spirit? And Wyyrlok and Andeddu fought a rather metaphysical duel. Not like Korr and Ragnos.

The concentration would hardl change and it'd seam midichlorians aren't really factoring in here. Yes, Andeddu's body was decaying when he was alive. The entire point of Andeddu is at one point his body died a physical death and he preserved it and kept rule over the Sith Empire. This doesn't indicate him being substantially weaker. What he feared was that other Sith would learn how to do this as well, hence fleeing

Their spirits were free from any confines. Andeddu gave himself the Holocron as a new holding and remained in apparent hibernation until it was accessed

And? Are you really going to say that we c an really measure how a spirit-or consciousness, it's not made clear which is in the Holocron- is going to decay or not when it's inside the Holocron and capable of using the Force therein?

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Which is irrelevant to the argument concerning Andeddu's power.

Maybe, maybe not. Then he didn't come out of his holocron for 5,000 years and was "resurrected" by a weak force user. Try again.

We can logically say that a spirit who hasn't used the force in 5,000+ years is obviously going to diminish in skill.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Fine, leave it at 'prove he was weak.'

And as I said before, Lightsnake: Proof that he was as strong as he was in his top shape, after not using the force for several thousand years and being freshly "resurrected" into his already decaying body. Common sense actually contradicts that idea pretty much.

Once more, Lightsnake. The state in which he was in before transferring his spirit into the holocron doesn't matter. Through that spirit-transfer, he gave up his body and became a Sith spirit, who are, by every definition of the word "powerless" in comparison to their own former selves. And then, after existing in that state for several millenia, he entered his own body again, which was fueled by the energy of a weaker force user.

And please. It's not too unique at all, considering that Simus managed to stay alive as a freaking head seperated from his body. Yet I doubt that Simus was anywhere near his top shape force abilities in that form.

Technically, this is exactly what Korr did, considering he basically forced Ragnos spirit out of Tavions body. And once more: Wyyrlok did directly attack Andeddu's spirit, not his body, which leads to the suggestion that there was a missing "link" between them. Otherwise Wyyrlok would have had to kill the already dead body and then deal with the spirit.

Apparently he was weakened enough to fear the same people that he ruled over before, apparently unquestioned, given that he managed to die a natural death. Going by that, he did actually went weaker, feeling weak enough himself to run rather than maintain his rule over the Sith Empire.

They were? It didn't appear to me as if Kun's spirit was free from any confines, going by the fact that he was bound to Yavin 4. And sorry. Where is the proof that Andeddu was actually in hybernation when the holocron was deactivated? He was just a conciousness trapped in the device.

No. I'm merely suggesting that somebody who spent millenia in form of a spirit inside some device, without using the force, would be "out of training" - that alone making him a less powerful opponent than he was before. Add to this a possible change of personality , which hints to some mental issues and add the fact that he was freshly resurrected.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
And as I said before, Lightsnake: Proof that he was as strong as he was in his top shape, after not using the force for several thousand years and being freshly "resurrected" into his already decaying body. Common sense actually contradicts that idea pretty much.
And as I said before, prove he was any weaker. This is something he'd set up beforehand and prepared for, on his homeworld, after having taken someone's life to restore himself.
Do you really see someone like Andeddu forcing a battle against someone if he isn't absolutely certain he can win it? Do you honestly see him trying that if he's not at or near his full power?

In the Holocron, he's able to use his 'wizardry' against Krayt and drain the life from an acolyte. It'd seem he's not powerless there. Again, is there any precedent for what Andeddu did to judge it by?

Arden Lyn woke up about 25,000 years and was able to horribly injure Antinnis Tremayne and kill Jerec's personal apprentice before she was subdued. Andeddu's body was left in the same state he left it in and he drained the life of his cultist to boot. Life is life and it seems to have been enough to restore Andeddu.

Simus was able to keep himself alive. His head was not physically decaying and as we know losing body parts kind of hurts the overall count when you cross some line, I think existing as a head qualifies. If Andeddu was weaker in his state, it doesn't show given he remained in charge of the Empire and that people badly want to grab this secret.
Simus's state was apparently due to a mix of alchemy and sorcery after his head was seperated when he was 'cut down.' Andeddu's seems something plainly different

Andeddu was the one to create the metaphysical battleground so it seemed just a duel because them on that sort of plane.
That or being physically killed there sent Andeddu's spirit into chaos.

