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So could Revan beat Zannah in a force fight?
Or would her Illusions break his mind?

Revan is honestly one of the few characters I could see resisting her illusions.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Revan is honestly one of the few characters I could see resisting her illusions. Do you think he could resist them twice? Illusions are her primary response in battle so he would get hit with them early on. But what if she hit him with it again, I think it would eventually wear out the mind

Is this Revan Reborn? If so, he would be very experienced with mind crushing tricks after 300 years of torture from Vitiate.

I didn't specify so the most powerful incarnation should be assumed. And yea Revan would probably win, but I honestly couldn't think of many other characters that can actually cope with Zannahs op illusions

True.

But Zannah is more powerful than Revan imo.

I lol at you ^

Darth Bane couldn't beat her with the Force, do you really think Revan will?

Zannah's only attacks against Bane that allowed her to do such was her sorcery and tendrils, and she can't use her tendrils here.

I was more talking about how Bane is unable to beat her with his Force powers. She can slap aside his lightning and he can't outmatch her with TK. Hell, at one point she blows through his force shield and smashes him into a wall.

My memory on the book is poor, but wasn't Bane weakened by his prolonged torture?

He'd recovered by then. Plus that wouldn't effect his force abilities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She can slap aside his lightning
With her lightsaber.

Point of information here, do the combatants get their lightsabers for the purpose of defending agaisnt certain force attacks or are they completely unarmed?

Originally posted by Nephthys
and he can't outmatch her with TK.
This is an impressive telekinetic showing on her part.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hell, at one point she blows through his force shield and smashes him into a wall.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
My memory on the book is poor, but wasn't Bane weakened by his prolonged torture?
The drugs and his system and him being almost completely off guard resulted in his being knocked into the wall.

No, Bane had purged himself of the drugs by that point. Also he was able to react and put up his force defenses, but she still smashed through them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, Bane had purged himself of the drugs by that point. Also he was able to react and put up his force defenses, but she still smashed through them.
"Bane could still feel the lingering effects of the drugs in his system. He'd done what he could to burn them away with the fire of the dark side, but the Sith were not as adept as the Jedi at cleansing their systems of impurities. The last dregs of the chemicals would simply have to break down naturally over time. Until then he would be at less than full strength. A fraction slower in thoughts and actions, less adept at wielding the power of the Force. And he was still without his lightsaber."-DOE

She also caught him off guard. He managed to throw up a barrier instinctively, but had he been aware of her he would've more effectively defended against her.

^ So Bane is weaker then normal and unprepared. :/

Ah, whatever. He was a fraction weaker. Big whoop. He was unable to overpower her in the last fight either. She blocked his lightning then as well.

Bane wasn't unprepared. In fact, he'd been charging up his power right before her attack.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ah, whatever. He was a fraction weaker. Big whoop. He was unable to overpower her in the last fight either. She blocked his lightning then as well.

Bane wasn't unprepared. In fact, he'd been charging up his power right before her attack.
She blocked his lightning with her lightsaber

If you've ever been hungover, you'll know that the remnants of substances can be quite a detriment.

I also noticed that that was the only TK hit she got on him ever, implying that it's not something that would normally happen, and was only a result of his not being aware of her until the last moment.

@Neph No, he was a fraction slower, not a fraction weaker.
However, the fact it says "adept", which means "highly skilled", stands to reason his Force powers are still marginally weakened, and that enough can change the difference of a battle. This continues my confirmation Zannah would fall to Revan, or probably even Malak.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Neph No, he was a fraction slower, not a fraction weaker.
However, the fact it says "adept", which means "highly skilled", stands to reason his Force powers are still marginally weakened, and that enough can change the difference of a battle. This continues my confirmation Zannah would fall to Revan, or probably even Malak.

No shit. Its the same thing. As you said he was at best marginally weaker, which would easily be cancelled out by him building up his power right before her attack. And even a marginally weaker Bane is more powerful than Revan and Malak, so shes still more powerful than they are.

Laugh my ****ing ass off at the idea that Malak can beat her though. Regular Malak is a joke bro. Sorry, but it's true. Even Star Forge Malak would get shitstomped by Zannah.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
She blocked his lightning with her lightsaber

If you've ever been hungover, you'll know that the remnants of substances can be quite a detriment.

I also noticed that that was the only TK hit she got on him ever, implying that it's not something that would normally happen, and was only a result of his not being aware of her until the last moment.

So what?

Bane says that it was merely the dregs and that he was just a fraction slower.

Actually Zannah comments during the fight that theres really no point in trying to toss each other around since it wouldn't actually achieve anything between them.





Also, man reading that book again reminds me of how poor of a writer Drew is. Explaining basic concepts about the force in the middle of a fight scene is amateur hour. Gee, thanks Drew I totally didn't know what a ****ing force shield was at that point you fat hack.

Falls to Revan, kills Malak.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually Zannah comments during the fight that theres really no point in trying to toss each other around since it wouldn't actually achieve anything between them.
This statement right here. Neither would get an edge over eachother with TK.

Yeah, which is why Zannah > Revan with the Force.



Though, as I recall Zannah does think afterwards that she should have just overwhelmed him with the Force instead of going for a lightsaber kill.

You think Bane would rag doll Revan?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, which is why Zannah > Revan with the Force.
I never argued for or against that notion. Merely that Zannah is not capable of hurling Bane under normal circumstances.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You think Bane would rag doll Revan?

No?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I never argued for or against that notion. Merely that Zannah is not capable of hurling Bane under normal circumstances.

Theres nothing suggesting she couldn't. Zannah doesn't think she can't hurl him, she just thinks that it would be pointless and wouldn't lead to anything. I mean, Bane recovered instantly and was completely unharmed from her push.

You said the reason Zannah is > Revan with the Force is because Bane can't throw her around, that implies Revan would be?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres nothing suggesting she couldn't. Zannah doesn't think she can't hurl him, she just thinks that it would be pointless and wouldn't lead to anything. I mean, Bane recovered instantly and was completely unharmed from her push.
Yet in every other situation when he's bearing down on her, such a capability would be useless?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You said the reason Zannah is > Revan with the Force is because Bane can't throw her around, that implies Revan would be?

Bane would overpower Revan with the Force. That doesn't mean he'd be ragdolled. Vitiate couldn't ragdoll Revan.

I'm saying the reason Zannah is > Revan is because she's portrayed as an equal to Bane. With neither of them having an edge with the Force until sorcery comes into play.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yet in every other situation when he's bearing down on her, such a capability would be useless?

He'd just get up and charge her again. And I imagine it would take effort to actually break his barriers and toss him. It would be more draining to her (or in reverse) than damaging to him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He'd just get up and charge her again. And I imagine it would take effort to actually break his barriers and toss him. It would be more draining to her (or in reverse) than damaging to him.
I have a difficult time believing that Zannah is that much telekinetically stronger than Bane, if at all considering Bane's TK feats.

Revan wins,

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I have a difficult time believing that Zannah is that much telekinetically stronger than Bane, if at all considering Bane's TK feats.

I don't think she's stronger at all. He could do the same, probably.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think she's stronger at all. He could do the same, probably.
I could agree with that to an extent. I thought you were trying to imply that she could do that to him whenever she wanted, but he could not respond in kind.

Nah, all I said was that he can't outmatch her in TK. Not that she's superior to him with it. He was, as you said, minorly weakened and possibly not putting up as strong of a shield as he could. I do still think that it likely evens out with him amping beforehand though.

Mainly I'm just trying to get people to start taking Zannah seriously. I mean, really, Malak beating her? B*tch please.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mainly I'm just trying to get people to start taking Zannah seriously. I mean, really, Malak beating her? B*tch please.
agreed

Her illusions are vastly impressive as I've shown on my topic created for just that purpose. Her defense allowed her to hold her own against Bane's 30 strikes per second. And while she's uncomfortable taking an offensive role, she is more than comfortable using offensive maneuvers to exploit openings.

You know Neph if you are that interested in Bane and Zannah I could PM you the links of a few Bane topics I've made.

Ok.

So at last, the two Bane fans of different forums unite.

Neb is a way bigger Bane fan than me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok.
K sent you the PM

Zannah has her illusions and her tentacle thing that severs limbs, but if this is Revan with all of his memories back, I imagine him showing her why he was called the Heart of the Force. Has Zannah demonstrated via force alone that she can resist his Force Storm and Force Wave? And is Insanity a canon power for Revan? If so, it would be interesting to see her having to endure a mind assault.

She can't use tendrils here, she needs a nexus for that, at least based on the fact she never uses it anywhere else.

No, but Force Fear is. Though it is most likely true Revan knows Force Insanity, it's not confirmed. He actually even performs Force Fear in the novel as well. However, neither will effect a master of sorcery like Zannah. He would have to use his other strengths.

Originally posted by Darth _Sadow1
Has Zannah demonstrated via force alone that she can resist his Force Storm and Force Wave?

Bane couldn't effect her with his TK or lightning so.....

Also she has. As a child she used a Force Bubble to defend against the Ruusan Force Storm that was composed of hundreds of forks of lightning and a firestorm.

She blocked his lightning with her saber. :/
And I forget when she shrugs off Bane's TK, mind posting it?

She blocked his planet-wide Force Storm as an untrained child.

If Bane could have effected her with his TK he would have tried it under the Stone Prison. He admits that he would have died and had no hope of beating her if he hadn't of triggered that explosion.

This, like the snapping of necks, were of primal instinct, not her own actions. Ironically, these are honestly some of her best showings, and the fact she has never replicated them again shows that despite she has yet to reach her true potential by the time she defeats, some of her feats are not eligible yet to use in a debate.


Speculation.
Speculation everywhere.


Because he was weaker.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
This, like the snapping of necks, were of primal instinct, not her own actions. Ironically, these are honestly some of her best showings, and the fact she has never replicated them again shows that despite she has yet to reach her true potential by the time she defeats, some of her feats are not eligible yet to use in a debate.

