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Do you think the 10 years later sequence at the end of DBZ featuring Uub will stay as is, or do you think it will be retconned in light of the new movies and TV series?

I only ask because it seems like Kid Buu level power has become almost entirely irrelevant these days.

May as well be retconned by this point. Shame in Uub's case though.

It'll probably be retconed unfortunately.

Uub will be Beerus Level very soon.

You can look at it a few ways...

a.) It will be retconned and/or ignored. As you said: Boo-level power is entirely inconsequential at this point. Goku can stomp any version of Boo in his base level now.

b.) They can go the Freeza route with Oob. What I mean is: Freeza had never trained a day in his life, yet was still one of the top powers in the DBU. So when Freeza actually did train(for the first time ever), he was able to achieve inconceivable gains in a matter of a few months. Maybe Oob might be capable of a similar power-to-training ratio..? After all, the kid had never received any training whatsoever, yet contended decently against base Goku when he got pissed--which means his power is ridiculously massive(especially when we consider that he was technically fighting post-BoG/RoF Goku there.) That said, perhaps if he received formal training from Goku we'd see the same sort of exponential power-increases we saw with Freeza..? It's a long shot, I know, but I'm still holding onto a shred of hope that Oob will stay relevant.

I see the same thing that happened to Gohan happening to Uub.

Originally posted by john allerdyce
Do you think the 10 years later sequence at the end of DBZ featuring Uub will stay as is, or do you think it will be retconned in light of the new movies and TV series?

I only ask because it seems like Kid Buu level power has become almost entirely irrelevant these days.

Stay as it is.. Uub trains/gets an upgrade. Maybe we get s version of GT Majuub.

So, think we'll ever see GT elements

The DBZ games put GT as an alternate universe, didn't they? And Toriyama opened the door on alternate universes. Imagine an Earth 1 Superman meeting Earth 2 Superman kind of story.. SSJ4 Saiyans vs SSJ Gods.

(The movies are confirmed alt universes, aren't they? Fully expecting a Legendary SSJ that surpasses gods in the future )

Originally posted by cdtm
So, think we'll ever see GT elements Yes. The basic plot of GT was Goku and friends going off into space to find the Ultimate Dragon Balls. Toriyama has already confirmed that after Super readapts BoG and RoF, the storyline will shift to Goku and friends going into a new universe to find the "Super" Dragon Balls. That alone is a pretty glaring similarity.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes. The basic plot of GT was Goku and friends going off into space to find the Ultimate Dragon Balls. Toriyama has already confirmed that after Super readapts BoG and RoF, the storyline will shift to Goku and friends going into a new universe to find the "Super" Dragon Balls. That alone is a pretty glaring similarity.

Interesting!

Not proof that GT is canon in full, but it does sound like Toriyama is at least taking concepts he liked from GT..

Originally posted by cdtm
Interesting!

Not proof that GT is canon in full, but it does sound like Toriyama is at least taking concepts he liked from GT.. While Toriyama didn't write the story for GT, we do know that he gave a stamp of approval to some of the basic elements of the storyline. So he is aware(or at least was aware at the time) of concepts like Goku being wished back into a kid, the Z Fighters venturing into space, etc.

So it is entirely possible that he could include even more elements from GT into Super... Or he might not. The field is completely open for him to do pretty much whatever he wants at this point.

I want to believe Toriyama didn't approve of some random alien in the middle of nowhere being as strong as Buu. Why would the Kais ever bother trying to stop Buu if they can find aliens who surpass him?

i'm just worried that DBS will try to pack too much into the 10 year gap between the buu saga and end of Z.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I want to believe Toriyama didn't approve of some random alien in the middle of nowhere being as strong as Buu. Why would the Kais ever bother trying to stop Buu if they can find aliens who surpass him?

The same way they acted so shocked at Saiyan's power levels.

