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It's been a few years after the Federation Alliance has defeated the Dominion. Palpatine discovers the Alpha Quadrant and launches a full scale assault and for a twist, the Federation Alliance kicks the Empire out. The Federation Alliance then launches a counter-offensive with the objective of overthrowing Palpatine. They also enlisted the help of the Dominion. Who wins? Super weapons like the Death Star are not allowed.

Federation Alliance Combat leadership:
Admiral Janeway
General Martok
Shinzon
Captain Picard

Empire Combat Leadership:
Admiral Daala
Admiral Thrawn
Darth Vader

*Take into account that the Federation, Klingons & Romulans plundered Dominion techological secrets (shields, weapons, sensors, etc etc).

This is the Star Wars forum. Ergo:

Empire pwns.

several million worlds vs a few thousand worlds

25,000 ISD's vs a few thousands comparatively tiny starships

100 million times the speed of light hyperdrives vs a few thousand times speed of light warp drives

2.4 million megaton weapons vs 1160 megaton weapons

lol@Lord Lucien in the battle bar #2 thinking that Jaden "won" that argument, even though Lucien didn't actually (gasp!) read the argument.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This is the Star Wars forum. Ergo:

Empire pwns.

Thrawn kicks their asses with a single Star Destroyer

(In other words, Star Trek FAILS)

Jaden on gimp threads:


Weapon ranges:
http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/VisAid/weaponrange.jpg


Trek Wins.

Where's that picture from?

How did I know?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
lol@Lord Lucien in the battle bar #2 thinking that Jaden "won" that argument, even though Lucien didn't actually (gasp!) read the argument. I'm looking at that page in the Battle Bar right now. These were my posts:


Originally posted by Me
I can't be bothered to read all 20 pages of that. Did Jaden come up with any good points for Star Trek?


Originally posted by Me
Is that because no one could argue against him?

Yeah, I said the words "Jaden won" like a million times here. Way to go dipshit, you're the biggest lieing joke this subforum's ever had to put up with.

Not by a long shot.

haterz keep on hatin

I don't hate noone, I luv woo.

no homo ma nigguh

srsly tho, HK is smallfries compared to the other guy, so be nicer

or ignore him and get on with your life

HWKA's incorrect views on Bioware's storytelling merits notwithstanding, I don't think he's really done anything that warrants such animosity from everyone here. He generally keeps the place fresh with a different approach to these arguments and topics and seems perfectly willing to engage in civil, reasoned discussions with everyone. Even if you disagree with him or think he "sucks" or whatever there's no need for such hostility.

Originally posted by Eminence
the other guy

Originally posted by The Contact
HWKA's incorrect views on Bioware's storytelling merits notwithstanding, I don't think he's really done anything that warrants such animosity from everyone here. He generally keeps the place fresh with a different approach to these arguments and topics and seems perfectly willing to engage in civil, reasoned discussions with everyone. Even if you disagree with him or think he "sucks" or whatever there's no need for such hostility.

Well, for how long have you been watching these forums?

Originally posted by The Contact
HWKA's incorrect views on Bioware's storytelling merits notwithstanding, I don't think he's really done anything that warrants such animosity from everyone here. He generally keeps the place fresh with a different approach to these arguments and topics and seems perfectly willing to engage in civil, reasoned discussions with everyone. Even if you disagree with him or think he "sucks" or whatever there's no need for such hostility. I envy your low standards.



On the plus side, he did lead me to that ST vs. SW thread. I'd actually like to get involved there if I had actual sources on hand. Jaden's been using Han's line about "entire fleet=1000 ships" as canon. Where did the 25,000 number come from?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Are you saying that "Jaden won" and then admitting that you didn't actually read the debate? facepalm

No, you half-wit. I asked if he made any good points and wanted to know why he was considered to have won, hence my follow-up question of "Was it because no one could argue against him?"

I never admitted he won. I never said he won. I never conceded he won. I said nothing of the sort. Stop looking for hidden meaning and attacks against. I've actually been in that thread recently looking for wayward flaws in his points.

Jesus f*cking Christ.

Originally posted by The Contact
HWKA's incorrect views on Bioware's storytelling merits notwithstanding, I don't think he's really done anything that warrants such animosity from everyone here. He generally keeps the place fresh with a different approach to these arguments and topics and seems perfectly willing to engage in civil, reasoned discussions with everyone. Even if you disagree with him or think he "sucks" or whatever there's no need for such hostility.