Still representative of her power. And do you seriously think she couldn't snap necks if she wanted to as Zannah? She hit a woman with the force of a ****ing train in DoE.

She's never in a position to replicate them. That doesn't mean she can't. How would she even replicate blocking a planet wide force storm? There isn't a New Jersey in Star Wars. She used a lightsaber to bat away Banes lightning because its far more effective and easier to do that. That doesn't mean she can't use a Force Bubble, which even Worror could do.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Speculation.
Speculation everywhere.

It's called common sense. If Bane could have affected her with his TK he would have. He had no options other than the Force yet he had to resort to the fancy Force Bubble instead of just trying to push her away.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Because he was weaker.

Marginally.

*Still representative of her potential.

She never did again.

She instinctively puts up a force shield?

Which is why to use this as evidence she could do the same to Revan's FLS is lame.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_3aKGhN1J8Xs/TMYehtNZlrI/AAAAAAAAAPM/LhoZiWKyqa4/s1600/pure+spec+festival+edmonton.jpg

Which is something that Bane wouldn't completely have, thanks to being drugged. Bad choice of words.


This logic is embarrassing, come on Neph. By your logic, this means if someone doesn't use TK in their fight, it is because it won't effect them. Guess Anakin's TK can't always effect Battledroids, or Revan's TK can't effect Mandalorians. Hell, I guess this means Dooku's TK can't effect those pirates.

Nope.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
*Still representative of her potential.

Unless she only fulfilled 30 per cent (I'm feeling generous) of her potential she can still block Revan's Force Storm. Because Revan's Force Storm doesn't rate compared to the Storm she defended against.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
She never did again.

So what? She's one of the most powerful and skiled Sith Lords in history, of course she can do it again. Jesus.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
She instinctively puts up a force shield?

That's not how it works, otherwise people would constantly be accessing their full potential by instinct in a crisis. She's already been trained to throw up an instinctive Force shield against attacks, remember? So I guess she can block it derrrp!

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Which is why to use this as evidence she could do the same to Revan's FLS is lame.

No, that's not why.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_3aKGhN1J8Xs/TMYehtNZlrI/AAAAAAAAAPM/LhoZiWKyqa4/s1600/pure+spec+festival+edmonton.jpg

Actually since she possesses all the info in Freedon Nadds holocron, it's more of a simply deduction. She's the freaking Dark Lord of the Sith, of course she knows how to do a ****ing Force Bubble, a technique she performed instinctively as a 12 year old.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Which is something that Bane wouldn't completely have, thanks to being drugged. Bad choice of words.

He wasn't drugged at the time you shitbird, he'd neutralized all but the very dregs. His thinking would be unaffected, as proven by him thinking of a way to get away by detonating the demolition charges.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
This logic is embarrassing, come on Neph. By your logic, this means if someone doesn't use TK in their fight, it is because it won't effect them. Guess Anakin's TK can't always effect Battledroids, or Revan's TK can't effect Mandalorians. Hell, I guess this means Dooku's TK can't effect those pirates.

Wrooooong. Your logic is embarrassing. Anakin and Revan had other options available to them and simply chose not to use it. Dooku would have been shot if he'd have tried to do anything like that since he has no weapon. Bane ONLY had the Force available to him and yet he didn't use it to directly attack Zannah with TK. If he were capable of it, he would have done so. He tries to attack her with lightning directly, but its ineffective so he tries to blow up the ground under her feet. That he resorted to such indirect methods proves that his direct methods wouldn't have worked. Of which TK is one of those methods.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nope.

Yes. It was only the very dregs of the drugs that were left and we know it had a marginal effect on his reflexes, so it would have a similar level of effect on his Force abilities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Unless she only fulfilled 30 per cent (I'm feeling generous) of her potential she can still block Revan's Force Storm. Because Revan's Force Storm doesn't rate compared to the Storm she defended against.



So what? She's one of the most powerful and skiled Sith Lords in history, of course she can do it again. Jesus.



That's not how it works, otherwise people would constantly be accessing their full potential by instinct in a crisis. She's already been trained to throw up an instinctive Force shield against attacks, remember? So I guess she can block it derrrp!



No, that's not why.



Actually since she possesses all the info in Freedon Nadds holocron, it's more of a simply deduction. She's the freaking Dark Lord of the Sith, of course she knows how to do a ****ing Force Bubble, a technique she performed instinctively as a 12 year old.



He wasn't drugged at the time you shitbird, he'd neutralized all but the very dregs. His thinking would be unaffected, as proven by him thinking of a way to get away by detonating the demolition charges.



Wrooooong. Your logic is embarrassing. Anakin and Revan had other options available to them and simply chose not to use it. Dooku would have been shot if he'd have tried to do anything like that since he has no weapon. Bane ONLY had the Force available to him and yet he didn't use it to directly attack Zannah with TK. If he were capable of it, he would have done so. He tries to attack her with lightning directly, but its ineffective so he tries to blow up the ground under her feet. That he resorted to such indirect methods proves that his direct methods wouldn't have worked. Of which TK is one of those methods.



Yes. It was only the very dregs of the drugs that were left and we know it had a marginal effect on his reflexes, so it would have a similar level of effect on his Force abilities.
1. Again, if you've ever been hungover before, you'll know that the remaints of something can be a huge detriment. Particularly something as apparently potent as senflax.

2. "Whatever the explanation, Bane knew one thing for certain: He didn't want to face Zannah right now. Not while he was still recovering from the toxins Serra had used to render him helpless" Evidently they are still a significant detriment to his abilities.

3. Bane likely wouldn't have used TK because he was unarmed, weakened, and cornered, and would there for be trying to conserve his energy as much as possible to keep up a steady defense.

4. Dooku did get his lightsaber back in his fight with the pirates.

1. I have never been hungover. And thats a false comparison.

2. That's an assumption. Just because he was affected doesn't mean he was affected badly by it. He also didn't have his lightsaber.

3. Yet he was spamming lightning at her feet just to slow her down a tiny bit. And firing bolts at her chest as well. And as I pointed out he used an elaborate Force Bubble defense to stop her from cutting him down instead of just trying to TK her.

4. I meant when he surrendered.

**** bane and his fanboys

Originally posted by Nephthys
1. I have never been hungover. And thats a false comparison.

2. That's an assumption. Just because he was affected doesn't mean he was affected badly by it. He also didn't have his lightsaber.

3. Yet he was spamming lightning at her feet just to slow her down a tiny bit. And firing bolts at her chest as well. And as I pointed out he used an elaborate Force Bubble defense to stop her from cutting him down instead of just trying to TK her.

4. I meant when he surrendered.
1. Well then you wouldn't know, would you?

2. It was evidently an important factor.

3. Lightning requires her to block it with her saber instead of cutting him down with her saber. TKing her would require him to penetrate her force defenses, which would seemingly take more energy.

4. I was referring to how Hondo said Dooku cut up some of his men with his lightsaber.

It doesn't need to compare, because Zannah wouldn't be able to replicate the feat surviving such a storm again. For example in Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, she disintegrates a hand. She never replicated such a feat again, even against weak opponents, besides with the use of tendrils. Primal instinct or desperate final acts are not a fair representation of a character's power. Otherwise, Darth Nihilus would have drained the Mandalorian boarding party by the time the boarded, or Starkiller could have never stood up against Palpatine. She actually used a Force Barrier again in Darth Bane: Rule of Two, but that didn't save her from being knocked to the ground, and then having to "scramble to her feet."

Double standards, I see.
Darth Zannah is never even stated to be knowledge of being among the most powerful, unlike Darth Malak, who is not only stated to be among the most powerful, but is compared to the likes of Palpatine, yet you claim he "kind of sucks."
Darth Zannah did do it again, like I said above, but it is not even comparable to her defense against the Force Storm.

What? My memory of it is poor, but she was not even titled "Zannah" yet. She was just a young girl hanging out with Bouncers.

"Bane could still feel the lingering effects of the drugs in his system. He'd done what he could to burn them away with the fire of the dark side, but the Sith were not as adept as the Jedi at cleansing their systems of impurities. The last dregs of the chemicals would simply have to break down naturally over time. Until then he would be at less than full strength. A fraction slower in thoughts and actions, less adept at wielding the power of the Force...."


Darth Bane also had other options a swell, such as lightning which he used, and then he chose not to use telekinesis.
And don't act as if you are on the same intelligence level as someone like Darth Bane to jump to conclusions on why he does or doesn't do something. Also, Darth Bane later manages to send her "wheeling backwards" on page 297.

No. It is said he is " less adept at wielding the power of the Force." Adept means "very skilled" or "proficient", so he would be "less......at wielding the power of the Force.". The Norway Post uses the term less proficient when describing a number one ranking to a number five ranking. The distance is ultimately enough to make a difference in a fight.

Originally posted by PTforthewin
**** bane and his fanboys
The grownups are trying to have a serious conversation here. Why don't you go back into your playpen and play with your dollies?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
1. Well then you wouldn't know, would you?

2. It was evidently an important factor.

3. Lightning requires her to block it with her saber instead of cutting him down with her saber. TKing her would require him to penetrate her force defenses, which would seemingly take more energy.

4. I was referring to how Hondo said Dooku cut up some of his men with his lightsaber.

1. Bane specifically says that his mind is "sharp and focused."

2. Yeah, because all he had was the Force and he wasn't even 100% with it.

3. And TK would, according to you, toss her back or stop her. And it didn't take Zannah much energy to penerate his defenses. :V Also Bane was drained from the duel anyway so his actions were evidently quite costly.

4. I've never seen the episode and don't care.

I still don't get that whole pirate thing... Dooku could have easily slaughtered them all on the spot. Why he didn't I have no idea. I guess he wanted to experience what it is like to be Handos prison *****

Maybe he sucks.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It doesn't need to compare, because Zannah wouldn't be able to replicate the feat surviving such a storm again.

And I said that even if she's capable of a barrier less than half as powerful as the one she used there, she'd still be able to block it. And somehow I think she is.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
For example in Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, she disintegrates a hand. She never replicated such a feat again, even against weak opponents, besides with the use of tendrils.

