Mace v Anakin

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Shoes
Done before, but no consensus.

GO

Also Mace doesn't get shatterpoint.

Also ROTS Anakin.

Darth Martin
Mace.

He wins easier if Anakin has already fallen to the dark side.

Q99
Mace. Anakin had the potential to get stronger but he wasn't there yet.

Shoes
Thing is, Anakin keeps getting stronger.

Mace keeps matching his strength.

No shatterpoint.

How does this go down?

Darth Martin
Mace defeated Sidious in a duel. Anakin isn't on par with either. He's great though.

Ms.Marvel
if mace wins its by the skin of his teeth. despite winning against sideous due to shatterpoint and vapaad, neither of which is available to him here, hes considered to be around dooku level... anakin is above and beyond that tier in terms of bladework...

Shoes
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
vapaad

When did I say it wasn't? Shatterpoint is the only restriction, to even things up.

Darth Martin
Why wouldn't Mace have access to Vapaad? It's his form.

Ms.Marvel
because anakin doesnt give off an evil dark side aura that mace can use to strengthen himself and weaken anakin with, so the super natural effects of vapaad are useless here.

unless youre referring to dark side rots anakin. *shrug* anakin versus dooky anakin could take a majority though imo

Shoes
I thought it was common knowledge that ROTS Anakin = dark side.

Darth Martin
He gives off energy. That's how he defeated Dooku. He just unleashes pure hate once he becomes Sith.

I don't see Anakin on top tier level along with Yoda, Sidious, Mace.

Ms.Marvel
he wasnt utilizing the dark side against dooku im pretty sure until the very end, definitely not in the ssame vain as when he was using it against obi-wan

truejedi
Mace wipes the floor with him.

Amazing Vrayo!!
This one is interesting because if Anakin is in his weaker lightside form, Mace is also weaker because he would not be fighting a dark jedi, but if Anakin is in his stronger darkside form, Mace would be able to use vapaad, and would also be stronger. Either way, even with Anakin's high midichlorian count etc. etc. I still feel like Mace just has way too much experience for Anakin to take the win here.

Ms.Marvel
could you extrapolate on experience? dooku got demolished.

BruceSkywalker
like anakin, but master windu for the victory

Lord Lucien
Shatterpoint doesn't give Mace automatic wins. In our hypothetical matches, we offer no variables for Shatterpoint to pinpoint.


But he still has Vaapad.

And it really does matter what Anakin this is. There are three version of Anakin as of RotS: "tEh Z0ne" Anakin, Light Side Anakin, and Vader.

Zone Anakin I think would win 6/10 times, roughly. He has such lucidity, such strength, without succumbing to the full effects of the Dark Side. Vaapad won't be nearly as useful here as was against Palaptine.

Light Anakin is dead, no question about it.

Vader is too, but his sheer ferocity would drag the match out longer than Light Anakin. Vaapad FTW.

Q99
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
if mace wins its by the skin of his teeth. despite winning against sideous due to shatterpoint and vapaad, neither of which is available to him here, hes considered to be around dooku level... anakin is above and beyond that tier in terms of bladework...

Mace is above Dooku level.

There's Yoda/Sidious/Mace level

Then there's Obi-Wan/Dooku level. Anakin is closer to that level.

Lord Lucien
...

Dooku is NOT on the same tier as Obi-Wan.

Q99
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
...

Dooku is NOT on the same tier as Obi-Wan.

Lower?

Dooku lost to Anakin, Obi-Wan beat Anakin...



In any case, not the same tier as Mace.

Ms.Marvel
your fallacious logic gives me strength, but also brings tears

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Q99
Lower?

Dooku lost to Anakin, Obi-Wan beat Anakin...



In any case, not the same tier as Mace. Dooku was winning against Light Anakin, and he whooped Obi-Wan. Then Dooku lost to Zone Anakin. Obi-Wan lost to Vader.

See the differences? Either way Dooku>>>Obi-Wan.

Q99
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Dooku was winning against Light Anakin, and he whooped Obi-Wan. Then Dooku lost to Zone Anakin. Obi-Wan lost to Vader.

See the differences? Either way Dooku>>>Obi-Wan.

Obi-wan won, last time I checked.

They don't seem to be entirely different tiers at the least.


And I don't think this "Zone" Anakin is any stronger than Vader.

mattatom
Originally posted by Q99
Obi-wan won, last time I checked.

They don't seem to be entirely different tiers at the least.


And I don't think this "Zone" Anakin is any stronger than Vader.

"Zone" Anakin will always be stronger than Vader because he's not fully DS (against Mace this is the deciding factor) and he's not overconfident (Mustafar).

Q99
Originally posted by mattatom
"Zone" Anakin will always be stronger than Vader because he's not fully DS (against Mace this is the deciding factor) and he's not overconfident (Mustafar).

He's also not drawing on as much darkside. Also... is he really not fully darkside/not overconfident? We're talking, pretty much, one fight, during which he did brag about his power.

He might be better against Mace if he's not drawing on as much, but why is he stronger?


And that aside, what is there to put Dooku on Mace's level at all?

Darth Martin
Originally posted by Q99
Lower?

Dooku lost to Anakin, Obi-Wan beat Anakin...



In any case, not the same tier as Mace. ABC logic.

IMO Overall:

Tyranus>Anakin>/=Kenobi

When you have a fight go 7/10. You lose 3 times. ROTS displayed one of those losses for Tyranus.

He's more skilled with a blade and much more refined in the force.

Q99
Originally posted by Darth Martin
ABC logic.

I'm not saying that Obi-Wan is stronger than Dooku because of that or anything. What I am saying is they're close enough for ABC of different styles to matter- i.e. not in the same tier as Palpatine and Yoda.

Anakin, Dooku, and Obi-Wan have their advantages and disadvantages compared to each other, as I see it, and Palpatine or Yoda or Mace would beat any of them.



Why Tyranus over Anakin at all, though? I don't know of anything to put him over Anakin, or to think he'd win the majority.

He may be refined, but Anakin had more power he could handle by RotS. It wasn't a lucky shot or anything, he was just overpowered.

I mean, am I missing some showings of his? I can't think of what'd put him on a level with Mace.

truejedi
Actually, Kenobi beat Anakin... It was kinda a big deal.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Q99
Obi-wan won, last time I checked.

Did Obiwan outduel Anakin?? No. In fact Obiwan was tiring, whilst Anakin was getting stronger. If not for Anakin's clumsiness theres no way Obiwan was gna win.

Originally posted by Q99
They don't seem to be entirely different tiers at the least.

They(Obiwan and Anakin) dnt "seem" like they are in entirely different tiers because they know each others moves inside out, so can not get past each other's defences.


Originally posted by Q99
And I don't think this "Zone" Anakin is any stronger than Vader.

"Zone" Anakin was as strong as DS Anakin, but was much less conflicted, less arrogant, less clumsy, and overall had much more control.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by truejedi
Actually, Kenobi beat Anakin... It was kinda a big deal.

Kenobi beat someone he trained(and that while Anakin was deeply conflicted emotionally). Doesnt make him a more powerful jedi or a more skilled warrior.

truejedi
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Did Obiwan outduel Anakin?? No. In fact Obiwan was tiring, whilst Anakin was getting stronger. If not for Anakin's clumsiness theres no way Obiwan was gna win.


ROTS novelization begs to differ. Kenobi controlled the duel. (I've given the quotes on this duel 1/2 dozen times, if you care enough, look it up yourself, or search for it any number of threads here.)




This is exactly true.

truejedi
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kenobi beat someone he trained(and that while Anakin was deeply conflicted emotionally). Doesnt make him a more powerful jedi or a more skilled warrior.

You are just all full of straw-men today, aren't you? What does this have to do with my point that Kenobi won? I didn't imply any of the things you have listed. Someone listed earlier that Anakin won, i countered with the obvious truth. What is YOUR post based on?

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by truejedi
ROTS novelization begs to differ. Kenobi controlled the duel.

he controlled the duel in that he was constantly on the defensive and backpedaling until a situation that favored him would arise; thats the nature of soresu in itself though.

he wasnt controlling the fight in the sense that he could have ended whenever he wanted, though. his bladework isnt superior to anakins

ares834
Originally posted by Q99
Mace is above Dooku level.