Wyyrlok implies Andeddu could have faced them. The issue is, Andeddu was a coward. Andeddu was scared they were going to steal his knowledge and secrets and were hunting him when he fled.

Sith Holocrons tend to be at rest until activated. The only other precedent I can think of for this would be Kla who also transferred his soul to a Holocron.
And Kun bound himself inside the temples. For all intents and purposes, it seems he was in the same state as Ragnos or the others...he was imprisoned same as them, though, only on Yavin rather than Korriban.

Andeddu's cowardly streak doesn't seem to be changed. His body would be in the same state he left it and in the Holocron, he was capable of using the Force.

the only reason he'd have engaged Wyyrlok would be that he honestly thinks he's stronger and having drained Gerlun? This is something Andeddu had prepared for initially and he had to have taken that he might have to do some fighting into account.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And as I said before, prove he was any weaker. This is something he'd set up beforehand and prepared for, on his homeworld, after having taken someone's life to restore himself.
Do you really see someone like Andeddu forcing a battle against someone if he isn't absolutely certain he can win it? Do you honestly see him trying that if he's not at or near his full power?
You obviously don't get it, as usual. Common sense dictates that spirits lose an X amount of their force abilities over time when they're not using them, much less when they're confined to a holocron or a sith talisman. You don't know the details of the restoration or the weak force user. What you know is he was confined to a holocron for 5,000+ years. The onus is on you to prove that he retained his full potency. Either prove up or shut up.

Nobody claimed he was powerless, but for all you know, that was the extent of his power.

You don't know how powerful Lyn was. Probably not very powerful. Nor do you know what force abilities she possessed before she was in stasis so your point is moot.

Simus living as head means nothing for his combat and force skills, seeing as he had none as a head. Andeddu's spirit was in a holocron, so logically over 5,000 years, his force skills will atrophy, as did ragnos, and Kun.

So? He was a coward so what? How does this begin to answer the question at hand? Oh right, it doesn't.

But to the same extent 5,000+ years ago? Highly unlikely.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And as I said before, prove he was any weaker.

Is arguing in circles a nice hobby, Lightsnake? I'd thought it would be nice to try it myself, but then I thought it would be boring to type the same stuff again and again ad nauseam.

Thanks for repeating my previous point word by word, Lightsnake. If I should ever need a parrot, I'll give you a call. But let me ask you a question: Do you see the guy who fled from the Sith Empire forcing a battle at all? And, really, do you think that - in Andeddu's thought - he was under the impression that he would need his full power to deal with people like Krayt or Wyyrlok whom he constantly insulted?

See. If I'm under the impression that somebody can't play basketball, I wouldn't assume that I need to be Michael Jordan in order to beat him in the sport.

Meaning what, Lightsnake? I never said he was entirely powerless. I said "powerless in comparison to the time when he was actually alive". The likes of Ragnos, Kun and Nadd also don't appear to be "powerless" in their respective spirit forms, but they are certainly rather far away from their "top shape".

Yes. Arden Lyn woke up - where is your proof that Andeddu's consciousness remained inactive? And hell - what do we know about Arden Lyn's original skill level? Nothing? Right. And what Lightsnake? Life is life? For all we know, Andeddu used the life force to free himself from the holocron and store his spirit in his body. What else?

Not when you "cross some line", Lightsnake. The midi-chlorians are symbiotic beings existing in the cells of a force user. Hence every "decay" of the body will result in the lost of midi-chlorians, because those cells are dying, meaning that the midi-chlorians will lose their living space . Andeddu already looked more than a mummy than a living creature -> cell loss -> midi-chlorian loss.

And that can heavily influence the power of a force user, Lightsnake. Think about it: Anakin, losing his lower legs and one arm went from 200 % Sidious to 80 % Sidious.

Until the day when he saw his position threatened and, because of that, left the Sith Empire to hide his body and store his consciousness in the holocron. Apparently the guy did lose some power there, otherwise he wouldn't be afraid of the people he - apparently - held dominion over until the point of his natural death.

Oh. You think Andeddu archieved this feat without alchemy and sorcery?