I was waiting for you to bring that up, so that I could point out that Zannah consciously blew up her cousins arm. It wasn't entirely a primal or instinctive use of the Force, she screwed up her eyes, concentrated and blew it the hell up.

http://img1.starwars-holonet.com/holonet/dictionnaire/photos/perso_darovit_5.jpg

Either way it's something she can obviously replicate as a much more skilled Sith Lord at the height of her power. I seriously don't see the reasoning behind suggesting she can't even if it was instinctual. Instinctual use of the Force isn't THAT powerful.

Remember that Zannah surprised Bane with the strength of her TK attack on him even at the start of RoT, when she was still a child.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Primal instinct or desperate final acts are not a fair representation of a character's power. Otherwise, Darth Nihilus would have drained the Mandalorian boarding party by the time the boarded,

What the hell does that have to do with anything? And Nihilus didn't drain them because he never even noticed them. They're beneath his notice.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
or Starkiller could have never stood up against Palpatine. She actually used a Force Barrier again in Darth Bane: Rule of Two, but that didn't save her from being knocked to the ground, and then having to "scramble to her feet."

She was hit by a Force attack from Bane. It's not bad that she failed to fully block an attack from a berserk Bane. That she blocked it even partially is highly impressive and a good feat. And she was only half trained at the time.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Double standards, I see.
Darth Zannah is never even stated to be knowledge of being among the most powerful, unlike Darth Malak, who is not only stated to be among the most powerful, but is compared to the likes of Palpatine, yet you claim he "kind of sucks."
Darth Zannah did do it again, like I said above, but it is not even comparable to her defense against the Force Storm.

Never been stated but undeniably is. She has more raw power than Bane does.

Kind of sucking is a relative term. He can kind of suck and still be one of the most powerful ever, like Maul or something.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What? My memory of it is poor, but she was not even titled "Zannah" yet. She was just a young girl hanging out with Bouncers.

I meant that she's been trained to put up an instinctual barrier by Bane.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Bane could still feel the lingering effects of the drugs in his system. He'd done what he could to burn them away with the fire of the dark side, but the Sith were not as adept as the Jedi at cleansing their systems of impurities. The last dregs of the chemicals would simply have to break down naturally over time. Until then he would be at less than full strength. A fraction slower in thoughts and actions, less adept at wielding the power of the Force...."

And a fraction is by definition a small amount. Bane's thoughts were mildly affected, Bane himself said his mind was sharp and focused.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Darth Bane also had other options a swell, such as lightning which he used, and then he chose not to use telekinesis.
And don't act as if you are on the same intelligence level as someone like Darth Bane to jump to conclusions on why he does or doesn't do something. Also, Darth Bane later manages to send her "wheeling backwards" on page 297.

Except that Bane's lightning was ineffective against her lightsaber defense ad only good for disrupting her footwork. If he truly could have been effective with his TK then it would be utter idiocy not to use that. If a guy has an effective attack yet continues to use an ineffectual one then you don't need to be as smart as Bane to know that that man is a phucking retard.

Looking through the book that phrase never appears so I'm going to need to full quote of him doing that. And I'll point out again that she tossed him into a wall despite him charging up beforehand.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No. It is said he is " less adept at wielding the power of the Force." Adept means "very skilled" or "proficient", so he would be "less......at wielding the power of the Force.". The Norway Post uses the term less proficient when describing a number one ranking to a number five ranking. The distance is ultimately enough to make a difference in a fight.

Yes, I know what less adept means, thauk you. And that example is hilariously shitty. All it says is less adept, not how much less adept. Its to vague to be proven to have any more than a marginal effect.

And I don't really think she is if her best barrier feat in combat is still making her get blown off her feet. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/smilies/cartoon/erm.gif

Which is exactly why I also said "desperate final acts", and then gave the example of Starkiller vs Darth Sidious. It was her final act to try and save his life, it was the only thing left she could do, like Starkiller. And also like Starkiller, they never replicated it again, and Zannah had many chances to do such.

Darth Nihilus and the Jedi Exile?
Your claim that Anakin's Force Scream is instinctual and is therefore not eligible?

Of course she did, why wouldn't she? She is a little girl, Bane would have never suspected such potential in someone like her.

Darth Nihilus could sense a Wound in the Force across the galaxy, he without a doubt knew they were coming, especially since Marr was there with them.

It's bad if this is her best barrier showing in combat, which it is. Therefore, it proves she cannot block all of Revan's attacks.

So once again:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_3aKGhN1J8Xs/TMYehtNZlrI/AAAAAAAAAPM/LhoZiWKyqa4/s1600/pure+spec+festival+edmonton.jpg

Then it wouldn't be instinctual...
and when did he do that?

When contesting against someone like Zannah, where your mind was be at full, even the slightest of weakness can make a difference.

Quote?

Oxymoron much?

Vitiate had numerous attacks he could have used in his fight with Tython, but he chose to use the ineffectual ones. Guess he is a "phucking retard."

My mistake, it is "reeling backwards." I didn't even know that is a word, but it has the same meaning.
"For a second she thought Bane had let out a shrike, but the burst of energy that followed sent her reeling backwards."

Except it would be greater then marginal effect. And even if it is marginal effect, that is enough to make a difference to two high tier opponents.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And I don't really think she is if her best barrier feat in combat is still making her get blown off her feet. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/smilies/cartoon/erm.gif

By BANE. When she was half-trained in RoT. Jesus, and you were lecturing me about logic. Failing to completely block a Force Wave from a berserk Bane (who's more powerful than Revan) is hardly a bad feat. It's Bane. He's that freaking powerful. That she managed to block it as much as she did, half-trained, is probably PROOF that she can block Revan's attacks as her older self.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Which is exactly why I also said "desperate final acts", and then gave the example of Starkiller vs Darth Sidious. It was her final act to try and save his life, it was the only thing left she could do, like Starkiller. And also like Starkiller, they never replicated it again, and Zannah had many chances to do such.

Except it wasn't a desperate final act. Desperate final acts are notable because its the person putting all their power into that last move and using absolutely everything. Zannah didn't do that. She was desperate, but no more so than a bunch of people in similar life or death situations.

Because Zannah likes to be more subtle about things than just blowing them up. As I pointed out, she pasted a woman with a Force wave and smashed Bane into a wall which > disintegrating a hand.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Darth Nihilus and the Jedi Exile?
Your claim that Anakin's Force Scream is instinctual and is therefore not eligible?

That's not even close to the same thing. They don't get great power from instinctively using the Force, they instinctively use the Force to get great power. Its completely different. All they do is drain it from people.

Aren't all Force Scream somewhat instinctive? And I said that because it was him tapping into the darkside as well as his potential. Which is different to Zannah anyway since she actually accesses her potential after doing that feat. If there was an Anakin 30 years in the future of the feat who had become infinitely more masterful with the Force I would of course say he could replicate it and it would be an eligible feat. Anakin was tapping into potential he hadn't unlocked at that point. A good deal of Zannah's potential was unlocked by her after doing that feat. As a Sith Lord with a massively improved mastery of the Force she should be capable of replicating it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Of course she did, why wouldn't she? She is a little girl, Bane would have never suspected such potential in someone like her.

Um, because he found her after she'd murdered two Jedi? Bane can sense the power she possesses. Its the only reason he chose her as his apprentice, as per his own thoughts on the matter. That she was still capable of surprising him with her power is a good indication of her power.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Darth Nihilus could sense a Wound in the Force across the galaxy, he without a doubt knew they were coming, especially since Marr was there with them.

He was starving and solely focused on Telos, as per Marr's opinion. Even if he noticed them, he wouldn't notice the mando's nor care enough to drain them.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's bad if this is her best barrier showing in combat, which it is. Therefore, it proves she cannot block all of Revan's attacks.

Lolwut? Are you even trying today? And Revan was thrown on his ass by Vitiate so I guess Zannah will be Force pwning him too.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So once again:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_3aKGhN1J8Xs/TMYehtNZlrI/AAAAAAAAAPM/LhoZiWKyqa4/s1600/pure+spec+festival+edmonton.jpg

It isn't pure speculation that Zannah is just as powerful or more powerful than Bane. Which 100% makes her one of the most powerful Sith ever and waaaaay more powerful than a joke like Malak.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Then it wouldn't be instinctual...
and when did he do that?

You can be trained to react instinctively to attacks, easily.

When he.... trained her?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
When contesting against someone like Zannah, where your mind was be at full, even the slightest of weakness can make a difference.

Except that we're only talking about this in regards to whether Bane was drugged enough to lack common sense. Try to keep up, Ant.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Quote?

"The dull gray fog that had clouded his thoughts was clearing, leaving his mind sharp and focused." - Before Bane breaks out of his restraints. Well before his fight with Zannah.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Oxymoron much?

Defensive much?

He kind of sucks next to the truly great like Revan or Bane. He's incredible next to chaff Kotor Jedi.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Vitiate had numerous attacks he could have used in his fight with Tython, but he chose to use the ineffectual ones. Guess he is a "phucking retard."

None of which would have been effective, so not a good comparison. Plus we only saw the end of the fight. Vitiate was also heavily wounded. He tried to pour everything into a last ditch power struggle. Not a retarded plan. He had no other options left.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except it would be greater then marginal effect. And even if it is marginal effect, that is enough to make a difference to two high tier opponents.

I don't really see why. There's a large difference between Revan and Vitiate yet he could still compete somewhat in a Force duel. A fraction of a difference between Bane and Zannah wouldn't matter much. If it was really so significant that Bane could beat Zannah with the Force at 100% he.... would have actually beaten her that way in the final fight.

I'll reply soon.

And she is facing REVAN. With the exception of the nexus's of Lehon and Ruusan, Darth Bane's telekinesis is not superior to Revan's. Revan's TK strong enough to throw the Empire's "most powerful champions" across a huge platform, send asteroids flying downward, and make Vitiate packing. And by your logic, if Vitiate can't use a Force Barrier to prevent him from getting TK'ed, there is no way Zannah can either.