This is not so. His continuing pattern of passive-aggressive self-victimization, when combined with the absurdly personal nature of his intermittent outbursts (not to mention the longevity and import of fault within his construct of the dynamic at KMC) make him considerably more abrasive than you ever were, Neb.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Which is obviously your attempt to insult me. This. This right here is what everyone in this entire forum has against you. At the time of my posting in the Battle Bar, I had given one glance as to how many pages that thread was and refused to read it. I even SAID that.

But you see an insult to yourself. I didn't even know you had been posting in that thread. Because you dislike me you saw an imaginary insult to you.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This. This right here is what everyone in this entire forum has against you. At the time of my posting in the Battle Bar, I had given one glance as to how many pages that thread was and refused to read it. I even SAID that.

But you see an insult to yourself. I didn't even know you had been posting in that thread. Because you dislike me you saw an imaginary insult to you.

Well then, I'm sorry if I did indeed misinterpret your response as an insult when it wasn't, but I'm still suspicious as to you saying that in a thread where I was debating Jaden101 - and let's face it; you oppose me in almost every thread that I debated a lot in, often times when you had me on ignore and didn't even read my arguments.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Well then, I'm sorry if I did indeed misinterpret your response as an insult when it wasn't, but I'm still suspicious as to you saying that in a thread where I was debating Jaden101 - and let's face it; you oppose me in almost every thread that I debated a lot in, often times when you had me on ignore and didn't even read my arguments. Again, spot an attack when it happens, don't look for (and find) one on the suspicion that it might have been there. At the very least, ask bluntly if it was there.

The Galactic Empire stomps the hell out of the Federation.

I have a better suggestion. Research something called The Imperium of Man.

They are a much more entertaining opponent for the Feddies.

there was a very long debate in the sci-fi forum on star wars vs. warhammer 40K

Originally posted by AthenasTrgrFngr
there was a very long debate in the sci-fi forum on star wars vs. warhammer 40K It's a close call too. If, say, a massive Crusade is launched against the Empire, say something involving 20,000 plus SMs, tens, if not hundreds of billions of Guardsmen along with the appropriate Naval Force to transport them, and the Mechanicum with the Collegia Titanica, the GE would fall. If nothing more than having a crapton of worlds sacked or Exterminatused, having to devote massive amounts of resources to stopping the invading Navy, which outgun the GE ships by a large but not insurmountable margin, but the real killer is how much more durable the Imperium ships are. You would be looking at entire Sector Fleets and maybe a Deathstar or two wiped out just trying to halt them.

And on the ground? Good god would the Guard have a field day with Storm Troopers andthe like. The SMs might get bored... No, seriously, bored.

And I pray that there aren't any Grey Knights being brought along, otherwise Vader is ****ed. Palpatine not so much, but Vader would be doomed. If they bring a Custode along....well Palpatine joins the screwed crowd.

But that's if its just a Crusade. If it is a total mobilization, once the IOM gets rolling, nothing would stop it.

However, the GE could largely be in the same situation, albeit there losses would be far more severe. It largely depends on who has the iniative and a few otehr things, But its an even fight.

Link plz?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f88/t417876.html

thanks.

Im currently reading the failure of the other sw vs st as well

urm, that Star Craft vs WH40K. Which is a horrible stomp in favor of 40K.

You know I can see maybe the Borg defeating the Empire, but certainly not the Federation.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You know I can see maybe the Borg defeating the Empire, but certainly not the Federation. Nope. See, 847 proved, at the very least, that the Borg have limitations on the adapting part.

Even if they didn't, there would be a certain point where they simply could not disperse that energy fast enough for their shields to be effective.

The problem is in OOM. Order of magnitudes. The Deathstar's superlaser in either incarnation is overkill, it's epic ****-ton of Heavy TBs, regular TBs, and otehr assorted cannons along with tractor beams and nigh-invincible shields would prevent the Brog from being able to do anything. Not to mention that range thing is...BS.. to put it mildly.


At the high-end, we have 200 Gigaton per shot at maximum 'charge' for Heavy Turbolasers on everything from Acclamators and beyond. At the very least, this puts 'most' shots at around 20+ gigatons.

Gigatons. Not Megatons. Giga. Order of Magnitude.

Even assuming the Borg could get ahold of hyperdrive, it would only put them at parity as far as Strategic Speed is concerned. Tactical FTL is an advantage, but not a major won that has been repeatedly used.

The IOM ships are occasionaly rated in the Teratons. yeah....