The Kaio-Shins were portrayed as out of touch with the lower worlds, to say the least.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I want to believe Toriyama didn't approve of some random alien in the middle of nowhere being as strong as Buu. Why would the Kais ever bother trying to stop Buu if they can find aliens who surpass him? Yeah, he was only aware of a few key concepts from GT when it was first getting started. I doubt he was given any info regarding the potential threats Goku would face.

Aside from that, the Kaioshin/Kibito obviously paid very little attention to the mortal sphere prior to the Boo saga. After all, the guy had no idea that Saiyans were capable of generating such power. He also had a very limited comprehension of the friggin God of Destruction, even though he was roaming around the universe 39 years prior... But somehow he knew of Freeza? Lol.

Out of touch is right.

Originally posted by john allerdyce
i'm just worried that DBS will try to pack too much into the 10 year gap between the buu saga and end of Z. For a point of comparison: there were around 12 years between the start of the Saiyan saga, and the end of the Boo saga... And that's counting the 7 year lapse between the Cell and Boo sagas(wherein nothing of note happened.) I mean, there were less than 2 months(in-universe time) between Vegeta/Nappa first landing on Earth, and Goku defeating Freeza as a Super Saiyan... Hell, the entire Boo saga took place over a span of 2 days, lol.

Suffice to say: Toriyama can do a lot with 10 years of in-universe time. You needn't worry about him overdoing it here.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, he was only aware of a few key concepts from GT when it was first getting started. I doubt he was given any info regarding the potential threats Goku would face.

Aside from that, the Kaioshin/Kibito obviously paid very little attention to the mortal sphere prior to the Boo saga. After all, the guy had no idea that Saiyans were capable of generating such power. He also had a very limited comprehension of the friggin God of Destruction, even though he was roaming around the universe 39 years prior... But somehow he knew of Freeza? Lol.

Good. GT had a few neat ideas I guess but man did they need to fix that writing something fierce.

Well for most of his life the Saiyans have been less than impressive. Deadly sure but nothing to write home about. Freeza could destroy planets and Super seems to imply that the Kaioshin see it when it happens. Idk why he knows so little about Beerus though. Maybe the 39 years is in their time and it was really like 39 million years.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
I want to believe Toriyama didn't approve of some random alien in the middle of nowhere being as strong as Buu.

On the other hand, I could totally believe Toriyama approved Vegeta's ridiculous SSJ4 look, because of how much he hates the character.

Originally posted by cdtm
On the other hand, I could totally believe Toriyama approved Vegeta's ridiculous SSJ4 look, because of how much he hates the character.

Toriyama doesn't hate Vegeta, he just sticks to the same lame personality and weakness that defined the character and made it succesful. It's the fans that blindly want Vegeta to stop sucking, that would be against the whole point of the character

Indeed. Vegeta is Toriyama's greatest character in terms of development.

Vegeta was for a long time a terrible person. He turned good-ish but when Goku made his dick feel tiny he went out of his way to kill innocent people. Why should Toriyama reward him for anything?

Originally posted by john allerdyce
Do you think the 10 years later sequence at the end of DBZ featuring Uub will stay as is, or do you think it will be retconned in light of the new movies and TV series?

I only ask because it seems like Kid Buu level power has become almost entirely irrelevant these days.


Toriyama is known to simply forget older stuff, so I'd consider it gone.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Freeza could destroy planets and Super seems to imply that the Kaioshin see it when it happens. Idk why he knows so little about Beerus though. I don't think Kaioshin are alerted every time a planet is destroyed. If that were the case, then Boo wouldn't have been able to destroy hundreds of planets in a years-long rampage before the 5 original Kaioshin intervened. Remember, they operate in a universal(and beyond) capacity. A planet getting destroyed here and there is inconsequential in the scope of things. /shrug

Tbh, I don't think the Kaioshin paid much attention to mortal affairs until the threat in question superseded the ability of their underlings(ie. the galactic Kaio and Dai Kaio) to handle. The Godly 'chain of command' is in place for a reason, after all.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Maybe the 39 years is in their time and it was really like 39 million years. Nah, it was just 39 years. That's how Beerus has interacted with Freeza and King Vegeta.

