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This is new right ? I didn't see any.

TCW Maul vs. RotJ Vader

All out.

Vader, my friend.

Maul in a very close fight. Why ? You know why.

Yeah, yeah...

Vader is slow robot man.

XD

Originally posted by Marco1907
Maul in a very close fight. Why ? You know why.
Who is tougher, Maul or Revan?

Originally posted by Trocity

Vader is slow robot man.

Vader wins.

Vader.

Vader wins.

Vader, and let me tell you, it ain't close.

Vader by a long shot.

Guys c'mon Maul kicks Vader's ass again, we all know this.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWarsTales09-039_zps9e99c40f.jpg

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Who is tougher, Maul or Revan?

Wtf are you talking about ? Stop spamming my posts.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Vader, and let me tell you, it ain't close.

Are you finished your essay about ; Maul's fighting style = Obi-Wan's fighting style.

I really love your ABC logic analyses.

How did that comic end? Oh yeah.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/59115/2650903-vadermauls.jpg

With Maul dead on the floor.

And considering that isn't Maul, and especially isn't TCW Maul, what's your point again, Marco?

Very nice.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And considering that isn't Maul, and especially isn't TCW Maul, what's your point again, Marco?

Are you still continuing with ''Vader is faster than Maul'' thing ?

Perhaps my lack of context is making the sarcasm sail over my head. Darth Vader is significantly more powerful in RotJ than he was when he fought the Maul doppelganger.

Let me note: That comic was made after ep 1 but before 2 and 3.

We- including the author- didn't really know how uber Vader was supposed to be yet. We didn't see all his master-killing in the Jedi purge, and we didn't know much about Maul's standing in respect to other sith yet. A lot of people assumed Qui-Gon was really powerful too, which didn't really hold up.

Originally posted by Q99
Let me note: That comic was made after ep 1 but before 2 and 3.

We- including the author- didn't really know how uber Vader was supposed to be yet. We didn't see all his master-killing in the Jedi purge, and we didn't know much about Maul's standing in respect to other sith yet. A lot of people assumed Qui-Gon was really powerful too, which didn't really hold up.

Can you tell me that who is the best foe Vader ever defeated in purge era ? Vader had trouble with Old Ben Kenobi and ESB Luke... I hope Rebels will not pump Vader like some stupid EU writers did before in old canon, because Filoni and his crew are very consistent in this matters, they will certainly make Vader consistent with his movie performances.

Though Vader still had troubles with unknown jedi masters in purge era as well, that is why he was inconsistent.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Can you tell me that who is the best foe Vader ever defeated in purge era ?

Dude, in your own OP you specified that this was RotJ Vader. This comes after his monstrous TUF feats, and it's made clear that he is more powerful than he has ever been - he crushes Maul with mild difficulty.



How do you know how weak or powerful Kenobi or Luke are at this point?

Originally posted by Skybreaker
Dude, in your own OP you specified that this was RotJ Vader. This comes after his monstrous TUF feats, and it's made clear that he is more powerful than he has ever been - he crushes Maul with mild difficulty.



How do you know how weak or powerful Kenobi or Luke are at this point?

Vader didn't even defeated someone at Maul level before. He is just lacks too much speed to contend with prime Maul.

I am still waiting the answer ; who is the most powerful foe Vader ever defeated ?

Originally posted by Marco1907
Vader didn't even defeated someone at Maul level before.

Maul didn't even defeated someone at Vader level before.



You assume that this will reduce to a lightsaber duel. Vader will crush him through the Force. Think TUF Vader; now realize he has grown more powerful by RotJ.



Palpatine.

But really, who is the most powerful foe Maul has ever defeated? Because I saw his battle with Sidious, and it hardly looks like he is "80%" of a more powerful Emperor, you know, like Vader is.

Originally posted by Q99
Let me note: That comic was made after ep 1 but before 2 and 3.

We- including the author- didn't really know how uber Vader was supposed to be yet. We didn't see all his master-killing in the Jedi purge, and we didn't know much about Maul's standing in respect to other sith yet. A lot of people assumed Qui-Gon was really powerful too, which didn't really hold up.


Honestly there's a good reason Disney has declared all of the previous EU (minus TCW) non- canon.

It's because of things like this, there wasn't enough collaboration with the writers of the eu, and the creators of the movies (or should I say creator).

But now there is.

That being said I'm going to pretty much avoid "Machine Vader" Versus battles until he gets some New Official Canon feats. Which he will within the next year.



Originally posted by Marco1907
I hope Rebels will not pump Vader like some stupid EU writers did before in old canon, because Filoni and his crew are very consistent in this matters, they will certainly make Vader consistent with his movie performances.



He will get new feats. In Rebels and with the Sith Lord novel out next year.

Filoni so far has just talked about Vader being really powerful. He seems to respect the character. But don't worry Marco, at some point Maul will return in Rebels too, and he will also get new feats

Originally posted by Marco1907
Vader didn't even defeated someone at Maul level before. He is just lacks too much speed to contend with prime Maul.

I am still waiting the answer ; who is the most powerful foe Vader ever defeated ?

He rather casually ragdolls Galen Marek on Corellia who at this point should be solidly above Shaak Ti. So yes he's demolished Maul level people before.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Filoni so far has just talked about Vader being really powerful. He seems to respect the character. But don't worry Marco, at some point Maul will return in Rebels too, and he will also get new feats

Lol he'll get slain by Vader.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Guys c'mon Maul kicks Vader's ass again, we all know this.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWarsTales09-039_zps9e99c40f.jpg

Is this even canon anymore? I mean, I really doubt Maul would ever want to be Sidious' apprentice again. Plus didn't they resurrect him from him death in TPM? Which never happened now.

Originally posted by Marco1907
I am still waiting the answer ; who is the most powerful foe Vader ever defeated ?

Sheev.

What ? Sheev stomped Vader, while Maul gave a good fight to him.

8XN3p5nubFE

2iPgsvbMzdE

Slow robot man loses this, c'mon.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He rather casually ragdolls Galen Marek on Corellia who at this point should be solidly above Shaak Ti. So yes he's demolished Maul level people before.



Starkiller mocked with Vader in a proper duel, he ambushed him there. So... Vader still doesn't have any feat to suggest he can take Maul, get troubled with Old Ben Kenobi, and lost to RotJ Luke etc.

Sidious had Maul and Savage at his mercy with telekinesis from the outset, and still entertained a lightsaber duel. In Marco's video, he resorts to his most potent attack from the outset. You can't possibly take this as evidence in Maul's favor.

Originally posted by Marco1907
What ? Sheev stomped Vader, while Maul gave a good fight to him.

8XN3p5nubFE

2iPgsvbMzdE

Slow robot man loses this, c'mon.

You're so desperate you turn toward non-canon sources to support your "argument". Lulz

Darth Vader pretty easily, Maul lost to Obi-Wan in Episode 1

Vader wins in a good fight, and I don't think he'll trash Maul with the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


He will get new feats. In Rebels and with the Sith Lord novel out next year.

Filoni so far has just talked about Vader being really powerful. He seems to respect the character. But don't worry Marco, at some point Maul will return in Rebels too, and he will also get new feats

No I mean of course he will be portrayed as powerful. But just like in Dooku's case (he had a weakness to kinetic & physical attacks) Vader needs to be shown as slower than peak force sensitive beings. Skilled, very high TK, durable, strong but he needs to be slower than likes of Maul, Dooku etc.

Originally posted by DarthChickenMan
Darth Vader pretty easily, Maul lost to Obi-Wan in Episode 1

I can't hear your troll wank... What did you said ? Vader beat Obi-Wan ? I don't remember that though, here Maul trashes Obi-Wan ;

p1fSg_mCId8

Originally posted by Nephthys
Is this even canon anymore? I mean, I really doubt Maul would ever want to be Sidious' apprentice again. Plus didn't they resurrect him from him death in TPM? Which never happened now.

None of Legends is canon anymore.

And it's because of s*** like that!

Originally posted by Marco1907
I can't hear your troll wank... What did you said ? Vader beat Obi-Wan ? I don't remember that though, here Maul trashes Obi-Wan ;

p1fSg_mCId8

Yes, and that's because he used Dun Moch to unbalance him, which you ignored in your attempts to pass misinformation as facts. In other instances they only fought as equals. Try again.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Is this even canon anymore? I mean, I really doubt Maul would ever want to be Sidious' apprentice again. Plus didn't they resurrect him from him death in TPM? Which never happened now.

