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Who wins?

u serious? oni-wan

well, lets think about it. Obi-Wan only beat him before because he used Dark Side emotion power and caught him completely by suprise. ROTS Obi-Wan would never do that. Maul's style, and lightsaber, make it easier for him to fight 1-1.

I think it would be a long and gruesome fight, but Obi-Wan would come out victorious in the end.

And Kenobi's conversion to, and literal mastery of Soresu will mean jack?

Maul wins. Hes the better fighter. End of story.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And Kenobi's conversion to, and literal mastery of Soresu will mean jack?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

well it does mean jack next to mastery of the deadliest form (therfore high level mastery of multiple forms) + mastery of teras kasi and mastery of a deadly double bladed weapon. + Maul's physical and force assisted abilites pushed to their utmost + Mauls martial arts and close combat abilites which hes already proven can knock a much younger Obiwan senseless with a kick.

but what Obiwan wins solely because of his mastery of soresu?? seriosuly doubt it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
well it does mean jack next to mastery of the deadliest form (therfore high level mastery of multiple forms) + mastery of teras kasi and mastery of a deadly double bladed weapon. + Maul's physical and force assisted abilites pushed to their utmost + Mauls martial arts and close combat abilites which hes already proven can knock a much younger Obiwan senseless with a kick.

but what Obiwan wins solely because of his mastery of soresu?? seriosuly doubt it. And Maul wins solely because he's "mastered the deadliest form"? Seriously doubt that that equals automatic WIN against the prodigy of defense.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And Maul wins solely because he's "mastered the deadliest form"? Seriously doubt that that equals automatic WIN against the prodigy of defense.

did you just ignore all this :

"+ mastery of teras kasi and mastery of a deadly double bladed weapon. + Maul's physical and force assisted abilites pushed to their utmost + Mauls martial arts and close combat abilites which hes already proven can knock a much younger Obiwan senseless with a kick."


Whats Obiwan got against all that apart from his mastery of soresu.

maul is highly over rated. obiwan wins, he easily beat a much deadiler saber combatant

Obi-Wan disabled one side of his blade in the movie. But that was probably luck. Which Yoda says isn't real.

Originally posted by jalek moye
maul is highly over rated.

Not really


Obiwand will win with difficulty imo, but who is exactly is is this "much deadiler saber combatant" that he beat "easily?"

Seconded.


I feel exactly the same, except the opposite. Sometimes.










































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Kenobi takes this.

I can see Maul taking this actually. What's Obi-Wan really got over him? In technical ability, with his mastery of Juyo and by extension "high end mastery of multiple forms," mastery of Teras Kasi, his ability to combine it with his saber style to give him a somewhat alien style, and using a weapon that Obi-Wan can't be said to be very familiar with, Maul -- on paper -- easily has the advantage.

Physically, he pushed his physical capabilities and Force assisted abilities to their very limit, which, as a Zabrak who are naturally gifted with a huge capacity for physical strength and being selected by Sidious largely for his potential in the Force, are likely very high. Again, on paper, he has the firm advantage. So really, what has Obi-Wan really got going for him other than a thus far unsubstantiated level of ability with Soresu? By all available evidence, Maul would emerge as the clear victor.

Thus far unsubstantiated? Obi-Wan is THE Master of Soresu. THE Master.

As for Obi-Wan not being familiar with the weapon and style...

THEY HAVE FOUGHT BEFORE!

Originally posted by Anon E. Mous
Thus far unsubstantiated? Obi-Wan is THE Master of Soresu. THE Master.

That would be the definition of unsubstantiated. Your claim that Obi-Wan is "THE Master of Soresu" is not only unsupported but overly vague and a tiny bit manic.



"and using a weapon that Obi-Wan can't be said to be VERY familiar with"

If you seriously want to argue that their minutes of fighting each other will give Obi-Wan enough insight into Maul's style that he would gain some kind of advantage more than ten years after their duel, good luck trying to prove up on that crazy assertion.