There's Yoda/Sidious/Mace level

Then there's Obi-Wan/Dooku level. Anakin is closer to that level.
No... Mace is not on Yoda/Sidious level. Mace and Dooku were stated to be equal swordsmen in Y: DR... And Dooku is beyond Kenobi.

truejedi
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel


he wasnt controlling the fight in the sense that he could have ended whenever he wanted, though. his bladework isnt superior to anakins

Did I say this? Kenobi chose where they would fight. The bladework itself was identical to Anakin's. (also a direct quote from ROTS)

Galan007
It's my opinion that you could have stuck pretty much anyone in front of "the zone" Anakin, and he would have beat them -- embarrassing Dooku in a duel is no small feat.

So imo, the above 'version' of Anakin would beat Mace. Any other 'versions' would lose *thanks Vapaad*

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by truejedi
You are just all full of straw-men today, aren't you? What does this have to do with my point that Kenobi won? I didn't imply any of the things you have listed. Someone listed earlier that Anakin won, i countered with the obvious truth. What is YOUR post based on?


Well you seemed like you were implying that because Kenobi won he is better, or in the same league as Anakin. If thats not what you meant, then ignore what I said.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by truejedi
ROTS novelization begs to differ. Kenobi controlled the duel. (I've given the quotes on this duel 1/2 dozen times, if you care enough, look it up yourself, or search for it any number of threads here.)


Iv got the novel. And according to the novel they were fighting like "two halves of the same warrior" because they knew each other's moves so well.

So when fighting each other they are quite equally matched. However that doesnt mean they ARE equally powerful or skilled Jedi. Thats my point.

Oh and the Movie showed Kenobi Panting like mad towards the end of the fight, so if Kenobi wasnt able to outsmart Anakin, then yeah he would have lost, due to Anakin simply having much better stamina due to his seemingly limitless supply of Force Reserves.

Q99
No... Mace is not on Yoda/Sidious level. Mace and Dooku were stated to be equal swordsmen in Y: DR... And Dooku is beyond Kenobi.


Y: DR?

It's just I've never seen Dooku do anything to put him in Mace's league. Mace was a younger, stronger duelist who also looked like he was better with the force to me.


Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
he controlled the duel in that he was constantly on the defensive and backpedaling until a situation that favored him would arise; thats the nature of soresu in itself though.

he wasnt controlling the fight in the sense that he could have ended whenever he wanted, though. his bladework isnt superior to anakins

But that's how he always fights- that's how he beat Grievous too, stay on the defensive until there's an opening. It took a lot longer with Anakin but it went exactly as planned.

Obi-Wan is the defensive specialist of the duelists in the order. Anakin, a much more offensive type, couldn't get though.

Galan007
Originally posted by ares834
No... Mace is not on Yoda/Sidious level. Mace and Dooku were stated to be equal swordsmen in Y: DR... And Dooku is beyond Kenobi. In the novelization, once Mace fully gave himself over to Vapaad, the fight between he and Sidious became "effortless"

Meh, I don't know what the general consensus is, but what I took from the novel is that Mace /w/ full Vapaad-immersion = Sidious. Mace /w/ full Vapaad-immersion, AND Shatterpoint > Sidious.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Q99


Y: DR?

It's just I've never seen Dooku do anything to put him in Mace's league. Mace was a younger, stronger duelist who also looked like he was better with the force to me.

Really? Youve seen nothing from Dooku puting him in Mace's league?? How about putting up a decent fight against Yoda?? In the force and in sabers.

Or how about disposing of Obiwan with a simple flick off his wrist while simultaneously kicking lightsaide anakin on to his ass. That was no where near Mace's league in fighting skills or in the Force??



Originally posted by Q99
But that's how he always fights- that's how he beat Grievous too, stay on the defensive until there's an opening. It took a lot longer with Anakin but it went exactly as planned.
Obi-Wan is the defensive specialist of the duelists in the order. Anakin, a much more offensive type, couldn't get though.

He didnt outduel Anakin. He outsmarted him. And that was an Anakin who wasnt exactly in his best mental state. As far as the duel was going, Anakin could have carried on fighting all day, but Obiwan was getting tired.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Galan007
In the novelization, once Mace fully gave himself over to Vapaad, the fight between he and Sidious became "effortless"

Meh, I don't know what the general consensus is, but what I took from the novel is that Mace /w/ full Vapaad-immersion = Sidious. Mace /w/ full Vapaad-immersion, AND Shatterpoint > Sidious.

Actually they were equal when Mace was immersed in Vapaad. But Mace won based on experience, not shatterpoint. Shatterpoint's no guarantee of victory in a saber fight. Never was.

And Vappad created a superconducting loop between Mace and Sidious, allowing Mace to match Sidious in speed and power. So Mace wuldnt be that fast or powerful while fighting anyone else.

Galan007
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually they were equal when Mace was immersed in Vapaad. But Mace won based on experience, not shatterpoint. Shatterpoint's no guarantee of victory in a saber fight. Never was. Granted, but it does allow for weakness exploitation. And after all, Mace did angle the entire battle so that it would eventually end up on the window ledge. Doing so made Sidious have to use his powers to maintain sturdy footing, rather than use them offensively against Mace (which could be viewed as Shatterpoint.) Mace then 'fed' upon the hesitation/fear Sidious was producing in this moment, and used it against him -- effectively winning the battle (obviously Vapaad.)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And Vappad created a superconducting loop between Mace and Sidious, allowing Mace to match Sidious in speed and power. So Mace wuldnt be that fast or powerful while fighting anyone else. If Mace could use Vapaad to feed on Sidious' fear/hesitation, he could certainly use it to feed on Anakin's fear/hesitation (which is abundant.)

Q99
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really? Youve seen nothing from Dooku puting him in Mace's league?? How about putting up a decent fight against Yoda?? In the force and in sabers.

He... really struck me as just holding off Yoda until he could escape, but standing no real chance, Yoda was not pushed very hard. Compare Mace and Palpy's fight.


So no, I don't see how that's in the same league at all.

I don't think there's a single fight he's been in that Mace couldn't have done a noticeably better in.

truejedi
Yeah, Dooku fought two battles against Yoda that went badly for him. This does not put him on Yoda's level.

However, Mace beat sidious with sabers, so that DOES put him on Sidious's level. Since Yoda and Sidious are often presumed to be more or less equals as of ROTS, then it would put Mace above Dooku.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Q99
He... really struck me as just holding off Yoda until he could escape, but standing no real chance, Yoda was not pushed very hard.

Yeah I admit he had no chance of defeating Yoda, and he was just holding him off until he could escape, but that in itself is a huge accomplishment. Yoda IS the "MOST Devastatingly Powerful Foe the Darkness has Ever faced" (ROTS novel).

The Vast Majority of Jedis/Dark Jedis cant even last 1 second against Yoda, e.g. Ventress who was just completely paralyzed by Yoda. And Yoda gave as good as he got against the Emporer who can take out some of the best Jedis in a Saber fight in literally a second.

So you think Mace would fair much better than Dooku did against Yoda?? I dnt see that happening.


Originally posted by Q99
Compare Mace and Palpy's fight

Big difference is Vapaad's superconducting loop, which helped Mace to equal Sidious in Speed and Power. He wnt be THAT Fast or THAT Powerful while fighting Anakin or Dooku, or anyone else for that matter.

Before being fully submerged into Vapaad Sidious had Mace backing off, quite fast, and had him fully on the defence.
Dooku held Yoda off till he could escape, whilst Mace held Sidious off till he could fully submerge into Vapaad. So yeah I do see them in the same league. Now im not saying Dooku would beat Mace in a fight. Because theres a strong possibility that Vapaad's superconducting loop would cause Dooku serious problems being a DarkSider himself.

However in terms of Saber skills, Power and Mastery of the Force... Yes I definetely do see Dooku in Mace's league.
Iv never seen Mace own the likes of Ventress, Bulq, Vos or Obiwan, or anyone similarly powerful with the Force like Dooku has on many many occasions.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Galan007
Granted, but it does allow for weakness exploitation. And after all, Mace did angle the entire battle so that it would eventually end up on the window ledge. Doing so made Sidious have to use his powers to maintain sturdy footing, rather than use them offensively against Mace (which could be viewed as Shatterpoint.)

