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Dooku figures out Palpatine plans to betray him. He goes to Mandalore, and takes Ventress, and Savage with him. They fight in the Mandalore Throne room. Which team takes it?

The way I see it, Palpatine is kinda outmatched against the trio. In a light saber duel, Dooku alone could match Palpatine. With the help of Ventress and Savage, there's no doubt that they gain the advantage. And while Palpatine has Force Abilties superior to anyone in the trio, all 3 have shown undeniably impressive Force feats that may actually allow their combined strength to overcome Palpatine in a battle of the Force.

Still, this is a close fight. There is definitely a casualty of either Ventress or Savage. Perhaps both. But in the end, the Dark Lord just can't win. The team takes it.

Too many for him to take on here.

Dooku and Opress vs Sidious would be a more even fight. Unlike Maul and Opress this duo won't be so ridiculously outmatched by Sidious's force powers. And the Lightsaber duel will be a good one, but I'd give the duo the edge.

Adding Ventress is too much Imo, unless Sidious can just snap her neck right at the start.

Palpatine wins handily.

Palpatine can take Ventress out of the fight rather quickly with the force alone, leaving Dooku and Savage. He would probably take Dooku & Savage more seriously than he did Maul & Savage, as Dooku has more offensive force powers to throw at him than Maul. Palpatine is considerably quicker, stronger (both physically and force-wise), and far more agile than both of them. I'm also assuming here that he is not holding back on killing either of them.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The way I see it, Palpatine is kinda outmatched against the trio. In a light saber duel, Dooku alone could match Palpatine.

Have you read any of the scenes in which Dooku and Palps engage one another? Dooku knows that he is outmatched. Dooku solo could never take Sidious.

As to this situation, a three on one would be pretty difficult for anyone.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
As to this situation, a three on one would be pretty difficult for anyone.

Would it be terribly inappropriate if I made a joke about your mother here?

Which version of Palpatine? ROTS? I'm going with the team in a swordfight. I'm pretty sure Dooku and Palpatine are equal in lighsaber combat.

Of course if it becomes a force fight the, well, they're ****ed.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Would it be terribly inappropriate if I made a joke about your mother here?
Not at all; your mother is a joke all the time, so I don't mind mine being one for a second to bring you a little relief.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Not at all; your mother is a joke all the time, so I don't mind mine being one for a second to bring you a little relief.

Not cool, bro.

My dad used to hit my mom when his dinner was cold.

So she was less a joke and more the punch line.

YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Originally posted by Eminence


Well, let's be honest, b1tch deserved it.

You will kindly post your thoughts as to this thread.

Waits for opening, kickflips it in the face. Dramatic Force-push. Rinse, repeat.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not cool, bro.

My dad used to hit my mom when his dinner was cold.

So she was less a joke and more the punch line.

YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Excellent form.

Are there any at least vague sources of how Sidious trained Dooku anything?

If this is an all out, I'd say Sidious takes it. Against the brothers we can see that if he had chosen to simply use the Force rather than engage them in a lightsaber duel, it would've been a very, very short fight.

Against three, Sidious probably figures he could be out-matched in the sabers department, so he most probably would use the Force against the three of them.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
If this is an all out, I'd say Sidious takes it. Against the brothers we can see that if he had chosen to simply use the Force rather than engage them in a lightsaber duel, it would've been a very, very short fight.

Against three, Sidious probably figures he could be out-matched in the sabers department, so he most probably would use the Force against the three of them.

And what you think that would be easy or something?

Dooku alone has displayed awesome telekinetic abilities.

And Opress is a physical beast so it would take a lot of thwoing and crushing before he get's take down as well.

And Ventress is... Well a third opponent. The sheer numbers will start to get to him.

Oppress and Ventress are really only useful as distractions for Dooku......


Ventress will be disabled by the Force in seconds, as per what Yoda did to her.

Oppress was tooled by Sidious (including casual dodging of his lightsaber strikes)

And Dooku can't win 1 on 1.




So, what happens? Yoda and Mace feel this absurd gathering of dark side energy, show up, and kill whoever remains.

I think Darth Curious would win, no doubt.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And what you think that would be easy or something?

Dooku alone has displayed awesome telekinetic abilities.

And Opress is a physical beast so it would take a lot of thwoing and crushing before he get's take down as well.

And Ventress is... Well a third opponent. The sheer numbers will start to get to him.

Four Jedi Masters came to 'take him under arrest'. He destroys three of them with extreme ease. Despite what you continue to argue, they were no pushovers, with Fisto being able to stand one-on-one against Grievous and the rest considered 'celebrated swordsmen'. Since you still believe Sidious wasn't toying around with the brothers you obviously will never see this, even with him saying 'he did better than the Council ever did' it doesn't make it false.

Opress is nothing for Sidious' might. He would dispose of him in seconds. The same goes for Ventress. The only one who could give him a hard time is the Count. The other two pose no threat for him whatsoever.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Four Jedi Masters came to 'take him under arrest'. He destroys three of them with extreme ease. Despite what you continue to argue, they were no pushovers, with Fisto being able to stand one-on-one against Grievous and the rest considered 'celebrated swordsmen'.

I never said they were pushovers(though obviously they are compared to Sidious), but they're clearly no match for Opress, Maul, Kenobi.

Heck we already know that Fisto, the best of those 3, is no match for Ventress. And Opress alone has proven he can batter Ventress in Saber combat. Whilst we know both Kenobi and Maul to be considerably greater Saber combatants than Opress.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Since you still believe Sidious wasn't toying around with the brothers you obviously will never see this,

There's just no reason to believe that. And Zero evidence.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
even with him saying 'he did better than the Council ever did' it doesn't make it false.

Of course it does. The statement wouldn't make any sense if Sidious held back on him.



Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Opress is nothing for Sidious' might. He would dispose of him in seconds. The same goes for Ventress. The only one who could give him a hard time is the Count. The other two pose no threat for him whatsoever.

The Count on his own has gone toe to toe with Yoda who clearly couldn't subdue him with any kind of ease.

Opress already put up a fight alongside a less powerful Sith Lord, so alongside a more powerful one as well as Ventress, I'm afraid this just becomes too much even for Sidious.

But I will give Sidious a chance if he can take out Ventress right at the start. But even then Dooku and Opress together will prove more than just a challenge.

Like you've already admitted, the Count himself can give Sidious a hard time. Having Opress there is Only going to make it more difficult for Sidious. It certainly won't make it easier.

And that's assuming he's taken Ventress out right at the start!

I said Dooku could give Sidious a hard time, but not necessarily.

And what do you mean he has gone toe-to-toe with Yoda?! Now you're claiming Dooku is as powerful as Yoda?

In AotC Dooku proved he had no chance against him.

I'll adress the rest of your comments later.

Irrelevant as Sidious doesn't want it with Yoda either in a swordfight.

Ventress and Savage are non-factors; Tyranus is destroyed after a mild battle.

Non-factors in a Force fight. Swordfight? There are three of them. That's five blades to defend against.

This group is slightly less formidable than Mace Windu's team, Sidious could pull it off. Yoda would have a bit more difficulty, but I think even Yoda could win. Satele Shan, The Starkiller Clone, and Mace Windu each could have a chance at soloing this group: that chance decreasing as listed.

Plagueis, mind you, was more powerful in combat than Palpatine as stated. Plagueis and Luke are at the very pinnacle of natural Force wielders...with Skywalker quite easily taking first place by FOTJ.

Then you have DE Sidious, Vitiate, Nihilus, the Ones, and Abeloth: increasing in power as listed. When Anakin achieved Oneness through Mortis, and/or through the Kaiburr Crystal in the Temple of Pumajima and/or through death as Vader, he's #1.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian


And what do you mean he has gone toe-to-toe with Yoda?!

Did you not see them fight in AOTC?

If Yoda could just easily subdue him, do you not think he would have done just that, given what was at stake?

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Now you're claiming Dooku is as powerful as Yoda?

In AotC Dooku proved he had no chance against him.

Nice attempt at twisting my words.

Quote me where I said "Dooku is Yoda's equal" or "Dooku had a chance at defeating Yoda." If you can't then I suggest you change your tune pal.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Non-factors in a Force fight. Swordfight? There are three of them. That's five blades to defend against.

This isn't arithmetic. Their superior numbers are diminished by his substantially greater power and skill. If Sidious were limited only to his sword, victory might be in question and would certainly take longer. But Savage and Asajj simply can't withstand his powers and Dooku is a mild challenge at best.

Sidious will defeat this strike team IMO.

@Darth Power

Yoda is a relatively passive combatant. His fighting approach and respect for Dooku prolonged the duel between them in Geonosis. In the big picture, Yoda was more interested in redeeming Dooku then killing him.

Jedi are typically not as aggressive as Sith Lords in combat situations:

No matter how dire circumstances may become, the Jedi Knight trusts the Force and keeps a cool head. Knowledge and self-control are the critical components of wise decisions, and emotional and mental clarity are an absolute necessity. Maintaining focus allows the Knight to rely on intuition; a right mind leads to right action. (SWTOR)

In contrast, Sidious is a Sith Lord and he will be very aggressive in his combat effort.

Sith Warriors crush their opponents and stride toward their goals with dreadful determination, leaving ruin and annihilation in their wake. (SWTOR)

------

While Dooku is a Sith Lord and Savage and Ventress are Dark Jedi, the team still lacks in strength to hang with Sidious. He may terminate Savage and Ventress early on and then proceed to subdue Dooku after some effort.

To be honest, Savage and Ventress cannot hang with elites in the mythos.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


@Darth Power

Yoda is a relatively passive combatant. His fighting approach and respect for Dooku prolonged the duel between them in Geonosis. In the big picture, Yoda was more interested in redeeming Dooku then killing him.

Jedi are typically not as aggressive as Sith Lords in combat situations:

No matter how dire circumstances may become, the Jedi Knight trusts the Force and keeps a cool head. Knowledge and self-control are the critical components of wise decisions, and emotional and mental clarity are an absolute necessity. Maintaining focus allows the Knight to rely on intuition; a right mind leads to right action. (SWTOR)

In contrast, Sidious is a Sith Lord and he will be very aggressive in his combat effort.

Sith Warriors crush their opponents and stride toward their goals with dreadful determination, leaving ruin and annihilation in their wake. (SWTOR)

I understand Sidious will be more aggressive against Dooku than Yoda was. Still if we're talking Sabers here, it's not just Dooku. It's Dooku, Opress and Ventress.

If we're talking in the Force, clearly Yoda couldn't have just levitated and subdued Dooku with any kind of ease or he would have. His plan was to capture him, he could try and convince him to give up the dark side later.

In fact there was no redeeming lecture in that fight.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
------

While Dooku is a Sith Lord and Savage and Ventress are Dark Jedi, the team still lacks in strength to hang with Sidious.

My issue with this is that Mace clearly had the strength to hang with Sidious. So are people here starting to claim now that Mace's Force powers are above Dooku's?

Because if not, then Dooku clearly can hang on his own. But here he actually has help. The 3 of these should completely overwhelm Sidious in Sabers and with Dooku on side Sidious won't just be finishing them with a force blast.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


To be honest, Savage and Ventress cannot hang with elites in the mythos.

Is Dooku not considered an elite anymore? Because Savage and Ventress together gave him quite a challenge.

And Savage and Maul together clearly "hanged" with Sidious for a while. (Unless your buying into this whole "Sidious was holding back" thing, but that would go against the quote you provided above.)

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ventress and Savage are non-factors; Tyranus is destroyed after a mild battle.

Yeah, that's what I said.



Oh, please. Zero evidence. So, not once during the endless arguing with Ascendancy, Nephthys, Tempest and myself did any of us provide evidence? You're in denial.





Yes, it would. Even with Sidious toying him, it can be noted he fought better. That's it. It doesn't mean anything else.




Evidenced by how easily Sidious killed Opress, your point is moot. He is a non-factor, and Sidious would dispose of him with ease. Ventress, like Opress, is nothing for Sidious. The problem here is that you still believe Sidious didn't toy with the brothers, and that is why there is no point in arguing this. We view the individual combat prowess of these characters with different eyes. Therefore, there is no way in which we will be in accordance with what will happen during this fight.



The question is: did you not see them fight in AotC?

If judging by that duel you're concluding Dooku was going 'toe-to-toe' against Yoda, you couldn't be more wrong. Give the fight a couple of more minutes and Dooku no chance to escape, and he would've ended up either surrendering to Yoda's superiority, or getting himself killed if he left Yoda with no other choice. Not once in the fight was Dooku even close to have the upper hand against Yoda, and he certainly wasn't going 'toe-to-toe' against him. It was quite clear who was the more powerful and more skilled of the two.




Twisting your words? And what exactly does going 'toe-to-toe' against an enemy mean? If going 'toe-to-toe' isn't suggesting two combatants are fighting on par against each other, then what is it, according to you?

Colonel, I have need of your services.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Colonel, I have need of your services.

Is there some sort of payment involved?

131


PM me.

Will do.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian


Oh, please. Zero evidence. So, not once during the endless arguing with Ascendancy, Nephthys, Tempest and myself did any of us provide evidence?


LOL You really didn't. It was quite astonishing actually. You provided quotes that proved he was superior, but no quotes or evidence relevant to the debate. Just speculation.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
You're in denial.
No your just don't like the fight Maul put up in Sabers so your grasping at straws in order to lowball his performance.





Originally posted by Col. Valerian

Yes, it would. Even with Sidious toying him, it can be noted he fought better. That's it. It doesn't mean anything else.

On what basis could we judge that if he was holding back? This is clear evidence how you guys brought nothing real to the table in that debate and literally just ignore all the canon sources that clearly suggest Sidious WAS NOT messing around.

Frankly it's pretty silly to even think that. He urgently left his office because he senses the threat Maul was creating. He went all alone to a planet ruled by Mandalorian warriors risking his identity and grand plans, because Maul was had become a threat.

And then your trying to suggest he decided to just do a cocky dance LOL.

Get real. Maul put up a good fight in Sabers but ultimately was no match for Sidious, even with the aid of his brother. End of.




Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Evidenced by how easily Sidious killed Opress, your point is moot.

That was in a one on one! And even that wasn't exactly a 3 second blitz.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
He is a non-factor,

Do you even know the meaning of non-factor? Clearly he was a factor when he knocked Sidious off that balcony. Clearly he was a factor when we see the fatigue and frustration on Sidoous's face after he floored Opress. So unless you think Sidious is going to knock out Dooku as easily as he did Maul with a Force push, Opress will continue to be a factor in this fight.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
and Sidious would dispose of him with ease. Ventress, like Opress, is nothing for Sidious.

Put them both together and they can challenge Count Dooku. Put Count Dooku on their side and you better believe Sidious is in trouble.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
The problem here is that you still believe Sidious didn't toy with the brothers, and that is why there is no point in arguing this. We view the individual combat prowess of these characters with different eyes. Therefore, there is no way in which we will be in accordance with what will happen during this fight.

Yeah but it's your problem because your the one not accepting the fight that was given. So either provide clear proof that shows the fight given in the T-Canon show was all just an act, or stop bringing it to versus threads, which was my whole point in the first place.

Because otherwise this is going to be an ongoing problem that will come up in every Maul and Opress versus thread.





Originally posted by Col. Valerian
The question is: did you not see them fight in AotC?

If judging by that duel you're concluding Dooku was going 'toe-to-toe' against Yoda, you couldn't be more wrong. Give the fight a couple of more minutes and Dooku no chance to escape, and he would've ended up either surrendering to Yoda's superiority, or getting himself killed if he left Yoda with no other choice. Not once in the fight was Dooku even close to have the upper hand against Yoda, and he certainly wasn't going 'toe-to-toe' against him. It was quite clear who was the more powerful and more skilled of the two.

Whoaaa.. I never said Dooku ever had the upper hand or that he had a chance of winning. But we did see him go toe to toe with him. They had a force fight and a Saber fight. And it's not like Yoda simply pinned him to the wall, or floored and disarmed him in the Lightsaber fight. I have no doubt if the fight continued that Dooku would have lost. But as long as the fight lasted he did go toe to toe with Yoda.






Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Twisting your words? And what exactly does going 'toe-to-toe' against an enemy mean? If going 'toe-to-toe' isn't suggesting two combatants are fighting on par against each other, then what is it, according to you?

Going toe to toe doesn't necessarily mean either combatant can win. It just means he was able to fight him on evenish terms for a short time. He never had a chance of winning.

Originally posted by Dolos
This group is slightly less formidable than Mace Windu's team, Sidious could pull it off. Yoda would have a bit more difficulty, but I think even Yoda could win. Satele Shan, The Starkiller Clone, and Mace Windu each could have a chance at soloing this group: that chance decreasing as listed.


There's no way in hell Satele Shan, Starkiller, or Mace Windu can pull off a victory here. Especially not Mace. Mace has been stated by multiple sources multiple times to be Dooku's equal. Maybe. Dooku with back up will curbstomp Mace.

Windu likely couldn't win, Satale certainly couldn't, but I do think Starkiller could pull it off.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Mace has been stated by multiple sources multiple times to be Dooku's equal. Maybe. Dooku with back up will curbstomp Mace.



Not sure why on these boards Dooku has all of a sudden been relegated to a level where he is no longer a challenge or any kind of serious threat for Sidious.

I'm assuming it's because of Sidious's performance against Maul and Opress. But not sure why that means Dooku wouldn't fair better considering his Force Powers are far superior to Maul's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Windu likely couldn't win, Satale certainly couldn't, but I do think Starkiller could pull it off.

I really doubt it. I can't see Starkiller being able to OHKO any one of them ala TK without getting saber molested by Dooku and Savage. 3 opponents is a lot of anyone. And Starkiller has not the saber prowess to take on the three of them.

Consider the Sith Emperor Vitiate. Awesome force prowess, would have extreme difficulty with the Exile, Revan, and Scourge. I consider Starkiller to be a similar beast to Vitiate.

I do not believe that he can off Ventress or Savage without ending up speared through the chest with a saber. He lacks the speed feats and the saber feats to fight 3 powerful opponents. Maybe if he used Jar'Kai. But otherwise there's just no way.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I really doubt it. I can't see Starkiller being able to OHKO any one of them ala TK without getting saber molested by Dooku and Savage. 3 opponents is a lot of anyone. And Starkiller has not the saber prowess to take on the three of them.

Consider the Sith Emperor Vitiate. Awesome force prowess, would have extreme difficulty with the Exile, Revan, and Scourge. I consider Starkiller to be a similar beast to Vitiate.

I do not believe that he can off Ventress or Savage without ending up speared through the chest with a saber. He lacks the speed feats and the saber feats to fight 3 powerful opponents. Maybe if he used Jar'Kai. But otherwise there's just no way.

I don't think Savage or Ventress can stand against Starkillers Force attacks without being overwhelmed. The Starkiller Clones Force powers are incredible.

Vitiate was still capable of easily overwhelming 4 of the greatest Jedi of the TOR-era, including the Hero of Tython who Satale names as the greatest champion of the Order soon after. Starkiller could replicate this with Savage and Ventress at the least. He does not need to deal with them with his lightsaber imo.

The Clone does use Jar'Kai.