Vader is featless in new canon now, except Movies. So that is belong to Legends, just like all feats of Vader before.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Yes, and that's because he used Dun Moch to unbalance him, which you ignored in your attempts to pass misinformation as facts. In other instances they only fought as equals. Try again.

Maul ragdolls ;

kC9JbW7sc4Y

Originally posted by Marco1907
I can't hear your troll wank... What did you said ? Vader beat Obi-Wan ? I don't remember that though, here Maul trashes Obi-Wan ;

p1fSg_mCId8

watch?v=aE_CVWMWK74

You were saying?

Obi-Wan got pissed off in that fight, Maul was goading him, and Obi-Wan fell for the bait.

That was PIS,

Maul & Savage already stomped Obi-Wan before.

C1oWW6cJn8s

Originally posted by Marco1907
Maul ragdolls ;

kC9JbW7sc4Y

Not relevant to a pure saber duel. Try again.

Originally posted by Marco1907
That was PIS,

Maul & Savage already stomped Obi-Wan before.

C1oWW6cJn8s

1. He was off-guard, Savage literally surprised him. 2. He had zero time to guard. 3. They had him cornered on both sides. 4. He had one lightsaber.

So ? If Obi-Wan is capable of fighting with Maul & Savage at the same time why did he failed to save Adi Gallia ? And why did he escaped ?

HPUHMpCqRmg

Maul just underestimated Obi-Wan there (because they were already stomped him before 2 v 1) , even though, Obi-Wan was still incapable of hurting Maul, Maul just ragdolled him with force blast.

l74FlbZnS3k

Vader wins this handily.

Vader solidly.

It's a sad day when an entire forum falls to wank and fanboyism. I mean just because Vader has better feats, or Vader killed Maul, or even that Maul's writer says that Vader is more powerful, that doesn't mean Vader is superior.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's a sad day when an entire forum falls to wank and fanboyism. I mean just because Vader has better feats, or Vader killed Maul, or even that Maul's writer says that Vader is more powerful, that doesn't mean Vader is superior.

Are you complainining about Vader or Maul fanwank? Just asking. I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's a sad day when an entire forum falls to wank and fanboyism. I mean just because Vader has better feats, or Vader killed Maul, or even that Maul's writer says that Vader is more powerful, that doesn't mean Vader is superior.




But seriously, literally EVERYONE except Marco says Vader wins. Either we're all morons or... well...

We're all morons, that's a given.

Vader wins through use of the force, though Maul can defeat him if it's purely Sabers.

Why are Maul threads full of cancer on this site?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It's a sad day when an entire forum falls to wank and fanboyism. I mean just because Vader has better feats, or Vader killed Maul, or even that Maul's writer says that Vader is more powerful, that doesn't mean Vader is superior.

This made my day

Only Sabers might be a good fight.

Force and All Out go to Vader, without a doubt.

Add in Opress to Maul's side and it might be a fair fight.


Originally posted by DarthChickenMan
watch?v=aE_CVWMWK74

You were saying?




That was an awesome performance by Obi-Wan, but he never actually defeated Maul.

He battered Opress, but Maul showed earlier in the same episode that he was well above Opress himself.

Also Opress is a much more dangerous opponent out in the open, where he can use his Beastly Force Waves.

Just saying.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Only Sabers might be a good fight.

Force and All Out go to Vader, without a doubt.

Add in Opress to Maul's side and it might be a fair fight.
How is Maul vs Vader not a fair fight by itself? Adding in Opress would mean Vader loses for absolute certain.

Jesus, either Maul is highly underrated on this site as a result of Marco's wanking, or people think Vader is some type of demigod.

Originally posted by ILS
How is Maul vs Vader not a fair fight by itself?


Because of Vader's Crazy ass TK.


Wait, I said I wasn't going to comment on any Machine Vader fights until we got some New Canon feats, so I take it back for now.

But just bare in mind, Vader is 80% as Powerful as Sidious according to Lucas himself. And that the writer of SOD said Maul is not as powerful as Dooku or Vader.

And I've not completely wanked Vader, as I say Maul can take Sabers, although even that isn't a certainty Imho.

But many people here would not even give Maul that much.

Originally posted by ILS
Why are Maul threads full of cancer on this site?

The irony is, Marco's attempts to raise Maul on this site has had exactly the opposite effect.

If he had just gone and done a well written respect thread I am sure a lot of people would begin to see things his way.

However, he instead blindly wanks Maul and shows blatant fanboyism. This predictably results in other users retaliating with low-balling arguments and has precisely the opposite effect on this forum, respect for Maul is decreased, not increased.

We shall see if he learns from his mistake.

Originally posted by ILS
Jesus, either Maul is highly underrated on this site as a result of Marco's wanking, or people think Vader is some type of demigod.

My sentiments exactly.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Because of Vader's Crazy ass TK.


Wait, I said I wasn't going to comment on any Machine Vader fights until we got some New Canon feats, so I take it back for now.

But just bare in mind, Vader is 80% as Powerful as Sidious according to Lucas himself. And that the writer of SOD said Maul is not as powerful as Dooku or Vader.

And I've not completely wanked Vader, as I say Maul can take Sabers, although even that isn't a certainty Imho.

But many people here would not even give Maul that much.
So please explain to me how Vader is going to crush Maul, and possibly even beat Maul and Savage, by virtue of telekinesis? Because unless he can provide more damage than, say, a 100 foot fall, he isn't going to be finishing anything with his Force power alone.

Vader being 80% as powerful as Sidious is an example of a completely unreliable statement, and IIRC it was in regards to "potential" rather than power. Either way, Vader has never been close to being powerful enough to easily ragdoll characters like Maul or Dooku, meaning he can't be 80% as powerful as someone who can.

We already knew Vader and Dooku were more powerful than Maul, so Barlow's statement doesn't really add much. However, assuming that that statement somehow adds to this notion of Vader stomping Maul is just ridiculous. Being more powerful than someone =/= stomping them.

Sabers isn't really a certainty. Their skill feats are quite even. But too many people on this site are riddled with bias, pre-conceived notions and a lack of knowledge on certain characters to come to real conclusions on things like this.



I created a couple of respect threads for Maul (and Savage actually) on CV and it certainly helped with how people viewed him. Maybe if KMC'ers had a look at them they'd stop blindly deciding anyone with TK worth their salt can stomp Maul.

He's never been a likeable character, but it gets pretty inane when people lowball him for the sake of pleasing themselves.

Originally posted by ILS
So please explain to me how Vader is going to crush Maul, and possibly even beat Maul and Savage, by virtue of telekinesis? Because unless he can provide more damage than, say, a 100 foot fall, he isn't going to be finishing anything with his Force power alone.


I didn't say he's just going to outright Crush him with Tk.

But all he has to do is defend himself in Sabers, and get in a TK attack whenever he can. After a few Tk attacks he would start to wear Maul down.

I admit saying Maul+Opress would be more of a fair fight was probably overdoing it. He'd have too difficult a time defending against both of them, and Tk'ing 1 at a time would take ages. Plus they may be able to combine their Force powers on him.

Originally posted by ILS
Vader being 80% as powerful as Sidious is an example of a completely unreliable statement, and IIRC it was in regards to "potential" rather than power. Either way, Vader has never been close to being powerful enough to easily ragdoll characters like Maul or Dooku, meaning he can't be 80% as powerful as someone who can.


Dude that was Lucas's own assessment of Vader's power level.


Originally posted by ILS
We already knew Vader and Dooku were more powerful than Maul, so Barlow's statement doesn't really add much. However, assuming that that statement somehow adds to this notion of Vader stomping Maul is just ridiculous. Being more powerful than someone =/= stomping them.

So you admit Vader is more powerful, so I don't see the issue here. I've said Saber fight would be a good one. But Vader's Tk is simply greater.

I don't see what's to argue here. Read any of my posts in other threads, I'm a big supporter of Maul. But within reason.


Originally posted by ILS



I created a couple of respect threads for Maul (and Savage actually) on CV and it certainly helped with how people viewed him. Maybe if KMC'ers had a look at them they'd stop blindly deciding anyone with TK worth their salt can stomp Maul.

He's never been a likeable character, but it gets pretty inane when people lowball him for the sake of pleasing themselves.


I don't think anyone's lowballing Maul's TK here. It's just that people on these boards tend to have a very high opinion on Vader's TK. Like being on par with Sidious or Yoda's Tk.

But like I said I'm going to avoid those kind of levels until we get new canon feats from Vader.

Post your links bro. Or better yet, add them to your Avatar like Marco has done. That's why everyone sees his.

