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The 100 best, unnamed Jedi of the New Sith Wars take on the 100 best unnamed Sith of The Old Republic, on a neutral world, and on a simple field large enough to hold all 200 of them. Rather than being grouped together, the Jedi and Sith are scattered randomly throughout the area, and everyone is in close proximity to the people that directly surround them.

Go!

The Sith dominate. The 100 best unnamed Sith of TOR would be be highly advanced Sith Warriors or Sorcerers. Swtor era Sith are simply a cut above the Sith these Jedi have had to deal with.

Also, this isn't the thread I suggested. You know that in a real Empire vs Empire thread the TOR side would dominate.

Not at all, I just only care about the Jedi/Sith.

1. Jedi have the advantage in that the lightside is at its greatest strength when spread across large numbers, darkside at its weakest when it is diluted among large numbers.

2. Jedi have far more JvS war experience, have the advantage of hundreds of years to perfect their teachings, training methods and strategy in a way that is suited to JvS war.

3. Jedi by their nature are better suited to working as a team, recognising that they are a cog in a machine, Sith on the other hand have large egos and will also often turn against eachother. This might be the perfect opportunity for a rival Sith to take out another by surprise.

4. Jedi are on average and as a whole superior due to survival of the fittest and Jedi from a strictly war scenario; Sith progress through survival of the fittest also but this is largely due to deception, betrayal, secrecy etc and not reflective of combat prowess.

Jedi win.

1. Only according to Bane's opinion. The TOR era Sith Empire proves him rather wrong in that respect. Considering that they have millions of extremely strong Sith and some of the strongest Sith Lords in the mythos. Vitiate, Malgus, Nox, Jadus, Scourge, the Emperor's Wrath, the Dread Masters (capable of destroying entire fleets solo) etc. All incredibly powerful.

2. This isn't a war, its a single battle. And the Swtor era Sith had 1,300 years of preparation to hone their battle skills from those of the already potent Golden Age of the Sith.

3. Jedi are also easily distracted by having their fellow Jedi slain before them on the battlefield. Sith on the other hand are completely focused on killing Jedi, they very rarely turn on each other in battle and only for personal reasons. Considering these are anonymous Sith I don't think that will be an issue.

4. Thats not how it works in the TOR era Empire. An Sith Acolyte is put through literal hell just to survive the training on Korriban, often sent on suicidal missions for no reason at all. In the entire mythos the concept of survival of the fittest is most prevailant in this era in these Sith.

1. That doesn't prove him wrong, in any way the presence of Bane, Kaan, Kas'im, Githany, Kopekz, Qordis, Krux Kral or Sirak in the BoD proves him wrong. You can still have powerful people with a limited fuel supply, just like an incredibly powerful darkside doesn't suck simply because he's on a lightside nexus, but it is a valid disadvantage. Bane's opinion is verified by the propechy of the Sith'ari.

2. It's the kind of scenario you would have in a war brosepoh.

3. Hahaha, please. Sith are genuinely known for betraying each other, Jedi on the other hand are not known for letting their emotions interfere with their duty. And even if it did, Jedi typically become enraged and far more powerful in those scenarios. Anonymous to us, not to eachother.

4. There will still be the opportunity for trachery etc. and a real Sith takes every opportunity they can get to rise above their peers.

Dread Masters solo.

/thread.

Who the hell are the dread masters

6 immortal Sith Lords who can destroy entire fleets through their fear powers.

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120626023954/starwars/images/5/5e/New_dread_masters.jpg

They're all really freaking powerful.

Google is your friend, bro.

Some alien Force newbie leeched a fraction of power from one Dread Master and could ragdoll people into 20+ foot statues and destroy them. They are OP.

What part of the story is that at? I'm only playing as a Knight and I've only gotten to Taris so far.

Belsavis. The Imperial players free them from captivity. Then they have an end-game planet and a few Operations to themselves.

I'm sure Vitiate, like Ragnos before him, keeps these amazingly superior vassals pacified with political acumen instead of overwhelming power.