Yeah he did do that. But it seemed to be experience, not shatterpoint. Sidious's shatterpoint was Anakin. He completely trusted Anakin, so if Anakin chose Mace's side over Sidious's then Sidious would be dead. Thats a major weakness and interestingly enough it was that weakness that did lead to his death.


Originally posted by Galan007
If Mace could use Vapaad to feed on Sidious' fear/hesitation, he could certainly use it to feed on Anakin's fear/hesitation (which is abundant.)

Im not sure if Vapaad's loop would work on Pre-Sith Anakin. But im staying out of the Mace vs. Anakin debate after the last thread on it. Im just commenting on why Dooku shuldnt be discounted as being in Mace's league just because Dooku culdnt defeat Sidious.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah he did do that. But it seemed to be experience, not shatterpoint. Sidious's shatterpoint was Anakin. He completely trusted Anakin, so if Anakin chose Mace's side over Sidious's then Sidious would be dead. Thats a major weakness and interestingly enough it was that weakness that did lead to his death.




Im not sure if Vapaad's loop would work on Pre-Sith Anakin. But im staying out of the Mace vs. Anakin debate after the last thread on it. Im just commenting on why Dooku shuldnt be discounted as being in Mace's league just because Dooku culdnt defeat Sidious.

Vaapad isn't fueled solely on the basis of the opposition's anger/hatred/rage. Remember that Mace's own inner darkness provides a hell of a boost as well. Also, keep in mind that Mace Grievous mimicked the movements of Vaapad after dueling Mace (hence; Mace used Vaapad against a non force user). Vaapad will be a factor against any version of Anakin, be it LS, DS, or t3h zoNE Anakin.

Galan007
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah he did do that. But it seemed to be experience, not shatterpoint. Sidious's shatterpoint was Anakin. He completely trusted Anakin, so if Anakin chose Mace's side over Sidious's then Sidious would be dead. Thats a major weakness and interestingly enough it was that weakness that did lead to his death. I understand full well that Anakin was Sidious' 'main' Shatterpoint - but he was still only one of several Shatterpoints Mace sensed. Regardless, this is the quote that made me think the window-ledge-scene lent more to Shatterpoint than Vapaad:

" angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Im just commenting on why Dooku shuldnt be discounted as being in Mace's league just because Dooku culdnt defeat Sidious. I personally feel that Mace is the superior swordsman by a fair margin, but that's just me.

ares834
Originally posted by truejedi
However, Mace beat sidious with sabers, so that DOES put him on Sidious's level. Since Yoda and Sidious are often presumed to be more or less equals as of ROTS, then it would put Mace above Dooku.
No it doesn't. Just because Mace beat Sidious does not mean he is Sidious's equal. If this was the case Padawan Obi was Maul's level. He beat Sidious due to Vaapad's loop.


Then your wrong as Y: DR specifically says the were equals. This does not mean Mace can't beat Dooku, he would for sure, but that would be due to the benefits of Vaapad.

Galan007
Originally posted by ares834
Then your wrong as Y: DR specifically says the were equals. This does not mean Mace can't beat Dooku, he would for sure, but that would be due to the benefits of Vaapad. If you're admitting that Mace would beat Dooku, then how can you also be of the opinion that they are equals?

So confused.

truejedi
Vapaad is Mace's style. Saying he would beat Dooku with Vapaad is exactly the same as saying he is better than Dooku. Its like saying that Anakin is better than Kenobi if Kenobi can't use Soresu.

ares834
Originally posted by Galan007
If you're admitting that Mace would beat Dooku, then how can you also be of the opinion that they are equals?

So confused.
There is more factors in a fight than simply skill. Such things include CIS, PIS, environment factors, and weaknesses.

And here is the thing Mace and Dooku are equal in skill, yet Mace Windu has an advantage due to his form being "Super effective" (lol Pokemanz) against Dooku. We see examples like this in real life, Cobra's for example are far more dangerous and deadly than a mongoose, yet a mongoose can kill a Cobra as it is well suited to klling it. This is similar to Dooku and Mace. Both are equals, yet Mace can beat Dooku because his form allows him to channel Dooku's darkness as well as his, this it is well suited for battling Dooku.

Originally posted by truejedi
Vapaad is Mace's style. Saying he would beat Dooku with Vapaad is exactly the same as saying he is better than Dooku. Its like saying that Anakin is better than Kenobi if Kenobi can't use Soresu.
No its not. An inferior being can beat an opponent if he is well suited for it.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Mace > Anakin. That should be as clear as day. Even "In the Zone" Anakin would still lose imo

Galan007
Originally posted by ares834
And here is the thing Mace and Dooku are equal in skill, yet Mace Windu has an advantage due to his form being "Super effective" (lol Pokemanz) against Dooku. We see examples like this in real life, Cobra's for example are far more dangerous and deadly than a mongoose, yet a mongoose can kill a Cobra as it is well suited to klling it. This is similar to Dooku and Mace. Both are equals, yet Mace can beat Dooku because his form allows him to channel Dooku's darkness as well as his, this it is well suited for battling Dooku. If one of them is superior to the other in battle, then they are not equals. Simple.

ares834
Originally posted by Galan007
If one of them is superior to the other in battle, then they are not equals. Simple.
roll eyes (sarcastic) If you want to go with that than Mace can't beat Dooku... Its a tie.

Galan007
Originally posted by ares834
roll eyes (sarcastic) If you want to go with that than Mace can't beat Dooku... Its a tie. But you've already admitted that Mace would trounce Dooku...

You're a hard guy to follow.

truejedi
If Mace > Sidious with Sabers, he is by all accounts also going to be able to handle Dooku, who could only marvel at the power of the Sith Lord in Dark Rendevous.

Juk3n
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How about putting up a decent fight against Yoda?? In the force

Yoda clearly doesn't return fire in that instacne, it's quite obvious he was gauging Dookus power level, and let go the appropriate power to fizzle away Dookus - quite frankly - lame attemp at battling Yoda.

movie verse ofcourse.

truejedi
I didn't see Dooku put up a decent fight against Yoda in the force, Yoda was casually dismissing everything Dooku threw at him.

Darth Martin
Originally posted by Q99
1.Anakin, Dooku, and Obi-Wan have their advantages and disadvantages compared to each other, as I see it, and Palpatine or Yoda or Mace would beat any of them.
2.Why Tyranus over Anakin at all, though? I don't know of anything to put him over Anakin, or to think he'd win the majority. He may be refined, but Anakin had more power he could handle by RotS. It wasn't a lucky shot or anything, he was just overpowered.
3.I mean, am I missing some showings of his? I can't think of what'd put him on a level with Mace.

1.I do think Yoda, Palpatine, and Mace would take a majority against any of those 3. But, you can't group Tyranus with Kenobi. He's far superior to him.
2.In a 7/10 system you lose 3 matches. I believe Tyranus would be favored and what was seen onscreen accounted for one of those losses. Tyranus is alot more refined with a blade and is much superior in Force mastery. Define power? Somne argue Anakin's strikes were to strong for him because of Djem So. Kinda shaky argument when Tyranus spars with the onslaught that is Grievous.

IMO it was a combination of confusion with Sidious and Anakin's explosion? Let Tyranus face off with no Sidious or Kenobi there from the start and my money is on the Sith Lord. I know I'm in the minority in this argument so I expect a bunch of negative feedback.
3.What would put who on Mace's level?

Galan007
Originally posted by truejedi
I didn't see Dooku put up a decent fight against Yoda in the force, Yoda was casually dismissing everything Dooku threw at him. thumb up

From the Force to sabers, Yoda controlled the entire battle.

Darth Martin
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
1.So you think Mace would fair much better than Dooku did against Yoda??
2.However in terms of Saber skills, Power and Mastery of the Force... Yes I definetely do see Dooku in Mace's league.
3.Iv never seen Mace own the likes of Ventress, Bulq, Vos or Obiwan, or anyone similarly powerful with the Force like Dooku has on many many occasions.