Originally posted by Nephthys I don't think Savage or Ventress can stand against Starkillers Force attacks without being overwhelmed. The Starkiller Clones Force powers are incredible.
I doubt that he'll have the opening, or the speed to take them down before getting slaughtered. Take, Dooku, the guy is a force monster, and can OHKO people but only because he also has the saber chops to back it up. Starkiller does not. He lacks the saber prowess to fend off 2 opponents one of which is vastly his superior in the area of dueling, while offing another with TK.
They won't have to if Dooku's pressuring him with sabers. That's the thing. I don't think Starkiller will last long at all against Dooku



This is a terrible example. Tol Braga is the only one of note who he defeated because he fought a Dark Council member for 5 days. The Hero of Tython was weaker than he is in the final confrontation...but he did defeat Darth Angral which is pretty good. The other two are featless knights, they weren't even masters they were hardly "the greatest Jedi of the TOR era".
You speak as though he defeated Satele Shan, Jaric Kaedan, the maxed Hero fo Tython, and the Barsen'thor at the same time. Those would be the greatest Jedi of the TOR era.



Yes, but to what level. Could he hold back Dooku and Savage while force pwning Ventress. I doubt it. The diversion of focus for even a split second against a monster like Dooku will mean certain death.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I doubt that he'll have the opening, or the speed to take them down before getting slaughtered. Take, Dooku, the guy is a force monster, and can OHKO people but only because he also has the saber chops to back it up. Starkiller does not. He lacks the saber prowess to fend off 2 opponents one of which is vastly his superior in the area of dueling, while offing another with TK.
They won't have to if Dooku's pressuring him with sabers. That's the thing. I don't think Starkiller will last long at all against Dooku

None of the team is fast enough to really close the gap before Starkiller can unleash his Force Powers. You're also underestimating Starkiller's lightsaber abilities, as per the first games description his skills were 'near perfect', and he was able to outduel Vader and Shaak Ti. Dooku is by no means his vast superior. Starkiller is also adept at using hie Force powers in combat and has in every duel he's been in. In his fight with Shaak Ti he was able to telekinetically block her lightsaber while engaging her.

What if he simply uses a Force Repulse at the start of the fight? That would force the team back or into a defensive position long enough for him to start really bringing his abilities to bare imo.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
This is a terrible example. Tol Braga is the only one of note who he defeated because he fought a Dark Council member for 5 days. The Hero of Tython was weaker than he is in the final confrontation...but he did defeat Darth Angral which is pretty good. The other two are featless knights, they weren't even masters they were hardly "the greatest Jedi of the TOR era".
You speak as though he defeated Satele Shan, Jaric Kaedan, the maxed Hero fo Tython, and the Barsen'thor at the same time. Those would be the greatest Jedi of the TOR era.

Sorry, but the Jedi Knight Act II exposition/loading screen claims that Tol Braga's team is made up of the 'greatest Jedi in the galaxy.'

The Hero of Tython was still powerful enough to defeat Lord Scourge and has at the time also defeated Guardsman Lassicar, who 'has personally executed six Jedi and over two dozen Sith Lords', Lord Praven who 'During the Sacking of Coruscant, Lord Praven killed Master Usma--one of the Jedi's most famous duelists' and Bengal Marr, who defeated Ordus Din, the Jedi with the most battle experience in the entire Order.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes, but to what level. Could he hold back Dooku and Savage while force pwning Ventress. I doubt it. The diversion of focus for even a split second against a monster like Dooku will mean certain death.

Dooku is hardly a monster. He is a skilled combatant, but hardly an overwhelming presence. I think Starkiller could possibly do it, yes.

Does the appellation of greatest necessarily mean they were the best fighters or strongest Force users?

When you're assembling a team for a fight, I assume you recruit based upon their fighting capabilities, not their skill at Jedi Opera.

I'm looking for the specific wording now, it might take some time.

Well Braga was renowned for his pacifism and philosophy rather than combat prowess, if I recall correctly.

I only ask because we have ruthlessly questioned that particular adjective in the past.

Which doesn't rule out his abilities, which we learn from his apprentice are formidable. He was specifically going to capture the greatest Sith in the galaxy, he would have chosen the strongest Jed he could, which is backed up by the title screen.

Ah **** it. I can't find it and none of the walkthroughs on youtube show the title screen. If anyone can find it, its the title screen that comes up when you load your character. You should have asked me when I was still on act 2.

I'm not making an argument (indeed, I agree with you), I'm simply pointing out that there have been multi-page debates over that word in the past.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which doesn't rule out his abilities, which we learn from his apprentice are formidable. He was specifically going to capture the greatest Sith in the galaxy, he would have chosen the strongest Jed he could, which is backed up by the title screen.

Ah **** it. I can't find it and none of the walkthroughs on youtube show the title screen. If anyone can find it, its the title screen that comes up when you load your character. You should have asked me when I was still on act 2.
This;

With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a stike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the Order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side. The Jedi did not realize that they have underestimated the true extent of Emperor's power. It is an error that will cost them dearly. (Star Wars The Old Republic Encylopedia; page 88)



------

As far as Satele Shan is concerned, I think she can handle this trio in combat. Count Dooku is the only individual who will giver her challenge. Ventress and Savage are strong in the dark side but they considerably lack in command of the Force.

That isn't the quote I was looking for but it is much appreciated and reinforces the point two-fold.

Originally posted by Nephthys
None of the team is fast enough to really close the gap before Starkiller can unleash his Force Powers. You're also underestimating Starkiller's lightsaber abilities, as per the first games description his skills were 'near perfect', and he was able to outduel Vader and Shaak Ti. Dooku is by no means his vast superior. Starkiller is also adept at using hie Force powers in combat and has in every duel he's been in. In his fight with Shaak Ti he was able to telekinetically block her lightsaber while engaging her.

Dooku certainly is fast enough. If he is fast enough to tango with Yoda, he's more than fast enough to tango with Starkiller. Uhhh I was under the impression that Vader was his superior in sabers and he lost due to Force powers. And Shaak Ti almost killed him.


Dooku would likely recover very quickly and engage him before his two peyons could be offed.


A very general term. There are 10,000+ Jedi in the Galaxy. Anywhere in the top 100 would likely be considered amongst the greatest. Those Jedi are featless. And what's more they are not even masters so in all likelihood they aren't even in the top 100.




All the Jedi at the Sacking of Coruscant were the Jedi's B team though. The Jedi's A team was at Alderaan as per canon. That's why the Sith struck Coruscant when they did, remember? Ordus Din is amongst that group, and all of that baseless hype he recieves in game doesn't make up for the fact that he gets his shit wrecked by Darth Angral everytime they meet.



You're grossly underestimating Dooku.
"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground..."
That statement puts Dooku slightly above Windu. He is way more than a skilled combatant, he took down three assassins while drugged and blind. He is confirmed to be>>Maul since he is his replacement.
He's been hyped to have bladework on the level of Yoda, formidable TK. I don't see how he would not give Starkiller a hard time WITHOUT Savage and Ventress, throw in one and he'll likely win, let alone two.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This;

With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a stike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the Order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side. The Jedi did not realize that they have underestimated the true extent of Emperor's power. It is an error that will cost them dearly. (Star Wars The Old Republic Encylopedia; page 88)



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As far as Satele Shan is concerned, I think she can handle this trio in combat. Count Dooku is the only individual who will giver her challenge. Ventress and Savage are strong in the dark side but they considerably lack in command of the Force.

Count Dooku would solo Satele Shan. Also Braga's team is not the strongest in the Galaxy. This is pretty clear from the fact that A. Only knights are in it. B. Satele Shan who is stated to be the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy isn't in it. C. Jaric Kaedan the man who solo'd the Dread Masters isn't in it.

Those statements "assembled a team of the greatest Jedi" Are pretty weak arguments. Let's not forget that Mace's team was comprised of the most celebrated swordsman in the order. That doesn't magically put them on the level of Kenobi and Skywalker though.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He is confirmed to be>>Maul since he is his replacement.

I agree with the rest of your post but I'm not sure about this logic. Dooku's replacement was already decided - Skywalker. And Dooku fit Sidious's current plan. So there was just no room for Maul to fit in now.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Those statements "assembled a team of the greatest Jedi" Are pretty weak arguments. Let's not forget that Mace's team was comprised of the most celebrated swordsman in the order. That doesn't magically put them on the level of Kenobi and Skywalker though.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dooku certainly is fast enough. If he is fast enough to tango with Yoda, he's more than fast enough to tango with Starkiller. Uhhh I was under the impression that Vader was his superior in sabers and he lost due to Force powers. And Shaak Ti almost killed him.

He is indeed fast enough to tango with him, but I just don't think he's fast enough to close the gap before Starkiller can use his Force powers.

Starkiller overcomes him in lightsaber combat in both the novel and the game. Shaak Ti only did that by putting everything into speed and abandoning defense, practically skewering herself on his lightsaber. And Starkiller still had the reflexes to block her lightsaber just before it went into his eye.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dooku would likely recover very quickly and engage him before his two peyons could be offed.

This is where this comes down to purely subjective feeling. Theres not really a way we can debate this to be honest.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
A very general term. There are 10,000+ Jedi in the Galaxy. Anywhere in the top 100 would likely be considered amongst the greatest. Those Jedi are featless. And what's more they are not even masters so in all likelihood they aren't even in the top 100.

Well then its lucky that Legends quote backs it up by proclaiming them to also be 'a stike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the Order'. I think being proclaimed as the 'greatest' and 'strongest' Jedi in the Order is sufficient chops not to dismiss their utter curbstomp by Vitiate.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
All the Jedi at the Sacking of Coruscant were the Jedi's B team though. The Jedi's A team was at Alderaan as per canon. That's why the Sith struck Coruscant when they did, remember? Ordus Din is amongst that group, and all of that baseless hype he recieves in game doesn't make up for the fact that he gets his shit wrecked by Darth Angral everytime they meet.

No, I don't remember that. I know some Jedi attended the Alderaan Peace Summit, but not that there was no-one note-worthy on Coruscant at the time. If Praven's bio says that the guy was a notable duelist then thats who he was. Remember that this was during wartime, so its a safe assumption the guy had proven his abilities.

Which only makes Darth Angral look impressive, not Din unimpressive.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You're grossly underestimating Dooku.
"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground..."
That statement puts Dooku slightly above Windu. He is way more than a skilled combatant, he took down three assassins while drugged and blind. He is confirmed to be>>Maul since he is his replacement.
He's been hyped to have bladework on the level of Yoda, formidable TK. I don't see how he would not give Starkiller a hard time WITHOUT Savage and Ventress, throw in one and he'll likely win, let alone two.

It does not such thing. It indicates that they are equals. And yes I know that Dooku is a dangerous opponent, but because of his precise bladework, his mastery of the Force and martial prowess. He isn't an overpowering monster as you make him out to be. He relies upon skill and mastery in fights, not power and speed.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
A very general term. There are 10,000+ Jedi in the Galaxy. Anywhere in the top 100 would likely be considered amongst the greatest. Those Jedi are featless. And what's more they are not even masters so in all likelihood they aren't even in the top 100.




Count Dooku would solo Satele Shan.


What does the fact that they're not Masters have to do with anything? Being a Master does not = being more powerful. Of course they have to be powerful, but not necessarily more powerful. Anakin was a Jedi Knight during RotS, and he was already way more powerful than most Jedi Masters in the Order.

And it's hard to tell if Dooku would indeed be able to solo Shan. I doubt it. Dooku's powerful, but Shen was 'the most powerful Jedi' of the ToR era, and considering there were thousands of Jedi, it is a pretty strong statement that should not be turned aside.

I'm picking up what you're laying down, bro, but I think the prevailing assumption is that your average Master is going to be more powerful, more skilled, and more learned in the ways of the Force than your average Knight.

There would obviously be exceptions. I've always concluded Anakin's lack of promotion owes more to his attitude and reputation. On the other hand, Obi-Wan does mention that "power alone is no credit to " when determining who sits on the High Council (which makes sense, given that leadership should be determined by a number of factors unrelated to combat skill). On the hand, I believe The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia mentions that the Jedi Council consists of the order's most powerful Masters.

Ah, well.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm picking up what you're laying down, bro, but I think the prevailing assumption is that your average Master is going to be more powerful, more skilled, and more learned in the ways of the Force than your average Knight.

There would obviously be exceptions. I've always concluded Anakin's lack of promotion owes more to his attitude and reputation. On the other hand, Obi-Wan does mention that "power alone is no credit to " when determining who sits on the High Council (which makes sense, given that leadership should be determined by a number of factors unrelated to combat skill). On the hand, I believe The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia mentions that the Jedi Council consists of the order's most powerful Masters.

Ah, well.

Exactly, as you said, your average Master is going to be more powerful, more skilled and more learned.

But, it is said these where the "strongest and most resolute Jedi in the Order". Certainly not your average Knights by any means, which renders Mizukage's argument that they "were not even Masters" pointless.

And I completely agree with you with the rest of what you said.

Right, right, I was just reinforcing the greater point. These guys could very well be exceptions.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
What does the fact that they're not Masters have to do with anything? Being a Master does not = being more powerful. Of course they have to be powerful, but not necessarily more powerful. Anakin was a Jedi Knight during RotS, and he was already way more powerful than most Jedi Masters in the Order.

That's a red herring. Anakin even notes how unusual his situation is. Skywalker also has the feats to back up his claim. You know like putting Count Dooku on his ass multiple times.


What sort of pitiful, disjointed logic is that. I don't understand why you guys are okay with operating under these unquantifiable statements made in the databooks. Dooku is stated to be top tier by Yoda himself.
"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."

^You know the same Yoda who's trained thousands of Jedi, including greats like Mace Windu.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He is indeed fast enough to tango with him, but I just don't think he's fast enough to close the gap before Starkiller can use his Force powers.
You think Starkiller is faster than Yoda?

Wut? In the game he smashes him with gigantic pillars before he overcomes him in saber combat.


Fair enough. But at the same time consider Dooku's performances against Yoda, the most powerful Jedi up to that point in history. No way Starkiller does better than Yoda.




That statement is clearly hyperbole. Unless you consider Tol Braga and his peyons more powerful than the Grand Master of the Jedi order and Jaric Kaedan who brought the dreadmasters to justice.




'Not important enough to go to Alderaan Jedi'
And several other statements make it clear that the Jedi on Coruscant were the B team.



Fair.





There is no one, no one Jedi or Sith who can tango with the likes of Yoda and Sidious who aren't top tier in speed. Period.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That's a red herring. Anakin even notes how unusual his situation is. Skywalker also has the feats to back up his claim. You know like putting Count Dooku on his ass multiple times.

That's not the point. As Neph pointed out, a lot more is taken into consideration when a Knight is given the rank of Master, not just the individual's power or skill, such as attitude, maturity, self-control, etc.

I bet you can find a lot of Knights who are the exception to the rule of Masters being more powerful, not just Anakin, if you dig a little deeper.




So it's pitiful to deduce that since she is the most powerful out of an Order of thousands of Jedi, she has at the very least considerable skill and powers to be reckoned with? Based on what we know of her, she can't be just tossed aside when comparing her with the likes of Dooku or other PT Jedi just because Dooku has feats we know of and she hasn't (as of yet).

And what now? Is Yoda the omniscient narrator? That's purely subjective; a character's point of view. Besides, the term greatest, although indeed suggestive of a certain degree of power, doesn't necessarily mean most powerful.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Count Dooku would solo Satele Shan.
One of the Sith Order's greatest warriors couldn't solo her whom even Sidious regarded as a role model for Vader to follow and you think that Count would solo her? She became the Grand Jedi Master in an age when prodigiously talented individuals weren't uncommon. Think.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also Braga's team is not the strongest in the Galaxy.
In this strike team, all individuals were one of the finest warriors in Jedi Order. This is canonically implied.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
This is pretty clear from the fact that A. Only knights are in it.
Bro, you apparently forgot that Tol Braga himself was part of this team; he formed it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
B. Satele Shan who is stated to be the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy isn't in it. C. Jaric Kaedan the man who solo'd the Dread Masters isn't in it.
They weren't but Hero of Tython was in it. And this guy is an A-lister.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Those statements "assembled a team of the greatest Jedi" Are pretty weak arguments. Let's not forget that Mace's team was comprised of the most celebrated swordsman in the order. That doesn't magically put them on the level of Kenobi and Skywalker though.
Well, such statements do not imply that their won't be others who aren't as good or better.

However, this was a very potent strike team. Though Vitiate demonstrated that how good he was, when in good shape. Vitiate is a top-tier Force-wielder in the whole mythos alongside Sidious and Luke.

One of the Sith Order's greatest warriors couldn't solo her whom even Sidious regarded as a role model for Vader to follow and you think that Count would solo her? She became the Grand Jedi Master in an age when prodigiously talented individuals weren't uncommon.
Malgus disarmed her rather easily. She won only because absorbed lightsaber energy gave her boost to overpower him, which is quite circumstantial. Not the fact that the same trick would work with Dooku.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
That's not the point. As Neph pointed out, a lot more is taken into consideration when a Knight is given the rank of Master, not just the individual's power or skill, such as attitude, maturity, self-control, etc.

Clearly, but you also need to note that those situations are extremities and have always been noted. Anakin for example was noted for being on the Council but not being a master. Ki-Adi, similar situation. Both of which were skilled and powerful duelists.



Anakin, Ki-Adi Mundi...that's about it. And I'm not just talking about your run of the mill masters. I am talking about Jedi Council masters.





No it's pitiful to deduce that Satele Shan is more powerful than someone who is noted to be one of the most powerful Jedi in history, and went on to become an even more powerful Sith. Yoda trained Jedi for 800 years and puts Dooku as his greatest pupil.

The Dooku underestimation on these boards is obscene. Satele is noted as a prodigy, and compared to Bastilla and Revan in prowess. But never is she stated to be more powerful or even as powerful as the likes of Revan or the Sith Emperor.



Selective reading much?
"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."

Yoda isn't an omniscient narrator, but he's the most powerful and learned Jedi in history. His opinion holds a shit ton greater weight than yours does on matters of power levels. Dooku leaving the order was such a big deal because he was one of the greatest students of the force the Jedi Order had produced in the history of ever.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
One of the Sith Order's greatest warriors couldn't solo her whom even Sidious regarded as a role model for Vader to follow and you think that Count would solo her? She became the Grand Jedi Master in an age when prodigiously talented individuals weren't uncommon. Think.
Malgus was hardly in his prime yet, and he had her on her hands and knees until Jace Malcom intervened. Sure there were tons of talented individuals, but that can be said for every era of Star Wars. Also don't forget the PT is hailed as the Golden Age of the Jedi.



So what? Mace Windu's team was comprised of some of the most celebrated blademasters in the order's golden age. That is greater hype than being 'some of the finest warriors' in the order.



I am well aware. Braga is the only one on that team with feats sans the Hero of Tython.


Hero of Tython, yes. Other 2? No.




When have I ever denied Vitiate is top tier? He's up there with Sidious and Yoda force wise. Luke is way too much of a stretch though.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Dooku underestimation on these boards is obscene.

Preach it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Anakin, Ki-Adi Mundi...that's about it. And I'm not just talking about your run of the mill masters. I am talking about Jedi Council masters.

Oh, come on. You can do better than that.





And when exactly did I ever say that Shan is more powerful than Dooku? I am merely pointing that she is not to be simply tossed aside in terms of power and skill, and that the fact that she could put up a good fight has to be considered.




So since it's never stated you're just assuming she isn't? It doesn't need to be stated for us to consider her powerful.




In history? You mean up until Luke comes along, correct?

And no, his opinion does not necessarily hold so much weight. Quoting Kreia (KotoR II):

"If you were to battle an old Sith Lord in a lightsaber duel, you would find that we're only children playing with toys compared to the Dark Lords of the Ancient Sith Empire."

