Galen Marek vs Darth Maul

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XRKun
Sabers
Force
All out

Environment: Flat land

Who will win? And use feats to back up your claims, otherwise this topic will spiral into a flame war.

Intrepid37
Maul.

ROTJ Vader
Galen.

XRKun
WHy do you think this though? Feats?

In sabers Maul should easily win.
In Force Galen should wreck Maul

All out i dont know. I havent read the TFU novel to accurately judge Galen's saber ability.

Mizukage Yoda
Galen Marek takes this.

XRKun
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Galen Marek takes this.

In all 3? In sabers? In Force? In all out? Explain.

Nephthys
Marek whoops him. He might lose in sabers though.

Col. Valerian
All-out, Marek. Sabers, possibly Maul. Not sure though. Force, Marek of course.

In the TFU novel, he managed to defeat Vader in saber combat and his skills with a lightsaber are described as "near perfect". He's no pushover in that area, either.

Intrepid37
Marek never used direct telekinetic attacks against any of the Jedi he fought.

Master Han
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Marek never used direct telekinetic attacks against any of the Jedi he fought.

I was under the impression that he did, against Shaak Ti.

Nephthys
Except Rahm Kota.

And Kazden Paradus.

And Darth Vader.

Edit: And Shaak Ti?

But yeah, other than that....

Doctorwho?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Marek never used direct telekinetic attacks against any of the Jedi he fought.

Well when I play as Marek he dies all the time...he cant be that good a jedi/sith

Master Han
Originally posted by Doctorwho?
Well when I play as Marek he dies all the time...

You left out the part where he reverses time to come back to life.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by XRKun
In all 3? In sabers? In Force? In all out? Explain. '


In sabers Darth Maul has the edge due to superior accolades and superior feats. In the force however Galen Marek is a monster and will very likely dominate Maul. And in all-out, its closer but Marek still takes it. Maul is around the level of Shaak Ti.

Master Han
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Maul is around the level of Shaak Ti.

I think Maul's quite a bit above Shaak Ti.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Master Han
I was under the impression that he did, against Shaak Ti.
Pretty sure he only used lightning.

What I mean is, he might've thrown objects at them, like the bones he threw at Maris Brood, but he never directly TK'ed them like Sidious did Maul.

Unless there's huge objects like a shield generator for him to throw on Maul, Marek would get wrecked in a duel.

Doctorwho?
Originally posted by Master Han
You left out the part where he reverses time to come back to life.
And the part where it kept happening and I get angry and use aggressive negotiations to destroy my controller cause I Kee- I mean Galen keeps dying..

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Master Han
I think Maul's quite a bit above Shaak Ti.

As of TFU? I really doubt that. Shaak Ti made a DS nexus her personal playground, is hailed as one of the greatest duelists of the era, with her elegance being mentioned in the same breath as Dooku in the ROTS novel.

Also being able to escape from bloodlusted Darth Vader is a huge accolade, considering by this point in the Jedi Temple Vader was at the height of his power and a Level 9 Duelist, and tooling the likes of Cin Draalig.

Doctorwho?
Anyway...John McClane as a Jedi Knight wins

Nephthys
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
As of TFU? I really doubt that. Shaak Ti made a DS nexus her personal playground, is hailed as one of the greatest duelists of the era, with her elegance being mentioned in the same breath as Dooku in the ROTS novel.

Not to mention she did better against Marek than Vader himself did. Granted you can say he improved after his fight with her, but still she gets some mad props in their fight.

Intrepid37
LOL

Master Han
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
As of TFU? I really doubt that.

I dunno. She could have improved in the timespan...but then again, Obi Wan and Yoda both declined.



Over the course of almost two decades...



So has Darth Maul...of all time.



Where? Because it appears that Agen Kolar is mentioned "in the same breath" as Mace Windu, but clearly the two aren't equals at all.



Do you have quotes/whatever detailing their actual confrontation? And is there any evidence that the Vader assaulting the temple is necessarily superior to the Vader that Obi Wan later fights?

Although I may have underestimated Shaak Ti, it's still a stretch to put her on TCW Maul's caliber. And wasn't Shaak Ti was beating Galen Marek in sabers?

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Nephthys
Not to mention she did better against Marek than Vader himself did. Granted you can say he improved after his fight with her, but still she gets some mad props in their fight.

I actually have a hard time believing DS Galen and LS Galen have much of a gap in their power. Considering that right up to the Death Star Vader was owning him, I think his state of mind plays a huge part in it.

He's actually really inconsistent. I have a hard time believing his power jumped massive increments throughout TFU.

Intrepid37
Ti is one of the weakest council members. She's got an accolade calling her one of the best in the order, that's it.

Nephthys
Pfft, no she isn't.

Master Han
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Ti is one of the weakest council members. She's got an accolade calling her one of the best in the order, that's it.

Well, she apparently dazzled RotS Vader, which is pretty darn impressive.

