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Two powerful teams face-off.

Setting: Death Star throne room with Palpatine overseeing the fight.

Combatants: This is Vader and Marek from TFU II, Revan from his novel and Bane from Rule of Two.

Rules: This is an all-out fight, no morals, no restrictions.


Bonus: The victorious team has to challenge the Emperor.

Team 1 maybe. Bane is the best fighter imo but Revan is a weaklink. Vader or Marek won't be able to defeat Bane, as he's a superior swordsman to both of them, can match their TK and might overpower them with difficulty in lightning. But I think Revan will likely lose before Bane defeats his opponent. He's outmatched in terms of lightsabers and in the Force..... eh, he can definitely block Galens lightning but I would not bank on him doing the same against their TK.

I guess its a case of who wins first and easiest. So maybe a toss up.

I'd say both teams can beat the Emperor though.

Assuming Bane is equipped with his orbalisks, he solos.

Actually, I see Revan facing Galen and Vader facing Bane. Revan and Galen are both decent lightsaber duelists, but Galen may be a bit stronger in the force, though if Revan gets the opportunity to block Galen's lightning (which he can), then Galen's screwed. I don't see revan getting overwhelmed by TK either, if the Emperor couldn't do the same. As for Bane vs. Vader, Bane may be a slightly better duelist, but Vader has more impressive TK, and he can block Bane's lightning with his saber (if Zannah was able to without too much difficulty, I don't see why Vader couldn't), so this battle can go either way. I do think Revan has a good shot at beating Marek though.

Which Emperor? Anyways i'm pretty sure both teams have a decent shot at beating either emperor.


Bonus: Which Emperor? Anyways, i'm pretty sure team 2 would lose to either emperor, as Revan is the weak link imo.

Bane isn't just a slightly better duelist than Vader, he's much faster and will very comfortably beat him in a duel imo. As for TK, Bane can disintegrate a dozen metal combatants with a wave of his hand, so I'm not seeing a superiority in Vaders favor there.

Didn't he have orbalisks when he used that force wave? If this is Orbalisk Bane then he solo'es. Anyways, i'm not seeing how he "very comfortably" beats vader in sabers, Vader has combated foes that are as fast as Bane (Maul for example), and he's moved so fast a force user couldn't see him. Bane doesn't have a strength advantage, not a skill advantage, etc.

Yes he did, but I hardly think it matters. Bane used the same attack multiple times in the fight and had enough energy to fight for over an hour. It clearly isn't an attack he needed to strain to perform. Besides which, he becomes more powerful after losing the orbalisks (perhaps being just as powerful in DoE as in RoT) ad shows he can still disintegrate metal in that book.

Maul isn't as fast as Bane and Vader lost the saber fight with him. When did Vader move fast enough for a Force use to not see him?

Vader half turned. "Do you think I do not recognize Roan Lands? Do you think I would be foolish enough to let you take him away?"

"He is a former associate, yes, but --"

It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.

The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart.

double post

Where is that from? I assume from Rise of Darth Vader by the nane Roan but that never happens in that book.

Either way he isn't moving faster than he can see, other than a lot of fancy hyperbole.

Roan Lands and Roan Shryne are different people.

This isn't even fair. Team 2 stomps.

So yeah, Bane is still faster than "Slow Assh*le" Vader and would beat the shit out of him in a lightsaber duel. Bane moved faster than an entire room of Sith in PoD could comprehend, and obviously he is far faster than that now. He's fast enough to wield a dozen lightsabers from Zannahs perspective, dodge Rasktas attacks, fight 3 Jedi at once evenly, move quick enough to blitz Farfalla were he not BM-enhanced and block and dodge a pouring storm for 10 minutes in DoE. His reflexes are such that he was able to speed up his perception until time was frozen.

He is faster than Vader.

Feat-to-feat, Marek probably solos this.

Holistically, I'm giving the victory to team 1 after a tough fight.

Mareks feats are noted to be exaggerated.

By whom?

Tulak Hord.

Yes, I thought you'd back down.

http://www.daciaforum.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2013/post-1070-0-38946000-1371215944.jpg

I'm playing Swtor so I can't look it up now. Will later.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm playing Swtor so I can't look it up now. Will later.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
By whom?

Hayden Blackman.

And don't ask me to track down specific quotes because I ****ing know you know its true and I'm not humoring you.

Quote and source, pl0x?

No.

I'm afraid I can't accept this to be the case without proper citation.

oh no

i think i might cry

Your naked hostility and defensiveness suggests that you probably are.

Team 1 wins.

The whole point of the Force Unleashed is that "unleashed" part, as has been said many times. They were going for super exaggerated Force use in crazy ways we'd never seen before.

Oh, well if we're determining that the Force is "exaggerated" simply because Starkiller uses it differently than do other Force adepts in the movies, then we'll be widening the scope to include other things. Like KotORs I and II. TOTJ. DE. FOTJ. The Bane Trilogy. TOR. DNT. LOTF.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And if your inability to provide evidence is any indication, neither has The Force Unleashed.

Because I'm not playing that game with you. You know this has been said and I'm not wearying myself just for your benefit.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Powerful enough to use the Force to:

Collapse a twenty-meter tall temple?