Originally posted by cdtm
On the other hand, I could totally believe Toriyama approved Vegeta's ridiculous SSJ4 look, because of how much he hates the character. I don't know about Vegeta, but Toriyama did come up with Goku's original SSJ4 design:
http://i.imgur.com/1KwJkNh.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't know about Vegeta, but Toriyama did come up with Goku's original SSJ4 design:
http://i.imgur.com/1KwJkNh.jpg
I'm convinced that Toriyama drew that as a "**** you! Come up with your own shit," to the concept artists, but the point went over their heads.

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't think Kaioshin are alerted every time a planet is destroyed. If that were the case, then Boo wouldn't have been able to destroy hundreds of planets in a years-long rampage before the 5 original Kaioshin intervened. Remember, they operate in a universal(and beyond) capacity. A planet getting destroyed here and there is inconsequential in the scope of things. /shrug

Tbh, I don't think the Kaioshin paid much attention to mortal affairs until the threat in question superseded the ability of their underlings(ie. the galactic Kaio and Dai Kaio) to handle. The Godly 'chain of command' is in place for a reason, after all.

Nah, it was just 39 years. That's how Beerus has interacted with Freeza and King Vegeta.

I don't know about Vegeta, but Toriyama did come up with Goku's original SSJ4 design:
http://i.imgur.com/1KwJkNh.jpg

He did???

So this is inaccurate?


http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_4





Edited: Googling around now, and came up with this board convo. Haven't read it all yet, but:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15927



So it's misleading to refer to that sketch as Toriyama's "SSj4 design" as if it were analogous to the design sketches he drew for some of the movie villains, since he had no role in designing this character. It's just a sketch of SSj4 Goku that Toriyama drew years after GT ended.

Give me SSJ4 over the 'SSJ1 with different color' forms of the new stuff. I find it a visually interesting design!

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Indeed. Vegeta is Toriyama's greatest character in terms of development.

Vegeta was for a long time a terrible person. He turned good-ish but when Goku made his dick feel tiny he went out of his way to kill innocent people. Why should Toriyama reward him for anything?

Always believed that role fell to Piccolo.

The main was basically recreated to be pure evil like his father. At the beginning he was that villain, he choose to change into a better person not only for himself but for Gohan.

Piccolo basically became a good person through good development.

And unlike Vegeta, he didn't whine and moan for more power because someone else was stronger than him, he just trained more. And he sure as hell didn't put the Earth and the Universe in danger just because he was jealous.

Hell, the shit Vegeta did in the Buu saga proved to me, no matter what, Vegeta is a shitty character.

Piccolo had no family on Earth, yet he still protected it, where as Vegeta had a wife and son, yet he willingly give himself to Babidi's control just for power.

He killed a bunch of innocence people just to riled up Goku into fighting him. That's not a good person.

Akira should have just let Vegeta stay dead.

Originally posted by Q99
Give me SSJ4 over the 'SSJ1 with different color' forms of the new stuff. I find it a visually interesting design!

Yeah, the uniqueness from "blonde/spiky/ki bolts" is what I like about it.

It's Vegeta's design specifically that looks a bit questionable. Purple gloves, purple uggs, brown hair highlights..

And then there's the awesome shiny, skin tight teal leather pants.

Originally posted by SquallX
Always believed that role fell to Piccolo.

Piccolo is pure win

Originally posted by cdtm
Edited: Googling around now, and came up with this board convo. Haven't read it all yet, but:

So it's misleading to refer to that sketch as Toriyama's "SSj4 design" as if it were analogous to the design sketches he drew for some of the movie villains, since he had no role in designing this character. It's just a sketch of SSj4 Goku that Toriyama drew years after GT ended Good catch.

Originally posted by Q99
Give me SSJ4 over the 'SSJ1 with different color' forms of the new stuff. I find it a visually interesting design! Agreed. It's more reminiscent of a Saiyan's Oozaru heritage as well.

I'm not much on the pink fur, though --I think it brown or gold fur would have looked better-- but the design itself is excellent.