Are you going to tell me Kreia isn't a knowledgeable, wise, and learned character? She is. Would you agree with her statement? I'm willing to say you're not. It's pretty much the same situation.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Oh, come on. You can do better than that.
Of course, like Revan and the hero of Tython. The point is that every single one of those instances has been noted. At no point in the series have those to knights been noted for being special in anyway.





We can agree on that then.




So since it's never stated you're just assuming she isn't? It doesn't need to be stated for us to consider her powerful.





Naturally, although Yoda will remain in my eyes the most wise Jedi the order will ever produce.

Uhh I don't really see much of a problem with this statement. In fact the Exile pretty much confirmed this when he dueled a Sith from the remnants of the Ancient Sith Empire (Darth Nyriss) and got her shit wrecked even with Scourge backing her up.




Not at all. The only duelists of note in the known galaxy at that time were the Exile, Kreia, Nihilus, Sion, and the 3 Masters. None of them could hold a candle to say, Darth Nyriss with a blade.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda


Uhh I don't really see much of a problem with this statement. In fact the Exile pretty much confirmed this when he dueled a Sith from the remnants of the Ancient Sith Empire (Darth Nyriss) and got her shit wrecked even with Scourge backing her up.


The only thing is that is discussed in other threads, that specific blurb by Kreia is stated to be unconfirmed, as the timeline seems to imply that the Sith had not even begun using sabers at that point. Not arguing that the duelists then weren't great, especially since during that period the Sith and Jedi were in a pretty constant state of war in some form or another. Just saying that area of canon is pretty ambiguous and has never been given any full confirmation.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
The only thing is that is discussed in other threads, that specific blurb by Kreia is stated to be unconfirmed, as the timeline seems to imply that the Sith had not even begun using sabers at that point. Not arguing that the duelists then weren't great, especially since during that period the Sith and Jedi were in a pretty constant state of war in some form or another. Just saying that area of canon is pretty ambiguous and has never been given any full confirmation.

I don't see the discussion. The Lords of Naga Sadow's Empire had lightsabers. That same Empire that is present in the current TOR storyline. The bladesmasters of this Empire have indeed proven to be superior to the likes of the Exile and her crew. By a good margin at that.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I don't see the discussion. The Lords of Naga Sadow's Empire had lightsabers. That same Empire that is present in the current TOR storyline. The bladesmasters of this Empire have indeed proven to be superior to the likes of the Exile and her crew. By a good margin at that.

There was some gap in time between the old Empire and it's reemergence in TOR, plenty of time for the quality of different aspects of their skills to change.

The old Empire's Sith barely dueled with sabers in the comics they've shown up in, sorcery looked to play a much larger role in their conflicts.

And Revan seemed to be a match for anyone in TOR Empire save for the Emperor.

Originally posted by Q99
There was some gap in time between the old Empire and it's reemergence in TOR, plenty of time for the quality of different aspects of their skills to change.

The old Empire's Sith barely dueled with sabers in the comics they've shown up in, sorcery looked to play a much larger role in their conflicts.

And Revan seemed to be a match for anyone in TOR Empire save for the Emperor.

Revan wasn't included in that statement. And we never saw how he'd last against Nyriss in a saber battle. We just know he can wtf pwn her with the force.

Uliq Qel'Droma and Exar Kun were also mere Jedi Knights. The Jedi Path makes it clear that becoming a Jedi Master is more about responsibility than power, with most elevated after they take on a padawan.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You think Starkiller is faster than Yoda?

No? But he doesn't need to be to be capable to using the Force in the time it takes Dooku to run up to him and start swinging. Just saying, all he has to do is raise his ****ing hand.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Wut? In the game he smashes him with gigantic pillars before he overcomes him in saber combat.

But he still beats him in lightsaber combat. Them also using the Force on each other doesn't preclude that Starkiller legitimately beat him with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Fair enough. But at the same time consider Dooku's performances against Yoda, the most powerful Jedi up to that point in history. No way Starkiller does better than Yoda.

This is why ABC logic doesn't work. Different characters have different strengths and weaknesses. Starkiller has much better offensive Force powers than Yoda and I think he can use it to overpower Ventress and Savage or keep his Dooku at bay.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That statement is clearly hyperbole. Unless you consider Tol Braga and his peyons more powerful than the Grand Master of the Jedi order and Jaric Kaedan who brought the dreadmasters to justice.

No it isn't. What about indicates hyperbole? I'm not saying they are the absolute strongest, only that they rank up among the strongest members of the Order at that time. Warren Sedoru was 'already one of the most acclaimed Jedi Knights of the order when the Sith Empire attacked the Republic at Korriban. He was one of the first Jedi to lead a counterattack against Imperial forces and scored several early victories against them.' And Leeha Narezz was a warrior who "never knew failure." Theres no reason to doubt that these guy really were elite Jedi other than preconceived notions about other combatants.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
'Not important enough to go to Alderaan Jedi'
And several other statements make it clear that the Jedi on Coruscant were the B team.

Where does that come from?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
There is no one, no one Jedi or Sith who can tango with the likes of Yoda and Sidious who aren't top tier in speed. Period.

Even with a speed boost on Vjun Dooku lost to Yoda. Theres nothing indicating Dooku is as fast as Yoda is, merely that he is close enough to fight him without being blitzed.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."

Yoda isn't an omniscient narrator, but he's the most powerful and learned Jedi in history. His opinion holds a shit ton greater weight than yours does on matters of power levels. Dooku leaving the order was such a big deal because he was one of the greatest students of the force the Jedi Order had produced in the history of ever.



Originally posted by Nephthys
No? But he doesn't need to be to be capable to using the Force in the time it takes Dooku to run up to him and start swinging. Just saying, all he has to do is raise his ****ing hand.

Is that all he really has to do?

I mean in theory it makes sense. But practically, did he win any fight like that? And the majority of his opponents were considerably less powerful than Dooku in the Force.

He doesn't need to overpower Dooku, just his two accomplices.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uliq Qel'Droma and Exar Kun were also mere Jedi Knights. The Jedi Path makes it clear that becoming a Jedi Master is more about responsibility than power, with most elevated after they take on a padawan.

Again these are special cases. Noted several times within the mythos.



Right but it takes time to force pwn someone. In that time Dooku would close the distance. Dooku alone would likely give Starkiller more trouble than Vader ever did.




Bull. Vader was crushed several times, had a reactor thrown at him before Starkiller could best him in sabers.



I dunno about much better. And I doubt Starkiller could give Ventress the treatment Yoda did.



It says a strike team of the strongest. That implies that Strike team>Anyone else in the order, which is clear hyperbole.



Star Wars: The Old Republic, Threat of Peace Act 1: Treaty of Coruscant




Precisely. If he cannot be blitzed by Yoda, no way is he going to be blitzed by Starkiller.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He doesn't need to overpower Dooku, just his two accomplices.



Well he does unless Dooku is just going to stand there and let him take them out.

Also it's not like Opress is so weak in the Force that he'll get taken out with one wave.

Remember Opress and Ventress together were challenging Dooku. Over here we have Dooku, Opress and Ventress. That's a pretty difficult team to beat even for the top elite.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

I dunno about much better. And I doubt Starkiller could give Ventress the treatment Yoda did.





And we don't even know if Yoda could do that to Ventress while fighting off Dooku and Opress. Especially seen as Ventress grew more powerful since Yoda did that to her, to the point where Sidious was concerned about a possible team up of Dooku and Ventress.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And we don't even know if Yoda could do that to Ventress while fighting off Dooku and Opress. Especially seen as Ventress grew more powerful since Yoda did that to her, to the point where Sidious was concerned about a possible team up of Dooku and Ventress.

A very fair point.
Thus my point if Sidious was concerned about Dooku + Ventress. I'd imagine Dooku + Ventress + Savage would be a massive challenge for him.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Again these are special cases. Noted several times within the mythos.

So why can't the strike team be a special occasion too?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Right but it takes time to force pwn someone. In that time Dooku would close the distance. Dooku alone would likely give Starkiller more trouble than Vader ever did.

Does it? Starkiller force pwns Kazdan Paratus in the novel pretty fast. If you can break through your opponents barriers then you can take them down.

I doubt it. Vader is in my mind a superior combatant to Dooku.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Bull. Vader was crushed several times, had a reactor thrown at him before Starkiller could best him in sabers.

Wait, first game or second? First game, he was crushed before, sure, but in the novel Galen beats him with his lightsaber before he levitates him and smacks him with stuff including the reactor.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I dunno about much better. And I doubt Starkiller could give Ventress the treatment Yoda did.

Yoda has stated that he doesn't believe in offensively using the Force and indeed rarely attacks with it. And why? Starkiller is incredibly powerful. While I don't think the whole frigate disintegration is canon, he is still powerful enough to be Yoda's equal in terms of raw Force powers.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It says a strike team of the strongest. That implies that Strike team>Anyone else in the order, which is clear hyperbole.

It isn't hyperbole, as it obviously isn't an obvious exaggeration or figure of speech. Furthermore, its supported by the Act II title screen which calls them the greatest Jedi in the Order. One statement by itself might be able to be dismissed as hyperbole, but two independent statements that support itself make for a good basis in facts. Why can't they be the strongest members of the Order? Because Satale Shan isn't a member? Big whoop, girl does **** all through out the whole game, theres nothing indicating shes really all that.

Even if it is, it still proves that the members are among the greatest and strongest Jedi at the time, and as such cannot be dismissed as fodder.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Star Wars: The Old Republic, Threat of Peace Act 1: Treaty of Coruscant

Ok, well all that indicates is that the guy wasn't important, not that he was weak. All that matters is that the codex calls him one of the Jedis most famous duelists.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Precisely. If he cannot be blitzed by Yoda, no way is he going to be blitzed by Starkiller.

Did I ever say he was going to be blitzed by Starkiller? No, all I said was that I didn't think Dooku could blitz him while he's fighting the other two.

Originally posted by Nephthys



Yoda has stated that he doesn't believe in offensively using the Force and indeed rarely attacks with it.

Where's he stated this?

In an obscure little source called Empire Strikes Back. :I

'A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack.'

^ I don't think he was specifically talking about Force TK attacks tbh. He was just explaining to Luke the Jedi's general philosophy regarding combat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So why can't the strike team be a special occasion too?
I am not saying they can't I am saying that there is no proof supporting it other than two rather obscure, general statements. Aayla Secura could likely be counted amongst the strongest of the PT order, but she'd get shitstoped by Sidious' pinky finger.




Force pwning one Jedi is not the same as force pwning someone while fending off two opponents.


I disagree. Post-ROTS Vader has never been hyped to have bladeswork on the level of people like ROTS Kenobi, Dooku, or Windu. Unless you think he got a powerboost after Mustafar, there's no way you could rank Vader above Dooku.


Game I think is the highest canon. In game he slaps him around then defeats him ala lightsaber.



"Destroy the Sith we must." Yoda may not believe in the use of the force for offense in usual circumstances. But he has his moments. Close to Yoda? Sure. Equal to or superior to? No.
I think that though non-canon, the DS ending of TFU gives a pretty good depiction of what would happen with Starkiller vs. a serious Palpatine. And let me tell you, Yoda would give him the same treatment if he has the SOM he had against Sidious.





Because there is 1 Jedi Council Member on that strike team. It's an unquantifable statement. There's no way you're going to convince me that those Jedi were more powerful than say, Satele, Kaedan, or the Barsen'thor.


Yes they can. They are featless. They have no one to be scaled to.


The point of the Sacking of Coruscant was that the Republics best and strongest fighters were at Alderaan.



Dooku-Savage-Ventress run towards Starkiller to engage him. Starkiller lifts up Ventress or Savage. By the time he ragdolls them. Dooku and one of his apprentices will be up on him. And if the pins Ventress and Savage, Dooku will dice him to pieces before he can finish KOing them.

Originally posted by axel_jovan

All in all I see the team winning 6/10.

I'd make that 9/10 if your talking about Marek. Heck I'd even give them a good 7 against Sidious.

Too many Sabers. And Dooku is formidable enough on his own. And Opress and Ventress are not exactly Tiin, Kolar and Fisto.

^ Yeah, perhaps 8/10 for the team is more like it, given that Dooku by himself will be a hard fight.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No it's pitiful to deduce that Satele Shan is more powerful than someone who is noted to be one of the most powerful Jedi in history, and went on to become an even more powerful Sith. Yoda trained Jedi for 800 years and puts Dooku as his greatest pupil.
This quote:

"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure." (Yoda)

-implies that Count Dooku was possibly the most gifted pupil in a span of generations that Yoda had trained during his tenure as a Jedi Master.

However, this is more likely a subjective opinion of Yoda because Anakin should be logically the most gifted pupil whom Yoda met in life, if not trained directly.

So should we assume that Dooku was the most gifted pupil in the history of the Jedi Order when Yoda isn't in the position to determine this?

Now coming towards Dooku wanking in ROTS novelization;

He was one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history, yet at the age of seventy Dooku's principles would no longer allow him to serve a Republic in which political power was for sale to the highest bidder.

What this statement affirms is that Dooku is among the strongest Jedi in history. However, their is difference between "among the strongest" and "the strongest."

This information doesn't rejects the possibility that their may have been Jedi in history who surpassed Count Dooku in power.

Now coming towards the Sith Lord part:

This is Dooku, Darth Tyranus, Count of Serenno: Once a great Jedi Master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith, Dooku is a dark colossus bestriding the galaxy.

This statement offers ambiquous message. As evident from the ever-expanding material for Star Wars, Count Dooku is unlikely to qualify among the greatest Sith in history because he eventually ended up as one of the pawns in Sidious's schemes. It can be safely argued that even Vader proved to be much more of a Sith Lord then him in scheming aspect at least. In addition, we do not know that how well Dooku would have fared in a time when millions of Sith co-existed and competition for power and glory among them was cut-throat.

Now how many Sith existed in Dooku's time?

- Sidious
- Maul
- Savage
- Assaj

Anybody else?

It is obvious that Dooku would appear to be a "dark colossus bestriding the galaxy" in his time at least.

Another crucial point is that dark side practices can seriously harm the physical well-being of a practitioner. Such practices accelerate the process of aging and a time eventually comes when the practitioner gets reduced to a mere shadow of his/her former self in power.

During the events of the Clone Wars, the signs of aging in Count Dooku slowly but surely become apparent. His opponents are young and growing in power while he is in decline as he struggles in his duels during this time. This observation sits well with the pre-planned stage of his eventual demise aboard Invisible Hand. Palpatine apparently observes these developments with calculative approach and chooses a good time for the demise of Dooku.

Now you see that picture is not so black and white with Dooku? He also grows and changes with passage of time.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Dooku underestimation on these boards is obscene.
I would rather contend that Dooku is among the most hyped up individuals in the mythos. In absence of critical analysis, people falsely assume that Count Dooku is on par with the true elites of the mythos. He apparently isn't.

Count Dooku had his moment of glory in the mythos but he didn't pan out to be destined as among the greatest individuals in history; individuals who could define history itself. This is how even George Lucas envisions him.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Satele is noted as a prodigy, and compared to Bastilla and Revan in prowess. But never is she stated to be more powerful or even as powerful as the likes of Revan or the Sith Emperor.
Satele is nonetheless regarded as the champion of the Republic in her time. The fact that she became the Grand Jedi Master in a time of voilence and conflict; bodes well for her skill and power.

You tell me that how many Jedi in the era of Count Dooku match the feats demonstrated by Satele Shan as a Jedi Knight; let alone as a Grand Jedi Master?

As far as what I have observed thus far, only one Jedi qualifies as a match for Satele from this era and this individual is Yoda. A select few others possibly match her in martial abilities but hold no candle to her in the command of the Force.

Dooku is arguably a challenge for Satele but he doesn't have what it takes to defeat her in combat.

I have noticed that Count Dooku struggles against acrobatic opponents;

Us7juqd2rqs

Prior to this, he struggled against Yoda who also happens to be a highly acrobatic duelist.

Satele too is evidently a highly acrobatic duelist. With her speed and skill, she is also in a good position to force Dooku to retreat if not outduel him.

In addition, Dooku is unlikely to overwhelm her with his Force powers either. Satele is immensely superior to the likes of Savage, Asajj, Anakin, Obi-Wan and many others in this particular aspect.

Your contention is weak or misplaced, my peer.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Selective reading much?
"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."
Covered above.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yoda isn't an omniscient narrator, but he's the most powerful and learned Jedi in history.
This is open to debate. Yoda was once promoted as the strongest practitioner of the light but as further exploration of the Star Wars Universe continues, possibility of retcon becomes stronger day by day.

As far as knowledge is concerned, do you know that Jedi Temples have been ransacked in the past? Yes, Jedi did managed to salvage lost information in time but we don't know if the archives in Yoda's time are actually complete. They are "believed" to be complete as depicted in the movies.

Also, Yoda is hardly in the position to make accurate assessment of the capabilities of Count Dooku as he himself points out to his former pupil that he still has lot to learn (This revelation is one of the classic moments for me in the mythos. ).

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
His opinion holds a shit ton greater weight than yours does on matters of power levels. Dooku leaving the order was such a big deal because he was one of the greatest students of the force the Jedi Order had produced in the history of ever.
This is weak assessment in the light of critical evaluation performed in this post by me.

Count Dooku is certainly counted as among the lost twenty prominent individuals who officially left the Order but Yoda is prone to make subjective claims regarding him.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Malgus was hardly in his prime yet, and he had her on her hands and knees until Jace Malcom intervened.
Good point but Satele was a Jedi Knight by this time. She also would have further grown in power and skill later on.

And Malgus packs overwhelming martial abilities. He has singlehandedly slaughtered a blademaster before.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Sure there were tons of talented individuals, but that can be said for every era of Star Wars.
This is very interesting point.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also don't forget the PT is hailed as the Golden Age of the Jedi.
Labels such as these can have deeper meanings.

The era of Marka Ragnos is regarded as the Golden Age of the Sith; however, this doesn't proves that Ragnos's Sith Empire was the strongest in the mythos.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So what? Mace Windu's team was comprised of some of the most celebrated blademasters in the order's golden age. That is greater hype than being 'some of the finest warriors' in the order.
Hype for Braga's team is about both power and skill of the Jedi.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am well aware. Braga is the only one on that team with feats sans the Hero of Tython.
Sometimes we have to work with logic and not feats.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Hero of Tython, yes. Other 2? No.
Hero of Tython is certainly better then the other 2 but they are also elite individuals as per canonical information.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
When have I ever denied Vitiate is top tier? He's up there with Sidious and Yoda force wise. Luke is way too much of a stretch though.
I believe that Luke isn't superior to these individuals in command of the Force; he is rather a more potent lightsaber duelist or the Force favours him a lot.

Vitiate and Sidious specially get past the biological limitations after becoming virtually immortals.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am not saying they can't I am saying that there is no proof supporting it other than two rather obscure, general statements. Aayla Secura could likely be counted amongst the strongest of the PT order, but she'd get shitstoped by Sidious' pinky finger.

How are they obscure? The Title screen is first thing you see every time you log in as a Jedi. It's the original text and its stating very clearly that they're 'the galaxies most powerful Jedi' (I found the quote). And if we can't accept quotes from the Star Wars The Old Republic Encylopedia and dismiss it as 'obscure' then what source can we accept? And Sidious being able to shitstomp a powerful Jedi Council Member like that would be extremely impressive, wouldn't you think? Just like Vitiate Forcepwning 4 of 'the galaxies most powerful Jedi' is unbelievably impressive and an unprecedented show of force (ba dum tish).