I doubt Vader's TK would really ware Maul down. Maul has gone through far worse injuries and rejuvenated himself with Dark Rage back to his usual physical levels or beyond, most notably during his Sith Lord trial. If Vader was to win it'd be through sabers, or by catching Maul off guard.

I think we agree, I just found it weird that you don't think Maul vs Vader is a fair fight by itself, or that you thought it "might" be a fair fight with Maul and Savage taking Vader on. It implied to me that you think Vader would mop the floor with Maul and could probably beat the duo without too much trouble, which is far from the case. Semantics, I guess.

Here's a link to all of my respect threads, if you want to read them:
http://www.comicvine.com/profile/i_like_swords/blog/my-respect-threads/97103/

Originally posted by ILS
I doubt Vader's TK would really ware Maul down. Maul has gone through far worse injuries and rejuvenated himself with Dark Rage back to his usual physical levels or beyond, most notably during his Sith Lord trial. If Vader was to win it'd be through sabers, or by catching Maul off guard.

I think we agree, I just found it weird that you don't think Maul vs Vader is a fair fight by itself, or that you thought it "might" be a fair fight with Maul and Savage taking Vader on. It implied to me that you think Vader would mop the floor with Maul and could probably beat the duo without too much trouble, which is far from the case. Semantics, I guess.

Here's a link to all of my respect threads, if you want to read them:
http://www.comicvine.com/profile/i_like_swords/blog/my-respect-threads/97103/


I think I put the difference in their Tk larger than you do down to the 80% quite, and would say based on that and the fact that we know Vader is more powerful, that Vader wins solidly. Obviously there's no where near enough evidence (in the new canon at least) to say he stomps or mops the floor with him.

Cool, I'll have a read.

Edit- A quick look, and I already like the way you've clearly differentiated between Main Canon and Legends. Too many people here, (and at Comic Vine from what I've seen) just completely ignore that distinction.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think I put the difference in their Tk larger than you do down to the 80% quite, and would say based on that and the fact that we know Vader is more powerful, that Vader wins solidly. Obviously there's no where near enough evidence (in the new canon at least) to say he stomps or mops the floor with him.

Cool, I'll have a read.

Edit- A quick look, and I already like the way you've clearly differentiated between Main Canon and Legends. Too many people here, (and at Comic Vine from what I've seen) just completely ignore that distinction.
Eh, I just find that quote hard to believe. Sidious has exercised a hell of a lot better Force Speed than Vader, or anyone in Vader's combative tier, i.e Anakin, Maul, Dooku, and he's ragdolled characters like Maul and Dooku easily. These just aren't really feats Vader has any claim to being able to replicate. The 80% just doesn't hold up for me.

I think the way Canon goes is, Legends Canon includes New Canon, but New Canon doesn't include Legends. So if something happens in TCW that is BS you can safely differentiate it from Legends. But you can use certain aspects of TCW in Legends, i.e Maul dueling evenly with Kenobi, because that's a pretty reliable encounter.

Originally posted by ILS
Eh, I just find that quote hard to believe. Sidious has exercised a hell of a lot better Force Speed than Vader, or anyone in Vader's combative tier, i.e Anakin, Maul, Dooku, and he's ragdolled characters like Maul and Dooku easily. These just aren't really feats Vader has any claim to being able to replicate. The 80% just doesn't hold up for me.

I don't think you have to be Massively more powerful to force choke someone. After all a Rage Enhanced Opress Force Choked Dooku. Yes he caught him off guard, but Sidious possibly caught Dooku off guard too.


Originally posted by ILS
I think the way Canon goes is, Legends Canon includes New Canon, but New Canon doesn't include Legends. So if something happens in TCW that is BS you can safely differentiate it from Legends. But you can use certain aspects of TCW in Legends, i.e Maul dueling evenly with Kenobi, because that's a pretty reliable encounter.


No, Legends doesn't include New Canon. It's going to be too different. Rebels is going to give a completely different take to the start of the Rebellion to TFU. And Episode 7 is going to ignore/contradict all Post ROTJ Legends EU.

Legends includes the Movies(1-6), and TCW, but anything new now is not a part of Legends.

Vader fanboys read this please ;



Lucas says, Vader is at Maul & Dooku tier, not at Sidious tier (like Plagueis, Yoda, Windu etc.)

Jeeses, even ''Clone'' of Maul kicked Vader's ass, is that so hard to understand that they are at the same level ???

You heard it here first, Vader fanboys.

Star Wars Comic Magazine 02 (2014)

http://imageshack.com/a/img908/553/jrIkwi.jpg



''It's a close call, and these two Sith are well-matched in terms of fighting skills.''

Nuff said.

Ah and there are hard-core Maul haters on this site, that is nothing to do with my fanboy wank. Really

FreshestSlice & Lord Stark for example, they don't know anything about Maul, they are just ignorance about it, and they are just wanking Obi-Wan surprise / cheap shotting Maul at Episode I, and they are lowballing Maul just because of that. Pathetic to say, really.

Lord Stark even thinks that Obi-Wan's and Maul's fighting styles are the same, and that is why he thinks Dooku can beat Maul just like he is beating Obi-Wan all the time. Lol @ ABC logic.

Originally posted by Conservative T
If you use the source to prove as much, you'll have to agree that Vader wins. Otherwise, you're sitting on a pretty big and bad double-standard.

Tell this to Vader wankers, I never said Maul stomps Vader, I just said Maul can win. But some people here says Vader stomps Maul, tell me now which is absurd ?

And why the **** I have to agree Vader wins ? It says close fight right ? I say Maul wins, and you can say Vader wins. But no one is stomping.

This is for FreshestSlice

Originally posted by Marco1907
Star Wars Comic Magazine 02 (2014)

http://imageshack.com/a/img908/553/jrIkwi.jpg



''It's a close call, and these two Sith are well-matched in terms of fighting skills.''

Nuff said.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Star Wars Comic Magazine 02 (2014)

http://imageshack.com/a/img908/553/jrIkwi.jpg



''It's a close call, and these two Sith are well-matched in terms of fighting skills.''

Nuff said.

You know what I find interesting about that? Vader is called acrobatic, and his so-called slowness is not listed as a weakness.

Slow robot man indeed.

Also the fact that Vader and Maul have similar fighting skill isn't really questionable. It's the fact that Vader outclasses in Force feats that give him a major edge.

Except telekinesis doesn't really mean much to someone who tanks 100 foot falls without any damage...

You do realise TK isn't the only ability Vader has yes?

What are Vader's other combative Force powers?

Originally posted by Aurbere
You know what I find interesting about that? Vader is called acrobatic, and his so-called slowness is not listed as a weakness.

Slow robot man indeed.

Weaknesses : Heavy outfit and breathing apparatus could make it difficult for him to launch a surprise attack.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice


Also the fact that Vader and Maul have similar fighting skill isn't really questionable. It's the fact that Vader outclasses in Force feats that give him a major edge.

And Maul outclassses him in Speed. And TK difference is not too much, Vader can't ragdoll Maul like Sidious did. There is a %20 gap between Vader and Sidious.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Weaknesses : Heavy outfit and breathing apparatus could make it difficult for him to launch a surprise attack.

So the page is contradicting itself, huh? One cannot be acrobatic, yet slow. Clearly that line does not mean what you think it does.

"Weakness: Has been seen begging for mercy - suggesting he is not as tough as he seems."

Originally posted by ILS
What are Vader's other combative Force powers?

Telepathy, Immovability (that's more for defence, however), Alter Environment, Force Stasis (possibly), Force Barrier, Tutaminis/Force Deflection (which he can use to block lightsaber blades), Force Scream (involuntary, but still relevant to combat scenarios) and Beast Control.

Originally posted by ares834
"Weakness: Has been seen begging for mercy - suggesting he is not as tough as he seems."



Yeah when the time he lost to Sidious he did that...

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Telepathy, Immovability (that's for defense, however), Alter Environment, Force Stasis (possibly), Force Barrier, Tutaminis/Force Deflection (which he can use to block lightsaber blades), Force Scream (involuntary, but still relevant to combat scenarios) and Beast Control.

Tutaminis is really stupid for Vader's power set, he is incapable of shooting force lightning and he is vulnerable to it. One shouldn't able to make tutaminis with mechanical arms.

Nevertheless, his tutaminis is useless in duels, since Maul is not going to attack him with blaster. And Vader never deflected a lightsaber blade, or at least I don't remember that.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Telepathy, Immovability (that's for defense, however), Alter Environment, Force Stasis (possibly), Force Barrier, Tutaminis/Force Deflection (which he can use to block lightsaber blades), Force Scream (involuntary, but still relevant to combat scenarios) and Beast Control.
Telepathy which he never uses combatively. Especially not on any telepath on Maul's level.