The point that matters is, Lightsnake, that he was forced to flee to defend his secrets in the first place. Face it: He was the Dark Lord of the Sith and ruled over the same people that wanted to "steal" his knowledge later. Therefor he was the most powerful individual around at that point in time - before his "death". After that? Apparently not any longer because if that would have been the case he would simply have gone on with ruling the Empire, instead of running away.

...and Andeddu's spirit was also imprisoned - but in the holocron. There is no difference here. He seperated his spirit from his body and stored it elsewhere. The fact that his body didn't decay further doesn't matter.
And yes, Lightsnake. Holocrons tend to be at rest until they are activated but in this case, we had a consciousness able to use the force stored within the holocron. It's not as if this had been a normal holocron.

Okay, Lightsnake. What is it now? Either his spirit was "shut down" when the holocron wasn't activated or he was able to constantly use the force while being trapped in their. Both doesn't work. And why the hell, even assuming that he was capable of doing it, would he have used the force while being in the holocron. He didn't have much reason to do that.

So what, Lightsnake? To think that he's stronger than Wyyrlok, whom he despised as much as Krayt and the other Sith, he wouldn't necesserily have to be in his prime or even close to it. And what kind of "fighting" are you thinking about? Essentially it would just involve a drain attack against somebody not expecting to be attacked at all - and we know that Sith spirits are quite capable of killing force users.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
Is arguing in circles a nice hobby, Lightsnake? I'd thought it would be nice to try it myself, but then I thought it would be boring to type the same stuff again and again ad nauseam.
Just going by the standards you set

Oh, look, another insult.
And I'm the one repeating things.

If he was weaker than he used to be? No

When the hell did he belittle them for power? He mocked Krayt for fear and Wyyrlok for being Krayt's slave and the order for being pretenders to the throne but at no point in my recollection does he demean their power and considering Krayt is called the most powerful being in the galaxy at the start of Legacy, which includes guys like Roan Fel, Kol Skywalker and Wyyrlok himself, who's a master of Sith Lor, power and ritual coupled with Krayt's personal instruction at the hands of an original sith Lord and somehow, I really doubt Andeddu will be dumb enough to disparage them for their personal power

Problem is, you'd probably want to play him when you're not feeling like you're going to fall over and you know he can at least dunk a few shots

And we have any comparison for what Andeddu did? Without dying, transferring their consciousness to an object to later repossess it with someone's lifeforce and stand up good as new? Don't you think if he was weaker than usual a comment would have come from Andeddu or Wyyrlok on the subject?

Arden was the second in command and second most powerful of the Legions of Lettow, and considering how Xendor has been described, that's likely considerable power. She killed a powerful Jedi Master post war and when she woke up, it took some of Palpatine's best, including Tremayne and Tobin to subdue her. Lyn knew things that had been long forgotten. It would be a good bet she's nothing resembling weak

All we know is that he set it up. Apparently all he needed was to be placed on his body's chest. The life force was either a bonus to insure that he eliminated one obstacle to deal with when he was alive or to restore himself

Again, when your body is just a 'shell,' this apparently isn't the case considering Palpatine in most of his withered, non-sabatoged figures.
If this is the case, then Sion or Nihilus should be weaker as well, considering how utterly ruined Sion's body is and Nihilus is a decaying husk who bound his soul to his armor.

Issue is, Anakin's body was absolutely destroyed...unless he used some forgotten Sith technique to stay up and at 'em, though, I'm not really seeing how we can use Anakin or Lumiya as measuring sticks.
Again, by contrast, we have Sion and Nihilus. Andeddu's very claim to fame was keeping control post apparent mortem. I don't see Sith clamoring to learn how you keep a mummified body alive when it drops your power significantly

How does this follow? He's scared of his enemies, wants to protect his secrets and flees. The difference is he probably hadn't been keeping himself alive by pure power to that point and Wyyrlok even notes that he should have faced them rather than fleeing.

We have literally no idea how he did it. It could've been a technique he invented and then was lost after he fled.

Either he feared a coalition of his enemies, he became utterly paranoid after he created this technique and fled fast as possible or he fancied running away and waiting to come back at a point when his enemies were dead and he'd have no trouble climbing to the top again, which seemed his plan in the Legacy era.