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Force pwning one Jedi is not the same as force pwning someone while fending off two opponents.

Which is why I'm saying he's has a chance if he can take out one of two of them before they can close the distance, not during the fight itself. Recall though that Galen could just Force leap away to get some distance, or levitate in mid-air while unleashing his Force powers as he can do.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I disagree. Post-ROTS Vader has never been hyped to have bladeswork on the level of people like ROTS Kenobi, Dooku, or Windu. Unless you think he got a powerboost after Mustafar, there's no way you could rank Vader above Dooku.

I do. Vader clearly becomes much better with the Force than Anakin ever was and has numerous badass feats to prove it. He's also incredibly strong, surprisingly quick and very skilled. Plus his armor is highly lightsaber resistant and can protect him from most of what Dooku can dish out in terms of the Force. I've argued that Vader is underestimated quite a lot. He could take Dooku like he already has, only this time with a combination of devastating TK and strength.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Game I think is the highest canon. In game he slaps him around then defeats him ala lightsaber.

Well thats a discussion for another time. The fact is that Galen is at least close to him.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
"Destroy the Sith we must." Yoda may not believe in the use of the force for offense in usual circumstances. But he has his moments. Close to Yoda? Sure. Equal to or superior to? No.
I think that though non-canon, the DS ending of TFU gives a pretty good depiction of what would happen with Starkiller vs. a serious Palpatine. And let me tell you, Yoda would give him the same treatment if he has the SOM he had against Sidious.

But he didn't have one of his 'moments' while fighting Dooku did he? He just countered his attacks and never attacked back.

Starkiller's feats are frankly beyond Yoda outside of that one time in the CWC. He force pushed hundreds if not thousands of droids hard enough to create an artificial hurricane over Raxus Prime, He was able to redirect a falling Star Destroyer, not an insignificant feat given the scale of the task and that he bent the hull, his lightning was capable to short-circuiting an AT-AT and killing its crew before he used TK to push it over and he's capable of crushing walkers and he punts frigates and Star Destroyer chunks out of the way of his falling ship in TFUII. The man is insane.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Because there is 1 Jedi Council Member on that strike team. It's an unquantifable statement. There's no way you're going to convince me that those Jedi were more powerful than say, Satele, Kaedan, or the Barsen'thor.

How the hell is it unquantifiable? It's pretty damn clean-cut. They are the 'most powerful', 'strongest and most resolute Jedi in the Order.' Theres nothing ambiguous about that. I'm sorry that you're choosing to ignore canon, but frankly I don't need you to accept it for it to be true.

Also you may be able to handwave away Satale and Kaedan because both were asked to join but declined. And I'm not sure of the Barsen'thor, but perhaps they just weren't that powerful at the time. Hasn't the only thing they've done at that point is cure space AIDS?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes they can. They are featless. They have no one to be scaled to.

Feats are not needed when we have other evidence as to their power. Besides which, I did give you some info on their abilities.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The point of the Sacking of Coruscant was that the Republics best and strongest fighters were at Alderaan.

Not all if a famous duelist was on Coruscant. Corin Tok was also present at the battle and its where he earned his title as the 'invincible' Jedi, by being completely untouchable and slaughtering many Sith also earning him the name 'Sith Butcher'.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dooku-Savage-Ventress run towards Starkiller to engage him. Starkiller lifts up Ventress or Savage. By the time he ragdolls them. Dooku and one of his apprentices will be up on him. And if the pins Ventress and Savage, Dooku will dice him to pieces before he can finish KOing them.

TBH Starkiller could likely kill Savage with a single blast of lightning and he stands a good chance at overwhelming Ventress with it too. Likewise he could snap their necks with TK imo.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


-implies that Count Dooku was possibly the most gifted pupil in a span of generations that Yoda had trained during his tenure as a Jedi Master.

However, this is more likely a subjective opinion of Yoda because Anakin should be logically the most gifted pupil whom Yoda met in life, if not trained directly.

Anakin was mentioned before that quote, but someone mentioned how he's reckless or something. Don't have the book on me.

Then Yoda goes on to say that the best would be the one who was most learned in the ways of the Force and the best student e.t.c which was Count Dooku.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have noticed that Count Dooku struggles against acrobatic opponents;



I'm a bit lost how you reached this conclusion.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm a bit lost how you reached this conclusion.
Dooku struggled against Asajj once when she employed acrobatics in her dueling effort against him and he then unleashed his Force powers on her to subdue her.

Similarly, Dooku also struggled against Yoda; a highly acrobatic duelist.

You can assert that Yoda is an exceptional duelist but what about Asajj? She is good with a saber but if she gave trouble to Dooku with acrobatics then it isn't unreasonable to assume that Satele can relatively do better.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku struggled against Asajj once when she employed acrobatics in her dueling effort against him and he then unleashed his Force powers on her to subdue her.

Similarly, Dooku also struggled against Yoda; a highly acrobatic duelist.

You can assert that Yoda is an exceptional duelist but what about Asajj? She is good with a saber but if she gave trouble to Dooku with acrobatics then it isn't unreasonable to assume that Satele can relatively do better.

Well yeah Yoda's the most powerful Jedi of the PT/OT era.

And just because Dooku used the Force to defeat Ventress, doesn't mean he couldn't win the Saber fight. It was just the quicker and more efficient way to deal with her.

Either way the fight didn't last very long and Dooku was forcing her back the whole time. And she's not known to fight defensively so I assume her being forced backwards was a sign of her being overpowered.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This quote:

"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure." (Yoda)

-implies that Count Dooku was possibly the most gifted pupil in a span of generations that Yoda had trained during his tenure as a Jedi Master.

Yes that's what it's saying.



Not at all. Because when he made that statement Anakin was not the strongest, he was never wiser than Dooku, nor did he have his knowledge of the fore. Nor does Anakin strike me as the best student.


One of the most yes. And yes being the golden child of the order in it's golden age is pretty amazing hype.



Yoda says he was his best pupil. That makes sense, he is one of the strongest. Dooku is not above Yoda.


When did I ever say that that wasn't the case?


He would have filled damned well. Dooku's entire powerbase was the CIS. He's ridiculously powerful, charismatic, dangerously intelligent.


Uhh the same argument could be made for Sidious...you know the most powerful Sith in history.



You have no proof Dooku got weaker after he fell to the dark side.



This is all a great theory, but supposition and quite frankly a gigantic red herring.

Now you see that picture is not so black and white with Dooku? He also grows and changes with passage of time.


Which is why he is stated to be the equals of the only two people from the golden age of Jedi who can match Darth Sidious.

Because you say so amirite?


No she isn't. That's the Hero of Tython.

She did nothing any master of note from the PT could not do.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj07qh51zPI
^This shits all over anything Satele has shown.


Yes he does.

Yoda is *the* master of Ataru so that's a pretty bad analysis.



Your contention is weak or misplaced, my peer.


Covered above.


The moment you said that because Yoda says he has much to learn he isn't a reputable source I stopped reading. This post is unnecessarily long winded. And is frankly all over the place with it's points.

Because you say so amirite?

...He actually said that? facepalm

Originally posted by Nephthys
How are they obscure? The Title screen is first thing you see every time you log in as a Jedi. It's the original text and its stating very clearly that they're 'the galaxies most powerful Jedi' (I found the quote). And if we can't accept quotes from the Star Wars The Old Republic Encylopedia and dismiss it as 'obscure' then what source can we accept? And Sidious being able to shitstomp a powerful Jedi Council Member like that would be extremely impressive, wouldn't you think? Just like Vitiate Forcepwning 4 of 'the galaxies most powerful Jedi' is unbelievably impressive and an unprecedented show of force (ba dum tish).

It's obscure because we don't know how powerful they are in comparison to others. We can accept them showing feats. Like Vandar Tokare has hype from TOR encyclopedia too, as does every other Council member and their mom. But that doesn't mean I'd rate him higher than say, Satele Shan. In the battledome feats>Hype.
And it's hardly unprecedented, Kreia force pwned 3 of the most powerful KOTOR masters instantly.
We don't know how powerful those guys were, so it's unquantifiable. And using them as feats for Vitiate in the BD, can be dismissed under the grounds of it being a no limits fallacy.


And Dooku can do the same, as can Ventress and Opress.




That's great and all, but canon states Vader got weaker after Mustafar. It's a non-negotiable. Vader is wanked pretty hard here, and Dooku is downplayed a ton.



Fair, but Vader's strength isn't really in saber mastery.



SOM is rarely a point in BD discussions.


Because TFU was made so we could get absurd force feats, same with TCW. Yoda can be powerscaled to Sidious who Galen is no match for.


Allow me to retort.
"My strengths lie in observation, subtlety and negotiation. Not exactly welcome talents on the battlefield."-Warren Sedoru
Leeha Narezz also has no such hype sans that statement. Also the quote saying a team of the most powerful does not necessarily mean every single member of that team is the most powerful. One of the Hero of Tython's companions has to be present; hardly the strongest in the order.

Furthermore, Satele Shan is stated, in TOR: Fatal Alliance to be the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy and the Emperor's most hated foe. Someone who would surely be a part of this team of the strongest, most resolute Jedi in the order.

Conclusion: SOME of these people were the strongest in the order and combined they formed a formidable force. But nothing unprecedented like you seem to imply.


Yes that's my point. There were dozens of Jedi who are powerful who just could not because they had other matters to attend to. the Barsen'thor for example was busy with keeping the Republic in one piece.
Lol wut. No curing a plague and shielding thousands of Jedi Masters from death is hardly just 'curing space AIDS'
"There's a title reserved for the most prestigious among us, whose wisdom and skill safeguard the galaxy. It hasn't been bestowed in thousands of years."



List them again please.


Right so he wasn't famous before.


Completely unsupported. He's never been shown to do this casually to any force user on the level of Savage or Ventress. That's a pretty bold assumption you are making.

You know this is a hypothetical discussion and not a Battledrome thread? I don't even know what SOM means.

Team should take it, though there will be casualties.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well yeah Yoda's the most powerful Jedi of the PT/OT era.
One thing to note here that Yoda doesn't packs brute strength; he packs precision, speed and acrobatics. This doesn't precludes the possibility to use the Force to exert strength under right circumstances but he cannot unleash overwhelming strikes like Malgus. Dooku doesn't matches Malgus in brute strength either. His fighting style is about precision and elegance. Of course, this doesn't precludes the possibility to use the Force to exert strength under right circumstances in his case either but Malgus is on a whole new level in this regard. He overwhelmed Kao Cen Darach with his brutish strength and many years later he did the same with Ven Zallow. So Satele's struggle against Malgus doesn't implies that she will struggle against Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And just because Dooku used the Force to defeat Ventress, doesn't mean he couldn't win the Saber fight. It was just the quicker and more efficient way to deal with her.
Dooku had his chance earlier as well but couldn't. Later on, given the setting, Ventress did the right thing by giving space and increasing her effectiveness with acrobatics to prevent Count from overpowering her easily which forced the Count to use his powers to subdue her eventually. In both examples cited by me, Dooku struggled to overcome acrobatic opponents with his martial abilities. Now keep in mind that Satele packed such strength that at one point she held Malgus at bay with single hand and used the other to rip a gigantic tree apart from its foundation simultaneously to break up the clash between her and him. The dynamics of combat between Satele and Malgus are different from that of a hypothetical combat between her and Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Either way the fight didn't last very long and Dooku was forcing her back the whole time. And she's not known to fight defensively so I assume her being forced backwards was a sign of her being overpowered.
Covered above! While I don't disagree that Dooku got the better of her but he struggled to keep her under check when the opponent employed acrobatics as a counter to his effectiveness with his blade. Given the hype Count gets for his martial abilities from fans, I find him resorting to his Force powers in this duel to subdue his opponent amusing. You have to admit that acrobatics do concern him. In contrast to Ventress, Satele is on a whole new level.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
...He actually said that? facepalm
This;

"Chancellor, please!" he gasps, desperate and helpless, his aristocratic demeanor invisible, his courage only a bitter memory. He is reduced to begging for his life, as so many of his victims have.

"Please, you promised me immunity! We had a deal! Help me!"

And his begging gains him a share of mercy equal to that | which he has dispensed.

"A deal only if you released me," Palpatine replies, cold as intergalactic space. "Not if you used me as bait to kill my friends."

And he knows, then, that all has indeed been going according to plan. Sidious's plan, not his own. This had been a Jedi trap | indeed, but Jedi were not the quarry.

They were the bait.

"Anakin," Palpatine says quietly. "Finish him."

Years of Jedi training make Anakin hesitate; he looks down upon Dooku and sees not a Lord of the Sith but a beaten, broken, cringing old man.

"I shouldn't-"

But when Palpatine barks, "Do it! Now!" Anakin realizes that this isn't actually an order. That it is, in fact, nothing more than what he's been waiting for his whole life.

Permission.

And Dooku-As he looks up into the eyes of Anakin Skywalker for the final time,Count Dooku knows that he has been deceived not just today, but for many, many years. That he has never been the true apprentice.

That he has never been the heir to the power of the Sith. He has been only a tool.

His whole life-all his victories, all his struggles, all his heritage, all his principles and his sacrifices, everything he's done, everything he owns, everything he's been, all his dreams and grand vision for the future Empire and the Army of Sith-have been only a pathetic sham, because all of them, all of him, add up only to this.

He has existed only for this.

This (ROTS Novelization)

I know that you will not respond to me but your blatant overhype of Count should be countered effectively. Your reaction demonstrates your insecurity in this regard.

Also, I recall a quote from Lucas in which he puts (Cyborg) Vader, Count and Maul in the same boat. Not a pleasant revelation if Lucas thinks so highly of Count. Their are blind fans and then their is truth. I know that the latter hurts.

If Dooku had what it take to redefine history; he would have done it either through scheming or his strength. He couldn't! He is a Sith Lord of note but he is far from the greatest ones in the whole mythos.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You know this is a hypothetical discussion and not a Battledrome thread? I don't even know what SOM means.

State of mind...and is there a difference?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
-snip-

Putting Maul, Dooku, and Cyborg Vader in the same boat is in the means that they were all placeholders. Maul because he was merely an assassin, Dooku because he was old and couldn't grow to surpass him, Vader because similar to Dooku he couldn't surpass Sidious.

Being unable to surpass the most powerful Sith Lord in history hardly makes one weak, and definitely doesn't detract from Dooku's hype.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Putting Maul, Dooku, and Cyborg Vader in the same boat is in the means that they were all placeholders. Maul because he was merely an assassin, Dooku because he was old and couldn't grow to surpass him, Vader because similar to Dooku he couldn't surpass Sidious.

Being unable to surpass the most powerful Sith Lord in history hardly makes one weak, and definitely doesn't detract from Dooku's hype.



Dooku has the accolades and feats to earn a place among the giants of the franchise.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Not at all. Because when he made that statement Anakin was not the strongest, he was never wiser than Dooku, nor did he have his knowledge of the fore. Nor does Anakin strike me as the best student.
So Yoda evaluated Dooku on the basis of his "command of the Force" after he left the Order?

What about Mace? Wasn't he on par with Dooku, if not better?

One thing to note in Yoda's statement is that it is also filled with several question marks. So Yoda's assessment is a rough one.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
One of the most yes. And yes being the golden child of the order in it's golden age is pretty amazing hype.
Bro, Yoda is not in the position to determine how Dooku ranks in skill and power in history of the Jedi Order. His assertion is limited to his tenure.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yoda says he was his best pupil. That makes sense, he is one of the strongest. Dooku is not above Yoda.

When did I ever say that that wasn't the case?
Then why the contention that he is better then Satele when she is on a whole new level in the context of promotion in the mythos?

Dooku haven't manhandled one of the strongest Sith Lords in history in the manner as she did with her Jedi powers; Dooku haven't demonstrated command of the Force on par with that of Satele thus far.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He would have filled damned well. Dooku's entire powerbase was the CIS. He's ridiculously powerful, charismatic, dangerously intelligent.
This is your subjective opinion; Dooku experienced a far different setting and Sidious granted him immense power and glory on silver plate. Dooku didn't had to work hard to compete against other contenders to climb the ladder within the Sith hierarchy to reach such position of power and glory. Try to understand, bro.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uhh the same argument could be made for Sidious...you know the most powerful Sith in history.
Sidious is on a whole new level in comparison to Dooku. He is at the helm of the affairs.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You have no proof Dooku got weaker after he fell to the dark side
You missed the entire point. It is obvious that your knowledge of some "ground realities" in the Star Wars mythos is seriously limited. Dooku's decline is apparent from his struggles against his opponents during the Clone Wars. His (young) opponents are growing in power while he is reaching his limits due to toll of the dark side practices on him; he is already very old. Their is only so much he can do at this stage. Even Savage gave him trouble in a duel once and forced him to flee; the same guy whom Dooku was training not long ago.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
This is all a great theory, but supposition and quite frankly a gigantic red herring.

Now you see that picture is not so black and white with Dooku? He also grows and changes with passage of time.
Recheck the history of Dooku's struggles against Anakin to get my drift here. Heck, Anakin and Obi-Wan once mused about Dooku's aging during the Clone Wars. Star Wars authors aren't blind to "ground realities" of the mythos; some fans are.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Which is why he is stated to be the equals of the only two people from the golden age of Jedi who can match Darth Sidious.
Dooku may once have been as good as Mace (during his tenure as a Jedi, mind you) but Mace became stronger later on. Heck, Mace (CW) is regarded as a Champion of the Order; an accolade similar to that of Revan. And Dooku was never stated to be a match for Yoda. He wasn't either.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Because you say so amirite?
No! Check my disclosure to the member (The_Tempest) above.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No she isn't. That's the Hero of Tython.
Have you read Star Wars The Old Republic Encylopedia? My guess is no.

Hero of Tython could be even stronger though; I don't deny the possibility. This guy is amazing in all aspects.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
She did nothing any master of note from the PT could not do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj07qh51zPI
^This shits all over anything Satele has shown.
First of all, Mace is not "any master"; he is among the champions of the Jedi Order.

Secondly, the medium which you cited is like an anime which is known to depict characters in a unique but souped-up fashion. Satele have never been depicted in a such a medium and I am sure if she would be ever, she would be not less impressive.

Finally, even in this footage, Mace's greatest feats are repeated use of Force waves to knock out lot of droids and punching through them on several occasions. However, Mace is never this impressive in more realistic mediums which you should stick to for a more fair comparison. But still what Mace does in this footage doesn't makes him more impressive then Satele. In the hope trailer, she decimates anything else in her path barring Malgus and she even manhandles Malgus (Even before the Great War, Malgus was widely ragarded as one of the greatest warriors in the Sith Empire) with her Jedi powers.

Heck, if you are impressed by Mace's punches through those "not so high quality droids"*, you should note that Satele can shatter "blast doors" without effort;

http://i46.tinypic.com/2ywthmh.png

And, of course, troops, droids and all that are nothing but mooks to her.

*The reason that I dubbed those droids as "not so high quality" is on the basis of the observation that an HK series unit singlehandedly destroyed several B2 droids and a Droideka in single event with ease and without any weapons (after it was activated on Mustafar).

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes he does.
An opinion not based on merit.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yoda is *the* master of Ataru so that's a pretty bad analysis.
I don't take claims like these seriously. He isn't the "only" master of Ataru in history.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Your contention is weak or misplaced, my peer.
I respectfully disagree on the basis of my observations.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The moment you said that because Yoda says he has much to learn he isn't a reputable source I stopped reading. This post is unnecessarily long winded. And is frankly all over the place with it's points.
Here;

More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture.