Ah, forgot to mention something: Zannah is only a couple meters next to like...ya know...the most powerful nexus ever which contains the souls of thousands of Jedi/Sith.

However, Chapter 9 says "By crippling him, Rain had spared his life; a final act of mercy before she fell under the sway of her new dark side Master. It was a desperate final act...to save his life. It's the only thing she could have done to save it, and so she did it. The fact she never does it again, which would have been handy for her against the Jedi Strike Team, shows something about her, doesn't it?


You say "Instinctual use of the Force isn't THAT powerful.", but then you say it grants them great powers. :/ Which one do you pick?

Darth Bane's wasn't.


This makes no sense. Anakin is tapping into his potential, yet he doesn't have access to it? He would need some access to be able to tap into it. Hell, I'm not even sure Zannah even tapped into her potential, she probably just drew off the massive Force Nexus right next to her.


I'm not disagreeing with you? However with such, you are implying Prime Zannah strength>Prime Bane strength. I don't agree to such, for it also implies Prime Congus strength>>Prime Bane strength. And so forth, so by the time of Sidious, Sidious should be able to wipe the floor with Bane, which isn't the case.


Not really. By this logic, like above, Sidious would be waaaaay more powerful then Bane.


Your comparing Zannah's TK to Vitiates?


Uh, what?
Zannah blocks the Force Storm ritual well before Bane even knows she exists. She does it in I believe the 3rd comic. Bane doesn't meet her till the 6th comic. You need some sleep bro.

No, you are, for you believe Bane doesn't use TK because he can't, which is stupid as **** considering at the end of the novel he uses it. So your point no longer even holds at all.

Vitiate should have done mind domination from the start, I doubt he needs his strength absolutely full to do it.

There isn't a large distance. Take Vitiate off Dromaund Kaas, put him on some neutral grounds, and get a coin ready to determine to the victor, because it's gonna be close.

He uses TK in the final fight to "send her reeling."
And if Bane can do that much, Revan can probably do a tad more.

Y u mad.

b cuz u so dumb

I skim ur txt & c u no read the goddamn Darth Bane book.
I'll respond later, but I suggest you fix up some of your points, or re-read certain parts of the Bane trilogy b cuz u so dumb

I'm sorry what? when did Bane use TK on Zannah in their final fight?

"Zannah watched as Bane huddled against the ground, his lightsaber flailing wildly at invisible ghosts, but she didn't let her concentration falter. Bane's mind was strong; if she let up even for an instant he might break free of the spell.

For a second she thought she had won as Bane let out a shriek, but the burst of energy that followed sent her reeling backward.

Regaining her balance she saw that Bane was on his feet again, and she knew he had resisted the spell. But she still had one more surprise for her Master."

Originally posted by Nephthys
"Zannah watched as Bane huddled against the ground, his lightsaber flailing wildly at invisible ghosts, but she didn't let her concentration falter. Bane's mind was strong; if she let up even for an instant he might break free of the spell.

For a second she thought she had won as Bane let out a shriek, but the burst of energy that followed sent her reeling backward.

Regaining her balance she saw that Bane was on his feet again, and she knew he had resisted the spell. But she still had one more surprise for her Master."
Oh that

It doesn't prove shit since she was concentrating on her spell and all it did was make her stumble a bit.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It doesn't prove shit since she was concentrating on her spell and all it did was make her stumble a bit.
It also wasn't directed at her. and it wasn't TK.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4149/5046091402_029de93f24.jpg

Because we don't need that as a reason why he can't, because there are much better reasons.

That's not even a game mechanic ability iirc, you just made it up. It's telekinesis, lol. He summons both powers of the Force and unleashes it in a Force blast, aka telekinesis.

This only make it look worse for the Strike Team getting their asses thrown 20 meters numerous times.

Except this isn't true...
and Bane>Zannah in TK.

I see despite all your years in Star Wars debates, your knowledge in nexus's are limited. You don't need to tap into the power of nexus's manually, being merely near it gives you strength. Otherwise, Jedi would be unaffected by Dark Side nexus's, which is not the case. Also, she is capable of tapping into the nexus of Ruusan to amplify her speed:
"She'd used her newfound talents in the Force to propel herself along, running so fast that the world passed by her in a blur of wind and color. But while the Force may have been infinite, her ability to draw upon it was not. Her skills were still developing, and fatigue had set in quickly. She had felt her pace slowing as her strength ebbed, and though she tried to summon the power of the dark side again by tapping into her deep reserves of anger and hate, her exhausted will could only call up the faintest flicker of a response."

Darth Bane would kill him right there and then if she didn't do that. It was "her final act of mercy" to save a one she loved, like Starkiller to Juno and Kota.

No Sith/Jedi in that game was naturally powerful.

Page 297, first full paragraph. The paragraph ends with "...them."
Ima have to make you look for it as your torture for using sarcasm.

I got that much.


This isn't the part I understood because your logic sux. She wouldn't need to access any of her full potential against the arm because the Thought Bomb was right there. What we must look at is when she snaps the necks of those Jedi. She says she didn't even mean to kill them, and does it out of instinct. She is not manually drawing off her potential, but rather doing it without her knowledge. Therefore though she can probably replicate the feat, it is not as if she can manually draw off her potential like you claim.

And Revan possesses "unlimited potential."

According to Bane's teachings, Cognus's power eventually eclipses Zannahs.

Just because she is trained to block Force attacks instinctively doesn't mean she can re-replicate herself surviving Bane's ritual, which you are saying she can.

Except the fact that the TK was not even directed at her yet she was pushed back shows something. Imagine if he unleashed a burst at her personally. She would be sent packing.

You know it to be true.

What I said above ^

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Because we don't need that as a reason why he can't, because there are much better reasons.

Nice concession.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's not even a game mechanic ability iirc, you just made it up. It's telekinesis, lol. He summons both powers of the Force and unleashes it in a Force blast, aka telekinesis.

I made up the name, because its easier to say that "That attack that Revan did where he used both the lightside and darkside in conjunction". It wasn't telekinesis though, it was the Force, "in it's purest form," that creates a flash of light which TK doesn't do.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
This only make it look worse for the Strike Team getting their asses thrown 20 meters numerous times.

That's no canonical. It miiiight be canon that Revan can use a Force Wave in that fight. Whether it tossed them around isn't. Just because it does in gameplay means nothing.

Also nice concession.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except this isn't true...
and Bane>Zannah in TK.

It totally is though.

Except that isn't true. Back up that claim or concede it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I see despite all your years in Star Wars debates, your knowledge in nexus's are limited. You don't need to tap into the power of nexus's manually, being merely near it gives you strength. Otherwise, Jedi would be unaffected by Dark Side nexus's, which is not the case. Also, she is capable of tapping into the nexus of Ruusan to amplify her speed:
"She'd used her newfound talents in the Force to propel herself along, running so fast that the world passed by her in a blur of wind and color. But while the Force may have been infinite, her ability to draw upon it was not. Her skills were still developing, and fatigue had set in quickly. She had felt her pace slowing as her strength ebbed, and though she tried to summon the power of the dark side again by tapping into her deep reserves of anger and hate, her exhausted will could only call up the faintest flicker of a response."

No, that's not how it works. Also, I'm pretty sure that the Thought Bomb contained the power within it and needed to be directly accessed anyway. In any case, the Thought Bomb had literally just been created and hadn't become a nexus yet. It isn't mentioned anywhere that it was amping them or even that the Force was strong in that place.

The novel says she did it with her natural affinity with the Force. /discussion

That... what? How does that prove she was tapping into the power of Ruusan? Did you post the wrong quote? She got tired, thanks for... posting that.... I guess?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Darth Bane would kill him right there and then if she didn't do that. It was "her final act of mercy" to save a one she loved, like Starkiller to Juno and Kota.

Except that was Starkillers dying effort and he put everything into it. Zannah was desperate but no more than countless other Force users have been in scores of other works. It's not the same at all. Just because it has the freaking word 'final' in it doesn't mean anything.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No Sith/Jedi in that game was naturally powerful.

Nice concession, again. Wow, you're conceding a lot in this one.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Page 297, first full paragraph. The paragraph ends with "...them."
Ima have to make you look for it as your torture for using sarcasm.

Or I could just not care.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I got that much.

Without the puppets? Hey, I'm impressive buddy!

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
This isn't the part I understood because your logic sux. She wouldn't need to access any of her full potential against the arm because the Thought Bomb was right there. What we must look at is when she snaps the necks of those Jedi. She says she didn't even mean to kill them, and does it out of instinct. She is not manually drawing off her potential, but rather doing it without her knowledge. Therefore though she can probably replicate the feat, it is not as if she can manually draw off her potential like you claim.

Wrong, Zannah isn't said to have been using the Thought Bomb. The novel actually specifically says she did it with her own natural affinity with the Force.

Yeah, that's a valid example. Yes, she did it out of instinct, drawing on her unconscious Force abilities. Its not something she can do usually.

When she was 13.

Of course she can do it when she's a fully trained Sith Lord, since now she can manually draw on what was just her potential at the time she killed those two. Because she has largely fulfilled her potential by that point. Because her mastery of the Force is massively better (and its just obvious that a Sith as powerful as her could curbstomp two random Jedi), it's apparent that she could replicate it. If she can do something as an untrained child, then as the Dark Lord of the Sith, logically she can also do that.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And Revan possesses "unlimited potential."

I swear to god, if you actually take that seriously I'll just stop responding. Its a meaningless phrase by a fallible character. Revan has unlimited potential like Sidious has unlimited power. It means nothing.

Meanwhile, Zannah actually has more potential than Bane.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
According to Bane's teachings, Cognus's power eventually eclipses Zannahs.

That isn't how it works. Bane's teachings don't warp reality to give Cognus more midi-chlorians than Zannah. Unless she's actually said to be more powerful, she is not. The only thing Bane notes is her unique abilities, not her raw power.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Just because she is trained to block Force attacks instinctively doesn't mean she can re-replicate herself surviving Bane's ritual, which you are saying she can.