Doctorwho?
Cheat codes dood. cheat codes

Intrepid37
The Jedi Temple is a light side nexus, granding her additional power. And there's no details about the fight at all, it hardly qualifies as usable evidence.

Master Han
Anakin's "in teh zone" haxxes look like cheat codes to me. And we all know that two wrongs make a right...

Doctorwho?
Well, when I played Episode III game I did use cheats so I wouldn't be killed in the temple big grin

Master Han
Originally posted by Intrepid37
The Jedi Temple is a light side nexus, granding her additional power.

I loathe appealing to OOU motivations...but it seems like no author ever considers this. It's supposed to be the most powerful light side nexus in the galaxy.

Doctorwho?
...and yet its levelled by a bunch of guys in white plastic..

Master Han
...with automatic weaponry, but yeah, true.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Master Han
I dunno. She could have improved in the timespan...but then again, Obi Wan and Yoda both declined.

Training your personal army and taming Rancors tends to keep you in shape.




Prove this. Because it certainly didn't seem gradual given that with her death the planet immediately became a nexus again. A nexus enough to consume Mariss Brood.



Am I denying this?


"Anakin, he was defended by Stass Allie and Shaak Ti. If two
Masters could not prevent this, do you think you could? Stass Allie is clever and valiant, and Shaak Ti is the most cunning Jedi I've ever met. She's even taught me a few tricks."

"He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become."


Anakin looked at him as though he wasn't sure who the Gate
Master was. "Where is Shaak Ti?"
"In the meditation chambers

Apparently its in TFU databanks. I got this off of the wiki

"As the 501st Legion of the Grand Army of the Republic, led by Darth Vader, descended on the Temple, Ti rallied her fellow Jedi in an attempt to repulse the Sith and his minions. At one point Ti engaged Vader in a fierce duel. Despite her great skill as a warrior she was unable to defeat him. However, Ti did escape after managing to disorientate Vader."

Anakin was not seen crying during his actions in the Jedi Temple. Nick Gillard says after he fell to the DS, he became a level 9 duelist. Due to his abysmal performance on Mustafar and the extenuating circumstances around it, I'd wager he was talking about during the Temple Raid.


"Power moves served you well on Hypori against Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir. But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters."

He called into hand his courtly, curve-handled lightsaber and drew a rapid X in the air - - a Makashi flourish.

"Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Shaak Ti or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"




It is not a stretch at all. She's on par in sabers with Kenobi at least imo.

Intrepid37
lol

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Ti is one of the weakest council members. She's got an accolade calling her one of the best in the order, that's it.

LOL no she isn't.

"Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Shaak Ti or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"


Dooku specifically called out Shaak Ti, Kenobi, Mace Windu, and Yoda. The top swordsman on the Council. Furthermore the fact that they changed the novel to say Shaak Ti instead of Cin Draalig seems to me like an intentional move to up Shaak Ti in the power rankings.

Doctorwho?
Originally posted by Master Han
...with automatic weaponry, but yeah, true.

Sweet. I love guns

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Intrepid37
LOL

Can you kindly take your trolling elsewhere?

Intrepid37
Dooku has no idea what Shaak Ti is capable of, and it's ironic as she got destroyed even with the help of fellow Jedi Ki-Adi Mundi and Aayla Secura.

Kolar has more and better accolades. Tiin has better Force feats and accolades. Koon has better Force- and skill feats. Fisto has better skill feats and accolades. Luminara has better skill feats. Mundi has better Force- and skill feats.

Master Han
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Kolar has more and better accolades. Tiin has better Force feats and accolades. Koon has better Force- and skill feats. Fisto has better skill feats and accolades. Luminara has better skill feats. Mundi has better Force- and skill feats.

Well, if Shaak Ti distracted Vader long enough to run away, while Kolar and Tiin died within seconds to Palpatine...

Intrepid37
Palpatine>>>>>Vader.

ROTJ Vader
I would put Shaak Ti under Kolar, Tiin, & Fisto. Forsure.

Master Han
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Training your personal army and taming Rancors tends to keep you in shape.


Fair enough.



The burden of proof isn't on me to prove it either way. You can't establish how long it takes her to tame the nexus, and the fact that the nexus immediately returns after her death...doesn't really have anything to do with it.



No, but I fail to see how it's relevant.



So she's extremely cunning, and has the "stylish grace" of Dooku. That doesn't put her on his level.



Anakin's being a level 9 doesn't contradict his duel with Obi Wan, since he has the upper hand throughout most of the confrontation. But given Obi Wan's performance against him, you can't really conclude that Shaak Ti is on his level because she "disorientated" him for a moment.



Huh. So they changed it from Cin Drallig to Shaak Ti. Although this is only mid-CW Obi Wan, and if you continue to follow the implicit progression, it's suggested that she's the lowest of the four.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Palpatine>>>>>Vader.