"Much to learn you still have," Yoda remarked.

Dooku disengaged the futile lightning assault. "It is obvious this contest will not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber."

Yoda reverently drew out his lightsaber, its green blade humming to
life. (AOTC Novelization)

What do you make of this?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Putting Maul, Dooku, and Cyborg Vader in the same boat is in the means that they were all placeholders. Maul because he was merely an assassin, Dooku because he was old and couldn't grow to surpass him, Vader because similar to Dooku he couldn't surpass Sidious.
Maul lost his moment after he was seriously injured by Obi-Wan. His position had been "filled" afterwards.

Dooku served as a stop-gap measure until Sidious could find a more suitable apprentice but his luck ran out when Anakin was also seriously injured by Obi-Wan. As a cyborg, Vader was not in the position to advance far in dark side practices.

Yes, Dooku being old was an issue as I have highlighted in my previous posts.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Being unable to surpass the most powerful Sith Lord in history hardly makes one weak, and definitely doesn't detract from Dooku's hype.
Will you stop with this most powerful Sith Lord in history hype? It doesn't makes sense to unnecessarily gloat about a hype which is already in question in the light of expansion of canonical materials within the Star Wars mythos.

Dark side practices are the key to unlock abilities which can transcend biological limitations. Keep this in mind.

Sidious was interested in a young Force-sensitive individual who packed great potential (not necessarily greater then his) and would show promise with dark side practices. Was Anakin the only one who could meet his expectations? Nope. Sidious showed interest in Marek and Luke as well.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Putting Maul, Dooku, and Cyborg Vader in the same boat is in the means that they were all placeholders.

Yep putting Dooku on the level of someone who is 80% as powerful as the Emperor isn't bad at all. Who knows maybe Dooku's a little higher which could make even more than 80.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Maul because he was merely an assassin,

Well I think it's clear now that he was more than just that.




Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Being unable to surpass the most powerful Sith Lord in history hardly makes one weak, and definitely doesn't detract from Dooku's hype.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Recheck the history of Dooku's struggles against Anakin to get my drift here.

Maybe the Chsoen One is just That Good


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku may once have been as good as Mace (during his tenure as a Jedi, mind you) but Mace became stronger later on. Heck, Mace (CW) is regarded as a Champion of the Order; an accolade similar to that of Revan. And Dooku was never stated to be a match for Yoda. He wasn't either.




Dooku also became more powerful after he left the order. Yoda in the CW still seems to think Dooku would still have the edge over Mace.

And neither Mace or Dooku are Yoda's equal.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


Here;

More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture.

"Much to learn you still have," Yoda remarked.

Dooku disengaged the futile lightning assault. "It is obvious this contest will not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber."

Yoda reverently drew out his lightsaber, its green blade humming to
life. (AOTC Novelization)

What do you make of this?

You missed out the part right before this where it says Yoda was catching his Lightning "Far from Easily.."

Also the end of the duel has Yoda described as being "Exhausted."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maybe the Chsoen One is just That Good
Anakin is young and he is growing in power. In contrast, Dooku have reached his limitations due to aging.

If Dooku would have been young, he may have done better.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku also became more powerful after he left the order. Yoda in the CW still seems to think Dooku would still have the edge over Mace.
He became more powerful due to dark side practices. His performance in Geonosis indicates this much. But then these practices started taking toll on him as apparent from the events in CW.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And neither Mace or Dooku are Yoda's equal.
This is subjective reasoning; Mace beat Sidious. What more proof do we need?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You missed out the part right before this where it says Yoda was catching his Lightning "Far from Easily.."
Yoda was initially stressed but he became comfortable.

Keep in mind that Dooku's FL abilities aren't elite by current Star Wars standards. So this example, on one end, indicates that Yoda (regardless of his power) have realistic limitations in some aspects, and on the other end, indicates that Dooku is Yoda's inferior.

This is one reaon which have led me to believe that Dooku will be annihilated in the contest of Force powers against super strong individuals of the past.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also the end of the duel has Yoda described as being "Exhausted."
He was exhausted by the crane feat. It was very heavy.

Yoda's Ataru is also very intensive and tiring to use and Yoda ain't no spring chicken.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda's Ataru is also very intensive and tiring to use and Yoda ain't no spring chicken.
Excellent point.

Yes, I too have read somewhere that Ataru is very exhausting dueling Form.

It's in the Jedi Path. Ataru relies upon overwhelming an opponent quickly before you exhaust yourself from the effort involved.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin is young and he is growing in power. In contrast, Dooku have reached his limitations due to aging.

If Dooku would have been young, he may have done better.

I'm not sure why you think this when we are told Dooku was more powerful as a Sith than he ever was as a Jedi.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He became more powerful due to dark side practices. His performance in Geonosis indicates this much. But then these practices started taking toll on him as apparent from the events in CW.

So what are you saying? That AOTC Dooku > ROTS Dooku?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is subjective reasoning; Mace beat Sidious. What more proof do we need?


He beat him in a close quarters Saber duel. Yoda lost to a Sidious who was taking advantage of a more open environment and really letting loose with all his Force powers.

And pretty much every source has Yoda as the top dog. Not Mace. Mace was 2nd.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yoda was initially stressed but he became comfortable.

True but the initial stress still says something considering the distance Dooku was firing from.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
indicates that Dooku is Yoda's inferior.

Of course. But so is Mace.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He was exhausted by the crane feat. It was very heavy.

Speculative. Bear in mind Yoda came into that fight fresh. Whilst Dooku had 2 fights just prior.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


Dooku had his chance earlier as well but couldn't. Later on, given the setting, Ventress did the right thing by giving space and increasing her effectiveness with acrobatics to prevent Count from overpowering her easily which forced the Count to use his powers to subdue her eventually. In both examples cited by me, Dooku struggled to overcome acrobatic opponents with his martial abilities. Now keep in mind that Satele packed such strength that at one point she held Malgus at bay with single hand and used the other to rip a gigantic tree apart from its foundation simultaneously to break up the clash between her and him. The dynamics of combat between Satele and Malgus are different from that of a hypothetical combat between her and Dooku.


Covered above! While I don't disagree that Dooku got the better of her but he struggled to keep her under check when the opponent employed acrobatics as a counter to his effectiveness with his blade. Given the hype Count gets for his martial abilities from fans, I find him resorting to his Force powers in this duel to subdue his opponent amusing. You have to admit that acrobatics do concern him. In contrast to Ventress, Satele is on a whole new level.

He beat her quite comfortable and quickly. And even in that short fight she was being forced back the entire time.

The only time he struggled is when he was up against 2 Opponents. But even then the official site confirms he was too powerful for their combined efforts.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
State of mind...and is there a difference?

Well you keep talking about how we should act in a BD when we're not in a Battledrome. I'm not going to dismiss Yoda's showing against Dooku on the merits of 'SOM.' And I'm not going to put feats over canon statements because that's how we play 'in the battledrome.' In this forum, statements from canonical sources have as much sway as feats. Only by being mindful of both can we come to a informed opinion.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's obscure because we don't know how powerful they are in comparison to others. We can accept them showing feats. Like Vandar Tokare has hype from TOR encyclopedia too, as does every other Council member and their mom. But that doesn't mean I'd rate him higher than say, Satele Shan. In the battledome feats>Hype.
And it's hardly unprecedented, Kreia force pwned 3 of the most powerful KOTOR masters instantly.
We don't know how powerful those guys were, so it's unquantifiable. And using them as feats for Vitiate in the BD, can be dismissed under the grounds of it being a no limits fallacy.

No, we can't use them in threads, we can't compare them to other combatants or anything, but we can accept that they were powerful members of the Order. If a quote says they were the strongest Jedi in the Order.... you can't just ignore that, can you? Thats kind of a statement about how they compare to others in and of itself.

Yes and you better believe that's an incredibly powerful display. It demonstrates effectively the power of the attack and its a pretty great statement about the unblockable nature of it.

We do know how powerful they are. They are, canonically 'the most powerful, strongest and most resolute members of the Order.' Also lolwut? How it in any way a no limits fallacy? They don't have unlimited power, duh, they're just the most powerful members of the Order.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And Dooku can do the same, as can Ventress and Opress.

What, levitate while attacking? Somehow I doubt that.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That's great and all, but canon states Vader got weaker after Mustafar. It's a non-negotiable. Vader is wanked pretty hard here, and Dooku is downplayed a ton.

B-but his feats are superior! And feats >>>>> hype, right? Lol. Anyway, no it says that he never reached his true potential, it says his growth was stymied, it says whatever. Even though he was diminished after Mustafar, that doesn't mean that he can't pick himself back up and improve, as he does in Rise of Darth Vader.

Do you think Anakin could have given Starkiller that much of a fight?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Fair, but Vader's strength isn't really in saber mastery.

He still has all his lightsaber skills from his time as Anakin. He's still impressive in his lightsaber prowess. Plus everything else I mentioned.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
SOM is rarely a point in BD discussions.

I don't.... care?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Because TFU was made so we could get absurd force feats, same with TCW. Yoda can be powerscaled to Sidious who Galen is no match for.

Galen was no match for OT Sidious, who at this time has scoured the galaxy for dark side knowledge and has undoubtably become more powerful than the Sidious Yoda fought.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Allow me to retort.
"My strengths lie in observation, subtlety and negotiation. Not exactly welcome talents on the battlefield."-Warren Sedoru
Leeha Narezz also has no such hype sans that statement. Also the quote saying a team of the most powerful does not necessarily mean every single member of that team is the most powerful. One of the Hero of Tython's companions has to be present; hardly the strongest in the order.

That doesn't mean that he was not also a very proficient warrior.

She was known as the warrior who 'never knew defeat.' The Heroes companions aren't on the strike team.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Furthermore, Satele Shan is stated, in TOR: Fatal Alliance to be the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy and the Emperor's most hated foe. Someone who would surely be a part of this team of the strongest, most resolute Jedi in the order.

Conclusion: SOME of these people were the strongest in the order and combined they formed a formidable force. But nothing unprecedented like you seem to imply.

As I said, Satale can be considered exempt since she was offered a place. And if there is a quote saying that then its possible it overrides the other ones. Even if it is a year before the strike team was assembled, and when the Hero returns to the Order Satale doesn't herself identify them as the Order greatest champion.

No. The conclusion is that they are undoubtedly some of the strongest, most powerful members. I'm not saying that all of them are more powerful than Satale or something necessarily, but we CANNOT disregard their defeat or regard them as 'fodder' in the face of the evidence that they are a team made up, again, of the 'most powerful, strongest and most resolute Jedi in the Order.' They are undoubtedly some of the greatest Jedi in the Order. Defeating such a team with just Force Lightning, aka through sheer power, is unprecedented and you will acknowledge it as such.

How I see it is as if Sidious overpowered Mace Windu, Anakin, Plo Koon and Ki Adi Mundi at the same time. Now certain people might try to handwave it away by going 'oh of course Ki Adi Mundi and Plo Koon are below Sidious' and 'oh Anakin wasn't as powerful then' or something but to overpower them all at the same time is incredible. It has never been done before.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes that's my point. There were dozens of Jedi who are powerful who just could not because they had other matters to attend to. the Barsen'thor for example was busy with keeping the Republic in one piece.
Lol wut. No curing a plague and shielding thousands of Jedi Masters from death is hardly just 'curing space AIDS'
"There's a title reserved for the most prestigious among us, whose wisdom and skill safeguard the galaxy. It hasn't been bestowed in thousands of years."

Wisdom and skill. Not strength or power. How much combat strength was needed to cure this plague? How much strength in the Force was required to shield these Masters?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
List them again please.

No. The threads only a few pages long, just flick through it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Right so he wasn't famous before.

He was clearly still powerful though. He didn't become impressive only after he performed those feats. He was powerful and skilled enough before the Sith arrived obviously.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Completely unsupported. He's never been shown to do this casually to any force user on the level of Savage or Ventress. That's a pretty bold assumption you are making.

He killed an AT-AT and everyone in it. Do you think Savage can tank lightning than a ****ing AT-AT?

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's in the Jedi Path. Ataru relies upon overwhelming an opponent quickly before you exhaust yourself from the effort involved.
Thanks, bro. It all fits now.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm not sure why you think this when we are told Dooku was more powerful as a Sith than he ever was as a Jedi.
See my responses in page 5 in which I have evaluated Dooku. It is exhaustive to repeat same assertions again and again.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So what are you saying? That AOTC Dooku > ROTS Dooku?
Seems to be the case.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He beat him in a close quarters Saber duel. Yoda lost to a Sidious who was taking advantage of a more open environment and really letting loose with all his Force powers.
You are talking about which fight?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And pretty much every source has Yoda as the top dog. Not Mace. Mace was 2nd.
Yoda might be more powerful or his command of the Force may have been greater but Mace is relatively more effective duelist due to his brute strength, Vaapad and shatterpoint abilities.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
True but the initial stress still says something considering the distance Dooku was firing from.
Well, it is more of a sign of Yoda's limitation rather then that of Dooku's power (as pointed out earlier; Dooku's FL abilities aren't grand). Please keep in mind that Yoda is also very old at this point. Aging takes its toll with passage of time.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course. But so is Mace.
See above. Key difference is that Mace is more effective duelist.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Speculative. Bear in mind Yoda came into that fight fresh. Whilst Dooku had 2 fights just prior.
Yoda's fighting style is exhaustive; on top of this, Dooku created such circumstances that Yoda was further strained by it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He beat her quite comfortable and quickly. And even in that short fight she was being forced back the entire time.

The only time he struggled is when he was up against 2 Opponents. But even then the official site confirms he was too powerful for their combined efforts.
He struggled in this fight. He won for sure but was it ever expected that the likes of Assaj and Savage would give him challenge? Give credit where due.

In contrast, you can see how Sidious performed against the brothers. Such is the difference.

More importantly, Satele is on a whole new level in comparison to Asajj and Savage which is the more important part.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD



See my responses in page 5 in which I have evaluated Dooku. It is exhaustive to repeat same assertions again and again.


Seems to be the case.

I've been through your responses and they're all very speculative. Whilst the ROTS Novel makes it clear Old Sith Dooku is more powerful than young Jedi Dooku ever was.

Age isn't an issue. It didn't stop him stomping all those younger Jedi/Sith - Kenobi, Ventress, Opress.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are talking about which fight?

Mace's fight with Sidious compared to Yoda's. The context of those fights were very different.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yoda might be more powerful or his command of the Force may have been greater but Mace is relatively more effective duelist due to his brute strength, Vaapad and shatterpoint abilities.

Yoda's more powerful in the Force and he's the better Saber duelist.

He's mastered every form, and he's just outright faster and more powerful than Mace. His Saber defenses described in the AOTC novel were pretty flawless and seemed impossible to get through.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Asajj and Savage which is the more important part.

I think you underestimate how good these 2 are. They can take almost all the Jedi Council in a one on one. Including the "Celebrated" Swordsmen.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I've been through your responses and they're all very speculative.
My assertions are not speculative but based on proper assessment of his situation. Remember that characters grow and change with passage of time. Continue to read below.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Whilst the ROTS Novel makes it clear Old Sith Dooku is more powerful than young Jedi Dooku ever was.
Now this is an example of a shortsighted assessment. ROTS novelization did implied that Dooku emerged stronger as a Sith Lord but now we have update from the Clone Wars cartoons which depict his decline and rise of his opponents. I have offered sufficient hints and reasoning in this aspect which strengthens my stand in this regard. It is futile excercise to argue against latest canonical developments. Star Wars is now much more complex in its scope then it was back in the days of ROTS novelization. In those days, many questions were unanswered and exhaustive debates took place. But now it is easy to figure out the ground realities of complex issues on the basis of new information.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Age isn't an issue. It didn't stop him stomping all those younger Jedi/Sith - Kenobi, Ventress, Opress.
This is an over-simplified and misleading explanation of his performances. He have defeated all of them but then a time eventually came that one of them defeated him. Of course, Dooku's great command of the Force and martial abilities granted him edge over his younger opponents for a decent while but a time eventually came when his limitations became more apparent; he went from giving Yoda trouble to getting chopped by Anakin. Are you trying to imply that Anakin at this point was a match for Yoda or possibly better? Not at all. Dark side practices accelerate aging process and their comes a time when the practitioner becomes a mere shadow of his formerself. This is apparent from the examples of Xedrix and Bane and possibly more individuals. Dooku hadn't exactly reached breaking point at the end of CW but he was getting close.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace's fight with Sidious compared to Yoda's. The context of those fights were very different.
You have a point here but keep in mind that Sidious also wasted opportunity to kill Yoda early on. He paid for his overconfidence.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yoda's more powerful in the Force and he's the better Saber duelist.
Debatable.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He's mastered every form, and he's just outright faster and more powerful than Mace. His Saber defenses described in the AOTC novel were pretty flawless and seemed impossible to get through.
Yoda isn't the only one to master all forms of lightsaber combat. Mace also did so and even innovated Form VII.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think you underestimate how good these 2 are. They can take almost all the Jedi Council in a one on one. Including the "Celebrated" Swordsmen.
I don't underestimate them. The ones which are being underestimated are the TOR era powerhouses.

Ever seen Savage or Asajj in the position to hold an overwhelmingly strong duelist with one hand at bay and then simultaneously use the other hand to perform a tedious feat with the Force to shift the tide of the battle during the heat of combat? I don't think so.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He killed an AT-AT and everyone in it. Do you think Savage can tank lightning than a ****ing AT-AT?

Not feat-to-feat, no. But I'm sympathetic to Arhael and Mizukage's powerscaling arguments. I think it's readily apparent that Force lightning is not treated the same as it is in a Karpyshyn novel.

I'm against ignoring a feat just because I dislike how powerful it is myself. Especially when the guy has been bringing up Yoda's CWC feats himself.

Also it wasn't from a Karpyshan novel but I get what you meant. Do you feel the same way about Galen's other absurd feats from the novels?

Absolutely. Feat-to-feat, Starkiller wastes juggernauts like Bane and Dooku and Vitiate with contemptuous ease. Sidious himself, too, if we didn't know from other sources that Palpatine is more powerful.

I mean, ultimately it doesn't really change anything for me either way. Sidious, by virtue of his infinitely greater importance and exposure, dominates no matter how you slice it.

But I really don't think Marek would curbstomp Vitiate despite having the feats to so so.

And for the record, I also agree that the micro series feats are as incongruous as a Karpyshyn novel.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My assertions are not speculative but based on proper assessment of his situation. Remember that characters grow and change with passage of time. Continue to read below.

Not really. Your arguing because Opress and Ventress together were a challenge to Dooku that he must somehow being suffering from his age.

Opress in the same episode took on both Skywalker and Kenobi and seemed to actually have the edge. Ventress 2 episodes earlier also went toe to toe with both Skywalker and Kenobi.

So clearly being more than a match for both Opress and Ventress is not a sign of old age or degrading power at all.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Now this is an example of a shortsighted assessment. ROTS novelization did implied that Dooku emerged stronger as a Sith Lord but now we have update from the Clone Wars cartoons which depict his decline and rise of his opponents. I have offered sufficient hints and reasoning in this aspect which strengthens my stand in this regard. It is futile excercise to argue against latest canonical developments. Star Wars is now much more complex in its scope then it was back in the days of ROTS novelization. In those days, many questions were unanswered and exhaustive debates took place. But now it is easy to figure out the ground realities of complex issues on the basis of new information.