I know. That was my sarcastic point in the first place. Just because someone is using the Force instinctively doesn't mean they're tapping into their potential. Instinctual use of the Force only means you're using the Force without thinking.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except the fact that the TK was not even directed at her yet she was pushed back shows something. Imagine if he unleashed a burst at her personally. She would be sent packing.

If she were using all her concentration on a spell at the time and not defending herself? Yes, yes she would.

As I said, that proves nothing. You're the one talking about how Zannah's feat isn't reflective of anything since Bane was off guard when she pushed him, eevn though he threw up a shield AND was amping before hand. Zannah wasn't even said to have put up a force shield. I don't even know why we're talking about this.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You know it to be true.

Vitiate >> Revan.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What I said above ^

What you said above was wrong. Try again.

I bookmarked the thread, I'll reply tomorrow. It's late.

You really don't have to keep telling me. I know you're going to respond.

Ultimately, the fight will be decided by Revan's telekinesis and lightning vs Darth Zannah's telekinesis and lightning. To be knowledge, Zannah has never even demonstrated the use of knowledge, so all she has in her arsenal is telekinesis. Her sorcery requires time where, like Vitiate, Revan will savior and be able to effectively TK/Force_in_Balance her.

With such being said, you are being quite bias to claim Zannah can not only overcome Revan's force attacks, but then be able to beat her with her own! We know Zannah is not capable of this.

Enough with Zannah Tk'ed a unprepared Zannah. For all we know, Zannah could have sat in a corner and charged up for 5 minutes.
"He began to gather the dark side, the power slowly building. But before he could unleash it he was hit by a wall of thunderous force rolling out from a corridor to his left. Instinctively he threw up a defensive shield, absorbing the blow. Despite this, he was slammed against the opposite wall, knocking the breath from his lungs."

And yet you dismiss Revan hitting Vitiate since he wasn't prepared, lmfao, Bane didn't even know Zannah was there! Furthermore, to my knowledge that is her best telekinetic feat. Please inform me otherwise if this is not true, but until then, Revan laughs at her.


Consider it a special kind of TK.
Regardless of what it is, and quite frankly I don't give a damn, he can use it against Zannah if she tries to summon any illusions. However, I doubt he would need to anyway, considering he fought off Vitiate's mind domination successfully for 300 years.


Concede now, because you won't win this part.
The game itself is canon. Correct? Gamemechnics have never been stated to be non-canon. Correct?
Good, I see we agree, because it is apart of a canon game, and not stated to be non-canon, so it falls under the canon category of such said game.

Also, I am tired of your double-standards. Like seriously? The other day you posted a video over how you were impressed of a feat some Dark Councilor did against the Sith Strike team, you said something along the lines of "whatever he does, it's pretty damn impressive" or something like such. Yet now you are telling me they are ineligible for a debate? Ha.


They are on Dromaund Kaas, which is said by Luke to be incredibly powerful in the Dark Side, and they can use the Sith Emperor's strength to make them have some Force Resistance. So what? It is not as if Revan channeled his full TK, he did a normal push, nothing special. I would rather be annoyed if the Guard did fly backwards.


Zannah has like one telekinetic feat.
All hail the mighty Zannah, the greatest Tker in the world! http://images.killermovies.com/forums/moresmilies/notworthy.gif



http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/wrong10.jpg


"The pale, glowing orb floating in the center of the chamber was nearly four meters tall. It pulsed with raw power; it made the flesh on Bane's neck crawl and the hair on his arms stand on end. Dark veins of shadow swirled on the shimmering metallic surface in slow, hypnotic rhythms. There was something grotesquely compelling about it, something fascinating yet repulsive at the same time."

"Winter was still a new-and not entirely welcome-phenomenon on Ruusan. Originally it had been a temperate world, its climate controlled and moderated by the vast boreal forests that dominated the planet's surface. But during the prolonged conflict between the Brotherhood of Darkness and the Army of Light, millions of hectares of old-growth trees had been decimated, turning a huge swath of Ruusan's northern hemisphere into a desolate and arid wasteland.

Alone, the dramatic changes in the geographic features of the world might not have been enough to affect a significant climatic shift. However, the damage to the environment left the world more vulnerable to the terrible devastation of the thought bomb. In the wake of Kaan's ultimate weapon, a powerful Force nexus was created: an invisible maelstrom of dark- and light-side energies capable of permanently altering the planet's weather patterns.

As a result, even in the regions of the planet where the forests still stood, snow-a rarity in generations gone past-became a regular yearly occurrence. The unprecedented winters typically lasted only a few months, but they were particularly brutal on an ecosystem that had evolved in a much warmer clime. Some of the flora and fauna of Ruusan, like the humans who still inhabited the world, had learned to adapt. Other species simply died off."


Her natural affinity would be automatically and naturally amplified by the powers of the Thought Bomb. Try again.


You claimed she cannot tap into the power of other things, yet I proved you wrong by showing she can tap into Ruusan to amplify her speed.


*Everything! http://inky.me/lab/trollface/trollface.png


Well, the Exile is considered by Revan to be a "very powerful" or "powerful" Jedi in the Mandalorian Wars in Revan if I recall correctly. She is naturally powerful. However I http://images.killermovies.com/forums/moresmilies/surrender.gif over Nihilus.


I accept your concession.


http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/mr_chang_senor_chang_laugh_spits_milk.gif
You do not need to tap into a nexus for it to effect you...


It doesn't work like that either. We cannot just assume something like such and then write it off as a feat for a debate. Revan should be able to slaughter a dozen-or-so of the Imperial Guard, but that doesn't mean I can write it off as a feat and use it in my debate. I have to use what is available, and I can't make such assumptions be the basis of one of the main points in a 5 page debate.


http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvga6wARjj1qdku5lo1_250.gif


That doesn't mean she reaches her potential.


On a nexus, yeah.

NOTE: I won't be able to respond until Thursday.

Wait, so what weakened Vitiate and the Dread Masters do in gameplay is canon? Goooooood.

Wookiee considers it canon.
It's never stated to be non-canon.
The game is stated to be canon.
So...yeah?

Then alot more force beasts have just been added to the mythos...

Well of course it is not as high of canon canon as like a cutscene, but unless someone can provide a quote saying otherwise, it is technically canon.

For the most part, most of the things that happen in gameplay aren't that crazy.

Quite frankly, I can't think of that many games with ridiculous powerful bosses in Star Wars that don't deserve to be such.

....Except lightning storms that cover literally the entire arena, bursts of power that one-shot strike teams, Mind powers that lock people inside their own heads, beings able to tank hundreds of lightsaber strikes and force powers, and randomly getting pissed off and becoming 10x as potent, right?

This isn't unusual. People in novels have summoned lightning that devastates an entire landscape.

This also isn't unusual. This has been done in novels many times.

Erm..Zannah? Or Vitiate?

Well this part obviously isn't canon.

When does this happen in games? Normally it just happens in novels.

Obviously there are some parts that are clearly non-canon, but others are fair representations of someones power. Then again, your own actions and such are non-canon obviously. It's quite annoying actually, I wish someone clarified after all these years.

Yeah but what you're implying is that those random game mechanic bosses are, like, above the likes of Dooku and Revan :/

and being able to tank hundreds of lightsaber strikes is just as game mechanic-y as the other things you've referenced.

Enrage timer. If a boss fight goes on for too long, the boss enrages and becomes 10x as powerful.

I imply many things, that doesn't mean it's what I said, or what I believe, merely something I implanted into your mind to make you question yourself.
But to be fair, I consider and acknowledge Force abilities in games, such as lightning storms or telekinetic pushes.
Wookieepedia has a nasty canon policy, and it fits the bill, so I don't see why I shouldn't consider it canonical.
Then again, no one should ever make it the basis of my argument, but no one should also dismiss it completely.

That's why I hate RPG games, I wish there would be a new jedi knight game just imagine it.

Originally posted by PTforthewin
That's why I hate RPG games, I wish there would be a new jedi knight game just imagine it.
Jedi Knight force powers make even less sense. At least things like KotOR acknowledge that you shouldn't be able to use Dark Side powers as strongly as Light Side ones and vice versa.

Lol the events of outcast and academy and dark forces take place over 3 thousands years after KOTOR, plus the jedi where just recovering from the purge at the time, how would they know?

Holy shit, Ant.

You made so many grammatical mistakes. haermm

If you can still read it, it doesn't really matter.
However, where?

"Ultimately, the fight will be decided by Revan's telekinesis and lightning vs Darth Zannah's telekinesis and lightning. To be knowledge, Zannah has never even demonstrated the use of knowledge, so all she has in her arsenal is telekinesis. Her sorcery requires time where, like Vitiate, Revan will savior and be able to effectively TK/Force_in_Balance her.

With such being said, you are being quite bias to claim Zannah can not only overcome Revan's force attacks, but then be able to beat her with her own!"

And thats just the first 2 paragraphs.

Oh. That's pretty funny shit though.
*my
*lightning
No clue how to spell it.
*him

Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't pure speculation that Zannah is just as powerful or more powerful than Bane. Which 100% makes her one of the most powerful Sith ever and waaaaay more powerful than a joke like Malak.


^ This. The whole point of Bane's Rule of Two is that the apprentice surpasses the master.

And this goes on and on and on for a thousand years, where student > master.

Bane trained Zannah with the purpose of her surpassing and killing him. If she wasn't as strong/stronger than him, she didn't deserve to rule after he was gone.

Originally posted by PTforthewin
Lol the events of outcast and academy and dark forces take place over 3 thousands years after KOTOR, plus the jedi where just recovering from the purge at the time, how would they know?
What does this even mean? You aren't even responding to the point I made. It's not like the Force magically changed in the last few thousand years. You can't master both sides of the Force. Without being using anger or rage, Dark Side powers mean nothing. That is why Kyle's teachings make no sense.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ultimately, the fight will be decided by Revan's telekinesis and lightning vs Darth Zannah's telekinesis and lightning. To MY knowledge, Zannah has never even demonstrated the use of LIGHTNING, so all she has in her arsenal is telekinesis. Her sorcery requires time where, like Vitiate, Revan will I DON'T ****ING KNOW WHAT YOU MEANT TO SAY HERE and be able to effectively TK/Force_in_Balance her.