Immovability which would hold little relevance in a fight.

Alter environment.. really?

Vader isn't putting Maul in stasis, lol, that's ludicrous. He hasn't done that to anyone as powerful as Maul.

Barrier which is useless.

He's never used tutaminis on a lightsaber blade, and I doubt this would have much relevance anyway.

Force Scream has never come into play in a duel for Vader - ever.

Beast... control... so relevant.

So really, how is any of that relevant to a dueling scenario, in the grand scheme of things?

I thought he just had deflection, not Tutaminis. Also he has that amulet in his gauntlet or something.

He did overload a lightsaber with the Force at one point though, which was badass.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Weaknesses : Heavy outfit and breathing apparatus could make it difficult for him to launch a surprise attack.



That sounds to me like it's difficult for him to surprise attack opponents because he's too noisy with the heavy equipment and breathing. It's kind of a give away that Vader is in the room.


Originally posted by ares834
"Weakness: Has been seen begging for mercy - suggesting he is not as tough as he seems."




Shut up Ares!

Originally posted by Marco1907
Yeah when the time he lost to Sidious he did that...

I know. Horrible.

Vader's very durable armor is much useful here, that is why he managed to beat clone of Maul in the first place. (And also Maul toyed with him just like he did with Obi-Wan in Episode 1 but nevermind that) He can tank one or two clean lightsaber cut.

Originally posted by ILS
Telepathy which he never uses combatively. Especially not on any telepath on Maul's level.

Immovability which would hold little relevance in a fight.

Alter environment.. really?

Vader isn't putting Maul in stasis, lol, that's ludicrous. He hasn't done that to anyone as powerful as Maul.

Barrier which is useless.

He's never used tutaminis on a lightsaber blade, and I doubt this would have much relevance anyway.

Force Scream has never come into play in a duel for Vader - ever.

Beast... control... so relevant.

So really, how is any of that relevant to a dueling scenario, in the grand scheme of things?

I was just listing his other powers, not saying that he'd win against Maul by using them, and yes, he did use Tutaminis or Force Deflection against a lightsaber blade in Dark Lord. Force Scream can be used by Vader in combat if he's enraged, and he shook the foundations of a building with it, but yes, in many cases it wouldn't be relevant to a duel.

He didn't do anything of the sort in Dark Lord. All that was said was that the lightsaber might have gotten past his guard, but in that scenario all it did was glance off the back of his hand, leaving a superficial mark and smoke on his glove.

Originally posted by ILS
Except telekinesis doesn't really mean much to someone who tanks 100 foot falls without any damage...

It does if Vader pins him to a wall or pulls him onto his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It does if Vader pins him to a wall or pulls him onto his lightsaber.
Care to show me Vader doing this to someone as powerful as Maul?

Probably not. But I'm sure I and others could show you plenty of TK feats suggesting he's above Maul by a large enough margin to do it anyway.

Except there is no example of any Force User pinning another Force User to a wall with a power disparity as limited as the one between Maul and Vader. So really it'd be wishful thinking at best.

Originally posted by ILS
He didn't do anything of the sort in Dark Lord. All that was said was that the lightsaber might have gotten past his guard, but in that scenario all it did was glance off the back of his hand, leaving a superficial mark and smoke on his glove.

So what? He still deflected/absorbed it:

The blade might have gotten past Vader's guard, but instead it glanced off the black of his upraised left hand, smoke curling from the black glove.

-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader

I don't see how the smoke appearing on his glove changes this, and I don't see anything in the quote suggesting that he wasn't successful in doing so, seeing how he wasn't damaged by the lightsaber blow.

He didn't absorb anything, or do anything with the Force. The lightsaber scraped his glove.

So Vader "solidly" defeats Maul because people wishfully assume that he can just pin him to a wall or slam Maul into his lightsaber, and because Vader's glove is good at receiving lightsaber blows?

Awesome stuff KMC.

Originally posted by ILS
Except there is no example of any Force User pinning another Force User to a wall with a power disparity as limited as the one between Maul and Vader. So really it'd be wishful thinking at best.

Dooku and Ventress?

Larger force disparity, I'd say.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku and Ventress?
Not really. The disparity between Vader and Maul is much more limited than the one between Ventress and Dooku.

Originally posted by ILS
He didn't absorb anything, or do anything with the Force. The lightsaber scraped his glove.

So Vader "solidly" defeats Maul because people wishfully assume that he can just pin him to a wall or slam Maul into his lightsaber, and because Vader's glove is good at receiving lightsaber blows?

Awesome stuff KMC.

So Vader's glove was simply durable enough to tank the blow? That is nonsense. His hand would still have been severed if he hadn't used the Force, and nothing in the quote says that his glove was scraped. It was a half-successful deflection at worst,but this doesn't change that he used the Force to deflect the blow. Not only that, but I never argued that Vader would win "solidly" (which I guess it means winning with ease), nor that he could dominate Maul with the Force, though a case could be probably made for that. I said that he wins in a good fight.

How powerful Celeste Morne with amulet ? She managed to force pushed Vader ;

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/Vadervscelestemoorne_zps79a82ff2.png

Originally posted by Nargaroth
So Vader's glove was simply durable enough to tank the blow? That is nonsense. His hand would still have been severed if he hadn't used the Force, and nothing in the quote says that his glove was scraped. It was a half-successful deflection at worst,but this doesn't change that he used the Force to deflect the blow. Not only that, but I never argued that Vader would win "solidly" (which I guess it means winning with ease), nor that he could dominate Maul with the Force, though a case could be probably made for that. I said that he wins in a good fight.
When did it tank the blow? It glanced his glove, which is essentially a scrape. If he had deflected the blow there would be no smoke, and it would have said that Vader deflected the blow.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
So Vader's glove was simply durable enough to tank the blow? That is nonsense. His hand would still have been severed if he hadn't used the Force, and nothing in the quote says that his glove was scraped. It was a half-successful deflection at worst,but this doesn't change that he used the Force to deflect the blow. Not only that, but I never argued that Vader would win "solidly" (which I guess it means winning with ease), nor that he could dominate Maul with the Force, though a case could be probably made for that. I said that he wins in a good fight.

Did you read the glove of darth vader ? One of his glove is indestructible.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Did you read the glove of darth vader ? One of his glove is indestructible.

Which one? The left one or the right one? Regardless, I recall that he had both his hands severed on several occasions, so I don't see how it is indestructible.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Which one? The left one or the right one? Regardless, I recall that he had both his hands severed on several occasions, so I don't see how it is indestructible.

Ah sorry, I read that long time ago, I checked it in wikia it says both of his gloves are made from mandalorian iron.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Glove_of_Darth_Vader

Anyway, it should be right hand, the same hand that Luke sliced at Death Star, then some people make fake prophecies about that indestructible glove and they tried to find it bla bla...

Originally posted by Marco1907
Ah sorry, I read that long time ago, I checked it in wikia it says both of his gloves are made from mandalorian iron.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Glove_of_Darth_Vader

Vader absorbed /deflected the lightsaber with his left hand, and your link states that only the right glove was indestructible.

Yeah true, the right glove.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Yeah true, the right glove.

That simply confirms what I said, which is that Vader deflected/absorbed (even if only half-successfully) the lightsaber blow by virtue of his command of the Force, because he did this with his left hand. The smoke doesn't indicate that it wasn't successful at all, because he still received little to no damage from it, and he would have lost his hand, something no one would have been able to do if his glove was indestructible.

I'm pretty sure that the Ultimate Visual Dictionary (Guide?), credits Vader's ability to deflect blaster bolts with his hands to his force mastery.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm pretty sure that the Ultimate Visual Dictionary (Guide?), credits Vader's ability to deflect blaster bolts with his hands to his force mastery.

As well as a few other sources, though I don't know the source you referenced.

I own the UVD. I'll check when I get home.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I own the UVD. I'll check when I get home.

Wonderful. If you don't mind, would you also search the page about Vader (and ,if possible, post it here)?

Originally posted by Marco1907
Star Wars Comic Magazine 02 (2014)

http://imageshack.com/a/img908/553/jrIkwi.jpg



''It's a close call, and these two Sith are well-matched in terms of fighting skills.''

Nuff said.

You have somehow proved, that Vader is superior by small margin. And that TPM Maul with saberstaff might be superior to his TCW version in terms of sabers.

Originally posted by McP
And that TPM Maul with saberstaff might be superior to his TCW version in terms of sabers.

How ? Maul had grown more powerful in every aspect in TCW.