Didn't ask for spoilers bro...

Just tell me the class/planet/level.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Didn't ask for spoilers bro...

Just tell me the class/planet/level.

This would make sense if the Dread Masters were a huge part of the plot of TOR.

So how did they die/who got rid of them.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Didn't ask for spoilers bro...

Just tell me the class/planet/level.

Any Imperial class/Belsavis/40-ish I think.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm sure Vitiate, like Ragnos before him, keeps these amazingly superior vassals pacified with political acumen instead of overwhelming power.

Strangely enough though the Dread Masters have done some stuff thats more impressive than anything Vitiate has, like mentally dominating armies and destroying fleets. Vitiate is definitely more powerful than them though. I just wish Bioware would show us that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Any Imperial class/Belsavis/40-ish I think.



Strangely enough though the Dread Masters have done some stuff thats more impressive than anything Vitiate has, like mentally dominating armies and destroying fleets. Vitiate is definitely more powerful than them though. I just wish Bioware would show us that.

I know. A lot of his power over others is inferred. But his domination over the Dark Temple and purging his own council is pretty impressive, among things.

Oh yeah. Vitiate with prep can beat pretty much anyone.

EVEN NIHILUS?

The NSW Sith, compared to their TOR counterparts, were soft as marshmallows. Look at say, Sirak. He was supposed to be the best they had (not including Bane) and he turned out to be a joke.

The TOR Sith had ridiculously high standards. Look at the Inquisitor plotline; a Acolyte named Kory was killed just because she was kindhearted. Compare that to the NSW Sith who basically let anyone in as long as they could touch the Force at all.

You know that saying about how a hero is judged by the quality of his villains? That's basically the case here. The NSW Jedi are accustomed to facing watered-down, weaker quality Sith. In this scenario they would be totally unprepared and would get torn apart.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
So how did they die/who got rid of them.

I'm not entirely sure how it'll canonically go down, but they all get killed except for 1 by a large Strike Team (8-16). I think its probably going to turn out to be that the Empire and Republic characters join forces for an 8 man Strike Team, because the Empire and Republic working together is what happens in the storyline.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
You know that saying about how a hero is judged by the quality of his villains? That's basically the case here.

The NSW Sith, compared to their TOR counterparts, were soft as marshmallows. Look at say, Sirak. He was supposed to be the best they had (not including Bane) and he turned out to be a joke.

The TOR Sith had ridiculously high standards. Look at the Inquisitor plotline; a Acolyte named Kory was killed just because she was kindhearted. Compare that to the NSW Sith who basically let anyone who could touch the Force in.

In this scenario, the NSW Jedi would be totally unprepared and would get torn apart.



Absolutely right.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not entirely sure how it'll canonically go down, but they all get killed except for 1 by a large Strike Team (8-16). I think its probably going to turn out to be that the Empire and Republic characters join forces for an 8 man Strike Team, because the Empire and Republic working together is what happens in the storyline.





Absolutely right.

You're welcome. Thanks for making those awesome TOR Respect threads. They were a real eye-opener.

I still need to make the Bounty Hunter one. Urgh. Eventually.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
The NSW Sith, compared to their TOR counterparts, were soft as marshmallows. Look at say, Sirak. He was supposed to be the best they had (not including Bane) and he turned out to be a joke.

Just the best student, not the best lord or anything.


Many of the Lords cut their teeth before the academy came around- the Brotherhood of Darkness training system was relatively recent.



This group should almost exclusively be the ones who succeeded in the time of sith-eat-sith warlords and such, rather than the 'we need numbers and we need them now' group. This is at the end of a period of heavy warfare, and while force knowledge was lost in all that fighting, heavy experience with saber is plentiful.

Originally posted by Q99
Just the best student, not the best lord or anything.

Doesn't Kaan say that most of the students on Korriban were more powerful than most of the Lords in whateverthe****?

Yeah. Thought the eltie were probably beyond the level of any student except for Bane. People like Kas'im (obv), Kaan, Kopekz, Qordis, Krux Kral etc.