No. Palpatine>Vader. The gap as of ROTS isn't nearly as huge as you suggest.
Shit, even Suit Vader is 80% of Sidious. For all we know Peak Vader could be 85% or even 90%. Or did you miss Sidious' whole "Soon I will have a new apprentice. One far younger and more powerful."

More powerful than Mr. Tyranus.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku has no idea what Shaak Ti is capable of, and it's ironic as she got destroyed even with the help of fellow Jedi Ki-Adi Mundi and Aayla Secura.
The former temple battlemaster of the Jedi Order doesn't know what one of its esteemed blademasters is capable of? Yeah okay.

Oh, I see, so a beaten tattered Shaak Ti is a good measure of what she's capable of. Give me a break. Aayla is garbage. Ki-Adi is the only one worth mentioning. And he's clearly a skilled duelist as he forced Ventress into retreat.

Shaak Ti is clearly not below Grievous if Dooku clearly states she's above him when fresh.



No they don't. All of them would be annihilated by ROTS Anakin.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Master Han

The burden of proof isn't on me to prove it either way. You can't establish how long it takes her to tame the nexus, and the fact that the nexus immediately returns after her death...doesn't really have anything to do with it.

If you tame a dog, when you kill its owner it doesn't immediately become wild again instantly if you've been training it for years. If you just trained it however and you kill the owner, it'll regress quickly.




And its implied that whatever Stass Allie and Shaak could do throwing Anakin in the mix would not have changed the outcome.




She didn't just disorientate him. She disorientated him after a "fierce duel." And sure it was on a LS nexus. But even on a DS nexus ROTS Vader would steamroll over Maul.





It is not mid-CW Kenobi. The quote is from LOE which occurs right before ROTS. And I take back my statement that she's at least at Kenobi's level in bladework, considering his accolades. She likely is the weakest of the four.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No. Palpatine>Vader. The gap as of ROTS isn't nearly as huge as you suggest.
Shit, even Suit Vader is 80% of Sidious. For all we know Peak Vader could be 85% or even 90%. Or did you miss Sidious' whole "Soon I will have a new apprentice. One far younger and more powerful."

More powerful than Mr. Tyranus.
Peak Vader? He was extremely conflicted. Palpatine would kick his shit in, hard.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The former temple battlemaster of the Jedi Order doesn't know what one of its esteemed blademasters is capable of? Yeah okay.
Right, I guess Dooku called Yoda and asked him about Shaak Ti's capabilities? Dooku's statement was more a way of telling Grievous to improve than anything.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Oh, I see, so a beaten tattered Shaak Ti is a good measure of what she's capable of. Give me a break. Aayla is garbage.
Yeah, having five Jedi as backup should even out being ''tired''.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Ki-Adi is the only one worth mentioning. And he's clearly a skilled duelist as he forced Ventress into retreat.
He forced Ventress into retreat with backup. They were even before then.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Shaak Ti is clearly not below Grievous if Dooku clearly states she's above him when fresh.
Clearly, Mundi, who lasted longer than Ti and can thus be declared her superior, is only about Ventress' equal, who, with the help of Durge, couldn't beat Grievous.

Let's focus on the fights, not Dooku's speculations.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No they don't. All of them would be annihilated by ROTS Anakin.
Sure... against a conflicted and twisted dark-side Anakin, and with the aid of an extremely powerful nexus? Don't think so.

NTJack0
Maul has sabers, but Maul isn't touching him when Galen starts abusing the force.

Col. Valerian
Yes they would be annihilated.

ROTS Anakin is way above any Council member but Yoda and Mace. One-on-one against them he would win no doubt. Mace believed (in ROTS) Anakin was already the most powerful Jedi.

And yes, all-out I don't see Maul winning in any kind of scenario. Galen's Force powers are just ridiculous.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
If you tame a dog, when you kill its owner it doesn't immediately become wild again instantly if you've been training it for years. If you just trained it however and you kill the owner, it'll regress quickly.



At the least, it indicates it requires constant management.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Peak Vader? He was extremely conflicted. Palpatine would kick his shit in, hard.

The same Palpatine that kicked Windu's shit in amirite?




You're full of it you know that? Did you forget Dooku was the battlemaster of the Temple for decades and served on the Council? +He's the leader of the CIS and would have heard of her accolades on the battlefield.



"Surely we may have been exhausted, but when was the last time someone stood up to 5 Jedi and held his own."
"This General Grievous is changing the course of the war."

That is a high end showing for Grievous, just like him taking on Ventress and Durge simultaneously.



Uh no he didn't Ventress took down the gunship supporting him and used it to retreat.




Uh and then Ventress beat Grievous.




Dooku's opinions are more qualified than you, plebe.




Prove Anakin was conflicted at that point it's only later that we see him cry. He seems pretty resolute when he's talking to Padme after massacring the younglings in the Temple.

He also had no problem killing Cin Draalig one handed at that point.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The same Palpatine that kicked Windu's shit in amirite?
Can we stop with these redherrings?






Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You're full of it you know that?
???