Originally posted by DUOLC OLLOPA
I can see Maul taking this actually. What's Obi-Wan really got over him? In technical ability, with his mastery of Juyo and by extension "high end mastery of multiple forms," mastery of Teras Kasi, his ability to combine it with his saber style to give him a somewhat alien style, and using a weapon that Obi-Wan can't be said to be very familiar with, Maul -- on paper -- easily has the advantage.

Physically, he pushed his physical capabilities and Force assisted abilities to their very limit, which, as a Zabrak who are naturally gifted with a huge capacity for physical strength and being selected by Sidious largely for his potential in the Force, are likely very high. Again, on paper, he has the firm advantage. So really, what has Obi-Wan really got going for him other than a thus far unsubstantiated level of ability with Soresu? By all available evidence, Maul would emerge as the clear victor.

I'm not trying to wrongly accuse you (so forgive me if I'm wrong) but are you a sock of Darth Power?

According to you Darth Power, Anakin is on par with Mace Windu, and Obi Wan beat Anakin. So unless if Maul > Mace...

I doubt Darth Power has a sock account...

yes...

First Advent and now you!?

Originally posted by DUOLC OLLOPA
First Advent and now you!?

Huh? What do you mean?

No he's not wrong, it's true! Me and Darth Power are one in the same.

I don't even think it's a tough fight for obi-wan he easily took pout grievous and nothing maul does will get passed obi-wans defenses obi takes this easily

You know exactly what I mean.

Originally posted by DUOLC OLLOPA
No he's not wrong, it's true! Me and Darth Power are one in the same.

DP was a nebaris sock?



(!?!?!?!?)

Whom is Nebaris? I do not know of this Nebaris.

Originally posted by DUOLC OLLOPA
You know exactly what I mean.

Uh, no I don't.

Originally posted by DUOLC OLLOPA
No he's not wrong, it's true! Me and Darth Power are one in the same.

You shouldn't say that; Rex might find out and ban you...

BTW, Darth Power, you seem to be a big form 7 fan

I also go by the name of Dr McBingowings.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Uh, no I don't.

Stop lying.

Originally posted by DUOLC OLLOPA
I also go by the name of Dr McBingowings.

Darth Power was a sock of...Sexy...and Nebaris...what's next, he's a sock of Nai, Lucien, Rex...and EVERYONE? So everyone that I encounter is really all one person, and I'm talking...to one person? AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Uh, no I don't.



You shouldn't say that; Rex might find out and ban you...

BTW, Darth Power, you seem to be a big form 7 fan

You're out of your league; this guy drove Gideon off the boards!




Originally posted by DUOLC OLLOPA
Whom is Nebaris? I do not know of this Nebaris.
This has to stop. Not only is it a weak catchphrase, the interrogative 'Whom is nebaris?' is grammatically faulty. 'Whom' is used incorrectly. In my experience, people who misuse 'whom' are either painfully ignorant (which Gideon assures us that you are not) or intentionally mutilating the English language in an attempt to sound more intelligent.

On the off chance that you are simply ignorant, read through this guide on the usage of 'who' and 'whom'.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Darth Power was a sock of...Sexy...and Nebaris...what's next, he's a sock of Nai, Lucien, Rex...and EVERYONE? So everyone that I encounter is really all one person, and I'm talking...to one person? AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
lawl

To whom in the hell do you think you are talking to here, little man!? Talk out of turn like that again and it won't be pretty.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
lawl

Don't "lawl" me Nebaris/Rex/Nemesis/Nai!!!

Back on topic, I think that Obi Wan takes all three.

This is exactly why you continue to get flamed from forum to forum all across these boards. Know whom you are talking to, fool.

So it is intentional. I suppose that is preferable to ignorance; at least you know you look like an incompetent needy prick.



(Again with the 'u get flamezd lotz!' thing? The only time I've ever been flamed was by Gideon. Once. Recently. Forum Ninja doesn't count 'cause he was a troll.)

Originally posted by DUOLC OLLOPA
First Advent and now you!?

Advent is first in everything. Somebody prove me wrong.