1.Yes. I do think Mace would have lasted longer against Yoda seeing how I don't see him running away. Would he win? No. But he would last longer than Tyranus would as he's superior. Tyranus would never attempt combat in any form with Sidious, whatsoever.
2.Agreed. Tyranus is very much in Mace's league when it comes to lightsaber skill. Mace has a few x-factors in Vapaad and Shatterpoint.
3.I'm pretty sure he easily defeated Depa. He easily beat Grievous before his injury. Ventress? Mace would beat her too. Tyranus is a Sith. He's going to fight Jedi. Seeing as there are only two Sith(3 if you count
Ventress) and I don't see Mace fighting his own kind......

He would later go on to defeat the most powerful Dark Side wielder of the era in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Vaapad isn't fueled solely on the basis of the opposition's anger/hatred/rage. Remember that Mace's own inner darkness provides a hell of a boost as well. Vaapad will be a factor against any version of Anakin, be it LS, DS, or t3h zoNE Anakin. Great point. There's seems to be recurring misconception that Vapaad is only useful when Mace is combating a dark side wielder. It is only MOST effective. Mace having all of the inner darkness, it would be effective against anyone.

Originally posted by Galan007
I personally feel that Mace is the superior swordsman by a fair margin, but that's just me. What makes you say this?

Galan007
Originally posted by Darth Martin
What makes you say this? Vapaad, Shatterpoint, raw power, etc.

Darth Martin
Oh, well if you mean that then, yeah, I agree. But as far as actual technique and skill, I don't think Mace is on a completely different level.

Tyranus was tooling Grievous.

truejedi
Vapaad IS Mace's form. Its not an additional skill to his lightsaber ability. When you speak of Vapaad, you are speaking about his ability with a lightsaber.

Darth Martin
It also gives him advantages in combat that other forms don't. Makashi can't form any kind of superconducting loop, can it?

ares834
Lol. It doesn't matter if it IS his form or not. The fact is that it gives him an advantage against Dooku so he could beat him, just like rock can beat paper. Y: DR is clear, Mace and Dooku are equals when it comes to skills with the saber. Argue with it all you want, but you would be arguing against canon.

Galan007
Originally posted by Darth Martin
Oh, well if you mean that then, yeah, I agree. But as far as actual technique and skill, I don't think Mace is on a completely different level.

Tyranus was tooling Grievous. Granted both Mace and Dooku were masters of their respective forms, but imo Vapaad is always going to have the advantage against Makashi in a one on one setting. Remember, Makashi's major weakness is that it does not produce enough kinetic force to counter (thus leaving it's user vulnerable to) techniques that utilize more power and brute force (such as Vapaad.) In the novelization, this was even cited as one of the main factors that led to Dooku's defeat at the hands of Anakin.

Darth Martin
Equals or not, Tyranus would never attempt to fight Sidious.

ares834
My post was directed to TrueJedi, but you are correct. Nor would he fare as well since he lacks Vaapad.

truejedi
Originally posted by ares834
Lol. It doesn't matter if it IS his form or not. The fact is that it gives him an advantage against Dooku so he could beat him, just like rock can beat paper. Y: DR is clear, Mace and Dooku are equals when it comes to skills with the saber. Argue with it all you want, but you would be arguing against canon.

Unfortunately the quote you are using comes directly from Dooku's thoughts. The same dooku that declared himself more powerful than Yoda on Geonossis.

His ego has gotten in the way of his better judgement.

Besides that, he has also not fought or sparred with Mace in many years. He is in no position to know what Mace is capable of at this stage in the game.

ares834

truejedi
touche.

Well, I will take another tact. (oh, btw before I do, i think its funny that Dooku is still thinking he was going to beat Yoda. He was really a bit of an egotist.)

My second tact is this:

"Perhaps only Mace windu would have been his equal" doesn't necessarily mean mace would have merely been his equal. Just that among the Jedi, only Mace could have been. Perhaps mace, on equal ground, would have been more than equal to Dooku. (That word PERHAPS helps me a lot.)

Q99
Originally posted by Darth Martin
1.I do think Yoda, Palpatine, and Mace would take a majority against any of those 3. But, you can't group Tyranus with Kenobi. He's far superior to him.

I think they're quite noticeably above him and that'd be a very very significant majority.

Dooku's somewhat higher than Kenobi, sure, but that doesn't put him on their level.

I think part of why he did well against Obi-Wan is his style is well-suited to slipping past Kenobi's defense, but similarly he suffered a major disadvantage against Anakin, who beat him pretty darn badly. Sure, maybe if Kenobi wasn't there it would've been closer, but it wasn't exactly a down to the wire battle, and it looked to me more like Dooku was the one who got lucky in that fight, managing to do that to Kenobi so soon.




Dooku. What feats does he have to put him in the same level?

Dooku seemed quite clearly inferior to Yoda across the board to me. Mace, not so much, especially in saber work.

Galan007

Darth Martin
Originally posted by Q99
Dooku's somewhat higher than Kenobi, sure, but that doesn't put him on their level. Tyranus is considerably higher than Kenobi. He is closer to "their" level than he is to Obi-Wan's.

Granted, Kenobi is far superior to his AOTC self but that doesn't mean Tyranus' pwning of him in ROTS wasn't justified.

When it comes to these qoutes from books, we should hold more value to the narrative, rather than character's statements. Mace is known to be incredibly humble when it comes to fellow Jedi, saying that Kenobi and Depa are better than him. Anakin probably believed he was the most powerful out of everyone. His statements will reflect that.

ares834
Originally posted by Galan007
I don't think that line alone is enough to say Dooku was incontrovertibly Mace's equal... Especially when quotes like this also exist to counter it:

"Though Yoda's junior by hundreds of years, Mace Windu was considered his equal in terms of ability, insight, and command." - from the Jedi Sourcebook.

From that quote one could gather that Mace = Yoda > Dooku. Feel me?
It says "was considered" which means some people in universe belived this... This does not make it a true statement.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Q99
I think they're quite noticeably above him and that'd be a very very significant majority.

Dooku's somewhat higher than Kenobi, sure, but that doesn't put him on their level.

I think part of why he did well against Obi-Wan is his style is well-suited to slipping past Kenobi's defense, but similarly he suffered a major disadvantage against Anakin, who beat him pretty darn badly. Sure, maybe if Kenobi wasn't there it would've been closer, but it wasn't exactly a down to the wire battle, and it looked to me more like Dooku was the one who got lucky in that fight, managing to do that to Kenobi so soon. Dooku's somewhat higher than Kenobi? What? The master of Sorestu, the defensive style prodigy had his ass handed to him by Dooku. Dooku>>>>Kenobi.

The novelization tells us that after Kenobi was thrown away, Anakin got mad and started winning---a Darker Anakin, drawing on strength. Then Dooku calms him down with some Dun Moch, and Light Anakin returns to losing. Shortly after, Anakin "decided to win" (this is Zone Anakin). He drew on his aggression and determination and focused it right and Dooku. And won. Quite handily(see what I did there!). Zone Anakin is the most powerful and dangerous form of Anakin there is. And without his immersion in to the Dark Side that Sidious or Vader has, Mace's Vaapad isn't going to have the same superconducting effect.




Originally posted by Q99
Dooku. What feats does he have to put him in the same level?

Dooku seemed quite clearly inferior to Yoda across the board to me. Mace, not so much, especially in saber work. And where do you come off saying Mace is "not so much" inferior to Yoda. I'm curious. Don't tote some A>B>C crap like Mace>Dooku and Yoda>Dooku ergo Mace=almost Yoda? Where's the magnitude setting?

Galan007
Originally posted by ares834
It says "was considered" which means some people in universe belived this... This does not make it a true statement. First off, the statement I posted doesn't say "Windu was considered BY MOST" -- it says "Windu was considered equal." That is a blanket term if I've ever seen one. There is no speculation left to be had.