Andeddu didn't seem to have many issues being a Holocrorn for so long. He just transferred his consciousness to the thing and got his body in the same condition he left it. Again, this isn't really something we can judge with any precedent, save for Kla.

He's able to use his 'wizardry' with Krayt and drain Gerlun's life for two things.
When he's activated, at least, he's got command over the Force there. Not sure of any other Holocrons that can do that.

'Despise' doesn't equate to 'think is weak.' Ludo and Naga despised one another and didn't underestimate the other in battle. Kaan despised Bane and didn't underestimate him when the time came. Despising Wyyrlok and his order as perversions of what the Sith stand for do not carry over to being suicidally overconfident

And he drains him why, exactly? Theone who's loyal to him? Likely, it was needed to return him to life and restore at least a measure of his ability.
And I sincerely doubt he didn't receive a boost from Prakith.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Just going by the standards you set

That comes from the fact that I have to reply to the same bullshit again and again...before you finally see that your point has been utterly defeated. But hell...that's not going to happen, is it?

The fact that matters is, Lightsnake: He didn't take them serious. You don't insult people if you think that the same people might pose any real threat to you. By his own comments, Andeddu himself considered them not worthy wearing the title of a Sith Lord. He even mocks Krayt as a "pretender". So what? Apparently he didn't think that they were powerful. That they were quite strong doesn't matter here because Andeddu might have perceived them as some sort of "lesser beings" in comparison to himself in full power. And hell. Obviously Wyyrlok was astonished by the wealth of knowledge around him, when he reached Andeddu's corpse. Enough to...well...not care so much about the former Dark Lord any longer.

So apparently, Andeddu had more knowledge and - going by his behavior - viewed himself as more powerful than Krayt or Wyyrlok. So what is it now? Was the former paranoid and cautious Sith Lord so cocky that he forced the fight with a more powerful being? Or can it be that he was weaker than before, therefore overestimated his own ability and died because of that flawed judgement?

Yeah. Right. Because Wyyrlok was in a situation to judge the power of Andeddu then in comparison to Andeddu when he was alive and Sith Lords are known for admitting their weakness to people they want to fight . The only one who could have given a statement like that would have been the narrator. And do you see that happen in the SW universe very often?

So, Lightsnake: She was pretty much the second in command of the top dog Dark Sider in her own time. Do you think that, even if she should have been weaker than before, she could have handled Tremayne? I, personally, think that would be the case. So what?

What kind of "obstacle" would a loyal minion offer? Andeddu apparently needed the life-force to re-enter his body. And instead of doing something wicked like, I don't know, rise from the ground and confront Wyyrlok directly, he creates some illusionory battle ground for them to fight him in some sort of metaphysical enviroment. Can it be that his body was in not-so-top-shape?

Those figures where fresh clones of Sidious own self, Lightsnake. If you clone a force user the result is another force user. See Joruus or Luuke. Sidious wasn't a living corpse like Andeddu.

Since when are Sion or Nihilus the epitomes of force power. They both have one special force ability but aside of that?

Simus apparently learned how to keep his own head alive, Lightsnake. Apparently he had some reason to do so, despite of the fact that he was pretty much "powerless" in that very incarnation. What reason? Just to stay alive, probably.

Oh what now, Lightsnake? Now he needs power to keep himself alive which would, logically, mean that he's multi-tasking, force-wise, to just stay alive, which, of course, also means that he can't use "all he can" in combat because that would mean he can't keep himself alive any longer and dies. Which then leads to the fact that he wasn't as powerful as when he was a live in his post mortem state - which I'm trying to tell you here the entire time?

If it was anything that he just had in his head, Lightsnake, it would make no sense for him to flee, would it?

Why would he fear any later Sith less than the people that were around in his own time, Lightsnake?

The point is, Lightsnake, that he seperated his spirit from his body. In that form, a force user is naturally weaker than in his original state. That he transferred the spirit back in again doesn't matter. There was no "link" between body and spirit. He just forced it from one storage place to another.

Who the hell claimed that he didn't have any command over the force at all? I'm just suggesting that the fact that he died and the process of leaving his body did weaken his ability to use the force. Anything else would be a surprise...