Gideon, Darth Sexy, Forum Ninja, SW Legend, Advent flamed you in the "presuit Darth Vader vs Darth Vader RoTJ" exactly 7 minutes ago, Kadesh used to do it en mass, and that's not even getting into "The Battle Bar #2" era of flames where I recall Nai being particularly catty.

Originally posted by DUOLC OLLOPA
Gideon, Darth Sexy, Forum Ninja, SW Legend, Advent flamed you in the "presuit Darth Vader vs Darth Vader RoTJ" exactly 7 minutes ago, Kadesh used to do it en mass, and that's not even getting into "The Battle Bar #2" era of flames where I recall Nai being particularly catty.

Gideon and DS don't count- the former is an ass and the latter is incompetent.

Forum ninja was a tool troll.

I don't remember SW legend insulting me at all, and if Advent's post:

qualifies as 'flaming' then I've been severely underestimating my own capabilities at that skill.


Whom is Kadesh?


Nai? He's GERMAN GAY. No one cares what he thinks.


What about you? The entire board enjoys bashing/flaming you. Did you stop to think that there's a reason for that? (Not to mention the fact that if I get flamed and it is an indication of intelligence/skill/whatever then your record is far more damning than is mine.)

^Kadesh is Manslayer/Ivalice/Arnold/Wolverine or whatever name he is going by these days

Oh. He bashes everyone and he enjoyed bashing BOOG. I don't think he's a problem.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

According to you Darth Power, Anakin is on par with Mace Windu, and Obi Wan beat Anakin. So unless if Maul > Mace...

Wow thanks for really twisting my veiws. You guys seriously need to stop obsessing over me.. And for the record ObiWan is NOT on par with Anakin. Far from it.

They only fight evenly because they know each others moves inside out. So the above A>B>C is a prime example of how that argument is constantly abused.

Originally posted by DUOLC OLLOPA
No he's not wrong, it's true! Me and Darth Power are one in the same.

Hey look im quoting myself

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Darth Power was a sock of...Sexy...and Nebaris...what's next, he's a sock of Nai, Lucien, Rex...and EVERYONE? So everyone that I encounter is really all one person, and I'm talking...to one person? AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

HAHA! You lot are mad

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
I don't even think it's a tough fight for obi-wan he easily took pout grievous

Yeah Fisto also took out greivous.. but im betting Sidious culdnt take out Maul as quickly as he took Fisto out(and while fighting Mace!)

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
and nothing maul does will get passed obi-wans defenses

How about his Teras Kasi, or his deadly kicks..

hell even Ventress knocked Obiwan's saber away from him. Proof that Obiwan is far from impentetrable in terms of his defence.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
obi takes this easily

When has Obwan EVER defeated a Sith Lord easily??!! Thats just not gna happen.

I don't see Obi Wan winning this.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I don't see Obi Wan winning this.

Because...

@Darth Power

If Obi Wan isn't on par with Anakin, then why did he beat Anakin? And why did he train/be the master of Anakin if he's weaker?

Obi Wan wins, albiet w/difficulty (true, it's not gna be easy).

Because Maul was a master of multiple lightsaber forms, and was said to be the deadliest sith warriors in history. Maul also single handily weakened the galaxies most dangerous criminal organization. I can not see Obi Wan doing that.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Gideon and DS don't count- the former is an ass and the latter is incompetent.
If by incompetent you mean someone that makes points and then constantly has to spell them out to you while your only response is "I don't get it", then yes, I'm "incompetent". The problem is, what would that make you? Special?


Yes we all make fun of Noobaris but unlike you, he doesn't have to ride someone's nuts all the time.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
@Darth Power

If Obi Wan isn't on par with Anakin, then why did he beat Anakin?

did you not watch the movie? he got the high ground. he may be tactically smarter, but hes not as strong or as powerful, as Anakin.(though they might be quite equal in technical skill) They fight evenly because they know each others moves inside out according to both NG and ROTS novel.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
And why did he train/be the master of Anakin if he's weaker?