With such being said, you are being quite biasED to claim Zannah can not only overcome Revan's force attacks, but then be able to beat HIM with her own! We know Zannah is not capable of this.

Its true that Zannah has never demonstrated lightning. Because Drew is an idiot he thinks that you can either do sorcery or you can do lightning, despite everyone doing both all the time. But regardless, his TK won't affect her and she can Force Bubble against his lightning. Eventually one of her sorceries will bring him down.

Also sorcery really doesn't take that much time to do. It depends on the spell. Zannah was able to pull it off against Bane twice in one duel.

I highly doubt Revan's Force in Balance will actually do much to her. He knocked over a Vitiate who wasn't prepared for the attack and had most of his strength occupied. Zannah will just through up a Force Shield and tank it. Then, when it knocks Revan over (which it did), she'll sorcery him.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Enough with Zannah Tk'ed a unprepared BANE. For all we know, Zannah could have sat in a corner and charged up for 5 minutes.
"He began to gather the dark side, the power slowly building. But before he could unleash it he was hit by a wall of thunderous force rolling out from a corridor to his left. Instinctively he threw up a defensive shield, absorbing the blow. Despite this, he was slammed against the opposite wall, knocking the breath from his lungs."

And yet you dismiss Revan hitting Vitiate since he wasn't prepared, lmfao, Bane didn't even know Zannah was there! Furthermore, to my knowledge that is her best telekinetic feat. Please inform me otherwise if this is not true, but until then, Revan laughs at her.

Speculation. Also Bane would have noticed her presence if she did that, he was able to sense her in the prison.

It's irrelevant that Bane didn't know that she was there, since he was still able to throw up a force shield. Which wasn't said to be hasty or weakened by his surprise. And as I've pointed out, Bane was gathering his power before she attacked. Its a great Force feat since it broke through the Force defenses of a Force user of Bane's caliber and tossed him. Zannah herself states that she's equal to Bane and her feats prove it.

Revan meanwhile knocked over a Vitiate who was stated to be unprepared for the attack, meaning no force shield, and even if he managed one, he had most of his strength occupied. Zannah's feat is superior.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Consider it a special kind of TK.
Regardless of what it is, and quite frankly I don't give a damn, he can use it against Zannah if she tries to summon any illusions. However, I doubt he would need to anyway, considering he fought off Vitiate's mind domination successfully for 300 years.

I've addressed most of this already And I agree that Revan can likely resist her illusions.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Concede now, because you won't win this part.
The game itself is canon. Correct? Gamemechnics have never been stated to be non-canon. Correct?
Good, I see we agree, because it is apart of a canon game, and not stated to be non-canon, so it falls under the canon category of such said game.

Actually the wookieepedia page on canon states game mechanics are non-canon. They're non-diagetic.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Also, I am tired of your double-standards. Like seriously? The other day you posted a video over how you were impressed of a feat some Dark Councilor did against the Sith Strike team, you said something along the lines of "whatever he does, it's pretty damn impressive" or something like such. Yet now you are telling me they are ineligible for a debate? Ha.

That wasn't me. I said it was too unclear to tell what was happening.

And its a different case because that attack is a scripted event during the fight. Revan using a Force Wave is simply a gameplay attack. The Consular and Inquisitor have a similar attack that throws back enemies. As I said, you might be able to say that its canon that Revan can use Force Wave based on him having it during the fight. But it's not canon that it tosses the team, because that's simply a gameplay function. If we take those things as canon then the Smuggler's grenades can toss around Malgus.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
They are on Dromaund Kaas, which is said by Luke to be incredibly powerful in the Dark Side, and they can use the Sith Emperor's strength to make them have some Force Resistance. So what? It is not as if Revan channeled his full TK, he did a normal push, nothing special. I would rather be annoyed if the Guard did fly backwards.

Luke said that 3000 years in the future. And as I've pointed out before, DK was able to support the imperial occupation with no ill effects to the populace, indicating low nexus strength.

A normal push is what we should be taking as proof of Revan's normal TK abilities, not his charged up power. That he only managed to send a IG a few steps back when he was just drawing on Vitiate indicates that there's no way Revan would affect the Emperor with his TK ever.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Zannah has like one telekinetic feat.
All hail the mighty Zannah, the greatest Tker in the world! http://images.killermovies.com/forums/moresmilies/notworthy.gif

As opposed to the four Revan has?

Zannah has more, its just that most are when she was a child. Disintegration, levitation and a Force bubble are pretty dang sweet though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/wrong10.jpg


"The pale, glowing orb floating in the center of the chamber was nearly four meters tall. It pulsed with raw power; it made the flesh on Bane's neck crawl and the hair on his arms stand on end. Dark veins of shadow swirled on the shimmering metallic surface in slow, hypnotic rhythms. There was something grotesquely compelling about it, something fascinating yet repulsive at the same time."

I have no clue what this is supposed to prove.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Winter was still a new-and not entirely welcome-phenomenon on Ruusan. Originally it had been a temperate world, its climate controlled and moderated by the vast boreal forests that dominated the planet's surface. But during the prolonged conflict between the Brotherhood of Darkness and the Army of Light, millions of hectares of old-growth trees had been decimated, turning a huge swath of Ruusan's northern hemisphere into a desolate and arid wasteland.

Alone, the dramatic changes in the geographic features of the world might not have been enough to affect a significant climatic shift. However, the damage to the environment left the world more vulnerable to the terrible devastation of the thought bomb. In the wake of Kaan's ultimate weapon, a powerful Force nexus was created: an invisible maelstrom of dark- and light-side energies capable of permanently altering the planet's weather patterns.

As a result, even in the regions of the planet where the forests still stood, snow-a rarity in generations gone past-became a regular yearly occurrence. The unprecedented winters typically lasted only a few months, but they were particularly brutal on an ecosystem that had evolved in a much warmer clime. Some of the flora and fauna of Ruusan, like the humans who still inhabited the world, had learned to adapt. Other species simply died off."

10 years after Zannah was there. Theres no proof the thing became a nexus a scant few hours after the Thought Bombs creation and Bane doesn't note any changes in the alignment of the area even when right next to it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Her natural affinity would be automatically and naturally amplified by the powers of the Thought Bomb. Try again.

No, it wouldn't. And the text specifically notes that her attack was was the product solely of her natural affinity bereft of any preparation or training. It also says her attack was the same as her attack on the Jedi, which she did without the aid of a nexus.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You claimed she cannot tap into the power of other things, yet I proved you wrong by showing she can tap into Ruusan to amplify her speed.

Which she wasn't doing.

She was tapping into her own power but with minimal training she got tired very quickly. It didn't say anything about Ruusan. It actually explicitly says she was trying to tap into her own "deep reserves of anger and hate". Try again.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
*Everything! http://inky.me/lab/trollface/trollface.png

Concession accepted, trollface.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I accept your concession.

About Bane using a Force Scream? I guess you.... got me there?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/mr_chang_senor_chang_laugh_spits_milk.gif
You do not need to tap into a nexus for it to effect you...

Except we have multiple examples of a Force user consciously needing to tap into a nexus and countless examples where the effects of a nexus isn't noted at all.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It doesn't work like that either. We cannot just assume something like such and then write it off as a feat for a debate. Revan should be able to slaughter a dozen-or-so of the Imperial Guard, but that doesn't mean I can write it off as a feat and use it in my debate. I have to use what is available, and I can't make such assumptions be the basis of one of the main points in a 5 page debate.

Sorry, but it is how that works. Unlike your example, Zannah did block the Force Storm. When she was a ****ing child. You seriously think she was more capable as a kid than as a Sith Lord? With her infinitely improved mastery of the Force and with her power largely conceptualized, there's absolutely no reason to suggest she couldn't do the feat.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That doesn't mean she reaches her potential.

She does become Banes equal and probably becomes superior afterwards.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
On a nexus, yeah.

Anywhere. Revan had no chance in the fight. He couldn't engage Vitiate in close quarters, he couldn't affect him with his own powers and after the first time Vitiate wasn't letting him deflect his own power back at him. Revan was just counting down to being owned. And that goes on or off a nexus.

". It pulsed with raw power; it made the flesh on Bane's neck crawl and the hair on his arms stand on end. Dark veins of shadow swirled on the shimmering metallic surface in slow, hypnotic rhythms. There was something grotesquely compelling about it, something fascinating yet repulsive at the same time."

Umm, it is basically a confirmed nexus right there.



Lol. The fact it was 10 years later even further proves my point. The effects of the Thought Bomb would be at its strongest instantly after the blast, for that is when the power is unleashed. As time goes on, the energy fades back into its natural balance. The fact after 10 years the world is still screwed up just shows how powerful the nexus was.


That doesn't mean her natural affinity is not being amplified. She would have to of been *actively* fighting off the power of the Though Bomb and its effects for it not to amplify her powers. Yes, tapping into a nexus allows the user to have more power, but the area around them would *still* be amplified regardless. For example, Jedi do not actively draw in energies of a Dark Side nexus but are still effected by them.


I'm not saying she couldn't do the feat. I am saying she can't do the feat in the .026 seconds it would take for a lightning attack to strike her.


*probably*

He couldn't engage close quarters because he couldn't get to Vitiate. There was a 120 foot gap between them. If there was a closer gap, Revan honestly could have won. All Vitiate had really was his lightning storm and TK, and his TK wasn't powerful enough to damage Revan, but merely to just throw him backwards.