BTW I will begin reading Knight Errant soon, so I should have some new NSW feats for you real soon.

Q99, check out the Marvel NOW thread lol.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I still need to make the Bounty Hunter one. Urgh. Eventually.

No rush. Take your time.

Originally posted by Q99
Just the best student, not the best lord or anything.

Yeah that's what I meant. Sorry, I should have been more clear.


Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Yeah. Thought the eltie were probably beyond the level of any student except for Bane. People like Kas'im (obv), Kaan, Kopekz, Qordis, Krux Kral etc.

The writers must have been Highlander fans.

For anyone that hasn't watched Highlander, many of the series villains had names that started with a K or a hard C.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
BTW I will begin reading Knight Errant soon, so I should have some new NSW feats for you real soon.

I've read Knight Errant. I won't spoil it but I will say you're in for a treat. Kerra Holt is a great character.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Doesn't Kaan say that most of the students on Korriban were more powerful than most of the Lords in whateverthe****?


Can't say that I know of such a statement, but the lords include actual rivals to Kaan, Kas'im, etc..

I'm guessing that quality of lord varied a fair amount, but they were the ones who'd survived clashes with various sith. The best students may have been expected to be better than most of the lords... but, after all, that is what happened, just not in the student they expected (Bane).

Originally posted by chilled monkey
The NSW Sith, compared to their TOR counterparts, were soft as marshmallows. Look at say, Sirak. He was supposed to be the best they had (not including Bane) and he turned out to be a joke.

The TOR Sith had ridiculously high standards. Look at the Inquisitor plotline; a Acolyte named Kory was killed just because she was kindhearted. Compare that to the NSW Sith who basically let anyone in as long as they could touch the Force at all.

You know that saying about how a hero is judged by the quality of his villains? That's basically the case here. The NSW Jedi are accustomed to facing watered-down, weaker quality Sith. In this scenario they would be totally unprepared and would get torn apart.

Originally posted by Q99
Can't say that I know of such a statement, but the lords include actual rivals to Kaan, Kas'im, etc..

I'm guessing that quality of lord varied a fair amount, but they were the ones who'd survived clashes with various sith. The best students may have been expected to be better than most of the lords... but, after all, that is what happened, just not in the student they expected (Bane).

"They are the strongest of our order," Kopecz reminded him. "We both know even the lowliest students on Korriban are stronger than half the so-called Dark Lords here on Ruusan."

Yeah, the Brotherhood really wasn't that great.

Kopekz was just being overly critical?

Plus it's all relative bro. Perhaps the students were just that damn good?

They'd barely even learned Force Lightning.

When?

Siraak and Githany, the two strongest students at the Academy, struggled to generate even small streaks of lightning. And they by far outclassed the other strongest students of the academy, who outclasses the weakest students in the academy, who outclass the brotherhood's lords.

They just learned that ability though. So it's really not all that bad.

However, the Brotherhood (and the Jedi of that time for that matter) were both not all that great. That was sorta the point. They've been fighting for so long now that both armies are down to their dregs. Heck, even the Jedi were putting untrained kids on the front lines.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
When?

Doesn't Bane only learn Force Lightning like a week before he leaves the academy? From Githany who herself only learned it a few days prior?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Doesn't Bane only learn Force Lightning like a week before he leaves the academy?

Try months on for size.



Don't think so.

Plus Githany and Bane were new recruits, so naturally they would have only learnt it.

Originally posted by ares834
Heck, even the Jedi were putting untrained kids on the front lines. ]

I was just about to mention this.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Try months on for size.



Don't think so.

Plus Githany and Bane were new recruits, so naturally they would have only learnt it.

You are correct, I mistakenly thought that the scene where Bane is taught lightning was the one where he says he's challenging Sirak.

I believe Sirak was also learning it though.


That said, I think the point about the Jedi sending untrained children into battle speaks alot about their capability.

Not really. They needed everyone they could get, whether they were poorly trained younglings to regular soldiers. Does the fact that virtually ever Jedi Order has been assisted in war by non-force using soldiers, diminish their capabilities?