Secondly, the excerpt you posted actually says "perhaps only Mace would have been Dooku's equal." Who are you to criticize validity?

truejedi
its true. perhaps oshaka and kit fisto and Cin drillig and the random chick from Cestus Deception,and Anakin,and Kolar would also have been Dooku's equals, now that we using the word perhaps

truejedi
Also, Dooku didn't beat Kenobi in Sabers in ROTS, he took him out with the force. It wasn't a wtf pwn kinda thing.

ares834
Originally posted by Galan007
First off, the statement I posted doesn't say "Windu was considered BY MOST" -- it says "Windu was considered equal." That is a blanket term if I've ever seen one. There is no speculation left to be had.
Considered does not mean its true. And ability in what? Diplomancy, saber combat, it does not say what.


Read the quote fully. It is clearly implying that Dooku is Mace's equal and that perhaps he was Dooku's only equal.

truejedi
to be fair, considered is just as true as perhaps.

ares834
The way I see it there are three ways of interpreting the Y: DR quote.
1. Mace windu might be Dooku's equal.
2. Dooku might be Windu's equal.
3. Mace Windu is Dooku's equal, and perhaps no other Jedi is.
Personally, I interpret the quote as 3.

Galan007
Originally posted by ares834
Considered does not mean its true. And ability in what? Diplomancy, saber combat, it does not say what. Digging deep.

And keep in mind that I am not trying to use the statement I posted as evidence. It was only a 'tool' used to demonstrate why your Dooku=Mace line of logic is flawed. A single line (and in your case, an inconclusive one at that) doesn't mean much.

Q99
Originally posted by Lord Lucien

And where do you come off saying Mace is "not so much" inferior to Yoda. I'm curious. Don't tote some A>B>C crap like Mace>Dooku and Yoda>Dooku ergo Mace=almost Yoda? Where's the magnitude setting?

Mace was tied or beating someone who tied or beat Yoda.


Yea, I know, Vapaad (Vapaad's advantages against the dark side being why I rate him lower despite doing quite well against Palp's lightning), and yea, I know, 'A-B-C logic,' though I'll note just saying "ABC" doesn't mean we aren't getting useful comparison from the fights. The fights are where we get information to compare them in the first place.


Also, in the Clone Wars (both shows) I've been way more impressed with Mace in general.


Mace has fought with top-tier Sith, Dooku's boss, on even terms. Dooku has fought with top-tier Jedi and was clearly disadvantaged. From this, I get that Mace is most likely a top-tier Jedi himself and that Dooku was most likely not a top-tier Sith.

Though I'll mentioned even though I'm using the duels as examples, that's just because they're easy to bring up. The biggest reason I don't think Dooku is a top-tier force user on their level is because I haven't seen any feats that'd put him there.

Darth Martin
Originally posted by Q99
Also, in the Clone Wars (both shows) I've been way more impressed with Mace in general. In the recent show, what are some of his feats? Who has he fought?

Lord Lucien
It's true, Dooku doesn't have a lot of Force-credentials to his name. But the in-mythos battles don't play out like we make them here. There is no "saber only" fights. And if every duel that Dooku has been in that cemented him as being tier with Mace (before Dooku was a Sith) has been done without any offensive/defensive Force powers... then Dooku and everybody he's ever faced are f*cking retarded.

I'll say this, in case it hasn't been. Dooku (in some source I don't remember) was, as a Jedi Master, the only Jedi besides Yoda able to stymie Mace. Since then, Dooku has increased his power when joining the Sith, and Mace has perfected Vaapad. In any strict, no-holds/variables duel between them, Mace will win with his shatterpoint and Vaapad's advantage over Tyranus.

And we can't be using the TV shows as the lone source of our feats. The cartoon was hideously exaggerated (yet awesome), and as far as I'm aware, the CGI have butchered any sense of feasibility. Not to mention, Sidious isn't exactly popping any caps any b*tches asses on TV and we know him for a fact to be>>>anyone who isn't Yoda or doesn't have Vaapad.

Tyranus was #2 Sith for a reason, and he was top-tier Jedi Master for a reason too. His saber skills (as we nerds all know are runner-up only to Sidious, Mace, Yoda, and Anakin ) beat through the defenses of the greatest defensive swordsman in the galaxy. A couple times. Obi-Wan is f*cking amazing, but he's just not up there with ^ them lot.

Mace ROFLcopter, Vaapad>Tyranus FTW.

Darth Martin
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
1.The cartoon was hideously exaggerated (yet awesome),
2.His saber skills beat through the defenses of the greatest defensive swordsman in the galaxy. A couple times.

1.Which one?
2.When?

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Darth Martin
1.Which one?Both, probably. I've refused to watch the CGI. The cartoon was amazing but the Force powers Jedi used in that were on the scale of the gods.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
2.When? AotC. Granted, Kenobi wasn't the Soresu master yet. Dooku Force-flicked him away in RotS.

Q99
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Both, probably. I've refused to watch the CGI. The cartoon was amazing but the Force powers Jedi used in that were on the scale of the gods.


The CGI is surprisingly good at times, much better than I expected.

It's not over the top in the same way. It's Grievous is closer to movie Grievous, though still with plenty of badass moments, for example.

Also some nice clone episodes.

Lord Lucien
I was disappointed by the animation. Seemed too cornered, and straight-edged. Nothing smooth about it. Toy Story's is superior. The stories are geared towards traditional weekly arcs. Bad guys lose. The likes of Dooku, Grievous, and Ventress go from being f*cking badass in the movies/cartoon to being... you know, cartoonish.

I think it was the lack of dialogue in the cartoon that made it great. Not as many silly moments designed for comic relief. I've seen Jar Jar in the CGI. He was conspicuously absent from the cartoon. Wonder why.

Q99
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I was disappointed by the animation. Seemed too cornered, and straight-edged. Nothing smooth about it. Toy Story's is superior.

True, but weekly TV show budget, and it gets better.



They do get their badass moments. Grievous gets to kill Jedi and all that.

Quality varies a bit. Some episodes are eh, some are pretty good.



He's pretty rare in the CGI, not a regular.

And the CGI does a very important thing that the movies didn't (to me at least): Make Anakin likable as a person. Here's a guy who you can look up to as a hero of the republic and it'd be a great tragedy if he fell, while at the same time showing some of the darkness that'll lead to what happens.

Lord Lucien
Anakin always did lack depth to his character. RotS novelization corrected that.

truejedi
Also: Clone Wars Gambit, Stealth, is correcting that in a big way.

Darth Martin
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
1.Both, probably. I've refused to watch the CGI. The cartoon was amazing but the Force powers Jedi used in that were on the scale of the gods.
2.AotC. Granted, Kenobi wasn't the Soresu master yet. Dooku Force-flicked him away in RotS.
1.I stopped watching the recent one when Ashoka survived against Grievous in lightsaber combat. erm The 2005 carrtoon is great, however.
2.Exactly. Kenobi was nowhere near his ROTS self. Tyranus pwned him with the Force. That's not breaking his lightsaber defense(although, I have no doubt that Tyranus could).

DrunknClockwork
I don't know how people can rate Sidious as one of the best Swordsman in terms of actual skill. As far as I know he has no other feats except killing Tiin, Kolar and Fisto which was really a display of much superior force-power, since they were simply overwhelmed by his speed and not skill. Apart from that he really hasn't beaten anyone (correct me if I'm wrong here) and by RotS hasn't touched a lightsaber for over 10 years.
In his fight with Mace it was once again his superior speed that made it an even fight but once the superconducting loop started to kick in and Mace matched the emperor's speed, "The fighting was effortless for him now" (RotS novel) because it now came down to skill only and Sidious effin' sucked. no expression

In case of Dooku there is no superior speed that could be evened up by vapaad and so it all comes down to actual skill with the lightsaber. Hence, they are equals.

Shoes
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And if every duel that Dooku has been in that cemented him as being tier with Mace (before Dooku was a Sith) has been done without any offensive/defensive Force powers... then Dooku and everybody he's ever faced are f*cking retarded.



Wait, I don't understand. So every fight Dooku has ever been in... was PIS?



Qui-Gon



How so?