Note: I would prefer if you do *not* respond back tonight because I'm not in the mood to dedicate another 2 hours to a singular debate.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan's TK is also scripted. No matter what, he will unleash a Force Blast immediately before he shields a Force Bubble around himself. This occurs at the same time, regardless of level, time, opponents, etc. He will also always use devastating Force Pull immediately before he unleashes a FLS. And he unleashes the TK bursts I am referring to at certain health percentages, for example, when he gets to 81% he unleashes the attack.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/gant-impatient%28a%29.gif

Conceded, I didn't know that.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Luke saying that 3000 years in the future is a testament to its power. Dromaund Kaas has been relatively unused after the fall of Vitiate's Sith Empire, so the fact it was able to remain so powerful shows us how powerful it would have been with thousands of Sith Lords active on the planet. And, I found another quote below. Concede Neph.

"Over a millennium past, the Emperor claimed Dromund Kaas and made the Dark Temple the epicenter of dark Force energy. In the bowels of the temple, he conducted horrifying experiments that drained the knowledge and life essence from all the greatest Sith Lords of the time."

No, it isn't. We have no idea what happened between that time. Perhaps Vitiate was struck down permanently on it and the stolen power from Nathema was unleashed on the planet, corrupting it. Perhaps some ritual is used. Who knows. Regardless, the fact that a civilization thrived on it with no ill effects proves it's not strong.

I already knew about that quote.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Even completely excluding all his SWTOR Foundry feats, he has 10, which is *much* more then the amount Zannah has.
4 Impressive TK Showings, 1 TK Feat From Drew's Email, 2 Force Chokes, 1 Levitation, and 2 Lightsaber throw/grab.

When did he levitate himself? I wasn't counting a few of those because they're so inconsequential. If we count those ones then Zannah's up to a similar number.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
On a Nexus.

Nope.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
When does she do this? Regardless, Revan has done it too.

She falls off a cliff and levitates herself to safety. In some point on Ruusan.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Same as Revan. The only difference is, she has never done it in combat, only once out of instinct and desperation.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/gant-smirking%28b%29.gif

As a child with no force mastery. Serious question: You think characters have more power as children acting on instinct than as Force Masters? That's braindead.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
". It pulsed with raw power; it made the flesh on Bane's neck crawl and the hair on his arms stand on end. Dark veins of shadow swirled on the shimmering metallic surface in slow, hypnotic rhythms. There was something grotesquely compelling about it, something fascinating yet repulsive at the same time."

Umm, it is basically a confirmed nexus right there.

Uh, no it's not. Pulsing with power means nothing. My dick pulses with power. To prove it had created a nexus you'd need to prove that everything around it pulsed with power.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lol. The fact it was 10 years later even further proves my point. The effects of the Thought Bomb would be at its strongest instantly after the blast, for that is when the power is unleashed. As time goes on, the energy fades back into its natural balance. The fact after 10 years the world is still screwed up just shows how powerful the nexus was.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/gant-thinking%28b%29.gif

Except it would take time for it to affect and corrupt the environment. Nexus' don't just instantly spawn, the darkside corrupts places over time. Also the Thought Bomb obviously didn't diminish over time.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That doesn't mean her natural affinity is not being amplified. She would have to of been *actively* fighting off the power of the Though Bomb and its effects for it not to amplify her powers. Yes, tapping into a nexus allows the user to have more power, but the area around them would *still* be amplified regardless. For example, Jedi do not actively draw in energies of a Dark Side nexus but are still effected by them.

If the text specifically notes that she's performing the technique through her natural affinity, then by the mother****ing definition of the word natural, she isn't drawing on the power of the nexus. She drawing on her own natural Force power, not the Force around her.

No she wouldn't have to fight off the effects of the nexus, which you haven't proven exists, simply not draw on it. The area around them didn't have time to be affected by the Thought Bomb and Zannah was too inexperienced to draw on a nexus.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm not saying she couldn't do the feat. I am saying she can't do the feat in the .026 seconds it would take for a lightning attack to strike her.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/gant-glare%28a%29.gif

Zannah can easily dodge lightning.

So even if she didn't Bubble up, which you just said you don't actually disagree with, she can just sidestep the attack.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
*probably*

http://www.court-records.net/animation/gant-smirking%28b%29.gif

Not probably that she becomes his equal though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He couldn't engage close quarters because he couldn't get to Vitiate. There was a 120 foot gap between them. If there was a closer gap, Revan honestly could have won. All Vitiate had really was his lightning storm and TK, and his TK wasn't powerful enough to damage Revan, but merely to just throw him backwards.

http://www.court-records.net/animation/gant-glare%28a%29.gif

That's such utter bullshit. Revan couldn't have beaten Vitiate by himself, that's obvious. As soon as Revan got close Vitiate blasted him back. The exact same thing would have happened whether or not he was 120 feet or 10 feet away. Revan couldn't get to Vitiate because Vitiate is just more powerful than he is. That he didn't crush Revan with TK is just because he wanted to dominate his mind again.

None of those images work for me, do they work for anyone else?
However, merely scrolling through the debate seems like you have lost interest in this particular debate.
Glad I'm not the only one.

I'll respond soon.

Lame. Basically just look at this and pick all the most condescending animations.

The debate is drawing to an end. The only real thing to establish is if Zannah can block Revan's lightning and if her TK is on par with Bane's.

Oops! Google Chrome could not find www.court-records.net

Access a cached copy of www._court-_records._net/_animation/_aa-_gant._htm

Oh, well Google Chrome is shit, so thats the obvious explanation. Also I editted.

Chrome is the best.
What do you use?

Firefox.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120730222649/aceattorney/images/4/46/Normal_1.gif http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120730222645/aceattorney/images/f/ff/Gant_Laughing_1.gif

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120730222648/aceattorney/images/6/6e/Gant_Thinking_1.gif http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120730222646/aceattorney/images/3/34/Gant_Smirking_1.gif

Those gifs worked.
And firefox sux dik.

http://i.minus.com/idhziouN9RDYf.gif

Did that gif work, b*tch?

It did.

>:]

Why is this ****ing thread still here.

Why are you still here?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why are you still here?

Because I can.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh, well Google Chrome is shit, so thats the obvious explanation. Also I editted.

I disagree.

This debate is drawing out, so I color-coded what you do and do not respond to.
THE ACTUAL DEBATE: If Zannah's sorcery is more powerful then Revan's lightning. Neither will ultimately overcome the other with Telekinesis.
NOTE: There is probably a shit ton of grammar/spelling errors in this...I didn't bother proofreading. My Sith Inquistor awaits me.

Relation to Debate: If Darth Zannah's sorcery is effective against Revan.
Outcome: No, it is not.
Revan's attack doesn't need to beat her, as you are implying, for Revan to win or stalemate. But rather what it needs to do is create a more devastating impact then Zannah's failed sorcery attempt, in which it will obviously do. Bane was capable of unleashing TK even under Zannah's spell...Revan can easily do the same to stop Zannah from further pressing the illusion. This is not even worth mentioning that it would exhaust some of her Force energy. It would actually be better for Zannah *not* to unleash sorcery onto Revan.
Relation to Debate: If Darth Zannah's Force barrier is effective against Revan.
Outcome: No, it is not.
It states that her Force barrier will not protect her from lightning, and that she rather has to:
A. Use her lightsaber (she doesn't have in this battle)
B. Dodge it through her speed
The bolded part is pivotal for my argument, and something you *tried* to argue on later in the thread. Though she can avoid some of Revan's lightning, ultimately she cannot avoid continuing storms of FLS attacks. Like you said Revan will eventually fall from Zannah's sorcery...it is rather that Zannah would eventually fall from Revan's lightning. Where Revan's lightning might not be as good as Bane's...it is still capable of killing rancors, which I find much more impressive then humans. In terms of Force Barriers and how they work, you are wrong. Worror used a "Protection bubble" to defend against Bane's lightning, not a Force barrier. Zannah has never displayed even knowledge on this ability before.

Her only other ability is TK.

Relation to Debate: If Darth Zannah's Force barrier is effective against Revan.
Outcome: No, it is not.
Your logic is making no sense here, unless you are implying Darth Bane is highly unintelligent. If Bane knew he was there, he would have been prepared. But rather he was taken completely off-guard, which is stated, and throws up a desperate Force barrier. Zannah, being a master at sorcery, can easily hide her presence in the Force and in physical appearance. She does this in the second Bane novel. If you are suggesting otherwise points to her being weaker then I originally anticipated. The fact Vitiate didn't even put up a Force shield points to evidence Revan's TK attacks are incredibly quick and direct.

Relation to Debate: Nothing anymore.
Outcome: Do not reply.
The quote itself proves the world is a nexus...being a "epicenter of Dark Side energy," yet you continue to disagree? Your becoming worse then LeGenD.

Relation to Debate: Nothing anymore.
Outcome: Do not reply.
Someone doesn't read my Respect thread. He does it in a cutscene. He also does it right before he disappears in TOR.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/3772390-0769677832-0OEXD.gif

Relation to Debate: Nothing anymore.
Outcome: Do not reply.
Children acting on instinct draw on their greatest Force reserves.
Normally, Force Masters never reach their greatest Force reserves, like Skywalker.

Relation to Debate: Nothing anymore.
Outcome: Do not reply.
You right there state that it would have taken time for the energy to settle. The energy would have been unleashed 10 years prior, and currently still in the air currents and in particular: the chamber where the bomb exploded from. The air around them would be effected, and it would be automatically be flowing through Zannah to strengthen her, just as it would weaken Jedi Knights who draw off the light side.

Relation to Debate: Nothing anymore.
Outcome: Do not reply.
Not true. If it was closer, Vitiate would not have as much time to charge up, and the lightning would emit a weaker effect. If it is only like 10 feet away, I seriously doubt he could even have time to summon a FLS that Revan can't just tank while continuing to charge.

EDIT: Do not respond tonight or preferably tomorrow as well.

Kind of gay that you think you can just decide what I can reply to. I happen to think that the TK argument is still relevant.