Zannah and her friends had no training, they weren't merely poorly trained younglings. And no other Jedi Order has been desperate enough to put children on the battlefield, nor weak enough to think that they could make a difference.

Accidentally voted for the Sith btw, stupid poll...

I think JvS and PoD differ a bit on that, and we don't know that they were planing on sending them to fight without training them, but might have been training them on sight.

maybe it was a sign of how desperate they were that they would use literally anybody if you feel that is the case, but that doesnt reflect on the higher ups, just their priorities (they knew the war was ending and realised that training for the future wasnt that important anymore, hence jedi younglings having shorter training times before being sent to war).

Originally posted by Nephthys
"They are the strongest of our order," Kopecz reminded him. "We both know even the lowliest students on Korriban are stronger than half the so-called Dark Lords here on Ruusan."

Yeah, the Brotherhood really wasn't that great.

I'm assuming that half the Lords were total crap, some where a bit better, but the top were still reasonably strong.


I mean, Bane admitted that Kaan, while a fool, was strong, and Bane's strength is still respected down to the CW (view TCW Season 6 where Yoda visits his tomb).

Well yeah that's what I figure. The top Sith are obviously pretty good, I mean Kaan was mind-controlling a shitton of Sith which is impressive as hell but if half the Lords in the Brotherhood are crap then I'd say that the Order as a whole isn't strong.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Kopekz was just being overly critical?

Plus it's all relative bro. Perhaps the students were just that damn good?

Given that Sirak, the top student at the academy (not including Bane) turned out to be utterly feeble, I highly doubt that the average students were "just that damn good" compared to anyone else. They'd get trounced by Jedi/Sith from almost any other era.

You might say "well Sirak lost to Bane who is heckuva powerful" which would be fair enough except:

1) Bane wasn't at the peak of his power when he beat him (he had improved greatly but he wasn't quite at the pinnacle of his personal growth).

2) It was noted that Bane held back throughout the duel and dragged it out to achieve a truly crushing victory.

3) In the final confrontation Sirak folded the second things went south.

And again, he was supposed to be the best.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well yeah that's what I figure. The top Sith are obviously pretty good, I mean Kaan was mind-controlling a shitton of Sith which is impressive as hell but if half the Lords in the Brotherhood are crap then I'd say that the Order as a whole isn't strong.

Sure the top brass had some powerful figures but the rank and file (which is what this thread is about) were generally weak.

So because Bane was so much better than Sirak Sirak definitely wasn't that good?

Maybe Bane, even then, was just that damn good? He was already ridiculously fast (the move where he defeated Sirak in the first fight he moved so fast time seemed to be frozen and nobody realised what had immediately happened) and had amazing lightning (creating storms the size of a large assembly hall the first time he used it).

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
So because Bane was so much better than Sirak Sirak definitely wasn't that good?

Exactly. Sirak didn't do anything to suggest he was this amazing Sith everyone seemed to think he was. The only impressive thing he did was be able to learn new combat sequences real quick.

Again, he was supposed to be the best student at the top academy. If the valedictorian himself isn't that hot, what does that say about the other students, the ones supposedly levels below him?

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Maybe Bane, even then, was just that damn good? He was already ridiculously fast (the move where he defeated Sirak in the first fight he moved so fast time seemed to be frozen and nobody realised what had immediately happened) and had amazing lightning (creating storms the size of a large assembly hall the first time he used it).

Keep in mind that Bane only achieved that level of super-speed because throughout the duel he was holding back and storing up power before releasing that stored power in a concentrated burst. It's impressive certainly, but he could't do it at the drop of a hat.

What proof do we have that the rank-and-file Sith of this era (and by extension the Jedi they fought) were that good?

According to Astor, the fact that the war had been going on for a thousand years means they must have been good (the best in the mythos in his opinion).

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Exactly.

Why can't Bane just have been that good?



Absence of proof does not = proof of absence.