As I said above: He wouldn't insult people that he sees as a threat for himself. Apparently Wyyrlok and Krayt were just some minor Sith Lords in his eyes. Hence why he insulted them. Hence why he forced the confrontation with Wyyrlok.

Now it's just "a measure" in comparison to his "full power"? So now you agree with the idea that he was less powerful than before?

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
That comes from the fact that I have to reply to the same bullshit again and again...before you finally see that your point has been utterly defeated. But hell...that's not going to happen, is it?

The fact that matters is, Lightsnake: He didn't take them serious. You don't insult people if you think that the same people might pose any real threat to you. By his own comments, Andeddu himself considered them not worthy wearing the title of a Sith Lord. He even mocks Krayt as a "pretender". So what? Apparently he didn't think that they were powerful. That they were quite strong doesn't matter here because Andeddu might have perceived them as some sort of "lesser beings" in comparison to himself in full power. And hell. Obviously Wyyrlok was astonished by the wealth of knowledge around him, when he reached Andeddu's corpse. Enough to...well...not care so much about the former Dark Lord any longer.

So apparently, Andeddu had more knowledge and - going by his behavior - viewed himself as more powerful than Krayt or Wyyrlok. So what is it now? Was the former paranoid and cautious Sith Lord so cocky that he forced the fight with a more powerful being? Or can it be that he was weaker than before, therefore overestimated his own ability and died because of that flawed judgement?

Yeah. Right. Because Wyyrlok was in a situation to judge the power of Andeddu then in comparison to Andeddu when he was alive and Sith Lords are known for admitting their weakness to people they want to fight . The only one who could have given a statement like that would have been the narrator. And do you see that happen in the SW universe very often?

So, Lightsnake: She was pretty much the second in command of the top dog Dark Sider in her own time. Do you think that, even if she should have been weaker than before, she could have handled Tremayne? I, personally, think that would be the case. So what?

What kind of "obstacle" would a loyal minion offer? Andeddu apparently needed the life-force to re-enter his body. And instead of doing something wicked like, I don't know, rise from the ground and confront Wyyrlok directly, he creates some illusionory battle ground for them to fight him in some sort of metaphysical enviroment. Can it be that his body was in not-so-top-shape?

Those figures where fresh clones of Sidious own self, Lightsnake. If you clone a force user the result is another force user. See Joruus or Luuke. Sidious wasn't a living corpse like Andeddu.

Since when are Sion or Nihilus the epitomes of force power. They both have one special force ability but aside of that?

Simus apparently learned how to keep his own head alive, Lightsnake. Apparently he had some reason to do so, despite of the fact that he was pretty much "powerless" in that very incarnation. What reason? Just to stay alive, probably.

Oh what now, Lightsnake? Now he needs power to keep himself alive which would, logically, mean that he's multi-tasking, force-wise, to just stay alive, which, of course, also means that he can't use "all he can" in combat because that would mean he can't keep himself alive any longer and dies. Which then leads to the fact that he wasn't as powerful as when he was a live in his post mortem state - which I'm trying to tell you here the entire time?

If it was anything that he just had in his head, Lightsnake, it would make no sense for him to flee, would it?

Why would he fear any later Sith less than the people that were around in his own time, Lightsnake?

The point is, Lightsnake, that he seperated his spirit from his body. In that form, a force user is naturally weaker than in his original state. That he transferred the spirit back in again doesn't matter. There was no "link" between body and spirit. He just forced it from one storage place to another.

Who the hell claimed that he didn't have any command over the force at all? I'm just suggesting that the fact that he died and the process of leaving his body did weaken his ability to use the force. Anything else would be a surprise...

As I said above: He wouldn't insult people that he sees as a threat for himself. Apparently Wyyrlok and Krayt were just some minor Sith Lords in his eyes. Hence why he insulted them. Hence why he forced the confrontation with Wyyrlok.

Now it's just "a measure" in comparison to his "full power"? So now you agree with the idea that he was less powerful than before?

On reread of the issue, seems we were both wrong about the basics of it: Seems Andeddu didn't transfer his spirit to the Holocron...he transfers his 'intellect' to the Holocron and enters into a hibernation...when the Holocron is puton his chest, it wakes him up and gives him the knowledge, whereupon he drains Gerlun.

In effect, it's more like Arden LYn, there.