Thats a retarded statement.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Obi Wan wins, albiet w/difficulty (true, it's not gna be easy).

I think if Obiwan won it would be with A LOT of Difficulty.. But no ones provided any sound reasoning why Obiwan would win. So im sticking to Maul because hes physically stronger and a better fighter.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
did you not watch the movie? he got the high ground. he may be tactically smarter, but hes not as strong or as powerful, as Anakin.(though they might be quite equal in technical skill) They fight evenly because they know each others moves inside out according to both NG and ROTS novel.


So intelligence shouldn't factor into the fight?


That's a retarded statement

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So intelligence shouldn't factor into the fight?


Well yeah it plays a role, but thats where A>B>C doesnt work.. Obiwan beat Anakin by tactically outsmarting him(at a point when Anakins mental focus was probably at its lowest)..

but the fact is Anakins more powerful and a better swordsman, which is why Obiwan could never be a match for Dooku, not even in his wildest dreams, yet Anakin is more than a match for the Count.

So How does your A>B>C theory work there? Not very well.

Never fear. He'll try to.

Obi Wan was a Jedi Master, Darth Maul was a Sith Padawan. In the TPM any one of the council members could of beaten Maul, and i believe that is the same case in ROTS

Originally posted by Higilo
Obi Wan was a Jedi Master, Darth Maul was a Sith Padawan. In the TPM any one of the council members could of beaten Maul, and i believe that is the same case in ROTS

That's terrible logic. Despite being an apprentice Maul is still considered a sith lord. Qui-gon would have been on the council if he listened to them, which speaks highly about his skills yet Maul killed him and killed Anoon Bondara, who all evidence points to him being the jedi battle master prior to Cin Drallig. By your logic Dooku couldn't best any one the council because he was Sidious's apprentice (same rank as Maul) and never the DLOTS.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
That's terrible logic. Despite being an apprentice Maul is still considered a sith lord. Qui-gon would have been on the council if he listened to them, which speaks highly about his skills yet Maul killed him and killed Anoon Bondara, who all evidence points to him being the jedi battle master prior to Cin Drallig. By your logic Dooku couldn't best any one the council because he was Sidious's apprentice (same rank as Maul) and never the DLOTS.

Dooku was stronger in the force and was a more experienced warrior, at the age of Maul they might of been on parr. Dooku was a sith padawan and a MASTER jedi

Originally posted by Higilo
Dooku was stronger in the force and was a more experienced warrior, at the age of Maul they might of been on parr. Dooku was a sith padawan and a MASTER jedi
*Sighs* You missed the point-rank means nothing here. Anakin was a "mere" jedi knight yet he killed Dooku (sith lord/apprentice/former jedi master) despite having less force mastery. Maul like Dooku were sith apprentices who both had training in the jedi arts. (Yes, Sidious did teach Maul jedi techniques as a padawan.)

Maul killed two jedi masters, one of which should have been on the council the other was the battle master prior to Cin whose lightsaber skill was described as "second to none" Rank doesn't give Obiwan the victory and it certainly doesn't mean that any council member from TPM-ROTS could beat him simply because they are jedi masters.

I understand that ranks in the sith mean nothing, due to the rule of two, but all i was saying is that Obi Wan is more experienced in ROTS and would defeat Maul legitimately due to his gained intelligence in both the force and with his skills in dueling. Maul was good, but only beat Qui Gon because they were in a confined space, which puts Qui Gon at a disadvantage.

Originally posted by Higilo
I understand that ranks in the sith mean nothing, due to the rule of two, but all i was saying is that Obi Wan is more experienced in ROTS and would defeat Maul legitimately due to his gained intelligence in both the force and with his skills in dueling.


....You never said that at all in your first post, which only suggests that you were basing your decision on rank alone. I agree that Obiwan wins (with difficulty) but you need to do a better job of clarifying your position.


The novel/Qui-gon's thoughts say that Maul led the jedi to that particular area and was the one directing the fight. And this doesn't excuse Maul making Bondara realize that he couldn't beat Maul but that's a different discussion.