Originally posted by Bentley
Piccolo is pure win

Yes, yes he was.

****! If only Akira had continued to give him relevance. He could have given him a super Namekian transcended form.

I mean, by just fusing with Nail, he was able to beat the living day lights out of Frieza's 2nd form.

In that fight, before power levels were thrown out the window, he's power level was over 1 million.

Frieza had to transform to even hang with him.

Then on Earth after he fused with Kami, he was able to almost kill Cell, if Cell hadn't run away, he would have died.

Am hoping Akira makes the z fighters relevant in this new series. Have them get train by the Gods of destructions.

And kill Vegeta. That ****er.

DBM's concept for Gast Carcolh was very interesting. He is basically a fusion of every living Namekian, using Nail and Guru as a base. Initially, his power was sufficient to stomp Freeza. Over time, he became powerful enough to own the likes of Zen Buu(who was > Vegetto.)


It'd be cool to see Piccolo become the same type of Namekian 'Ubermensch'. Perhaps have some sort of plague that is killing-off the remaining Namekians, and the only way for them to be saved is by merging with Piccolo. That would at least make him relevant again. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes. The basic plot of GT was Goku and friends going off into space to find the Ultimate Dragon Balls. Toriyama has already confirmed that after Super readapts BoG and RoF, the storyline will shift to Goku and friends going into a new universe to find the "Super" Dragon Balls. That alone is a pretty glaring similarity. I want to see the Namek who created those dragon balls. Guy must be hella strong

At this point, I'm convinced they're better off retconning/rewriting/continuing on from that point. Maybe even retcon the fact that it's a ten-year gap into something smaller (I know Saiyans don't age past their prime, but still).

Originally posted by SquallX
Yes, yes he was.

****! If only Akira had continued to give him relevance. He could have given him a super Namekian transcended form.

I mean, by just fusing with Nail, he was able to beat the living day lights out of Frieza's 2nd form.

In that fight, before power levels were thrown out the window, he's power level was over 1 million.

Frieza had to transform to even hang with him.

Then on Earth after he fused with Kami, he was able to almost kill Cell, if Cell hadn't run away, he would have died.

Am hoping Akira makes the z fighters relevant in this new series. Have them get train by the Gods of destructions.

And kill Vegeta. That ****er.

Preach. Toriyama's said on and off that Piccolo's his favorite character, and I think that shows throughout all the sagas besides the Buu saga (where even then, he was still plenty relevant, if more as a mentor than a fighter). Hell, even what screen time he had in GT managed to tip the scales in the heroes' favor when needed (even though I still find the Black Star Dragon Balls to be a plot hole).

Originally posted by Astner
I'm convinced that Toriyama drew that as a "**** you! Come up with your own shit," to the concept artists, but the point went over their heads.

It beats the shit outta, Red Hair! Blue Hair! Green Hair! Oh my!

Originally posted by Galan007


Agreed. It's more reminiscent of a Saiyan's Oozaru heritage as well.


Thank you! This is exactly why I love the SS4 transformation. It comes full circle for the Saiyan heritage.

Not really, imo. The whole red-fur-black-hair-for-no-reason never struck much of a chord for me. A golden oozaru on its own made more sense as far as a "full-circle" super saiyan went.

Is Golden oozaru canon? And reason doesn't have much to do with any of the transformations. Where the phuck are SS3 Goku's eyebrows?

Originally posted by SquallX
Always believed that role fell to Piccolo.

The main was basically recreated to be pure evil like his father. At the beginning he was that villain, he choose to change into a better person not only for himself but for Gohan.

Piccolo basically became a good person through good development.

And unlike Vegeta, he didn't whine and moan for more power because someone else was stronger than him, he just trained more. And he sure as hell didn't put the Earth and the Universe in danger just because he was jealous.

Hell, the shit Vegeta did in the Buu saga proved to me, no matter what, Vegeta is a shitty character.

Piccolo had no family on Earth, yet he still protected it, where as Vegeta had a wife and son, yet he willingly give himself to Babidi's control just for power.