I actually agree with this. That the newer canon should take priority to old quotes which I was actually just recently arguing.

But where I disagree is that the new show shows Dooku getting weaker. It shows no such thing Imo.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is an over-simplified and misleading explanation of his performances. He have defeated all of them but then a time eventually came that one of them defeated him. Of course, Dooku's great command of the Force and martial abilities granted him edge over his younger opponents for a decent while but a time eventually came when his limitations became more apparent; he went from giving Yoda trouble to getting chopped by Anakin. Are you trying to imply that Anakin at this point was a match for Yoda or possibly better? Not at all. Dark side practices accelerate aging process and their comes a time when the practitioner becomes a mere shadow of his formerself. This is apparent from the examples of Xedrix and Bane and possibly more individuals. Dooku hadn't exactly reached breaking point at the end of CW but he was getting close.

So basically your whole argument seems to be that because Skywalker gave Dooku trouble that Dooku must somehow be getting weaker. Skywalker was not even easy pickings in the CW movie which is supposed to take place very shortly after AOTC. So are you really suggesting that Dooku suddenly became weaker right after AOTC?

No the more logical explanation is that Skywalker was the one rapidly growing in power. Your issue is that you can not imagine Skywalker going toe to toe with Yoda or Mace in pure Lightsaber combat. In fact you find this so hard to imagine that you've already decided that's a fact.

Well the only fact is that we can not presume anything in that regard since Skywalker has never fought Mace or Yoda.
In fact we can not even presume Kenobi is so far below them in pure Saber combat for that matter as he is also rapidly improving during the CW.
In fact the Newer Canon has shown him portraying a very similar Saber performance to Sidious against the exact same opponents with the same number of weapons.

And whatever newer canon shows the movies will always remain the highest form of canon, which shows Dooku in ROTS battling both Kenobi and Skywalker in their prime, parrying BOTH their strikes with ONE hand, then smacking Skywalker against the wall whilst simultaneously Force choking Kenobi with absolute ease.

Doesn't really seem to me like age was getting the better of him at all.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You have a point here but keep in mind that Sidious also wasted opportunity to kill Yoda early on. He paid for his overconfidence.

What that shows is that Sidious went all out with his Force powers right from the beginning of his fight with Yoda. Something he didn't do against Mace.

Mace had back up at the beginning of the fight which force Sidious to get into a close up fight with them which stayed confined to quite a narrow space.

So yeah. Very different circumstances.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Debatable.

Not really. It was always Lucas's intent for Yoda to be no.1 and Mace no.2. Newer canon hasn't suggested otherwise at all.




Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ever seen Savage or Asajj in the position to hold an overwhelmingly strong duelist with one hand at bay and then simultaneously use the other hand to perform a tedious feat with the Force to shift the tide of the battle during the heat of combat? I don't think so.

No. But I've seen Dooku do that quite casually in ROTS.

Oh and I have seen Savage fight off a whoel load of Destroyer droids surrounding him, and then use a Force wave that put down all those droids plus 2 pretty powerful Jedi.

And I've seen Asajj fight off the same Jedi and when she was cornered Force choke them both.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm against ignoring a feat just because I dislike how powerful it is myself. Especially when the guy has been bringing up Yoda's CWC feats himself.

Also it wasn't from a Karpyshan novel but I get what you meant. Do you feel the same way about Galen's other absurd feats from the novels?

I am bringing up CWC feats because of people blatantly ignoring logical powerscaling. Based on feats Galen Marek should have been more than capable of shitstomping Vader, and even Sidious.

In TFU I, Rahm Kota casually rips a piece of a space station off and sends it into the atmosphere. The same Kota who is ruthlessly and easily disposed of by Vader.

When Starkiller doesn't believe he can move the Star Destroyer Kota says something akin to 'You're a Jedi, size doesn't matter.'

I do not doubt that in TFU/ CWC depictions Yoda, Mace and Dooku would also be able to replicate many of Marek's feats. Espcially considering he seems to be on the same level of Vader. He doesn't really seem to ever totally outclass him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not really. Your arguing because Opress and Ventress together were a challenge to Dooku that he must somehow being suffering from his age.
It is an assessment based on all of his performances throughout. Specially focus upon Dooku's history with Anakin.

Geonosis: Dooku defeats Anakin
Tatooine: Stalemate
Naboo: Dooku subdues Anakin with help of MagnaGuards
Tythe: Dooku retreats
Invisible Hand: Anakin defeats Dooku

It is obvious that Anakin is growing in power with passage of time but should we assume that Dooku is somehow immune to the negative fallout of the dark side practices? Dooku was already very old when he left the Jedi Order. Their was only so much he could in his 80s.

Sidious was in search of a young apprentice for multiple reasons.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Opress in the same episode took on both Skywalker and Kenobi and seemed to actually have the edge. Ventress 2 episodes earlier also went toe to toe with both Skywalker and Kenobi.

So clearly being more than a match for both Opress and Ventress is not a sign of old age or degrading power at all.
Dynamics of each battle are different; Savage and Ventress are young individuals and it doesn't surprises me if they have fought the duo of Anakin and Obi-Wan and vice versa on multiple occasions.

Dooku handled the duo of Savage and Opress on the basis of his much greater command of the Force and experience. He was also a formidable duelist so all of these factors helped him. But focus on the dynamics of this duel; Dooku kept Savage at bay with his FL abilities and when Savage went all out on him, Dooku fled the place. Savage packed much greater brute strength then Asajj so it is obvious that she couldn't replicate his performance. However, Savage lacked in command of the dark side and formal training and he couldn't defeat Dooku during this time due to these shortcomings. Still he send him to retreat which is a big feat for him. Asajj was also doing fine until she got trapped in the narrow corridors and Dooku subdued her with his Force powers. Now keep in mind that this is the same guy who held his own against Yoda some years ago in Geonosis and here he found himself struggling against opponents who weren't in his league during this time.

Now would you say that Yoda will struggle against Savage and Asajj? Or would rather assume that Dooku is showing signs of aging?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I actually agree with this. That the newer canon should take priority to old quotes which I was actually just recently arguing.

But where I disagree is that the new show shows Dooku getting weaker. It shows no such thing Imo.
This is strange! You accept the logic behind my assertion but not the assertion itself? It is obvious from the developments during the Clone Wars that Dooku is getting past his prime condition. Of course, impact of aging wouldn't be sudden; what happens is that the physical strength begins to diminish slowly but surely and the individual tires out quickly.

Also, even in real life, significant decline in physical well-being of a person at old age can happen within a span of 2 to 3 years.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So basically your whole argument seems to be that because Skywalker gave Dooku trouble that Dooku must somehow be getting weaker. Skywalker was not even easy pickings in the CW movie which is supposed to take place very shortly after AOTC. So are you really suggesting that Dooku suddenly became weaker right after AOTC?
Anakin grows in power at rapid pace due to his enormous potential as you mentioned below. But this doesn't rules out the possibility of negative impact of dark side practices on Dooku's physical well-being. Such practices accelerate aging; try to comprehend this.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No the more logical explanation is that Skywalker was the one rapidly growing in power. Your issue is that you can not imagine Skywalker going toe to toe with Yoda or Mace in pure Lightsaber combat. In fact you find this so hard to imagine that you've already decided that's a fact.
Anakin wouldn't be as powerful as Mace and Yoda during the events of ROTS. Mace and Yoda were much older and more learned in the ways of the Force then Anakin. It is unwise to assume that Anakin in just few years matched or exceeded Yoda and Mace in skill and power. Also, their is no such thing as pure lightsaber combat; power/command of the Force always complement martial abilities. Anakin trained as a Jedi Knight and he developed talents suitable for this kind of Jedi training path (Warrior). Dooku was much like a Jedi Consular. Heck, Yoda also seems to be a Jedi Consular.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well the only fact is that we can not presume anything in that regard since Skywalker has never fought Mace or Yoda.
ROTS movie offers sufficient hint;

When the time came to confront both the Sith Master and his Apprentice; Yoda adviced Obi-Wan to confront Anakin by explicitly telling him that he is not powerful enough to handle Sidious and himself went to face the Sith Master.

How can you overlook this very significant hint?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In fact we can not even presume Kenobi is so far below them in pure Saber combat for that matter as he is also rapidly improving during the CW.
In fact the Newer Canon has shown him portraying a very similar Saber performance to Sidious against the exact same opponents with the same number of weapons.
This is logical fallacy; proficiency in bladework is not a self-sufficient talent in itself; command of the Force complements this talent; and combination of these talents define the performance of a Force-wielder.

In pure bladework, Obi-Wan could be possibly as good as Yoda and/or Mace but he lacks in command of the Force to hang with them in an actual fight. This is why Yoda advices him to not confront Sidious.

Obi-Wan wasn't on par with Sidious in combat prowess during the Clone Wars due to his much lower command of the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And whatever newer canon shows the movies will always remain the highest form of canon, which shows Dooku in ROTS battling both Kenobi and Skywalker in their prime, parrying BOTH their strikes with ONE hand, then smacking Skywalker against the wall whilst simultaneously Force choking Kenobi with absolute ease.

Doesn't really seem to me like age was getting the better of him at all.
You think that Dooku for all his training and talent would end up performing like a mook after 3 years? He hadn't reached his breaking point yet.

Plan was to lure Anakin to the dark side; So Dooku didn't knock him out with his Force powers like he did to Obi-Wan. Instead he confronted Anakin on the latter's strong point and lost. He ended up exhausting his Force-reserves much quicker in this manner because he wasn't in his youth or prime condition.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What that shows is that Sidious went all out with his Force powers right from the beginning of his fight with Yoda. Something he didn't do against Mace.
He had learned something from his previous duel with Mace perhaps. But still made a miscalculation. He even attempted to run away after enduring a Force push but Yoda blocked his path.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace had back up at the beginning of the fight which force Sidious to get into a close up fight with them which stayed confined to quite a narrow space.

So yeah. Very different circumstances.
Are you implying that Sidious couldn't use FL or FP in this setting? Or Mace couldn't use his Jedi powers in this setting?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not really. It was always Lucas's intent for Yoda to be no.1 and Mace no.2. Newer canon hasn't suggested otherwise at all.
This might be the case but Mace packed some talents that Yoda didn't.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No. But I've seen Dooku do that quite casually in ROTS.
He actually separates them. Nothing like the feat of Satele.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and I have seen Savage fight off a whoel load of Destroyer droids surrounding him, and then use a Force wave that put down all those droids plus 2 pretty powerful Jedi.

And I've seen Asajj fight off the same Jedi and when she was cornered Force choke them both.
Both of these are very different events in comparison to the one which I described. Fighting two Jedi simultaneously is not impossible and neither is unleashing Force powers something unique. Satele's feat is very different in its nature then these feats and much more taxing.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is an assessment based on all of his performances throughout. Specially focus upon Dooku's history with Anakin.

Geonosis: Dooku defeats Anakin
Tatooine: Stalemate
Naboo: Dooku subdues Anakin with help of MagnaGuards
Tythe: Dooku retreats
Invisible Hand: Anakin defeats Dooku

It is obvious that Anakin is growing in power with passage of time but should we assume that Dooku is somehow immune to the negative fallout of the dark side practices? Dooku was already very old when he left the Jedi Order. Their was only so much he could in his 80s.

Sidious was in search of a young apprentice for multiple reasons.

You've noted yourself that Anakin is growing in power. That in itself explains that. So we don't need to assume anything about Dooku getting weaker. It makes perfect sense as it is.

The fact that Dooku actually performed better in ROTS (for a while) than he did on other occasions against Anakin actually prove he wasn't getting weaker.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dynamics of each battle are different; Savage and Ventress are young individuals and it doesn't surprises me if they have fought the duo of Anakin and Obi-Wan and vice versa on multiple occasions.

Dooku handled the duo of Savage and Opress on the basis of his much greater command of the Force and experience.

It's strange your saying this, because below you were just telling me that Saber Prowess and Command of the Force go hand in hand.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Now would you say that Yoda will struggle against Savage and Asajj? Or would rather assume that Dooku is showing signs of aging?

Well no, because Yoda's too fast for them and they can't handle his command of the Force. Dooku was fast enough and strong enough in the Force to go toe to toe with Yoda. But those 2 are not.

On the other hand those 2 are fast enough and strong enough to combine their efforts and give Dooku trouble. Though it is confirmed that he was still their superior.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is strange! You accept the logic behind my assertion but not the assertion itself?

Because the logic of newer canon taking preference over old quotes is fair enough. That doesn't make your interpretation of the CW events as canon though.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is obvious from the developments during the Clone Wars that Dooku is getting past his prime condition.

It really isn't. Let's see, when he's drugged and blind he fights off Ventress and 2 Nightsisters. Then blasts them all with Force Lightning ftw.

He easily toys with Opress in their training session. Easily lifts Multiple stone pillars and keeps them levitated without any apparent strain.

He bests Ventress and Opress one on one in close quarter combat. He only takes a few seconds to batter Ventress (after a long fight against 2 opponents).

He fends off all of an enraged Skywalker's full on blows one handed fighting defensively. He actually bests him with his Force Lightning.

Then it comes to the end of the Clone Wars and before Anakin gets enraged he actually tools Prime Kenobi and Skywalker together!

So you need to stop assuming he's got so weak just because some handbook says that the Dark side takes a toll. Maybe it hadn't taken a toll on him yet.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin wouldn't be as powerful as Mace and Yoda during the events of ROTS. Mace and Yoda were much older and more learned in the ways of the Force then Anakin.

So was Dooku.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is unwise to assume that Anakin in just few years matched or exceeded Yoda and Mace in skill and power.

Would have been unwise to think he surpassed Dooku before watching ROTS. But he did.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, their is no such thing as pure lightsaber combat; power/command of the Force always complement martial abilities.

You specifically distinguished the 2 when noting his fight against Opress and Ventress.

There is clear evidence throughout the Mythos to show using the Force in Lightsaber combat and using it in the form of TK and/or FL are 2 completely different talents.

Skywalker never matched Dooku in TK, but he clearly surpassed him in Saber combat.

Mace beat Sidious in Saber combat but clearly wasn't his equal in Force powers.

Then there's people like Galen Marek who obviously are not as talented in Saber combat as they are in TK and FL.

There's too many examples to just ignore this. Plus Dooku specifically makes the distinction in AOTC.




Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
ROTS movie offers sufficient hint;

When the time came to confront both the Sith Master and his Apprentice; Yoda adviced Obi-Wan to confront Anakin by explicitly telling him that he is not powerful enough to handle Sidious and himself went to face the Sith Master.

How can you overlook this very significant hint?

Which really mean nothing. Because Kenobi also wasn't powerful enough to fight Count Dooku and yet Skywalker defeated him. How can you forget that?

Also you don't hold much weight to Yoda's assessment of Dooku's abilities, but suddenly think he can say no wrong when assessing Kenobi's??



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He had learned something from his previous duel with Mace perhaps. But still made a miscalculation. He even attempted to run away after enduring a Force push but Yoda blocked his path.

And yet he never tried to run from Mace Windu.. Hmmm


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Are you implying that Sidious couldn't use FL or FP in this setting? Or Mace couldn't use his Jedi powers in this setting?



Well there was 4 of them. They all had Sabers to block his Lightning.

Sidious had to blitz them in Sabers to stand a chance. And what do you think Mace's TK would do to Sidious?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am bringing up CWC feats because of people blatantly ignoring logical powerscaling. Based on feats Galen Marek should have been more than capable of shitstomping Vader, and even Sidious.

In TFU I, Rahm Kota casually rips a piece of a space station off and sends it into the atmosphere. The same Kota who is ruthlessly and easily disposed of by Vader.

When Starkiller doesn't believe he can move the Star Destroyer Kota says something akin to 'You're a Jedi, size doesn't matter.'

I do not doubt that in TFU/ CWC depictions Yoda, Mace and Dooku would also be able to replicate many of Marek's feats. Espcially considering he seems to be on the same level of Vader. He doesn't really seem to ever totally outclass him.

For those who assume that Marek trumps Vitiate in the context of feats; bad example.

Their are Dark Councilers who easily outgun Marek in command of the Force. Darth Jadus, as an example, saves his 600m long Dreadnought (Dominator) from disintegration in the space with his power in the Force, if the story pans out in this manner depending upon the choices of the player.

And while Imperial Intelligence argues that Darth Jadus is second to the Emperor in power; another source argues that Darth Marr is the most powerful Dark Counciler during the era of Satele Shan.

Therefore, it is foolish to underestimate Vitiate's powers. Even in the combat performance, Vitiate trumps Marek badly. In a hypothetical clash between these two characters, Marek stands no chance.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
For those who assume that Marek trumps Vitiate in the context of feats; bad example.

In feats Marek trumps virtually everyone. But anyone who actually believes Vitiate is inferior to Marek is a fool.



That's true, do we see the context on how he prevented it though?



I'd believe it. Especially after the second war, he has the largest sphere of influence, with Baras and Decimus dead he has complete control over the military.



The gap between him and Marek are there. I do believe Sidious and Vitiate are fairly close in force powers.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You've noted yourself that Anakin is growing in power. That in itself explains that. So we don't need to assume anything about Dooku getting weaker. It makes perfect sense as it is.

The fact that Dooku actually performed better in ROTS (for a while) than he did on other occasions against Anakin actually prove he wasn't getting weaker.
I don't think so. Dooku's struggles in single combat during the Clone Wars indicate that he his getting past his prime age. To assume otherwise would give the impression that other individuals are becoming strong enough to handle Yoda.

During a Clone Wars episode in which Dooku is captured by pirates: http://starwars.com/explore/the-clone-wars/ep111/#

-Anakin and Obi-Wan muse about the aging of Dooku.

Big hint from the authors.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's strange your saying this, because below you were just telling me that Saber Prowess and Command of the Force go hand in hand.
I see nothing here that contradicts my point.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well no, because Yoda's too fast for them and they can't handle his command of the Force. Dooku was fast enough and strong enough in the Force to go toe to toe with Yoda. But those 2 are not.

On the other hand those 2 are fast enough and strong enough to combine their efforts and give Dooku trouble. Though it is confirmed that he was still their superior.
This really makes no sense. Savage is fast enough to duel with Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously. Asajj is also fast enough to do the same. Heck, Asajj and Savage have traded lightsaber blows with Dooku on individual basis. So how come you are assuming that these individuals would't be able to duel Yoda singlehandedly? Something doesn't adds up well here; wait! It is your assumption that Dooku is perfectly fine regardless of his dark side practices and extreme age. Make your choice.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Because the logic of newer canon taking preference over old quotes is fair enough. That doesn't make your interpretation of the CW events as canon though.
See above! I have offered reasonable hint.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It really isn't. Let's see, when he's drugged and blind he fights off Ventress and 2 Nightsisters. Then blasts them all with Force Lightning ftw.

He easily toys with Opress in their training session. Easily lifts Multiple stone pillars and keeps them levitated without any apparent strain.

He bests Ventress and Opress one on one in close quarter combat. He only takes a few seconds to batter Ventress (after a long fight against 2 opponents).

He fends off all of an enraged Skywalker's full on blows one handed fighting defensively. He actually bests him with his Force Lightning.

Then it comes to the end of the Clone Wars and before Anakin gets enraged he actually tools Prime Kenobi and Skywalker together!