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Did you forget Dooku was the battlemaster of the Temple for decades and served on the Council? +He's the leader of the CIS and would have heard of her accolades on the battlefield.
Heard of her accolades? As if the Jedi talked about her skills over dinner.




Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
"Surely we may have been exhausted, but when was the last time someone stood up to 5 Jedi and held his own."
"This General Grievous is changing the course of the war."

That is a high end showing for Grievous, just like him taking on Ventress and Durge simultaneously.
No, it's how good old-Grievous is. He's pressed Dooku himself in a duel and roughly stalemated Mace.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uh no he didn't Ventress took down the gunship supporting him and used it to retreat.
Scans? And niehter gained any ground either way. It's the result of outside intervention.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uh and then Ventress beat Grievous.
2008 Grievous, on a nexus.




Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dooku's opinions are more qualified than you, plebe.
Sure, but hardly more qualified than actual fights and comparison of feats.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove Anakin was conflicted at that point it's only later that we see him cry. He seems pretty resolute when he's talking to Padme after massacring the younglings in the Temple.
He was conflicted because he knew choosing the dark path was wrong... he was conflicted as soon as he cut off Mace's hand.

When he's killing the younglings he looks pretty twisted.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He also had no problem killing Cin Draalig one handed at that point.
And?

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Can we stop with these redherrings?

It isn't a redherring. Mace said that Anakin is arguably superior to himself. Palpatine struggled against Mace, so there's no ****ing way he'd steamroll over Anakin.



Hmmm Sora Bulq defected, as well as numerous Jedi. All of which knew Shaak Ti. Dooku was the battlemaster and served on the Council. Yes he'd be familiar with the Order's more notable members.




That's my point. Grievous was a monster back then. And he never pressed Dooku.




You can use the internet yourself.




Yes I am well aware. However the boost is unquantifiable and Ventress still handed his ass on a platter.




Which Dooku would have as battlemaster of the Order. So yes, his analysis would be superior to your own. Regardless the writers put that into the book to acknowledge Shaak's prowess. Why else would they change the novel to reflect that?



Prove this. From what I saw he was immersed in the Dark Side up until Mustafar where he was crying and conflicted.



He was one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history of course he looks twisted. A Sith officer committed suicide when seeing Darth Marr's visage. And Palpatine was hardly a looker.


And he had no problem pwning the battlemaster of the Jedi Order while choking out a Padawan.

DARTH POWER
Two things:

To Intrepid: Ventress has become much more powerful during TCW, which is confirmed in the episode Nightsisters when Sidious orders her execution. So Grievous getting the better of her and Durge on their first meeting, when they had no idea who he was or what they were up against, does not mean he's her superior throughout TCW.

Ventress is almost a match for Kenobi who by ROTS is wasting Grievous. Even is she can't do it in Sabers alone, I have no doubt she would take him in an all out by Mid-Late Clone Wars.


To MY: Skywalker might be able to defeat Mace or Dooku (if not he would at least give them hell) but if it came to battling Sidious, the Force TK Gap between them is just too large, so I see Sidious tossing him around the way he tossed Maul around Imho (Unless of course he goes all Mortis Uber).

Edit- As for this fight Maul loses in all scenarios except Sabers. He wins that one. But if we look at the way Galen usually fights, and if we powerscale appropriately, it probably won't be a stomp. TCW Maul should put up a fight before he goes down.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by DARTH POWER

To MY: Skywalker might be able to defeat Mace or Dooku (if not he would at least give them hell) but if it came to battling Sidious, the Force TK Gap between them is just too large, so I see Sidious tossing him around the way he tossed Maul around Imho (Unless of course he goes all Mortis Uber).



Incorrect. Sidious and Yoda by ROTS are virtually equal in ability. And yet Mace considers the possibility that Anakin is superior to himself and Yoda. Meaning that yes, Anakin would give anyone in the order a run for their money.

Mace doesn't say Anakin is arguably the best swordsman in the order he says he is arguably the most powerful.

Nephthys
Mace is an idiot. The guy also thinks Kenobi's a better swordsman than himself. Who cares what he thinks, he's obviously dead wrong.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
He very well could be neph, dooku only beat kenobi in ROTS due to force powers, and mace is normally equal to dooku, unless he's being super-amped due to figuring out the leader of his beloved republic is the dark lord

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Nephthys
Mace is an idiot. The guy also thinks Kenobi's a better swordsman than himself. Who cares what he thinks, he's obviously dead wrong.

If Mace and you got into a debate about who are the best duelists in the PT order, he would shit all over you.

Why do you think Yoda and Mace didn't want to put him and Palpatine together? Because as much of a disaster as losing Dooku to the Sith was, losing Anakin would be even more disastrous. People inherently don't like Anakin, myself included, especially Hayden Christensen's abysmal version, but stop ignoring the feats and accolades.