Understood, but if you agreed with my position on Obi Wan's victory, why make such a fuss on my evidence backing my point, when we both agree on the same conclusion, unless you were trying to educate me, in which case i appreciate your efforts.

Originally posted by Higilo
In the TPM any one of the council members could of beaten Maul, and i believe that is the same case in ROTS

Really? Based on what evidence? Support your claim.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Really? Based on what evidence? Support your claim.

Qui Gon, a candidate for the council, was defeated by Maul, because Maul manipulated the environment, and because it was PIS. Therefore if in the right situation any of them could of won, in my opinion. Plus i also believe ROTS council was slightly stronger than TPM.

Originally posted by Higilo
Qui Gon, a candidate for the council, was defeated by Maul, because Maul manipulated the environment, and because it was PIS. Therefore if in the right situation any of them could of won, in my opinion.
Anoon Bondara couldn't defeat Maul, he knew he couldn't win and plunged his blade into a speeder bike to try and finish Maul.

Hell Bondara's apprentice lasted longer. Who was a padawan at the same time as Obi Wan Pre TPM.

You'll read that in the novel Shadowhunter. So that's one Master who couldn't beat Maul.

I should not generalise, but my point still stands, and although we all have different paths on this topic our location is the same

Originally posted by Higilo
Qui Gon, a candidate for the council, was defeated by Maul, because Maul manipulated the environment, and because it was PIS. Therefore if in the right situation any of them could of won, in my opinion. Plus i also believe ROTS council was slightly stronger than TPM.

Thats total rubbish. Qui-Gon had enough open space on tatooine, and how did that end? With Qui-Gon running away for his life and completely exhausted after only a short fight.

And contrary to common beleif Qui-Gon was a very formidable jedi. Thats why the Council probably assumed that QuiGon + his formidable apprentice would be more than a match for the mysterious dark warrior.

Im quite surprised everyones voted for Obiwan. And I dnt think anyones given a reason WHY he wins, or countered what Obiwan has against all Maul's different skills/abilites and physical conditioning.

So I still say Maul wins, however I do beleive it would be an awsome fight either way.

Yeah Qui-Gon Jinn has some pretty amazing accolades; his Jedi Weapons Master claimed that he was the most gifted student he had trained in over 400 years of teaching the Jedi Order, he was considered "a master duelist by anyone's standards," and Anoon Bondara, most technically skilled swordsman of the entire Order, doubted his own ability after having sparred with Mace Windu and Qui-Gon Jinn.

Obi Wan was able to beat Anakin (albiet using his wits, but the two were still evenly matched for most of the duel) who beat DOOKU. And many people claim that Dooku could beat Mace (which isn't true, but it still says something that people think that it is), whereas almost NOONE claims that Maul could beat Mace... *waits for Nemesis/Lucien/etc. to jump on that and say that it's an ABC argument which automatically makes it null*

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Obi Wan was able to beat Anakin (albiet using his wits, but the two were still evenly matched for most of the duel) who beat DOOKU. And many people claim that Dooku could beat Mace (which isn't true, but it still says something that people think that it is), whereas almost NOONE claims that Maul could beat Mace... *waits for Nemesis/Lucien/etc. to jump on that and say that it's an ABC argument which automatically makes it null*

Because it is an ABC argument. You're not even factoring that Maul and Dooku fight different type of battles. Dooku may try to use the force before Mace fully submerges into Vapaad which could spell defeat for Mace but Maul hasn't really shown to use the force offensively, only on himself. That type of information is why we avoid abc arguments.

Sorry for the double post.
Originally posted by Higilo
I should not generalise, but my point still stands, and although we all have different paths on this topic our location is the same

It doesn't matter if we end at the same point, the information must be right. TPM novel has Qui-gon recognizing that Maul was controlling the fight while he backing them up into an area that hurts Ataru users. That doesn't discredit Maul's defeat at Qui-gon at all. Also, simply saying that the ROTS council>TPM council doesn't mean that Maul couldn't kill anyone on it.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Stass_Allie

Taker her for example, I would love to see proof that she could beat Maul. yet she was on the ROTS council....