So you need to stop assuming he's got so weak just because some handbook says that the Dark side takes a toll. Maybe it hadn't taken a toll on him yet.
Did I said that Dooku's power have diminished by the end of Clone Wars? Nope. So your statements do not add up or that you are unable to follow my point properly. My point of contention is that Dooku gets weaker due to the toll of dark side practices on him (he had been involved with these practices for over a decade); however, I have stated several times that he haven't reached a dead end yet; he still packed considerable punch at the end of the Clone Wars but that he was no longer as strong as he was when he fought against Yoda in Geonosis.

About the points you made:

1. I never said that Dooku's powers have become ineffective.

2. I have seen this footage. Once again! I don't understand that how this example helps your case or counters my assertion? That same Savage later on gives Dooku serious trouble. Think.

3. He subdues Asajj with his Force powers to quickly end the fight. This is the difference.

4. He stills relies on his MagnaGuards to assist him in this fight (the one of Naboo, correct?) and the distraction they afford him grants him the opportunity to use his FL on Anakin to subdue him.

5. He works according to the plan; which is to incapacitate Obi-Wan and create the circumstances to lure the Anakin to the dark side. It is obvious that Dooku could handle both with his Force powers (his turf) but he made a grave miscalculation; he wasn't in the positon to fight Anakin and Obi-Wan with his martial skills during this time. Those days were gone by now.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So was Dooku.
Yes, but he wasn't in the position to fight Anakin on the latter's turf by now. He apparently lacked the strength he once possessed for this kind of fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Would have been unwise to think he surpassed Dooku before watching ROTS. But he did.
I am talking about him being a match for Yoda and Mace at this point.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You specifically distinguished the 2 when noting his fight against Opress and Ventress.
Don't bother with semantics; follow the argument.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There is clear evidence throughout the Mythos to show using the Force in Lightsaber combat and using it in the form of TK and/or FL are 2 completely different talents.
Force is always in the use; be it in to influence martial abilities or to unleash Force powers. Continue to read below.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Skywalker never matched Dooku in TK, but he clearly surpassed him in Saber combat.
Difference is that Dooku demonstrates Jedi Consular like talents and Anakin demonstrates Jedi Knight like talents. Jedi Consulars are very competent in the use of the Force powers. Jedi Knights are very competent in the use of martial skills. Now this doesn't implies that a Jedi Consular cannot be competent in martial context or that a Jedi Knight cannot be competent in the use of the Force powers. It is possible to be competent in both aspects.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace beat Sidious in Saber combat but clearly wasn't his equal in Force powers.
Same as above. While Sidious was formidable with the blade, Mace's unique talent changed the game in his favour. Picture is not always black and white; their can be exceptions and these exceptions are linked with special talents.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Then there's people like Galen Marek who obviously are not as talented in Saber combat as they are in TK and FL.
Falls in the same boat as Jedi Consular or Sith Inquisitor do.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There's too many examples to just ignore this. Plus Dooku specifically makes the distinction in AOTC.
They all fit in well.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Which really mean nothing. Because Kenobi also wasn't powerful enough to fight Count Dooku and yet Skywalker defeated him. How can you forget that?
Both Anakin and Kenobi were not in the position to contend with Dooku on his turf; the use of the Force powers.

This point is intended to counter your assertion that Kenobi can somehow contend with Sidious. He cannot.

If Kenobi handled the brothers simultaneously, this was his turf. He was a Jedi Knight and his martial abilities had to be excellent.

Sidious was also competent in martial aspect but his incredible command of the Force made him an overwhelming opponent. This is who he outgunned 3 celebrated swordsmen with ease and also defeated the brothers. Only exceptionally powerful Jedi Knights and/or Jedi Consulars could challenge him. Mace fit the bill as an exceptionally powerful Jedi Knight while Yoda fit the bill as an exceptionally powerful Jedi Consular.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also you don't hold much weight to Yoda's assessment of Dooku's abilities, but suddenly think he can say no wrong when assessing Kenobi's??
I have stated that Yoda is not in the position to determine that how Dooku would rank in skill and power in history. He was certainly in a good position to constrast Dooku with all other Jedi whom he have trained and met.

It would be expected of Yoda to know where Obi-Wan stands in the big picture in power and skill; you think that Yoda didn't knew that Obi-Wan failed against Dooku several times? So would Yoda be misguiding him in the context of Sidious?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet he never tried to run from Mace Windu.. Hmmm
He did not suspected that the Jedi could be this competent. His victory over the brothers probably clouded his judgement. You see? It all adds up well.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well there was 4 of them. They all had Sabers to block his Lightning.
But not telekinetic assaults.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious had to blitz them in Sabers to stand a chance. And what do you think Mace's TK would do to Sidious?
He could knock them off balance with his telekinetic abilities, if he wished to. Though he decided to end the fight as quickly as possible. If he had prolonged the fight, it would have been possible for all the Jedi to grow comfortable in handling his dueling assaults. The element of surprise worked well against 3 Jedi at least.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
In feats Marek trumps virtually everyone. But anyone who actually believes Vitiate is inferior to Marek is a fool.
This assures my POV that feats aren't the only medium through which the competency of a character should be judged.

Vitiate will put Marek out of comission without much effort. Heck, Marek would end up getting mind dominated easily.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That's true, do we see the context on how he prevented it though?
He is inside the ship when attempts are made to destroy it. Many die in the process but Darth Jadus uses his power in the Force to prevent the disintegration by holding the ship in one piece. Many components of the ship fall apart but Jadus forces all of them back in to the ship in their original positions. I believe that this is indication of his telekinetic abilities.

Insane!!! Absolutely insane.

The player is then sent to the ship and he have the choice to either join Darth Jadus or die, if I recall correctly.

Heck, this Sith Lord can instill pain and terror in to many individuals around him by his mere presence. He is also extremely proficient in the use of FL and such.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I'd believe it. Especially after the second war, he has the largest sphere of influence, with Baras and Decimus dead he has complete control over the military.
Indeed!

Darth Marr is a "master of the dark side" and incredibly skilled in the arts of lightsaber combat as per SWTORE.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The gap between him and Marek are there. I do believe Sidious and Vitiate are fairly close in force powers.
Positive sign.

------

@ Mizukage Yoda

You are correct about Barsen'thor. This Jedi is insanely powerful. She contends with threats that most will fail at.

One of the companions of this Jedi, Nadia Grell is also very powerful.

More about Darth Marr:

Tales spread through the Republic of the masked Dark Council member who routed whole armies and deflected assaults more thoroughly than any planetary shield. (SWTORE)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't think so. Dooku's struggles in single combat during the Clone Wars indicate that he his getting past his prime age. To assume otherwise would give the impression that other individuals are becoming strong enough to handle Yoda.

During a Clone Wars episode in which Dooku is captured by pirates: http://starwars.com/explore/the-clone-wars/ep111/#

-Anakin and Obi-Wan muse about the aging of Dooku.

Big hint from the authors.


I see nothing here that contradicts my point.

That was just a joke. It wasn't a hint. Dooku replies "I would kill you both now if I didn't have to drag your bodies." Was that another hint that Dooku is stronger than both these youngsters? No.

Forget hints and let's stick to facts.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This really makes no sense. Savage is fast enough to duel with Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously. Asajj is also fast enough to do the same. Heck, Asajj and Savage have traded lightsaber blows with Dooku on individual basis. So how come you are assuming that these individuals would't be able to duel Yoda singlehandedly? Something doesn't adds up well here; wait! It is your assumption that Dooku is perfectly fine regardless of his dark side practices and extreme age. Make your choice.

Being faster doesn't automatically mean speed blitz.

Clearly Dooku was faster than Opress which he showed when he kept dodging and evading all his strikes.





Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Did I said that Dooku's power have diminished by the end of Clone Wars? Nope. So your statements do not add up or that you are unable to follow my point properly. My point of contention is that Dooku gets weaker due to the toll of dark side practices on him (he had been involved with these practices for over a decade); however, I have stated several times that he haven't reached a dead end yet; he still packed considerable punch at the end of the Clone Wars but that he was no longer as strong as he was when he fought against Yoda in Geonosis.

About the points you made:

1. I never said that Dooku's powers have become ineffective.

2. I have seen this footage. Once again! I don't understand that how this example helps your case or counters my assertion? That same Savage later on gives Dooku serious trouble. Think.

3. He subdues Asajj with his Force powers to quickly end the fight. This is the difference.

4. He stills relies on his MagnaGuards to assist him in this fight (the one of Naboo, correct?) and the distraction they afford him grants him the opportunity to use his FL on Anakin to subdue him.

5. He works according to the plan; which is to incapacitate Obi-Wan and create the circumstances to lure the Anakin to the dark side. It is obvious that Dooku could handle both with his Force powers (his turf) but he made a grave miscalculation; he wasn't in the positon to fight Anakin and Obi-Wan with his martial skills during this time. Those days were gone by now.


Yes, but he wasn't in the position to fight Anakin on the latter's turf by now. He apparently lacked the strength he once possessed for this kind of fight.

Look I don't actually mind the idea of AOTC Dooku being Prime Dooku.

I'm just not seeing you provide sufficient evidence to start believing that to be fact.

You've said it yourself you've given "hints" and that Dooku still clearly packed a heavy punch at the end of the Clone Wars. So evidence is really lacking.

Anakin and Obi-Wan were simply getting more powerful during the Clone Wars.

Oh and for you point 4, I was referring to when he floors Skywalker with a FL blast in "Crisis on Naboo."


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am talking about him being a match for Yoda and Mace at this point.

He was not on their level with his Force TK. Just like he wasn't on Dooku's level in that regard. But a Saber fight is a different realm. He best Dooku there and you can't guarantee he'd be no match for Mace or Yoda in that regard.

Of course the Force TK difference between Yoda and Anakin is just too much to the point where he can't even put up a fight. Not so with Dooku/Mace.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Don't bother with semantics; follow the argument.

It's not semantics. It's a request for you to keep your arguments consistent. You seem to be seperating Sabers and TK when it suits your argument and then combining them as one and the same where it again suits you.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Force is always in the use; be it in to influence martial abilities or to unleash Force powers. Continue to read below.


Difference is that Dooku demonstrates Jedi Consular like talents and Anakin demonstrates Jedi Knight like talents. Jedi Consulars are very competent in the use of the Force powers. Jedi Knights are very competent in the use of martial skills. Now this doesn't implies that a Jedi Consular cannot be competent in martial context or that a Jedi Knight cannot be competent in the use of the Force powers. It is possible to be competent in both aspects.


Same as above. While Sidious was formidable with the blade, Mace's unique talent changed the game in his favour. Picture is not always black and white; their can be exceptions and these exceptions are linked with special talents.

I'm not sure what your point is here. You seem to be giving a reason for the difference in Saber Prowess and Force Prowess attaching it to this Knight and Consualr concept.

But so what? The fact is they are different talents and both need to be analyzed seperately to decide who would win an all out.




Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Both Anakin and Kenobi were not in the position to contend with Dooku on his turf; the use of the Force powers.

And yet Anakin defeated him. Although Kenobi clearly couldn't.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This point is intended to counter your assertion that Kenobi can somehow contend with Sidious. He cannot.

If Kenobi handled the brothers simultaneously, this was his turf. He was a Jedi Knight and his martial abilities had to be excellent.

Sidious was also competent in martial aspect but his incredible command of the Force made him an overwhelming opponent. This is who he outgunned 3 celebrated swordsmen with ease and also defeated the brothers. Only exceptionally powerful Jedi Knights and/or Jedi Consulars could challenge him. Mace fit the bill as an exceptionally powerful Jedi Knight while Yoda fit the bill as an exceptionally powerful Jedi Consular.

First of all I never stated Kenobi can contend with Sidious.

You were implying that the proof that Yoda, Mace and Sidious are all above Dooku, Skywalker and Kenobi is that Yoda sent Kenobi to kill Skywalker even though he said he couldn't contend with Sidious.

All I said is that logic is not flawless because we also know from the same movie that Kenobi can not contend with Count Dooku, who Skywalker can defeat. And yet Yoda still sent Kenobi to kill Skywalker.

A>B>C didn't work very well at all in ROTS. Hence the reason to sub-analyze fights into Sabers, Force, All-Out as well as the environment and context of those fights.





Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have stated that Yoda is not in the position to determine that how Dooku would rank in skill and power in history. He was certainly in a good position to constrast Dooku with all other Jedi whom he have trained and met.

It would be expected of Yoda to know where Obi-Wan stands in the big picture in power and skill; you think that Yoda didn't knew that Obi-Wan failed against Dooku several times? So would Yoda be misguiding him in the context of Sidious?

So then Yoda's judgment on Dooku being more learned in the Force than Mace and being the stronger student is reliable. As well as his judgement that Windu (at best) may be Dooku's equal in Sabers. Thank You


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He did not suspected that the Jedi could be this competent. His victory over the brothers probably clouded his judgement. You see? It all adds up well.

I'm sure he had an idea of what all the Jedi were capable of. He was keeping a close eye on them all those years.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
But not telekinetic assaults.


He could knock them off balance with his telekinetic abilities, if he wished to. Though he decided to end the fight as quickly as possible. If he had prolonged the fight, it would have been possible for all the Jedi to grow comfortable in handling his dueling assaults. The element of surprise worked well against 3 Jedi at least.

Your proving my point. He did what he had to in that situation where he was confronted by 4 Jedi. One who is the second most powerful Jedi in the Order.

And look at the location as well. He was forced into a close up brawl with Windu. It was a very different fight to the Yoda one. So certainly not proof that Mace>Sidious>Yoda.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That was just a joke. It wasn't a hint. Dooku replies "I would kill you both now if I didn't have to drag your bodies." Was that another hint that Dooku is stronger than both these youngsters? No.

Forget hints and let's stick to facts.
It was a mock in (in-universe context); but a hint for audience in (real world context). Heck, Dooku is captured by some pirates; this is a sign that he has realistic limitations. But fans want to believe otherwise. Continue to read below.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Being faster doesn't automatically mean speed blitz.

Clearly Dooku was faster than Opress which he showed when he kept dodging and evading all his strikes.
Agreed. However, Savage giving him a challenge indicates that Dooku is no longer in his prime condition. Are you willing to assume that Savage would give Yoda challenge?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Look I don't actually mind the idea of AOTC Dooku being Prime Dooku.

I'm just not seeing you provide sufficient evidence to start believing that to be fact.
I have offered sufficient explanation. Repeating myself again and again is not going to help this discussion. You ponder over my statements for a while and then make up your mind.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You've said it yourself you've given "hints" and that Dooku still clearly packed a heavy punch at the end of the Clone Wars. So evidence is really lacking.
It is my observation. If you want a explicit statement from a novel or something; you are grasping at straws.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin and Obi-Wan were simply getting more powerful during the Clone Wars.
You mean to imply that they began to rival Mace and Yoda?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and for you point 4, I was referring to when he floors Skywalker with a FL blast in "Crisis on Naboo."
Here;

WeCuEx-JYP0

You see how MagnaGuards made difference?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He was not on their level with his Force TK. Just like he wasn't on Dooku's level in that regard. But a Saber fight is a different realm. He best Dooku there and you can't guarantee he'd be no match for Mace or Yoda in that regard.
Obi-Wan was a match for Anakin in most aspects. However, Yoda forbade him from confronting Sidious whom Mace had subdued not long ago. Yoda was in the position to contend with Sidious in one-on-one fashion but he also struggled. Therefore, Anakin and Obi-Wan, at the end of Clone Wars, are still not formidable enough to contend with the likes of Yoda, Mace and Sidious. This is what GL canon implies.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course the Force TK difference between Yoda and Anakin is just too much to the point where he can't even put up a fight. Not so with Dooku/Mace.
Indeed!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's not semantics. It's a request for you to keep your arguments consistent. You seem to be seperating Sabers and TK when it suits your argument and then combining them as one and the same where it again suits you.
I don't separate martial aspects from command of the Force. These aspects are much more intertwined then some fans think. It is these fans who have wrongly differentiated these two aspects for a long long time.

This is my statement: "Dooku handled the duo of Savage and Opress on the basis of his much greater command of the Force and experience. He was also a formidable duelist so all of these factors helped him."

Dooku received formal training in lightsaber combat and also in the use of the offensive applications of the Force, correct?

Now what happens when a Force-wielder duels? Force-wielder can use the Force to augment his/her physicial abilities. In addition, the Force-wielder attempts to anticipate the moves of his/her opponents on the basis of precognitive abilities which are also linked with the Force. So how can a Force-wielder use the Force to augment his/her martial competencies? The Force-wielder's "command of the Force" is the answer.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm not sure what your point is here. You seem to be giving a reason for the difference in Saber Prowess and Force Prowess attaching it to this Knight and Consualr concept.
You conveniently overlooked this part in my statement:

"Difference is that Dooku demonstrates Jedi Consular like talents and Anakin demonstrates Jedi Knight like talents. Jedi Consulars are very competent in the use of the Force powers. Jedi Knights are very competent in the use of martial skills. Now this doesn't implies that a Jedi Consular cannot be competent in martial context or that a Jedi Knight cannot be competent in the use of the Force powers. It is possible to be competent in both aspects."

During the Clone Wars, we saw that Anakin was shaping himself in to a formidable warrior; his greatest core competency is his martial prowess and his command of the Force complements him in this aspect. Dooku, while being competent in this aspect, no longer packs the punch to handle a formidable warrior on his/her own turf at the end of Clone Wars; he already struggles against Anakin in his encounters prior to the one aboard Invisible Hand. 3 years back, Dooku was strong enough to compete with Yoda in this fashion for a while but situation have changed now. What is so difficult to understand here? The hint is obvious that Anakin have become more powerful and Dooku is no longer in his prime condition.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But so what? The fact is they are different talents and both need to be analyzed seperately to decide who would win an all out.
If this is the case then how come Bane handled Kas'im? How come Zannah handled Bane? How come Sidious blitzed 3 celebrated swordmasters in seconds? How did Revan subdued an (empowered) Imperial Guard individual in a minor exchange of blades? What do you think of these examples?

You may analyze these aspects separately but you won't get satisfactory answers in this manner.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet Anakin defeated him. Although Kenobi clearly couldn't.
Dooku didn't chose to engage Obi-Wan in the same manner as he did Anakin. Try to understand the difference and my point.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
First of all I never stated Kenobi can contend with Sidious.

You were implying that the proof that Yoda, Mace and Sidious are all above Dooku, Skywalker and Kenobi is that Yoda sent Kenobi to kill Skywalker even though he said he couldn't contend with Sidious.

All I said is that logic is not flawless because we also know from the same movie that Kenobi can not contend with Count Dooku, who Skywalker can defeat. And yet Yoda still sent Kenobi to kill Skywalker.

A>B>C didn't work very well at all in ROTS. Hence the reason to sub-analyze fights into Sabers, Force, All-Out as well as the environment and context of those fights.
You are confused DP; you miss crucial points. You over-simply things.

At Geonosis, Dooku packed the strength and power to hang with Yoda for a while. 3 years later, he cannot compete with Anakin and Obi-Wan in this fashion. So while Anakin and Obi-Wan have become stronger; Dooku have become weaker. This fits in well with the revelation that Obi-Wan cannot compete with Sidious at any level but he could compete with Anakin in all aspects. In contrast, Yoda can compete with Sidious.