Disintegrate people?

Raze planets?

Destroy starfleets?

Teleport?

Time-travel?

Become invisible?

Cause supernovae?

We can play this game all day. But you haven't actually proven your case.

You can play it all you like, its still canonically noted as an exaggeration of the standard depiction while those are not. Canon > Fanon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because I'm not playing that game with you. You know this has been said and I'm not wearying myself just for your benefit.

You weary yourself for my benefit all the time. Why is this time such a burden? Especially if the quote exists and has been posted here before.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You can play it all you like, its still canonically noted as an exaggeration of the standard depiction while those are not. Canon > Fanon.

Where is it canonically noted to be an exaggeration?

Interesting. One of the Dread Masters has been alive since the Sith Empire rediscovered Dromund Kaas.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You weary yourself for my benefit all the time. Why is this time such a burden? Especially if the quote exists and has been posted here before.

Because the wookiepedia link is broken and google isn't getting anything. Any more investment in finding it would become tedious, and I'm not bothered enough for that just to prove a point I know you know is true.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because the wookiepedia link is broken and google isn't getting anything. Any more investment in finding it would become tedious,

Ah, so you can't find it?

Originally posted by Nephthys
and I'm not bothered enough for that just to prove a point I know you know is true.

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean. I believe TFU is as exaggerated as all the other examples I provided, though.

Originally posted by DanBrown19118
Interesting. One of the Dread Masters has been alive since the Sith Empire rediscovered Dromund Kaas.

Further showing their power and worth to the Emperor

To be completely fair, Marek's strengths lie in the force. He seemed to get beaten in almost every saber fight he participated in, and only won through superior force ability. Revan does however, have the feat of easily defeating a dark honor guard drawing on the strength of the Emperor, while Meetra and Scourge failed to do so easily (Scourge considered an "expert swordsman" and Meetra being able to learn and excel at lightsaber forms by just observing them). Marek might have an advantage but it'd be small, and the only way he'd successfully kill Revan imo is with TK.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ah, so you can't find it?



I'm afraid I don't know what you mean. I believe TFU is as exaggerated as all the other examples I provided, though.

I could find it, but low-effort attempts did not bear fruit.

/ignores feigned ignorance.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I could find it, but low-effort attempts did not bear fruit.

/ignores feigned ignorance.

http://www.mikymas.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/online-dating-profile-examples-no-flawless-victory.jpg

/ignores hilarious bias over what is and what is not exaggerated




damn format error

Yes, but given that Marek is a practitioner of Juyo and therefore "a high-end master of multiple forms," we can conclude that this is not the result of lackluster skill but the formidable talent of his enemies.



Feat-wise, Marek annihilates Revan.

But I also believe we shouldn't make conclusions on naked feats. I'd say it comes down to Marek possessing greater power and Revan possessing greater skill. It's a good fight either way. I'm not certain I'd even give Marek the nod over Revan. The only reason I'm saying team 1 wins is because I put Vader over Bane.

Again, TFU is canonically said to be exaggerated.

You decided the other ones were yourself.

Canon.

Fanon.

Canon >>> Fanon.

Unless they are canonically said to be exaggerated, you saying they are is completely worthless in an argument as your opinion amounts to f*ck plus all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Again, TFU is canonically said to be exaggerated.

Where?

Originally posted by Nephthys
You decided the other ones were yourself.

Canon.

Fanon.

Canon >>> Fanon.

Unless they are canonically said to be exaggerated, you saying they are is completely worthless in an argument as your opinion amounts to f*ck plus all.

Nah, I'm merely applying the same standard you do when determining what is and what is not exaggerated. But I'm not being selective about it.

Also, thanks for saying my opinion amounts to "all." stoned

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yes, but given that Marek is a practitioner of Juyo and therefore "a high-end master of multiple forms," we can conclude that this is not the result of lackluster skill but the formidable talent of his enemies.



Feat-wise, Marek annihilates Revan.

But I also believe we shouldn't make conclusions on naked feats. I'd say it comes down to Marek possessing greater power and Revan possessing greater skill. It's a good fight either way. I'm not certain I'd even give Marek the nod over Revan. The only reason I'm saying team 1 wins is because I put Vader over Bane.

So I hope we can conclude that Revan and Marek are at least on-par lightsaber combatants, can we not? Imo Marek's skill set is not good to combat Revan. His lightning can be blocked by Revan's masterful application of Tutaminis, so really the only way galen can legitimately overwhelm Revan is with TK.

Mareks lightsaber skills were said to be near perfect in his TFU profile. I'm not willing to put the near featless Revan on par with him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, I'm merely applying the same standard you do when determining what is and what is not exaggerated.

The standard I'm applying is that TFU is said to be exaggerated therefore I determin it is.

Totally the same, right? 8^y

so he was almost a master? Shows why he was overwhelmed so many times in lightsaber combat

Has it ever been explained if Vitiate's guards' skills or physical abilities are enhanced by him?

lemme pull up the profile on dark honor guards

Dunno. Not in any source I have access to.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dunno. Not in any source I have access to.