Brilliant in lightsaber duels, especially when using a doube-bladed Sith lightsaer

Originally posted by McP
Brilliant in lightsaber duels, especially when using a doube-bladed Sith lightsaer

Well, he could make another saberstaff in TCW, but he didn't do that so I don't think that will make any difference for Maul

Perhaps.

Anyway, it would be much more interesting to see Maul with saberstaff again, and Opress with single blade and pure physical version of Djem So.

Maul isn't on Vaders level, period

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Maul isn't on Vaders level, period
Not with the Force, no. In terms of lightsaber skill and physicals, he most certainly is. In terms of overall threat level, yes, he is around Vader's level. Care to dispute?

Originally posted by Marco1907
Well, he could make another saberstaff in TCW, but he didn't do that so I don't think that will make any difference for Maul

He didn't have a spare Kyber Crystal hanging around, and/or didn't have time to make a new Saber.

But a Saberstaff is the weapon he's most adept at using.

Originally posted by ILS
Not with the Force, no. In terms of lightsaber skill and physicals, he most certainly is. In terms of overall threat level, yes, he is around Vader's level. Care to dispute? Sure. in terms of lightsaber skill, Maul is defiantly going to be a challenge for Vader, and he is over all faster than Darth Vader is. But Darth Vader sweeps all the other edges.

In terms of physical strength, maul is pretty strong, but Vader can snap a persons neck with one hand while holding them in the air.

In terms of physical endurance, Maul can take a hell of a lot of pain as he has tanked nightsister lightning and even worse and kept on fighting, but there is really no contest there, Darth Vader is a walking tank.

In terms of intelligence on the battle field, Maul has improved after getting cut in half but he still is hampered by pride (a small and seemingly insignificant factor but a factor none the less) Vader is hampered by no such pride.

In terms of the Force you already admitted that Maul isn't on Vaders level but if you indulge me I will argue that Maul cant even compete.

So now that I have stated my claims, is this ganna turn into a debate?

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Sure. in terms of lightsaber skill, Maul is defiantly going to be a challenge for Vader, and he is over all faster than Darth Vader is. But Darth Vader sweeps all the other edges.

In terms of physical strength, maul is pretty strong, but Vader can snap a persons neck with one hand while holding them in the air.

In terms of physical endurance, Maul can take a hell of a lot of pain as he has tanked nightsister lightning and even worse and kept on fighting, but there is really no contest there, Darth Vader is a walking tank.

In terms of intelligence on the battle field, Maul has improved after getting cut in half but he still is hampered by pride (a small and seemingly insignificant factor but a factor none the less) Vader is hampered by no such pride.

In terms of the Force you already admitted that Maul isn't on Vaders level but if you indulge me I will argue that Maul cant even compete.

So now that I have stated my claims, is this ganna turn into a debate?

Dude.. in terms of physical strength holding someone up by one arm and snapping their neck is something that should be stick-standard for both Maul and Vader. Maul has shattered spines with his strikes, is capable of tearing people apart limb from limb, has ripped the skull of a Varactyl clean off it's neck in a single jerk (and this was without even augmenting his Force strength), has kicked into a persons torso, broken through durasteel armor and smashed metal droids, shattered durasteel binders ect. Maul and Vader are highly comparable in terms of physical strength.

Vader being mostly cybernetic and having an armored suit is what makes him more durable than Maul. He has resistance to explosives, lightning ect due his armor and insulation, and he has redundant limbs which he doesn't need to survive. So yeah, he's more durable. Not really the most important factor though.

Maul doesn't have an issue with pride. Sure, he's overconfident as ****, but he doesn't play with his food unless it's something like Kenobi, who's a plot protected character and someone Maul wants to suffer rather than die. And in terms of battle tactics, being able to throw away and replace fighting strategies on the fly and casually alter the location of a fight should put him on par with or beyond Vader. Then you factor in tactical feats like turning a group of literal spear chuckers into a legitimate military militia in an afternoon, stalemating the CIS' full might without full military preparation, capturing Obi-Wan Kenobi twice, as well as Dooku and Grievous, ect, it becomes even more clear that Maul's intelligence isn't in question.

How exactly can't Maul compete in the Force? Sure, he's a couple of tiers behind Vader, but he isn't entirely defenceless. When Maul was 15 he nearly dropped an entire barracks to the ground with a Force scream, and at this time it was noted that his power was steadily increasing, and then during TCW it was further noted that he has received a power increase. He has feats like pulling a shuttle off a cliff whilst injured, ragdolling Kenobi repeatedly which is only something Dooku has replicated to my knowledge, collapsing a huge amount of debris, caving in a massive tunnel in the process, blowing dozens of droids and soldiers away on two occasions, ect. He's not entirely outmatched by Vader and there's no evidence to suggest Vader could dominate Maul or defeat him with TK. Any telekinetic throw he could land would more or less be recoverable from for Maul, due to his blunt force durability and Dark Rage proficiency.

I would call this a debate, yes :P

So ignoring TCW Maul's TK feats is okay now ? I am really curious, what will Vader do ? Is he going to ragdoll Maul, just like Sidious did ? I really doubt about that, Vader is no where near powerful as Sidious (%20 gap)...

Vader has better TK , no one denies that, but pretending like there is a too much difference and Vader just can ragdoll him whenever he like, it is too dumb.

Maul is already much faster than Vader, the speed difference is bigger than TK difference between Maul & Vader imo.

That's why this can go either way, Maul has big speed advantage , Vader has a TK advantage and better durability due to his armor.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He didn't have a spare Kyber Crystal hanging around, and/or didn't have time to make a new Saber.

But a Saberstaff is the weapon he's most adept at using.

But he killed lots of jedi between Season 4 and Season 5, he could take their crystal, or he could integrate Vizsla's darksaber with his own.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I own the UVD. I'll check when I get home.


Not dictionary. The Ultimate Visual Guide. There's a dictionary with a very similar title. IDK which one you own, but the one I used to own was the UVG, which has been updated since then, but I doubt the part about Vader blocking blaster bolts has changed. It was talking about Han's attempt to use his blaster against Vader during their confrontation on cloud city, but it was no match for Vader's force mastery (something along those lines).

Originally posted by Marco1907


But he killed lots of jedi between Season 4 and Season 5, he could take their crystal, or he could integrate Vizsla's darksaber with his own.

I think he'd prefer not to use a Jedi crystal (I.e. blue or green).

And he didn't have his Dark Saber for very long before Sidious came along and battered him. After that he lost his own red Saber. The handle on that Saber wad all wrong for a Saber staff anyway because Kenobi cut it and he was left with what appeared to be the shorter end.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think he'd prefer not to use a Jedi crystal (I.e. blue or green).

And he didn't have his Dark Saber for very long before Sidious came along and battered him. After that he lost his own red Saber. The handle on that Saber wad all wrong for a Saber staff anyway because Kenobi cut it and he was left with what appeared to be the shorter end.

Finding a synthetic red crystal shouldn't be that hard imo. Especially since he was controlling crime syndicates (including Hutts) & Mandalore planet. Even much inferior beings can easily find red crystal.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not dictionary. The Ultimate Visual Guide. There's a dictionary with a very similar title. IDK which one you own, but the one I used to own was the UVG, which has been updated since then, but I doubt the part about Vader blocking blaster bolts has changed. It was talking about Han's attempt to use his blaster against Vader during their confrontation on cloud city, but it was no match for Vader's force mastery (something along those lines).

Found it:

There, they are startled to find Darth Vader, who proves that a blaster is no match against the dark side of the Force.

-- The Ultimate Visual Guide, page 94

Originally posted by ILS
Dude.. in terms of physical strength holding someone up by one arm and snapping their neck is something that should be stick-standard for both Maul and Vader. Maul has shattered spines with his strikes, is capable of tearing people apart limb from limb, has ripped the skull of a Varactyl clean off it's neck in a single jerk (and this was without even augmenting his Force strength), has kicked into a persons torso, broken through durasteel armor and smashed metal droids, shattered durasteel binders ect. Maul and Vader are highly comparable in terms of physical strength.

Vader being mostly cybernetic and having an armored suit is what makes him more durable than Maul. He has resistance to explosives, lightning ect due his armor and insulation, and he has redundant limbs which he doesn't need to survive. So yeah, he's more durable. Not really the most important factor though.