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
I don't know how people can rate Sidious as one of the best Swordsman in terms of actual skill. As far as I know he has no other feats except killing Tiin, Kolar and Fisto which was really a display of much superior force-power, since they were simply overwhelmed by his speed and not skill. Apart from that he really hasn't beaten anyone (correct me if I'm wrong here) and by RotS hasn't touched a lightsaber for over 10 years.
In his fight with Mace it was once again his superior speed that made it an even fight but once the superconducting loop started to kick in and Mace matched the emperor's speed, "The fighting was effortless for him now" (RotS novel) because it now came down to skill only and Sidious effin' sucked. no expression

In case of Dooku there is no superior speed that could be evened up by vapaad and so it all comes down to actual skill with the lightsaber. Hence, they are equals.

Reading that wasn't even worth the calorie I burned from moving my eyes across the screen.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Shoes
Wait, I don't understand. So every fight Dooku has ever been in... was PIS? Huh? I was saying how if Dooku's victories against opponents that were of (near)equal standing to him were done without using the Force, then he (and they, if they didn't either) are dumbasses. They have those powers, use 'em.


Originally posted by Shoes
Qui-Gon From what book, I'm curious?



Originally posted by Shoes
How so? "Powerful you have become, Dooku. The Dark Side I sense in you."

Shoes
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Huh? I was saying how if Dooku's victories against opponents that were of (near)equal standing to him were done without using the Force, then he (and they, if they didn't either) are dumbasses. They have those powers, use 'em.

K



He was a master of Form IV: Ataru, often having sparred with Mace Windu; it is said that neither actually managed to outduel the other.

Says EGC.



Fair enough.

Lord Lucien
I really should have bought the Guides and Chronologies. I bought the LotR one, but not SW.

truejedi
What page of the EGC?

Someone with that book recently said its not in there. You are simply using wiki, no?

Shoes
I personally don't have EGC. Citation fail?

Galan007
Since it seems to be a hot topic, here are Qui-Gon's AND Mace's bios from The New Essential Guide to Characters:
http://img522.imageshack.us/i/quigon1.jpg/
http://img192.imageshack.us/i/quigon2.jpg/

http://img64.imageshack.us/i/mace1h.jpg/
http://img37.imageshack.us/i/mace2.jpg/

As you can see, neither bio mentions Qui-Gon being Mace's equal in any area.

Q99
Hm, ok, then where did I read it...? Agh, sorry for getting the reference wrong, I'll try and remember.

I'm going to cut down on making claims, at least until I can refresh my knowledge of the sources.

Ms.Marvel
man. galens got all the moves.

DrunknClockwork
Originally posted by Shoes
Reading that wasn't even worth the calorie I burned from moving my eyes across the screen.
You suck.

See how easy this is?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Galan007
I don't think that line alone is enough to say Dooku was incontrovertibly Mace's equal... Especially when quotes like this also exist to counter it:

"Though Yoda's junior by hundreds of years, Mace Windu was considered his equal in terms of ability, insight, and command." - from the Jedi Sourcebook.

From that quote one could gather that Mace = Yoda > Dooku. Feel me?

Your not really suggesting Mace is Yoda's equal are you??

It says in terms of Ability, not Power. And Who says Yoda is above Dooku in ability?

Dooku was regarded "Most Learned in the ways of the Force" DR, and being The Master of the Ultimate duelling form, im not sure if anyone beats him in ability.. Apart from Sidious in Dark Side knowledge and Mastery.

Yoda is however considerably more Powerful than either Mace or Dooku, which is why he would defeat either of them. But they are 2 of the very very very few who can even put up a fight against the Grand Master of the Jedi Order.

Galan007
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your not really suggesting Mace is Yoda's equal are you?? Posted earlier:Originally posted by Galan007
And keep in mind that I am not trying to use the statement I posted as evidence. It was only a 'tool' used to demonstrate why your Dooku=Mace line of logic is flawed. A single line (and in your case, an inconclusive one at that) doesn't mean much.

ares834
But one must realize Dooku and Yoda have both been known to outspar Mace Windu.

Galan007
Pre-inventing-Vapaad? I could agree with that. Post-inventing-Vapaad? Nah.

DARTH POWER
Yes but your point doesnt work, because the line you posted only talks about ability, which may be true. In terms of Saber Skills for instance Mace might even be superior to Yoda, but still wuldnt beat him in a lightsaber fight because Yoda himself is still a Ridiculously Skilled duellist + Faster & More Powerful than Mace.

However the quote Ares gave you was from the Narrator of a Book which is Considered Canon, and which was clearly talking about speed, power and skill overall in sabers. You shuldnt argue against Canon statements like that Unless it is conclusively proved that it is a false statement.

A better argument for you to not accpet that quote would be that this was during the Clone Wars and by ROTS Mace may have improved more than Dooku. However even if thats true Mace clearly was never "Miles" above Dooku in Saber Skills, and Iv not seen anything to make me think Mace is Dooku's superior in Force Mastery.

ares834
Originally posted by Galan007
Pre-inventing-Vapaad? I could agree with that. Post-inventing-Vapaad? Nah.
Prove that he invented Vaapad after he was bested by Yoda and Dooku.

Galan007
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes but your point doesnt work, because the line you posted only talks about ability, which may be true. In terms of Saber Skills for instance Mace might even be superior to Yoda, but still wuldnt beat him in a lightsaber fight because Yoda himself is still a Ridiculously Skilled duellist + Faster & More Powerful than Mace.

However the quote Ares gave you was from the Narrator of a Book which is Considered Canon, and which was clearly talking about speed, power and skill overall in sabers. You shuldnt argue against Canon statements like that Unless it is conclusively proved that it is a false statement.

A better argument for you to not accpet that quote would be that this was during the Clone Wars and by ROTS Mace may have improved more than Dooku. However even if thats true Mace clearly was never "Miles" above Dooku in Saber Skills, and Iv not seen anything to make me think Mace is Dooku's superior in Force Mastery. I never once argued against canonicity. However, the fact that the word "perhaps" is used in that quote, hardly makes it a conclusive/full-proof piece of evidence. To suggest otherwise is to completely disregard that fact, and to sink further and further into a wildly fallacious type of debating style.

Originally posted by ares834
Prove that he invented Vaapad after he was bested by Yoda and Dooku. Dooku would've only sparred Windu before leaving the Jedi order.

Furthermore, I would like you to prove that Dooku/Yoda bested Mace while he was using Vapaad. Two can play this game.

smile

ares834
When one read the quote the "perhaps" isn't sayng that Dooku may be Mace's equal. Rather it is saying that perhaps only Mace was his equal, meaning Mace=Dooku and perhaps no other jedi are their equal.

Regardless the quote in conjuction with Dooku outdueling Mace indicate that they are at least in a very similar level of skill.


So he invented Vaapad after Dooku left the order? I doubt it. After all he taught it to Depa who was at the time of TPM a Jedi on the council

First there is no reason to suggest this. Its like saying prove that Anakin was using Djem So against Kenobi. Its his form and should be the form he is assumed to be using unless stated otherwise. Regardless you made the claim back it up.

Galan007
Originally posted by ares834
When one read the quote the "perhaps" isn't sayng that Dooku may be Mace's equal. Rather it is saying that perhaps only Mace was his equal, meaning Mace=Dooku and perhaps no other jedi are their equal.

Regardless the quote in conjuction with Dooku outdueling Mace indicate that they are at least in a very similar level of skill. That is your interpretation, and you are welcome to it. I disagree, though.

Unless proof can be provided that Dooku bested Mace while he was employing Vapaad, then I will keep on thinking that their previous sparring matches occurred before Dooku left the Jedi order, thus occurring before Mace invented Vapaad.

Ms.Marvel
2 things.

1. where is it stated that dooku ever bested mace in lightsaber combat?

2. i dont think the "perhaps" there was only in regard to mace being the only jedi who was his equal.

Andrew Ryan
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
2 things.

1. where is it stated that dooku ever bested mace in lightsaber combat?

2. i dont think the "perhaps" there was only in regard to mace being the only jedi who was his equal.

The Power of the Jedi sourcebook stated that Mace only ever lost to two jedi - Dooku and Yoda.

Andrew Ryan
Originally posted by Galan007
That is your interpretation, and you are welcome to it. I disagree, though.

Unless proof can be provided that Dooku bested Mace while he was employing Vapaad, then I will keep on thinking that their previous sparring matches occurred before Dooku left the Jedi order, thus occurring before Mace invented Vapaad.