Hell there are people on this board who argue from here to kingdom come that Dooku is not Mace's equal because of his loss to Anakin because they simply cannot accept that Skywalker might have been top tier by the time of ROTS. And this is in spite of it being stated multiple times in canon that Dooku was an equal to Mace.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
If Mace and you got into a debate about who are the best duelists in the PT order, he would shit all over you.

Not really, since I have descriptions of people skills from omniscient sources and the ability to view events Mace isn't privy to, as well as several other advantages I could come up with if I thought about it enough.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really, since I have descriptions of people skills from omniscient sources and the ability to view events Mace isn't privy to, as well as several other advantages I could come up with if I thought about it enough.

The arrogance...

Nephthys
It helps that Windu is super humble.

Vensai
Originally posted by Nephthys
It helps that Windu is super humble.
Just because he's humble doesnt mean he'll say Anakin is the strongest lightly with Yoda next to him.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Nephthys
It helps that Windu is super humble.

Windu is humble. But show me one other instance where he hints anyone is superior to Yoda. Yoda, the person who he thinks himself a mere Padawan in comparison is arguably inferior to Anakin in Mace's eyes.

Nephthys
Only if you show me one instance where Anakin displays greater or equal power to Yoda that would lead to that being a valid opinion. Except for Zonakin.

Vensai
Originally posted by Nephthys
Only if you show me one instance where Anakin displays greater or equal power to Yoda that would lead to that being a valid opinion. Except for Zonakin.
Zonakin is a valid example. He dominated Dooku with ease as well as two of the Ones.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Incorrect. Sidious and Yoda by ROTS are virtually equal in ability. And yet Mace considers the possibility that Anakin is superior to himself and Yoda. Meaning that yes, Anakin would give anyone in the order a run for their money.

Mace doesn't say Anakin is arguably the best swordsman in the order he says he is arguably the most powerful.

Yeah but his key word is arguably.

Not that he's flat out the most powerful in any way possible.

If he thought he's the Jedi with the most raw power, and possibly the most powerful swordsman, then he might think he's arguably the most powerful.

But we've just seen nothing consistent from Skywalker to make us think he's above TCW Maul level in Force TK. (I'm honestly even hesitant to put him at Maul level).

Remember as of ROTS Lucas states you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor(on a consistent basis I'm guessing). The only possible reason Skywalker would be left out is because(on a consistent basis) he's just too outclassed by Sidious in Force TK(barring some one-off Mortis Uber feat), like Kenobi was against Count Dooku.

Edit- Of course the Mortis Feat may have Retconned the whole competing with Sidious statement.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
He very well could be neph, dooku only beat kenobi in ROTS due to force powers, and mace is normally equal to dooku, unless he's being super-amped due to figuring out the leader of his beloved republic is the dark lord

Nah, according to RaFoDV, Dooku simply outfought him.

Notice how Kenobi makes no attempt to block the first Force Push, so even if their force powers were equal he still would have got force pushed(just not as far).

And notice how Dooku parries back Kenobi's Saber (and Skywalker's for that matter) to create the opening to Force Choke Kenobi (and slam kick Skywalker).

And if he can slam kick Skywalker I see no reason why he wouldn't be slam kicking Kenobi in a one on one with either equal or no Force TK powers used.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah but his key word is arguably.

Not that he's flat out the most powerful in any way possible.

If he thought he's the Jedi with the most raw power, and possibly the most powerful swordsman, then he might think he's arguably the most powerful.

But we've just seen nothing consistent from Skywalker to make us think he's above TCW Maul level in Force TK. (I'm honestly even hesitant to put him at Maul level).

Remember as of ROTS Lucas states you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor(on a consistent basis I'm guessing). The only possible reason Skywalker would be left out is because(on a consistent basis) he's just too outclassed by Sidious in Force TK(barring some one-off Mortis Uber feat), like Kenobi was against Count Dooku.

Edit- Of course the Mortis Feat may have Retconned the whole competing with Sidious statement.

Or maybe because why would Anakin fight the Emperor at that point. The same reason Dooku isn't mentioned in the equation in spite of him being stated in canon to be equal to Mace by multiple sources.

I'm not saying Anakin would defeat Sidious, but to say that he'd get slaughtered by Sidious is way too far. Like I said.
Sidious>Anakin
but Sidious is not >>>> Anakin.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Or maybe because why would Anakin fight the Emperor at that point. The same reason Dooku isn't mentioned in the equation in spite of him being stated in canon to be equal to Mace by multiple sources.

I'm not saying Anakin would defeat Sidious, but to say that he'd get slaughtered by Sidious is way too far. Like I said.
Sidious>Anakin
but Sidious is not >>>> Anakin.

Since the quote was in response to why the Jedi B-team got cut down so easily, I always assumed it was in context of which Jedi could compete with the Emperor.

Hence Dooku not being mentioned. Also there could be the fact that Dooku was already dead?


But yeah I see your point, not only is Dooku equal to Mace, but we've seen him fight off Yoda (Sidious's equal). So it really doesn't make any sense at all to say the guy who battered Dooku would not even give the Emperor a fight.
But in terms of average showings it could just be that Skywalker has good enough Force TK to compete against Dooku/Mace but not Sidious/Yoda.