No, even the Borg would simply get slaughtered. Against base Imperial-Class SDs. Against Executor-Class SSDs or god forbid Eclipse-Class(Has its own Superlaser, smaller obviously, but even without it is still much more heavily armed and armored than the Executor) it is a brutal massacre.

And if at any point a major battle(Excluding the GE having to defend Strategically important facilities) it looks like the Borg are gaining the upperhand, the GE can bug out with impunity.

If they went with infiltration and quiet-like stuff to steal the Empire tech and refit their own vessels with it, then yeah, the Borg could do it. But, that's not their MO...

I've read the stardestroyer.net entry a few times, and are their stats backed up by source Star Wars material? Because if they are, as Jaden says they aren't, then power-output and range would f*ck over any of the Star Trek militaries.

And I have looked and looked, asked many Trekkies I know and no one and nothing can give a definitive limit or range of the Borg's adaptation capabilities. How much is too much? How many drones are affected by one instance? For how long? When one group adapt to a phaser's beam, does the ENTIRE collective adapt that frequency? Every time the Federation kills a drone, their entire species becomes immune to that magnitude of weapon? Bullshit, the Borg would have conquered the galaxy centuries ago. Their must be a limit, or they'd never be beaten.


Only thing Star Trek has is Species 8571 and Q (that's all I know of). Gods and god-like being are deus ex machinas for anything. Though Star Wars has its own supernatural gods too.

As much as I despise Wong, ALL of his stuff is backed up by Canon. Go ask them yourself. Self-important douchebagy dickhead they are, they aren't lying about the disparity.

In economic terms, it isn't even Imperial Japan vs USA, it's Haiti vs USA.

Star Trek doesn't have a prayer. Their weapons are physical torpedoes. What can blow up torpedoes? Lasers. Their superior range is mooted right there.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You know I can see maybe the Borg defeating the Empire, but certainly not the Federation.

No, not really. Even borg cubes were damaged by 1160 megaton weapons and fought in 5 miles ranges, so I don't see how they could stand up to 2.4 million megaton weapons being fired from thousands of miles.

Borg weapons are also inaccurate, unable to consistently hit Federation starships at 5 mile ranges, so I don't see how they could consistently hit Star Wars starfighters.

Also, there's the huge industrial and numerical difference. Star Wars has millions of worlds, some with populations in the trillions.

Heck, even species 8472 would lose to Star Wars.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
No, not really. Even borg cubes were damaged by 1160 megaton weapons and fought in 5 miles ranges, so I don't see how they could stand up to 2.4 million megaton weapons being fired from thousands of miles.

Borg weapons are also inaccurate, unable to consistently hit Federation starships at 5 mile ranges, so I don't see how they could consistently hit Star Wars starfighters.

Also, there's the huge industrial and numerical difference. Star Wars has millions of worlds, some with populations in the trillions.

Heck, even species 8472 would lose to Star Wars. Strangely enough, 8472 is about the only one of ST factions barring Q and Co that is given a chance.

Originally posted by truejedi
Star Trek doesn't have a prayer. Their weapons are physical torpedoes. What can blow up torpedoes? Lasers. Their superior range is mooted right there.
That isn't the range that was shown. That was phasers I thought.

Also: when have 'Wars weapons been shown to be equivalent to a point defense system? A human would have to hit that target.

Also: Transphasic torpedoes phase in and out of existence. They would go through any shields and the "laser" would go right through them.



Both Voyager and the Enterprise have been stated to have power generation of a "terawatt" at least.

I don't think orders of magnitude will be a problem.

QFT and

Star Wars: 200 trillion gigawatt reactor cores
Star Trek: 15 billion billion gigawatt reactor cores.

OOPS!!!! Lol mistake, it's actually:

Star Wars: 200 trillion gigawatt reactor cores
Star Trek 15 billion gigawatt reactor cores

I don't know what a darkstar argument is.

don't take it personally HWKA, but i doubt he is dodging you point, he probably just has you on ignore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrancN6_yYA

Based on the above video, Star Trek ships have an effective range less than many Star Wars hand held weapons.

Star Wars ships have a range of thousands of miles using 2.4 million megaton weapons and with 200 trillion gigawatt reactor cores.
Star Trek ships have a range of 10 kilometers using 1160 megaton weapons and with 15 billion gigawatt reactor cores.

Notice the difference?