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Because it is an ABC argument. You're not even factoring that Maul and Dooku fight different type of battles. Dooku may try to use the force before Mace fully submerges into Vapaad which could spell defeat for Mace but Maul hasn't really shown to use the force offensively, only on himself. That type of information is why we avoid abc arguments.

WHAT??? What makes you think that Maul doesn't tend to use the force offensively? He force pushed Obi Wan off the ledge? So sure, he didn't perform a bunch of fancy/strong attacks, but that's because in all of the movies he only fought for less than half an hour...you never see Padme sleeping with Anakin so surely Luke is born of a virgin mother!!!!

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
WHAT??? What makes you think that Maul doesn't tend to use the force offensively? He force pushed Obi Wan off the ledge? So sure, he didn't perform a bunch of fancy/strong attacks, but that's because in all of the movies he only fought for less than half an hour...you never see Padme sleeping with Anakin so surely Luke is born of a virgin mother!!!!
Tbf thats the same as Shmi, she could be a Virgin when she gave birth to Anakin. Minus the canon ofcourse.

ANAKIN IS JESUS!!!one!1!1!1!

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
WHAT??? What makes you think that Maul doesn't tend to use the force offensively? He force pushed Obi Wan off the ledge?

One example of using the force offensively (especially given then the room in which the duel takes place) doesn't mean he commonly uses the force offensively in other duels. It's been a while since I read Shadow Hunter or any other material with Maul in it, but from what I recall I don't remember him using the force offensively in any way other to augment his abilities.



There's a reason why the vs forum is located in the EU FORUM.

I'm going with Kenobi because of his duel with Grievous...now, before accusations, i'm not going to go into A<B<C>A but it might be mistaken for such...

Kenobi was able to see straight through Grievous' attack with four lightsabers, he defended against 2 lightsabers while clashing with another 2...

Whereas, Mauls lightsaber is dual bladed, it counts as one blade at a time in quick succession. Given such, Kenobi would defend either end of the saber and overcome Maul eventually...as for Mauls speed, it would simply hinder Kenobi.

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
I'm going with Kenobi because of his duel with Grievous...now, before accusations, i'm not going to go into A<B<C>A but it might be mistaken for such...

Kenobi was able to see straight through Grievous' attack with four lightsabers, he defended against 2 lightsabers while clashing with another 2...

Whereas, Mauls lightsaber is dual bladed, it counts as one blade at a time in quick succession. Given such, Kenobi would defend either end of the saber and overcome Maul eventually...as for Mauls speed, it would simply hinder Kenobi.

The main difference is that Grievous isn't a Force user on Maul's level. But the multiple attack angles and Kenobi's defense has got to count for something. Obi-Wan's main problem is that he can't overcome a saber user with superior skill; he has to wait for an exploit. I can't see Maul being cautious in a one-on-one.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
The main difference is that Grievous isn't a Force user on Maul's level. But the multiple attack angles and Kenobi's defense has got to count for something. Obi-Wan's main problem is that he can't overcome a saber user with superior skill; he has to wait for an exploit. I can't see Maul being cautious in a one-on-one.

Yes! Maul didn't really use the force in TPM apart from to force push Kenobi into the hole. I don't have any reason he'd need to use it until/unless he was, once again, planning the duel down to the last minute...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
The main difference is that Grievous isn't a Force user on Maul's level. But the multiple attack angles and Kenobi's defense has got to count for something. Obi-Wan's main problem is that he can't overcome a saber user with superior skill; he has to wait for an exploit. I can't see Maul being cautious in a one-on-one.

Maul isn't superior to Obi Wan in skill, or at least there isn't any proof of that...

RotS Obi-Wan has never been directly stacked against Maul in canon material. It's up to people who make assertions (Read: bold, possibly unsupported claims) to back up their reasoning and make this argument work.