Taay'hai
Galen.

ROTJ Vader
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Or maybe because why would Anakin fight the Emperor at that point. The same reason Dooku isn't mentioned in the equation in spite of him being stated in canon to be equal to Mace by multiple sources.

I'm not saying Anakin would defeat Sidious, but to say that he'd get slaughtered by Sidious is way too far. Like I said.
Sidious>Anakin
but Sidious is not >>>> Anakin.

Sidious would slaughter Anakin.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Sidious would slaughter Anakin.

Lol

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
sidious definitely wouldn't slaughter anakin

Nephthys
By Lucas' statement he cannot compete with him though.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Nephthys
By Lucas' statement he cannot compete with him though.

Prove Lucas meant Anakin. Who by that point had resolved to not kill Sidious.

Nephthys
Er, well he says 'you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor.' By virtue of being excluded from that statement Anakin can't compete with Sidious as per the Big Man.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Nephthys
Er, well he says 'you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor.' By virtue of being excluded from that statement Anakin can't compete with Sidious as per the Big Man.


Oh so you concede that ROTS Sidious is superior to Vitiate?

Nephthys
No. But Vitiate wasn't even a person when Lucas said that. He's talking only in terms of the movies.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Nephthys
No. But Vitiate wasn't even a person when Lucas said that. He's talking only in terms of the movies.

Prove that he was talking about the movies.

Anakin by the point he is referencing wasn't even going to fight Sidious. + The emotional power Sidious holds over him is considerable. Anakin was emotionally destroyed to the point that he couldn't speak as per ROTS. But as for raw combat power he can challenge Sidious. Defeat? No. But put up a good fight? Yes.

ROTJ Vader
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol

What?. Don't like me stating the truth.

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove that he was talking about the movies.

Because, you know, Lucas doesn't give a shit about the EU? And because it's just plain obvious? And it doesn't even matter because Vitiate didn't even exist...

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Because, you know, Lucas doesn't give a shit about the EU? And because it's just plain obvious? And it doesn't even matter because Vitiate didn't even exist...

I was being coy. Obviously, I was simply pointing out the flaw in Neph's argument.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
By Lucas' statement he cannot compete with him though.

Well he actually in the same sentence said "Anakin could have beat the Emperor, had he not gotten all beat up."

Whether that meant right after ROTS or 20 years down the line, he didn't make very clear.


Besides if Anakin can Overpower 2 Force Wielders then.. Of course that was a On-Off, but he still did it before ROTS.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It isn't a redherring. Mace said that Anakin is arguably superior to himself. Palpatine struggled against Mace, so there's no ****ing way he'd steamroll over Anakin.
Sure he would. Palpatine never intended to kill Mace. He's a superior swordsmen and worlds more powerful.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Hmmm Sora Bulq defected, as well as numerous Jedi. All of which knew Shaak Ti. Dooku was the battlemaster and served on the Council. Yes he'd be familiar with the Order's more notable members.
That he'd be familiar enough to declare her as Grievous' absolute superior is unlikely, not to mention she'd probably be the rank of a Jedi Knight when Dooku was battlemaster.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That's my point. Grievous was a monster back then. And he never pressed Dooku.
Sure he did.

And as to the general's combat skills, few, if any, Jedi would be capable of defeating him. There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg.

-Labyrinth of Evil


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You can use the internet yourself.
Then tell me the name of the comic?




Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes I am well aware. However the boost is unquantifiable and Ventress still handed his ass on a platter.
It's unquantifiable, but the nexus is stronger than the cave on Dagobah, which was strong enough to completely minimize Yoda's light side presence. Besides, both have given Obi-Wan similar struggles throughout TCW.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Which Dooku would have as battlemaster of the Order. So yes, his analysis would be superior to your own. Regardless the writers put that into the book to acknowledge Shaak's prowess. Why else would they change the novel to reflect that?
It's not my ''analysis'', it's watching their fights.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove this. From what I saw he was immersed in the Dark Side up until Mustafar where he was crying and conflicted.
He doubts himself extremely much after helping Sidious kill Mace, and per Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, he was ''between worlds'' because of his doubts of choosing the dark side or light side.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And he had no problem pwning the battlemaster of the Jedi Order while choking out a Padawan.
Per the game, he didn't ''pwn'' him.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sure he would. Palpatine never intended to kill Mace. He's a superior swordsmen and worlds more powerful.

Prove this





Uh-huh. Also Dooku would know first hand from Sora Bulq and other defectors who were the best swordsman in the mythos. Look, you can sit here and debate with me over this. But it's pretty clear what the writers of the books intended. If Dooku wasn't a reputable source for swordsman why the hell would they change a line that was meaningless in the first place.





I mean this was Dooku who wasn't intent on damaging him. But it is impressive none the less.


Clone Wars: Volume 2, Crash Course





Wait where is this stated?
That's true.