Maul doesn't have an issue with pride. Sure, he's overconfident as ****, but he doesn't play with his food unless it's something like Kenobi, who's a plot protected character and someone Maul wants to suffer rather than die. And in terms of battle tactics, being able to throw away and replace fighting strategies on the fly and casually alter the location of a fight should put him on par with or beyond Vader. Then you factor in tactical feats like turning a group of literal spear chuckers into a legitimate military militia in an afternoon, stalemating the CIS' full might without full military preparation, capturing Obi-Wan Kenobi twice, as well as Dooku and Grievous, ect, it becomes even more clear that Maul's intelligence isn't in question.

How exactly can't Maul compete in the Force? Sure, he's a couple of tiers behind Vader, but he isn't entirely defenceless. When Maul was 15 he nearly dropped an entire barracks to the ground with a Force scream, and at this time it was noted that his power was steadily increasing, and then during TCW it was further noted that he has received a power increase. He has feats like pulling a shuttle off a cliff whilst injured, ragdolling Kenobi repeatedly which is only something Dooku has replicated to my knowledge, collapsing a huge amount of debris, caving in a massive tunnel in the process, blowing dozens of droids and soldiers away on two occasions, ect. He's not entirely outmatched by Vader and there's no evidence to suggest Vader could dominate Maul or defeat him with TK. Any telekinetic throw he could land would more or less be recoverable from for Maul, due to his blunt force durability and Dark Rage proficiency.

I would call this a debate, yes :P

You made one fatal mistake, and that was to dare indulge my superior intellect. Mwahahahhahaha


Actually being able to be impaled, shot in the head at point blank range, be mauled by a pack of wild animals, tank grenade explosions, ect and keep on fighting is a huge factor. On the one side you have a character that can take pain sure but if you hit him on the head with a metal beam he will be knocked out, on the other side you have a character who can take the same amount of pain but if you hit him on the head with a metal beam he will give you a dull look right before killing you (metaphor) Physical endurance matters a lot. And Vader can push through a hell of a lot of damage, where as Maul would be dead before he tanked half of what Vader can.

How Maul cant compete in the Force? well lets see. He is only the 4th person to choke out Kenobi. Dooku, Savage, and Ventress all need to be awarded that same medal. Mauls force scream ability is very impressive but (having never seen the material that contains this feat I may be wrong) I feel like it was most likely in a moment of extreme emotional rage or hatred or something along that line, seeing as how he has , as far as I know, never used the force scream ability again. And if we are counting moments like this then boy are you in for a treat because Vader goes HAM every time he thinks about padme.

Next pulling the shuttle off the cliff is an Okay feat, but it isn't nearly as impressive as it is made out to be. I bet you have heard the argument before that Maul did it out of desperation but I am par for the course on that one. He and his brother were injured and he was desperate. But then lets look at the feat itself, All that Maul actually did was move the shuttle a few feet, he didn't pick it up or throw it, or move it very fast even (all things that would have impressed me.) as you can see, the landing gear was bending because it was grinding along the ground and Maul only pushed it so that half of it was over the cliff and then let gravity do the work.

Also I am not one to be impressed by collapsing caves, they are made of rock, sure, but lets be honest, caves aren't the most stable structures around, they are subject to cave in by themselves without anyone doing anything and even loud noises can sometime cause a cave in. Moving a few stones has a high chance of causing a cave in. I mean C'mon

Blowing away dozens of people on TWO occasions? I am curious about the second, but I know on one of those occasions Maul did it as a joined effort with his brother. You cant really give that feat to either of them because you don't know how much was maul and how much was oppress. But I would like to see the other occasion. Any who Vader has done the exact same thing, by himself, no assistance. So feats kind of cancel each other out.

Now let me make some points as to why Maul is a lot inferior to Vader in the Force. (I think im just going to make one point for now and debate a few others later)

Vader has more Force powers at his disposal. Maul is lacking in both tutminus and saber throws and the powers that Maul does have, Vader can do better. Offensive telepathy? Maul can probe minds and use the basic mind trick, where as Vader can telepathically torture people. a victim of this said it felt like holes were punched in his brain that drained out all conscious thought.

Some people here really underestimate Maul's TK...

Skill with TK, deceives Jedi Master Salmara with his TK.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/forceelegancy_zps05a3c225.jpg

Salmara's TK is good enough to hold heavy boulders from collapsed cave.

Heart Stun

http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/karasakal_teach/media/Maulheartstun_zpsddc51d1c.jpg.html

Collapse the cave

http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/karasakal_teach/media/maulbreakstunnel_zps44eb2cc9.jpg.html

Force choke to Obi-Wan

http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/karasakal_teach/media/forcechokeobi-wan_zps77c46683.jpg.html

Manipulates 10 men with ease

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWars-DarthMaul-DeathSentence2004_zps974d53a3.jpg

Force waves on droid armies

http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/karasakal_teach/media/Star-Wars---Darth-Maul---Son-of-Dathomir-004-2014-Digital-Empire-017_zpsbb38f3c2.jpg.html

http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/karasakal_teach/media/Maulforcewave_zpsb6465493.jpg.html

http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/karasakal_teach/media/MaulForceWave1_zpsb717be8e.jpg.html

Force blast to Obi-Wan and collapsed the cave in process

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l74FlbZnS3k

Manipulates Eta-class shuttle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfrh8WM5n6s

Force chokes and pulls Obi-Wan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC9JbW7sc4Y

Originally posted by Marco1907
Heart Stun

http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/karasakal_teach/media/Maulheartstun_zpsddc51d1c.jpg.html


Ugh, Maul is such a dick.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
You made one fatal mistake, and that was to dare indulge my superior intellect. Mwahahahhahaha


Actually being able to be impaled, shot in the head at point blank range, be mauled by a pack of wild animals, tank grenade explosions, ect and keep on fighting is a huge factor. On the one side you have a character that can take pain sure but if you hit him on the head with a metal beam he will be knocked out, on the other side you have a character who can take the same amount of pain but if you hit him on the head with a metal beam he will give you a dull look right before killing you (metaphor) Physical endurance matters a lot. And Vader can push through a hell of a lot of damage, where as Maul would be dead before he tanked half of what Vader can.

How Maul cant compete in the Force? well lets see. He is only the 4th person to choke out Kenobi. Dooku, Savage, and Ventress all need to be awarded that same medal. Mauls force scream ability is very impressive but (having never seen the material that contains this feat I may be wrong) I feel like it was most likely in a moment of extreme emotional rage or hatred or something along that line, seeing as how he has , as far as I know, never used the force scream ability again. And if we are counting moments like this then boy are you in for a treat because Vader goes HAM every time he thinks about padme.

Next pulling the shuttle off the cliff is an Okay feat, but it isn't nearly as impressive as it is made out to be. I bet you have heard the argument before that Maul did it out of desperation but I am par for the course on that one. He and his brother were injured and he was desperate. But then lets look at the feat itself, All that Maul actually did was move the shuttle a few feet, he didn't pick it up or throw it, or move it very fast even (all things that would have impressed me.) as you can see, the landing gear was bending because it was grinding along the ground and Maul only pushed it so that half of it was over the cliff and then let gravity do the work.

Also I am not one to be impressed by collapsing caves, they are made of rock, sure, but lets be honest, caves aren't the most stable structures around, they are subject to cave in by themselves without anyone doing anything and even loud noises can sometime cause a cave in. Moving a few stones has a high chance of causing a cave in. I mean C'mon

Blowing away dozens of people on TWO occasions? I am curious about the second, but I know on one of those occasions Maul did it as a joined effort with his brother. You cant really give that feat to either of them because you don't know how much was maul and how much was oppress. But I would like to see the other occasion. Any who Vader has done the exact same thing, by himself, no assistance. So feats kind of cancel each other out.

Now let me make some points as to why Maul is a lot inferior to Vader in the Force. (I think im just going to make one point for now and debate a few others later)

Vader has more Force powers at his disposal. Maul is lacking in both tutminus and saber throws and the powers that Maul does have, Vader can do better. Offensive telepathy? Maul can probe minds and use the basic mind trick, where as Vader can telepathically torture a victim of this said it felt like holes were punched in his brain that drained out all conscious thought.

1. I'm guessing you agree with what I said about strength, since you failed to address that part of my rebuttal.

2. A metal f*cking pole isn't going to knock Maul out. If you want his durability feats look up his respect threads, that's all I'm giving you. Educate yourself on Maul's abilities. I'm all for comparing feats and what not but some of what you're coming out with is pretty abhorrent (no offence, this is just from a debating standpoint).

3. Savage has never choked or ragdolled Kenobi in the Force. He Force pushed him whilst highly enraged, beyond any level of range he's ever exhibited. The same goes with Ventress and her choking of Kenobi and Anakin, although her instance is an inconsistency more than anything, because she has no business Force choking EU Anakin.