What is the rocket science here?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So then Yoda's judgment on Dooku being more learned in the Force than Mace and being the stronger student is reliable. As well as his judgement that Windu (at best) may be Dooku's equal in Sabers. Thank You
In his prime Jedi days, he could be a match for Mace at that time. However, Mace continued to follow the path of light while Dooku adopted the path of dark. Dark side practices made Dooku stronger and he reached a point that he could contend with Yoda for a while. However, these same practices apparently began to take toll over Dooku's physical well-being and the end result was bad for him. Dark side practices can accelerate aging factor.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm sure he had an idea of what all the Jedi were capable of. He was keeping a close eye on them all those years.
Indeed

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your proving my point. He did what he had to in that situation where he was confronted by 4 Jedi. One who is the second most powerful Jedi in the Order.
This doesn't precludes the possibility that he could not use his Force powers in that setting. I am not proving your point in any way.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And look at the location as well. He was forced into a close up brawl with Windu. It was a very different fight to the Yoda one. So certainly not proof that Mace>Sidious>Yoda.
This is your perception. Sidious's fight with the brothers gave him confident that he could handle any kind of foe with his martial abilities. However, he learned his lesson after confronting a Jedi strike team in his office. It all adds up with the aid of latest canon developments.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It was a mock in (in-universe context); but a hint for audience in (real world context). Heck, Dooku is captured by some pirates; this is a sign that he has realistic limitations. But fans want to believe otherwise. Continue to read below.

Don't go there with the pirates. Filoni made it perfectly clear in the commentary to that episode that it had nothing to do with Dooku being weak, but just that the Jedi are defeated by sheer numbers as proven in AOTC.

Heck Dooku didn't even have his Lightsaber on him and was completely ambushed.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Agreed. However, Savage giving him a challenge indicates that Dooku is no longer in his prime condition. Are you willing to assume that Savage would give Yoda challenge?

First of all Savage only gave him a challenge in a close quarter 2 on 1 match.

Second Dooku was never Yoda's equal anyway.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have offered sufficient explanation. Repeating myself again and again is not going to help this discussion. You ponder over my statements for a while and then make up your mind.

Problem is your "sufficient" explanation does not make it the truth. (Though I'm not ruling out the possibility of Dooku getting weaker year by year in his old age.)


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is my observation. If you want a explicit statement from a novel or something; you are grasping at straws.

LOL Are you serious. Wanting a quote would be grasping for straws, but accepting your personal view of events as canon would be more reasonable?


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You mean to imply that they began to rival Mace and Yoda?

In Saber combat? Possibly. Especially Skywalker should at least be comparable in that regard.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here;


You see how MagnaGuards made difference?

No. He beat the Magnaguards first before he confronted Dooku. And Dooku made no move on Skywalker while he was occupied with the MG's.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Obi-Wan was a match for Anakin in most aspects. However, Yoda forbade him from confronting Sidious whom Mace had subdued not long ago. Yoda was in the position to contend with Sidious in one-on-one fashion but he also struggled. Therefore, Anakin and Obi-Wan, at the end of Clone Wars, are still not formidable enough to contend with the likes of Yoda, Mace and Sidious. This is what GL canon implies.

They'd be terribly outmatched by Yoda and Sidious's force powers. But Anakin should be capable of at least challenging Windu. He tanked all Dooku's Force attacks in the above video you provided. I doubt Windu's force attacks would be more lethal.

But the point is the logic of your implications are flawed. Because similarly Obi-Wan was a match for Anakin and yet was no match for Dooku. Does that mean Anakin was similarly no match for Dooku.

This is where A>B>C fails without proper analysis of Sabers, Force, All-Out and the context of the fights.




Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

During the Clone Wars, we saw that Anakin was shaping himself in to a formidable warrior; his greatest core competency is his martial prowess and his command of the Force complements him in this aspect. Dooku, while being competent in this aspect, no longer packs the punch to handle a formidable warrior on his/her own turf at the end of Clone Wars; he already struggles against Anakin in his encounters prior to the one aboard Invisible Hand. 3 years back, Dooku was strong enough to compete with Yoda in this fashion for a while but situation have changed now. What is so difficult to understand here? The hint is obvious that Anakin have become more powerful and Dooku is no longer in his prime condition.

Or Anakin just became a lot more powerful. The End.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If this is the case then how come Bane handled Kas'im?

Wait a minute? Wasn't Kas'im winning the Saber fight through superior Saber skill when he switched to Jar Kai? And then Bane defeated him with a Force Blast?

That actually proves my point!

Another Example in NEWER Canon. Kenobi was the superior Saber duelist to Maul yet clearly no match for Maul in Force TK.

Heck Kenobi actually completely stomped Opress in Saber combat, whilst Opress has put Kenobi on his Ass multiple times with his Force TK.

Such differences are ESSENTIAL to note when considering A>B>C arguments.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You may analyze these aspects separately but you won't get satisfactory answers in this manner.

I'm afraid you definitely won't get satisfactory answers by not seperating them and the conditions of each fight. Otherwise Anakin>Dooku>>Obi-Wan=Anakin and Mace > Sidious > Yoda.

You honestly think Mace is actually MORE Powerful than Sidious/Yoda?


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku didn't chose to engage Obi-Wan in the same manner as he did Anakin. Try to understand the difference and my point.

What difference would that make? You just posted the video yourself of one of Dooku vs Skywalker fights where Skywalker is just shrugging off all Dooku's Force attacks. Something Kenobi clearly can't do.

Not to mention the ROTS novel makes it clear that Dooku's Knowledge of the Force had "become a joke" when confronting Skywalker.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Don't go there with the pirates. Filoni made it perfectly clear in the commentary to that episode that it had nothing to do with Dooku being weak, but just that the Jedi are defeated by sheer numbers as proven in AOTC.

Heck Dooku didn't even have his Lightsaber on him and was completely ambushed.
Dooku couldn't handle some pirates with his Force powers?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
First of all Savage only gave him a challenge in a close quarter 2 on 1 match.
Recheck the duel!

- At one point, Savage dueled Dooku in one-on-one basis and also send the latter Sith Lord crashing in to the wall, disarming him in the process on the basis of his command in the Force.

- At another point, Savage handled Dooku and Asajj simultaneously on the basis of his command in the Force; forcing them both to flee.

You see the point? If we dissect his talents, Savage would not be comparable to Asajj and Dooku in several ways but in collective fashion, Savage was effective enough to give both trouble and force them to flee.

This is why in a versus thread, "command of the Force" is such an important element. It influences all aspects of combat; be it martial combat or offensive use of the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Second Dooku was never Yoda's equal anyway.
Good! Now go back to page 6 and recheck your second post in it; what was your intent in that post?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Problem is your "sufficient" explanation does not make it the truth. (Though I'm not ruling out the possibility of Dooku getting weaker year by year in his old age.)

LOL Are you serious. Wanting a quote would be grasping for straws, but accepting your personal view of events as canon would be more reasonable?
I have been using the words such as "observation" and "hint" in this discussion. If their was a canonical quote, this debate would have ended long ago; don't you think?

I believe that my assertion fits well with Lucas's portrayals of these characters;

"At Geonosis, Dooku packed the strength and power to hang with Yoda for a while. 3 years later, he cannot compete with Anakin and Obi-Wan in this fashion. So while Anakin and Obi-Wan have become stronger; Dooku have become weaker. This fits in well with the revelation that Obi-Wan cannot compete with Sidious at any level but he could compete with Anakin in all aspects. In contrast, Yoda can compete with Sidious."

Do you have a better explanation? If yes, mention it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In Saber combat? Possibly. Especially Skywalker should at least be comparable in that regard.
Even if Anakin and Yoda engage in a pure lightsaber duel, Anakin would not be able to subdue Yoda due to the former not having comparable command of the Force. Yoda's position is different from that of Dooku. Yoda isn't involved in dark side practices that may accelerate his aging process prematurely. His species also lasts much longer then humans in endurance.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No. He beat the Magnaguards first before he confronted Dooku. And Dooku made no move on Skywalker while he was occupied with the MG's.
I got confused between the clips. The fight which I was talking about is this one:

Official link: http://starwars.com/explore/the-clone-wars/ep404/#!/media/trailer

This fight takes place prior to the fight which I cited earlier. In this fight, Dooku defeats Anakin with aid of MagnaGuards.

Even in Naboo, Dooku failed to subdue Anakin.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They'd be terribly outmatched by Yoda and Sidious's force powers. But Anakin should be capable of at least challenging Windu. He tanked all Dooku's Force attacks in the above video you provided. I doubt Windu's force attacks would be more lethal.
Anakin and Obi-Wan will put up some fight but will end up loosing.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But the point is the logic of your implications are flawed. Because similarly Obi-Wan was a match for Anakin and yet was no match for Dooku. Does that mean Anakin was similarly no match for Dooku.

This is where A>B>C fails without proper analysis of Sabers, Force, All-Out and the context of the fights.
Neither Anakin and nor Obi-Wan could contend with Dooku on his turf; use of Force powers. If Dooku could knock Obi-Wan out with his Force powers, he could do the same with Anakin. However, Dooku was no longer strong enough to contend with Anakin and Obi-Wan on their turf (lightsaber dueling) when they clashed aboard Invisible Hand. This isn't because Dooku was lacking in proficiency in lightsaber combat; but because he was no longer strong enough to match Anakin and/or Obi-Wan in martial aspects. In contrast, in Geonosis, he dueled 3 Jedi (including Yoda) and was still strong enough to plan his escape. You do the math.

It make sense to separate talents for a specific purpose. However, it makes no sense to separate talents in an all-out scenario. They all add up to define the effectiveness of a character in combat. How do you think that Dooku was able to fight off Anakin in Naboo? Because he was putting all of his talents to use in that fight (with no kind of plan to adhere to).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Or Anakin just became a lot more powerful. The End.
No. If this was the case, he would have demolished Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Wait a minute? Wasn't Kas'im winning the Saber fight through superior Saber skill when he switched to Jar Kai? And then Bane defeated him with a Force Blast?

That actually proves my point!
Bane was not as proficient in the use of lightsaber as Kas'im was. However, Bane's command of the dark side was greater then that of Kas'im's and this is why the former survived and succeeded. Bane called upon the Force to guide his hand; transformed his blade in to an extension of his will. This is how he held Kas'im at bay. He couldn't match each and every blow of Kas'im. He couldn't fight like that. I think that you should revisit the novel.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Another Example in NEWER Canon. Kenobi was the superior Saber duelist to Maul yet clearly no match for Maul in Force TK.
I have seen their fights; both could win or loose because their wasn't much power disparity between the two.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Heck Kenobi actually completely stomped Opress in Saber combat, whilst Opress has put Kenobi on his Ass multiple times with his Force TK.
Savage is not as proficient in the use of lightsaber. Also, don't just quote examples without proper context. Savage grows and changes with passage of time; his effectiveness increases accordingly. Their are duels in which Savage contends with both Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously so picture isn't so black and white.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Such differences are ESSENTIAL to note when considering A>B>C arguments.
And I find this approach flawed. Reason is that in this manner we are inclined to consider (less explored) characters as unable to contend with (more explored) characters regardless of their power, hype and position.

As an example: You think that Maul was lacking in bladework? He wasn't. However, he couldn't contend with Sidious because of the latter's much greater command of the Force. Sidious transformed himself in to an instrument of death and destruction with his command of the Force and managed to fight Maul in his terms in every aspect.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm afraid you definitely won't get satisfactory answers by not seperating them and the conditions of each fight. Otherwise Anakin>Dooku>>Obi-Wan=Anakin and Mace > Sidious > Yoda.
It is possible to determine the position of a character on the basis of several factors; how those characters are evaluated by other characters; feats; promotion; hype; performance in combat; accomplishments. Their are so many hints.

As per GL canon; Mace, Yoda and Sidious fall in the same tier. Whereas others rank lower then them.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You honestly think Mace is actually MORE Powerful than Sidious/Yoda?
He is in the same tier. Though Sidious further grows in power later on.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What difference would that make? You just posted the video yourself of one of Dooku vs Skywalker fights where Skywalker is just shrugging off all Dooku's Force attacks. Something Kenobi clearly can't do.
Skywalker do gets overwhelmed by Dooku's Force powers. Case in point: Star Wars Clone Wars Season 4 Episode 4.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not to mention the ROTS novel makes it clear that Dooku's Knowledge of the Force had "become a joke" when confronting Skywalker.
In Anakin's turf, yes.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku couldn't handle some pirates with his Force powers?


Recheck the duel!

- At one point, Savage dueled Dooku in one-on-one basis and also send the latter Sith Lord crashing in to the wall, disarming him in the process on the basis of his command in the Force.

- At another point, Savage handled Dooku and Asajj simultaneously on the basis of his command in the Force; forcing them both to flee.

You see the point? If we dissect his talents, Savage would not be comparable to Asajj and Dooku in several ways but in collective fashion, Savage was effective enough to give both trouble and force them to flee.

This is why in a versus thread, "command of the Force" is such an important element. It influences all aspects of combat; be it martial combat or offensive use of the Force.


Good! Now go back to page 6 and recheck your second post in it; what was your intent in that post?


I have been using the words such as "observation" and "hint" in this discussion. If their was a canonical quote, this debate would have ended long ago; don't you think?

I believe that my assertion fits well with Lucas's portrayals of these characters;


After careful consideration I think there may be some merit to the idea that Dooku was likely growing weaker in his last few years due to age. It's a reasonable assumption considering ANH Kenobi and TPM Qui-Gon were both supposed to be past their prime due to age. And Dooku was by far the oldest human in the PT. Around the same age as Palpatine was by ROTJ.

Also the newer canon is likely going to rewrite the timeline so that the CW was more than 3 years. We can see Ashoka and Boba physically maturing. And there's already been 5 seasons. There's no plan on cancelling it yet. Too many adventures for 3 years.

But your wrong with putting some of your examples down to age. The pirates was showing that the Jedi get defeated by pure numbers. That's ALL Jedi and Sith. Not just Dooku.

Case in example AOTC where the droids were going to defeat Many Jedi including Mace Windu.

And Opress only gave difficulty because he was fighting him and Opress continually one after the other while making sure he evades both. His one on one training session shows how hopelessly outmatched Opress was in a one on one.

My second post on page 6 was just explaining Dooku was able to put up a fight against Yoda. Go toe to toe for a while. I never suggested they were equals or that Dooku had a chance of winning. Yoda would have won. But then again according to the ROTS script Yoda also defeated Sidious in the Saber duel. So it's not exactly that bad. He did very well against the most powerful Jedi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
"At Geonosis, Dooku packed the strength and power to hang with Yoda for a while. 3 years later, he cannot compete with Anakin and Obi-Wan in this fashion. So while Anakin and Obi-Wan have become stronger; Dooku have become weaker. This fits in well with the revelation that Obi-Wan cannot compete with Sidious at any level but he could compete with Anakin in all aspects. In contrast, Yoda can compete with Sidious."

I still don't get your point here though. He did compete against Both Anakin and Obi-Wan. Fought them both off with just 1 Saber. Heck he very almost Stomped them Both!

Force Choked Kenobi with complete ease and simultaneously slam kicked Skywalker half way across the room on to his ass!







Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Even if Anakin and Yoda engage in a pure lightsaber duel, Anakin would not be able to subdue Yoda due to the former not having comparable command of the Force. Yoda's position is different from that of Dooku. Yoda isn't involved in dark side practices that may accelerate his aging process prematurely. His species also lasts much longer then humans in endurance.

Agreed. I've never even argued this point.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I got confused between the clips. The fight which I was talking about is this one:



This fight takes place prior to the fight which I cited earlier. In this fight, Dooku defeats Anakin with aid of MagnaGuards.

Even in Naboo, Dooku failed to subdue Anakin.

Yes because his capture was too important. Dooku needed that fight to be completely one sided. It wasn't time to prove he can still take him one on one.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin and Obi-Wan will put up some fight but will end up loosing.

Against who? Mace? And you mean both of them together, or individually.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Neither Anakin and nor Obi-Wan could contend with Dooku on his turf; use of Force powers. If Dooku could knock Obi-Wan out with his Force powers, he could do the same with Anakin.
However, Dooku was no longer strong enough to contend with Anakin and Obi-Wan on their turf (lightsaber dueling) when they clashed aboard Invisible Hand.

Yeah except he COULDN'T. He gave Skywalker his Most powerful blow (TK Plus FL) and still didn't KO him.

Whilst he took Kenobi out with ridiculous ease- mid-saber fight no less-As in on Their turf(like you call it).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This isn't because Dooku was lacking in proficiency in lightsaber combat; but because he was no longer strong enough to match Anakin and/or Obi-Wan in martial aspects. In contrast, in Geonosis, he dueled 3 Jedi (including Yoda) and was still strong enough to plan his escape. You do the math.

He never fought them both together on Geonosis. And they were A LOT weaker then anyway. Heck the novel makes it clear AOTC Skywalker alone gave Dooku some struggle.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It make sense to separate talents for a specific purpose. However, it makes no sense to separate talents in an all-out scenario. They all add up to define the effectiveness of a character in combat. How do you think that Dooku was able to fight off Anakin in Naboo? Because he was putting all of his talents to use in that fight (with no kind of plan to adhere to).

And yet he still couldn't take Anakin out. (You could say he sort of bested him with the FL+TK hit). But he couldn't do to him what he did to Obi-Wan.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No. If this was the case, he would have demolished Obi-Wan..

And yet Count Dooku did demolish him. On their TURF. Fighting both Skywalker and Kenobi mid-Saber fight!

This is exactly why YOU MUST seperate Sabers, Force and All-Out. Otherwise nothing makes sense at all.

You certainly haven't made any sense out of the Anakin>Dooku>>Obi-Wan=Anakin scenario.





Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have seen their fights; both could win or loose because their wasn't much power disparity between the two.

Obi-Wan was slightly better in Sabers. The difference in their Force TK Powers was considerably larger. Hence Maul couldn't defeat Kenobi in Sabers (even with the aid of Opress) but knocked Kenobi out with a Force Blast.

Maul could possibly challenge Dooku in an all out. Kenobi can't. And yet your right an all out fight between Kenobi and Maul could go either way.

Again this all only makes sense when we seperate Sabers, Force and All-Out.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Savage is not as proficient in the use of lightsaber. Also, don't just quote examples without proper context. Savage grows and changes with passage of time; his effectiveness increases accordingly. Their are duels in which Savage contends with both Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously so picture isn't so black and white.

Savage never improved much. His main power boost was from Mother Talzin. His training from Count Dooku only aided him a little. Because he hardly got any.

I'm not quoting anything out of context. In "Witches of the Mist" Opress floored both Anakin and Obi-Wan with Force Tk a few times. The first time he wasn't even in a rage. And he shoves their ship off a cliff. Certainly better TK than Obi-Wan has ever displayed.





Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As per GL canon; Mace, Yoda and Sidious fall in the same tier. Whereas others rank lower then them.

Where did he rank all 3 of them above Dooku and Skywalker? He didn't.




Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Skywalker do gets overwhelmed by Dooku's Force powers. Case in point: Star Wars Clone Wars Season 4 Episode 4.




Yeah after getting Battered by Magnaguards. And still with a combination of Force choke and FL, and even still you can see the exhaustion on his face after doing that.

Fact is he took out Obi-Wan with ridiculous ease. No Fl combo needed. No Magnaguards needed. He took him out Mid-Saber fight with a simple Choke.

He clearly can not do that to Skywalker.

So again Skywalker>Dooku>>>Kenobi=Anakin.

dooku is a match for sidious on his own. with ventress and savage sidious will be killed but will take either ventress or savage with him

Nick Gillard and George Lucas even said that Sidious, Mace, Anakin, Yoda, and Dooku were level 9 saber duelists, while Obi-Wan and OT Vader were level 8 saber duelists.

Soooo, yeah Skywalker is better in sabers than Obi-Wan.