Sorry to double post, but I had to get this one.

Mace's former apprentice, a bona fide master of Vaapad, is a council member and master as of The Phantom Menace. I'd say it's a fair bet that Dooku bested Mace when the latter was utilizing Vaapad. That doesn't preclude Mace getting better, but it says a lot. Also, Dooku's style is ideal for saber to saber combat according to the original source, Fightsaber.

When Mace did confront Dooku in the Attack of the Clones novelization, he was cited as being the Shatterpoint to the whole war, but Mace himself, if I recall correctly, did not see a viable shatterpoint in Dooku's style. Rather, he noted that he was vulnerable with his attention focused on the field and his weapon away.

It's doubtful that Dooku would have a tremendous edge over Mace in Force combat, so I can only assume that the saber technique would be the deciding factor. Unless something surfaces where Mace finds Dooku's Shatterpoint before he is bested, even money rests on the Count.

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by Andrew Ryan
The Power of the Jedi sourcebook stated that Mace only ever lost to two jedi - Dooku and Yoda.

isnt that a bit ambiguous? dooku was 83 when he died. mace was 53. so there's a 30 year difference between them in age. so how do you know that the time that dooku beat mace wasnt when dooku was darn near a grown man and mace was a child?

why even bother using that quote. it doesnt substantiate anything at all.

Andrew Ryan
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
isnt that a bit ambiguous? dooku was 83 when he died. mace was 53. so there's a 30 year difference between them in age. so how do you know that the time that dooku beat mace wasnt when dooku was darn near a grown man and mace was a child?

why even bother using that quote. it doesnt substantiate anything at all.

Mainly because you can only work with what you have, right? If you are asked to compare two mixed martial artists, and you know one has lost to the other at some point in his career but you know nothing else, it is entirely logical to assume he has the disadvantage. Anyone assuming the opposite bears the burden of proof, naturally.

Ms.Marvel
thats not logical at all. if youre comapring two martial artists and all you know is that at one point one lost another at an unknown point in time with unknown circumstances, then you state that there's simply not enough data to make a sound judgement either way. arguing simply for the sake of arguing is dumb.

DrunknClockwork
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
isnt that a bit ambiguous? dooku was 83 when he died. mace was 53. so there's a 30 year difference between them in age. so how do you know that the time that dooku beat mace wasnt when dooku was darn near a grown man and mace was a child?

why even bother using that quote. it doesnt substantiate anything at all.
So when you say that Yoda and Dooku beat him while he was still a child, doesn't that mean that Mace has never lost to any other Jedi Master (like Qui-Gonn in his physical prime) even during this time? no expression

truejedi
Originally posted by Andrew Ryan
The Power of the Jedi sourcebook stated that Mace only ever lost to two jedi - Dooku and Yoda.

What page number?

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
So when you say that Yoda and Dooku beat him while he was still a child, doesn't that mean that Mace has never lost to any other Jedi Master (like Qui-Gonn in his physical prime) even during this time? no expression

its possible.

there is a reason for why mace is pretty much the #2 best jedi in the orders entire history which consists of thousands of years and millions of members.

Galan007
Originally posted by Andrew Ryan
Mace's former apprentice, a bona fide master of Vaapad, is a council member and master as of The Phantom Menace.

I'd say it's a fair bet that Dooku bested Mace when the latter was utilizing Vaapad. That doesn't preclude Mace getting better, but it says a lot.

Also, Dooku's style is ideal for saber to saber combat according to the original source, Fightsaber. As far as I know, any/all of Depa's Vapaad-feats occur after AotC. Nothing I've seen suggests that she was a master of that form around the time of TPM.

IF Mace was in fact utilizing Vapaad when he sparred with Dooku (when he was a Jedi), it's safe to say that his 'adeptness' with said form was nowhere near what it would be years later when he battled Sidious. It's similiar to comparing Luke's technique in ESB, to his technique post-RotJ.

In the AotC novelization, it was stated that one of the main 'flaws' in form II is that it does not generate enough kinetic force to compete with some of the other forms that use more power/brute force. That said, I personally feel that a Vapaad master is superior to Makashi master for that reason alone.


Originally posted by truejedi
What page number? Page #112.

"In the history of the Jedi order, only two opponents ever overcame in battle. One was master Yoda, who some said was the order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former master Dooku, who's own style was archaic, but stunningly effective."

Because we don't have any sort of time line to go by, that statement is horribly ambiguous. At best.

truejedi
Originally posted by Galan007



Page #112.

"In the history of the Jedi order, only two opponents ever overcame . One was master Yoda, who some said was the order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former master Dooku, who's own style was archaic, but stunningly effective."

Because we don't have any sort of time line to go by, that statement is horribly ambiguous. At best.
Good job with the page number! now. If that is the quote, its pretty obvious it was a sparring match. So maybe Dooku won ONE out of a HUNDRED.

That quote doesn't make dooku on-par with Mace. It means he bested him ONCE in a sparring match.

Gideon
TJ
That quote doesn't make dooku on-par with Mace. It means he bested him ONCE in a sparring match.

thumb up

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
thats not logical at all. if youre comapring two martial artists and all you know is that at one point one lost another at an unknown point in time with unknown circumstances, then you state that there's simply not enough data to make a sound judgement either way. arguing simply for the sake of arguing is dumb.

I think you're missing what A.R. is saying. If the ONLY thing you have to go on is their head to head record, then assuming who the favorite and the underdog is, wouldn't be illogical.

Andrew Ryan
Originally posted by Galan007
As far as I know, any/all of Depa's Vapaad-feats occur after AotC. Nothing I've seen suggests that she was a master of that form around the time of TPM.

Depa learned the style from Mace Windu as his apprentice. In Shatterpoint, she's explicitly stated as having used the form while being surrounded by war dogs with Mace Windu in a flashback. The fact that she's a master in her own right and established enough to be on the Council at the time of the claim that Qui-Gon is in Mace's league seems to confirm that Mace's form predates the Dooku battle. Furthermore, a direct scan proves this:

http://i42.tinypic.com/1znan38.jpg



The burden of proof is on anyone who attempts to prove a significant disparity between Mace as he dueled Dooku and Mace as he is much later. In any case, Mace's form was considered "mastered" before Depa left his care, which is before TPM. It is logical to assume that even if Mace's style has progressed, it has not achieved much beyond previously established mastery.

Since nothing can be directly substantiated and people insist on applying a vague value on Mace's progress from the time of his defeat until TPM (since they have no direct proof of how much Mace has changed, of course), you have two confirmed values - Mace was defeated while using his Vaapad against Dooku's Makashi, and both have had an equal amount of time to progress in skill, assuming they progressed much at all.



1. I remember this from the Revenge of the Sith novelization, not the Attack of the Clones one.

2. Lack of brute strength does not immediately translate into victory. This should be glaringly obvious. Mace's brute strength and Force strength has not necessarily waned since he dueled Dooku, yet Dooku's razor precision defeated him.

truejedi
Good job with the scan.

And thanks for the quote.

Now this though.

Andrew Ryan
Originally posted by truejedi
Good job with the scan.

And thanks for the quote.

Now this though.

Actually, it says zero about the nature of the battle. But since you're arguing from ignorance, perhaps you can logically explain to me how Mace's only verified battle against Dooku which resulted in a loss somehow translates into a victory because of the passage of time?

Gideon
AR
But since you're arguing from ignorance, perhaps you can logically explain to me how Mace's only verified battle against Dooku which resulted in a loss somehow translates into a victory because of the passage of time?

Where did TJ argue this?

Jinsoku Takai
That quote doesn't make dooku on-par with Mace. It means he bested him ONCE in a sparring match. Originally posted by truejedi
Good job with the page number! now. If that is the quote, its pretty obvious it was a sparring match. So maybe Dooku won ONE out of a HUNDRED.

That quote doesn't make dooku on-par with Mace. It means he bested him ONCE in a sparring match.

cheers

truejedi
Originally posted by Andrew Ryan
Actually, it says zero about the nature of the battle. But since you're arguing from ignorance, perhaps you can logically explain to me how Mace's only verified battle against Dooku which resulted in a loss somehow translates into a victory because of the passage of time?