Huh?





Doesn't help your case. When someone commits a crime and is in the act they don't always regret it immediately. But when they have time to reflect and it catches up to them, then remorse begins to set in.

There's no proof remorse began to set in until Mustafar where he's seen crying.



Too bad most of the game is non-canon. And in canon he chokes out a Padawan while fending off Cin with his other hand.

Col. Valerian
Master Han has already debated the 'Sidious didn't throw the fight' argument against Intrepid a lot, nothing will change his mind.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Master Han has already debated the 'Sidious didn't throw the fight' argument against Intrepid a lot, nothing will change his mind.

I think Sidious pretended to be weak at the end when Mace was gonna make him eat saber. But Sidious legitimately lost his duel to Windu.

"Palpatine never intended to kill Windu" he says laughing

That's why he killed him rite? amirite? biscuits

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I think Sidious pretended to be weak at the end when Mace was gonna make him eat saber. But Sidious legitimately lost his duel to Windu.

"Palpatine never intended to kill Windu" he says laughing

That's why he killed him rite? amirite? biscuits

Yeah, that's what I think.

Ur rite! biscuits

KuRuPT Thanosi
Not sure why people are picking maul here anyways. Galen pretty convincingly

Nephthys
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I think Sidious pretended to be weak at the end when Mace was gonna make him eat saber. But Sidious legitimately lost his duel to Windu.

"Palpatine never intended to kill Windu" he says laughing

That's why he killed him rite? amirite? biscuits

Agreed. Lucas says Mace overpowered him. thumb up

Intrepid37
I really hate how every discussion is about Palpatine throwing the fight or not...

KuRuPT Thanosi
^^^ well it's because nitwits like yourself who tried to peddle this illogical theory not supported by anything concrete because you needed to find excuses for Sidious losing. Problem is, others and myself have crushed said sidious apologists theory but your damage has been done. Other even dumber people actually thought it made sense and here we are. Next time try not to support such an illogical stance that isn't supported by much of anything and clearly much less supported than the theory that Palps actually LOST and was OVERPOWERED

Intrepid37
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Problem is, I LOVE Mace...
You don't say.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm a Sids Apologist who tries to peddle illogical theories to explain why he lost.

You don't say

Nephthys
Who could love Mace? He's one of the lamest, most badly acted and miscast characters in the Prequels and thats saying alot. Not to mention his highly Sue-ish special abilities and racist characterisation and backstory.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Isn't he a beast Neph? I agree buddy

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
Who could love Mace? He's one of the lamest, most badly acted and miscast characters in the Prequels and thats saying alot. Not to mention his highly Sue-ish special abilities and racist characterisation and backstory.


Yeah I do find him a difficult character to like.

But fact is many fans do love him simply for being the most powerful Jedi after Yoda, and for defeating Sidious.

I personally hate the idea of Mace being almost on par with Yoda and Sidious. I mean if we already had 2 Jedi who can defeat Sidious, what the heck was the point in the frigging Chosen One?!

Master Han
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I personally hate the idea of Mace being almost on par with Yoda and Sidious. I mean if we already had 2 Jedi who can defeat Sidious, what the heck was the point in the frigging Chosen One?!

Sidious's ultimate ascension lay in his macro-manipulation, not his combat prowess.

DARTH POWER
^ True but it was the magnitude of his powers which were the source of his macro-manipulation. And if not for his combat prowess the Most Powerful Jedi surely would have killed him just as his Empire begun.

Master Han
Slightly off topic: the (dumb) DS ending in TFUII sort of defeats the idea that the TFU DS ending should be taken as an accurate depiction of Sidious's power relative to Marek's. It wasn't a "what if"...no darkside secret clone appears in the LS TFUII ending, despite that Marek's choice shouldn't have anything to do with hit.

The_Tempest
It should if Vader wanted to be captured alive as a means of infiltrating the Rebel base. The Distant Thunder cutscenes depict Vader's dark side clone of Marek as actually existing.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Nephthys
Who could love Mace? He's one of the lamest, most badly acted and miscast characters in the Prequels and thats saying alot. Not to mention his highly Sue-ish special abilities and racist characterisation and backstory.

Lamest? Sure.
Badly acted? More like badly directed.
Miscast? Are you serious? Samuel L. is a fantastic actor.
Racist? Yeah, he really did fulfil the angry black man on the Council, also he came from the jungle...****.

But I do think Mace in the ROTS novel seems way better than in the movies. And Mace Windu was ****ing awesome in the original Clone Wars when he barehanded those battledroids.

They could have just given him shatterpoint and it would have been enough...but to give him Vaapad too was ****ing hax.

ROTJ Vader
Racist lol.

ROTJ Vader
Originally posted by Nephthys
Who could love Mace? He's one of the lamest, most badly acted and miscast characters in the Prequels and thats saying alot. Not to mention his highly Sue-ish special abilities and racist characterisation and backstory.