You are a particularly disgusting breed of useless.

Revan has a Guardsman draw on Vits power to protect himself from Revans push and thats it. You've actually read the book so if more is said, you'd know.

Well the only thing I remember from their profile is that they are the "ultimate non-force sensitive beings in the Empire" and were "feared by the dark council for their martial prowess." When drawing on Vitiate they are virtually immune to force abilities, ergo you are forced to rely on your lightsaber, though I didn't find anything stating their physical capabilities are enhanced.

I don't need you to tell me what I've already read, fool. I need you to tell me what I have yet to read.

Do not fail me again.

BTW interesting thing on vitiate:

http://s1349.photobucket.com/user/Intrepid37/media/Vitiate/vitiateneedsprep_zps4acd840b.png.html

Did you read the part where he says its completely non-canon?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Did you read the part where he says its completely non-canon?

good to see you agree
i'm arguing over at ROTJ Vader's forum on a vitiate vs. Caedus thread

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
BTW interesting thing on vitiate:

http://s1349.photobucket.com/user/Intrepid37/media/Vitiate/vitiateneedsprep_zps4acd840b.png.html

Yeah, Intrepid already provided this a while back. It's what sealed the deal for me, validating my 2 year old conclusion about Vitiate's abilities.

Because a dude saying he's not sure about what the canon technique is sure equals conclusive.

Especially considering that he said prime vitiate cannot use it on the go (even though he used in on Revan), and that he's used it to mind dominate 8000 sith lords long, long before his prime. Admittedly he probably prepped for this, but to say that vitiate in his prime would be unable to use it on the go sounds very odd, to say the least.

A dude being a guy who wrote one of the 3 sources in which the character directly appears and worked on the game itself.

Karpyshyn roots his answer in the game, I rooted my answer in Revan, and there's been nothing offered to contradict it.

It's hilarious that you jumped ship on the issue and the author confirms I was right the whole time.

The only thing confirmed is you flexing your formidable mental handicap like a heavyweight champ.

It also pleases me how angry you invariably get when Karpyshyn's quote comes up.

Nephthys is pumped up!

Team Two wins handily assuming its Novel Galen. :/
Galen is extremely overrated, his best feat is moving a Star Destroyer SLIGHTLY off course after like 3 minutes of screaming and agony trying.

^ Galen has many other feats to his name

Originally posted by Stigma
Furthermore, I feel that neither Vader (maybe nor even Marek) are far below RoT Bane is close combat skills.

Yeah orbalisk Bane could solo all 3 of the combatants tbh.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yes, but given that Marek is a practitioner of Juyo and therefore "a high-end master of multiple forms," we can conclude that this is not the result of lackluster skill but the formidable talent of his enemies.

I just wanted to mention something about this. Isn't Revan skilled in all forms of lightsaber combat, per Karpyshyn? If so, that would include Juyo...

Revan is immensely underestimated because of lack of written information about his exploits. Accomplishments wise, he will smoke majority in the mythos. The only being who put him in his place is canonically "a godlike avatar of the dark side" who have dismantled whole Strike Teams of bad@sses without difficulty.

I think Revan is good enough to subdue Marek after a decent fight and then decide the fate of encounter between Vader and Bane.

Marek is just a "Revan inspired wannabe clone" with creative liberties on his side.

Also, lightsaber dueling is not just about impressive martial skills. A Force-user with great understanding of the Force can perceive enemy actions with great clarity and react with great precision and speed accordingly. This is why Revan is such a potent and effective duelist and have cutdown so many foes ranging from Mandalorians to Sith Lords to gigantic droids to other extremely martial opponents and you name it.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I just wanted to mention something about this. Isn't Revan skilled in all forms of lightsaber combat, per Karpyshyn? If so, that would include Juyo...

Do you have a quote? I'm not familiar with that one.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yes, but given that Marek is a practitioner of Juyo and therefore "a high-end master of multiple forms," we can conclude that this is not the result of lackluster skill but the formidable talent of his enemies.
This is nit-picking, but that Marek is a mere practitioner of Juyo does not credit him with high-end mastery of multiple forms. I recall that you'll need to be a master of Juyo to be credited with such an accolade.

I agree that Revan has a good chance of beating Marek. However it would be a very close fight imo, not just a "decent fight".

where does it say Vitiate is a "godlike avatar of the dark side"?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I agree that Revan has a good chance of beating Marek. However it would be a very close fight imo, not just a "decent fight".

where does it say Vitiate is a "godlike avatar of the dark side"
In this book: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-The-Republic-Encyclopedia/dp/0756698391

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is nit-picking, but that Marek is a mere practitioner of Juyo does not credit him with high-end mastery of multiple forms. I recall that you'll need to be a master of Juyo to be credited with such an accolade.

Pretty sure it's practitioner, but then I don't have my source onhand.

What sources describe Form VII other than Fight Saber?

The Jedi Path has a section on it. Its described as difficult to learn and use effectively.

Fight Saber notes that only ''high-end masters of multiple forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII''.

It's clear to me that ''achieve and control'' refer to being a master of it, not merely a practitioner.

I disagree, achieving and controlling it merely refers to being able to use it.

nah