What? I am saying considering all it says is that Dooku bested Mace once, this doesn't mean that Dooku is better or even on par with Mace. You would need a more definitive quote to establish that.

Andrew Ryan
Originally posted by truejedi
What? I am saying considering all it says is that Dooku bested Mace once, this doesn't mean that Dooku is better or even on par with Mace. You would need a more definitive quote to establish that.

But the whole point is we don't have a definitive quote. Here's the situation: The only evidence we have to go on is a single passage. The reference to Mace's distinctive loss against Dooku who's style was "stunningly effective" is important because it indirectly states two things - that Mace's victory was not close, epic, or otherwise conditional, and that Dooku's style was superb while Mace's style in comparison is "unusual" and "aggressive". Nowhere does it say that Vaapad, Mace's established fighting style, is inherently superior to Dooku's Form II.

truejedi
Was that claim being made? There is no superior lightsaber form. It is how good you are at your chosen form that matters. Mace Windu himself says that in the ROTS novelization. I thought we were discussing who was a better swordsman, and when it comes to that,Mace, by virtue of his victory over sidious > Dooku.

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I think you're missing what A.R. is saying. If the ONLY thing you have to go on is their head to head record, then assuming who the favorite and the underdog is, wouldn't be illogical.

no, i do understand that.

its just that, thats a dumb way of thinking.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by truejedi
What? I am saying considering all it says is that Dooku bested Mace once,

It means that WE KNOW Dooku has outduelled Mace in the past, however we know of no instances where Mace outduelled Dooku, so going from factual information on the subject its at least 1-0 to Dooku.

It also shows that since Yoda and Dooku were the only ones capable of outsparring Mace that they were probably the 2 best swordsmen in the Jedi order(not including mace).



QUOTE=12684548]Originally posted by truejedi
this doesn't mean that Dooku is better or even on par with Mace.

So Dooku outduelling Mace doesnt even make Dooku on par with Mace??

Nice logic.

truejedi
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It means that WE KNOW Dooku has outduelled Mace in the past, however we know of no instances where Mace outduelled Dooku, so going from factual information on the subject its at least 1-0 to Dooku.


We also have Dooku's showing against Yoda (X2), coupled with Mace's showing against Sidious, coupled with Dooku's defeat by Anakin, all of which overcome a SINGLE sparring match.


Your logic doesn't work here. The Bulls beat the Cav's in game 3. Are they better than the Cav's?


yes



Where does it say they dueled? One sparring match does not an argument make. Once again, look at the Cav's-Bulls, or if bball isn't your thing, look at Tampa Bay beating the New Orleans saints.

One victory, when all other evidence indicates otherwise, doesn't make a superior fighter. Kenobi beat Maul. Superior fighter? You tell me.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It means that WE KNOW Dooku has outduelled Mace in the past, however we know of no instances where Mace outduelled Dooku, so going from factual information on the subject its at least 1-0 to Dooku.

It also shows that since Yoda and Dooku were the only ones capable of outsparring Mace that they were probably the 2 best swordsmen in the Jedi order(not including mace).



Nice logic.
I recall reading something stating that Mace and Dooku dueled (for real this time, not some friendly sparring contest) during the Clone Wars, and that Mace acquired the upper hand by "outmaneuvering" Count Dooku. Not sure exactly what source this is from, but I do recall reading it somewhere. So, there is evidence of Mace "outdueling" Dooku somewhere to be found. If anyone knows the source, please let me know. Thanks!

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by truejedi
We also have Dooku's showing against Yoda (X2),

Irrelevant. Theres no evidence to show that Mace would fair any better against Yoda. And Yoda certainly felt Dooku fought very well against him. "Powerful you have become Dooku.... Fought well you have my former padawan.."

Not to mention when asked to spar by mace windu in schism Yoda says "Practice I had against Count Dooku, good enough for me that was." Suggesting theres nothing special Mace can offer Yoda in a sparring match that Dooku didnt give him in their fight.

Originally posted by truejedi
coupled with Mace's showing against Sidious,

Again Irrelevant due to 3 words. Super Conducting Loop. An advantage he wuldnt have against any light sider including Light Side Dooku when they sparred.

Originally posted by truejedi
coupled with Dooku's defeat by Anakin,

For a third time Irrelevant. Again theres no proof Mace wuldnt get beaten by "Zone" Anakin either who in Mace's own words was "arguably the most powerful jedi alive.."

Originally posted by truejedi
all of which overcome a SINGLE sparring match.

and when did you decide that there was only ONE sparring match when this happened. The quote certainly doesnt imply that, so stop making strange assumptions.


Originally posted by truejedi
Your logic doesn't work here. The Bulls beat the Cav's in game 3. Are they better than the Cav's?

So then stop being hypocritical using A>B>C arguments. Your the one who keeps bringing up Mace beating Sidious as evidence that Mace is Greater than Dooku.


Originally posted by truejedi
One victory, when all other evidence indicates otherwise, doesn't make a superior fighter. Kenobi beat Maul. Superior fighter? You tell me.

Again, where does it say ONE victory?? and if it is only ONE, then its ONE more than Mace has on Dooku.

What other evidence are you talking about apart from your A>B>C argument.

And Kenobi never outduelled Maul. If he did then there would be a good argument at Kenobi being a better duellist than Maul. But he didnt, and never could have during TPM era.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
I recall reading something stating that Mace and Dooku dueled (for real this time, not some friendly sparring contest) during the Clone Wars, and that Mace acquired the upper hand by "outmaneuvering" Count Dooku. Not sure exactly what source this is from, but I do recall reading it somewhere. So, there is evidence of Mace "outdueling" Dooku somewhere to be found. If anyone knows the source, please let me know. Thanks!


Iv never heard of this, but once Dooku embraced the Dark Side Vapaad's natural advantage over darksiders would certainly put the odds in Mace's favour. That doesnt neccessarily make Mace superior to Dooku.

Mace beat Sidious, but is certianly not his superior.

DrunknClockwork
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
its possible.

there is a reason for why mace is pretty much the #2 best jedi in the orders entire history which consists of thousands of years and millions of members.
You seriously believe that Mace as a child was already better than the whole Jedi Order except Yoda and Dooku? I mean...really? no expression

Originally posted by truejedi
Your logic doesn't work here. The Bulls beat the Cav's in game 3. Are they better than the Cav's?
I'm not really into US sports so I'm just assuming that the Bulls won the rest of the games. If that's the case then it's a really horrible analogy.
We actually DO know that the Bulls won the rest of the games (right?), it's FACT. There is no such fact for Windu beating Dooku even once to make up for his (at the very least, depends on the interpretation of the text passage) single loss.

truejedi
Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
You seriously believe that Mace as a child was already better than the whole Jedi Order except Yoda and Dooku? I mean...really? no expression


Why do you keep bringin up child? I haven't said a word about child.



In the case of the Saints and of the Bucs, they only played one time. The buc's won. For the season, New Orleans was 13-3 and won the super bowl. The Bucs were something like 3-13. They didn't play again, but all evidence points to the saints being better than the bucs.

This is a similar situation to the Mace-Dooku situation.

DrunknClockwork
Originally posted by truejedi
Why do you keep bringin up child? I haven't said a word about child.
I wasn't quoting you.



Going by those stats I assume (again I have no Idea about US sports) that the Bucs suck and that the Saints are a far better team. So when the Bucs beat the Saints one game there may be some luck behind that.

But the problem with Dooku-Mace is: Dooku wasn't a bad Jedi Master, in fact Yoda called him THE best student the Jedi Order has EVER had (this was a statement from DR so that also includes Mace). So when someone like him beats Mace and Mace has really has no quotes going for him that he could really take on Dooku as of TPM, your sports-analogy doesn't quite work here.

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
You seriously believe that Mace as a child was already better than the whole Jedi Order except Yoda and Dooku? I mean...really? no expression


is that what i said?

Hawtsauce
Why doesn't Mace get Shatterpoint? That's like taking Palpatine's lightning away...

Regardless, Mace wins, whether its Vader, Light Side Anakin, etc..

Ms.Marvel
who are you no expression

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