2.4 million megaton vs 1160 megatons = factor of over 1000
thousands of miles vs 10 kilometers = factor of over 100
200 trillion gigawatts vs 15 billion gigawatts = factor of over 10,000

Star Wars is superior to Star Trek technologically by factors ranging from 100 to over 10,000.

i think it is pretty obvious that Star Wars is going to win this one.... Even without the evidence. But the evidence isn't a bad thing.

Unless you throw the Q in.

How do we know that Q has the same power over people from a different Universe that he does from Earth's Universe?

How do we know the Force works against people from another Universe? Do laser blasts work on Trek shields/ships? Do the Borg's nano-assimilating things work on Star Wars beings?

It's a hypothetical battle of fictional things, just go with it.

But I would counter the Q with those god-like beings that killed Leia.

what? what god-like beings? and since when is leia dead?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

But I would counter the Q with those god-like beings that killed Leia.
OMG SPOILSERS DUDE!!!

what are you talking about senor? is this something from legacy?

Nah he is joking... I think.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Unless you throw the Q in. He is just as likely the reason the EVIL GODDAMNED COMMUNIST Federation is getting stomped. I really wouldn't put it past Q to do it either for shits and giggles or because he has a soft spot for humanity or something.


Q isn't a protecter, he is more of a djinn.

WITHOUT LIMITS.

Originally posted by truejedi
How do we know that Q has the same power over people from a different Universe that he does from Earth's Universe?

Hmmm. Let me think.

"A LONG TIME AGO IN A GALAXY FAR FAR AWAY"

Safe to say same universe?

Yeah.

It's touching that i'm being name dropped (trolled)in this thread in my absence. Really is.

If anyone wishes to see what I've actually argued rather than HWKA's trolling interpretation of what I've argued then visit these threads.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=519709&pagenumber=1

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f103/t499313.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=335025&highlight=star+trek+forumid%3A6

If you actually have any sensible arguments then feel free to post them. If you're a trolling SW or ST fan boy idiot with no actual knowledge of the opposing franchise then I wouldn't bother posting until you've read the threads because most likely your points have been addressed and I'm rather tired of repeating myself to people with who fail to comprehend basic points.

Originally posted by jaden101
Hmmm. Let me think.

"A LONG TIME AGO IN A GALAXY FAR FAR AWAY"

Safe to say same universe?

Yeah.

It's touching that i'm being name dropped (trolled)in this thread in my absence. Really is.

If anyone wishes to see what I've actually argued rather than HWKA's trolling interpretation of what I've argued then visit these threads.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=519709&pagenumber=1

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f103/t499313.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=335025&highlight=star+trek+forumid%3A6

If you actually have any sensible arguments then feel free to post them. If you're a trolling SW or ST fan boy idiot with no actual knowledge of the opposing franchise then I wouldn't bother posting until you've read the threads because most likely your points have been addressed and I'm rather tired of repeating myself to people with who fail to comprehend basic points.

It would be good to have a debate with someone who actually knows what they're talking about because my recent debates I've not only had to correct my opponent on their understanding of ST but i've even had to correct their understanding SW despite the fact that they're arguing FOR SW.

Originally posted by truejedi
what are you talking about senor? is this something from legacy? Right here. As gay as this little story is, it's canon.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Right here. As gay as this little story is, it's canon.
I refuse to accept this as canon.

You do that.

Got to spacebattles. They will be happy to destroy you.

Besides, sheer industrial might won this fight long before it begun.

Originally posted by jaden101
Hmmm. Let me think.

"A LONG TIME AGO IN A GALAXY FAR FAR AWAY"

Safe to say same universe?

Yeah.

It's touching that i'm being name dropped (trolled)in this thread in my absence. Really is.

If anyone wishes to see what I've actually argued rather than HWKA's trolling interpretation of what I've argued then visit these threads.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=519709&pagenumber=1

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f103/t499313.html

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=335025&highlight=star+trek+forumid%3A6

If you actually have any sensible arguments then feel free to post them. If you're a trolling SW or ST fan boy idiot with no actual knowledge of the opposing franchise then I wouldn't bother posting until you've read the threads because most likely your points have been addressed and I'm rather tired of repeating myself to people with who fail to comprehend basic points.

Earlier in that thread you admitted that the Federation would lose to Star Wars pretty badly, but said that some of the more powerful factions such as species 8472 wouldn't. Why are you suddenly changing your mind?

thats pretty horrible.

tj, mind providing clarifications?

the story about leia and the omnipotent beings.

I understand that I said that I wanted to introduce SW Vs. Anything into the forums, but this is not the way that I want it done. This is against the rules; closed.