People are still debating this old shit?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kind of gay that you think you can just decide what I can reply to. I happen to think that the TK argument is still relevant.
Of course I can't decide, nor do I even want to decide. It was a joke to signify that this debate is drawing on. I thought using Christmas colors made that quite obvious.
http://www.lexisnexis.com/Community/copyright-trademarklaw/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Blogs.Components.WeblogFiles/copyrightandtrademarklawblog/Christmas-Wrapping.jpg
Have a happy Christmas and a merry new year?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Relation to Debate: If Darth Zannah's sorcery is effective against Revan.
Outcome: No, it is not.
Revan's attack doesn't need to beat her, as you are implying, for Revan to win or stalemate. But rather what it needs to do is create a more devastating impact then Zannah's failed sorcery attempt, in which it will obviously do. Bane was capable of unleashing TK even under Zannah's spell...Revan can easily do the same to stop Zannah from further pressing the illusion. This is not even worth mentioning that it would exhaust some of her Force energy. It would actually be better for Zannah *not* to unleash sorcery onto Revan.

Um, you're aware that there are other sorcerous techniques than just mental assualts right? Like the Force Blast that Aleema used to turn a dude into a charred skeleton or that King Ommin used. Or Sutta Chwituskak, bolts of hatred and Odojinya, a darkside web that severs the targets force connection, both of which were again demonstrated by Ommin. Zannah has access to a wide array of sorcery to use against Revan, seeing as she possesses the knowledge from Freedon Nadds holocron. And Nadd was said to have mastered every darkside technique, and was in general a consummate sorcerer. Even if her mental assault fails, like with Bane she has other options.

Revan's attack hit himself as well as the Emperor, remember. It isn't going to leave Zannah vulnerable to anything.

Bane wasn't capable of freely using TK against Zannah. so neither would Revan. It was only him repelling the mental attack with a blast of power that did that.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Relation to Debate: If Darth Zannah's Force barrier is effective against Revan.
Outcome: No, it is not.
It states that her Force barrier will not protect her from lightning, and that she rather has to:
A. Use her lightsaber (she doesn't have in this battle)
B. Dodge it through her speed
The bolded part is pivotal for my argument, and something you *tried* to argue on later in the thread. Though she can avoid some of Revan's lightning, ultimately she cannot avoid continuing storms of FLS attacks. Like you said Revan will eventually fall from Zannah's sorcery...it is rather that Zannah would eventually fall from Revan's lightning. Where Revan's lightning might not be as good as Bane's...it is still capable of killing rancors, which I find much more impressive then humans. In terms of Force Barriers and how they work, you are wrong. Worror used a "Protection bubble" to defend against Bane's lightning, not a Force barrier. Zannah has never displayed even knowledge on this ability before.

- Zannah has already demonstrated the ability to block lightning and flame with a Force bubble. Just because she cannot do the same against Bane's extremely devastating usage of lightning does not mean that she couldn't against Revan's more..... pedestrian assault.

- The thread starter did not say that they don't have their lightsabers.

- "Protection Bubble" and Force Bubble are the same thing. Again, Zannah has access to Nadd's holocron, which undoubtedly has knowledge of Force Bubble in it, a technique Zannah already instinctively knows how to use anyway.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Her only other ability is TK.

The darkside is a path to many abilities some would consider.... unnatural.

She has access to sorcery, which has a number of attacks. Eventually I feel one of the techniques would bring him down, coupled with TK if necessary.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Relation to Debate: If Darth Zannah's Force barrier is effective against Revan.
Outcome: No, it is not.
Your logic is making no sense here, unless you are implying Darth Bane is highly unintelligent. If Bane knew he was there, he would have been prepared. But rather he was taken completely off-guard, which is stated, and throws up a desperate Force barrier. Zannah, being a master at sorcery, can easily hide her presence in the Force and in physical appearance. She does this in the second Bane novel. If you are suggesting otherwise points to her being weaker then I originally anticipated. The fact Vitiate didn't even put up a Force shield points to evidence Revan's TK attacks are incredibly quick and direct.

She was evidently not able to completely hide her presence from him. But just as evidently he wasn't able to track her movements. A good deal of time spent charging up her power near Bane would obviously have made her presence known to him though.

Anyway, this is largely irrelevant. Zannah didn't hide and charge up the attack. If she had, she would have had enough time to notice that Bane didn't have his lightsaber, which she was visibly unsure of.

Revan didn't use a TK attack and it obviously wasn't direct moron, he unleashed the raw Force in an explosion between them. And its not that it was fast, just that Vitiates attention was on trying to mindrape him. So in other words its utterly incomparable to Zannah tearing through Bane's amplified Force Barrier.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Relation to Debate: Nothing anymore.
Outcome: Do not reply.
Children acting on instinct draw on their greatest Force reserves.
Normally, Force Masters never reach their greatest Force reserves, like Skywalker.

It's never stated that they're drawing on their "greatest" force reserves, just that they're drawing on their potential. To what degree is unknown. Theres no way that Zannah's greatest force reserves only equate to snapping some necks and blowing up a hand.

I mean, if this were true Zannah could have destroyed Bane instead of her cousins hand, which is absurd.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Relation to Debate: Nothing anymore.
Outcome: Do not reply.
You right there state that it would have taken time for the energy to settle. The energy would have been unleashed 10 years prior, and currently still in the air currents and in particular: the chamber where the bomb exploded from. The air around them would be effected, and it would be automatically be flowing through Zannah to strengthen her, just as it would weaken Jedi Knights who draw off the light side.

I said that it would take time for the energy to corrupt the Force in the area around the bomb. Not nearly enough time had occurred for that to have happened.

Interesting we got 7 pages on this.
Even more interesting that the debate is actually winding downwards.
I'll reply soon/eventually.

Just wanted to point this out...wut? Look at the title...(Force abilities only).
Then the thread starter states "So could Revan beat Zannah in a force fight?"
No sabers bro, just Force.

Just because they can only attack with the Force doesn't mean they can't use lightsabers in their defense. Blocking lightning with a lightsaber is a force power.

I'll ask the thread starter later...I chat with with him daily on another forum.

On the topic of Zannah's illusions, Bane knows a technique for dispelling illusions.

Edit: Nope sorry, I've just been informed that apparently this is a private debate, I'll butt out.

...And?

Does Revan? http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-smuggo.gif

Lasting 300 years against Vitiate's mind domination is a testament enough.
However, I feel he was...misleading, and rather annoying.
You don't need a defense against illusions like he is implying.
Example #1: Cade Skywalker in Legacy comics.
Example #2: Nomi Sunrider in Tales of the Jedi comics.
Example #3: Yoda in Season 6 of the Clone Wars.
None of these characters have confirmed defenses...and to my knowledge, Bane's is a Force Scream.
A powerful will, and Revan's will is ****ing immense, will be able to cancel out the illusions. That is only logical.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
and to my knowledge, Bane's is a Force Scream.
Bane learned it from Nadd's holocron to stop the Kaan and Qordis ghosts from trolling him. Both times he used it it manifested itself as a burst of light.

The thing about Vit's mind assault is a very good argument tho

Oh. The impressiveness of that just then decreased ten-fold.
And it is similar to Revan's Force in Balance, based on your description.http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/3177439056.gif

Of what?

I'm not following.

"Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in it's purest form. There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan's mind, was sent flying backward."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

It is rather similar...just that Revan's attack is much more powerful.

Thats totally not the same thing.

"Feeling an incredible surge of power beyond any he had known before, he released it in a burst of energy."
You are right...it is basically TK.

I have no idea what you're trying to prove here. Bane's defense against illusions has nothing to do with Revan's Balance attack. Just because they both create a bright light means nothing.

Nor do I have any clue what you are trying to prove with Bane's defense against illusions, since Revan can defend against them too, and probably in a better method then spamming some light.

Defending against telepathy isn't the same thing as defending against illusions.

Bane defended against those illusions with immense willpower paired with a technique.

They both demonstrate he is highly skilled at mental defense.
Hell, Bane shouldn't have even needed a technique. Cade didn't.

Cade Skywalker > Darth Bane

Ehhh probably not.

Though Bane would have difficulty beating him.

She has never used any other options in a fight, besides tendrils, however according to Drew: "The Force permeats all things, and while much of the power is concentrated in the lake, it seeps through everything. Zannah basically was drawing on the power trapped there for thousands of years." To say she can do any more is making up powers in your little hypothetical world. Submit to Revan's superiority or suffer the wrath of the Force in balance. http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/3177439056.gif

http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/651588504.gif Lol wut? The attack didn't "hit" him. It was *so* powerful that it made him stagger backwards.

By "blast of power", you mean telekensis, right? He doesn't have this rare, unique power that he uses against illusions.
In their final fight, he was saved by the illusions via a mere Force Scream. Rather pathetic for Zannah, to be honest.

http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/1208107325.gif I never seen such awful logic! Well I have, but not from you. Well I have actually tbh, but still.
She put up a bubble instinctively while she was a sleeping at night. Realistically, it could have taken her ample time for the bubble to form. The fact she never did it against Bane confirms she cannot due it instantly. And it is rather silly you think she can put on and off Force bubbles in .02 seconds every second or two.


Flaw in argument:
With the assumption that Bane did not know, even more speculative cons appear for the duo:
1. Darth Bane has awful precognition and Force sense.
-or-
2. Darth Bane's Force abilities were still heavily weakened by the drugs.

However regardless, please note: Bane threw up his barrier in a last-second effort. It would be no where has power as a barrier that he had seen the Force attack from start to finish. It is only logical that, a telekinetic amped attack by Zannah would hurl a nearly completely unprepared Bane backwards.

Not really. He could be hiding it in his robes, like Jinn did on Tatooine in Episode 1.

Explosion between them? What?
The energy was directed towards Vitiate.
Revan was perfectly fine besides a little staggering.

The entire fight happened in a few seconds. It was incredibly fast.

Drawing on Force reserve=/=gathering entire Force reserve.

Nearly 1/4+ of a novel happened in that time.

It would take time for the energy to corrupt the Force after the Thought Bomb? I just laughed irl.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It would take time for the energy to corrupt the Force after the Thought Bomb? I just laughed irl.