Eh, I thought he was pretty cool.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Racist lol.

The one black dude on the Council is always angry and comes from a jungle world.

ROTJ Vader
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The one black dude on the Council is always angry and comes from a jungle world.

laughing out loud laughing out loud

Nephthys
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Badly acted? More like badly directed.
Miscast? Are you serious? Samuel L. is a fantastic actor.

Oh yes, don't get me wrong, Sam is awesome. But he's good at being an emotional, bombastic presence. Whereas in the Prequels he has to play a reserved, stoic Jedi, which he is ****ing awful at doing. That's why he's miscast, because the character is written to possess none of the strengths that Jackson has as an actor, leaving him floundering on-screen and giving a painfully weak performance.

Master Han
Morgan Freeman instead?

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh yes, don't get me wrong, Sam is awesome. But he's good at being an emotional, bombastic presence. Whereas in the Prequels he has to play a reserved, stoic Jedi, which he is ****ing awful at doing. That's why he's miscast, because the character is written to possess none of the strengths that Jackson has as an actor, leaving him floundering on-screen and giving a painfully weak performance.

Not sure you quite understand how the performing arts work. The director has a vision, and the actors do as the director says to accomplish that or they get fired. With the right director even Hayden Christensen could be a likeable Anakin.

Shit even Natalie Portman seems like an abhorred actress in AOTCs and ROTS. When her performances in Black Swan and V for Vendetta prove otherwise. The reason the Prequels fail has not to do with the cast, but with the poor writing and direction.

Trust me on this one theater is my second major.

Nephthys
I'm not ragging on Jackson as an actor, he was simply miscast and given a role he couldn't perform. Jacksons strengths has always been when he can shout and display his raw emotions, he's ****ing amazing as that kind of character. But a character like Windu simply isn't a character he can do well with.

You can blame George and obviously he had a big hand in it, but you can't blame him entirely. Ewen McGregor gave a likeable and charismatic performance despite Lucas. Yes, the character is written to be bland as **** and the direction blew chunks, but Jackson was still the wrong guy to play that role from the very start.

ROTJ Vader
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The reason the Prequels fail has not to do with the cast, but with the poor writing and direction.


I liked the Prequels.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove this
You can use the internet yourself. wink





Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uh-huh. Also Dooku would know first hand from Sora Bulq and other defectors who were the best swordsman in the mythos. Look, you can sit here and debate with me over this. But it's pretty clear what the writers of the books intended. If Dooku wasn't a reputable source for swordsman why the hell would they change a line that was meaningless in the first place.
I don't goddamn know, but don't come here with your out-of-universe explanations. Dooku's not a source, that's a fact.









Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Clone Wars: Volume 2, Crash Course
Don't have that.





Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Wait where is this stated?
You can use the internet yourself. wink



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Huh?
Dooku's speculations are irrelevant when we see that he's wrong. erm





Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Doesn't help your case. When someone commits a crime and is in the act they don't always regret it immediately. But when they have time to reflect and it catches up to them, then remorse begins to set in.

There's no proof remorse began to set in until Mustafar where he's seen crying.
But... he regretted it before he killed the children.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Too bad most of the game is non-canon.
According to?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And in canon he chokes out a Padawan while fending off Cin with his other hand.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand?

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not ragging on Jackson as an actor, he was simply miscast and given a role he couldn't perform. Jacksons strengths has always been when he can shout and display his raw emotions, he's ****ing amazing as that kind of character. But a character like Windu simply isn't a character he can do well with.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_3YuBIIaTeE/URYtArOizXI/AAAAAAAAaRk/6jDqaDMGfVQ/s320/django+stephen+malo.jpg

I disagree. In Django Unchained where he has that scene in the library with Calvin (Leo DiCaprio) he nails the stoic reserved character. You get your traditional Sam Jackson loud and darkly humorous character when Stephen is out in public. But when he is alone with Calvin, and at the end when he's alone with Django at the end, you see a whole different Sam Jackson.




That's because Obi-Wan Kenobi was a character already written out in the OT, and already had a base for his character. There's not a single character written for the PT that is good or well acted. Shit Natalie Portman's role in that shitty Friends with Benefits movie was better portrayed than Padme Amidala, and she is, in my opinion, one of the better actresses of the era.

Col. Valerian
Agreed. PT writing was just terrible.

The_Tempest
Dooku was written and portrayed quite well.

Nephthys
Not really. His death was too rushed and he never had a chance to stand out imo.

Intrepid37
He is, as everyone, best portrayed in the novels.

Col. Valerian
He might've been the not-so-bad-one, but still wasn't good, imo.

Petrus
The Prequel Trilogy had very few positive aspects when it came to the way it was written. I believe Mizukage Yoda is correct. It wasn't the actors' fault, it was Lucas's.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Dooku was written and portrayed quite well.

Well that's because they essentially stole his character from Lord of the Rings. **** they even renamed the tower on Grievous' ship the Wizard's tower in homage to Saruman the White.

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