Not true, he wasn't storing energy up, he was just holding that energy back, he still ahd access to it at the beginning.



The Sith and Jedi of the NSW were the most combat oriented version of Jedi and Sith there had ever been - JvS combat specifically. Over a thousand years to condition themselves to war against other Force Users. No other order of Force Users can say they had that advantage.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Why can't Bane just have been that good?

Why can't Sirak just have been that lame?

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Absence of proof does not = proof of absence.

Maybe not but we go by feats here and Sirak has none.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Not true, he wasn't storing energy up, he was just holding that energy back, he still ahd access to it at the beginning.

Yes true, he was storing energy up.

"He waited until the last possible second before unleashing the energy bottled up inside him in a tremendous rush of power."

The term "bottled up" means that the energy was being stored and held in reserve. The "tremendous rush of power" also shows that it was a concentrated burst, not something he can do just like that.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
The Sith and Jedi of the NSW were the most combat oriented version of Jedi and Sith there had ever been - JvS combat specifically. Over a thousand years to condition themselves to war against other Force Users. No other order of Force Users can say they had that advantage.

The "over a thousand years" bit is a great exaggeration. Jensaarai1 has pointed out that the New Sith Wars occurred in stops and starts. A thousand years of non-stop warfare isn't sustainable.

Plus, as pointed out earlier, the fact that the Jedi were bringing in untrained children shows how desperate they were. Clearly a lot of their veterans were dead and the up-and-comers were under-trained.

No, we sometimes use feats as an indicator of a character's abilities but it isn't our only measure and it doesn't give you freedom to assert that an absence of proof = proof of absence. At the end of the day we go by what is the most probable scenario, and it's simply more likely that somebody who was mistaken to be the Sith'ari simply has absurdly good potential and that Bane was just that much better that he outclassed him, and we are given every reason to believe that Bane was just that fantastic.

You realise that quote doesn't disagree with what I was saying, right? As I said he was holding that energy back throughout the duration of the fight, but he wasn't building it up. He has access to it whenever he chooses to unleash his rage.

The war might have gone cold from time to time, but it was still the reality of the situation throughout the conflict.

It was made clear that this was not characteristic of the Jedi and maybe they were becoming a little desperate by the end of the war, but this thread is about the NSW Jedi as a whole, not just the AoL. Also, I stand by my claim that we have no idea that the Jedi were ready to start using them in combat, or if they simply had to bring them closer to the front lines to be trained, possibly because there were no trainers being held in reserve.

Actually even Lord Kaan was no match for PoD Bane in a duel, I also recall that PoD Bane choked a very senior brotherhood figure to death without any challenge. The only individual who is a good warrior in brotherhood is Kas'im (excluding Bane). All other are shit.

ToR Sith will have a field day with brotherhood, easily demolish the latter group. ToR Sith represent epitome of Sith standards in the mythos.

Bane's stronger because he's got pretty much the best force powers in the time- we've seen there's a number of strong duelists around, the Jedi had multiple ones that were formidable when matched against Bane and Zannah, and presumably pre-thought bomb they'd have a good deal more.

One of Bane's complaints was that the Sith were just learning to swing sabers, and not the true depths of the dark side.

Bane would've beaten Kaan, but he didn't feel Kaan was weak, and I'd say it'd mostly be due to better knowledge of the dark side.


My view is the best of the late-NSW sith were pretty great at sabers due to extreme levels of practice against opponents, but were conversely behind the curve at force knowledge.

From Darth Bane: Path of Destruction:

Lord Kaan knew he was no match for Bane, either physically or through the power of the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
4. Thats not how it works in the TOR era Empire. An Sith Acolyte is put through literal hell just to survive the training on Korriban, often sent on suicidal missions for no reason at all. In the entire mythos the concept of survival of the fittest is most prevailant in this era in these Sith.

Good thing I've finally played some of the Sith classes so that I am now in a position to expose your lies, *****.

It's stated in the "Peace for the Republic?" holovid that the growth of the Sith Empire was largely due to a surprising and uncharacteristic level of cooperation and sacrifice from the Sith.