He killed a bunch of innocence people just to riled up Goku into fighting him. That's not a good person.

Akira should have just let Vegeta stay dead.
Vegeta's always been a mixed bag for me, but what you said is why Piccolo's the better character/person. The former has always been a bit overrated.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
It beats the shit outta, Red Hair! Blue Hair! Green Hair! Oh my!


Thank you! This is exactly why I love the SS4 transformation. It comes full circle for the Saiyan heritage.
While not my favorite thing, I did at least like how SSJ4 put the ape aspects on display again, since that aspect of the race just stopped mattering altogether prior to that point... Kinda the case again now with the less than inspiring SSJG recolors.

I wanna see ape aspects of (at least) the pure blood saiyans again over neutered monkeys with random hair recolors.

I agree on seeing more of Great Apes. I really wish they did something with that again.

Originally posted by SquallX
Always believed that role fell to Piccolo.

The main was basically recreated to be pure evil like his father. At the beginning he was that villain, he choose to change into a better person not only for himself but for Gohan.

Piccolo basically became a good person through good development.

And unlike Vegeta, he didn't whine and moan for more power because someone else was stronger than him, he just trained more. And he sure as hell didn't put the Earth and the Universe in danger just because he was jealous.

Hell, the shit Vegeta did in the Buu saga proved to me, no matter what, Vegeta is a shitty character.

Piccolo had no family on Earth, yet he still protected it, where as Vegeta had a wife and son, yet he willingly give himself to Babidi's control just for power.

He killed a bunch of innocence people just to riled up Goku into fighting him. That's not a good person.

Akira should have just let Vegeta stay dead.

The thing about Vegeta is...he's not a human being or a namekian. He's a saiyan and what they do for power and the thrill of a good fight makes literally no sense where the ones they care about come in. Goku is a victim to that saiyan nature time and time and time again. He endangered everyone on Earth by giving Cell a phucking sensu bean to fight gohan. He wanted to fight Vegeta again in the saiyan saga (I quote) on Earth. He let Frieza power up to his maximum before beating him. And the thing is, HE wasn't raised in saiyan culture like Vegeta. Vegeta had his whole life of thinking a certain way to change, not to mention unresolved rage from a life of being under Frieza's thumb. Old habits die hard and a lifetime of habits die harder.

Originally posted by JayDaDon
The thing about Vegeta is...he's not a human being or a namekian. He's a saiyan and what they do for power and the thrill of a good fight makes literally no sense where the ones they care about come in. Goku is a victim to that saiyan nature time and time and time again. He endangered everyone on Earth by giving Cell a phucking sensu bean to fight gohan. He wanted to fight Vegeta again in the saiyan saga (I quote) on Earth. He let Frieza power up to his maximum before beating him. And the thing is, HE wasn't raised in saiyan culture like Vegeta. Vegeta had his whole life of thinking a certain way to change, not to mention unresolved rage from a life of being under Frieza's thumb. Old habits die hard and a lifetime of habits die harder.

That's all true in a sense, and that's one of the reason I don't consider Goku a hero in the sense of being a Hero.

He'll defend others because half the time the villains are looking for him and he loves a good fight.

The reason you mentioned aboved is the reason in my opinion makes Piccolo such a well develop character.

After he became good, he never once jeopardize the world for his selfish pride. Piccolo was always the voice of reason that went even farther than Goku in protecting the Earth.

Case in point, Goku wasn't going to tell the z Fighters about the Androids showing up if not for Piccolo super hearing.

If he had not told them, the Z fighters would have died in less than second against the Androids.

At the end of the day, Piccolo's race has there own planet, he could always say screw the Earth and go to new Namek, but he cares enough to always be the voice of reason when the main character is just a hot headed Buffon that would willing abandoned his wife and kids just for. Fight.

I actually prefer Piccolo as a character to Vegeta as well. He's just a badass who uses every skill he's got to it's maximum. But I understand why Vegeta is the way he is and it makes sense.