4. Here is the Force Scream quote, and again note that Maul was 15 years old at this point in time, and was steadily increasing in power, and then received a monumental power surge twelve years after TPM.



5. I don't get what you're trying to insinuate with the shuttle feat. I'm telling you exactly what's on the tin. Maul pulled a pretty massive shuttle off of a cliff while he was injured. There was no indication that he was amped at the time or even really strained, only that he was desperate because he was being shot at.

6. Dude, I'm not talking about Maul "caving in" a cave, he caved in a tunnel. The tunnel's integrity was completely solid, it wasn't some mine, it was an underground military complex. Take a look for yourself at the scale of what Maul brought down:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/3759312-maul+collapses+massive+tunnel+tk.png

7. The second occasion was when Maul leaped into the middle of the CIS' frontline forces and blew away all the droids around him, in SoD.

8. Tutaminis is irrelevant to this fight because nobody has Lightning or a blaster. Maul is certainly not lacking in his ability to utilise saber throw - it's one of his favourite moves.

He killed Ko Solok with it during their duel, used it to shut a door and destroy a huge droid on Lotho Minor. He threw a spear over hundreds of feet like a missile, impaling a clone that was standing next to Obi-Wan Kenobi. During TPM he used it to take out a speeder engine IIRC. Just look at his respect threads, there are plenty of examples of him using it. Not that it even matters because I doubt either Vader or Maul would throw their only means on winning the fight away...

You also obviously know little about Maul's telepathy, which is a shame, and you also seem to think telepathy would even matter here. But just for reference, Maul used combative telepathy against Obi-Wan during TPM, specifically Cloud Mind, which ****ed with his mind and left him open to counter-attack. He convinced a soldier to suicide bomb dozens of his fellow soldiers against his will. His mental resistance was sufficient to kill an Ikotchi telepath after merely probing Maul's mind, even causing blood to spurt from his mouth. Maul has nonchalantly caused people to lose interest in him against their will. You're wrong that Vader outclasses Maul as a telepath and that this even matters in terms of combat. You're also wrong in thinking that Vader's Force knowledge outclasses Maul's, seeing as Maul has plenty of esoteric powers Vader to my knowledge hasn't used, i.e gravity manipulation, using the Force as a lie detector, Cloud Mind, Force Cloaking, Mechu-Deru ect. Not all are applicable to combat but that's because of Maul's eariler roles in espionage.

So all in all my point still stands. Vader isn't dominating Maul through telekinesis, and he isn't killing him that way either. His main way of defeating Maul would be through Sabers, which I reluctantly give to Vader slightly because it makes life easier not to argue about it on a site where Maul is already lowballed to the high heavens.

Also, a note on the shuttle feat. Maul clearly pulled it all the way off the cliff, not just until the landing ramp got to the edge. He needed to pull the shuttle all the way off the cliff otherwise it would have fallen short and wouldn't have acted as an obstacle, and he only lowered his arm once it had fallen right off the cliff. There's nothing overhyped about the feat, it's exactly what it says on the tin.

If we're talking metal beams don't forget that Vader tanked this:

eesWu6oBxEU

2.50

I mean I'm pretty sure Maul would be fvcking dead from that, lol.

Maul can totes take lightsabers to the face.

Er, Maul fell 100 feet and then had the debris from a landing platform and a skycar fall ontop of him, his only injury being semi-conscious. People are seriously overlooking his durability, apparently.

Originally posted by ILS
Er, Maul fell 100 feet and then had the debris from a landing platform and a skycar fall ontop of him, his only injury being semi-conscious. People are seriously overlooking his durability, apparently.

Yeah, but no one's going to do that to him. On the other hand, lightsabers are a real danger.

Last time Maul had a lightsaber in his gut, well...

Originally posted by Aurbere
Yeah, but no one's going to do that to him. On the other hand, lightsabers are a real danger.

Last time Maul had a lightsaber in his gut, well...
Right, but I don't remember saying that, or that a lightsaber isn't, so?

Last time he had a lightsaber in his gut he... survived where most other people would cry themselves to death? Yeah, not such a bad feat after all.

Technically speaking, the last time he had a lightsaber in his gut was in the Death Sentence comic, and he shrugged it off like it was nothing because it was in his enchanted metal portion.

His enchanted metal portion?

Talzin's magic.

Originally posted by ILS
Right, but I don't remember saying that, or that a lightsaber isn't, so?


Soooo... there is no threat from 100 foot drops or anything of the sort. Lightsabers are a threat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His enchanted metal portion?

The part where his special parts used to be.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Soooo... there is no threat from 100 foot drops or anything of the sort. Lightsabers are a threat.
Are you not getting the part where I was using that feat in response to Vader using telekinesis against Maul? Or are you just here troll?

Originally posted by ILS
Are you not getting the part where I was using that feat in response to Vader using telekinesis against Maul? Or are you just here troll?

I was trying to say that injuries of that type are unlikely to occur, whereas getting decapitated could happen.

Saying that Maul can take a 100 foot drop is moot because that isn't something that can happen on a neutral ground (which I assume is where this is taking place).

Try to chill.

Originally posted by ILS
Are you not getting the part where I was using that feat in response to Vader using telekinesis against Maul? Or are you just here troll?
Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Originally posted by Aurbere
I was trying to say that injuries of that type are unlikely to occur, whereas getting decapitated could happen.

Saying that Maul can take a 100 foot drop is moot because that isn't something that can happen on a neutral ground (which I assume is where this is taking place).

Try to chill.
Right, but I've been having it shoved down my throat all day that Vader defeats Maul "solidly" due to him "outclassing" Maul with Force power. My response to this is the 100 foot drop feat. I wasn't ever disputing that a lightsaber wouldn't harm Maul, I was bringing up a feat relevant to the specific argument. You telling me that blunt force durability =/= energy resistance isn't news to me.



Oh god.....

Originally posted by ILS
Right, but I've been having it shoved down my throat all day that Vader defeats Maul "solidly" due to him "outclassing" Maul with Force power. My response to this is the 100 foot drop feat. I wasn't ever disputing that a lightsaber wouldn't harm Maul, I was bringing up a feat relevant to the specific argument. You telling me that blunt force durability =/= energy resistance isn't news to me.


Well, to be honest, I don't see how Vader is going to TK Maul to death unless he Force Chokes him or slams him into the ground repeatedly. Neither of which I see happening.

Of course, certain TK attacks can catch Maul off guard and give Vader an opening. But that's all I see TK doing unless Vader puts his back into it.

Exactly my thoughts.

We got there in the end, man. Didn't mean to come off as bitter there.

Originally posted by ILS
Exactly my thoughts.

We got there in the end, man. Didn't mean to come off as bitter there.

It happens.

Well lets not forget that Sidious beat Maul with TK. Just because Maul can survive getting the crap beat out of him doesn't mean getting slammed into walls isn't going to damage him and let Vader beat him. Not to mention that Vader very much can hit him with some very heavy and large objects. In TFU2 he threw an entire platform at Starkiller, for example.

Either it's a low showing, because that level of impact wouldn't phase Maul in other sources (and we all know how TCW likes to defile consistency), or Sidious was able to hurl Maul harder than someone like Vader ever could.

I agree Vader might be able to damage Maul, but then we're talking about a guy who gets shot in the arm point blank by a blaster, and instead of simply having his arm blown off, decides to amplify his physical speed beyond what he was running with in the first place and speedblitz another Force sensitive. Dark Rage, gravity manipulation, these are the keys to countering Vader's TK. He just isn't beating Maul with it. And it's not like Maul couldn't dodge these telekinetic projectiles anyway, he isn't slow.

Maul's not dodging if Vader stuns him by say, throwing him into a wall first. Even Obi-Wan has tied up Maul for a decent amount of time with TK. It's hardly out of the picture.

I just think you're really underestimating what having the TK advantage can do. Especially with TK on Vaders level. The guy shattered a material imperial scientists thought to be unbreakable, its not as if he's limited to some shoves.

1. sure we can agree to disagree on that point for the moment.

2. I told you it was a metaphor trying to prove a point. A glass canon is inferior to a canon that can shoot the same damage but can take three times the damage. I wasn't suggesting that Maul is going to get beaten by a metal pole.

3. Yea savage was amped but Ventress also got her TK fingers around Kenobis throat once. No matter how you spin it, it happened.

4. I looked into it. Mauls Force scream was when he was enraged, your quote even confirms it, and it is the only instance of it happening.