Likewise, it's revealed during the prologues for the Sith Warrior and Sith Inquisitor classes that fighting between the apprentices was strictly forbidden (everywhere with the exception of Naga Sadow's tomb) and was punishable by death.

Lastly, if you're basing the sucidal missions on the missions the SI was being sent on, it's made clear that overseer Harkun was trying to eliminate him and favoured Ffon Althe, and that it was hardly the norm.

Survival of the fittest most prevalent in this era of Sith? Negro please.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis

It's stated in the "Peace for the Republic?" holovid that the growth of the Sith Empire was largely due to a surprising and uncharacteristic level of cooperation and sacrifice from the Sith.

---

Survival of the fittest most prevalent in this era of Sith? Negro please.


They were the One Sith of their time, at least until things started to come apart during the Peace.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Good thing I've finally played some of the Sith classes so that I am now in a position to expose your lies, *****.

Most of my information comes from the encyclopedia so you should get ready to get embarrassed.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
It's stated in the "Peace for the Republic?" holovid that the growth of the Sith Empire was largely due to a surprising and uncharacteristic level of cooperation and sacrifice from the Sith.

True, for the most part Vitiate keeps everyone working together and his unquestionable authority prevents serious in-fighting.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Likewise, it's revealed during the prologues for the Sith Warrior and Sith Inquisitor classes that fighting between the apprentices was strictly forbidden (everywhere with the exception of Naga Sadow's tomb) and was punishable by death.

Lastly, if you're basing the sucidal missions on the missions the SI was being sent on, it's made clear that overseer Harkun was trying to eliminate him and favoured Ffon Althe, and that it was hardly the norm.

The same was true in PoD and was still noted to be ignored when it suited people. Just like in the TOR era it was only technically forbidden. It still happens all the freaking time. "Strictlt forbidden' just means 'Don't be seen. Too much.' You have opportunities to fight and kill other acolytes practically in plain view in the game.

Other apprentices aren't the only thing acolytes had to worry about. The standards of the academy are truly brutal and often a single mistake is the end of the road. If that. Sometimes theres no mistake at all. As I recall Harkun kills an acolyte for absolutely no reason at one point. Theres a plethora of other threats like beasts, droids, failed acolytes and other things as well.

"Instructors of Sith acolytes, the overseers are tasked with rooting out the weak and molding the next great Sith who will lead the Empire to glory. Cruelty, manipulation and deceit are choice tools of instruction. By demanding nothing short of perfection from their class of students, acolytes quickly learn the cost of failure. While still a young teacher, Overseer Ragate took delight in cutting down the first acolyte to stumble under her tutelage - a grim and effective warning to her surviving students.

Brutality is only one way an overseer shapes Sith acolytes. Some plant seeds of deception, showering weaker acolytes with praise to goad another student to strike them down. Others dispatch students on impossible tasks in the deadly tombs or hostile wastes of Korriban. Overseer Rance was one such instructor, sending his students into the lower wilds. For days, the corrupting influence of Korribans wilds twisted their minds and drove the students mad. Only two students returned to Rance. He simply smiled and ordered the exhausted acolytes to battle to the death. The victor would be Sith."

"But regardless of their background, most acolytes die utter failures, their weakness exposed by the crushing demands of the Sith Academy on Korriban.

Whether broken by the overseers instruction, struck down by their fellow acolytes or devoured by the beasts of Korriban, many acolytes perish during traning."


By comparison to its earlier brutality, the academy on Korriban that we see in PoD looks like a toddler daycare.


Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Survival of the fittest most prevalent in this era of Sith? Negro please.

The TOR academy is the definition of survival of the fittest. You read the above. Nothing short of perfection is needed to survive.

It should be noted the Thanaton was slated to pretty much be tossed aside- even *if* he had succeeded in his impossible mission of beating the Emperor's apprentice- had he not uncovered valuable bribe material in the process.

So it's often more a matter of luck or politics than potential/strength that allows survival.