5. Maul has always done his best feats when his brother is in danger. Savage looses an arm, and Maul blast Kenobi. Savage is wounded and in danger, he pulls down a shuttle, Savage dies to sidious and Maul manages to stalemate his master for a short time. *shrugs* just making an observation.

6. ah my bad

7. Vader has done a lot better
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111155790/3914942-7695568615-33344.jpg
>>>>>
http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/karasakal_teach/media/MaulForceWave1_zpsb717be8e.jpg.html

8. Tutaminus still speaks to a greater knowledge of the Force

As for saber throw I am guessing you don't understand how deadly that ability is, its a spinning lightsaber being guided by the Force. "Throwing their weapon away?" dude you know that they call it right back to their hands. Throwing a lightsaber isn't a one off, And Vader has taken out groups of enemies with one throw. Its a great ability

Originally posted by Marco1907
Star Wars Comic Magazine 02 (2014)

http://imageshack.com/a/img908/553/jrIkwi.jpg



''It's a close call, and these two Sith are well-matched in terms of fighting skills.''

Nuff said.
And then it goes on to declare Vader the winner...

Originally posted by ILS


3. Savage has never choked or ragdolled Kenobi in the Force. He Force pushed him whilst highly enraged, beyond any level of range he's ever exhibited. The same goes with Ventress and her choking of Kenobi and Anakin, although her instance is an inconsistency more than anything, because she has no business Force choking EU Anakin.



Savage has ragdolled Anakin and Kenobi. Yes the most notable time was when Opress was Rage enhanced after fighting Dooku.

But there was also once on Toydaria when he shoved Anakin and Obi-Wan off his back.

Savage like Maul has also chucked a starship with Tk. He ragdolled Adi Gallia. He smashed out of a Mandalorian prison.

His Tk is easily on par with Maul's in terms of raw power. I actually think he had greater raw tk power than Maul, but that's debateable.

Maul however has far far greater skill and precision in using his Tk. Whilst Opress with his lack of training just let's it out in Waves.

But that's Opress's whole power. His beastly force wave backed by his tremendous physical strength. And it is based solely on those 2 things he beats down his opponents, given he lacks any proper skill and training.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Savage has ragdolled Anakin and Kenobi. Yes the most notable time was when Opress was Rage enhanced after fighting Dooku.

But there was also once on Toydaria when he shoved Anakin and Obi-Wan off his back.

Savage like Maul has also chucked a starship with Tk. He ragdolled Adi Gallia. He smashed out of a Mandalorian prison.

His Tk is easily on par with Maul's in terms of raw power. I actually think he had greater raw tk power than Maul, but that's debateable.

Maul however has far far greater skill and precision in using his Tk. Whilst Opress with his lack of training just let's it out in Waves.

But that's Opress's whole power. His beastly force wave backed by his tremendous physical strength. And it is based solely on those 2 things he beats down his opponents, given he lacks any proper skill and training.
1. He didn't ragdoll them. Ragdolling someone is taking complete control over them, dominating them through their Force shields. Savage has only ever done this to a non-Force sensitive. He Force pushed Kenobi and Anakin whilst benefiting from an example of Dark Rage he has never again replicated. He threw them off his back through physical power, not telekinesis, and that still isn't ragdolling.

2. Savage pushed a comparatively small ship towards a cliff and it did a good deal of the falling and motion itself. Maul pulled a much larger shuttle a further distance, and he pulled it straight off the cliff, not just towards it's edge. He didn't ragdoll Adi Gallia - he pushed her. Breaking the Beskar prison glass is a good feat which makes him comparable to Maul.

3.I actually see them as even in power but Maul has far greater precision. In fact Maul actually appears to be more powerful, given the effort Savage put into pushing a small ship in comparison to the mid-effort Maul put into pulling a much larger shuttle. Savage required tremendous effort/rage on his part just to Force push a small company of droids whereas Maul replicated the same feat in SoD with little effort whatsoever. And even in their combined TK feat against a collective of soldiers, Savage was audibly showing effort on his part by grunting, implying the task was harder for him than Maul.

4. Savage doesn't lack skill or training, and he doesn't wholly rely on power and strength. Shadow Conspiracy noted him as having astonishing skill, and in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, it's noted that only a truly masterful combatant can wield a Saberstaff, because you need to be in absolute perfect attunement with the weapon as not to cut yourself in half. He was giving Ventress a good fight in H2H before even becoming Force sensitive, and he didn't rely on power against Plo Koon when he was kicking him in the face and dodging his blows whilst contending multiple clone troopers shooting at him. People just look at a big fighter and instantly assume he isn't fast or skilled because for some reason clinging onto pre-conceived notions is the norm in SW debates.

Originally posted by ILS
1. He didn't ragdoll them. Ragdolling someone is taking complete control over them, dominating them through their Force shields. Savage has only ever done this to a non-Force sensitive. He Force pushed Kenobi and Anakin whilst benefiting from an example of Dark Rage he has never again replicated. He threw them off his back through physical power, not telekinesis, and that still isn't ragdolling.

1.
I'm not sure how Ragdolling doesn't apply to what Savage did to Kenobi/Skywalker. Unless your definition of ragdolling is a complete defeat.

Urm no, I'm pretty sure he used Tk to shove them off his back, because they went flying. Before that the 2 of them were physically restraining him. Don't forget Skywalker has a Cyborg arm, and has tremendous physical strength himself.


Originally posted by ILS
2. Savage pushed a comparatively small ship towards a cliff and it did a good deal of the falling and motion itself. Maul pulled a much larger shuttle a further distance, and he pulled it straight off the cliff, not just towards it's edge. He didn't ragdoll Adi Gallia - he pushed her. Breaking the Beskar prison glass is a good feat which makes him comparable to Maul.

2.
The ship is pretty comparable in size to the one Maul pulled. It's not as big in the inside, but has huge wings on it.

Again we seem to be playing semantics with this "Ragdolling" word.

He did send her flying and overpower her with that force push right? How's it different to what Maul did to Kenobi later? Except that one caused a cave in, because they were in a cave.



Originally posted by ILS
3.I actually see them as even in power but Maul has far greater precision. In fact Maul actually appears to be more powerful, given the effort Savage put into pushing a small ship in comparison to the mid-effort Maul put into pulling a much larger shuttle. Savage required tremendous effort/rage on his part just to Force push a small company of droids whereas Maul replicated the same feat in SoD with little effort whatsoever. And even in their combined TK feat against a collective of soldiers, Savage was audibly showing effort on his part by grunting, implying the task was harder for him than Maul.

3.
Again the ships are not as different in size as your making out. I honestly put them on par in terms of raw power, but obviously Rage enhanced Savage has displayed the most Raw Tk Power.

Agree that Maul has far greater skill and precision with his Tk.




Originally posted by ILS
4. Savage doesn't lack skill or training, and he doesn't wholly rely on power and strength. Shadow Conspiracy noted him as having astonishing skill, and in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, it's noted that only a truly masterful combatant can wield a Saberstaff, because you need to be in absolute perfect attunement with the weapon as not to cut yourself in half. He was giving Ventress a good fight in H2H before even becoming Force sensitive, and he didn't rely on power against Plo Koon when he was kicking him in the face and dodging his blows whilst contending multiple clone troopers shooting at him. People just look at a big fighter and instantly assume he isn't fast or skilled because for some reason clinging onto pre-conceived notions is the norm in SW debates.


4.
He has combat training and a lot of natural skill being chosen as the best from a warrior race.

But he has very little training and skill in using the Force.

Ragdolling is what Sidious did to Maul and Savage, or what Dooku did to Kenobi during RotS. When you literally ragdoll them. Pushing or hurling someone isn't ragdolling, it's momentarily breaking their Force shield, not completely dominating them. I'm not arguing semantics, this is just what these words mean, and there's a big difference between "ragdolling" and pushing.

There's nothing in that scene to suggest he did it with TK, at all. He threw them with his physical strength, and either way it still couldn't be classed as a "ragdoll" even if it was TK, which is wasn't.

There's a difference between the one-man ship Savage pushed and the shuttle, I repeat, shuttle, that Maul pulled. Just look at both of them, it's pretty easy to see that one is much bigger than the other.

Yes, Savage pushed Gallia, but he didn't ragdoll her. There was a portion of the fight just prior to Savage losing his arm where Maul literally picked Kenobi up like a ragdoll then threw him at the wall. This is ragdolling someone. He also choked Kenobi in the Sith Hunters comic.

You haven't really countered my points on rage levels/effort exertion. As far as I'm concerned Maul is both more powerful and more skilled than his brother. There are plenty of parallels I can draw between their feats that suggest Maul is more powerful.

Agreed on 4.